Open Forum Friday
by Motte Brown on 08/03/2007 at 4:33 PM
After Ted posted a plea a few months ago to break Steve's comments record, we noticed you guys seemed to enjoy the open forum. We even talked about designating an "Open Forum Friday" so you could have some fun over the weekend, but never came to a formal decision.
Since it's a slow day on the blog (with three of our contributors on vacation), I thought I'd open it up. Nothing formal mind you. Just for fun.
I'll start with something random.
I'm a big Napoleon Dynamite and Nacho Libre fan and have been keeping my ears open for any news on the next Jared Hess movie. Anybody heard anything?
1. Tami said the following at 4:44 PM on Aug 3:
Nothing on those movies.
But I am interested in seeing what the automated robots* have to say sometime.
*(the ones you warn us about on the "Verify Your Comment" page)
2. Vincenzo said the following at 6:12 PM on Aug 3:
Naaachoooooo Libre!
3. Ellie said the following at 7:32 PM on Aug 3:
Although this is not the first time that I have pondered this, Anne Applebaum's article on the lost art of letter writing has me again pining for the fate of the traditional letter, cursive handwriting (on the decline in the U.S. long before e-mail arrived), and basic grammar and spelling. I've always wanted to open up a continued correspondence with someone, but no one I know lives far enough away for a letter writing habit to feel anything but forced.
http://www.slate.com/id/2171374/
4. James said the following at 9:40 PM on Aug 3:
That's b/c cursive is impractical. They try and teach that it's faster since you never lift your pen or pencil, but the problem is that makes you take the "long" way since your path is marked by a line. A fast writer will use standard writing, but with some cursive influence.
That's what I do (though my handwriting isn't always 'pretty', it's practical and it works), and I do write ALOT of stuff on paper while at work (some things with math are just quicker to work out on paper than they are using the computer unless it's a forumla for a whole string of #'s).
A nice handwritten letter IS nice to get, as are cards, but many times a just-as-heartfelt typed email can be just as meaningful. It's what is said in the words that count.
Though for formal things, and for when you are giving something to someone and you're not seperated by long distances, a written letter is better than an electronically sent one.
5. Nikki said the following at 10:39 PM on Aug 3:
I grew up on a 600-acre farm in rural Idaho. The first time I saw "Napoleon Dynamite," I thought it was retarded. It was like watching neighbors and...cough...family members. It took me a couple days to realize the film was actually funny. As for "Nacho Libre," I realized I'd watched it a few too many times when a friend's daughter asked if she could borrow my "naked man movie." Apparently leotard = naked to a four-year-old.
And, as a result of my isolated upbringing, I've used handwritten letters to keep in touch with friends basically ever since I could write. In March, I flew across the country to be maid of honor in a friend's wedding--a friend I made through Clubhouse magazine's pen pal program when I was just seven. We wrote to each other for 12 years before meeting for the first time.
My choice for fast, legible, "pretty" penmanship: Italic handwriting.
6. Claire said the following at 10:40 PM on Aug 3:
When I went away to college, my dad wrote me letters--real ones, in his own block printing on yellow legal pads. "You've Got Mail" notwithstanding, there's nothing like seeing familiar handwriting in your mailbox.
7. RH said the following at 11:33 PM on Aug 3:
I didn't appreciate snail mail until basic training, when it was the only form of communication available. Your day was good or bad depending on whether or not you got any mail. My parents sent me a letter almost every day during that time period, but the best mail was from my grandparents. They don't have a computer, but they do have a typewriter (which I always played with when I visited them when I was younger). The letters I got from my grandpa during basic were typewritten (even the addressing on the envelope!), and he often stuck in cartoons and publications he got from his unit while he was serving in WWII. A letter from him always made my day. I felt kinda special for getting a typewritten letter; it looked so old fashioned, and none of the other cadets in my company got mail like that. It meant a lot more to me than any email, that's for sure.
8. Melody said the following at 12:26 AM on Aug 4:
As soon as let us print in school, my cursive writing went out the window; a shame since it was rather nice. I move to not allow printing in school.
I do love getting real letters, that's for sure.
9. Felicia said the following at 12:43 AM on Aug 4:
So I've wanted to ask this question and now I have a place to ask it. Are there really guys(men) out there who do not drink alcohol and are not even interested in drinking it? I don't want to get into the whole debate about it; I just want honest answers because I feel like those men don't exist. Thanks. :)
10. Stephen said the following at 6:37 AM on Aug 4:
Felicia,
We (guys who don't drink at all) are about as rare as women who don't drink at all.
Though I was raised by a Southern conservative family having been taught that alcohol was wrong in any form, I have since discovered that it is impossible to make a coherent defense of this position solely from scripture. Thus, while I will never drink, I am no longer opposed in the slightest to dating women who drink (in moderation, of course).
I could be reading into your question intentions that are not there, but I would suggest that this is certainly not a salvation issue and one that should not limit your playing field (or hunting grounds, depending on the metaphor).
11. farmer Tom said the following at 7:06 AM on Aug 4:
Felicia,
Never had a drop in any form in my entire life. I'm a 43 year old married guy though so that may not be what you were looking for.
Seriously, I can point you to a whole group of young men who abstain from alcohol. They do exist, but sadly there aren't a lot of us.
12. n.d. said the following at 7:23 AM on Aug 4:
Felicia: Absolutely. I am a 27 year-old man. I do not drink alcohol and I don't like it. Furthermore, all of my male friends that I can think of do not drink alcohol either. There are many reasons for this choice. One is the history of alcohol in the country where I am currently serving. Beyond that, there
are many other practical reasons. And lastly, I frankly just don't like it. Be encouraged!
