Why Dating Outside the Faith is Illogical
by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 09/17/2007 at 2:45 PM
WSJ online ran an article last week on Christians dating non-Christians. It begins by pointing out an obvious disconnect:
In an episode of "Seinfeld" that lays bare the characters' secular sensibilities, Elaine is shocked to learn that her on-again, off-again boyfriend, Puddy, is a believing Christian. "So is it a problem that I'm not really religious?" she asks him upon realizing their differing worldviews. "Not for me," he answers. "I'm not the one going to hell." Though Elaine herself acknowledges that she doesn't believe in an afterlife, she becomes increasingly angry with Puddy for not caring more about her eternal damnation. Finally, she explodes: "You should be trying to save me!"
However unlikely, the "Seinfeld" writers seem to have nailed one of the essential problems of evangelical Christians dating outside their faith community -- what some jokingly refer to as "missionary dating." Lisa Ann Cockrel, the managing editor of Brazos Press, a Christian publisher, writes in an email that "hell is a good barometer for what a Christian will think about missionary dating." In other words, if Puddy really thought Elaine was going to experience such a fate, could he really date her, let alone marry her, without trying to save her?
I've wondered about this myself. In the end, how could a person be at peace in a relationship where he or she fears for his or her partner's eternal soul? So what is driving our tendency to even consider dating outside the fold? The article identifies one of the reasons -- desperation:
For evangelicals who want to pair up with others of the same faith but don't manage to do so in their early 20s, trouble lies ahead, particularly for women. Evangelical churches now typically have a 60-40 split between women and men, which means that there are many more single evangelical women out there than their male counterparts. As Ms. Cockrel explains, "I have friends who wanted to marry a Christian guy, are still single, and are more and more open to dating non-Christians as they get older. They're tired of waiting."
I'm sure more than a few single women out there can relate. And yet, such relationships fall way short of God's best. In her recent article "Same-Lord Relationships," Carolyn McCulley considers the temptation to date those who don't share your faith -- and how it can get you way off-track. She offers this warning:
The moral of the story is never underestimate the negative influence of an unbelieving spouse. God is infinitely wiser than we are and His command to only marry (and by inference, only date) other believers is for both our benefit and His glory.
Whether portrayed on a sitcom or served up in Scripture as a cautionary tale, dating an unbeliever just doesn't make sense.
HT: Justin Taylor
1. P&P said the following at 2:50 PM on Sep 17:
I'll still chalk these situations up to "your mileage may vary." I know a devout member of a Christian church who is married to an Orthodox Jewish man. I've also seen Christian/Muslim, Catholic/athiest, etc.
I agree that missionary dating is wrong: I've experienced it myself (I'm from a liberal group while he was very, very Baptist) but the lord does work in mysterious ways.
2. Sara said the following at 3:25 PM on Sep 17:
If there really are 20% more women than men in our churches, that number says that it's won't be just difficult but pretty much impossible for thousands of our country's single women to marry Christian husbands, let alone men with whom they're compatible in ways other than faith.
It seems women are forced to bear a large burden for the sins of those men who don't go to church.
The remaining 40% of men benefit from the sins of the other men in that they have the opportunity to reject more women and still have a reasonable hope to marrying someone they're happy with.
Even though it isn't the women's fault for men not attending church (any more than it would be if the opposite were the case), women who decide to take it upon themselves to bring more men in the church might understandably--whether it's a good idea or not--consider 'missionary dating'.
You'd have to have a pretty hard heart to not, at least, deeply sympathize with women who choose to marry outside the faith.
3. Mike Theemling said the following at 4:39 PM on Sep 17:
"Evangelical churches now typically have a 60-40 split between women and men, which means that there are many more single evangelical women out there than their male counterparts."
I wonder if this is in part because some of those Christian women have been approached by Christian men but have for whatever reason turned them down for dates/relationships and now find that the only ones willing to date (or women willing to go out with) are non-Christian men.
I can just see this starting another "Whose fault is it that I'm still single?" argument again. Well, I guess we're overdue for one.
4. Claudia said the following at 4:51 PM on Sep 17:
This is a no- brainer... oh wait... if you want to please God.
5. Carrie said the following at 5:43 PM on Sep 17:
Mike, we'll make the "whose fault is it?" discussion short. Its all your fault. :)
There its settled. We need not go there anymore.
6. Jo said the following at 6:43 PM on Sep 17:
I've done it. I wouldn't recommend it for lots of reasons. I won't ever do it again.
But, I don't regret doing it. For me, it was a part of my journey that I think had to happen, in one way or another. Put it this way: God used the difficult, painful experience to bring me close to him again after a long 'wilderness' period where I just hadn't been able to feel God at all. I'm sure it could have been done in other ways, but I think I needed to hit a real low, to really have to rely on Him and cry out to Him and not take silence as an answer.
Obviously I'm not suggesting that it's a good idea to date outside the faith. But I think we should be careful before condemning another person's walk. God accomplishes his goals in so many ways that we wouldn't expect. I'm not saying he would actively lead someone into this situation, but in my case, I really prayed about it and I felt peaceful about the decision. I realise it may be a controversial thing to say, and I'm not clear on it all myself, but I believe that He handed the choice over to me because He knew how it would pan out, and He knew He could work through it and bring me to where He needed me to be. Yes, it was a harder route than He might have chosen for me, but as the person I was then, I think it was probably necessary.
I think I went off on a tangent, a little bit. Thoughts appreciated...
7. Paul said the following at 6:46 PM on Sep 17:
Mike, wow, that's a really interesting comment, as I recently asked a girl out, was rejected, and have found out that she's dating someone outside the faith... sometimes I wonder whether some christian girls really want christian guys or if they're looking for someone who's a little more of a maverick, more exciting. Sure seemed like it in my case...
8. Jess said the following at 7:29 PM on Sep 17:
although this article was another everday example of why Christians shouldn't be involved in missionary dating, this article doesn't really encourage Christian men and women(some of whom have been waiting for YEARS) to meet the right person (and when I say right person, I mean the right person according to kingdom standards,not superficial ones).
I can relate to this dilemma very well. I go to a church where there are an abundance of single, Christian men, but I don't want ANY single, Christian man willing to marry me. And I definitely don't want some idealized fantasy of "The One". But what I am looking for seems to be in s vacuum. Many men my age (not all) seem to lack maturity and an overall willingness to be an adult. I seem to attract either men old enough to be my father (and are in mid life crisis mode) or little boys who have barely gone over their 18th birthday.
So I really have three options: continue waiting, even after the opportunity to have children has passed, date someone older, or simply simply plan out their lives as a single, giving up hope.
And what even frustrates me more is how those who are in relationships seem to always want to dispense advice on how to deal when they're not experiencing it themselves.
9. brx said the following at 7:37 PM on Sep 17:
"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Depending on where one draws the line between developing friendship, dating, courting, etc, the argument could be made that God began persuing a relationship and marriage with us before even we had become 'believers'.
It's not without many problems, but I have seen a number of people date non-Christians who later came to know Christ, primarily through the witness of their significant-other and I've seen the same in a few marriages. God can do amazing things and who am I to tell another that God can not. I do advise that a mixed-faith (or lack-of) couple include wise counseling in their relationship to explore and understand the issues of conflicting faith that can (and likely will) arise; so the believer will not being going in blind. They need to understand that no person can _make_ another believe and that being in a life commitment to someone who has a different life value and purpose in their core than you do can be pretty difficult.
10. Catherine said the following at 7:56 PM on Sep 17:
God may work in mysterious ways, but the command "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers" (2 Corinthians 6:14) isn't just a suggestion! The reason Paul said this was because it's really tough to become one flesh with someone who can't understand that which is most important in your life! Also, Suzanne's point about being influenced by them is true - you are sharing your whole life with them, so of course some transference will occur, most likely to the detriment of your faith life.
11. Ted Slater said the following at 8:18 PM on Sep 17:
brx -- your logic is consistent with the WWJD movement, but not with the counsel of Scripture.
We are called to imitate Christ, yes, but we're not expected to do everything He did. Jesus was called to be the Savior of the world; we are not. He is the Creator, and we are the created. He is without sin, and we are sinful. We succumb to temptations and peer pressure; He never has.
Probably best to simply obey 2 Corinthians 6:14, even if Christ seemed to do something different.
12. Jennifer said the following at 8:24 PM on Sep 17:
Mike said: "I wonder if this is in part because some of those Christian women have been approached by Christian men but have for whatever reason turned them down for dates/relationships and now find that the only ones willing to date (or women willing to go out with) are non-Christian men."
Just as even the godliest guys don't ask out every woman in their midst--fair enough-- women don't say yes to every man that asks. Unfortunately, men bear the upfront burden of rejection, just as women bear the burden of not being asked by guys they hope would have asked (as well as the dilemma of "do I give him a chance, and risk having to be the bad guy if my feelings don't catch up with his?)
So yes, some of those women would have turned down some of those good Christian guys. But as Sara pointed out, the men benefit from the abundance of choice, a situation that exists very much at the expense of the women. A surplus of women means that the guys can (or think they can) ask someone who might be more appealing than they might ordinarily be able to get in the secular world, whereas the dearth of men put the surplus women in a situation where they are more likely to have to deal with the dilemma of "settle or not to settle". I hate to reduce matters of the heart to cold, hard supply and demand, but that's exactly what you have wherever there's a gender imbalance. And it would be the same for men if the gender ratio was reversed.
I can imagine that the idea that single women are facing a shortage of potential husbands in the church is pretty hard to swallow if you're a guy that's had little luck. And women would do well to give a guys a chance who might be a "borderline" candidate. But there's a limit to how much a woman can compromise her standards, even during the worst dating drought:
THE CHURCH IS NOT A BARGAIN BASEMENT FOR SURPLUS WOMEN!!
13. Leah said the following at 9:20 PM on Sep 17:
P&P: the example you gave is not missionary dating. You were both Christians. Or are you saying Baptists aren't Christians?
---
And if I hear one more guy moaning "woe is me, none of the women want to date me, they only want non-Christians because they're more 'maverick' and 'exciting", I will blow up. Stop blaming the women. Yes, it's not entirely your fault, but stop acting like the problem lies entirely with women's attitudes! Christian men can be just as exciting as non-Christians, and if you're not, that's your problem.
