Trusting God with Relationships, Part 4
by
Suzanne Hadley
on Oct 26, 2007 at 8:59 AM
I often notice people becoming uptight when we begin discussing the issue of trusting God with relationships. This is because they equate trust in God with passivity. But since when did "trusting God" mean "do nothing?" We're all rather attached to eating, right? But do we sit at home waiting for meals to come to us? No, we work to purchase food. Similarly, if you want the job, you apply for the job. If you want to get involved in your church, you show up at the small group. And if you want to get married, you take initiative with members of the opposite sex by building healthy relationships with them and either pursuing or being open to pursuit.
This doesn't mean just go out and pursue anyone and everyone. From a female perspective, I can say that this is perhaps one of the most odious patterns we observe in single guys. The guy who is clearly not discerning in his choice of date but employs a shotgun approach. One time I turned down a guy's invite to accompany him to a party because I already had plans. Thirty minutes later he called back and asked my roommate to the same party. I'm sure his intentions were pure, but his actions gave the impression that it mattered little to him which girl he took.
However, if you want to get married and the Lord has clearly (or possibly) put a godly woman in your life, do something about it. My friend Jacob is a missionary in Europe. He met Amber when he first moved there three years ago, and their paths continued to cross. One night a group got together to watch a movie, and Jacob looked at Amber sitting next to him on the couch and thought, Why have I never considered her? Wow. She’s a godly woman. They began dating and last month he proposed to her during a team trip to Paris. They'll marry in January.
Women often feel they are completely powerless. But they may not realize that their negative perceptions of the guys who are not asking them out may be keeping those very guys away. One male friend described this attitude as "poison." I had to confront this attitude in myself several years ago:
My mom recently asked, "So what are you looking for in a guy these days?"
My reply was, "I'm not sure, but I know what I'm not looking for." This statement reveals a critical attitude that on further consideration I believe is unbecoming of a Christian woman. Regardless of whether these men are potential mates, I should be considering how I can spur them on to love and good deeds (Hebrews 10:24). As I allow God to replace judgment and criticism with openness and love, I will be nurturing characteristics valuable in a marriage relationship.
Women, do your very best to be receptive to every guy who shows interest. It doesn't mean you have to say yes to every date. It does mean that you treat men with respect and choose to look for the best in them. It may also mean being open beyond your comfort zone. I'm not talking undisciplined vulnerability here. I'm suggesting Christian women not rely on worldly dating games, such as playing "hard to get." Certainly you will make yourself unattractive if you throw yourself at the guy, but staunchly refusing to ever reciprocate signs of interest may discourage him. These tendencies are often based in pride: It's his job to pursue ME. I deserve to be pursued. What you mean is "I deserve to be pursued in the way I THINK a man should pursue me."
A lot of healing needs to take place between the sexes. I will address this more in my next blog. We should be the aroma of Christ to one another. Trusting God with relationships does not mean sitting at home and never interacting with the opposite sex. It means deliberately walking the straight path, keeping your eyes open to the possibilities.
1. Adam Sloope had the following to say on Oct 26 at 9:15 AM:
It is amazing to read this article and know a Christian woman wrote it. It's great to see no walls up in this blog. I recently wrote in my own personal blog that if each person involved in a dating relationship would enter it with humility and honesty, things would work out. I think both sides, mostly mine (the guys) beocme prideful and think we deserve something. But the reality is just that, we don't deserve anything and God calls us to humility. I think men and women alike should learn how to not take the whole dating process personally, but look at is an organiz expression of what God gave us the desire to do, find a companion, a help mate if you would. There is nothing wrong with dating, like so mnay college and single ministries have been brain washed to think. Great post!
2. Tami had the following to say on Oct 26 at 9:25 AM:
Thanks, Suzanne. This was really encouraging! This especially:
"Certainly you will make yourself unattractive if you throw yourself at the guy, but staunchly refusing to ever reciprocate signs of interest may discourage him."
I think this message gets lost in some of the Christian courting/dating etc. literature. Maybe it's just me, but I read a couple of Elisabeth Elliot's books in college/postcollege, and I got the exact opposite message - to the point where I've (at certain times in the past) thought that showing ANY sign of interest prior to a guy's "statement of intent for courtship" was somehow ungodly, or destined to get me in a heap of trouble for not waiting on the Lord. Meanwhile, all the other girls were chasing after guys, and getting them. So I appreciate hearing this from you.
I'm not one to chase, but I guess good guys like to hear that women appreciate them once in a while? Who knew? ;) j/k
3. tired,lonely twentysomething woman had the following to say on Oct 26 at 9:53 AM:
Dear Suzanne,
as much as I appreciate that post, how do I REALLY go about doing that? I'm not going to activities and going to church to pursue a relationship. I am keeping my eyes open to possibilities, but how do you continue this pattern when all you see around you is so much immaturity? I go to a church with a lot of young adults. Many early to late twentysomethings still act like they're still in college, and some even still have the "big man on campus" mentality when it comes to dating. I could give you a list of qualities in the kind of man I would choose to marry, and it's not based on my detractions about guys. It's based on issues of character, growth, and direction.