13. k. said the following at 7:27 AM on Aug 4:
Saw the new Bourne movie last nite--pretty good!
Felicia--I have several friends (guys and girls) who don't drink at all. I have others who love going out for margaritas or beers (including me!).
14. P&P said the following at 7:59 AM on Aug 4:
I'm from a very liberal congregation and never heard of Christians abstaining from alcohol until I was in my later teens. I always thought drinking was a personal choice, rather than one dictated by a pastor.
That being said, I drink, but not much. I'll have a beer at a cookout but that's the extent of the evening. Interestingly, I now know a number of people who were raised in very restrictive enviornments and are now the biggest party animals.
I've found that the more restrictive the upbringing, the more likely the rebellion. Just food for thought.
Comments? Criticisims? Attacks?
15. Joy W. said the following at 8:03 AM on Aug 4:
Felicia, while I'm not a guy I have two good friends who are who don't drink at all.
Granted, they're both taken, but I'm sure there are more out there.
16. mindlab said the following at 8:13 AM on Aug 4:
Re: Alcohol, I agree with Stephen that "is impossible to make a coherent defense [that alcohol [is] wrong in any form] solely from scripture."
I don't drink because it's expensive, most of it tastes like something left out of the refrigerator for way to long, and I really don't like doing anything that loosens by grip on reality. I have observed that most of the drinking that my classmates do (engineering grad school) is done with the goal of 'relaxing'. . . which really means changing the drinker's view of reality. That does not sound like fun to me.
17. John said the following at 8:55 AM on Aug 4:
Okay, we can either drop it now, or get into this again. Recreational drinking is sin. There are only two reasons given in scripture for drinking (alcohol) to be acceptable.
Felicia said she didn't want to get into whether it is right or wrong, but whether guys exist who don't drink or want to drink. Of course, it's open forum, so...
Of course there are plenty of guys out there who don't nor want to drink, just in certain circles.
18. Brian said the following at 10:03 AM on Aug 4:
Felicia
I had my first drink when I was 22 years old (on my then-fiancee's 21st birthday) I've had maybe four drinks since then. I've never had more than one in a sitting. But I don't feel comfortable drinking around other people (other than my wife) b/c I think it can be a stumbling block. I think Christians can shine a much brighter light if they give people a reason to ask why they are different.
New Topic:
I've been noticing that a lot of churches (even conservative, evangelical ones) are becoming more like country clubs, where you are expected to dress a certain way, and people show off their new BMWs on Sunday.
Has anyone else noticed this? I always like to take our old car (13yrs old, 200k+ miles, missing front turn signal) to church just to see what looks I get from "Christians"
(We just moved to the Kansas City area and have been visiting many churches trying to find a good one, we don't usually church-hop!)
19. mindlab said the following at 10:07 AM on Aug 4:
John,
I can't let this stand: "Recreational drinking is sin."
I hope you've found a verse no one else has found yet, otherwise you are wrong. Please defend that statement or retract it.
20. Jade said the following at 10:21 AM on Aug 4:
Ok, please don't flame me for this, but since this is an open forum, I'm just wondering whether any other Christian people feel this way. I am pretty scared of being a parent. I'm happily married, almost four years, no kids yet. I'm scared of being responsible for another life, I'm selfish with my time and money, I like being able to do what I want, when I want. Despite all this, my husband and I do want kids soon. So parents out there, will these feelings change when the kids arrive? What if I don't fall instantly in love with my baby? How DO you manage the finances when mom stays home? (Yes, I've read all the terrific articles on Boundless about all this, I just wanted some other opinions.) Oh yes, one more thing, I actually really like my job, I find great fulfillment from what I do and I like getting a paycheck. Will I be equally fulfilled raising children? (I do acknowledge the truth of the saying, "the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world".)
21. The Other John said the following at 11:27 AM on Aug 4:
John,
Would you mind spelling out the two acceptable reasons for drinking, with Scriptural citations?
22. EKB said the following at 11:49 AM on Aug 4:
Felicia-
I attend a well-known Catholic university and I know many young men who abstain entirely from alcohol, and many more who drink (legally) only in moderation. I know you didn't want a debate, but remember that responsible drinking is not a sin, only abusing alcohol. Even Jesus drank. Getting involved in Campus Ministries activities if you are in college is an easy way to make more friends whose social lives don't revolve around alcohol.
23. EmmaLee said the following at 12:07 PM on Aug 4:
My comment for the weekend:
Go see Hairspray!I just saw it and went back the next day with my husband. I haven't seen a movie that was that "feel good" and hilarious in a long time.
As for letter writing, my parents send me a handwritten letter once a week. I really look forward to them even though we talk on the phone all the time.
And for guys who don't drink, my husband and my father don't.
And finally... my shameless, oober-enthusiastic plug again: Go see Hairspray!
24. EmmaLee said the following at 12:22 PM on Aug 4:
Jade,
I'm a housewife who had her first baby 10 weeks ago. I can't answer your career questions, since I've never had one (I'm only 21). But I will share with you the insight I have gained so far. No matter what your fears and worries are, children are ultimately worth it. Some days have been very rough so far and I've found myself wondering if I'm really capable of doing this. Some days I feel my selfish self rearing up and I want to leave the baby with my husband and run off to the mall or the beach. Some days I feel frustrated that I can't just take off for the weekend with my husband.
But all those feelings vanish instantly when she looks up at me with her big toothless grin. And I realize I love her so much more than I did any of the things I had to give up when she came along. And don't worry about not loving your baby instantly. Because every day you will find more things to love about them. Babies have a way of growing on you.