---
brx: there is no two ways about this issue! "the argument could be made that God began persuing a relationship and marriage with us before even we had become 'believers'"-- of course he did! The minor difference being we are not God. And being committed to someone of a different belief is "difficult"? No kidding! That might be why God explicitly commanded us not to do it.
People, please, understand- this whole "let's look at it from two angles" thing is suitable for situations where the bible is not explicit.
This is NOT one of those situations.
14. Charllotte said the following at 9:48 PM on Sep 17:
Perhaps in select cases, "missionary dating" works? I fell head over heels for my current boyfriend 7 years ago when I first met him, and he kind of took advantage of my eagerness to listen to him by gently and lovingly introducing me to the Gospel. Now I've got a thriving life in Christ. =) Maybe the playing field is different as people get older (we met in middle school...), but I'm simply sharing my experience.
15. Laura said the following at 10:09 PM on Sep 17:
Claudia - AMEN!!! :-)
16. Stephanie said the following at 10:32 PM on Sep 17:
I feel that our primary goal in having any sort of friendship with anyone (same gender or different gender) who is not a Christian is to point them to Jesus. Of course, I know people who married non-Christians and God used them to bring their spouse to Christ, and that's great. But my personal conviction for myself is that I should never get even close to that -- not because of the effect it would have on me, but because of the effect it might have on the other person. How can I be pointing him to Jesus if he is distracted by .... ME?! I find it unthinkable to encourage a non-Christian guy's interest in me when that could be potentially detrimental to him seeing Jesus through me. Perhaps simply because I struggle with being attracted to the wrong guys and wanting male attention too much, but I consider having a romantic relationship with a non-Christian man very dangerous to his potential salvation.
17. Childless single woman said the following at 10:57 PM on Sep 17:
Rather than illogical, dating outside of “evangelical church” circles makes perfect logic.
God does not make mathematical gender ratio errors. The fact that our churches are heavily female (and I would suggest the percentages are far worse than 60/40%. Especially if you are considering marriage-minded single men with marriage-minded single women. And this percentage only worsens with age. As women “wait” and “wait” marriage becomes less, not more, likely), indicates to me that many of the men who make up the Body of Christ are out there – they are just not in our churches.
I think the criteria should be “Does this man believe in God?” (The same God.) Yes? Well then he is fine to date and even marry! Remember, the Bible says do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. Let’s not add more to Scripture than is already there. We did that with “the gift of singleness” and look what trouble that has got us into (thank you Carolyn McCulley, amongst others!).
What is clear is that our churches are very bad at reaching out to men in the world. In fact, many don’t even appear to try, preferring to take the course of least resistance and focus the majority of ministries on women and children.
Let’s look at this from a Kingdom perspective. I would actually go so far as to say that Christian women have a duty to reach out to men in the world. Who else is willing to do it? Are we just going to neglect to bring in the harvest of a whole generation of men, simply because our leaders and the men in the church, are not interested, or not capable, of doing it? Shame on all of us!
On the contrary, dating outside of evangelical circles (but actually inside the Body of Christ) makes all kinds of sense:
Single Christian women will find husbands and fathers for their children before they become barren (and remember barrenness is in direct contrast to the creation mandate to be fruitful and multiply).
Single Christian men will have a bit of competition and that will be good for them and encourage them in their masculinity.
Believing men, that previously felt alienated from the Body, will be encouraged in their faith.
Our churches will be stronger for having all the traits of leadership, boldness and courage that a full ratio of men would bring.
When you look at all these advantages, and weigh them up against lifelong barren spinsterhood (which is what dating only inside evangelical church circles will mean for most women), well ladies, it seems clear to me what we should be doing.
Incidentally Mike and Paul: Are Christian women are not allowed to reject any Christian man? The fact that he is Christian should be enough? I wonder if you would say the same if the tables were turned? Let’s pretend for one moment that it was the woman’s job to pursue the man. Would you be happy to accept any and every woman that just happened to approach you?
18. BDB said the following at 12:37 AM on Sep 18:
Jo wrote:
>>I realise it may be a controversial thing to say, and I'm not clear on it all myself, but I believe that He handed the choice over to me because He knew how it would pan out, and He knew He could work through it and bring me to where He needed me to be.<<
Yes, I agree with you. A related discussion could take place about whether two people in very different places in their spiritual walk would be considered "unequally yoked." Say, if one has been a Christian for 20+ years and turned major decisions like their career over to God, while the other goes to church and doesn't swear, but can't conceive of giving up control on major decisions to God. Or even a simpler example, such as one wanting to do a daily devotional, and the other just wanting to watch reality TV. Being around a nominal Christian on a daily basis can really give you an appreciation for the difference when someone is actively seeking to follow Jesus.
19. Ro said the following at 12:50 AM on Sep 18:
If there are so few Christian men - what are the Christian women to do? They either remain single and lonely, or choose a partner that isn't Christian. I think this is better than being alone. Is being lonely God's best for us instead?
20. Theo K said the following at 2:04 AM on Sep 18:
Catherine just said it.
God specifically forbids all intimate relationships with unbelievers.
It is a great sin to try to distort the will of God in a matter that He has been absolutely clear.
I am really sorry for all those that, while claiming to be Christians, have idolazed and elevated marriage over and above obeying God's revealed will.
21. Marci said the following at 7:51 AM on Sep 18:
Catherine,
I wholeheartedly agree with you. It is disheartening to hear so many people disregard the command not to be "unequally yoked with unbelievers" as a suggestion that they therefore do not have to heed. As Christians, we either believe we are to follow the commands of the Bible - or we don't.
The problem is, if an individual doesn't want to follow the commands in the Bible, it's better to stop professing to be Christian - this just makes a mockery of us, as unsaved people say 'if Christians don't even believe and follow the commands in their Bible, why should I'?
I do not care what is convenient or not! Whatever happened to acknowledging that God's ways are higher than ours? In my church, there was a lady who got married - and remained pure until her wedding day - at 40+ years old. And you know what? When she got married, she married a minister in the Bahamas, and they had a wedding which reporters called the wedding of the century!
Now, if she had used human wisdom instead of God's, would this have been the result? What would've happened to this beautiful story of God's faithfulness if she's just gone out an married an unbeliever because she figured God was moving a bit too slow for her liking?
We either believe our wisdom is higher than God's - or we believe God's wisdom is higher than ours: there is NO inbetween zone.
A note to those who say that marriages with unbelivers seem to work: I think as Christians we should not just be looking for a marriage. We should be looking for a marriage the mirrors the relationship of Christ with his Bride. A union between a Christian and an unbeliever has no potential to fulfill this. Also, two people staying together is not neccessarily the story of a stong, 'God's best' marriage.
As well, I've personally known 3 mixed faith (Christian and something else)couples who married; unfortunately, two have split, and one is in a floundering marriage. The point here is that even if two people stay together for 10 years, this means nothing - at year 11, they could divorce. And what would be more terrible that going through a divorce knowing that you were doomed to second best because you violated God's command?!? It's one thing when bad things happen to good people; it's quite another when you have to also deal with the guilt of violating God's command. It painful for the person, and the family and close friends - it just amplifies the whole grieving process in a nasty, nasty way.
Blessings...
22. Matt said the following at 7:53 AM on Sep 18:
The questions that I want each of you that are considering dating non-Christians (or those who claim to be Christians but show no fruit in their life - Galatians 5:22-23) to ask yourself are these. Is it even possible for someone who does not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ to know how to sacrificially love others, as we are called to love our spouse? Also, if a potential mate does not know the Lord, how can a believer ever feel stable in that relationship, when we know that Jesus Christ is the only way to a stable existence? Just some things to think about. :)
23. Emily said the following at 7:53 AM on Sep 18:
I dated a guy who didn't share my beliefs, for almost 2 years. Granted I wasn't exactly walking the Christian walk the entire time. But once I recieved some advice from a few great friends and realized that this man could never ultimately fulfill God's design for marriage, I knew it had to end. Sometimes I don't think followers of Christ think through the consequences to dating someone who is not like-minded spiritually.
Yes I gained a lot through this experience. But I also suffered tremendously through it, emotionally and spiritually. Because of this relationship I had no clue what a man was really supposed to treat me like and had come to the conclusion that I was being treated the best I would get. It took 5 years of not dating, a lot of praying, and a lot of great friends to realize my potential and eventually being ready to date someone again.
It's not worth toying with in my opinion. Ultimately a marriage should be based on a solid relationship that grows together in Christ, not spending the whole "dating" period trying to get the other to understand you spiritually. It's just playing with fire.
24. Eric said the following at 8:40 AM on Sep 18:
First of all, I am skeptical of the 60-40 female to male statistic. Where did this figure come from? I think it could be a fabrication produced by journalists trying to further their arguments.
25. P&P said the following at 8:49 AM on Sep 18:
Leah: It comes down to shared values and beliefs in scriptures. I'm from a very liberal group and he was from a very conservative one. Our values and beliefs were at opposite ends of the spectrum and he kept trying to convert me to his beliefs.
26. Ted Slater said the following at 9:26 AM on Sep 18:
This 60/40 ratio being tossed around is false.
While more women may attend church than men, there are more never-married Christian men than never-married Christian women. See the following for more information:
Plenty of Men to Go Around, Part 1
Plenty of Men to Go Around, Part 2
27. Carrie said the following at 9:39 AM on Sep 18:
BDB said:
"Or even a simpler example, such as one wanting to do a daily devotional, and the other just wanting to watch reality TV. Being around a nominal Christian on a daily basis can really give you an appreciation for the difference when someone is actively seeking to follow Jesus."
Thank you for saying that!! I've been wondering about this very thing the last several days. I feel arrogant and prideful for making judgement calls on some guys, but at the same time I know that as a woman I should not be leading. I am friends with some very masculine men and I feel terrible for judging their masculinity, but God's ways are "too lofty for me attain and too wonderful too understand". Eventhough I am not perfect by any means, I do need to set standards. It is not so much a mentality of "Well, I deserve x,y, and z!". It is more like "Oh my, I want to be worthy of x,y, and z so I should start practicing ____, ____, and ____."