At this point I'm wondering if maybe I'm supposed to be single...
4. Tami had the following to say on Oct 26 at 12:00 PM:
TLTW, my suggestion is to pray for the young men in the church, that they grow in the Lord, if you aren't already.
I could've written your post a year or two ago. Since I started praying for the men in my church to grow in the Lord, I've seen awesome growth in their lives. Is God working because of my prayers? Or has He just given me eyes to see what He is doing? Yes.
A note of (I hope) encouragement to you: It has taken considerable "reconstructive soul work" (i.e. time in prayer and the Word) and faith on my part to recognize that God sees me. He knows my heart, and knows that I am doing my best to seek Him and obey Him. I say this because I know it's easy to *not* recognize that when you *feel like* He is passing you over. But He is NOT. Don't fall for that lie.
5. Kyu had the following to say on Oct 26 at 12:39 PM:
What about for youth group kids? What type of message should we be sending to them? I'd like to get people's opinions on this based on their own experiences. (ie, did your youth pastor tell you not to date in high school? Or did they never discuss this topic at all?)
[I believe that if you're not ready to marry, then you're not ready to date; and we should make this clear to them now. But does anyone disagree by thinking that it's not our business as youth leaders and teachers to teach them this?]
6. NeedACatchyName had the following to say on Oct 26 at 12:40 PM:
This is really an awesome post Suzanne. It's great to see a post on Boundless that call both genders to examine themselves, their motives, and their approaches to dating, instead of pointing fingers and blaming other people on the ills that have infected Christian dating.
Oh, and as a guy, I can say that this comment by Tami:
"I'm not one to chase, but I guess good guys like to hear that women appreciate them once in a while? Who knew? ;) j/k"
is 100% correct. While girls shouldn't have to "chase" or "pursue" guys, when a girl is completely cold or trying not to show any interest at all in a guy who might be pursuing, most guys just interpret this as a sign that the girl just isn't interested and therefore there is no real point in pursuing her. Again, that doesn't mean that you should pursue guys or ask them out, but it does mean that you can show a little interest back when a guy shows interest in you.
7. k. had the following to say on Oct 26 at 12:51 PM:
Tired & Lonely -- Hmm, you might consider a different church. If your church only has 1) immature men or 2) older men with "lust in their eyes," as you mentioned in another post, then something seems off. If this turns into a recurring pattern no matter what church you're at, then it might be time to reevaluate things.
On a side topic, I appreciate Suzanne's perspective. Personally, I think women take this "let him be the pursuer" stuff too seriously sometimes. If you're interested in someone, be a bit flirty (if flirty is your style), or reciprocate signs of interest, or just start a conversation. Signaling interest in someone is not the same thing as chasing them down, tackling them, and shrieking, "Marry me!"
8. Ben had the following to say on Oct 26 at 1:27 PM:
"Certainly you will make yourself unattractive if you throw yourself at the guy, but staunchly refusing to ever reciprocate signs of interest may discourage him."
This is so true, at least from this man's perspective. God designed men to pursue, and we are thrilled to do so, and God designed women to respond. The response helps drive and fuel the pursuit. If a man's every attempt at pursuit is met with seeming disinterest or the "hard-to-get" attitude, what motive is there to keep pursuing? My married friends all say the same thing in this regard. The man is to engage and the woman is to respond and that is what makes dating and marriage beautiful.
9. Carrie had the following to say on Oct 26 at 2:30 PM:
Tired, lonely -- in several of your recent posts I'm hearing some of the thoughts I have often.
I'm just going to respond to your last sentence "At this point I'm wondering if maybe I'm supposed to be single".
My advice is: Yes, if you are not married, then you are single. You are single until you say "I do" and kiss. I'm sensing that you think God is holding out on you (as I tend to think from time to time). As I learn more and more how to be a good friend in general, I can tell you that relationships can get very sticky. Often, we long for that emotional high that a relationship with the opposite gender can bring. I am very guilty of this. I keep learning that I need to put the other person's needs ahead of my own. When I see how much dying to self is required, I often want to crawl into my little corner and hide. When a relationship happens, it'll be good. Just be patient. God is still good.
10. Childless single woman had the following to say on Oct 26 at 3:42 PM:
Carrie - Tired, lonely etc's comment was "At this point I'm wondering if maybe I'm supposed to be single..."
I think the point you missed was the "supposed to be" bit.
But to address the main point, let's imagine for a moment that the comment was about sickness rather than singleness. If a person is sick, should they ask whether maybe they are "supposed" to be sick? Or do they pray (and seek prayer from others) for healing and also make an appointment to see a doctor? (Being a co-worker with God in other words.)
Just because a woman is single does not mean a) she is "supposed to be single", nor does it mean b) she needs to be patient and wait for the Lord to bring her husband to her. (And btw, I don't think it is just a case of longing for the "emotional high that a relationship with the opposite gender can bring". We are hardwired for marriage, with very few exceptions!)
