Sad Story
by Steve Watters on 10/27/2007 at 11:00 AM
Sorry to bring you such a downer on the weekend, but did you see this sad story in the Buffalo News by Ken Ilganus?
I am 24, live with my parents, can't find work and am floundering in a sea of debt five figures high. I think of myself as ambitious, independent and hardworking. Now I'm dependent, unemployed and sleeping under the same Super Mario ceiling fan that I did when I was 7.
How did this happen? I did what every upstanding citizen is supposed to do. I went to college. I took out loans so I could enroll at Alfred University, a pricey private school. The next year, I transferred to the more finance-friendly University at Buffalo, where I could commute from home and push carts part-time at Home Depot.
...
Upon graduating, I was helplessly launched headfirst into the "real world," equipped with a degree in history and $32,000 in student loans. Before ricocheting back home, I would learn two important lessons: 1) There are no well-paying — let alone paying — jobs for history majors. 2) The real world is really tough.
Desperate times called for desperate measures, and I had no intention of living in a society that was as unfair as this one. To seek a haven devoid of the ruthless 9-to-5 ebb and flow of contemporary America, I moved to Alaska.
As a liberal arts major, I dreamed of making a profound difference in people's lives. Instead, for a year, I lived in Coldfoot, a town north of the Arctic Circle that resembles a Soviet Gulag camp. My job as a tour guide for visitors temporarily alleviated my money woes because it provided room and board, but when the season ended and I moved back home, I was again confronted with the grim realities of debt.
Desperate, I browsed through insurance and bank job descriptions. I had hit an all-time low. Could I surrender my soul for health coverage and a steady income? Could I sacrifice my ideals by falling into line?
Suddenly, living at home didn't seem nearly as degrading as selling out. But sadly, other graduates don't have any choice but to work for temp agencies and retail stores to eke by.
That's the tragedy of student debt: it doesn't just limit what we do, but who we become. Forget volunteering. Forget traveling. Forget trying to improve your country, or yourself. You've got bills to pay, young man.
...
My loan payments can't wait much longer, and soon I must leave home to find work that doesn't compromise my integrity. Although I sometimes wonder what it would be like if I had declared as an accounting major and got a cushy job punching numbers somewhere, I'll take my history major, my debt and my mom's cooking any day of the week.
I agree that education debt is a real pain and that there probably are creative solutions out there somewhere for how we can more affordably educate the next generation, but I can't help but ask a couple of questions:
Why would Ken think a history major would help him land a job lucrative enough to help him quickly vanquish his five figure school debt?
What makes some of today's grads think it's beneath them to take entry-level jobs to pay their bills?
Do you get the sense that Ken's funk might be the result of something more than education financing?
There's a reason we call the twenties "the hungry years."
1. John D. said the following at 11:17 AM on Oct 27:
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I don't fault young Ken for majoring in history, if that is what interested him. (My own undergrad major was even more obscure and impractical, yet I haven't starved.) I don't believe that the studying the liberal arts is incompatible with being employable.
I don't have much sympathy for him if he is too good for an entry-level job somewhere. I made something like $16,000 in my first year out of college and, yes, I lived with my parents for awhile.
Finally, $32,000 isn't that much debt. I'm sure Ken could work with his lenders to restructure the debt in a way that would allow him to make reasonably small monthly payments commensurate with his meager income. These days the lenders are glad just to be getting paid at all.
2. BDB said the following at 11:32 AM on Oct 27:
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While it's true that liberal arts degrees don't help land that first job, they are definitely valuable to the career. As a political science major, I discovered quickly that it was going to be quite difficult to get a decent job based on my degree. I actually got my first job because of computers skills I developed for my minor.
Fast forward 15 years. The MBA I got later certainly helped me be taken seriously in finance jobs. But the best boss I've ever had majored in English Literature. He understood ideas - and people - and could communicate a vision extremely well. I see now three things I got from my liberal arts degree: 1) Honed the ability to write well; 2) The ability to plow through a huge amount of information in a short time and figure out what is important, and 3) a greater understanding of the ideas that motivate people - the same ideas of family and security have motivated people for generations - centuries even. Pay attention to those, and you can lead people. AKA be a good manager.
I definitely discourage student loan debt. The son of some of my friends had some excellent full-ride scholarship opportunities - in both cases free tuition at a lesser-known private school vs. student loans at a more presigious school. We had some frank discussions about how the small differences in prestige pale in comparison to $60,000+ in student loan debt. If you have debt, you'll be stuck with "golden handcuffs" doing something you hate to pay the bills. Much happier for your life if you don't have that burden.
No one has ever asked my college or graduate school grades, and no one - except other educated people - cares what schools I went to. They only care whether or not I get the job done. Many people don't get things done, and after a while, everyone can tell the difference.
Incidentally, that's one of the main values to going to college: it's a large, complex project that must be finished within a time frame and within specific requirements. Many people drop out because they can't put all the pieces together so they give up. I will always give a college graduate an interview to see what they've learned. In fact, we just hired a (much younger) political science major finishing her MBA at the local state university. I know exactly how to put her skills to use in the organization.
3. Stephen said the following at 11:40 AM on Oct 27:
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His mistake wasn't majoring in history, but taking out lots of loans for a school that isn't that good. It's one thing to go in debt to go to Harvard; it's another to go in debt for Alfred University. If he was a history major from a good school, he could easily be a lawyer, or businessman, or another good career.
4. Esther said the following at 12:30 PM on Oct 27:
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I live in the Buffalo area, and I've seen how hard it is to get jobs. Many of my church friends have degrees in supposedly good areas (teaching, technology), yet still struggle to find employment. They have had to take on less desireable jobs- call centers, construction, secretarial, etc, just to pay their bills. I know it's tough, and I'm proud of them for doing what they have to (even living at home), and still having an servant's attitude toward being involved in church and ministry.
I love this quote from the article, "Desperate times called for desperate measures, and I had no intention of living in a society that was as unfair as this one."
What universe has he been living in? Obviously his university experience didn't prepare him for reality. The real world IS tough. One thing to think about when choosing a major is how it will allow you to support yourself and your family (especially for a guy). Just "following your dreams" and expecting the rest of the world to love and support you in that is foolishness. First learn to be faithful in the basics, then add in the extras like volunteering, traveling, etc.
