Atheism for Children
by
Candice Watters
on Oct 29, 2007 at 10:20 AM
I love December -- snow, Christmas and blockbuster films. This year it's The Golden Compass, the first in Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy, a story many are comparing to the works of J.R.R. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis and J.K. Rowling. He even hails from Oxford.
In Shedding Light on His Dark Materials, author Kurt Bruner writes:
Unlike Tolkien's works of Christian imagination or Rowling's relatively innocent fun, many of Pullman's spiritual undercurrents run in direct opposition to the God of Christianity.
Some have gone so far as to call Pullman "the most dangerous author in Britain" because his trilogy presents a universe in which rebellion against a tyrannical "Authority" is encouraged, the church is depicted as an oppressive institution that suppresses truth and freedom, and "his dark materials" (a concept borrowed from Milton's Paradise Lost, regarding Satan's rebellion) open our eyes to the "truth" that we came into existence out of our own energy rather than being created by some illegitimate, decrepit deity.
Though Pullman lives in Oxford, "he has never achieved the scholarly merits or academic status of either [Tolkien or Lewis]," writes Bruner, though "he did teach part-time for several years at Oxford's Westminster College before dedicating himself to writing full-time. So while only on the fringe of the academy, Pullman's imagination has flourished in the city many consider the capital of fantasy literature. And it shows. His brilliant craftsmanship betrays a love for some of the most influential British authors of all time."
An article in the Washington Times focuses on the concerns of Catholic blogger Mark Shea:
Pullman's a zealous atheist, so you get what you pay for. Unlike [J.K.] Rowling, Pullman is not subtle. He states in interviews that he is writing an anti-Narnia series."
"What Pullman wants to do is proselytize for atheism," said Mr. Shea. "Pullman is writing with an agenda. He's a good writer, what it makes his books even more insidious.
Pullman's not just a good writer, but an award-winning one. The Golden Compass won England's Carnegie Medal and the Guardian Fiction Prize. The American Library Association deemed it a Top Ten Best Book for Young Adults.
The Times article notes that according to Shea, what makes Pullman's books so worrisome is their appeal to the masses, most notably, masses of children.
Most atheists promote their ideas through dry academic treatises, said Mr. Shea, "but the masses don't pay attention to that. They pay attention to story and fiction. And this is where Pullman is dangerous — he promotes atheism through children's story.
Come December, in addition to an extra-large bucket of buttery popcorn, you can get a heaping dose of angry anti-God propaganda for children.
1. Canadian Boy had the following to say on Oct 29 at 11:10 AM:
Here's a surprise: I LOVE the His Dark Materials trilogy. I read them when I was in grade 8, and I don't think any other series ever pulled me in like this one did (well, except for The Hardy Boys when I was in grade 3). Pullman is an extraordinary writer, and he knows how to tell an epic story without going above 600 pages (JK Rowling could learn a lesson from him about that).
Funny thing is, the time that I read the books is when I was furthest from God- and reading them actually made me realize how real He was. There'd be points in which I'd read certain "anti-Christian" messages and think "Wait a minute, that's not how it is at all!" and I'd remember what I'd learned in church. I'd always keep in mind that it was a work of fiction- in this fantasy, made-up world there is no God, and the Church is more like an authoritative government than it is a religious institution. But in this real world, it is nothing like that.
Adding on to the world of Pullman's mind, it's actually extremely depressing. It's dark, it's gloomy and there's little hope, because there is no God and no faith. Lyra and Will try to find meaning in themselves, but it's really ambiguous if they succeed or not.
So, yeah, I love the books, and I wholeheartedly recommend them to anyone who likes a good fantasy novel. It's gripping, it's emotional and it's exciting. Oh, and it has talking armoured polar bears.
2. Jamie Morton had the following to say on Oct 29 at 11:11 AM:
Is it just me or does that last sentence seem unnecessarily incendiary?
I always find it frustrating to read works by atheist authors; I feel like my mind is being "pulled from the straight," to borrow a Woolfian phrase. But since you've already referred to Milton . . .
Even Milton, who was a staunch, radical fundamentalist, recognized the importance for freedom of press. That's what Aereopagitica is all about. Milton recognizes that many books published in his time and area are wrongly reasoned (in that they are contrary to a fundamental and correct interpretation of the Bible), yet he was fiercely against the idea of censorship. Why? Because he recognized the necessity of exposing people to wrong reason in order that right reason might be a choice.
In the same way, I believe that my parents' desire to protect me from certain ideas severely stunted my spiritual growth. I was never taught to question, therefore never to exercise reason, be it right reason or wrong reason. Which is why I don't have a problem with children reading a book like this. Perhaps the author is trying to brainwash children into believing what he believes, but aren't there Christian texts that attempt to do the same thing. Well-intended or not, true or not, brainwashing is brainwashing, and in inculcating children early on with any kind of idea--even if it's supposedly true--you take away their ability to reason and therefore disable part of their God-given free will.
3. Kit had the following to say on Oct 29 at 11:51 AM:
While it is true that children are impressionable, they are not ignorant. A young adult who has been raised on CS Lewis or the like can find interesting points of debate in literature such as this, and can sharpen his or her belief system by directly contesting and arguing the points of the author. In fact, I would go so far as to say young adults should read these sorts of things and analyze them, sharpening their own beliefs as they learn to intellectualize their own faith. It would be very beneficial to institute Sunday School classes dealing with these sorts of things, rather than the typical young-adult SS which, indirectly reminiscent of TEEN magazine, often only touches on questions like, "I like a boy. How should I handle it?"
We as Christians are afraid of debate. We are literally shaking in our shoes to debate these issues in the 'real world' because we know we will get shot down by people who have more intellectual fodder against the Christian faith than we have for it. We need to know why we believe rather than merely believeing it blindly or even beliving (sp?) it on personal experience. Contrary to popular belief, Christianity is quite intellectual. The problem is, we don't search it out and certainly shy away from counter-arguements.
Reading books contrary to the Christian world-view will not cause children to become indoctrinated with heathen beliefs and turn into wild, paper-clothing wearing, guitar playing tree hugging hippies (I am not implying environmentalism is a bad thing, either). From my observation, often, the only people who abandon the faith are those who find no answers to the complex questions Christianity presents; people who are not intellectually challenged in the faith.
Sooner than later, young adults will come in contact with the realities of the 'real world' anyway. Why not allow them to read this, then discuss with them the world-view being presented and why it is inaccurate?? If discussed objectively, it will probably enhance their understanding of Christianity and the inherent truth of it.
There is a great book entitled "Loving God with all your Mind" that deals with the anti-intellectualization of Chrisitnaity in America...very interesting...a must-read for anyone discouraged with this issue in churches today...
4. Allyson had the following to say on Oct 29 at 11:55 AM:
I find it increasingly difficult to sheild my child from world values. I was raised in a family that values all literature and there were never any restrictions to what we could and could not read. It's unfortuanate that authors are writting with hidden agendas, and it's even more appauling that they are targeting children.