I had a good relationship talk with a friend of mine recently and she reminded that I need not "settle" for anything. It is very tough when your single friends begin to be a dying breed. I have begun to wonder if I asking too much. However, I have learned that the Lord is pruning me and shaping me into a woman that is going to knock the socks off some guy one day.
28. nikki said the following at 9:43 AM on Sep 18:
I'm really surprised that the primary purpose of marriage has been ignored, both in this article and following comments. Sure, there are plenty of practical reasons not to marry outside one's faith. But none is sufficient to prohibit interfaith marriage, though; they only stand to advise against it. (Of course, all the advice in the world isn't half as meaningful as the specific command not to be unequally yoked.)
The reason marriage to unbelievers is not good is the same reason marriage to believers is good: marriage is an earthy picture of God's relationship with us through Christ. As Christ gave up his life for his "bride," the church, so is a husband supposed to love his wife sacrificially and be willing to give his life for her. And as the church submits to God's authority, so a wife chooses to place herself under her husband's leadership. All in all, marriage is an exercise in personal holiness as well as a graphic demonstration of how our relationship with God changes our lives. THAT is the point of marriage, not only selfless love or a general bring-God-the-glory (both worthy causes to be sure). But the true end is far deeper and more specific than that! An unbeliever cannot display God's attributes and shouldn't be expected to. So a marriage in which God is not the head of BOTH PARTNERS is a marriage which ALREADY, INHERENTLY fails to uphold its PRIMARY purpose: to demonstrate God's relationship with us.
There is no successful marriage when God is not the center. (The definition of "successful marriage" has plenty more to do than whether or not it ends in divorce!!)
29. Shazia said the following at 10:13 AM on Sep 18:
The following are not my own words, but from a post at another forum from a woman who married an unbeliever, and from her experience, would not recommend it to someone else. Here were some of her concerns that she told someone, who was going to marry a non-Christian:
"If you choose to marry this man, are you willing to pay the price. A husband that does not go to church with you (even if he promises to now, after marriage, things always change), a husband who does not believe in Jesus as Savior, a husband that won't teach your children about Jesus, a man who will not stand as the spiritual leader in your home, which means you go to church alone, you pack the kids up and go alone to church, you sit in church and see other couples and families worshiping God together, you going alone to church functions (if you are allowed to go). You wanting to give to the church and not being able too because you both decide what the money gets spent on."
Other concerns she addressed to the lady who was going to marry a non-Christian:
"Goals: To have children
- Where do your priorities stand with these questions, where are his?: How do you raise them? Do you go to Church? Do you pray before meals? Do you read Bible stories to them? Do you teach them about creation and evolution? Do you teach them how to pray? Do you allow them to participate in things like Halloween? Will they be allowed to drink alcohol? What kind of movies are they allowed to watch? Who decides what cartoon they can watch? How will they dress? Will you teach them that sex before marriage is right or wrong? Will you be able to teach them that Jesus is the only way to eternal life in heaven or will he want to teach them that good works will get them there? Does he want you to stay home with the children or work?
Goals: To give finances and time to the church.
- Where do you stand? Where does he stand?: Save for a new TV, house, holiday or give 10% to the church? Help with Sunday School or sleep in? Go partying on Saturday night or stay home and be up in time for church? Go to Bible Study/Kinship/Home group during the week or stay home? Give to missions or spend the money on something material?
Goals: Spend time in the Word, in Prayer and Devotional time at home each day. Do you want to do that? What would he think of that? Will he allow you to do that or will he be jealous because you spend this time with the Lord?
Goals: To follow the Lord's leading in your life? (for example: teach Sunday School, lead youth group, help in the kitchen, missions). Will you feel free to follow the Lord's leading? Will he allow you to follow the Lord's leading? Does he even care? Will he stand in the way of that obedience to the Lord?
There are so many things...right now, I want to put on a small addition to our home so that when my Mom & Tots group comes over for Bible study I will have room to house them all. My husband is completely opposed to this because he doesn't think its a good enough reason...sharing prayer time and studying the Bible is a waste of time to him. We have come to a compromise...I can do it but he will NOT be helping in any way, I have to pay for it, find the people to do it and oversee it. In addition to that, I still have to run my home, look after two children (one with special needs), cook, clean, do the laundry, etc. He will not help on any of these things because he believes that he has provided for us, and if I want extra then I must bare the load. Are you willing to walk in these shoes? It may not be the same issue but I can guarantee...there will be an issue."
I don't know about you, but these concerns addressed by this person is enough to really make me think. I never used to like the statement "It's better to be single than to be married to the wrong person" because I always thought that the statement had a bias towards singleness, and maybe it does, and that is why I seldom espouse that opinion, but in the case of being unequally yoked, I couldn't agree more with the statement. That would be for me that loneliest marriage on the face of the earth.
30. Marci said the following at 10:31 AM on Sep 18:
Shazia,
Amazing! Thank you so much for sharing those insights - it puts a realistic spin on what marrying an unbeliever can entail. Some people truly do not think about all those day to day problems that can arise.
Blessings...
31. tmd said the following at 10:46 AM on Sep 18:
Sara said: "You'd have to have a pretty hard heart to not, at least, deeply sympathize with women who choose to marry outside the faith."
You have got to be kidding. If we sympathize for people disobeying Scripture in one area, then we have to sympathize for disobeying Scripture in every area.
Don't use misandry as a means to support your argument. Men can't be blamed for everything. And likewise, women can't be blamed for everything. Whether there's a "60-40" split is still to be determined. I've never been in a church with that problem. In any case, I think God is bigger than you give him credit for. If you want to be married he'll provide. Just make sure not to be bitter or "missionary date" as that'll drive off the kind of guy you're looking for. Trust me, guys can tell.
32. BDB said the following at 11:38 AM on Sep 18:
Charlotte wrote:
>>and he kind of took advantage of my eagerness to listen to him by gently and lovingly introducing me to the Gospel.<<
That does kind of illustrate a spiritual leadership question, doesn't it? Maybe it works when men are taking the initiative to convert someone...
Childless single woman wrote:
>>Single Christian men will have a bit of competition and that will be good for them and encourage them in their masculinity.<<
The problem is that they are competing under different sets of rules. As an easy example, if the Christian guy is giving $500/month to his church, and the non-Christian guy is spending that $500/month on his girlfriend, it's not a level playing field. (OK, he'll probably be spending half that upgrading his car.)
33. Angela said the following at 12:12 PM on Sep 18:
As a single Christian woman in my 30s, I'm disappointed. It seems to me that Christian men often judge by outward appearances, rather than seeking a woman whose heart is set on serving the Lord. I know I'm not a great beauty, but I'm not ugly either. I try to take care of myself, but it seems that the Christian men I encounter are always dating beautiful women who aren't passionate about God. It's frustrating.
34. Jennifer said the following at 12:20 PM on Sep 18:
TED,
YOUR CONTENTION THAT THE 60/40 RATIO BEING TOSSED AROUND IS FALSE, IS IN ITSELF FALSE.
To extrapolate from census data that there are more never married Christian men than never married Christian women, but admit in finer print that more women attend church? Come on.
All of these women have been told right from the start of their walk that it's wrong, wrong, wrong, to be with anyone who's less than a church-going, deeply committed "growing daily in Christ" evangelical conservative Christian. And there just aren't enough of these guys to go around. Look through the posts on this thread and see for yourself how they have been taught to define "Christian enough".
So there are unchurched guys out there who believe the right things. What are these women supposed to do with that? You've already denounced "missionary dating".
As much as I uphold the "equally yoked" ideal, here are some other things that bother me:
Claiming that 2 Cor 6:14 says that that Christians cannot marry non-Christians, when in fact marriage is not mentioned ANYWHERE in the book of 2 Cor. It's tone is entirely corporate. Historically, people have always aspired to marry within their faith system, and when choices were limited -- compromised (of course being at the peril of the greater good not to do so). Note that 1 Cor 7:39 is addressed to those who have already had the opportunity to marry.
Another thing that bothers me: the suggestion of some posters here that only "two Christian" marriages are successful. It seems awfully bigoted to dismiss the happy long term unions of those in other religions (or no religion). Especially when our own divorce rates are so high.
Church leaders routinely exaggerate the consequences of marrying outside the fold. The research-based evidence that mixed unions are "less successful" is not consistent. Anecdotes of those for whom it did not working out usually involve some other risk factor. Of course if you marry a non-believer who's also verbally abusive, you're bound to have problems! But many of these problems can also exist in a marriage between two believers, as well. For an honest treatment of this issue, we also need to look at the consequences of not marrying.
Some of the men posting here have made the observation that women in the church are the ones who are dating outside the faith, which is unfair for two reasons. Perhaps because single women are such a large population at church, there's more to make this observation from, but I don't think women who attend church are dating outside the fold any more than the guys who are attending. You must also take into consideration that the guys who aren't there (and thus who cause the numbers imbalance) are already dating outside the church, thus putting women into that dilemma of "do I or don't I"?
35. debbie maken said the following at 12:25 PM on Sep 18:
One thing forgotten in this discussion seems to be that marriage is a universal concept -- every culture practices it as part of the Creation mandate. Only the Christian has the added spousal qualification of marrying a fellow believer so that the two are one spiritually, as well as on every other plane -- emotionally, physically . . . . Even pagan marriages experience "oneness," albeit a curbed version. We do have a tendency to overly spiritualize marriage and ignore the earthly nature of it or dismiss that non-Christian marriages could bring satisfaction to its members.
What most single Christian women want is that oneness (and can you blame them for they were created for it). When the choice is made to enlarge the pool, they are actually saying we will take some "oneness" now, as opposed to none, or as opposed to being a wheelchair bride.
Shazia's post is sobering in reminding us of the costs associated with wedding an unbeliever, but there is no way to deny the costs associated with prolonged singleness as well. Both realities have their own daily pain, and there are no easy answers. While I agree that marrying outside of the faith is a Scriptural violation, in my compassion, I can understand why some single women feel as if it is their last resort.
Debbie Maken
36. M.R. said the following at 12:39 PM on Sep 18:
I, for one, agree with Childless Single Woman (CSW for short). The Holy Spirit knows what He's doing in the world, and within our churches. Sure the 60/40 ratio may not apply in all churches, but in my experience it does, does, does!!! and then some. Women are always more inclined to religiosity then men... and I have actually seen "missionary dating" bring two men into the church.