I don't think that anyone is ever completely ready to have children. But as long as you are in a stable marriage and can afford diapers (and health insurance is a huge helper) then I say go for it. My theory is this: Your children are some of the people you will love the most. So why let days of your life slip past empty of the people you will love the most when they could be there. My two cents.
25. KendraW said the following at 12:23 PM on Aug 4:
P&P -
I remember when my mom first told our pastor that she was going to homeschool us. He told her that all of the homeschoolers he knew grew up to be strippers. Neither my sister nor I have chosen that career path, thus horridly disappointing everyone who expected us to be strippers or fail at college as we both graduated in the top 5% of our collegiate classes.
I have noticed however that when parents get super-restrictive with older children (18-22) that it tends to cause a lot of problems. And while we were homeschooled we had a lot of freedoms such as no curfew, etc. Mom and Dad trusted us therefore we behaved in a trustworthy manner.
26. KendraW said the following at 12:28 PM on Aug 4:
Jade,
I'm not a parent, but I have a friend at school who recently became a mother. I remember when she was pregnant we talked about how when growing up she never could deal with the younger kids. She liked them older and more capable of interacting. Once her daughter was born though, you could tell that everything else had been set aside for her. My friend turned in multiple papers late, receiving docked grades, because of staying up with the baby. Her countdown to graduating was really a countdown to be able to be with her baby full-time.
She and her husband have had to juggle their finances a bit, especially with both of them still in school through this last year. They've just moved and he'll be teaching in the schools while finishing his PhD and she'll be teaching music lessons out of their home while caring for their daughter. I realize that doesn't work for everyone but you should check into the possibilities of working from home once you have children.
I think a stay-at-home parent's most important aid is a solid social network. You need people you can talk to about things other than just baby stuff.
The going and doing also gets curbed a bit, but with a little planning things can still be done. Hope this helps. I'd also suggest finding some other young parents in your home congregation to talk to these fears about as well as an older couple.
k. - I really cannot wait to go see the new Bourne flick. My bro and I are going on Monday. :D
27. BDB said the following at 2:09 PM on Aug 4:
Jade wrote:
>>So parents out there, will these feelings change when the kids arrive?<<
Hmmm...I became an uncle this week, and my feelings changed.
However, months ago I made the decision that my sister could put me down as a Godparent. Perhaps feelings change when one is hit with the full weight of a decision already made.
28. John said the following at 2:26 PM on Aug 4:
Sure, no problem, because I'm beholden to a stranger on the internet to back up my words or retract, hahaha:
Proverbs 31:6
1 Timothy 5:23
And Jesus NEVER drank alcohol!
Read a proverb a day and you'll come across several imploring you to avoid alcohol.
29. Stephen said the following at 2:29 PM on Aug 4:
I have been raised with the alcohol is evil attitude and have a few friends who attempt defenses of this position. These defenses generally focus on passages that decry drunkenness, arguing from there that certain people can't help themselves around alcohol. Therefore Christians should distance themselves from alcohol so as to not be associated with its potentially bad effects. Paul is sometimes brought up (1 Corinthians 8, Romans 14 and the like).
I have even heard of pastors claiming that wine in biblical times was consumed because the alcohol killed microbes that lived in the water. Under this theory wine wasn't drunk for its taste, but for its medicinal uses.
These arguments are not without merits. But I can't help thinking that a clearer line would be drawn in the Bible if drinking alcohol for alcohol's sake was a sin. Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding. And not just any wine, but great wine. Parables exist with wine as the focus. Jesus commands His remembrance with the drinking of wine.
To be sure, drunkenness is a sin. Drinking around those who feel drinking is wrong is a sin (1 Corinthians 8:12, Romans 14:21). But with the lack of clear evidence concerning the prohibition of all drinking, and with evidence provided the our Lord permits drinking, I cannot see a strong case for claiming recreational drinking (not talking about getting anywhere near drunk) is wrong.
I am interested in hearing new sides to this debate.
30. Joe said the following at 3:01 PM on Aug 4:
"Recreational drinking is sin. There are only two reasons given in scripture for drinking (alcohol) to be acceptable. "
Oh my. I hope this was either a joke or just an attempt to stir the pot, but I'll respond anyway. Of course we can assume the two reasons he would cite are communion and health (Paul's advice to Timothy to drink wine for his stomach). But just as clearly, this is an indefensible position -- these may be the only direct admonitions to drink alcohol in Scripture, but there are numerous examples of alcohol consumption throughout. Indeed the very reason that wine is a traditional part of communion is because it was the customary drink from which Jesus was partaking at the time he instituted communion. As another easy example, the first miracle attributed to Jesus is the transformation of water into wine for the wedding at Cana. Jesus specifically created alcohol for the purpose of allowing the wedding guests to drink; a clear example of "recreational drinking".
Drinking in and of itself is never condemned in Scripture, drunkenness is. Therefore, the burden of proof for claiming drinking as sin is on the person claiming such. Such proof from Scripture does not exist.
31. Felicia said the following at 3:03 PM on Aug 4:
Thank you all for your responses. It is nice to know there really are men out there who don't drink or desire to (for different reasons). Just as a note: I am not against drinking (in fact I have close friends who drink), I just prefer to stay away from the stuff and would like a husband who is on the same page (as many of you could tell already).
32. BDB said the following at 3:31 PM on Aug 4:
Felicia wrote:
>>and would like a husband who is on the same page (as many of you could tell already).<<
Hmmm...here's another wrinkle.
I don't drink for intellectual reasons. First, I didn't like the idea, so I decided before I started college to not start. And, frankly, within the first year, I saw people making so many bad decisions under the influence that it completely turned me off. I never want to be that out of control.