In my opinion we are getting all over-spiritual and muddled because of two main issues that the contemporary church is dealing (or not dealing) with:
1) The lack of men in church circles, which has wide-ranging implications even for the single men in the church, not just the single women (and the Body as a whole, and our ability to impact our culture).
2) The very new teaching of the "gift of singleness" and all the other modern spin-offs (ie. waiting on the Lord for a spouse, Jesus is all you need etc)
We really have got ourselves in a muddle and are trying to explain it away with holy-sounding gobbledygook (words with "the appearance of wisdom" as the Bible seems to me to label this type of thing) that makes it seem like all this singleness and barrenness amongst Christian women is very pleasing to God and exactly how He wants it to be!
We need to outreach to men as a matter of absolute priority, stop making excuses for the resulting widespread singleness by inventing new doctrines, and encourage the single men in the church to be serious about the Godly pursuit of marriage.
I think then we won't need to worry about "making an idol out of marriage" (another way to make women feel guilty about their desire to be a wife!) or whether God is trying to teach us "patience" (when His very design ie. the biological clock seems to disprove this theory straight out in any case!).
11. BDB had the following to say on Oct 26 at 3:49 PM:
Tami wrote:
>>but I read a couple of Elisabeth Elliot's books in college/postcollege, and I got the exact opposite message ... showing ANY sign of interest prior to a guy's "statement of intent for courtship" was somehow ungodly,<<
Well, keep in mind that the examples in EE's books are real life examples, she didn't make those up. But she did a good job of gathering together 20 different examples of how people met. Only two of them involved the woman showing zero outward interest. In both cases the women had reached a point spiritually where they wanted to be totally obedient to God.
I'll grant you that the only men who will move forward without any visable interest are those who have read stories like that, and/or those who've learned to do what God tells them to do even when it seems preposterous.
See Acts 9:10-19, where God instructed Ananias to go pray for Saul and restore his sight. His first response was, "God, that's crazy." (Loosely translated.) But God explained it to him, and he obeyed.
But not everyone is at that level of spiritual maturity. If you really believe that God is telling you to show no interest, then you better make darn sure you're being obedient in every other area of your life. For example, if God nudges you to go volunteer in a ministry you've never tried before, you better do it; there's a real possibility that God will nudge the guy to volunteer in the same place; and he will be able to observe your character without dating you. I can tell quite a bit more about someone's character in a volunteer situation than I can in a social situation: do they show up consistently, how do they handle things when the plan goes awry, does she treat others with respect, etc.
In fact, here's another piece. In one of the ministries I'm volunteering in, I introduced myself to a woman who I had never seen before. She responded that she had seen me around. This got my attention for two reasons: 1) she noticed me before I noticed her, and 2) I wondered how long she'd been watching me without saying anything - not to mention wondering what I was doing at the time. But since I've volunteered in a bunch of different settings, it could be a dozen different things. I'm volunteering in public after all. I just hope I wasn't doing anything stupid.
12. Y had the following to say on Oct 26 at 3:57 PM:
Suzanne,
Thank you for writing the article. Until recently, I've been really passive in my search for a future life-partner. After my last serious relationship with a fellow sister at church failed, I refused to look at or hope that another lady at church as a potential wife. But at the encouragement of the Pastor and a few brothers in Christ, I started seeing how many great, single and godly ladies there are who are around my age.
I started pursuing one recently, and did the total opposite of how I would normally start a serious relationship with a member of the opposite sex. I came straight out and told her that I was interested, and like her from my observations of her in church group activities, and I asked her out for some activities and fellowship to get to know her better on a personal level.
Things went great, and I started to know this godly and extremely attractive woman, but lately she asked for some time and space alone to sort out her feelings and to seek God in whether to continue the relationship or not. I'm still praying for her every day, and I really hope that she and I can be more than just brothers and sisters or friends in Christ, and I know that God is in control, but I can rest in the thought that I've done my part in telling her what's in my heart.
13. Sandra had the following to say on Oct 26 at 4:44 PM:
BDB,
I am a single with LOTS of time on my hands. You mentioned that you volunteer at a lot of places. What sorts of places do you volunteer at?
I'm just wondering, because I'd also like to help out in my community, but I never hear of any opportunities!
14. Ariana . had the following to say on Oct 26 at 8:06 PM:
The fact that so, so many singles have the same struggle seems significant to me, especially given that many are Christians who are faithful to the Lord.
The best that I have been able to make of it has been to consider marriage a gift, like every other blessing we are given. And not all people are given the same gifts. There are things that I have and am able to enjoy that my fellow believers do not. Also, I have experienced protracted painful periods in my life that others have not. I don't know that singleness is qualitatively different from those other times. We can say, "It is not good for man to be alone," in order to convince ourselves that romantic companionship is a *need* and therefore bolster our hope that God will meet our need. But I don't know if that's the point. Since the Lord does leave many people single for long periods of time, whether they *need* a companion or not, I think that He calls us to genuinely rejoice always and abound in the fruit of the Spirit in every situation and phase of life in which we find ourselves. In order to genuinely rejoice there's a way in which we have to let go of marriage as the answer to our lives.