Neither me nor my sister tried actively to do this - we didn't have "missionary dating" on our minds (although we have had friends joke about it, and every time I'm seeing someone they say, "bringing another back to the fold, are we?"). We simply saw two good (i.e. principled, possessing values and judgment) men who were head over heels for us, who respected us, and who gradually, through our inadvertent influence, became fascinated with our spiritual lives. Again, we didn't TRY to missionary date - we simply fell in love with the goodness in these men, and gave it a try, all the while keeping close to the Body of Christ, and feeling the responsibility to foster an even CLOSER relationship to Christ because we knew we were influencing someone we cared about enormously with our lives - also, we knew that this was a situation in which the influence could go both ways, so we were all the more aware of a heightened need for Christ and vigilance.
Let me stress that these were two good, very good men, who just happened not to have the benefit of church-going families. In turn, what they fell in love with in us were our witness to Christ. Their principles were strong: I remember my "unbeliever" boyfriend even reminding ME, and holding ME, accountable if I was tempted to slip, even in the little things. Because he cared about me, he cared about me sticking to my beliefs.
This scenario doesn't always pan out, of course - one must be vigilant, one must be aware. And I did feel the vacuum when my boyfriend didn't understand something about my faith. I do not recommend this course of action! But I also don't recommend being legalistic about it, and limiting God's will - especially when you're just DATING! At the end of my and my sister's relationships, both of our boyfriends were (and still are) practicing Catholics, and we would've been ready to marry them if other personality issues hadn't arisen. You must judge the receptiveness of your potential spouse to your message, your beliefs; this is what dating is for.
Do I recommend missionary dating? No! The only thing I could recommend is what I've tried to do: stay close, very close, to the Body of Christ; do not fool yourself with sentimental or romantic visions that you can change this person yourself(which really do amount to vanity); partake of the sacraments, and stay open to the Holy Spirit, who is in part responsible for putting specific people in your life. Do NOT fear pain, sacrifice, or hard times, because all those will come whoever you marry... fear SIN! And it is NOT a sin to date unbelievers if you do not compromise yourself or your beliefs!
37. nikki said the following at 12:40 PM on Sep 18:
Claiming that 2 Cor 6:14 says that that Christians cannot marry non-Christians, when in fact marriage is not mentioned ANYWHERE in the book of 2 Cor. It's tone is entirely corporate.
If the tone is entirely corporate, and it is referring to believers having business relations with unbelievers (which I think you and I both do), then how much MORE should the same principle apply to marriage? If God doesn't want us to do business with the unredeemed, how in the world could you argue that it is okay to legally bind yourself to them for the rest of your life??!
Another thing that bothers me: the suggestion of some posters here that only "two Christian" marriages are successful. It seems awfully bigoted to dismiss the happy long term unions of those in other religions (or no religion). Especially when our own divorce rates are so high.
A truly successful marriage is one that brings glory to God through his design for marriage to reflect our relationship with him. Just because a couple is happy or has been married 50 years does not mean they have done this. I realize there are many interfaith marriages, or non-faith marriages, that last longer, on average, than the typical two-Christian marriage. But these are not any more glorifying to God than a marriage that breaks up after a year. Neither of those marriages is fulfilling its purpose. Side purposes include joy, fulfilment, and companionship. Those are gifts from our Father, so we can enjoy the thing that stretches and challenges us. But they should not be confused with what makes a God-honoring marriage.
38. Nate said the following at 12:58 PM on Sep 18:
Do you think part of the imbalance might be that there are more older women in the church? I mean, just given that women tend to live longer than men ... That'd be one way to reconcile the data.
39. Caleb said the following at 1:27 PM on Sep 18:
Hey women, if you want to find a bigger pool of Christian men and get married, just go over to Africa. The African Christian guys hit on our missions team the whole time we were there. :) Mexico is another good place to go, as well as China. With China's large imbalance of men, they need more women. You could get an overseas job teaching English and working as an undercover missionary and meet Christian men that way. And Chinese Christians are the real deal. There are plenty of ways, you just have to be creative and get outside your comfort zone.
40. Jennifer said the following at 1:42 PM on Sep 18:
"A truly successful marriage is one that brings glory to God through his design for marriage to reflect our relationship with him. Just because a couple is happy or has been married 50 years does not mean they have done this...these are not any more glorifying to God than a marriage that breaks up after a year."
I think this is a classic example of what Debbie referred to as our "tendency to overly spiritualize marriage and ignore the earthly nature of it or dismiss that non-Christian marriages could bring satisfaction to its members."
Remember, there's another reason for marriage: that we do not fall into sin (1 Cor 7:2). It's just as much (probably more) a practical matter as spiritual.
As for 2 Cor 6:14, nor does it refer to "business relations". It's about congregational affiliations. Verses 16 and 17 go on to say "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you". Think of a modern day church merger: your church should not merge with a Hindu temple, especially in light of its custom of offerings to gods/goddesses. Better to go with the E-Frees, as ours did! Or if a Christian church arises out of Muslim mosque, it should turn its back on all remnants of Islam and turn straight towards the Christian Church.
41. Jennifer E. Jones said the following at 2:31 PM on Sep 18:
The 60/40 ratio isn’t anything to throw a fit over.
Collect all the single women in your church; weed out the bitter ones who are so jaded by dating that they won’t give anyone a chance; take out the girls who are looking for the non-existent perfect man, and then remove the girls who have steady boyfriends and/or are simply not dating at this time… I think that levels the playing field a bit.
You can find true love in the Body of Christ. It just takes a while, that's all.
42. Melissa D. said the following at 2:46 PM on Sep 18:
The reality is, if you're not marrying someone who shares a faith foundational to your being, the belief cannot be that strong to begin with. If we love God more than anyone or anything, how can we submit to a spouse who doesn't?
43. skp said the following at 2:53 PM on Sep 18:
When I first met my boyfriends mother her first question was "what religion are you?" When I answered Lutheran (my boyfriend happened also to be Lutheran) she wanted to know what synod. Several of the posts here have mentioned Baptists dating liberal Christians and evangelicals dating Catholics as if they were missionary dating. I wonder if two people dating from different synods of the Lutheran church would also constitute "missionary' dating I passed the test- we were from the same synod. But interestinly enough, as we've gotten older he's become more conservative in his religious views and I've become more liberal.
I guess everyone has to decide for himself what unequally yolked is.
44. BDB said the following at 3:02 PM on Sep 18:
Jennifer E. Jones wrote:
>>weed out the bitter ones who are so jaded by dating that they won’t give anyone a chance; take out the girls who are looking for the non-existent perfect man<<
Hey - wouldn't it be great if everyone had to wear a button showing their affiliation? That would save a lot of time...
45. Jennifer said the following at 3:10 PM on Sep 18:
Jennifer to Jennifer:
The problem is that you'd have to do the same thing with the guys, too!
46. Suzanne said the following at 3:53 PM on Sep 18:
BDB: Funny.
47. Patricia said the following at 4:37 PM on Sep 18:
Skp has a good point. I currently am dating a Catholic and I am Protestant-attending a Reformed Church now although I attended an evangelical curch for a year previously. I don't consider it missionary dating-we both believe in the Nicene Creed although if we end up marrying each other, one of us would have to switch. While this may not work for all couples, I have found myself blessed and enriched by Catholic teachings and practices.
48. Marisa said the following at 6:36 PM on Sep 18:
What I'm having a hard time understanding is how a truly dedicated, committed Christian can manage to attract and keep the "love" and attention of a nonbeliever.
I mean, I've known a few really great (but decidedly nonbelieving) guys. Some have even shown more than friendly interest in me in the beginning stages of interaction, but as time goes on and they find that I actually talk to God (gasp!) and believe that what the Bible says is true (surely not!)....that interest usually fades. Forget about the whole no sex/no fooling around thing...I'm still trying to get the dust out of my eyes from the tracks made.
All things being said and done, I don't believe that if a Christian is truly living to please God that an unbeliever of the opposite sex is gonna want to stick around for too long. If the attraction to godliness and good character is there, praise the Lord and pass the person to a member of their own gender that can help them explore and nurture it.
49. Lauren said the following at 6:41 PM on Sep 18:
I just had a DTR with a guy and realized we can't be together because he's a non-believer. I've tried to mission to him as a friend and was thinking I could do it as something more but I'm not strong enough in my faith for that.
I would think dating non-believers would also be extremely burdensome on one's purity as well. I've been dumped several times because my non-believer boyfriend couldn't get past wanting something I couldn't offer him. It is a cruel and entirely unnecessary punishment for doing nothing wrong.
I'm only 22 but I do worry about finding a husband; who he'll be, where he is, what he's doing. In my mind he loves the lord with everything he does, in my dreams he's the kind of man who can lead me and our family as the head of our house, and if he's not a Christian, where could he lead us? Where would his unconditional love and strength to provide for us come from if not from Christ? If both parents aren't believers how can a child be guided to grow in God?
I had to make the very very difficult choice to keep this guy around strictly as my friend, but it's in the hope that a better guy will come around. And being "better" includes believing.
50. John said the following at 7:36 PM on Sep 18:
Patricia
Dating a catholic is dating a non-christian, non-believer.
If one of you had to "switch", it would be you, if you were to follow the bibilical model, since he would be the head, except, since you're not following the biblical model already, it wouldn't really matter.
If you did "switch", you would be denying Christ by becoming apart of a non-christian church.
skp does not have a good point and is seriously misinformed
skp said "I guess everyone has to decide for himself what unequally yolked is."
no, each person has to obey Christ and not be unequally yoked.
For those using the excuse of "not enough good men", seek first His kingdome and then all of these things will be added to you.
These things includes your future spouse.
51. BDB said the following at 8:28 PM on Sep 18:
Marisa wrote:
>>All things being said and done, I don't believe that if a Christian is truly living to please God that an unbeliever of the opposite sex is gonna want to stick around for too long.<<
Yeah, that's probably right. I had to stop myself from asking a woman once, "So, you drink alcohol every day?" I just knew I needed to find a better way to phrase that.