5. Adam Sloope had the following to say on Oct 29 at 12:05 PM:
Oh no! I really wanted to see this movie. I probably still will, because I think it will be an interesting conversation starter and for mere entertainment purposes. I do find it scary though that an atheist is now making movie with the intentions of being anti Narnia. Children will be loaded up on this idea that rebellion is a great thing instead of obedience to God being good. I find it sad and utterly pointless for atheist to do anything with a cause. Their religion or cult in itself is without cause because they believe the absurd that everything just came together and that we don't mean anything... I think that most if not all atheist have been hurt and are angry at God or Hid church in some form and that is what keeps them so motivated and gives them a cause. Their cause is to go against the very God they say doesn't exist.
6. Diane had the following to say on Oct 29 at 12:15 PM:
I will watch it.
7. JB had the following to say on Oct 29 at 12:36 PM:
I really enjoyed the books. They're like what you would get if CS Lewis had been a huge fan of Nietzsche.
The kind of atheism you get from Pullman isn't the sort that argues that only the material world is real - it's more of a critique of the Church in history. The religious characters are vicious, Puritanical hypocrites who only lust for power. On the other hand, angels and souls are real. The archbishop of Canterbury has actually recommended the books and said that they can profitably be read as a critique of corruption in the church rather than as a critique of religion per se. I think that might require a bit of creative interpretation, but it's plausible.
8. Gene had the following to say on Oct 29 at 1:38 PM:
Not sure about the little jab at J.K. Rowling, but many have argued for the Christian elements in her Harry Potter stories, and she herself just recently confirmed the deep Christian roots and imagery in the stories.
9. Loris had the following to say on Oct 29 at 2:00 PM:
I'm concerned that this will create another anti-book scare within the Christian community like there was with the Harry Potter books. I consider the Harry Potter books to be relatively harmless, but the point is that many, many parents freaked out and banned them without knowing much about them. While I don't advocate at all that parents should just let their kids read (or watch) anything, it really makes Christians look ignorant and reactionary to unequivocably shun a piece of pop culture their kids are coming in contact with WITHOUT KNOWING A THING ABOUT IT.
Now I agree that the easiest way to brainwash a generation is with clever, well-executed stories. Since the danger to our children's faith in the "His Dark Materials" seems so obvious, shouldn't a conscientious parent pick up a copy to read BEFORE their kid comes home from the library buzzing with enthusiasm for the new series their friend down the street is reading?
My parents took a similar approach to the one I advocated with movies, especially. When I was young and watching kids movies, my parents watched them first to screen for content. But I don't mean "screen for content" as in if they found something they didn't like, they wouldn't let me watch it. No, instead they would watch it with me and explain to me why they disagreed with certain parts and how some element of the story ran counter to how a Christian little girl should act, i.e. Ariel disobeys her loving (if portrayed as unfairly strict) father and is rewarded for it at the end. Once they were sure I understood what they were trying to tell me, they had enough confidence in me to let me watch/read the item in question, knowing that when I came to the parts they had pointed out, I would be uneasy because it was contrary to what I had been taught. And you know what? I always WAS uneasy when I came to those parts of the story.
I really believe that children can handle a lot of themes with their faith intact if the parents go in ahead of time and use the material in question to teach the child how to think for itself and compare what it is being presented against what it already knows from the Bible. I know that approach led me to deeply appreciate my parents as I entered college and realized I already knew how to critique what I was reading. It showed they respected my intelligence and trusted me enough to honor their teaching even when their eyes weren't directly on me.
10. Adam T. had the following to say on Oct 29 at 2:03 PM:
Interesting comments, Canadian Boy.
I think to lots of folks, part of the appeal of LOTR, Narnia, etc. is that they evoke a 'feeling' of longing... of nostalgia for a wonderful place we've never been. And of course as a Christian I think it works because that place we 'long' for is the world as it was supposed to be - unfallen.
And so while I haven't read them, I can't help but think that Pullman's books might generate the opposite feeling: that 'this just isn't right'. I think for many people a book like that would ring hollow, in a sense; they'd 'see through it' spiritually though they may not consciously understand what they were feeling.
Of course, that may differ for children. In any case, if the books are as good as some are saying, it'll be interesting to see how they stand the test of time.
11. Kit had the following to say on Oct 29 at 2:14 PM:
Allyson, you said "It's unfortuanate that authors are writting with hidden agendas."
Authors of great literature have always had hidden agendas. CS Lewis' sole agenda was to intellectualize Christianity. Kate Chopin's sole agenda with "The Awakening" was to promote radical feminism in an era when women were expected to shun their identity. Charles Dickens' agenda was often to expose corruption in society. Annie Dillard attempts to reconcile naturalism and environmentalism with Christianity.
I'm not sure I know of an author without an agenda, and reading this is no different than reading anything else--you have to decide for yourself what the overarching truth in the novel is...
12. Ted Slater had the following to say on Oct 29 at 2:19 PM:
A question for all of you: Do you practice media discernment? If so, how? If not, why not?
13. Holly had the following to say on Oct 29 at 3:02 PM:
On HDM: fabulous entertainment and no threat to anyone's faith. Despite being incredibly well-written and enjoyable as stories, the overall gloom makes the worldview ANYTHING but attractive.
On Ted's question: yes, in the following ways: Films -- I use Plugged In and other review sites to check out the content of movies before considering seeing them. Television -- don't own one. Music -- aside from praise and worship, my musical tastes run to classical and jazz, so there are no lyrics. LOL. Books -- I read the cover blurbs and flip through, sampling passages here and there, before deciding to read them. If the writing is inferior or the content offensive, I have no problem putting them down.
14. Tami had the following to say on Oct 29 at 3:02 PM:
Kit - I also like Moreland's book. I read when it was published, not long after college. It had a hugely positive effect on how I view things. I'd read so many Christian classics in college (Augustine, a Kempis, Luther)... and was really bummed at the level of stuff that was more readily available at the Christian bookstore. Moreland's book was a real encouragement.
For those interested, an additional perk of Moreland's book is a list of additional good books to read, organized by subject area.
15. Gene had the following to say on Oct 29 at 3:22 PM:
Ted, your "question" seems to me a large case of begging the question.
Are you implying that people who read "non-Christian" material are somehow not practicing discernment?
I hope you're not advocating a simplistic hands-off approach to anything that doesn't mention Jesus on every page or material that causes us to think more deeply about our Christian faith by actually challenging it.
It's no wonder that so many of our young people are tongue-tied when trying to present Christianity to our culture.
16. Ted Slater had the following to say on Oct 29 at 4:26 PM:
Gene -- this isn't merely "non-Christian." This is "anti-Christian." The author is bent on flipping Christianity on its head, encouraging us to sympathize with Satan and doubt God.
Consider what the author has said:
And here's a synopsis of his trilogy:
It surprises me that Christians would give many hours of their time to let the author of these books tickle their ears. Of all the good books out there, Christians choose to submit their imaginations to an author intent on seeing Christianity dissolved. I honestly don't see how a Christian can read these particular books and not be grieved.
