Harps Playing. Clouds Parting. All that Jazz.

I wrote my own pre-comments "Burning Bush" post with some practical advice from Dr. Albert Mohler. In it, Dr. Mohler describes his "romantic grid" for deciding whether the person you're dating is "the one." What do you guys think?

* * *

After reading Steve's post Choosing Obedience over Options, I wonder how many couples are waiting for a burning bush before they know if they've found "the one." I wonder if they've ever been taught how to know.

Generally speaking, the way Christians date mirrors society. A couple goes out a few times, they like each other and then spend the next 8 months dating exclusively, looking for some sign to show them whether or not they should get married. The problem is, there is no sign -- harps don't play and clouds don't part. As a result, the months turn into years.

I am certain this would have happened to my wife and me if someone hadn't stepped in with some practical advice after our 8 months of dating. It was similar to the advice Dr. Albert Mohler shared with one of his seminary students when he asked, "How do I know she's the girl I'm supposed to marry?"

Dr. Mohler tells this story (which I've edited slightly for formatting) at the 2004 New Attitude Conference:

Dr. Mohler: Well, let's just figure this out from a biblical perspective. You are a man, she is a woman, we're headed into positive territory here. All right, are you a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ?

Seminary Student (SS): Absolutely.

Dr. Mohler: Well, Scripture absolutely forbids that you marry anyone who is not. Is she a follower of Jesus? Does she have about her the signs of regeneration? Does she love the Lord?

SS: Absolutely.

Dr. Mohler: What about the body of Christ? Do your closest Christian friends who know both of you see you bringing out the best and the godliest in each other? Do they see your relationship as a holy thing? What about your parents? Do you have godly parents?

SS: Yes, I have believing parents. So does she.

Dr. Mohler: Well, that's really important. Nobody knows you right now better than your own parents. No one knows her better than her own parents. And as they come to know you, and as your parents come to know her, do they see you bringing out the very best in each other?

SS: Yes, my parents are excited about it, her parents are excited about it, and all our friends are excited about it.

Dr. Mohler: Well, go get her! Sign the papers! Do whatever it is you have to do!

So let's sum up what Dr. Mohler refers to as his "romantic grid."

Are you both members of the opposite sex?
Are you both believers in Christ evidenced by signs of regeneration?
Do your Christian friends bear witness to your edifying relationship?
Do your Christian parents believe it to be a good match?

If the answer is yes to all of the above, who needs a sign?

Comments

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1. Phoebe said the following at 11:34 AM on Sep 5:

Amen!

2. Anastasia said the following at 12:52 PM on Sep 5:

Absolutely right! I keep trying to tell this to all my "auxiliary" sons and daughters.

Thankfully, my daughter is involved with a good Christian young man. His mother (widow) love my daughter and we love him. Their friends and church think they're great together. Her brother and sister think they're great together.

The only holdback is her finishing her degree in January. After that, we're all ready for the wedding.

It shouldn't be that hard. You make your choice on good criteria, you make the commitment to stick together no matter what and then you do it.

3. P&P said the following at 12:52 PM on Sep 5:

I'm assuming that you've also discussed other things that are "show stoppers" in marriages like:

Shared financial values: are you capable of managing your money accordingly? If one person is a "spender" and one is a "saver," things could get rough.

Children: When? How many? How do you both feel about birth control?

Living arrangements: where are you going to live? Do your respective families live nearby? If not, how do you manage the distance, especially if there are emergencies?

Household chores: How will the housework be divided? What are your standards of cleanliness? Who's going to do which chores?

Although these may seem like petty things in the grand scheme of a lifelong marriage, they've been the cause of more than one divorce.

As much as people like to think that God and Love will conquer all, debt, a sink full of dirty dishes, an ill family member 2,000 miles away and the stress of a large family can be a recipie for disaster.

I've always felt that instead of going through counseling during the engagement a couple should go through pre-engagement counseling with a pastor or therapist to ensure that they really are suited for one another before hearts and rings are exchanged.

4. Canadian Boy said the following at 1:00 PM on Sep 5:

So, like, if I have non-Christian parents who totally don't know me... am I doomed to be lonely forever?