Marriage is one other way of the Lord manifesting His goodness and love, and one other way for us to participate in His goodness and show forth the fruits of the Spirit. If we are lonely, it's not because we're single--it's because there's a depth of relationship and connectedness missing from our lives (esp. since lots of marrieds are unhappy). Marriage may be the most easily identifiable solution to that lack, but it is by no means the only one.
Finding the alternatives takes work, particularly in our culture. But God is faithful. I've been amazed by the unexpected ways that the Lord has answered prayers in this phase that tends toward loneliness. Finding a good romantic relationship is the most obvious solution to the struggles of a single. But I do think that the Lord would have us look under other rocks and open our minds about how He might answer our prayers, and thus open our hearts to other goods that He has for us, that we can't see because we're so focused on this one.
15. Paul had the following to say on Oct 26 at 10:18 PM:
Tired and lonely,
I've sometimes struggled with the idea (which probably comes from either my weak human nature or the enemy) that God's will could possibly be this oppressive thing that will be exactly opposite my desires for my life (finding a Godly woman to spend my life with being one of them). However, I'm really starting to believe that God doesn't place these things on your heart if He doesn't intend to fulfill them. I'd take an introspective view of things and find out if God is truly calling you to singleness (lack of availiable males would not count). If not, then do what you can, pray, trust, and then don't worry... and also, don't turn down any social occasions from good people! :)
16. BDB had the following to say on Oct 26 at 10:28 PM:
Sandra wrote:
>>What sorts of places do you volunteer at? <<
Anyplace a girl invites me to volunteer...(just kidding!)
In college I was in a service club. One of the freshmen said she was a Special Olympics volunteer in high school and wanted to continue, but didn't have a car. So I drove her and her two friends. For three years, once a month. They have a very well-structured program for new volunteers. It was great!
Since college there've been a few community things. But lots of things at church: Union Rescue Mission, for a couple of years my church had a monthly park feeding, the food warehouse, children's ministry (teaching 3rd grade Sunday School), cleaning up after memorial services, a couple of stints on the church's strategic planning committee, my small group sponsored a couple of families over the holidays. It's a big church, there's a ton of places to volunteer.
17. R had the following to say on Oct 27 at 1:14 AM:
Sandra,
You seem to be interested in volunteering in your community. If you don't hear of specific opportunities, I bet most places would be open to you if you sought them out and asked them if they had opportunities...anyway here are a few ideas:
*nursing home or rehabilitation center: visiting with residents one-on-one or getting a group together to do an activity (ie. Bingo) or a church service, cleaning
*gospel mission/homeless shelter -- serve a meal, help with a youth program, help with a church service, cleaning
*help with an athletic event that raises money for a good cause
*volunteer to serve refreshments at a rest stop
*help clean up a park/beach, etc.
*help at a blood center
*teach ESL or befriend international students - perhaps a local church or library has a "Talk Time" you could join
The possibilities are endless...Have fun!
18. KJ had the following to say on Oct 27 at 9:17 AM:
Kyu,
Interesting you should bring up the point about high schoolers...when I was a senior my pastor literally banned all dating from the youth group. (He was a staunch believer in courtship and the notion that one should never have a romantic interest in someone that he/she was not married to, justifying this by saying that it would be sinful to have romantic interest in someone who was already married to someone else.) When I was a freshman in college the book "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" hit the shelves and it seemed like I was surrounded with girls who had spurned dating and relationships and were making it clear that they had not come to a Christian college to fish for husbands. So I think the whole notion of courtship and kissing dating goodbye got twisted to the point where marriage was the enemy. And for some, dating is the enemy - for a ninth grader, for example, for whom marriage is undeniably years away, wasting time getting one's heart broken in relationship after relationship is stupid. But it has definitely gotten out of balance in a lot of Christian circles.
19. Tami had the following to say on Oct 27 at 4:07 PM:
The other extreme in youth groups is when *all they talk about* is sex and dating, becoming as obsessed with the topics as the culture. That tweaks kids, too, and can make the ones who aren't dating feel like outsiders in the very place they've gone to find Christian love, support, and socialization.
20. Erica had the following to say on Oct 27 at 11:31 PM:
Ariana,
Beautiful post. I agree with you in that marriage is one of God's ways of blessing His children--but that there are also many, many other ways He may choose to bless us. (It's also important to note that not all married people feel very blessed in their situation). For a long time I struggled with being single primarily because a) I was an idealist and a romantic and b) much church teaching and/or my own misunderstandings had led me to believe that my singleness was my own fault--I hadn't been good enough, or acted the right way, to deserve a significant other. Given that I grew up trying to be the "golden girl" (first-child syndrome, I guess), this was painful to the point of being intolerable to me. I chastised myself continually. I grew bitter and angry at God; I hated myself and resented Him because I couldn't, couldn't be good enough to earn myself a man. Yikes.