I think most Christians don't practice media discernment when it comes to, as you phrase it, "non-Christian" media. I'm surprised to see Christians, however, come to the defense of a book whose author explicitly set out to defame Christ and His followers. This tells me that many Christians are not just passive about media discernment, but seemingly rebellious to the concept altogether.
That's why I asked about it. I truly do wonder what our readers think of "media discernment," and whether it's something we should be mindful of, or whether, for the sake of being "culturally relevant," we should not protect ourselves from even the most offensive materials.
Do I sound "tongue-tied," Gene?
17. Leah had the following to say on Oct 29 at 4:37 PM:
Canadian Boy- I think your "realisations" during reading the book are owing to the church background that you did have. For those who have no church background, or perhaps just a little bit of Sunday School when they were 6 years old, I think that the spiritual suggestions made by the book are a lot more dangerous and misleading than the effect it had on you.
Of course, I haven't read them and won't make a complete judgment of them until I do, but the author's admittance that he is atheist and aiming to pull people the same way with his books sounds pretty incriminating to me.
18. Leah had the following to say on Oct 29 at 4:53 PM:
Kit- I don't think Candice's problem is that we might have to engage in debate, or that "Reading books contrary to the Christian world-view (will) cause children to become indoctrinated with heathen beliefs and turn into wild, paper-clothing wearing, guitar playing tree hugging hippies".
It's the Harry Potter debate all over again, although somewhat more sinister. I'm sure it is quite fine to let young people read Pullman's trilogy, so long as they are educated enough to know it is simply a story and not real, and neither are its ideals or doctrines.
"Reading books contrary to the Christian world-view" may well "cause children to become indoctrinated with heathen beliefs" if they are not educated enough to distinguish what is completely fiction within the book. This has been proven by people's belief of The da Vinci Code. However, if the person is educated enough to know that this is a completely fictional story made up for entertainment, and does not contain spiritual realities, then you're right, they will not "cause children to become indoctrinated with heathen beliefs and turn into wild, paper-clothing wearing, guitar playing tree hugging hippies".
Ted- sorry, but you're not a young person :P Gene wasn't saying you should be tongue-tied.
Gene- I'm a diehard Harry Potter fan, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it has Christian roots. Imagery, sure, but roots? Not sure. (Yes, I read the link you posted). I must admit I've been kind of holding my breath for a few years now, waiting each time a HP movie is released, for Boundless to jump on its back, but fortunately they haven't.
19. Joseph had the following to say on Oct 29 at 5:26 PM:
Ted I can see your point and agree with you concerning this instance. I am curious how you approach authors like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and the other "Brights" out there. Do you avoid their material to not be influenced by them? I have not yet got around to reading Dawkins due to my already large pile of books I have yet to read but I do fully intend on reading them.
Do you see this as a possible topic that Christians should read to be able to find common ground with people that may stir deeper conversations?
20. bella had the following to say on Oct 29 at 5:39 PM:
I've come to rely on Candice for the odd book condemnation blog every now and then......my vampire boyfriend's feelings are still hurt from her last dig, though. He'll cheer up when he sees that she has moved on to "His Dark Materials." Can't wait for the next book that offends her, especially with "Banned Book Month" coming up :)
21. Andrew R. (aka Canadian Boy) had the following to say on Oct 29 at 5:42 PM:
Ted,
"I honestly don't see how a Christian can read these particular books and not be grieved."
Allow me to enlighten you. First off, there is no grieving how amazing the books are to the reader. Characters that draw you in and won't let go, plots that keep you reading into the wee hours of the night and twists that make you drop the book and gasp. Second, I am fully aware of Pullman's tirade against Christians- this guy has HUGE problems with CS Lewis, and I don't like that. But I can deal with it. I can read the parts of the book that are "anti-Christian" and think to myself "Man, this guy has it all wrong." I can recognize that this is a fantasy world of Pullman's mind, one that, as I said before, is gloomy and depressing. Those who've read the series will know what I'm talking about. There is a lot of dissonance, especially in the final few pages. The ending is downright depressing, and it's such because there is no God (those who've read the books- imagine how it would've ended if there WAS a God! The ending would've been HAPPY!)Reading his books the first time brought me closer to God (take THAT Pullman!), because I knew that something was wrong when I read it.
Do I use discernment? I suppose. I don't like music or movies that are saturated in swear-words. I don't like gratuitous torture scenes. But I can handle watching violence, because I know what's real and what's fake. I know Jack Bauer isn't actually hurting anyone, and if he did any of his "skills" in reality, he'd be in jail. I know that the Heroes are in a very unlikely situation and, as such, violence is necessary.
Back to the books: I'd recommend them to anyone who's a teen or older, because I know they'd be able to read it as fiction. And then we'd be able to have some great discussions (I could do a year-long Bible study incorporating HDM).
Ted, have you read the series?
22. Gene had the following to say on Oct 29 at 6:23 PM:
Ted, have you read Paradise Lost? The most intresting character in it is Satan.
More to my point, a good general always wants to know what the other side is thinking. How in the world are we to know that if we don't read what they're writing?
I'm not talking about reading for light entertainment. I'm talking about reading to know and understand. C.S. Lewis knew the world of pagan mythology inside out. The apostle Paul could quote the Greek philosophers and poets right back at the Greeks.
Most of today's Christians ...? Well, they splutter and say, "Well, it's bad, so you shouldn't read it."
Yeah, that's really convincing.
23. Gene had the following to say on Oct 29 at 6:25 PM:
Oh, and I haven't actually read the "His Dark Materials" books. Life is just way too busy.
But I might now, just so that I can intelligently engage in a conversation about it and not just say, "Well, I read somewhere that ..."
24. Chris had the following to say on Oct 29 at 6:54 PM:
From the excerpt:
Some have gone so far as to call Pullman "the most dangerous author in Britain" because his trilogy presents a universe in which rebellion against a tyrannical "Authority" is encouraged
Uh, how is rebellion against a tyrannical authority bad? If anything, in this day and age when politicians score points by trampling on the very freedoms that make us what we are, I'd say encouraging rebellion is a good thing. Even modern day Protestant churches were started as a rebellion against the Catholic church.
25. Elisabeth had the following to say on Oct 29 at 7:03 PM:
I read His Dark Materials several years ago when I was 16, and the feeling that I had when I finished book three was one of disappointment. The first two books are very good and build towards a great climax...which never really comes in my opinion. The third book felt like Pullman was just shoving his message down the reader's throat. I felt sad for him, because his hatred of Christianity is so evident. I'm so glad that I had read much better (and more satisfying) series before HDM. I felt sad for myself too, that I was lead on for three books and wasted my time reading something that was ultimately empty.
26. Katie had the following to say on Oct 29 at 8:03 PM:
To take a quote from Kit: "While it is true that children are impressionable, they are not ignorant."