However, I had forgotten that my grandparents have a "mixed" marriage in this respect. They've been married 67 years, and my grandfather was telling me how they save money on cruises because...grandma doesn't drink. I forgot about that. When I followed up, she also had a set of stories about people making fools out of themselves in public, so she also doesn't drink for intellectual reasons. My guess is that this is one of the things where they learned to compromise early on, and it resulted in a wonderfully enduring marriage. The result is that they've travelled the world together and still go to pretty much any social event you can think of - but football games at their house always included a full supply of soft drinks and iced tea.
Our church operates under a "no drinking" rule for official functions, like home-group BBQs. It provides a lot of social activities for those who don't drink. As a result, there's a number of "mixed" marriages because there's still plenty to do besides drink alcohol. It is kind of an art form to have fun without a chemical crutch!
(And I say that having picked up the bar tab last night for a going-away event for an employee!)
33. Tim said the following at 3:35 PM on Aug 4:
While drinking is clearly not a sin (Jesus was
sinless, he did drink, therefore obviously it isn't a
sin) But I think not drinking can also be holy. For example in the old testament one could take the vows of a Nazirite as directed in Numbers 6. You know the story of Samson, he was (supposed) to be a Nazirite from birth. And another example is John the Baptist. while not explicitly commanded to be a Nazirite, he was forbidden to drink alcohol. (Luke 1:15)
One other case is a command to the priests from
Leviticus 10:8-10 While not a command applicable to us, it is another example of not drinking being a holy calling. It is clearly biblical to be allowed to drink (see Jesus), Also it can also be holy not to drink.
I'm from Iowa, 23 and single and I have never drunk and never will. I have personally decided that because there is no compelling need to drink alcohol, and a few risks/good reasons to avoid it, and since I have felt personally an inner calling, I have chosen to take a vow to not ever drink. It is entirely a personal decision. I do not look down at all on anyone else who does not feel
called to abstain from drinking, I do not and cannot condemn anyone else for choosing to do what is clearly scriptural, lest I would have to condemn Jesus as well. I haven't chosen not to drink so that I may claim to be holier then thou, it is just something I have felt is part of my personal calling. But be careful, for there is very stern warnings against making vows and not keeping them. To make a vow and not keep it is a sin.
34. Kara said the following at 4:14 PM on Aug 4:
Jade,
I've never posted here before, but I saw you comment and thought it was worded so perfectly that I wanted to throw my two cents in! :o)
RE: being scared to become a mom: HANG ON TO THAT!! You should - within the boundaries of scripture - be a desperate mom. A mom who is desperate for God to help her parent. A mom who is desperate for God to teach her how to value things outside of her own interests. A mom who is desperate for God to show her how exactly DO you buy $25 worth of diapers for $20!
It is a God-honoring decision that - even though you're afraid you're too selfish - you and your husband want kids. Beautiful! The Bible reassures us that children are a blessing (Psalm 127). It says the fruit of the womb is a reward. Which means the rewards you enjoy now (spending time and money freely and going out whenever) will honestly probably come to an end. But the NEW rewards (raising someone up to love and serve the Lord, having your own family outings, planning your new family traditions) can start! It’s perfectly OK that you’re apprehensive about parenting, but it’s also perfectly appropriate for you to fearfully cling to His promises when it comes to having kids. Children are a blessing! They are a reward! Happy (happy, not just complacent, but HAPPY) is a man whose quiver is full of them!
About the job: I, too, liked my job - and more than that I liked contributing to our joint income. My job as a wife was easy! :o) This changed once I became a stay-at-home-mom. It took me several months to get used to the fact that my contribution to our marriage now slept in a crib in the next room and depended on me for EVERYTHING. It will probably be an adjustment for you as a wife to go from a place where your contribution to your marriage is financial to your contribution being a Godly mom, but it is a worthy exchange. One that is full of the above-mentioned rewards. You ask if you will be equally as fulfilled raising children. In a word, yes. But it will take some time. Just as when you were new to your job it took time for you to learn the job, then time for you to become a benefit to your company, the learning curve is similar for being a mom. It will take time for you to figure out what to do with your day and time for you to figure out how to be an excellent wife AND an excellent mom. But again, it’s worth it and it comes with its own promises and rewards.
And don’t worry about instantly falling in love with your baby. You will be amazed what it’s like to know there’s a child being knit inside you. Once he or she joins you in the world, your heart is ready. In this also God knows what He’s doing!
I’m sorry this is so long, but I wanted to give a good answer! Feel free to e-mail me if you want to talk further. Karababy20@yahoo.com
35. v@v said the following at 4:35 PM on Aug 4:
"ENCARNACIOOOOON....bedeebedebeeedebee....."
So, here's a funny Napoleon Dynamite story: Because I absolutely love the movie, one of my friends though it fit to get me a t-shirt with N.D.'s face on it. I happened to wear this shirt one day while at a very informal group dinner at my Pastor's house -- at which point my pastor, in his wonderful Spanish accent, asks me -- "v@v, who is the boy on your shirt. Is that you boyfriend?" That was funny, a) that my pastor thought I'd have my boyfriends face plastered on a t-shirt (no thanks), and b) that I'd have Napoleon as a bf. LOL.
36. Rhiannon said the following at 4:44 PM on Aug 4:
"And Jesus NEVER drank alcohol!"
John, could you give me scriptural backing for this?
Just FYI, if I'm not mistaken, the traditional Passover meal (the very meal at which Christ instituted the Lord's Supper) includes the drinking of at least four glasses of wine. Being the good Hebrew boy he was, this is something He would have participated in every year of His life. Unless, of course, there is some mention in the Bible of Him abstaining from this part of the ceremony?