5. Bethany D. said the following at 1:04 PM on Oct 27:
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Personally, I'm really annoyed by people (inside college and out) who seem to think that college is not the real world. What is it then, fake? It's different, but it is still real and your decisions during that time have real-life consequences. Waiting until after you graduated with your major to actually sit down and look at your employability status is extremely short-sighted, and whining that "The real world is really tough" is not going to magically make things "fair". Pushing carts was good enough for getting him through college; why isn't pushing papers good enough for getting his student loans paid back after college?
6. e said the following at 1:36 PM on Oct 27:
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As a college-graduate with a double-whammy liberal arts degree who graduated with a sizable amount of student loan debt (which I repaid myself as soon as humanly possible), I know first-hand that student loan debt is no picnic, particularly considering most liberal arts graduates start out in less-than-lucrative fields.
I wouldn't change a thing, though, and it was my plan to finish college on the fast-track (less than 4 years) and get to work to build a life for myself. Degrees are needed to get into the door for even some of the most basic entry-level jobs.
One thing about going into debt for an advanced education: however long it takes to pay the money back, it can't be repossessed.
7. Ellie said the following at 1:44 PM on Oct 27:
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Most History majors that actually use their degree later in real life are either people with PhDs who work at universities (where I'm headed) or think tanks or else people who chose the single-subject teaching credential track. The History major has also traditionally been considered a great starting point for law school. Of course these require forethought and (if you go on to prestigious grad or law schools) even more cash, things this guy seems to have been lacking.
8. Jennifer said the following at 2:33 PM on Oct 27:
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I attended a state school and lived at home in order to keep my debt down during college. I was getting a major in something that I knew wouldn't get me a high paying job, but it was something I knew God was calling me to do because it would help when I worked towards getting my Master's in missions. I took a year off before starting seminary (which I begin in January) and have worked a random retail job. It's all in your mindset - my random job is where God has placed me now for a specific reason, and therefore it's not beneath me and I need to make the most of every opportunity. You can learn things no matter where God sends you or what He has you do. Nothing is wasted when He designs it. Be wise and pray about your "decisions" and do it all for His glory...only then will it fall into place. My heart goes out to Ken.
9. DanL said the following at 3:20 PM on Oct 27:
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The following paragraph of his jumped out at me:
“Desperate, I browsed through insurance and bank job descriptions. I had hit an all-time low. Could I surrender my soul for health coverage and a steady income? Could I sacrifice my ideals by falling into line? “
I suspect that the reason he is unemployable, is he views all big corporations as being evil (“surrender my soul”) and refuses to consider many if not most of the potential job available to him.
10. Lauren T. said the following at 3:27 PM on Oct 27:
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It compromises his ideals to live in this society and be an accountant? Yikes!
Ken's problem is he doesn't have the foggiest idea what he's doing on Earth in the first place. If he really wants to have a profound impact on peoples' lives, he's going to have to learn that profound impacts usually start with very small things, not changing the world all in one swipe. He throwing himself a pity party here.
Advice: stop whining, find a job at Taco Ball, and be the very best he can be at whatever he does. Stop thinking he should be somewhere else than where he is or he'll never see the opportunities that present themselves right here and now.
11. Justice said the following at 4:08 PM on Oct 27:
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Ken should get over himself and the "falling in line" stuff. Working for a business if not compromising integrity, but he doesn't sound too smart to begin with to go to a private school the first couple of years on loans.
Bethayny, why get annoyed, it's not the real deal. As for me, I will be going into a job force and competing against people from more prestigious schools including some of the top business school in the country and MBA students, it won't be easy. Good point about the carts though.
Being a history major he could have easily become a teacher in a rough place and got a lot of his school loans paid for. Hate to say it but he sounds like a stuck-up hipster and I have no sympathy for the proud.
12. nikki said the following at 4:16 PM on Oct 27:
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It's always seemed to me that trade schools are a good idea for a lot of people, or at least more people than currently take advantage of them. I think it's really shortsighted and naiive to get your not-practical degree without, at the very least, considering the job market where you plan to live. I don't have much sympathy for the kid. Students need to think much more practically than they do, and parents shouldn't condone such irresponsibility by allowing their kid to live at home if he can't even make a decision like picking out a major that will benefit him someday. It's the real world even when you're still in college, and most parents don't teach their kids to be responsible and incur less debt. And if you're going to spend that much money, you'd better be darn sure it'll pay off - literally. Otherwise, massive loans (32k sure isn't a massive loan, though it's substantial) are a really foolish idea. Just think through this stuff before you pick your useless major, and if you did pick such a major, don't be too proud to work at a survey center to get it paid off.
13. Kit said the following at 4:31 PM on Oct 27:
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I think it may not be as pathetic as it sounds, just realistic. The fact is, the economy is in a slump. I have a master's degree, and I am also having a hard time finding work--any work--and living at home to save money. My degrees are from a liberal arts colleges as well. I think a lot of it is that jobs are becoming so specialized that they require their own training, regardless of prior training. This is not necessaily bad, but it can make it hard to find work out of school. I am just temping...which is fine for now, but I do wonder how to balance the issue sometimes of vocation and reality. I have a friend at my church who has two master's degrees and who desires to be a pastor. He can't find work either. He currently works retail and other odd jobs to pay the bills, and does so with a servant's heart. But once I overheard him talking to a woman in our church, who was asking him why he wasn't pastoring. He said, "I just can't find a job. I know what it is I am called to do." I feel the same situation presents itself to many people looking for work in the current economy. The issue sometimes isn't doing what is "beneath" you, but feeling called to a certain field and frustration when it seems impossible to fulfill something you spent years studying.
On a side note, I support a socialized education system, similar to what exists in England and other places in Europe. It would virtually eliminate student debt, and it would actually improve the job market, as people would be "funneled" into fields that suited their goals and skills. It's a good plan.
14. Anne said the following at 4:42 PM on Oct 27:
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Wow...that is sad.
At moments like these I really really love my father.
He taught me, from my infancy:
1. Life isn't "Fair"
2. You will start at the bottom of the totem pole.
3. If you are really good at stuffing envelopes, someday they will have you write what goes into the envelopes...and so on ( I am a poli sci major)
4. Life still isn't fair.
5. It's not always about what you study in College, but that you finished college that will move your application to the top of the stack.