I would say that is true to an extent. (Though, as a teacher and a person who works with children a lot, YES, many of them (especially younger ones and younger grades) DO believe that teachers/parents/authors (and others) DO know everything, and whatever we say is law.
Though let's not make it obvious when we lie. We don't want to feed a lie to them all at once. Let's give them little nibbles and make it look pretty and fun. A little humanism here in school. A little rebellion and atheism there in a favorite book or movie. It's no surprise that by high school, many students are strong atheists and rebel against Christianity, good character and virtues, and ESPECIALLY against God.
And for those of you who do/will screen what your kids watch and will discuss things like this with them - kudos for you! However, many parents (even at the private Christian school where I teach), do not care what their children read or watch, do not track any of it, and will not discuss it.
Some of you mentioned that it is a great book, and will probably be a great movie - but most of you are strong enough Christians where you can see through the lies, and identify what is right and wrong with it. Many kids - especially the unsaved - will not. And why should they care - it has a great plot, the protagonist is a free-spirited girl they could identify with, and authority and rules are evil.
My last comment on this: If I were to offer any of you a full glass of lemonade with just a few drops of arsenic in it, would you take it? It would taste good - you probably wouldn't even notice the arsenic, and it would still be mostly lemonade anyway. Lemonade, anyone?
We are so careful about what we eat physically, but we tend to be rather careless with our spiritual diet.
27. JB had the following to say on Oct 29 at 8:45 PM:
Ted,
Rowan Williams has given a lot of interviews about his view of Pullman's trilogy (one is here http://arts.guardian.co.uk/features/story/0,,1165873,00.html) and I'm struck by how engaged he is with the text and the challenge it presents to Christianity. Williams looks at the text as a parable about a church without redemption, concerned with the preservation of a deity of the world, not superior to it. He thinks of Pullman's writing as helping us to see what our Church is not.
Pullman is clear about his personal views, sure, but he's a good enough writer we can use his books for our own ends. I think a critical reading of His Dark Materials is very rewarding. Williams writes (about both the books and the stage adaptation), "A modern French Christian writer spoke about 'purification by atheism' - meaning faith needed to be reminded regularly of the gods in which it should not believe. I think Pullman and Wright do this very effectively for the believer. I hope too that for the non-believing spectator, the question may somehow be raised of what exactly the God is in whom they don't believe."
They're really great, entertaining coming-of-age stories and if you read them critically, there's a lot of theological content worth thinking about (not swallowing whole, of course, but definitely food for thought). Seriously, give the books a try. They're not long. They won't hurt you. And talking about the content of the books and why it is or is not wrong is a lot more fruitful than talking about why we shouldn't ever read them.
28. k. had the following to say on Oct 29 at 9:56 PM:
God is not up there panicking over books by Philip Pullman and Christopher Hitchens. Why should we? Reading The Golden Compass is not going to turn us into atheistic automatons. In high school, I read a particularly nauseating little work called Mein Kampf...it sure didn't turn me into a Nazi. (Oh, and even though I thought it was vile, it was still worth reading.)
According to Merriam-Webster, to discern is to "show insight and understanding." Nowhere in there does it recommend sticking our fingers into our ears and saying "La la la, I can't HEAR you!" when faced with something that we don't like. Literature is more than just "Christian" or "non-Christian." I've read Machiavelli, Susan Faludi, and Malcolm X...none of whom I completely agree with. Does that mean I get to ignore what they wrote? Hardly. Part of being an educated human being is recognizing that other perspectives exist...we don't have to agree with those perspectives. But we DO need to be able to exercise our critical thinking and analytical skills in addressing them.
Of course, there are logical limits: I'm not recommending watching "Naughty Nurses 8" just so we can engage with that audience. But I also don't think we should shy away from a literary work just because it's written from an atheistic perspective. Good literature isn't written only by Christians.
As for children: by all means, give them direction and age-appropriate guidance. But always protecting them, without giving them the tools to engage their culture and to think for themselves, is not doing them any favors.
29. Samuel Keane-Rudolph had the following to say on Oct 29 at 10:47 PM:
I think it's disingenuous to rush into criticism of children's books. Many Christians did this years ago when Harry Potter was published, and were rightly derided as unthinking alles verboten critics of anything that wasn't Christian.
Yes, His Dark Materials is written by an atheist. It is roughly equivalent to Lewis's Narnia. But atheists didn't cry foul when Narnia was published, so why should Christians cry foul when the atheists have their turn? Dawkins and kind have already been having their fun with atheistic fundamentalism.
The primary strength of Christianity lies in its truth. The truth is always its own best defense. Jesus is quite good at defending Himself when we try to stay out of His way. Let's not muck up His apologetics by getting sidetracked onto criticism of legitimate free speech in the marketplace of ideas.
30. Chris Krycho had the following to say on Oct 29 at 11:13 PM:
Ted,
I think that while we need to practice discernment, we also need (desperately!) to read books like this. We ought to read them with discernment, but then we ought to read everything with discernment. Including Lewis. There is much to be grieved by in Pullman's work, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't read it, understand it, and be able to intelligently discuss it.
I had huge problem with Harry Potter. Why? It had nothing to do with the occult material in it. I could have handled that at 7 or 8, because I'd been taught proper discernment and how to understand what was good and what was bad. (My parents are fabulous.) No, it bothered me because it just wasn't very well written, especially before Book 4.
Read The Road, by Cormac McCarthy? You should. It's incredibly dark, violent, and disturbing. It also ought to be mandatory reading for anyone (with a strong enough stomach) over the age of 16. Why? Because it's an incredible work of literature, and while it's incredibly dark, it ultimately deals in Truth: that man is depraved, but that there is Good and that it is worth fighting for. Explicitly Christian? Not even close. Absolutely worth reading? Yes.
If we applied the same standards to our reading that most Christian advocates of "media discernment" want us to (and there is wisdom in that, to a point), we would have to cut out incredible works. Lord of the Rings: far too violent. Paradise Lost: good grief, Adam and Eve were sexual beings?!! Crime and Punishment: the whole thing revolves around the axe murder of two old women. We definitely shouldn't go anywhere near those. (Please understand: I am very careful in what I watch. No sex. Very discerning on the violence. I think we need to guard our minds [Proverbs 4:23]. But we do not need to be afraid of things, and I think we all too often are.)
Now, all of those were written from explicitly Christian worldviews, and as such have significantly more redemptive power in them than HDM. That does not mean, however, that we shouldn't read HDM - and not simply so that we can critique them to anyone who will listen. Is there something to be learned from Pullman's books? I think there is. If nothing else, we can see how far man really has fallen, and I think the books are really quite the perfect illustration of the lie that led to the Fall, and indeed the lie that Satan continues to use all the time. Sounds like prime reading material for Christians who are willing to exercise their minds.
31. James had the following to say on Oct 29 at 11:58 PM:
Candice, before I read this I saw the Fox News article on this, and I THOUGHT I saw FotF's position being one of "Wait and See" concerning the movie.