Having said this, I will say that the first and last time I tried anything alcoholic I promptly washed the taste out of my mouth. That stuff is just nasty tasting to me. ;)
37. Brian said the following at 5:25 PM on Aug 4:
While I don't see the BMWs, etc. on Sunday, I do think that Church has become more of a social pursuit than a spiritual one. It's just another way to network, make friends, and too often discussions on Scripture or spirituality serve more as just ice breakers than anything else.
As for Church attire, I believe dignified attire is an essential indgredient to recognizing the solemnity of Church services. However, one shouldn't show off.
38. San Soo said the following at 6:07 PM on Aug 4:
John-
Are you saying that Jesus' great miracle at the Cana wedding is that he turned water into juice? That would definitely be a miracle, but it would also be a letdown to the people. Jesus saved the best for last. Juice would not be the best wine because it wouldn't be wine.
39. Joe said the following at 6:12 PM on Aug 4:
"And Jesus NEVER drank alcohol!"
"For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no win, and you say, 'He has a demon!' The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard...' " (Luke 7:33-34)
"A jar full of sour wine was standing there; so they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon a branch of hyssop and brought it up to His mouth. Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said 'It is finihsed!' " (John 19:29-30)
I know there are a few denominations who hold firmly to the tradition that Jesus did not drink any alcohol, despite the direct Scriptural evidence; I spent many years at a church of just such a denomination. The lengths one must go to in order to try to defend that clearly false position are almost comical; I once heard a pastor claim (with a straight face, no less!) that wine at the time of Jesus was not actually alcoholic.
I understand the desire for there to be a moral prohibition against all alcohol, as it would simplify the ethical implications of certain tricky situations. I even sympathize with that desire to some extent, given the amount of destruction and pain alcohol has caused throughout history. But above all we must be true to Scripture, and the simple fact of the matter is that, according to Scripture, drinking is not wrong, drunkenness is.
40. stamps and softball said the following at 7:29 PM on Aug 4:
Hmmm...the more restrictive the upbringing, the more likely rebellion?
I agree to a point...
Is this restrictive? (Note: I'm not bitter, but it does burn a lil...)
I am turning 19 this fall and live at home, am going to college this fall, I was on the older end of those at highschool. I'm in a normal-sized city. All my friends drive.
For the last two years my parents have not let me have a job of any kind, a car or driver's license, have not taught me how to drive, don't allow me to be out more than once a week and church on Sunday morning (see, not even church is a valid reason to be out more than once a week).
My parents seem to consider my time spent on the phone to be too much (I've spent an hour a day some days this summer) and my time online to be outrageous (yet I definitely concede to that one, you don't wanna know the hours I've spent building websites and reading Boundless). I recently aquired my first cellular phone (they got annoyed at me being out and not calling them about getting home late the once and a while I left with a friend). They won't buy me stamps as there's email (some people don't have it, ya know?)
Ok, hope you laughed and thought I was kidding as my friends do.
But when I am on my own, I think I'll go broke on stamps first.
My rebellion is more focused on rebelling against the standards my grandparents and friends have set before me - my grandma insisted that I'd be boy-band-crazy when I hit 13 so I never put up the images in my room that could appear to worship anything other than God.
My friends told me to just go ahead and do things my parents didn't allow but I made it a point to never lie (even if my parents never have trusted me, I'm not about to give them a reason to not trust me now).
My friends encouraged me to focus on me not getting things, but I chose to focus on how I'd be using wisely those things when/if I ever recieved them.
So in a matter of days, I'll have a job, be sleeping in a dorm, join a softball team, and always study in the cafe...I think :)
41. John said the following at 7:49 PM on Aug 4:
I'm not going to read everybody's post, but sufficite to say:
JESUS NEVER DRANK ALCOHOL!
He drank grape juice. Read my last post again if you want to see the two scriptures that allow for the consumption of alcohol.
When Jesus did the first communion, it was during passover. YEAST FREE BABY! A Jew don't consume yeast during passover.
Like I said, the original question was about whether there are guys that don't drink and don't want to. Well, as shown, other than for medicinal reasons (I think you can characterize both situations that way) a Christian man shouldn't be consuming alcohol PERIOD!
42. Scott said the following at 8:42 PM on Aug 4:
John, you do realize that grape juice naturally ferments into wine within five days of being pressed into juice? So, unless Jesus only drank juice in the first five days after the harvest, this fails.
And that comment about yeast is incredibly ignorant. Only Yeast/Leaven was to be absent from the bread. Nothing at all is said about wine or other aspects of the passover not having yeast in them. It was called the feast of unleavened bread, not the feast of unleavened everything.
43. John said the following at 8:47 PM on Aug 4:
Though I hate doing the research for people, here's a little link to help ya all out:
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/4.html
44. Carrie said the following at 9:04 PM on Aug 4:
Jade -- as far as issues with being a parent goes remember this: Christ does make all the difference. We may not always see what He's doing, but He's working. He does make all the difference in the world.
With that said my parents are not Christians . . . not even nominal ones. Not a single piece of their hearts is consumed by Christ. As dysfunctional as they are and as much as people annoy them in general, they do love their children with all of their heart. If they can love God's gift of children and they don't have Jesus, then I'm sure you will love God's blessings to you because of your humble reliance on Him. Its sometimes hard to believe, but look at your marriage. Do you not love your wife more today than you did 4 years ago?
45. Jade said the following at 9:38 PM on Aug 4:
EmmaLee, KendraW, BDB, and Kara thank you for your responses. I think I just don't know enough people right now who actually have kids for me to see how wonderful parenting can be. I will have to draw courage from your experiences with children as I prepare to have my own.
46. Ame said the following at 10:23 PM on Aug 4:
Jade,
I haven't read all the comments, but I do have some insight from personal experience and that of friends.