6. Study what you are passionate about.
7. Don't expect to get your dream job out of college (My father was a Television Production major in College. He wanted to be a camraman, and when he graduated, he sent out 100 resumes and recived 100 rejection letters. He worked some really crummy jobs, in sales, in photography, and then went back to work for the Company he worked for in High School. Now, living in Michigan we are enjoying far more financial security than most others are in our community. He has never ever worked in television production. ever.)
8. Life is not fair.
9. NEVER get a credit card.
10. I will not move in with my parents after college. That is not a personal conviction, that is a house rule.
11. Work hard to earn a living.
And my favorite:
12. If the unemployment rate is 7% (the current rate in Michigan, the highest Unemployment rate nation wide) you have to be less qualified and lazier than 93% of the entire population to be unemployed. Which means that you have no excuse for not fufilling numbers 10 and 11.
13. Life isn't fair, and you will never make it fair.
Ken,
Get off your high horse and join productive society. You'd be suprized how much good you could do for society even working a 9-5 job in corporate society.
I have no sympathy.
15. Tami said the following at 6:01 PM on Oct 27:
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I agree with a lot of what you all have said so far, and will add: the history degree (which I have) teaches skills in critical thinking, research, and writing. Not to mention, you gain an understanding of the past, which can help you make decisions for the future. It's a great foundation for a lot of careers. You just have to plan and think creatively about what you want to do, and learn how to express your value and skill set to potential employers.
And bravo, Justice, on that idea for teaching history in a lower-income area. That's a good way to put idealism to good use.
16. sandra said the following at 6:14 PM on Oct 27:
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I find myself in Ken's situation. Except, unlike him, I am NOT picky about the job I get. I applied for sales, insurance, big-company jobs. So far, none of them hired me. I have a history degree (since May 2007, just graduated), and I am getting despirate and thinking I'm going to be Unemployed FOREVER!!! The only thing I want is some kind of job (doesn't have to be good) that will enable me to live independant from my parents. What should I do??
17. DannieA said the following at 8:07 PM on Oct 27:
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Anne...while I don't agree with #10, I loved your dad's list and if #10 is just a cultural thing then that's all fine and dandy :)
I don't feel sympathy for Ken....you work from the bottom up and you don't get your dream job right out of college.
And news flash....32K is NOT a massive loan.
18. Chris said the following at 8:17 PM on Oct 27:
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Ken can outperform a vast majority of people out there and work his way up in life if he'd just do a few simple things:
1) Show up on time.
2) Do your job.
3) Ask questions. Make suggestions. Find simple ways to make things easier or quicker or better. Implement them on your own.
4) Offer to help people on anything, even if it's something you don't understand. (Be honest, though. Don't do it to brown nose.)
If he did that, at *any* job with a halfway decent manager or boss, he'd soon find himself moving up to more responsibility and more pay. You'd be surprised how *hard* it is to find people who will do this.
Case in point: My cousin just started a job at Home Depot. Nothing fancy, just started at the bottom a few weeks ago. But by just doing her job and helping people, she's already got a couple of bonuses and small promotions. I know that store managers can make good money, especially if they hit sales/profit targets. Who knows. After some time in different departments, maybe she'll be moved into the management track.
I'm sure Ken could do the same if he's a smart guy. Who knows. He might make enough money to one day pursue some personal dream.
I'd like to partially agree with a comment about "socialized" education. I think that all college education should be free, paid for by the government (4 years undergrad and that's it), as long as you're smart enough to get into the college of your choice. )I wouldn't "funnel" people however. Let them choose their majors.) It'd be a major investment that would pay massive dividends.
19. Mike Theemling said the following at 9:27 PM on Oct 27:
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There seems to be a general theme here that Ken's biggest mistake wasn't the college, the major, or the decision to move back with his parents. Rather, it was severely restricting himself from job options upon graduation.
He said he wanted "To seek a haven devoid of the ruthless 9-to-5 ebb and flow of contemporary America..."
To me, that 'ebb and flow' sounds like 99% of all jobs in America. What does he expect? To make his own hours upon his whim? To work only 20 hours per week and make $100K a year?
Also consider his analysis of the situation:
"Forget volunteering. Forget traveling. Forget trying to improve your country, or yourself. You've got bills to pay, young man."
The fact is many people DO volunteer, DO travel, and DO try to improve their country or themselves. But you know what, they also have jobs as well because as he accurately points out, there are bills to pay. These people just know how to apply good time management.
He is correct that real life is hard. It's just too bad he doesn't seem willing to put in some hard work to make it in real life.
Thus I tend to fall into the camp of little sympathy towards this young man. Fortunately, it's not too late for him to do something about.
20. Tami said the following at 9:31 PM on Oct 27:
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Sandra -- temp-to-perm is not the most glamorous route to go, but it works at getting your foot in the door, and each job helps build up your work experience. And hey, look where it got Ryan the Temp. ;)
If you're interested in trying this, I suggest you find out which temp agencies your ideal employers use, and sign up with them. Let the agency know where you're interested in working, and what kind of job you eventually hope to get. It still takes some discernment to figure out exactly which assignments to take, but it's still helpful, especially when you don't have any companies "biting" right now. [And, (I think?? it's been a while) you can still have job apps out to other places at the same time, and if you get hired perm at one of those places, that's great too!]
This is the route I took after college, and I got a permanent job with the company I wanted to work for, in the department I wanted to work in. And, I ended up with an awesome Christian manager. Of course, God was ultimately in control all the way.
21. NeedACatchyName said the following at 10:26 PM on Oct 27:
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I have no sympathy at all for this guy. He needs to get a grip on reality and go get a job. Three things immediately come to mind for this guy:
1) I don't fault him for majoring in history, but he needed to have more of plan for what he was going to do with his degree after college. Regardless of what major you choose, even if it's a very practical degree such as nursing or engineering which lends itself to being used in a specific field that's in high demand, you still need to research potential job opportunities, specialties and salaries before you decide on a major, not after you get out of school. In other words, you should at least have an idea as to what you're going to do with your degree before you pursue it.