While the books certainly ARE poison wrapped in an innocent package if you're not a discerning reader who knows the Truth and is grounded in it, I'm certain (haven't read them, but I KNOW the power of books), still, the movie makers are doing what they can for the film to make it much less anti-God. This, of course, has set off BOTH groups: Christians, and Athiests. The former claiming the watering down is just to butter the kids up for the books, and the latter whining that hollywood is supposedly giving into "The Bible Belt."
I'm with Dr. Dobson on this. Let's wait and see FIRST, then render judgement.
32. Jethro had the following to say on Oct 30 at 1:20 AM:
Something can be both a good literary work and anti-Christian you know Ted. Nietzsche for example.
33. Sheridan had the following to say on Oct 30 at 2:56 AM:
I think it's scary to start justifying Harry Potter by saying it has 'deep Christian roots.'
I know that its other 'roots' are packed full of witchcraft, and since those books and movies have come out, witchcraft is becoming more and more prevelent with school age kids.
I do not believe you can promote witchcraft AND Christianity in the same book.
As for media discernment, I think we have all become way too desensitized.
We shouldn't have the attitude, 'well I'm mature, I'm a strong Christian, therefore I can handle these things.'
I believe God would rather us run in the opposite direction!
34. Theo K had the following to say on Oct 30 at 3:15 AM:
Jamie Morton said: “In the same way, I believe that my parents' desire to protect me from certain ideas severely stunted my spiritual growth. I was never taught to question, therefore never to exercise reason, be it right reason or wrong reason. Which is why I don't have a problem with children reading a book like this. Perhaps the author is trying to brainwash children into believing what he believes, but aren't there Christian texts that attempt to do the same thing. Well-intended or not, true or not, brainwashing is brainwashing, and in inculcating children early on with any kind of idea--even if it's supposedly true--you take away their ability to reason and therefore disable part of their God-given free will.”
“Hear, Israel: The Lord is our God; The Lord is one: 5 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. 6 These words, which I command you this day, shall be on your heart; 7 and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up. 8 You shall bind them for a sign on your hand, and they shall be for symbols between your eyes. 9 You shall write them on the door posts of your house, and on your gates.” – Deuteronomy 6:4-9
35. Ashley S. had the following to say on Oct 30 at 7:13 AM:
Philippians 4:8 says
"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
As Christians, we have a responsibility to fill our minds and hearts, not with things of this world, but with the things of God.
If you are not going to be an atheist, why would you read a story that is so anti-God? Why do we allow things that we would never allow to actually be said or done in our homes to come in through the TV? I am not saying that you can only read books with "Christian" themes (I've read books by Albert Camus and E. M. Forester), but I do agree with Ted in that we must have discernment in what we fill our minds with. And we especially must be careful what we allow to enter the minds of our children.
36. Reid had the following to say on Oct 30 at 7:52 AM:
Believe it or not, people who are in no way sympathetic to Christianity appear to have no qualms about enjoying fantasy written by Christians--even the Narnia series, which is about as undisguised as it gets. (Odd how that isn't often mentioned in any of the media coverage for the movies, eh?) It seems to me that something like the Da Vinci Code, with its "realistic" fiction about the Church, is far more worrisome than something imaginative.
37. Andrew R. (aka Canadian Boy) had the following to say on Oct 30 at 8:55 AM:
I just don't think that the average reader is going to read this book and think "Oh my gosh! The author is completely right! There is no God! I should become an atheist now!"
This book is fantasy. Animals talk. A knife transports people between worlds. Polar bears wear armour and fight each other. Unlike the DaVinci Code, it's not presented as "truth". And I think readers are going to recognize that when dealing with the spiritual themes.
38. Craig had the following to say on Oct 30 at 9:12 AM:
I'm the guy who strongly disagreed with Ted about "300" (and still do), but I'm with him 100% here. I won't see this movie. Engaging the arguments of the modern fanatical atheist crowd is a priority, but doing that requires reading and thought. Viewing a fantasy film contributes very little to one's knowledge about such issues--instead, such films inflame the imagination and passions. That can be good if your passion is pushed in the right direction, but here the entire story is an explicit assault on the idea of a good God. Art is about message, message, message. I'm happy to debate theism and atheism all day long, but I'm not going to voluntarily be preached at for two hours with no chance for rebuttal.
39. Ted Slater had the following to say on Oct 30 at 9:16 AM:
Again, I have to ask why a Christian would *choose* to spend dozens of hours reading the works of a man who is intent on blaspheming Christ and ridiculing Christians.
Pullman's expressed purpose is to challenge the notion that God exists and is good, and to challenge the legitimacy of His Church. By wrapping this theme with an imaginative storyline, he's tricking you into putting yourself under his tutelage.
There are so many good books out there. Why pour the words of this anti-Christian man into your hearts? Because he's clever with words? Because he's imaginative?
Are we so eager to be culturally relevant that we'd pollute our minds and imaginations with material that aims to cast a sinister shadow on the very nature of God?
Come on, guys -- you can do better than this. We have to stop thinking of this stuff as innocuous "literature," and see it as the product of a disingenuous man who hates your Lord and wants you freed from His "tyranny."
40. Ted Slater had the following to say on Oct 30 at 9:21 AM:
Andrew/Canadian Boy -- no, I have not read the series. I *have* researched the author, though, and read some excerpts of the book, and so I'm not speaking out of ignorance.
While it looks like a fascinating read, I have chosen not to submit myself to its teachings. I have chosen not to give Mr. Pullman a hearing. Mr. Pullman does not want a "dialog"; he wants to see me question my faith. I've got better things to do with my time.
41. Christina had the following to say on Oct 30 at 9:21 AM:
Ashley...thank you...i've been trying to post that verse for 2 hours now...
42. Josh had the following to say on Oct 30 at 9:26 AM:
I'd rather read an artistically excellent piece of atheist themed literature than 99% of the harmless, saccharine sweet tripe that passes for "Christian" writing nowadays.
43. Christina had the following to say on Oct 30 at 9:28 AM:
Reid, the difference between non-christians reading our stuff and us reading their stuff is that they have no warnings or guidelines or any other reason to care - christians have been told outright through scripture to be careful what we read, watch, see, do, say...you name it.
That's what sets us apart from the rest of the world.
44. Ted Slater had the following to say on Oct 30 at 9:28 AM:
JB -- you wrote, "Seriously, give the books a try. They're not long. They won't hurt you."
No. A friend of mine who works at Plugged In Online has been reading/studying them for a while, and has told me it takes him some 15 hours to read one book. He's reading it for an upcoming review, so he's putting more work into it than a casual reader. The thing is, he'll have spent over 45 hours reading the words of Pullman. That's a lot of time to spend with someone bent on belittling God. I really don't see the need. I don't see the benefit to my imagination or my spirit. I really don't.
So, no, I won't be reading Pullman's works. And I'm no less relevant for my decision.
I'm wondering if most Christians will be reading this series merely for entertainment, and not for the more lofty philanthropic reasons some are giving for justifying their exposure to Pullman's ideas.