I was married 11 years before having my first baby, for many reasons. And I wondered the same thing.
Parents often tell stories about their children that come across as very scary ... sick kids, disciplining kids, sleepless nights, doctors, pediatricians, etc, etc. I was in my OB/GYN's waiting room with a couple once - she was about to deliver her baby - and she expressed the same fears.
You do not have to love now what you do not yet have. I have even known moms who needed time, after birth, to come to love their babies. Some babies are easy, some are high maintenance. Sometimes their little personality just grabs your heart, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes we become fearful, sometimes we just flow into parenting. None of these is right or wrong. It just is what it is. Will you love your baby? Absolutely. Immediately? Maybe. Maybe you'll need some more time ... and that is okay.
I had terrible pregnancies both times and hated being pregnant. Some people took great offense to that. I didn't hate my baby; I hated being pregnant - I hated being sick for nine months. But I love my babies (now 7 & 10).
Staying at home is another topic. For some women, it becomes a natural choice, for others it's difficult. I would not make your decision based on feelings toward your career/work or toward being a mom or toward your baby or feelings on anything. I would spend time in prayer with your husband and allow the Holy Spirit to convict you and your husband about what you two should do for the children God entrusts to you. See, you will get every opinion in the book (about everything about pregnancy, childbirth, and parenting) but when it all boils down, it's you, your husband, and your God. And that's it!
I am personally convicted children are significantly better with mom at home, and I have made significant sacrifices because of that.
But you need to make your decision for your family on your knees, with your husband. Once you have made your decision, once you know what God has for your family, you will be willing to make any choices, sacrifices, to follow God's direction for your life.
I can honestly tell you that I have seen children raised with mom in many different scenarios, and the children turned out fine. Thing is, each child is different. What my friend's child needs and what my child needs are two different things. And God gave me the responsibility for my child, not my friend. I have one daughter who would literally crumble in any care other than mine. She also has special needs. God gave me and has given me what He needs me to have just for her. He's good at that ... molding us into what He desires for His purposes ... purposes which include raising His little creations in His way :)
Being a mom is hard. Being a wife is hard. But that doesn't mean it's not equally as awesome or more so :)
Will your life change? Yep. Will you just LOVE it?! Sometimes. Will you ever hate it? Over the course of 18 years, there will probably be times you hate it. There was one day when both my babies were in diapers when I changed 9 poopy diapers between them! I hated that day!!! But the next day came, and that never happened again ;)
Of all the things you can give your children, giving them the gift of parents who deeply love God and deeply love each other is the absolute best you can give them.
Being a mom will drive you to your knees ... you will realize how little you have control over in this world ... and how desperately you need God :) Not a bad thing, is it :)
47. xeres said the following at 11:44 PM on Aug 4:
Has anyone notice that male singers have more versatility with their singing? I never have a woman singing in baritone or falsetto. I'm not implying that women are any less talented in vocal performance as men are at all for those feminists. Men just have more capacity to be vesatile with their vocal performance.
48. Samuel PG said the following at 12:19 AM on Aug 5:
For the drinking topic:
I committed myself to never drink alcohol. I do not think there is anything sinful at all in drinking moderately when of legal age, but I have decided that I will not do it. As I hope to be in ministry, I want to be able to speak to those Christians who think drinking is always sinful, and have respect because I do not personally drink. I also figure that responsible drinking is something that the American church should seek to reclaim, and so I hope that I can argue that those Christians who do consume alcohol are not sinning in doing so, and not be held to espouse such views only because I drink myself. Anyone else have a similar policy?
49. Melody said the following at 12:20 AM on Aug 5:
John,
The kingdom of God is not a matter of food and drink!
How then consuming one thing be a sin?
The only biblical evidence I see is that against becoming drunk. (The context of your proverbs reference, you'll note, is telling kings not to drink for they might become drunk or become drunks and forget to treat their people right.)
I don't think I'll be reading that book you linked to because I find the whole matter pointless. All I see your comments doing is unfairly passing judgment on people.
This is the second time I've said this on boundless: READ ROMANS 14.
We Christians ought to memorize that chapter and stop being so stuck about stuff that doesn't matter in the end.
50. Samuel PG said the following at 12:26 AM on Aug 5:
John,
You give the two passages that you say allow for any alcoholic consumption, but where are your passages that denounce any recreational drinking at all? Remember, I'm not asking for verses that denounce drunkenness, but simple drinking.
51. Laura said the following at 5:46 AM on Aug 5:
Felicia - I don't know if I'm too late, but just as encouragement, one side of my entire extended does not drink at all. My dad is one of five, and all are married and have several children, and some of them are now married. My cousin was recently speaking with his father over the matter as some uni (college) friends were having a go at him. His father just replied with '...our family..... men don't drink'. And he never has. So please be encouraged, there are men and women out there that will not drink.
And I'm not about to get involved in the is drinking right or wrong debate. I've wasted my breathe too much over the years and am not about to do so now, since tempers already seem to be flaring.
Brian - I understand your concerns regarding the purpose of fellowship in your church. If this is something that you truly feel is an issue, please speak with one of the elders in your church, and they can help you through any concerns and solutions (as necessary). Personally (re: fashion) I believe purity and modesty is something that should be upheld by everyone, no matter their age. I believe this standard should run through our entire lives, but not least when we are in the Lord's house. I fellowship in what could be translated as a somewhat pentecostal church (I'm not sure how to translate Aust. to USA, sorry), so jeans on a Sunday morning is acceptable. That being said, they are always dressed up and are always modest. Hope that helps, if not just blog back!!!