I think two things are important to recognize: first, that God blesses WHOM He chooses, regardless of actions. (That said, disobedience and sin are likely to have negative consequences, whereas often--but not always--obedience does not, but rather brings wonderful reward.) Second, that God blesses HOW He chooses. This may sometimes fall in line with our desires. It may, sometimes, not. We need to be careful to continue to keep our eyes open and praise God for the blessings He does give us--it's got to hurt Him when we don't rejoice and show gratitude for His expressions of love for us! And yet at the same time we can continue to bring our requests to Him, as well, trusting that He does what is best and yet also knowing that He hears and cares for the desires of our hearts.
One of the things we MUST remember, though, is that we don't deserve any of our blessings. Our joy comes not in having what we want but in participating in a trusting, loving, intimate relationship with a Heavenly Father who knows and does what is best for all of humankind, even when we can't see it.
I'm NOT good at this--I'll be the first to admit it. :) And it's often hard to see those who seem to be "less good than" or "as good as" me having the things I so dearly want. But what entitles me to any of that? Really? And why, why, why do I not trust that God loves me desperately and knows exactly what He is doing?
I don't think, as others have suggested, that celebrating singleness is misguided. I also don't think desiring marriage is wrong. I do, however, think bitterness and a sense of entitlement is a problem. Sometimes we make this all so complicated. Really, don't we simply need to love our Heavenly Father, do the work He places in front of us, be sensitive to His nudges, and be sure that He is using is--whether single or married--where and how He wants us in order to further His kingdom? How can we possibly state that marriage OR singleness is a more holy or desirable state? Isn't that awfully presumptious? And is it really all that important to the Kingdom in the end? I think it's far more important to question whether the way we choose to spend our time each day is pleasing to God, whether we're acting as a single or married person. We can love and give and serve--or not--either way.
For me, probably the hardest part in all this is the not knowing. I'm a planner. God makes me dependent on Him by messing with my plans. :) But there's a big part of me that wants to know: should I be preparing for a future spouse? Or should I set out to create a life as a single serving God in ways that marrieds may not be able to? Ideally, the "prep" for both of these situations would be the same, but I don't think they can be exactly. Obviously, growing closer in relationship to God is the key factor in both situations. That always needs to be my main motivation. But what about how I choose to spend the rest of my time? I feel like I'm likely to engage in different activities if I expect to remain single forever (or for a long time) than I would if I was pretty sure God had marriage around the corner for me. I'm also likely to view and relate to men slightly differently. Thoughts?
21. Leah had the following to say on Oct 28 at 6:54 AM:
We can certainly be proactive in looking for a partner, all the while trusting God will provide.
It's like saying I trust God to provide for me once I leave uni. Does this mean I don't go job hunting?? Of course not :P
22. Jessica had the following to say on Oct 29 at 12:32 PM:
Sandra -
Hospitals are great places to volunteer. A lot of them encourage volunteering and love having volunteers. I have volunteered for the past 2 summers at a local hospital and the experiences blessed me and enriched my life immensely. I would love to volunteer more when I'm done with college. It's a great way to encourage people and show God's love by just serving others. I've been able to witness to people and encourage them and that just makes me so happy. I didn't meet any single Christian guys while volunteered :),(that wasn't my motivation) but I did meet a lot of very interesting and special people. I think volunteering is a great idea - Go for it!
23. brx had the following to say on Oct 29 at 3:32 PM:
Wow Suzanne! You sound like a gal with a humbly maturing attitude and outlook based on her security in Christ. I'd marry a gal like that! (considering other basic compatibilities also :)
This struck me - you wrote: "I'm sure his intentions were pure, but his actions gave the impression that it mattered little to him which girl he took." This begs the question, if you were really sure about the purity of his intentions, would your train of thought have even gone in this direction? - enough to write about it? (and if you weren't sure, why didn't you just ask? maybe he just wanted to bless a sister with an available party invite) It's a continuing process and no easy thing, but as we find our true sense of security in Christ, I think we tend to be less judgemental and less likely to jump to negative conclusions about people and their motives based on mere appearances of actions - or other ambiguous communications.
It often comes to mind that Jesus said, "stop judging by mere appearances and make a right judgement." It's something I hope is still being changed in me as my mind - my filter, the way I process and think about things, is being renewed by Christ.
God speed to ya! (on this path, I think you'll be married soon :)
24. Alison had the following to say on Oct 29 at 8:18 PM:
I concur with the comments of Ariana and Erica. From reading the post that this post links too, I think we need to be really careful how we interpret Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart." I think it is saying that if we delight in God he will give us the desires of our heart - because the desires of our heart will be HIM. Not that if we delight in God he will give us whatever else our heart desires, simply because WE think they are good things. It grieves me to say it (I am 34 and single and watching desires of marriage and a large family disappearing fast!) but I don't think we are given a guarantee that patience and trusting means a spouse to everyone who wants one. And that's where we really have to trust that God knows best ...