45. Ted Slater had the following to say on Oct 30 at 9:35 AM:
Andrew/Canadian Boy -- you defend the book by saying it's merely "fantasy."
Tell me -- what was the most effective means Jesus used to communicate His ideas? Parables. Short stories that captured His listeners' imaginations and conveyed a truth that connected with their very hearts.
Fiction may be more powerful than non-fiction in affecting hearts. We mustn't dismiss a work of fiction as necessarily innocuous.
46. Christina had the following to say on Oct 30 at 10:01 AM:
I don't understand how people who claim to be christians can defend these books as simply good, fantastical, harmless literature. As has been pointed out, everything is written with a theme, a point - the spirit in which it is written can have good or bad effects on those choosing to spend their time thinking about it. Consider a song with no words that becomes the obsession of a teenage girl who then begins having suicidal thoughts and splitting her own wrists, only to learn that the song was written to be the theme for the Exorcist - this isn't simply the world vs Christians - there is a spiritual battle. And if you don't think it applies to you, then good luck staying alive. Galatians says to arm yourselves for battle. Philippians tells you to take care what you think about. This is a prime example of when discernment is TRULY necessary. I personally am not saying not to read them, but be very careful about your reasons FOR reading them - entertainment? knowledge? If entertainment, why do you want to be entertained by this? What is right, good, true about it? If its for knowledge, what do you plan on using that knowledge for? Discussing it with your children, peers, professors, apologetics?
Just saying, be a little more DISCERNING on what you expose yourself to and the reasons why you choose to do so...it could have more consequences than you know...
47. Diane had the following to say on Oct 30 at 10:18 AM:
I am interested in watching the movie, not the books. While I read quite a bit, particularly worldview and apologetics on BOTH sides, I will not read this series as I will not/have not read Harry Potter. I tend to have a hard time keeping the Word predominant as is. However, I've been listening to Ravi Zacharias' "Mind Games in a World of Images" podcast series and he is quite like Schaeffer in saying that FILM IS PROPAGANDA! (Not like the books aren't!) I want to see it to discuss it. No, I do not watch whatever comes my way...nothing gratuitous. But, yes, this I will see. It is marketed to children and we should be educated. My children are only 3 and 2 months old. I know that I will have to make decisions based on their maturity when the time comes. There are also things that mom and dad will simply say, "No sir/ma'am" to. But, this film? Again, I'll watch it...on Netflix.
48. Kellie had the following to say on Oct 30 at 10:28 AM:
I think most Christian "literature" found in bookstores today is of poor quality. I do read some Christian books, but I read many more secular books, particularly fiction. Secular and non-christian is very different than anti-christian. I did pcik up the golden compass at the library, I read a few pages (nothing horrid in the first chapter) and just decided against it. That isn't to say that no Christian should read it, but perhaps there should be a reason for reading it.
49. Kit had the following to say on Oct 30 at 11:17 AM:
"Ted I can see your point and agree with you concerning this instance. I am curious how you approach authors like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and the other "Brights" out there. Do you avoid their material to not be influenced by them?"
This is a great question. I just finished Dawkins' "The God Delusion" and found it to be, actually, a quite well-researched book with well-argued points. Did I become an atheist? Of course not. One can see where some of his views are flawed, and it was fun to write my criticisms on the sides of the pages. But did I find it enlightening, to learn how much of the world thinks, and why? Yes.
If we as Christians run away from literature such as this, we will not have a leg to stand on when people ask us to defend our faith. Only when you understand both sides can you answer their questions with logical answers that actually make scientific and intellectual sense. Too often, we say, "Well, that's what the Bible says," completely forgetting that a non-believer thinks that the Bible, if it is anything at all, is only a nice work of fiction detailing events that never actually happened, and so they do not care what it says. We have GOT to step it up. No wonder people take Christianity as irrelevant. We dismiss things we haven't read/understood because we are scared of them.
Literature like this, I think, is good for the general faith. It spurs debate, among Chrisitans and non. That's a good thing.
50. Diane had the following to say on Oct 30 at 11:19 AM:
I just spoke to my husband about this conversation. He said that there is a distinct difference in watching/reading to be informed and watching/reading and giving an endorsement.
Can we remember that there is a fine line we are treading between what is mandated in scripture and what is lawful for us as believers? I feel like we need to remember to speak graciously to one another.
How exactly do we draw the line, as believers? Is it a matter of entertainment vs. understanding? Or, are only a select few o.k. to watch/listen/read while the rest of us just take their word for it? Sometimes yes, sometimes no? It's tricky.
51. Chris Krycho had the following to say on Oct 30 at 12:11 PM:
Ted: There are so many good books out there. Why pour the words of this anti-Christian man into your hearts? Because he's clever with words? Because he's imaginative?
Are we so eager to be culturally relevant that we'd pollute our minds and imaginations with material that aims to cast a sinister shadow on the very nature of God?
Come on, guys -- you can do better than this. We have to stop thinking of this stuff as innocuous "literature," and see it as the product of a disingenuous man who hates your Lord and wants you freed from His "tyranny."
While there is some merit to your argument here, there's a lot flawed with it, too. Ought we ignore all mythologies? Should we not read Nietzsche? Should we throw away Steinbeck? Or should we instead dare to grapple with their ideas, confident in the truth?
Maybe it's just me, but saying, "I won't read these books because they're bad" is disingenuous. There is much to be learned from them. I'm not saying we ought to read this sort of material more than good literature created by Christians - to the contrary, I think a healthy intake of good literature founded on a Christian worldview is essential for the sanctification of our imaginations. Read Lewis, Dostoevsky, etc. But why be afraid of what Pullman has to say?
Am I recommending that we have all Christian children read these? Hardly. Am I recommending that we be at least willing to pick them up and get through them, acting with discernment? Yes, I absolutely am. I honestly believe one of evangelicalism's major failings right now is its lack of thinkers: people who have engaged the major thoughts and can engage with people at every level.
That is what Paul did. As a previous poster mentioned, he knew Greek philosophy and mythology inside out. When he went to the Aerophagus and presented Christianity, he did it in their terms, on their ground, in their context. Why are we so afraid to do the same?
And why don't we, for a change, stop bellyaching about what the world is doing that is so wrong and go create something compelling ouselves? I highly recommend Sam Briner's book Roaring Lambs on that precise topic. Instead of making such a big deal out of boycotting the bad, why don't we dedicate ourselves to making (and finding and supporting) the good? That resonates far louder with people than our condemnation of the bad. We will be far more effective in our witness by doing good than by declaiming the doing of bad.
52. Andrew R. (aka Canadian Boy) had the following to say on Oct 30 at 12:39 PM:
To those who don't understand why myself and other Christians read (and enjoyed) this series:
What do you expect Christians to do? See no evil, hear no evil, know no evil? Just stand by as this film becomes a huge blockbuster and book sales rise?
Or should we engage in conversation with others about the book and movie? God used this "anti-Christian" book to show me who He is, who says I can't help Him do the same to others?