2) If you're not employed and you're not still in school, then you should treat looking for work as a full-time job. That means you devote the amount of time you would normally be working searching for prospective jobs, networking, updating resumes, interviewing, and other job search related tasks. That may sound like a lot of time to devote to job hunting tasks, but if you really want a job badly enough, the effort almost always pays off.
3) This line made me furious:
"My loan payments can't wait much longer, and soon I must leave home to find work that doesn't compromise my integrity."
(rant alert) So you're learning that the world doesn't have an obligation to provide you with work that you find self fulfilling and enjoyable? Welcome to the real world. News flash, the world doesn't owe you anything, while you seem to owe quite a few people a lot of money in loan debt. So get a job (any job), regardless of how "self actualizing" or enjoyable it is, and pay that loan debt. If he had said that he couldn't find a job at all then he'd have my sympathy, but this line strongly indicates that he just hasn't found the type of job he wants.
This guy's parent's need to give him a time limit as to how much longer he can expect to live at home, and either kick him out or start charging him rent.
22. Kit said the following at 10:36 PM on Oct 27:
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Chris,
I didn't mean "funnel" in the colleges. I meant "funnel" in different career tracks in high school for the students who didn't pass the exam. Sorry. I should have clarified myself.
23. BDB said the following at 11:33 PM on Oct 27:
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Socialized education, eh?
Consider that all systems ration resources, market systems use price, socialized systems use something else. For example, in theory, the University of California system requires no tuition. A variety of fees and room and board are charged. But the UC system is officially limited to only the top 12.5% of high school students, and most of those don't get in. In countries with government-paid universities, the competition to get in is usually quite fierce. There's also far less economic mobility in most of those countries. Most people can rise no higher than their parents. Some people are fine with that. But many people - including my family - left Europe for the opportunity that America offered. The bottom line is that in a socialized education system, a lot fewer people get into college. Those who can afford to do come to America to go instead.
But trade schools are overlooked by a lot of people who don't have the right skill set for college. Some people can make quite good money working with their hands. If your skills would make you an excellent warehouse supervisor, you'll make more money doing that than being a mediocre/unhappy call center rep.
24. Jo said the following at 2:50 AM on Oct 28:
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Kit, you said: "On a side note, I support a socialized education system, similar to what exists in England and other places in Europe. It would virtually eliminate student debt, and it would actually improve the job market, as people would be "funneled" into fields that suited their goals and skills. It's a good plan."
I agree with you that a socialised system is better, but England isn't a good example. I'm English, and our system has changed considerably (for the worse) over the last decade or so. Education up to age 18 is free, unless you choose to go to a private school. But after that it does get expensive - student debt is FAR from eliminated.
We have a student loans system whereby the government lends funds at a low level of interest, based on parents' income (ie if your parents are well-off, you get less money because they assume your parents will pay the extra towards your needs, and if your parents are poorer, you get more and I think a portin of it is a grant rather than a loan - I'm not sure on that though). Once the student finds work paying above a certain threshold (it used to be £10000 ($20000)), they have to start paying the loan back at a specified repayment rate.
The problem is, student loans don't always (or even usually) cover all the student's expenses, and even when they do, the student will still end up with a fair bit of debt. £10000 isn't uncommon, and for longer degrees like medicine, £20000 would be a conservative estimate.
Since last year, students are now charged 'top-up fees' as well (up to £3000 per year), which are paid upfront by the government and then included in the student's debt. So for a 3 year degree, you're probably now looking at close to £20000 at least.
25. Leah said the following at 6:00 AM on Oct 28:
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I love Australia.
We have what's called HECS-Help (Higher Education Contribution Scheme). Basically, the government pays your tuition fees (in other words, not text books or excursions etc), and then, once you graduate and start working, they take it out of your pay, bit by bit (with your tax). One of my highschool teachers said she hardly even realised, until one day her pay slips started showing a higher amount of money. She wondered why, then realised her HECS was paid off. So no big dramas for us. The only dramas come from
a) people who don't use their money wisely OR
b) courses that have crazy-expensive text books and excursions, and some poor soul can't get Centrelink. (Centrelink is our gov-operated allowances organisation).
Anne, I agree with most of your points. But about the credit card: i wouldn't say "never". I would say, it's ok to get a credit card *if/when you get a steady job and steady income and know you will be able to pay it off*. And put a low limit on it. Also, in regards to the moving in with parents- I already live with my parents :P And I daresay I will for a little while after finishing uni. And when I get a job I imagine I'll be paying board :) So I don't see a problem with living at home. In fact, Mum would probably rather I didn't move out... :P But as Dad says- "once you're out, you're not coming back!"
Esther- tell your technology friends they have to move to the big cities. Tell your teaching friends to come to Australia. No shortage of teaching positions here!
In response to BDB: I understand the "lesser-known private school VS prestigious school", but there are certain things you have to take into account. Some universities are so unknown that an employer will see you got a degree from so-and-so university and kind of go "Uhh... so what? I know nothing about this univeristy, how good it is, and whether they taught you anything decent". It's good to go to a university that has some type of decent reputation, even if it's not "prestigious".
Take my uni for example. I go to James Cook University in Townsville, a smaller, regional university. We only have about 10,000 students on this campus. It is also one of the cheapest universities in the state (possibly the country). However, it is ranked in the top 500 universities in the world. (Only 2 from our state got onto that list. The other one was a private uni, which in Australia, is more prestigious than a government-run uni.) It is also the top marine research university in the country.
The thing is, while it's a smaller, less 'prestigious' university, it is still a very good one and well known in the research and academic world- and cheap!
So you need to weigh up the different aspects that come with different unis. You can't just say it's prestige + high debt VS unknown + low debt.
Anyway. Oh, and I agree- 35k is not a big debt AT ALL. I'm very lucky with my situation- my parents have paid for most of my 20k degree (I have to pay them back!!), but the most expensive degree in Queensland is a medical degree from Bond University (a private university) which costs in the vicinity of 230k. (Which is ridiculous, a medicine degree from JCU will cost you 50k). I don't see why he's whinging over a 32k debt. Or a 9-5 job.
26. Mariana said the following at 6:22 AM on Oct 28:
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When will people learn that any job that pays your bills is not beneath you? I can't see the problem with taking an entry level job either... he's fresh out of college, with no experience, what was he expecting? A 6-figure job?