25. Robert J Espe had the following to say on Oct 30 at 8:55 AM:
What amuses me about this, is that girls are always complaining that the only guys around are immature, but I never quite hear immaturity defined. The other irony is that now that I am married I still get called immature (but I believe more jokingly ;-)
My observation is that the girls doing the complaining are also immature, course that's from a male perspective. Remember that it is your worst faults that bug you most in others. My wife is very mature in some things, not so much in others. I am the same way. No one is completely mature and rational about everything. Being married requires you to just deal with it. Like I said, being married, I can kind of just sit back and smile at all the finger pointing.
26. tired, lonely, twentysomething woman had the following to say on Oct 30 at 1:01 PM:
Dear Mr. Espe:
In response to the comment you made about immaturity, I agree that it occurs on both sides. But Boundless had a great article on what maturity is. To me it is when you:
1)do what you say, say what you mean, and maintain the same character and consistency despite what other people choose to do.
2) by responding to the heart of a matter in relationships instead of reacting to the surface things around it
3.) by making and continuing to make a genuine effort to communicate (with words and actions) in ALL your relationships.
4.)by striving for growth and alignment of your life to God's will for it.
5.) By not hiding from conflict, but facing it head on and using it as a means of growth, instead of seeing it as a threat
6.) By dealing with change flexibly(of course, this is dependent upon whether or not that change goes against the Word of God)
I am not saying I am perfect and that I have nailed all of these qualities down. But I can tell when someone
is making an effort to mature, and I can tell when people don't want to grow and change. In a way, that is my gripe. I have met very few men my age that make a sincere, genuine effort to grow, but would rather continue to have things stay exactly the same in their careers, their relationships, their friendships, and their spiritual lives, fearing to fall flat on their faces in going to the next level.
However, I understand that I cannot force people to grow up and to change their lives. I can love them and pray for their growth and development as believers. The challenge for me lies in walking by faith and believing that I will meet godly, growing, men of character, despite what I experience and see. The one thing that does comfort me is knowing that God is perfect and that he knows what is best for me, and that wholeness and completion doesn't happen with marriage but with a life totally surrended to God's will and lordship.
27. Tami had the following to say on Oct 30 at 6:12 PM:
BDB - way back to your response to me... I totally agree with you; I'm trying very hard to be obedient to God in all things – those spoken with the “still small voice,” and those spelled out using the heavenly 2x4. George Mueller is a great teacher in this regard. :)
It's probably been close to 10 years since I read "Quest for Love," and over 10 since I read "P&P." Back then, those were probably some of the very few "relationship" books around, so it was very easy for me to interpret Elliot's statements as the absolute last word on the subject… especially because pretty much everyone around me regarded her as such. I think she had a lot of great things to say, and certainly I have no qualms with the moral stances she takes. And of course, I wouldn’t deny how God worked in those folks’ lives. I think a lot of my reaction has to do with the way she frames her discussions, which often seemed to me quite absolute on matters that others might deem specific to an individual’s particular situation. (Again, it’s been forever, and I don’t have a copy of either book, so I can’t cite a specific instance. I apologize for any vagueness, as it’s not intentional.)
God is definitely speaking to me about something (er, someone), and He seems to be asking me to hold on and show my interest *more* -- given my background, I’ll confess that this is difficult. It's requiring a lot of faith and prayer on my part to trust God and keep on. Whatever comes of this, I know I need to rest in God.
28. BDB had the following to say on Oct 31 at 12:26 AM:
Tami wrote:
>>I think a lot of my reaction has to do with the way she frames her discussions, <<
I didn't agree at first, either. It was actually reading her regular devotions and spiritual books that I became convinced that she was further down the road to sanctification than I was, and I needed to take a second look at her argument. And it is written as a persuasive argument.
>>God is definitely speaking to me about something (er, someone), and He seems to be asking me to hold on and show my interest *more* <<
Oh, I think that's fine. Frankly, for charismatics who have learned to hear God's voice, the most important part is obedience. Nothing gets my attention so much as the right words spoken at precisely the right (unexpected) moment. You never know when someone else has heard God tell them to "watch for X" and then God tells you to do "X," you unwittingly allow God to open doors.
29. Tami had the following to say on Oct 31 at 2:26 PM:
"And it is written as a persuasive argument."
Hmm, the more I think about it: it probably has a lot to do with the *way* she persuades, rather than the particular point she's making. To me, she can often come across in very absolute terms when I’ve seen God work differently in other faithful believers’ lives.
Also, I have absolutely no problem with the heart of what she's saying; I'm probably as conservative on this stuff as they come. All I know is, I finished her books feeling more nervous than ever before to show *any* interest in a man, thinking anything I did would be unsubmissive and scare him off.