I stand by my belief that any Christian teen who reads this is not going to lose their faith from it. But any non-believer who reads the series, and then is brought into conversation about it with a Christian who knows the series, can learn so much about God from it.
And, man, would that upset Pullman.
53. Scott W had the following to say on Oct 30 at 1:29 PM:
I have not read the books, but I have heard from a person who has, and who enjoyed them as a great literary work. That is, until he realized that by book three, he was stepping in Pullman's dogma. As I understand it, the first book is relatively free from Pullman's vitriol, but by the third, the protagonists actively oppose the God figure and the magisterium (the church), re-establish their own Eden and eat from the forbidden tree in defiance.
That being said, I fear that the knee-jerk reaction from Christians will make Pullman's point for him. He characterizes Christians as opposers of those who want to live their own lives. If there is a great outcry from the church, and The Golden Compass turns out to be free of discernible (by the world) evil, Pullman will have made his point and created a great real-world setting for the stage set in the second and third movies.
As I understand it, Pullman attacks God and the church, but doesn't attack Christ and his teachings of truth balanced with love and grace. Pullman's distorted view of Christians is doubtless a product of a history of the church that misrepresents God. We can keep the laws and hold them up as a standard, but we seem to have a short supply of grace and love for those who don't have the same standard.
As we respond to the release of The Golden Compass, we need to encourage great caution, especially to parents, as impressionable children are the film's intended audience. But we need to do so in the spirit of grace, staying away from personal attacks against those who can’t yet see the error of Pullman’s agenda.
54. Mandi had the following to say on Oct 30 at 1:31 PM:
Ted, Katie, Ashley S., and Christina – bingo!
After a long hiatus from Boundless-ing because of lots of crazy wedding planning, and much-needed travels after said wedding, I've been eager to get back to this blessed pastime…though it's disheartening, maddening, and appalling to read most of the comments on this post.
I don't mean that to cast judgment. I do feel a need to ask my fellow brethren in Christ: What the heck are people thinking defending this? Or are you thinking at all? If I were on the path to destruction like this, I'd like someone to do their bit to pull me out too, so here goes.
First and foremost, if you love someone, do you sit around silently if they're being insulted or if someone is speaking blatant lies about them? Worse, do you cheer them on or defend it? Do you give them the chance to try to convince you that they're right about your loved one?
So, if love for the One Who shed His innocent Blood for you on the cross is at all existent in your heart, how can you bear 2 hours – or 15 – watching or reading material that maligns, insults, blasphemes, abuses, and otherwise does violence to even the Name of God, let alone His existence and the abundance of His love for you?
Do we not appreciate His love? Is that what it is?
Could you stand someone cursing at your mother, father, sibling, fiancé(e), husband, wife, child, or any other very dearly beloved that way, even for a few minutes???
Such energy rationalizing should give us pause -- do we really love the Name of the One we should be praising with our every word, thought, action, breath, whatever we do.
The love of Christ for each of us individually passes all knowledge. How can we treat such indescribable, unsearchable, unconditional, and undeserved love with such contempt?
Do yourself a favour – or at least humour the other side of this discussion – by reading what the Prophet Isaiah said about
how much our Lord Jesus Christ suffered for us.
Read that, and then ask yourself whether Someone Who did all of that *for you*, even though you did not deserve any of it, and deserved to be in His place, deserves you taking away 2, 3, 15 hours of your time reading, watching, or defending exactly what the Devil wants people to think of Him.
55. Mandi had the following to say on Oct 30 at 1:48 PM:
And for those who think they "can handle it", take note that Satan's spirit is that which casts doubt on or denies God. Pullman is a liar. He is lying about the identity and existence of God, and His Body, the Church. Satan is the father of lying. Whose son do you want to be? How does giving any time, energy, money, or attention to such lies of the worst kind constitute acknowledging God in all our ways???
If God's Word tells us that we'll have to give account for every idle word we utter, how much more should we be careful about every lying word, every blasphemous word we defend, we watch, we financially support (with God's money!)?!?
And, I'm sorry, but, who do people think they are anyway to be strong enough to not let this stuff get to them?? Reading through so many of these defences, you see a lot of "I can", "I know", "I", "I", "I"….who are you to depend on your own wisdom? Lots of focus on "me" and my "strength" and my "wisdom", none on God. That's pride, and that precedes the fall and condemnation. We shouldn't be wise in our own eyes, and for good reason.
Who are we to believe we are strong enough to overcome a roaring lion? The Bible tells us that sin is strong and has slain mighty men, not wimps. Strong men who "could handle it", "who knew enough", "who knew better", "who knew the difference between right and wrong", etc., etc. -- these strong men succumbed. What makes you so special? The Bible tells us that lies and other evils will be enticing, and those who go after such enticements do so as animals, as fools.
Instead of being so proud and wise in our own eyes justifying the entertainment of lies, we are commanded to walk in the light (which is truth, not lies, since they cannot have communion with each other), be holy in all our conduct and vigilant (um, how does exposing our fallen, limited, weak minds to lies about Christ hour after hour constitute "vigilance"??) because the devil is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour (not nibble on), meditating instead on things that are true/pure/holy, etc. as other have pointed out before, being wary of those who resist the words of the apostles.
The fact that people are even discussing exposing children entrusted to us by God, to these lies wrapped in enticing stories, is beyond words, even for me (at this moment, anyway!). And please don't throw out Hitler's book as an example of something that didn't rub off on scores of kids: that's SO obviously evil, Satan couldn't pull that trick on humanity twice. And it wasn't packed so enticingly, anyway.
Finally, if you're looking for good literature, a lot has been written even before this Pullman guy ever came into existence. If you're looking for really good Christian works to edify you, why look for it the darkness found on atheist zealots' books? Why not read something more ancient than you, than your parents, than your modern philosophy professor or media pundit? Why not read the works of John Chrysostom? Athanasius? Basil the Great? How could these great men who often defended the Faith that you and I supposedly hold dear against heretics and destruction, have less knowledge, wisdom, and spiritual enlightenment to pass on to us than modern atheist tomes???
56. Ted Slater had the following to say on Oct 30 at 1:53 PM:
Chris -- I assume it's unintentional, but you're misrepresenting my argument.
You write, "But why be afraid of what Pullman has to say?" I'm not afraid of the man or his writings. I just don't want to spend my precious hours under his imaginative tutelage.
You go on to complain about the lack of "thinkers" in Christendom. I assume you're excluding me from the "thinkers" list because I refuse to expose myself to this man's fiction. Did you intend to insult me, Chris? Must I expose myself to all the pollution out there in an effort to become more "relevant"? Am I not free to choose which media to avoid? Is there any media so corrupt that most of us would be wise to avoid it? Or is all media open to consumption by Christians? What is the criteria for making decisions about what to read/watch and what to avoid?
You talk about "boycotting." Nobody to my knowledge has advocated that. You're setting up a Straw Man, Chris. We're talking about personal media discernment, not a boycott.