52. Jethro said the following at 6:43 AM on Aug 5:
John,
At the very least, let's remember that the Scriptures record but a fraction of Jesus' life. It is entirely possible that he drank alcohol on a regular basis. Simply because it is not mentioned doesn't mean it didn't happen. Nor does it mean it did, mind you.
In any case, I enjoy a few drinks. It tastes nice, it's relaxing and it can be fun - that's enough reason for me.
53. Howell said the following at 7:54 AM on Aug 5:
John,
Thank you for the link; It is informative. If you desire to make the most impact you would do well to temper your smug attitude.
54. mindlab said the following at 8:39 AM on Aug 5:
The range of topics discussed here was fascinating. I think we should do this at least once a month, maybe more often.
55. P&P said the following at 11:23 AM on Aug 5:
Drinking in the Bible:
What people fail to realize is that the diet of a person during that era was significantly different than it is now. As it was mentioned in an earlier post, grapes naturally ferment into wine, as does wheat. Water was not always safe to drink, however naturally fermented grapes were, because the alcohol destroyed the bacteria.
Remember, it was some time before the microscope was invented and we could actually identify bacteria. People also didn't know that boiling water was a way to purify it. Instead, people simply knew the water made them sick, but wine and beer didn't. This is also why people drank tea and coffee for centuries thinking it was "safer" than plain water. They didn't understand that it was the act of boiling water that made it safe, not filtering it through a sieve with tea leaves, roots or coffee beans.
Many scholars (Christian, Muslim and Jewish) also believe that the dietary rules surrounding pork and shellfish are the result of a rash of food-borne diseases during that era. Pigs carried trichinosis which can lead to death if untreated and shellfish are "bottom feeders" in the ocean so they were eating matter that had been contaminated with waste, which caused illness in seaside communities. Fish on the other hand can swim in large areas and are less likely to feed exclusively in contaminated sectors.
Again, people did not know the scientific reason behind the illness, but they understood that pork = illness. Religious leaders probably developed these laws as a way of keeping people healthy.
56. Joe said the following at 11:37 AM on Aug 5:
"I'm not going to read everybody's post, but sufficite to say:
JESUS NEVER DRANK ALCOHOL!"
I don't want to sound overly harsh, but I think this comment perfectly exemplifies the stance one is forced into with this position -- a "head in the sand" mentality whereby one must insist that all drinking is wrong and staunchly ignore any evidence to the contrary.
I actually read most of the article that John submitted as counter-argument, and while it is interesting, the overarching problems with it are twofold. First, the author clearly comes from the perspective that drinking is wrong, and thus that he has no burden of proof, but rather must merely respond to the clear passages in Scripture where alcohol use is explicitly or implicitly encouraged. This is both a flawed approach logically and a sad twisting of the radically new freedom that the believer has in Christ. But second and perhaps more importantly, despite the author's impressive attempts to twist the clearer reading of a passage (for instance, claiming that the word "oinos" in the wedding at Cana somehow refers to unfermented juice, despite referring to wine EVERY other place it is used in Scripture), his arguments are utterly unconvincing. It is crystal clear upon reading this article that the author started from a position of wanting all alcohol consumption to be wrong, and fought tooth and nail to twist Scripture to fit that pre-conceived notion.
--------------------------------------
All that to say this, and John, I hope you will read at least this portion of this comment --
Drinking is not inherently wrong, you yourself would admit that, because it is directly encouraged at two points in Scripture. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you to show that "recreational drinking" is sinful. The article to which you linked does not attempt to provide such proof, nor does it even cursorily deal with very clear passages such as John 19:29-30, so that burden remains.
I worry that John's comments, like the comments of those who claimed that it was sinful to eat meat sacrificed to idols in Paul's time, might confuse and trouble younger believers. I hope that all of you will realize both from the comments here and from Scripture, that John's view is both highly unusual and biblically indefensible.
57. Joy W. said the following at 2:10 PM on Aug 5:
Regarding the drinking argument, here's an excerpt from Psalm 104, which speaks of God's creation and provision:
"He causes the grass to grow for the cattle,
And vegetation for the service of man,
That he may bring forth food from the earth,
And wine that makes glad the heart of man,
Oil to make his face shine,
And bread which strengthens the man's heart."
Psalm 104:14-15, NKJV
58. Ellie said the following at 2:36 PM on Aug 5:
xeres
Male and Female throats are shaped slightly differently, which allows any adult man to sing with a falsetto. If a man is trained to use his falsetto he is called a falsettist. Men whose voices naturally fall into the same range as the falsetto are called countertenors. Countertenors, falsettist, boy altos, and castrati were used in church music until the 19th century because women were not allowed to sing inside the church. In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, during the height of bel canto, these men were very often employed and many pieces were written for them. By the nineteenth century these high types of voices were very rarely cultivated, and much of the music has not been sung or been sung by boy altos or contraltos. When a natural countertenor comes along (such as Russel Oberlin who can be found on youtube) everyone in the opera community is very excited. There are also a few endocrinological castrati singing today, as well as many trained falsettists.
Female falsetto is rarely used. It is often called the whistle register. It's main and most famous usage is in "Die Holle Rache" or "The Queen of the Night's Aria" from Die Zauberflote (best sung by Edita Gruberova, seconded by Sumi Jo). Mariah Carey also uses whistle voice.
Women do not sing in the opposite of falsetto (sing in a typically male vocal range) because there is no construct in the larynx to allow for it. Usually if a woman has an abnormally low voice it is due to damage (smoking, constant respiratory infection, etc.) and she cannot sing at all. Tallulah Bankhead, called the Alabama Foghorn by the actor who played Fred Mertz on "I Love Lucy," is a good example of an abnormally low, damaged voice.