And what's this about regeneration? I've never heard that word used in a Christian context. Isn't redemption what we have?

5. Motte said the following at 1:43 PM on Sep 5:

Canadian Boy:

If you have non-Christian parents, you should seek counsel from a pastor, elder or mentor from your church. It helps to begin the relationship under their accountability and authority so that they can observe your interactions from the beginning.

As for the use of the word "regenerate," this definition from dictionary.com should help:

Theology. born again spiritually.

P&P:

If you're dating intentionally, the subjects you mentioned should have already been discussed and resolved. I think what Dr. Mohler is saying is that people tend to overcomplicate this decision, placing too much emphasis on personal compatibility and not enough of spiritual compatibility.

6. florida_grl said the following at 1:57 PM on Sep 5:

P&P,

The pressure is painful. No wonder there are so many people feeling like they can't measure up. Yeah, I want to get married not to the perfect man...but to the man who is perfect for me...who is willing to grow. I don't want someone who already has it all figured out and all I have to do is show up.

I am quoting myself from previous comment on this post http://www.boundlessline.org/2007/09/why-men-delay-g.html

"We want the man he's gonna be at 35, to be at 25 in every way possible…emotionally, materialistically, socially, spiritually, etc."

And the woman to be "more mature, more home-oriented, less-dramatic, more experienced" a little independent, but not too much, ready to raise kids and make a home, be responsible, be good with money, be this, be that, cook, and to quote you:

"Shared financial values: are you capable of managing your money accordingly? If one person is a "spender" and one is a "saver," things could get rough.

Household chores: How will the housework be divided? What are your standards of cleanliness? Who's going to do which chores?"

Isn't that too much pressure? Shouldn't we all be in this together...grow together, experience together? Cry, laugh, play together?

How can we have all that figured out before getting married? How can we start a life together when based on some formula of what life should be like you already have it all planned?

Expectations are so high..so we try to know everything and be prepared so we can prevent heartache, divorce, etc. We focus on the destination instead of the process. Yet all around us people are getting divorced, etc. because one of the two at some point failed to fulfill the other's expectations.

Maybe it's because we are selfish without fully commited to God and we want what's best for us not for the other.

What would happen if both people were unselfish and tried to do the best for the other?

It comes down to having an understanding that no, I don't have it all figured out, but you love God, I love God and we're committed to Him first, and then to each other forever in hard times, good times, etc.

Don't we become one and figure out the process together as we grow?

That's how my grandparents did it - with plenty of sweat and tears...but they're happy...and after 50 years they wouldn't have it any other way. I've seen their arguments. I've seen him having to sleep on the couch... It's funny. Sometimes they can't live with each other, so he goes on a ride on his motorcycle.

...but I am sure they can't live without each other. She visits me in Florida. As soon as she gets in the off the plane she calls him and tells him she already misses him and that he should've come with her.

I'm overwhelmed with all the high expectations in our 20's... and the guys...no wonder they don't want to commit...we're setting ourselves for failure before we begin.

7. Evan said the following at 3:14 PM on Sep 5:

All I can say is Amen to what florida_gal said. Very well said.

8. Dawnson said the following at 7:07 PM on Sep 5:

I'm with P&P. The process described is too quick and oversimplified, in my mind. I've been in two 1.5+ year dating relationships. I thought in both cases that I'd found the girl I wanted to marry. External forces (like school) kept us from sealing the deal and I believe that saved me from two rather rough marriages. There are traits, trends, and issues that don't arise until quite a bit of time has passed. My last girlfriend was still figuring out who she was (at 20). She ended up being a very different person than the one I started dating at the beginning. Changes like that are what scare me. All the ducks can be in a row, the parents/friends excited, and the metaphorical stars aligned, but in the end she changes and leaves. My ability to trust that anyone knows who they really are has taken quite a blow.

To Motte:
define "spiritual compatability"
Two people can absolutely love God but be a horrible match for a marriage.

9. Bethany D. said the following at 10:53 PM on Sep 5:

Awesome post Motte, and rock on florida gal.