I still think that color-coordinated buttons would be a good idea. It would be like the terrorist warning system:
Lavender - I want to be a mom
Red - I'm Bitter
Blue - I live to work
Yellow - I live to party
Green - I'm really trying to live the Christian Disciplines
(etc.)
52. Jacob M. said the following at 9:22 PM on Sep 18:
I echo Marisa's point in wondering how all these Christians are managing to get into relationships with non-Christians. (By "Christians" I mean orthodox Christians, not liberal Christians.) My experience with today's young adults, women included (or perhaps especially), is that most are so liberal they would never want to have anything to do with someone who is socially/culturally conservative. I mean, when they find out I think abortion is wrong or I don't support same-sex marriage, they see me as evil incarnate and the apotheosis of everything that's wrong with the world. The last thing they'd want to do is date me!
53. Megan said the following at 9:28 PM on Sep 18:
It is shocking to see the complete disregard for the children that would be brought up in these unions! How selfish to put your own needs above those of your future children. I cannot imagine not being able to trust my husband to bring up our children in the faith. Sure, you can follow them around and tell them that what their father says isn't true, but how can that be good for a child? And what if something should happen to you and you 're not around to raise them? You are dooming that child to bad example of a what a godly father and husband is supposed to be like. Is your happiness worth the suffering a daughter might face without a Christian father to show her what kind of man she is supposed to marry? Or give her a glimpse of the relationship with our Heavenly Father? Is your happiness worth the struggles your son would go through without a godly father to help him grow in his faith? Or show him how to be that godly husband and father?
This selfish thinking that having a husband and kids through disobeying God not only makes a hard road for yourself, but it also makes life difficult for future generations. It is not just you that will miss out on God's design, it's your children and grandchildren and great grandchildren, etc.
54. Kelly said the following at 10:24 PM on Sep 18:
Jennifer said:
THE CHURCH IS NOT A BARGAIN BASEMENT FOR SURPLUS WOMEN!!
Amen to that! It's funny, whenever a new man walks into my church, with no wedding ring, and 'looks normal', you should see the single women swarm.
I may get into trouble for this comment, but ... there are single men at my church. There's the guy who's done time in prison, the obese guy, the guy who was gay and watched his partner die, the guy who has dated and broken up with every girl in the church, and the mentally disturbed guy. Now, I know these men are believers and their hearts belong to God, and they are my brothers in Christ, but do I see any of them as a compatible marriage match for me?
No. Now if I were in one of those categories listed above, I would consider them. "Equally yoked", in a sense. ;) Then again, I've given up hope of marrying a virgin like myself so maybe I'll someday have to compromise on these other categories too.
I see a lot of modern churches as a haven for broken people which is a wonderful thing, but these 'single men in church' aren't marriage material for your average woman. (Average woman as in never-married, little baggage, takes care of herself, and has a heart for Christ.)
***NOTE: The men who post here on Boundless are certainly not like those I've described above. I wish I belonged to your church! ***
55. Nicole said the following at 10:35 PM on Sep 18:
Let me throw a scenario at you all:
I've been great friends with a non-Christian man for the past 3 years. During that time I've invited him to church, given him a Bible, tried to be the 'best witness I could' and prayed a whole lot. At the same time, I've been very wary of having such a close friendship with a guy and maintained clear boundaries, often telling him that I see him as my 'brother'.
Unfortunately, that didn't work.
He recently declared his love for me, and I told him that I couldn't return it, despite having prayed about it etc.
Do I tell him that the biggest reason I won't date him is because he's a non-believer? (He's never come to church with me.) The last thing I want is a 'quasi conversion' just so he can be with me! I don't want him coming to church to please me, because if he doesn't come to Christ on his own terms, he could never be the husband I want.
And the husband I want is someone who will be strong in matters of faith, who will encourage me in my studies and prayer, who can be the head of the household while being accountable to God. I know these men exist; they married my friends.
56. Daniel said the following at 11:08 PM on Sep 18:
I think that nikki's first post hits the nail on the head: Marriage is a sign and a symbol, a foretaste if you will, of the future as God has promised and Jesus has accomplished.
The reason not to is the same reason why unbelievers shouldn't take communion, why God forbade Israel from intermarrying with the surrounding nations and why a church shouldn't "merge" with a Buddhists temple: It is a matter of identity.
We are God's people, the new Israel, the new human race sons and daughters of the better Adam, holy (set apart, consecrated, for the Lord).
Should the church follow a different Christ? Should you choose as the symbol of Christ in your marriage someone who doesn't recognize His Lordship? Should the church follow the first Adam? Would it also be ok for an unbeliever to pastor your Church as long as everyone was happy and the Church didn't split?
But read nikki's post.
Is a Christian woman required to accept advances from all Christian men? Of course not.
Can a non-christian be more "compatible" personality-wise than the Christians one knows? Yes.
The reason a relationship/marriage to an unbeliever can be satisfying is the same as why sex outside of marriage can feel good.
Saying that you have a good need and then meeting that need through a relationship to an unbeliever is similar to a guy who says that since no one has consented to marrying him he must satisfy his good need through pornography (guys should remember this especially).
All this probably sounds like rather cold comfort; but remember that being a Christian means that one can and should hope! Our belief isn't that the glass is half empty or half full but that it will be all full.
As C.S. Lewis said (more or less): "We are as children making mud pies in a puddle because we can't imagine a holiday at the beach". Marriage is but a sign-post to something far more glorious; that even the best Christian marriage is but a shadow of.
And it may well be that you never marry... but even if you are married: know that the sign points to a destination. And if you are a Christian God has promised you the destination.
57. Leah said the following at 12:27 AM on Sep 19:
John, you said "Dating a catholic is dating a non-christian, non-believer."
That is not true.
Now, let me say first up, that I beleive the Catholic church is seriously flawed. They have a lot of unbiblical principles. HOWEVER, I think there are 3 types of Catholics.
1) The type who call themselves Catholic but only enter church twice a year on Christmas and Easter- much like nominal Christians, and they are obviously not Christian.
2) Those who strictly adhere to the Catholic church's every principle- they're probably not true Christians.
3) Those who may have more traditional, "unnecessary" beliefs, but ultimately do not adhere to the Catholic church's unbiblical principles and are true gospel-believing Christians. And yes, they are out there. I've met them. They are perfectly dateable Christians.
58. Leah said the following at 12:33 AM on Sep 19:
Charllote: "Perhaps in select cases, "missionary dating" works?" No. No, no, no, no, no. Your boyfriend would have been just as capable of sharing the gospel with you whether you were dating or not. What if you'd started dating, you *hadn't* become a Christian, and the two of you had fallen in love? Should your boyfriend marry you, a non-Christian, when the bible explicitly says not to, or break up with you? Having to go through the heart break, and having wasted the last how many months/years courting you, when he could have been courting a girl who he could have married?
I'm not trying to sound insensitive, but the point remains: there is no person you can share the bible with inside a dating relationship, who you can't share the bible with *outside* one. If you want to convert someone, by all means, go for it. But do it outside a dating relationship. That way, there is no risk of getting to the point where you want to marry a non-Christian person.
59. Leah said the following at 12:44 AM on Sep 19:
Childless single woman: you indicate it is ok to marry someone outside the church circle, as long as they're Christian.
Yes and no. Is it permissable? Yes. But then again, everything is permissable, but not everything is good. God commands us to be involved in Christian fellowship so that we can grow. He also commands the man to be the leader in the relationship. If your man is not in a fellowship, he is probably hindering his growth. Therefore, not only is he disobeying God in that respect, but he probably won't make a great leader of a woman who *is* in a church, who is probably growing more than he is.
So, yes, it's allowable, but a good idea? No.
skp- I think we shouldn't say "decide for yourself what unequally yoked" is. It's quite clear that unequally yoked means being married to a non-Christian. So you just have to determine what a Christian is. What's a CHristian? Someone who believes the bible and has trusted in Jesus to forgive their sins and save them. Asking what denomination, synod, or creed you are is not going to tell you anything. You get Lutherans who are not christians, you get Baptists who are not Christians, you get Charismatics who are not Christians, etc. Just like you get people from all of the above who *are* Christians. "Unequally yoked" is not about formal institutions. It is about belief. About whether you are a Christian or not.
60. Theo K said the following at 2:16 AM on Sep 19:
Debbie Maken said: “What most single Christian women want is that oneness (and can you blame them for they were created for it). When the choice is made to enlarge the pool, they are actually saying we will take some "oneness" now, as opposed to none, or as opposed to being a wheelchair bride.
Shazia's post is sobering in reminding us of the costs associated with wedding an unbeliever, but there is no way to deny the costs associated with prolonged singleness as well. Both realities have their own daily pain, and there are no easy answers. While I agree that marrying outside of the faith is a Scriptural violation, in my compassion, I can understand why some single women feel as if it is their last resort. “
How can you say that there are no easy answers when you acknowledge “that marrying outside of the faith is a Scriptural violation”????
If God is first in your life there is ONLY ONE answer. Obey Him. If Christ isn’t Lord when it comes to marriage, then in all probability He isn’t Lord at all. Stop idolizing marriage. “Taking some ‘oneness’ now” as you say, at the expense of consciously and deliberately rebelling against the Lord can NEVER be an answer for a follower of Christ.
And before you start accusing me of who knows what, I ‘ll have you know that I am 31, never married, wanting to, still single and still trusting in God and putting Him first.
M.R. said: “And it is NOT a sin to date unbelievers if you do not compromise yourself or your beliefs!”
How sad… By forming intimate relationships with unbelievers you have already compromised the teaching of the Bible. STOP elevating human wisdom over the revealed will of God. STOP excusing sin.
Finally, this issue raises even more serious concerns.
As Marci said: “The problem is, if an individual doesn't want to follow the commands in the Bible, it's better to stop professing to be Christian - this just makes a mockery of us, as unsaved people say 'if Christians don't even believe and follow the commands in their Bible, why should I'?”
I agree. People rationalizing the sin of being unequally yoked should examine themselves very carefully in the light of scripture. Maybe this will cause them to think very seriously whether they are genuine Christians (in the biblical sense of the term…) or whether they are deceiving themselves.
61. Jo said the following at 2:19 AM on Sep 19:
John: You come across as extremely judgmental. Do Catholics get some stuff wrong? As a Protestant I obviously think they do, however I know Catholics who I absolutely regard as Christians because of their beliefs, values, relationship with God and the fruit I see in their lives. I wouldn't dare to deny their salvation because of the denomination they belong to.