My husband is an engineer, and when he graduated he took a job with a maintenance company that required him to be on-call 24h a day. They did maintenance in a sewage treatment plant, and many nights he came home smelling like... well... sewage. It was not pleasant, but it was the best job he got right out of college. He certanly didn't feel it was beneath him...
27. Anna said the following at 12:29 PM on Oct 28:
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I'm sure it's got to be difficult for people like Ken. Not because it's *that* hard to find a job (recently graduated history major with 5-figure debt speaking here), but because it sounds like he never really learned the basics of life as unfair and requiring a lot of hard work, e.g. Anne's excellent list.
If you have the luxury of living with your parents, get a Walmart job and spend your extra time volunteering to get job experience. Apply to jobs you wouldn't normally consider. My husband and I by "chance" (that would be God...) saw a posting for teaching jobs overseas. Neither of us were experienced or certified, but we still landed the jobs, based on volunteering and "having a degree in something", and now are making enough to pay back loans, live comfortably, *and* see a new part of the world, while meeting an amazing Christian body at our local church.
History majors: it can be done. Just think outside the box. (Your major was supposed to teach you that, right?)
28. Claire said the following at 5:12 PM on Oct 28:
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I graduated in 2005. Thankfully, I have no debt from school, but it took me a year and a half to find a job where I could actually buy enough groceries to eat every day. My parents let me live in their house because, while I was working 12 hrs a day, I was still unable to make enough to support myself with all of the bills. Yes, the real world piles bill after bill on top of you. Car payment, gas money, insurance, cell phone (needed for work), etc. Plus, I had some medical issues I had to pay for (and yes, I was paying for them). My advice for recent graduates is:
1) Pray about it. I made this mistake of "doing it on my own" for a while. The Lord is faithful, He will supply every need.
2) Don't be discouraged about the difficulty of the search, the market is low.
3) Don't think a job is "beneath" you or isn't paying enough, take it, at least you'll have 7.50$ more than you did an hour ago.
4) If your parents allow it, move back in (a)with every intention of moving out when you have a foundation that can support you and (b) with a plan not to stay with your parents forever.
5) Keep sending out resumes; tons!!! Even if you think "no way," also, TALK TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW. Ask them if their employee is hiring, ask your family members, bible study leader, sunday school teacher, etc. Every job I've actually gotten is because I talked to someone, who talked to someone...
6) If you have loan debt, Have a plan to get it paid off. Don't just hope it will go away. Intrest accrues...
7)Begin an IRA and Savings account. Even if you can only put 5$ in it, one day you'll have a job that pays more, but you'll already have that started.
I will get off my soap box now. Hope this helps.
29. Adam T. said the following at 7:29 PM on Oct 28:
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I don't know.
$32000 sounds like a heckuvalot to me.
How much is a year's tuition in the US? In Canada, my tuition was about $9000-10000 a year all told, and I graduated with no debt because I worked hard at a decent job (I did live at home but my parents didn't contribute a cent to my tuition).
I'm not trying to belittle anyone, but I genuinely don't understand why everyone (who lives at home during college) can't do what I did...? Is it simply a lot more expensive in the US?
30. Adam T. said the following at 7:35 PM on Oct 28:
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I just read the article.
"Desperate, I browsed through insurance and bank job descriptions. I had hit an all-time low. Could I surrender my soul for health coverage and a steady income? Could I sacrifice my ideals by falling into line?
Suddenly, living at home didn’t seem nearly as degrading as selling out...
soon I must leave home to find work that doesn’t compromise my integrity. Although I sometimes wonder what it would be like if I had declared as an accounting major and got a cushy job punching numbers somewhere, I’ll take my history major, my debt and my mom’s cooking any day of the week."
For crying out loud! Cry me a river, loser.
Again, I don't want to belittle people that genuinely struggle, but this guy brings back memories of people I knew who'd complain about their student debt even as they'd spend $100 on a weekend drinking at the bar.
31. DEH said the following at 8:53 PM on Oct 28:
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Anne,
I'm not sure that I agree with number twelve on your list. Not all unemployed people are unemployed because they are lazy or unqualified. Sometimes, for financial reasons, companies lay people off who are very hard, qualified workers. If the job market is poor, there might not be jobs available for these people who have been laid off, no matter how hard they are willing to work. They may also be very highly qualified for a job that no longer exists. I too live in an area that has a high unemployment rate, and I've seen it happen. Sure, they might be able to get a minimum wage part-time job at a fast food place, but if they have families to support, a minimum wage job is not going to cut it. Calling lazy someone who has faithfully worked for a company for years before getting laid off seems inappropriate to me.
However, such is certainly not the case with Ken and I agree that he really has no excuse for not getting a job. I just think we need to be careful before making sweeping judgments that may not fairly apply to everyone.
Good for your dad for instilling such a good work ethic and realistic view of life in you, though!
32. Joseph said the following at 4:49 AM on Oct 29:
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As I have noticed in the last several years of service the Army's offer to pay college loans is one of the highly lucrative reasons people enlist. Be it the 20-something that is fresh out with 60k in debt upto the 30 something with a doctorate and similar debt.
I think it is Francis Chan church/seminary in Simi Valley Ca that emphasizes seminary without debt. They have also noticed the hindrance debt makes on today's young people especially when it comes to their realistic ability to go do what they studied for or where they feel called to be.
33. OBEWAN said the following at 6:58 AM on Oct 29:
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This guy sounds like he could use some counseling from a real professional. He needs to adjust his worldview and stop making excuses that enable him to hide at home and not work. Face it. We all are forced to compromise when we join productive society. I would rather not pay taxes when they are used to fund free abortions or pay for an unjust war in Iraq, but reality dictates that I have to. The only other option is life on the streets as a homeless person if you want to continue that line of "sick" reasoning.
34. Adam Sloope said the following at 7:11 AM on Oct 29:
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Should we major in something with a motive of making money? I started college with these intentions and eventually decided to stop going. I am now back in school studying something because I yearn for it, i love what I am studying and eventually I know that this degree will earn me limited income if any. I am not in school for a degree, it just happenss to be a by product of the sweat and tears put into the studying. So I say "KUDOS KEN!" Follow your heart, study what you love, seek the kingdom first, and everything else will happen. Post college is a hard time of life, because we have to transition into the amn or woman we will be for the rest of our lives, why not do it doing something you love? I'd rather make limited money and love what i do, than be on top of Corp America wishing to jump out of my office window.