So, additionally, it probably has a lot to do with the experiences I’d had around the time I read those books. When I read “Quest for Love,” I had just been dealing with a guy (a Christian, and generally regarded as a leader in our group) who was flirting with me, telling me I was beautiful, spending hours on the phone and in person with me, and saying stuff like, “you’re the type of woman I’d marry” – acting like he was trying to persuade me to be interested in him, and it worked. Only later, the guy basically cornered me into admitting my growing interest in him, and then told me “Why would you think I was interested in you? You know I’m interested in so-and-so.” No, actually, I didn’t. Why would a guy put on the full-court press, and then try to make you feel like *you* were the one chasing *him*? I didn’t get it, and I still don’t understand why a brother in Christ would do such a thing. In and of itself, that kind of experience tends to make you a little gun-shy and wary.
It was like I was a case study for one of Elliot’s “Don’t show interest” stories. Except that, at the time (and even now, really), I didn’t think I was charging ahead against the leading of God. I genuinely thought the guy was a decent guy, and that he was interested, and so I showed interest in him in a way that was fairly out of character for me (which is to say, actually *showing* interest… not doing anything inappropriate by anyone's standards).
Through the experience, God taught me a lot about myself, and about men, and about discernment. And, in a roundabout way, it taught me about being *REALLY firm* with *non*Christian men. So the experience, while very painful, was fruitful. But… it left me totally anxious about showing interest in a guy, even more so than I was before meeting that particular dude. And that was a lot already. So that's why her cautionary tales affected me the way they did. They were like real-life horror stories.
Sorry for the novel, but I thought it might give you a little insight into where I’m coming from.
All this said, I’d rather have young women read Elizabeth Elliot’s books than some of the other, newer books. In the process of promoting his (sort of provocatively titled) dating book, one guy basically said, Christ didn’t die on the cross just so I would have to “settle” for less than my ideal mate. While I know without a doubt that Christ is actively involved in my life, and He has plans to prosper and not harm me, I think that his death and resurrection was about WAY more than me getting what I think I deserve.
30. BDB had the following to say on Oct 31 at 5:04 PM:
Tami wrote:
>>Only later, the guy basically cornered me into admitting my growing interest in him, and then told me “Why would you think I was interested in you? You know I’m interested in so-and-so.”<<
That sounds really mean. EE has some pretty harsh words for this kind of behavior, too. As I recall, there's a point where she writes, "I'd like to give the man in this situation a good shake, but of course I'm not given the opportunity."
>>But… it left me totally anxious about showing interest in a guy, even more so than I was before meeting that particular dude. <<
There seems to be a lot of that going around. My guess is that it would work out fine with men who've read EE's books or are at least familiar with the theory. On the other hand, decent guys who just work and watch the History Channel will never come across this idea. Unless of course God leads them to the book, which can definitely happen. On the one hand, I wonder how many women might have been interested but were holding back so I assumed they were uninterested. On the other hand, I wasn't praying about it anyway, so I wouldn't have been receptive to God's guidance at the time.
>> one guy basically said, Christ didn’t die on the cross just so I would have to “settle” for less than my ideal mate. <<
Strange...I don't recall a scripture reference for that. Then again, I don't find "chemistry" in my concordance, either. Though giving a nose ring to mark an engagement is mentioned in Gen 24:47.
31. Tami had the following to say on Oct 31 at 9:02 PM:
"...decent guys who just work and watch the History Channel will never come across this idea."
Hmm. Good point. Especially if the guy is on the unsure-about-himself side, he's probably not so tuned in to super subtlety.
"...I don't recall a scripture reference for that. Then again, I don't find 'chemistry' in my concordance, either."
Maybe it's in the NRSV? Or the NLT? j/k
I actually wrote to the radio program the guy appeared on. It's normally a pretty decent show, but I thought it was really irresponsible for them to let that statement slide, because it was so unscriptural. (And the show is pre-taped, so they could have easily edited it out.) They sent me one of those "we got your email and we are forwarding it on to the correct party" emails, but that was it.
That's one thing (among many) that I appreciate about the Boundless folks, incidentally. Each email I've written, they've responded.
32. BDB had the following to say on Nov 1 at 12:03 AM:
Tami wrote:
>>Hmm. Good point. Especially if the guy is on the unsure-about-himself side, he's probably not so tuned in to super subtlety.<<
And at the risk of having my comment bumped, let me explain the huge difference between Christian and non-Christian women. Say I'm at a work event in the evening. After a couple of drinks, even co-workers start to get pretty touchy-feely. I know it's time to leave when someone rubs their breast on my arm.
In comparison, someone at church who is deliberately trying to not show interest will seem completely uninterested. Even more so if they are one of those people who believe women shouldn't return phone calls. Now at least I know to ask what they read - if it's EE then I know what set of rules they're operating under.
And if they read Oprah or Cosmo, I'll assume that if she was interested, she would already have taken the initiative...(SIGH)...or more likely, she's already in one of those relationships that drag on for years and years without going anywhere...
33. Tami had the following to say on Nov 1 at 9:59 AM:
"I know it's time to leave when..."
Yipes.
I work in an industry where women predominate, so that doesn't happen too frequently *to me.* But watch out, decently attractive straight single men! When you're talking a 20-1 or so ratio, "things" "happen".
So, yeah.
"...if they are one of those people who believe women shouldn't return phone calls..."