Caleb: "Just" go over to Africa? As if that's a minor adjustment to make? I've got to say, I find your comment a little patronising... If God called me to Africa or Mexico or any of the other places you mentioned, then great. But you're saying I'm supposed to train in a new career, pack up my life and relocate halfway across the world simply in order to find a husband? I think there are limits, and that is waaay beyond mine.
BDB: Couldn't "I'm really trying to live the Christian disciplines" be purple? Green doesn't really suit me. :(
62. Patricia said the following at 6:34 AM on Sep 19:
John-I can't fully address your point because it would hijack the tread. However, I would simply encourage you to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church to find out what the Catholic doctrines actually say. Also, the Catholic Church does not teach the doctrine of female submission in marriage. It teaches that marriage is indissolvable, that the couple is unified with Christ as the head, and that each member of a family must serve the other members. I don't think female submission is the "biblical" model frankly and find it offensive that you find Catholics not to be Christians. Even the Catholic Church, which holds itself up as the Church Jesus founded, acknowledges that Protestants are brothers and sisters. I also did not date a Catholic because of a lack of men in Protestant Churches-I dated a Catholic because I was overwhelmed by his love for Christ, his family, and serving others. I do think that one should not marry an unbeliever-but I would include Catholics, liberal Protestants, etc under the label Christian. To me, it's more important that the individual is seeking to love and serve God rather than what denomination they subscribe too.
63. Carrie said the following at 7:53 AM on Sep 19:
Green isn't really my color, BDB, so if you could a more subtle color for "trying to live the Christian Disciplines" I'd appreciate it.
What about tan? I look good in tan. :)
64. Shazia said the following at 8:22 AM on Sep 19:
I didn't mean to imply that being single is BETTER than being married to the "wrong" person. I wrote in haste because when I write things, I don't write all the time as if I am writing for the professor to grade it:)
However, I will say that I do not think that either is better than the other, that the pain of each is equally visceral and represents some sort of emotional suicide. For me it's definitely an apple-orange comparison (or peach-pear :) )
My opinion on it is so strong because I myself have endured the consequences as a child of an unequally yoked marriage and that is why I would admonish against it. It's not just the couple that can suffer, but the children of course.
I guess why my opinion is also so strong is that my faith seems to be my life. About 90% of the time, if I were able to do this, I'd love to talk about God with my husband (I don't have any prospects yet). If I knew that I would be coming home from work each day (or he would be) and I can't feel the same liberty to talk about God, Jesus, and the Bible to him because he either is not a believer and can't really connect with it because he believes in his own thing, or he simply is repulsed by it and won't have anything to do with it. I'd love to be able to read and study the Bible every day if possible. How would I feel if I had to do this everyday for like an hour, alone? And he does his own reading, alone? Spouses these days don't have enough time to spend time already sometimes, why sacrifice that time outside of work?
I don't believe I'm overspiritualizing marriage, but simply defining marriage as it should be according to the Bible. Why is that overspiritualizing it? That's simply obeying God!
65. Jo said the following at 9:20 AM on Sep 19:
Nicole, you said: "Do I tell him that the biggest reason I won't date him is because he's a non-believer?"
My initial answer: No. Not if you can avoid it. I've been in that position - I told him I needed to be with someone who shared my beliefs, and he TOTALLY didn't get it. It made the whole process incredibly hard and painful, he thought I was making excuses, or that I was saying he wasn't good enough for me. I found it impossible to explain that it wasn't about that at all. He couldn't understand why a difference in beliefs was such a big deal to me because it wasn't to him. In his mind, he'd never rejected Christianity, he simply had no religious background and had never had a chance to weigh it up.
Eventually I caved and we dated for a while. And it didn't work. And he wound up realising that I was right all along, and that the difference in beliefs WAS a huge issue. But there's no way to communicate that to a nonbeliever without them experiencing it like that, I think.
See, I'm kind of torn on this, because I think it's best to be honest with people and if that's the reason you won't date him, perhaps you should tell him that. I guess if I was faced with the same situation again I would be honest again, but I'd do it a lot earlier. Just beware that however you explain it, he still may not understand, and it may hurt him a lot. So choose your words carefully...
66. Jo said the following at 9:21 AM on Sep 19:
Carrie: Snap! We made practically the same comment to BDB.
But tan? That doesn't really suit me either. I could compromise on peach?
67. Marci said the following at 9:37 AM on Sep 19:
Kelly,
Please don't dispair about meeting a Christian man who is a virgin. Commit it to God! My fiancee and I are both virgins, and will stay this way until we marry.
Do you know how many people - even Christian people - told me that marrying a virgin man was impossible??? But look how God has provided for me!
This is not to say that we shouldn't consider people who are 'second virgins' are marriage mates; the point is that with God, NOTHING is impossible. If he could find me a virgin (and not a person who's done everything but penetration, but someone who is truly pure) to marry, he could do it for you.
Blessings
68. Marisa said the following at 9:54 AM on Sep 19:
Shazia wrote:
>>I guess why my opinion is also so strong is that my faith seems to be my life.<<
Amen. Isn't that the whole point? If a marriage is about building a life together and working towards unity, how is that even possible with someone that doesn't understand and accept a fundamental part of who you are? IMO, even in the most tolerant of nonbelievers, inherent in their non-acceptance is the belief that your faith (if taken seriously) is based in myth, delusion, brainwashing or some combination thereof. Nevermind "over-spiritualizing" marriage. This is just speaking practically: Why do I want to be with someone that thinks what I've based my entire existence on is false?
As to whether being single or being married to the wrong person is the better option...meh. I'm the product of a marriage between a committed believer and a nominal one--growing up in that mess was rough enough as it was. I'm rapidly approaching 24, still single and have no prospects in sight. Ultimately, though, I could never trust that an altogether lovely, but non-/nominal Christian would ever actually know and love me, our family and most importantly, God Himself.
I don't mean to sound trite, and I'm as exasperated as the next single girl that been waiting and hoping and praying for her husband. But I really do think that this giving up, so to speak, is one of the many tricks of the enemy designed to get the sheep off the path and into the thickets.
69. Shazia said the following at 10:03 AM on Sep 19:
I'm not going to say that I am an expert on what to do for preparing for a marriage once engaged, or how you go about resolving conflicts after marriage, but I do wonder about the subject of pre-marital or marriage counseling.
Let's say that you have a couple that wants to get married, or a couple that is married and is undergoing some hardships in their marriage and they both want counseling. (or, at least one of them does) What if one of the spouses wants to visit a Christian counselor and the other spouse refuses to get Christian marriage counseling?
70. Angela said the following at 10:09 AM on Sep 19:
Reading all these comments has been very interesting. It comes down to this: we can always find valid reasons to justify disobedience. Obeying God is hard, but it is always right and good.
71. florida_grl said the following at 10:32 AM on Sep 19:
I've been there. Once only. He was beyond gorgeous, beyond what I even thought I wanted. Not only he admired, but he respected me, and came after me for months and months. He felt "lucky." He was in awe that he found a "nice, good girl." I was attracted to his boldness, persistance, good looks and confidence. And he had no fears. And he was a non-Christian. In his world there weren't any "nice, good girls."
I realized that temptation always comes in a beautifully wrapped package and my eyes sparkled.
When I entered his dark world something in me changed and I knew it. I had to separate before it was too late.
It's never an easy road. It brings you down slowly. I took on the toxic, dark things that did not belong to me. Yet, I wanted him to find God, and peace. But I realized that I could not save him. God only can.
No matter how hard we try and think that maybe it could work, maybe we could minister to them, maybe, maybe, etc... It doesn't work. It can't. It is light and darkness. It brings pain, dissapointment and in the end it takes away the peace and the communion we have with God.
It's dangerous ground. And to all the girls out there struggling with this: God says that if we obey and honor him He will honor us. That's encouraging to me.
I've never regretted giving my life to Christ and I don't want to be away from His presence again. I was reading recently where David says that he's never seen "His righteouss forsaken, or His children begging for bread."
I can't but believe that.
72. NeedACatchyName said the following at 10:40 AM on Sep 19:
Kelly and Marci: I know it's only a small consolation, but guys tend to get the same sort of negative reactions when they say that they hope to marry a virgin. One married Christian female even told me that at my age (26), I am "completely delusional" if I want to find a girl who is a virgin, even within the church (as a sidenote, I am a virgin, so it's not like I'm looking for someone "more pure" than myself).
That having been said, Marci's comment about finding someone who is "truly pure" has me thinking. First, what is meant by the phrase "truly pure?" I know for some it means that a person has never held hands or kissed before marriage, while for some it means anything but sex. And there's a wide range of viewpoints that lie between these two.
But ultimately, at some level, none of us can ever claim "true purity" based on actions. Jesus says that if we have even looked at someone lustfully we've committed adultery in our hearts (Matthew 5:28), and if we apply this standard, then who can truly say that they're pure? It is only through the forgiveness and blood of Christ that any of us are "pure," not because we've maintained some standard.
73. Christina said the following at 11:03 AM on Sep 19:
John: do you really believe that catholics aren't christians?
Sure, there's a lot of theological issues that they need to work out, but it they still teach the innate, undeniable believe that Jesus is the only son of God and died for our sins and rose from the dead so we could have eternal life.
That constitutes Christian - now the rest is all theological debate.
74. NeedACatchyName said the following at 11:05 AM on Sep 19:
Looking through the comments, there appear to be quite a few that follow this format:
I know we're not supposed to date outside of the faith, but Christian [insert opposite gender here] tend to be so [insert negative qualities here] and non-Christians of the opposite gender can often be a lot more [insert positive qualities here]. If Christians of the opposite gender would get a clue and develop [insert positive qualities here], I wouldn't be so tempted to date a non-Christian.
As someone who has been tempted to ask out a non-Christian girl because of frustration due to failed romantic endeavors with Christians girls, I totally sympathize. That having been said, perhaps the fault doesn't lie with Christians of the opposite gender, which is where we are all too often eager to place the blame. Perhaps it's more of a case of Satan deceiving us into seeing far too many of the negative traits of Christians of the opposite gender, while placing too much emphasis on the positive traits of non-Christians, thus making non-Christians seem more alluring. In other words, maybe the solution isn't so much to fault the opposite gender for not "stepping up the plate," but rather to examine our own hearts and ask God to help us see our Christian dating options in a more positive light.