Listen, as I wrote, one of my Christian friends is studying the books. I admire him for his research. But if someone is reading these for pleasure, and not grieved by the author's mockery and blasphemy and historical revisionism, I'd have to question that person's relationship with Christ. See Mandi's comment above to see what I'm getting at.
57. Matt had the following to say on Oct 30 at 1:55 PM:
I don't think it should take that long to read the books.
Book 1: 432 Pages
Book 2: 368 Pages
Book 3: 560 Pages (all Hardcover books).
I read them a few years back and was definitely annoyed with the anti-Christian message in them. They were somewhat entertaining but not as good as books like Lord of the Rings, Chronicles of Narnia, or the Harry Potter books.
Also, I didn't like the part of the quote where it was implying that J.K. Rowling is a stealth athiest. It is my understanding that it isn't the case.
58. Ted Slater had the following to say on Oct 30 at 1:59 PM:
Andrew/Canadian Boy -- perhaps one reason you're going through the hardships you're going through is because you expose yourself to anti-Christian material, when you could fill your imagination with rich truth about a God Who is alive and involved and loving.
I would argue that while you may not have "lost your faith" because of Pullman's work, the efficacy of your faith has not developed as it could have had you spent your hours reading, say, Scripture.
59. Diane had the following to say on Oct 30 at 2:18 PM:
Wow.
Mandi...I am not a regular poster here, though a regular reader and lurker. I have to say, however, that your post comes off as a bit self-righteous. If one is saying they "love" the series and want to see the film because it's fantastic and is a proclaimed believer, THEN I would sit down with them and discuss the state of their heart toward Christ, their treasure (supposedly). However, if one wishes to understand the precise area in which truth is being assaulted within THIS generation toward THIS generation's children, then fault them NOT for seeking to be informed by reading or viewing the movie. Lit., media, art, etc., is the mouthpiece of culture and we would do well as believers to understand the prevailing mindset (though recycled worldview, truly) of the age so as to meet them where they are with the unchanging gospel. This is NOT emergent-garbage nor lack of discernment. There is a PHILOSOPHY being discussed in this film and books and people are absorbing it. Do you agree that SOMEONE needs to read it/watch it in order to inform believers and have something to SAY of relative INTELLIGENCE to the world when they ask what we think about it? If so, then who should that be? Should we leave that to pastors or teachers? I'm seriously asking the question. The church has left it to the preachers and intellectuals for far too long and not thought critically about what is being said in the medium people digest DAILY.
Do any of you read WORLD magazine?
Please, please try not to judge your brothers and sisters in Christ too harshly based on disputable matters.
60. Manda had the following to say on Oct 30 at 2:23 PM:
You are accurate, Scott, when you say that it's not until book three that the dogma comes out. That's how I even figured out it was a trap. He spends two beautifully written books setting up a complex situation with lots of twists and turns and interesting characters. Then, out of nowhere, you get hit with a very hateful treatment of an anti-Christian argument. These books have been out for ages now, and at first only the adults I knew were reading them. Honestly, I had the librarian at my home library (I was a volunteer) put the books in the adult section.
61. Diane had the following to say on Oct 30 at 2:28 PM:
No one should be telling anyone that they must read this in order to understand a philosophy. Also, no one should be telling anyone that they should NEVER watch/read it in order to understand a philosophy. For enjoyment, perhaps.
Hey, but, can't we all agree that the SAW movies NO ONE needs to see for any reason? haha anyway...
62. Ashley S. had the following to say on Oct 30 at 2:40 PM:
I think alot of the commenters have forgotten what the title of this post is. "Atheism for Children". Everyone seems to be saying that they feel free to read these books because they can see through the lies. But what about our children?
Proverbs 22:6 says "Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it." These books target children at a very impressionable stage in their life.
As an adult, you have the freedom to choose what you read and suffer the consequences of it. But more importantly, as adults (parents or not) it is our responsibility to train up children for Christ. How can we do this effectively if we allow them to read books that contradict everything that we believe as Christians? Someone is always going to be training our children and telling them what "truth" is. The question is, will it be us?
63. k. had the following to say on Oct 30 at 3:01 PM:
Mandi -- I was absolutely not "throw[ing] out Hitler's book as an example of something that didn't rub off on scores of kids." (It was aimed at adults, actually.) First off, my point about Mein Kampf was even though it's a disgusting read, it's ALSO one that an educated person should be familiar with (especially students of rhetoric and history). Just because a book's content is unappealing (or its author is a real creep) doesn't mean we should automatically ignore it. Secondly, of course Satan can "pull that trick" more than once: you're lamentably uninformed if you think otherwise.
We read books for a variety of reasons: to be entertained, educated, amused, edified, etc. I read Malcolm X for entirely different reasons than I read C. S. Lewis...but both authors were worth my time and effort.
Ted -- You need to back off when it comes to Canadian Boy. Unless you are well-aquainted with CB, or have some superpowers you haven't told us about, you have no idea how effective his testimony really is. (Or, for that matter, why he went through a particular hardship, or how many times he may have read through the bible.)
64. Candice Watters had the following to say on Oct 30 at 3:18 PM:
Wow. It always surprises me when such a heated debate ensues over the notion that a book or movie might be better left unopened. There's no way you could read everything out there, why not choose from the best. Thanks to Ashley for reminding everyone that the debate I started had to do with the fact that Pullman's work is geared toward children. To suggest that we must expose children to any and all entertainment is simply unbiblical.
BTW, I just heard from Kurt Bruner, author of Shedding Light on His Dark Materials. He's intrigued by the debate here. For all you Pullman fans, especially those who claim to be followers of Christ, please consider taking a few hours to read Kurt's book. It believe it will give you some helpful context.
65. Kate M had the following to say on Oct 30 at 4:14 PM:
Ted, thank you for your wisdom here. I love literature, read widely and have an honours degree in the subject and the comparisons people are making with Steinbeck and Neitzsche are simply absurd. All good literature is good ultimately because it has *truth* in it - because it tries to wrestle honestly in some way with the human condition. It's not that a book cannot deal with our fallen nature or the ambiguity of evil - many of the greatest literary works do! - but Pullman's books are about presenting evil as good and God as evil. This is a deliberate lie - in a sense, the ultimate lie - which infects the whole work, nullifying the value of the characters, the writing, the imaginative quality, etc.
I will gladly concede Pullman is a technically great writer of immense talent, but he has turned his talent to evil and has been very honest about doing so. The only reason for reading his books would be to educate others about them and combat the evil he is promoting - and children and teens don't yet have the maturity or the literary skills to be able to do this.
66. Andrew R. (aka Canadian Boy) had the following to say on Oct 30 at 4:39 PM:
Let me say right now that the books are not suitable for children. They deal with mature themes, including kidnapping, murder, fighting and bloodshed. But for teens, I do recommend them. Because they bring up amazing discussions. And they're entertaining.
As I said before, tons of people we know are going to see the movie and read the books. I, for one, will be prepared to discuss it with them. I am fully convinced that, if