So maybe I'm not *that* conservative... I do return calls. Or at least, if I really, seriously don't have time to chat, I'll send an email explaining what's going on. That's called "social skills." Or at least an approximation thereof. :)
"...I'll assume that if she was interested, she would already have..."
Hmm.
"...or more likely, she's already in one of those relationships that drag on for years and years without going anywhere..."
Personally, I've observed this often in the passive-guy/aggressive-girl relationships, where the guy's afraid to break it off (or he breaks it off, but keeps coming back for whatever reason) and the girl keeps hoping. And yeah, she was probably the one that initiated the relationship.
So how *do* you show a timid guy you're definitely interested without freaking him out, or "chasing"?
Thanks for reading and answering. Seriously, this is really helpful, and I appreciate your time.
34. BDB had the following to say on Nov 1 at 11:34 AM:
Tami wrote:
>>So maybe I'm not *that* conservative... I do return calls. Or at least, if I really, seriously don't have time to chat, <<
And as I've tried - unsuccessfully - to explain to a couple of women who have demanding jobs, they need to either return calls like they would in a work situation or communicate a good time to call. Particularly if they're working 50+ hours with a varying schedule so there's no way from outside for someone to know WHEN a good time to call is. I know my schedule well enough to identify blocks of time that are flexible enough for phone calls.
>>where the guy's afraid to break it off (or he breaks it off, but keeps coming back for whatever reason) and the girl keeps hoping.<<
Well...this is where Elisabeth Elliot is right about the men initiating thing. The guys hang around as long as it's easy. As soon as the woman expects a commitment, he breaks up with her, so she backs down. I've watched women twist themselves into pretzels trying to be "fun" and dumping the challenging parts of their life onto someone else so their boyfriend thinks they are lower maintenance than they really are. The bottom line of the theory is that when men take the initiative in a relationship, they're far more likely to step up to the plate when the going gets tough.
But that's a basic leadership principle that applies to many situations. There are certain people I work with who regularly take the initiative to try and solve a business or customer problem. They don't just drop it and say, "It's not my job." The ones who take initiative are the ones I promote to more responsibility and more salary.
>>So how *do* you show a timid guy you're definitely interested without freaking him out, or "chasing"? <<
My current answer to that question is to ask him about his work. People show a lot of their character at work. If they're always complaining about how everything is someone else's fault, then they probably don't like to take responsibility. If it sounds boring you've probably got a steady person who keeps his promises. People will usually always be willing to tell you how they got into the business they're in. Helps them relax, too.
Sincere, specific compliments get people's attention, too. I rarely compliment people on their looks until I know them pretty well already. Everyone does that. But few people pay attention to how others do work, if they are a diligent volunteer, etc. If I notice that someone shows up and volunteers above and beyond their commitment, I'm going to comment on it.
I can't prove it yet, but I also think it's important to adapt to someone. I see married couples do this constantly - adapting to each other's strengths and weaknesses. Most single people I know flat-out refuse to adapt to another person. This seems very strange to me; I have to adapt my management style to the different personalities in my employees. It's really the only way to get anything done with harmony.
I need more coffee - sorry if that was too random.
35. ending being a tired, lonely, single, twentysomething woman had the following to say on Nov 1 at 11:35 AM:
You show a timid guy interest by being aware of your body language and what you say to him. You learn about the timid guy and how he relates; partly by observation, partly by conversation. Meaning: no crossed arms, make eye contact, smile, listen attentively, and make an effort to know and learn about the person. Not with the intent to simply screen someone's elligibility, but to genuinely build a relationship with the other person.
36. Tim had the following to say on Nov 1 at 12:11 PM:
I think maybe the most useful action a girl can take if she wants to be approached is she must not herd. When you are with other women you are unapproachable. Risking rejection from one girl is hard enough, but when you approach one of a group of women, even though she may like him, if even one of the others rejects you, it becomes the group consensus.
If you are alone, you will get approached, its why moving or being new to a place gives good chances. Yes, say what you want to justify your grouping; safety etc, but if you aren't willing to trust any men, especially at church, you will get avoided. Beyond that, it doesn't hurt to let it be known that you are available. And above all, do not play hard to get, or any other games at all. Don't act indecisive, just be honest. "I don't know" or "I'm not sure" means the same thing as rejecting. Show enthusiasm. Be honest.
I know it isn't the most useful advice ever, but I have certainly been frustrated many times over by women who make it too difficult to ever be given a chance.
37. Tami had the following to say on Nov 1 at 1:15 PM:
Thanks, all.
Without getting into details, it sounds like in my *current* situation, I am (amazingly) *starting* to do the right things, brought about by being obedient to what God asks me to do. The results are up to Him, as always, so I just need to continue to trust Him (in this, and in everything else). Which is what Suzanne's whole blog-post-series has been about, so that's a nice note for me to end on.
38. debra had the following to say on Dec 18 at 1:57 AM:
can you pray for myself and amember of my church called jeremy i would like t get to know him anmd i think he would like to know me too for smeone reason we don't approach each other. debra