75. Christina said the following at 11:17 AM on Sep 19:
to Marci and Kelly,
I wonder if keeping yourself a virgin should be more of a focus than whether the guy is a virgin.
His past should not concern you, only his current relationship with God and whether it is genuine.
The same goes to guys...focus on keeping urself a virgin and not whether the person your dating is one or not.
Virginity is a gift for you to give, and though God says not to have pre-marital sex, he also says not to lie. We're not perfect. And to discredit a man or a woman's faith because they are not virgins is hypocritical.
76. Marci said the following at 12:10 PM on Sep 19:
Christina,
I would certainly not discredit a person's faith if they are not a virgin, but I do think that as Christians, it makes sense that we'd want to marry virgins.
The fact that virginity is prized in scripture means that it is right and good - so I wouldn't go so far as to devalue virginity by supporting your idea that a person shouldn't worry about whether or not the person they intend to date/marry is a virgin.
Don't get me wrong - we are not to be condemning to those who have repented of their premarital sexual activity...but the solution isn't to say not to worry about it.
If God values it, then we should to. We should not devalue it to make other's feel better if they've fallen ...because in a subtle way, doing this will encourage more people to devalue virginity and give into the lie that we all HAVE to do it prior to marriage!
Blessings
77. Kellie said the following at 2:11 PM on Sep 19:
Kelly, while it sounds like you're heart is in the right place I would encourage you to be a bit more open. There are wonderful Christian guys out there who have made some mistakes or who might be physically unattractive by the world's standards.
78. Katie (the other one) said the following at 2:48 PM on Sep 19:
Marci and Kelly:
I agree with Christina, but I'm going to take it one step further. Yes, we, as Christians, should be striving to keep our virginity, and of course we should say we prefer to marry virgins because it simplifies/eliminates alot of issues.
However, speaking as a virgin, I know that if I wasn't a virgin (and my furture husband was) that I'd want him toforgive me for my past --as long as I was repentant for my sin and was not living the same lifestyle as before. Shouldn't I do the same for him if the roles are reversed? Isn't this how it should be with any sin in another's life?
I may not have had sex, but I've made my mistakes and committed my fair share of sins. What good it is for me to completely deny the possiblity of dating someone whom God has saved from his sin when God has had to do the same for me?
79. Christina said the following at 4:58 PM on Sep 19:
Thank you, Katie :)
Because my ability to post comments on boundless is iffy at best, and because the subject is rather off topic here, I posted something on my blog. Just click my name and feel free to leave comments...
80. Kelly said the following at 5:41 PM on Sep 19:
This topic has deviated somewhat - but I'm finding it really interesting. For those of you who were virgins and married non-virgins, how has it affected your relationship? Did you struggle? (I know this is a very sensitive topic so I won't be surprised if there are anonymous responses.)
Speaking personally, the first boy I fell in love with, a 'quasi Christian', eventually confessed to me that he'd slept with 9 women. It hit me like a wave of grief. I could have accepted one or two... but 9? From that point on, whenever we kissed, I couldn't help but wonder how I was comparing to all those others, and how innocent and naieve I must seem compared to them.
Imaged burned across my brain of him with those women, sharing such intimacies that I could never be part of. Even if he repented of it, it was still THERE, a sharing of himself with someone else. My understanding of sex is that it's something so deep, so binding, that it creates a 'marriage like bond' between two people. How could something so precious be treated so casually?
When the man and I broke up, one of my overwhelming feelings was one of relief. I had wanted to marry him, but now that that wasn't to be, I didn't have to live with the ghosts of those nine women.
I've dated two other (Christian) men since then, again, neither of them virgins. And this is such a struggle for me. It hurts to know they've been with someone else, it hurts so deeply.
I wonder if this is my test from God, to not only mentally 'forgive' someone for past mistakes, but also emotionally forgive them. In my head I know I have no right to be upset about it because everyone sins (just in different ways), but my heart aches so much over this.
81. Joy said the following at 5:54 PM on Sep 19:
This post has really hit home with me. I'm 29, saved as a child and never married. All of my adult life, it seems there are about 5 eligible women for every 1 eligible man in the church. The conclusion that I've come to is that the man must profess to be a Christian to date him. I think, however, people do often read things into the Bible that aren't there. The Bible says not the MARRY an UNBELIEVER. Dating and marriage are not the same thing, and believer and attends church several times a week are not the same thing. Yes, my interpretation is more liberal than it was 10 ten years ago, but I also would rather have "good" now than "best" in 10 years when my child-bearing years are over. Who is to say we can't be good influences on the men in our lives? Even so, it hasn't worked out with any of the nominal believers I've dated, so I guess God is protecting me whether I want Him to or not.
82. Nic said the following at 6:44 PM on Sep 19:
Katie said this:
Yes, we, as Christians, should be striving to keep our virginity, and of course we should say we prefer to marry virgins because it simplifies/eliminates alot of issues.
I'd call it a lot more than an "issue" - to me, sexual intimacy is the equivalent of marriage. It's a mystery how it works, but that's God's great design, the physical intimacy mixed with emotional intimacy causing a spiritual bonding. Ripping that bond apart hurts so much (just ask any person who's had their heart broken, how much more it hurts if you've been intimate with the person).
So with a non-virgin, you have someone who's essentially been married to someone else. If they're no longer with that person... ("the relationship just didn't work out") - that sounds like divorce to me.
So as a virgin, I'm hoping to marry a divorcee??? The Bible has quite a bit to say about that one! [We also have to keep in mind that the 'ritual' of marriage (the ceremony, the piece of paper) are not what marriage is about. In Biblical times, it was a public committment, consumated, and celebrated. Sometimes in the reverse if the man and woman were 'caught'.]
I've expanded on this more in Christina's blog (click her link above).
I know what I've said is controversial, and perhaps just one interpretation, but it's a big reason of why virginity, or the lack of, is such a big thing for me.
Sex=Marriage and it's the work of the enemy to convince us otherwise.
83. Obey God First said the following at 8:28 PM on Sep 19:
I'm single, 24 and attend a church where the ratio of single women to single men is literally 100 to 0. There is NO way I'd date or marry a non-Christian. Maybe it's because my mom grew up in an unbalanced home and our family is STILL feeling the effects as my Mom is the only one of her siblings to accept Christ and tensions are bound to arise from the differing world views. But more than that, Christ is my first love and to marry outside my faith seems so foreign and alien that I can't even conceive of having the desire to do so. Am I frustrated that there appears to be no prospects? Yes! Do I want to marry? Almost more than anything! But with God all things are possible and I know He'll bring the right man into my life if He wants me to marry. And if He wants me to be single He will give me the joy and strength to cope as I need it.
I understand that being single can suck. I live it everyday. But no amount of sob-stories can sway me into thinking inter-faith marriage is ever OK. I do think that God is gracious in allowing some interfaith marriages to end up with the non-believer converting but I also don't believe in the "ends justifying the means". Live according to God's commands even if we arent' rewarded until we join Him in Heaven. Easier said than done, I know.
84. BDB said the following at 9:33 PM on Sep 19:
Purple, Tan, Peach...I think if you mix those you get Puse.
There must be another color available...maybe Sea Foam?...where's a Speigel catalog when you need one?
85. April said the following at 2:11 AM on Sep 20:
Oh please! Why not just keep busy serving the Lord and not worrying about getting a husband. As a 31-year-old single girl, I can honestly say I feel fulfilled serving the Lord! Would I like to get married? Sure! But, God doesn't want me to sit around feeling sorry for myself or trying to find a husband...He just wants me to serve Him whole-heartedly and He will take care of the relationships (or lack thereof) in my life!
86. Naomi said the following at 3:30 AM on Sep 20:
i agree with NeedACatchyName.
actually, that convicted me.
i've been too guilty of the same things ... seeing more good things in non-Christian guys than Christian guys.
i guess i've been hurt more by Christians than non-Christians. the expectations we give for Christians are greater. of course, it's because we're ALL supposed to be Christ-like. that is the standard set.
however, we're also supposed to not judge, forgive and remember that there is constant renewing of the mind. we're all a work in progress changed from glory to glory.
now, i think we should all just work on that and you know... if we like somebody in church, let's just initiate a conversation.
87. Lauren T. said the following at 7:45 AM on Sep 20:
To me it's a pretty simple issue, whether the Bible forbids us to marry unbelievers or not: I wouldn't marry someone with opposite interests to mine. I have personal knowledge of how badly that stresses - and sometimes breaks - a marriage. Even when the opposing interests are things as foolish as the man liking to go camping and the woman thinking that's the stupidest possible way to spend time!
My belief in God is a pretty major interest. Why would I want to commit to spending the rest of my life with someone who doesn't have the same basic understanding of life? That's a situation I can't imagine living with.
For non-christian (other religion) couples who've had long marriages, I believe the same spirit holds true: they agreed about basic life philosophy.
As far as what constitutes a Christian, I believe many people are Christians who don't necessarily see things the way I do. My goal is to find a man who shares my basic philosophy of how the universe functions. Sure, there can be surface differences that need to be ironed out. But I want to be able to trust the man I marry, and part of trusting is faith that we both have the same definition of right and wrong...or even that his definition is better than mine.
I can't get that from a non-Christian man, no matter how much I like him. And I don't think I'd be a very good wife to him because I'd always be leaning toward things he didn't have any patience for. What kind of life is that for a man?
88. Jessica said the following at 12:38 PM on Sep 20:
Quote from Childless single woman: "I think the criteria should be “Does this man believe in God?” (The same God.) Yes? Well then he is fine to date and even marry! Remember, the Bible says do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. Let’s not add more to Scripture than is already there. ..."
My response: And let's not TAKE AWAY. Every other person you meet anywhere you go will claim to believe in God and even to be a Christian. This does not make them *believers* in Christ, which is the clear meaning of the passage in question.
For clarification, let's take it all in context: "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?" (NIV)
To interpret: Do not bind yourself with someone who does not share your belief in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. That person is living in darkness, and you are living in light. You cannot have true fellowship with an unbeliever.