35. Erin said the following at 8:10 AM on Oct 29:
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i have my degree in an engineering field, so there were many opportunities for me, fortunately.
i wonder..with a history degree, why not also get a teaching certificate? i don't know of a more "legitimate" job than helping to teach our young people.
36. Leah said the following at 9:07 AM on Oct 29:
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Adam Sloope- I think most people's issue with Ken is not that he chose to study something he liked but would pay low, but that he refuses to apply for jobs that are below him. An entry-level graduate should not consider any job below him. He really does need to get over it, get a job, get the experience, then maybe one day he can get his dream job.
37. BDB said the following at 11:28 AM on Oct 29:
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Leah wrote:
>>So you need to weigh up the different aspects that come with different unis. You can't just say it's prestige + high debt VS unknown + low debt.<<
Well, this make make more sense to the Americans. In the case of law schools, my friend's choices were UCLA at full price, or Pepperdine for free. He'd graduate UCLA with $60,000 in debt at least. He wanted to go into Real Estate law, and there's no significant prestige advantage to UCLA in that field.
In the U.S. there are tons of little private liberal-arts colleges that, in my opinion, provide a much better quality graduate education. Often they provide lots of scholarships, too. It is those students who end up doing graduate work at Harvard, Stanford, etc., because they learn enough as undergraduates to make them quite competitive on the graduate-entrance exams.
Ultimately a school should be chosen based on the specific field of study. In my case, I went to graduate school at Claremont, which is where God led me. After I was there, I discovered that I could fill my entire degree program with Christian professors for pretty much every class - allowing me to build a Christian education at a secular school. At most public universities, it's not possible to get to know your professors well enough to do that.
But I ended up $120,000 in debt doing it, and I don't recommend that route. Took a few years to get that paid off. Very unpleasant to have what amounts to two rent payments at the same time. It really constrains your choices after graduation.
(I only realized after I had paid them off that I never prayed about whether to do it with loans or ask God to provide funding another way. Oops.)
38. Kit said the following at 11:29 AM on Oct 29:
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BDB said, "The bottom line is that in a socialized education system, a lot fewer people get into college."
Yes, this is true with socialized education. But this is part of my point. What is the purpose of a college, graduate, and post-graduate education? To spend four years in college, learning how to drink and living with your friends in apartment situations that all-too-closely resemble a shadowy Jennifer Aniston "Friends" world? *Just* to get a degree, any degree, so that you can say you have one, and then graduate with mountains of debt and no real idea of what you want to do with your life?
The point of a college, graduate, or post-graduate education in a specific major is to prepare for a career in or directly related to the field of study. It is not to drink, increase your Facebook popularity, or meet your future spouse. I think that many people would have less debt if they went to college with these goals in mind or didn't go without them. There are many technical schools and venues that can be pursued if you don't think your skills are in an academic field.
I recently heard a friend say to her daughter about a potential field of study, "Do you enjoy that class?" Her daughter replied, "Mom, do I enjoy any classes?". And yet, this student is searching for scholarships to attend university and major in this less-than ideal field (for her). Perhaps, if she doesn't ENJOY any coursework, academic pursuits are not up her alley. She should search for something she truly wants to do by pursuing internships in high school. Many students shoulder debt just to "go" to college, even when it may not be what they desire or even enjoy doing.
Our culture (American) looks down on technical and vocational school as 'less worthy.' This should not be the case. People are gifted to do different things, and no one should feel as though they should "have" to go if they don't want to. There is certainly something to be said for the less competitive system in America, but should not be blindly pursued just because it is expected.
39. BDB said the following at 11:50 AM on Oct 29:
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Two other points...
I worked a dozen different jobs in college, sometimes three at a time. Everything from office work to teaching computers to elementary students to set up and tear down on the campus convention center to driving busses. Ken needs to work.
My father always told me the story of when he graduated from college, my grandfather told him that "from now on, when you come to my home, you're a guest." After college my dad suggested I could move back home if I wanted to, and I reminded him of that. I only visit them as a guest now. The pressure of paying rent is a good way to learn to submit to authority in the workplace; you can't walk away every time you don't get what you want.
40. David said the following at 12:02 PM on Oct 29:
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"Although I sometimes wonder what it would be like if I had declared as an accounting major and got a cushy job punching numbers somewhere, I'll take my history major, my debt and my mom's cooking any day of the week."
What's with the rap on accountants? I have an accounting degree and am currently working as an accountant, and I love it! I did not choose accounting because it was safe, but because I found it enjoyable. Oh, and not all accounting majors get a great job right away either. My first job, washing dishes at a meat market. So, the writer of this article should get a job washing dishes or delivering pizza's and quit his woe is me attitude. Once he has some work experiance, then maybe someone will hire him at a job that won't hurt his big ego. Student loans are no fun, but it shouldn't stop you from living life.
41. Adam Sloope said the following at 12:10 PM on Oct 29:
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Leah, I would agree with that, no one is below any job, we should all "work" with the biblical principle that it is not man that we work for, but God and do everythig to our greatest abilities. Ken should go out and get an entry level job though. I just think some of the emphasis is put on the fact that his degree isn't a well paying one, which really doesn't matter...Money will all rot away someday anyways, I say let God provide for you and enjoy what He gives you (all while being a good steward). The frustrating thing about post collge is that for many students they come out of college with tons of knowledge and then are told they don't have experience so have to "regress (in their mind)" to an entry level position.
42. JB said the following at 12:24 PM on Oct 29:
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I'm on Ken's side. He's young, he doesn't have that much debt. Why not try to find something new and different instead of a soul-crushing 9-5 office job? Sure, he might eventually find that he needs to just get a job, any job, to meet his financial obligations, but why surrender without a fight? He sounds pretty realistic about his chances in his article, but he should be congratulated for trying to find something he loves to do before he settles on something easier.
43. Loris said the following at 2:18 PM on Oct 29:
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Ken is lucky his parents are allowing him to stay at home. I knew if I'd moved back home after college, I would have to pay my parents market-value rent to live in my room because they couldn't afford to support me any longer.