One of the anniversary posts in the forum this week discusses reasons why some men delay/avoid marriage, and I think number 5 is especially applicable here: "They fear that marriage will require too many changes and compromises" (though personally I think that this applies to at least some women too). It can be hard reaching agreement for who will do what housework or how the money will be handled. It can be tempting to think that maybe we can just wait for Mr/Mrs. Identical-to-us, but that's what marriage IS: a system of compromises that allow two unique individuals to become one. Even if you did manage to find your perfectly identical soulmate so you wouldn't have to negotiate a single issue - the dishes would still get dirty, relatives would still fall sick, and both of you would have times of stress.

10. Robert J Espe said the following at 11:07 AM on Sep 6:

This was originally posted before I proposed to my wife, I thought it was an excellent perspective, and feel it has worked for me. Since you are applying this formula to someone you are dating anyways, the little details get worked out naturally. There's just no such thing as a marriage that won't require an adjustment period.

11. Motte said the following at 12:00 PM on Sep 6:

That's great Robert. Are you now married?

12. Mike Theemling said the following at 4:18 PM on Sep 6:

If not for the final requirement of:

"Do your Christian parents believe it to be a good match?"

I would say his checklist is sorely lacking. Honestly, does he believe two people should willingly marry each other who have NO romantic feelings for each other at all? Or have radically different opinions on where to live, how to raise children (and how many to have), etc?

At least by saying "both parents believe it to be a good match" indicates that there is probably some mutual attraction already there. I find it hard to believe that both sets of parents would believe it a "good match" if one person totally felt repulsed by the other.

Still, I think this is an oversimplication of things. What Dr. Mohler is stating is a necessary condition for a good, godly marriage, but not a sufficient one (those who have studied logic know what I mean).

I agree that we can be too picky at times, but it is indeed one of the most important decisions we make in life and one not to be made without careful consideration.

13. Kellie said the following at 5:13 PM on Sep 7:

Most of the Christian couples I know dated between six months and a year before getting engaged. I think it's generally the secular world that has a hard time making up their mind...

14. Christina said the following at 8:15 AM on Sep 8:

Ok, I think we're reversing the order here.

Mike and P&P, lets assume you've been dating someone for a while now. You really like her. You agree on financial stuff and all that jazz. All the "worldly" stuff seems to work.

But God needs to be a part of this decision. Is this REALLY the woman God wants me to marry??? How on earth am I going to KNOW??? "GOD, SEND ME A SIGN SO I KNOW IF I SHOULD MARRY THIS GIRL OR NOT?!?!"

Then ask yourselves these questions.

They aren't meant to come before you know a girl and are attracted to her. They are meant to guide you actually choosing to marry her or not. And if all the answers are positive, because we already have attraction and spending habits down, then lose the cold feet and do the right thing and marry the girl.

15. BDB said the following at 11:58 PM on Sep 8:

I noticed the following conflicting values:

Dawnson wrote:

>>My last girlfriend was still figuring out who she was (at 20). <<

florida_grl wrote:

>>It comes down to having an understanding that no, I don't have it all figured out, but you love God, I love God and we're committed to Him first, and then to each other forever in hard times, good times, etc.

Don't we become one and figure out the process together as we grow? <<

My $.02:

Sometimes people who have "figured themselves out" have really just become set in their routine and are unwilling to consider changing it. I'm going to vote with florida_grl on this one. Much better to put growth on the table as an expectation.

16. Dawnson said the following at 1:14 AM on Sep 12:

BDB: "Much better to put growth on the table as an expectation."

I knew when I first started dating Laurel that she was still in the middle of college. I changed alot during college and expected change in her as she progressed through it as well. I loved her, and felt I was ready to handle change. We would work through it together. In the end, Laurel decided she didn't want to be married. She wanted to focus more on her artistic career. The desire she'd expressed at the beginning, to get married and have a family, wasn't accurate. She realized this after seriously dating for 1.5 years. That's change that is relationship-breaking. She didn't want that path, so she left. That's the kind of change I'm talking about. Not a darned thing I could do about it.