In fact, a person who is an unbeliever and marries a believer is LESS likely to come to Christ afterward, from my experience. Why? Because they see daily every fault, mistake and sin of a professing Christian up close and personal, and they see no difference in the two. They 'believe in God' too, afterall.
89. Childless single woman said the following at 2:23 PM on Sep 20:
I am interested in this theme which (again!) has developed, articulated here by Obey God First:
"I know He'll bring the right man into my life if He wants me to marry. And if He wants me to be single He will give me the joy and strength to cope as I need it."
Maybe there is a third option?
Maybe he does want you to marry, but maybe He actually wants us to address the problems in the church that are causing His will for marriage not to be done on a wider scale?
Problems like the imbalanced ratio of men to women. Maybe God wants us to address that, and focus on reaching out to men as a matter of urgency?
Maybe God is grieved by the wrong teaching that has gripped the church over singleness and marriage, and He wants us to rid the church of modern ideas such as the "gift of singleness", doubting whether it is God's will that Christians should marry (despite the Biblical command to "Go forth and multiply"), and believing that Christian men should "wait on the Lord" instead of getting on with the business of find a wife!
Just maybe that is a third, rather less glib and a lot less comforting, alternative as to what is really going on here...
90. Arri said the following at 4:58 PM on Sep 20:
It saddens me that people forget that God is not bound by probability and statistics. That whole 60-40 ratio is pointless (even if it is questionable.)
That suggestion of going to Africa, China or Mexico was just plain patronizing. It equates eligible men to meat in a market- what happened to plain ol' faith?
How about praying for your future spouse, and living the godly life that God has called you to? Maybe, just maybe, when you're not looking, you'll look up, and lock eyes with that man or woman of God?
Just think...
91. Obey God First said the following at 5:37 PM on Sep 20:
"Maybe there is a third option?
Maybe he does want you to marry, but maybe He actually wants us to address the problems in the church that are causing His will for marriage not to be done on a wider scale?
Problems like the imbalanced ratio of men to women. Maybe God wants us to address that, and focus on reaching out to men as a matter of urgency?"
Most definately! I think men not attending church is a huge problem. I just fail to see how dating them or using beautiful, single women as Biblical sirens (is there such a thing? LOL) is the answer. I think both men and women share the same responsibility to reach out to non believers whether they be male or female. We're talking about lost souls here--an eternity either in hell or heaven. Not potential mates. Though more men in church would mean more chances at marriage.
But in the meanwhile we must face the harsh reality that Christian, church-attending men may be scare. Let's make things more even for the next generation of Christian women! :)
92. John said the following at 7:09 PM on Sep 20:
Jo -
Dating anyone that is not Christian is sin. A catholic is not a Christian. Dating a catholic is sin.
If you don't like the way that sounds, take it up with God, He wrote the book, not me.
This issue has been addressed before, it's amazing that there are so many misinformed individuals that believe roman catholicism is christian.
And before the "well protestants blah blah blah" people come out of the wordwork, I hold everyone to the same biblical standard. Just because you call yourself protestant, lutheran, charismatic, orthodox, whatever, doesn't mean you are christian.
Either your christian or your not. (Not refering to levels of walk, just salvation) I belong to a particular denomination and a particular church, but I am Christian first and foremost.
It's not far fetched to think a christian is working within the roman catholic church as a missionary to save souls from damnation, but that person would be aware of it and not refere to himself as catholic.
Catholic is not christian.
Seek God's will and the right person will come, don't force it, but don't be passive either.
93. brx said the following at 8:46 PM on Sep 20:
Wow, I think some of the polarization displayed in some of these comments reveals where the love of God can be lost in zealousness for following the appearance of the law.
Ted, I hesitate to associate myself with the label of a movement (such as WWJD) because I'm not sure how well it's defined. I'm just a begger seeking to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and what I can see of His big picture.
I'm still thinking about your statements "We are called to imitate Christ, yes, but we're not expected to do everything He did. Jesus was called to be the Savior of the world; we are not." And, I'm not sure I agree... If we are the body of Christ who is living in us, and we are sent to be a light in the darkness, and Jesus told us we must pick up our cross and follow Him (figuratively), then collectively/figuratively, maybe we _ARE_ called to be the blessing and 'savior' of the world. Much in the OT is about the Israelites getting spanked for not being and sharing the blessings that the Father bestowed on them.
"We succumb to temptations and peer pressure; He never has." And collectively, the Church is built on the Rock of the solid foundation of the truth of Jesus Christ (not Simon Peter) and the temptuous lies of the Gates of Hades will never prevail against the reality of Jesus being our Christ. So, no matter how much individuals bicker and argue over who one should marry -or not- Jesus Christ and His love will still be the foundation and will still be receiving people in situations we could hardly guess or imagine.
Please don't hear what I am NOT saying - I didn't say that I recommend a Christian marrying a non-Christian. I AM saying that for a mixed faith couple (or even two people getting to know each other), encouraging an open-ended discussion exploring faith issues and potential conflicts in marriage will likely be a far better witness for Christ than simply slapping one or both of them upside the head with 2 Cor 6:14.
We might also consider that Paul could have been refering to a specific type of non-Christian in 2 Cor 6:14. For example, there are non-Christians to whom one may be susceptable to being led astray, and there are non-Christians who often drive us to a greater dependence and closeness to Christ, and there a people who are 'not Christians - yet'.
There are some pastors who reason 'I will love this mixed-faith couple by mediating their marriage ceremony and interceding to invite the Holy Spirit into their marriage - and by God's grace, may it be the start or swaying factor to bring the non-Christian spouse to a confession of faith.' And there are some pastors who reason 'I will not lay my hands on this mixed-faith marriage and risk sharing responsibility for a future divorce.' I think there may be appropriate times for each of those reasonings - depending on the situation and what the Spirit says. (Looking at the divorce stats among Christian/Christian marriages in some churches, maybe the former reasoning warrants another look in the interest of more successful marriages.)
94. k. said the following at 9:31 PM on Sep 20:
Childless single woman -- And maybe God is also tired of our self-absorption. ("Date me, marry me, have kids with me!! God wants you to, RIGHT NOW!") I would love to see you get all worked up about something non-singles-related, just for a change. And I mean that in a nice way. :)
95. terry said the following at 10:46 PM on Sep 20:
if supposedly God is the most important person in my life, my deepest joy and my rock, how could i marry someone who does not feel that way? isn't my wife supposed to be the one i'm closest to? but how can i be close to her if i can never pour out my most intimate struggles and joys to her, at least not in a way she could understand. oh i can see it now, 'honey, i'm really frustrated, i've been trying to witness to this guy at work.' 'oh baby, everything will turn out alright, don't worry your head about it.' ...
who will spur me on to win souls for the kingdom, if not my wife? who will support me in the darkest times of my struggles in faith, if not my wife? (and of course, the roleplay works the other way around also.) i can't comprehend how someone falling deep in love with God could settle for anyone less than the same.
why scheme and plan and tiptoe around God's law? why don't we just pray so that God will answer?
96. Lauren T. said the following at 11:08 PM on Sep 20:
Good grief, John! Are you really trying to ignite a real firestorm? I don't think you could be any more controversial...unless you started claiming Hinduism is the same as Christianity, of course.
My entire extended family is Catholic. My parents belonged to the Catholic church when they met and married. I was baptized in the Catholic church. Whether we left or not is not the point: my parents were Christians BEFORE they left. There is Christianity there, whatever the delusions.
97. Childless single woman said the following at 1:13 AM on Sep 21:
K - How you can read my comment and conclude self-absorption from it, baffles me! May I ask you (in a nice way!) to read it again?
I happen to think that the problem of the lack of men in our churches, and the false teaching on singleness, are actually the most pressing issues facing the contemporary church today. Everything else facing the Body of Christ and our ability to fulfil the great commission, hindges on them. Please think about this.
98. Marci said the following at 9:18 AM on Sep 21:
Lauren T,
When I first started reading John's post, I was just like 'how can he assume Catholics aren't christian?!?' But as I kept reading and saw his comment about protestants assuming they were christian too, I came to realize that he's not saying Roman catholics are NOT christians - he seems to be attacking the assumption that many people have that being born or brought up Roman catholic makes you a Christian (which from a Biblical perspective is incorrect - the Bible makes it clear that one has to personally accept Christ's salvation...not merely ascribe to certain religious practices to be considered Christian).
I've actually met people who make the assumption that all people who claim to be roman catholic, pentecostal, lutheran etc are automatically Christian - John has a point that this is a misconception.
I really, really don't think he's lashing out at Roman Catholics.
I think he's making a destinction between those who walk out the Christian faith, and those who are merely Churchgoers (and I have met the C n' E's - those who go to church at Christmas and Easter, but claim they are Roman Catholic; you must admit, such individuals do seem non-practicing! Someone who has had an encouter with Christ wants to meet with others of like faith and spend personal time with God regularly).
I just think that there are more people claiming to be Roman Catholic - because it is (perhaps?)the largest denomination - that aren't actually practicing. I actually do believe there are devout/practicing Catholics. But like any denomination, there are some who are in name only (I'm pentecostal, and I've met meer churchgoers in this circle as well).
Hope this helps...
Blessings
99. Jo said the following at 5:39 PM on Sep 21:
Marci:
John's earlier comment says "Dating a catholic is dating a non-christian, non-believer." That sounds pretty clear to me.
I do agree that defining yourself by your denomination rather than as a Christian isn't a good thing. I would always say I am a Christian, not a protestant, not an evangelical. And yes, most Catholics I know identify themselves as that first, rather than Christian. I find that intentional separation problematic. However, I don't see it as reason to automatically deny their faith. I know 'nominal' Catholics, I know 'devout' Catholics, and I know Catholics who meet all the criteria of genuine Christianity that I apply to others, whose relationship with God is (as far as I can see and judge by Biblical standards) as real as mine is. John doesn't seem to acknowledge that this could be the case.
100. Leah said the following at 7:42 AM on Sep 22:
P&P: That's fair enough- I totally understand that it's easier to date someone with a closer denominational affiliation to you- but it's certainly not in the realm of "missionary dating" if you're both Christians.