44. JB said the following at 2:49 PM on Oct 29:
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Kit,
You said, "The point of a college, graduate, or post-graduate education in a specific major is to prepare for a career in or directly related to the field of study."
I would argue that the point of education is to broaden your mind, to make you a better citizen, to enable you to engage fully in the cultural, artistic, scientific, and political life of our society. Education is an end in itself, not a means to achieve some economic good.
45. Kellie said the following at 5:55 PM on Oct 29:
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That's why I went into a field where I had a well-paying job lined up before I graduated. It can be done (yes, with a BS).
46. Kelly said the following at 6:30 PM on Oct 29:
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This concept of 'education' is really quite ludicrous when I look at how much debt people get into, for 4 years of 'putting life on hold'.
Sure, if you have a passion for something then by all means study it. But why not later in life? Why does everyone need a university education?
I studied in Australia, where the government paid for my education and I repaid them over the next several years. If I never worked, the debt didn't have to be paid off. There were incentives for paying it off early. Yes, there was a lot of competition for places in university, as it was merit-based rather than $-based, but that meant that you got students who WANTED to be there, who WANTED to learn, instead of those who were studying because it was the "thing to do".
My American friends have often commented that the Australian education is less well-rounded as a result (we choose specialised degrees from the start). But again, if I wanted to learn history, I could study that in my own time while excelling in the vocation I trained in. I don't need college to teach me math or journalism skills that I'll never use. That's just an inefficient use of time and funds.
47. florida_grl said the following at 1:26 AM on Oct 30:
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BDB, you're the only other MBA around here? :) You're right. At the end of the day they don't care about your grades, or what school you went to. They care that you simply do what they hired you for.
The requirements for the life you want:
1. Hard work
2. Dedication
3. Hard work and a good attitude.
and the main one: remember God in every decision.
Hard work always pays off. I worked three and five jobs while doing my MBA. When I cleaned houses for extra income, I hated it...so to forget about the pain of doing it I would put loud music on. (I always required that people would not be home when I cleaned their homes.) And I was babysitting in the evenings I didn't have classes. I was in the library till 1 am at times, getting home at 2 so I can start the next day. Both my undergrad and grad degree was paid for by the school (I worked year-round for them, part time).
In the meantime, while on campus, I also built relationships with people I admired: my professors, people I met randomly and admired, etc. I asked questions. I asked for help. (People also help people who work hard.) I asked advice. (People love to talk about what and how they got to where they are.) So I asked the people I admired how they got there, and I took notes. I also had volunteered everywhere else like the graduate school committee, etc. (Those were great references). I have so blessed by the people that came into my life just to take me to the next step (thousands of stories about that). God placed them there for a reason and a season.
I was almost 24 when I graduated, which was two yrs. ago. I took an internship that paid hardly nothing. The internship turned into a full-time dream job. I had no idea.
The co. hired me not because I was so excellent in my field - marketing. But because they saw on my resume that I was hard working and I was willing to learn and grow. Plus, they had just tested me for 6 mo.
We're surrounded by this instant mentality. And in the meantime people enter into debt. At some point there's a trade-off though.
I had no life while in college, but I knew someday it will pay off. And believe me. It does now. God has blessed me beyond my wildest dreams. And it's exactly the job I wanted. My hours are flexible. I travel. I learn. It all happened fast mainly because since I was 17 I loved to work and get involved.
I only know the pain, the struggle, and the many times of wanting to give it all up.
Still, God is faithful and the glory goes to Him. Ten years later after moving to US (may I also mention that I came here at 15) all the hard work, the tears, and the pain - 100% WORTH IT.
48. Sheridan said the following at 3:12 AM on Oct 30:
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wow, I see America is as big on Uni as Australia is. I think its a little bizaar to take out 30,000 dollars worth of loans to do a degree that doesn't even guarantee you a job at the end! I have a friend who I love dearly that is doing 'drama' at Uni, and her course costs around $30,000 too.
It blows my mind why she wants to do it that way...there is no way doing a drama course is going to guarantee her a job! most of the actors in Hollywood got there by pure luck! I only know a handfull that have a degree in acting.
In fact most of the richest people in the world never even went to year 11 and 12!
I have no problem with somebody wanting to have a career they love, but I think there are cheaper ways of going about it...aka, if you want to be an artist, start painting/drawing and entering them into contests...it seemed to work for a lot of other people. I know too many people who are at uni without even really wanting to be there...but it's become so much of a status thing they feel 'uneducated' if they don't.
One of my friends is doing Marine Biology, and when I asked her what she hoped to do with that degree she said 'Oh I dunno, its hard to get a job in that kinda industry...I think I'd rather just work in the coffee shop anyway.'
HUH?????
(and I thought to myself...wow what a smart, educated girl...or not)
49. Robert J Espe said the following at 9:07 AM on Oct 30:
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I just thought people might be interested to know that Ken can't teach without about 3 more years of school. Schools don't teach History, they teach Social Studies, and a Social Studies degree is completely different from a History degree. So even though any rational person would assume that a History degree would be good enough, it is against the law to employ him as a public school teacher. One of the many problems with the overspecialization problem we have in this country.
Funny, I've been thinking I'd major in History if I could do it over. I would have had more fun and been done two years ago. And most of the jobs where I live aren't tied to any specific major anyways (only exceptions: teaching, finance, and engineering)
And I don't know why people think that 32,000 isn't a lot of debt, sure lots of people have more, but it cost my wife $330/month when she had only $18,000. Ken probably is already making debt payments large enough to buy a house. That really impacts your budget.
50. Tami said the following at 9:53 AM on Oct 30:
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Robert J Espe -- When I was in college (lo those many years ago ;), that was the exact line of reasoning that went into my choice of major. The top local news stories of the night were things like: COLLEGE GRADUATES ARE NOT GETTING JOBS IN THEIR RELATED FIELDS! STUDENTS IN STATE UNIVERSITIES WAIT IN LINE FOR HOURS TO REGISTER, ONLY TO NOT GET WHAT THEY NEED! (This is when you had to register in person.)
So I figured, if I'm not going to get a job in any related field, I might as well study what interests me. I mean, History is not exactly the proverbial "Underwater Basketweaving"; as has been stated by many people, it has some very real, very applicable skills.