That experience has seriously undermined my faith in people's self-knowledge, and relationships generally. I see a girl and I'm attracted to her, but I think: does she know what she wants in life? Does she know who she is? Will she date me because it's fun and then back out when I want to marry her? Can she even effectively communicate what she thinks she knows about herself? Those are things that genuinely scare me now.

The answers to Dr. Mohler's "romantic grid" were all "Yes." Should we have married? Apparently not.

17. Christine said the following at 8:18 AM on Sep 12:

I think that Dr. Mohler's questions are applicable to certain situations only where both people are committed to the relationship and are wondering if they should marry or if there is someone else out there.

I think that I would add somethings to the list - such as agreement on major issues in theology and politics - but then I'm not married, so maybe those aren't as important as I think...

18. florida_grl said the following at 9:29 AM on Sep 12:

Dawson said: "I knew when I first started dating Laurel that she was still in the middle of college. I changed alot during college and expected change in her as she progressed through it as well."

The dating process is for that reason...to see if eventually you will actually marry each other...to see how a person grows, etc. A person may just grow right out of a relationship. Life, circumstances, etc. changes us. Just like we grow out of our clothes, our environments, our careers...

That's def. the only expectation you can have of the other person. All you can do is be yourself.

And yes, the next girl will probably not "know what she wants in life" at any given moment because there are a lot of things trying to get her attention (including you), not know "who she is" because she is growing and changing and likely date you because you're "fun." And who knows she might just decide she will, after all, marry you. Because you should have fun getting to know each other.

I'm sure by then you would have changed a bit too. Enjoy the ride!!!

19. BDB said the following at 10:42 AM on Sep 12:

>>Will she date me because it's fun and then back out when I want to marry her?<<

Yes...that is the fatal flaw in "dating" as a theory. It tends to fill time with entertainment which is much more fun than oh, say, real life. When real life happens, the people focused on "fun" and "feelings" sometimes bail out. They've gotten into their head that life should always be "fun" and if it's not, they bail out.

Not a good long-term strategy. But don't try to tell that to a "fun" person, they'll...well, they'll tell you to go away and stop detracting from their fun.

20. xeres said the following at 11:28 AM on Sep 12:

P&P and Dawson,

You make a lot of good points. People do change and it's constant. You guys change too all the time. It happens.

With that said, are we going to wait until God puts another Garden of Eden or another Adam or Eve or when it is assured that everything in life will be rainbows and bunnies from now on just to get married or just to simply love someone or even to do anything. Life never waits for you to adjust. I know life hasn't wait for me toadjust and I'll make sure I don't find myself expecting myself to do that for anything that I do.

21. Dr. Ransom said the following at 12:33 PM on Sep 17:

One has to love Al Mohler's directness there: There's nothing really in your way, son. So, shut up! get up! hitch up! and live it up!

Well, that seems plainly common-sensical, come to think of it. And, it is yet another indication of how one's theology of God's sovereignty, His people's divinely regenerated free will, and how we view how exactly to know and follow His will and how we are to understand it, are so essential!

God is sovereign, to be sure. Yet this is a decision that would seem more left to "human free will" -- that is, the decision of whom and when to marry.

In the Bible, though we certainly find hints of how best to treat those of the opposite sex and how to keep such relationships pure and purposeful, there is not "courtship method" outlined.

Paul's rather brief advice to the "unmarried and widows" in 1 Corinthians 7 is simply "they should marry." He offers nothing about how they should absolutely positively Know God's Will First or receive divine signs or any of that. Instead, the Apostle seems almost not to think that Mawwiage is that big of a deal.

In fact, his reasons for getting married are rather oddly practical (almost flippant or even "unromantic"): so they won't be tempted to do things that only people in Mawwiage should be doing.

Does that mean we should take such things as Mawwiage or considering Mawwiage lightly? Not at all. Paul, whose career was ever Gospel-focused, knew that those who are truly living in Christ and growing would find that they have the freedom to make such decisions and find them, more and more naturally, in accordance with God's will.

Thus, they will not want -- or not want so much -- to marry the wrong person. And they will be more and more naturally conducting their relationships in ways that honor God and each other.