And yes, people would ask my major, and then ask, "So are you going to teach?" Which sort of underscores the myth that History is not good for anything... except teaching people History. :)
51. Kit said the following at 11:24 AM on Oct 30:
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JB--you said, "I would argue that the point of education is to broaden your mind, to make you a better citizen, to enable you to engage fully in the cultural, artistic, scientific, and political life of our society. Education is an end in itself, not a means to achieve some economic good."
I agree with Kelly. Don't go to university if you aren't going to use your training--that's a rather expensive "broadening" experience that can take years to pay off. I have seen way too many students in college who only want to meet a husband (or wife) and think this is the only place to do it, or who have no real idea of what their calling is. If you don't know, take some time to figure it out. You can "broaden" your mind in other ways in the meantime. Many students who have been to school have not spent appropriate time doing this anyway.
They usually read the sparknotes.
52. Esther said the following at 11:32 AM on Oct 30:
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A few additional thoughts:
The school you go to can have a big impact- depending on the field. I attended an Ivy League school, with one of the world's most respected programs in my area of study. I have been recruited for jobs that generally require a masters, yet my bachelors from that program has opened many doors.
Pay your dues: I spent my first year out of college working on a farm. Most of that winter I was pruning apple trees (by myself) 8 hours a day in subzero weather. It wasn't fun (thank goodness for audiobooks on iPod), but I got through it and I have more credibility with growers in my current job because of that experience.
Networking: a second to florida_grl's comment; the contacts you develop in your field are as important as the classes. Sure, it may be more fun to hang out with your friends after class than your advisor or professor, but I recommend going to office hours, and not just when you bomb the test. Build relationships. They probably have connections in that field, and if they know you and know that you're looking for work in that area, they may field some opportunities your way.
Reputation: I think it's been said many times in many ways: There is nothing more important than your good name. If you have a reputation with your family, your friends, your teachers, and your employer as a hard-working, conscientious, and responsible worker, you will never lack for a job.
53. Kathleen said the following at 3:38 PM on Oct 31:
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The reason he doesn't have a job is NOT because he majored in history. There ARE jobs- and some well-paying jobs- for history majors. AND...schools DO teach history. All he'd have to do is go to school for a year to get his teacher's certification, which he would have been better off if he'd just majored in history education.
I'm a history major and have many friends who have graduated with history degrees. None are without jobs unless they're in grad school. And all those who went right into the workforce got jobs that allow them to support themselves and start paying off debt. For me, I plan on going all the way through to a PhD and then teach at the university level. And I'm planning on doing that with little to no debt. It IS possible.
Lots of jobs require just a degree, regardless of what it's in. He really should be able to get a job. There's likely something else going on there that he's not telling or not seeing.
54. BDB said the following at 7:52 PM on Oct 31:
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Kit wrote:
>>The point of a college, graduate, or post-graduate education in a specific major is to prepare for a career in or directly related to the field of study.<<
I agree that graduate and post-graduate education should be tied to career. A good undergraduate education can prepare someone for life, not just work. But that may mean majoring in the classics or humanities. We live in an information-driven world, and those without education are at a severe disadvantage when faced with everything from medical decision-making to decisions about their children. An undergraduate degree teaches people where to go to find answers to problems. Even someone with a degree in history they never use is better prepared to go do research when their spouse is diagnosed with cancer: they know how to use the library. Most high school-only graduates are hopelessly intimidated by such things.
But like I said in a later post, people should avoid debt. This is particularly true for people majoring in the humanities or women who want to be a mom soon after college - and want the flexibility to not work while raising small children.
55. Tami said the following at 9:26 PM on Oct 31:
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A lot of history majors work in libraries; and the history major is great background for library work. If there's one thing we know how to do, it's use the library. ;)
Libraries are great work for moms with school-age kids, as there tend to be a lot of part-time jobs available (and from what it appears, you don't really take your work home with you).
And if you want to go back to school, there's the Masters of Library Science degree, which is a professional degree with a satisfying intellectual side, and it does help you advance your career. The programs are usually pretty flexible, too, as the people in them are typically already employed someplace (and thus don't have the time to devote to a full-time grad program).
56. Michele said the following at 2:37 PM on Nov 1:
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I was a history major, and most of the people in my undergrad classes were planning to "just be a teacher" or to go to law school. Many had plans to enter graduate programs of other kinds, specifically to avoid paying their debt.
I branched out - I spent my undergrad years doing class work, obviously, but I also got involved on campus and made connections in the community that got me a job a few months after I left school.
I have 5 figures of student debt, too, by the way.
Do I think it was worth it? Absolutely. Would I tell others to do it? Probably not - I'd say if you have to get a liberal arts degree, study economics or something, and for goodness' sake do all the internships and apply for all the fellowships.
AND GET INVOLVED.
57. Anne said the following at 10:30 AM on Nov 3:
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DEH,
You are right, I should have been more clear. My father's "list" was directed tward me, and people like me (Ken), not exactly the father of three - five who was just laid off or had a big reduction in his five - six figure salary with car payments, a morgage, and ice time bills.
That is a tough situation and it can happen to anyone, which is why he impressed upon us that Life is not fair. Using two of his brothers, my uncles as examples, he has shared other bits of advise with regard to that situation, and yes, it is different than the aforementioned list.
Thanks for bringing that up, I wouldn't want people to think that I'm assuming everyone who is unemployed is lazy.
58. Christina said the following at 6:40 AM on Nov 6:
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As pathetic as this guy's story is,
I wonder at whether our willingness to "deal with it" is simply encouraging the corporate "work til you die" attitude.
I work in an industry largely comprised of the previous 2 generations that, from simple observation, seems to contain an awful lot of workaholics. As a generation raised by workaholics, I'm not surprised that my peers are leaving this company while others refuse to even get started in it.
I'm all for a generation that screams out "THIS IS MY LIFE!!! and I want to live it to the fullest" - not locked up in a cubicle staring at a computer fostering relationships through facebook and myspace because we're all too busy with work to see eachother in the real world.
But the corporate world isn't changing anytime soon. I'm not willing to sell my soul to a corporation. I want to live my life the way God intended me to live it. And right now, I don't feel like I am, stuck trying to earn enough money to pay my rent and being told to put in more hours that I won't get paid for. My job tells me my life should revolve around it. My God tells me my life should revolve around him. I don't have time or energy for both.