Incidentally, even disregarding falsetto, the male voice is more diverse in range than the female, and male singers also tend to last longer (female opera singers usually must stop singing by the time they are sixty, whereas some male singers never stop).
59. Ellie said the following at 4:11 PM on Aug 5:
Sorry, that should be "Der Holle Rache." I'm never as careful with my German articles as I should be. Also I should add that some people prefer Diana Damrau's Queen to Jo.
60. BDB said the following at 4:17 PM on Aug 5:
P&P wrote:
>>Religious leaders probably developed these laws as a way of keeping people healthy. <<
Take that thought one step further. God provided commandments because He knew what was good for us, and He knew how the Biology He created worked. I imagine that it was too complicated for God to explain all the various diseases that could result from activity that violates the commandments in scripture. I prefer to believe that God was simply ahead of the scientific curve.
It amazes me that schools try to teach "safe sex" and never make the small logical step of understanding that God warned us ahead of time that certain choices have consequences.
61. Leah said the following at 6:50 PM on Aug 5:
Re: Cursive.
James, if done properly, cursive is not impractical nor slow. You are required to lift your pen at certain times when writing cursive.
Re: alcohol.
John, Jesus drank wine. The bible doesn't say it was non-alcoholic. Actually, it indicates that the wine drunk WAS alcoholic. Remember the wedding at Cana? It said guests had already "had too much to drink". (Wouldn't be the case if it wasn't alcoholic!)
You reckon "Christian man shouldn't be consuming alcohol PERIOD!" The fact remains, nowhere in the bible does it say you shouldn't drink alcohol. And you can't change that. It only ever says you shouldn't GET DRUNK. The only times it advises against drinking is so that someone (eg. the king in that passage someone referred to) doesn't get drunk and make unwise decisions.
You are also being incredibly rude and I wouldn't blame anyone if they totally ignored you.
I am a 19 year old girl, and I have no problems with drinking. I've never gotten drunk. Never made an unwise decision due to being 'under the influence'. Seeing as that is the only biblical reason for not drinking, I see no problems. I will usually only have 1 drink at any given party/sitting/whatever. Sometimes I've had 2. The only times I've drunk are around christian friends who don't have a problem with me drinking, or around close non-Christian friends who know I'm a Christian and know my stance about alcohol- I'm happy to drink but won't get drunk.
62. Eliz said the following at 6:56 PM on Aug 5:
In regards to the drinking comments - there are many pastors (& I have heard 2 sermons from 2 different pastors) showing scripturally it is not ok to drink. Whether or not you agree is a different story. I would have to get the sermon on cd to see what scriptures they referenced.
I don't drink and I take the view that I don't want to look like the rest of the world. What sets me apart from the world if I'm drinking at a bar?
I know some of you will disagree with this but, again, it's my opinion. I don't think I'm better than anyone who doesn't drink. I do view it as a sin but I am also friends with people that drink and I don't silently or publicly condemn them for it. I am also looking for a guy that views drinking the same way as myself and does not want alcohol in or outside of the home.
63. Ted Slater said the following at 8:55 PM on Aug 5:
Just a quick note -- I believe Leah is from Australia, where the legal drinking age is 18. She is 19, and is not doing anything illegal by drinking. The U.S. is the only country I'm aware of that has set its legal drinking age at 21.
64. Peter G said the following at 10:06 PM on Aug 5:
Didn't Jesus indicate that we should not judge each other over disputable matters? :)
I do not drink - only have had wine with communion and toasts a few times. I see no problem with alcohol as long as drunkenness is avoided. I would point out though that for many people, it takes very little to start impairing judgment. Hence, I avoid it in any substantial amounts at all.
Good discussion!
Oh, here's a question: Where is the biblical basis for having to wear formal clothes to church?
Peter
65. Joe said the following at 11:00 PM on Aug 5:
"Oh, here's a question: Where is the biblical basis for having to wear formal clothes to church?"
I doubt anyone will argue that there is a Biblical basis for it. Rather, those who support the practice do so on the grounds that it is a sign of respect, and helps to foster an atmosphere of seriousness and reverence as more appropriate for the worship of God than the laid-back coffee-shop feel of many "seeker friendly" churches.
66. Chris Krycho said the following at 11:09 PM on Aug 5:
Hezekiah 14:24 - "And when you come into the temple, attire yourself in your finest, coming before your God in your best garment, so as not to dishonor him in any way."
67. Charles H. said the following at 8:53 AM on Aug 6:
Alcohol: My fiancee and I each drink socially but we don't drink at all around each other, lest we lose our inhibitions. I don't think drinking in moderation is forbidden by Scripture, but it is clearly something that must be approached with great caution and respect for the effects it can have.
Dress code: Personally, I dress a certain way for certain occasions. If I'm meeting with someone important, my clothing is a way of showing I take him seriously -- I was embarrassed when my future in-laws came over unexpectedly and I was wearing typical work clothes. Well, going to church is going to God's house, and I want to dress appropriately -- meaning respectfully, not meaning that I should show off how much I can spend on tailoring.
Fancy stuff at church: Haha, and I thought I was the only one who showed up in an old car just because I can! It's funny... for all the youthful rebellion out there, refusing to buy into (and I use that expression on purpose!) a materialistic culture is about the biggest statement of non-conformity you can make these days. It reminds me of that Audio Adrenaline song about his father's old Chevette: "Thirty miles per gallon; zero to sixty, sometimes."
68. Leah said the following at 9:36 AM on Aug 6:
Thanks for that note Ted, I totally didn't think about that! :)
Ellie- I totally have no probs with you choosing not to drink, especially for the reason of not looking like the rest of the world. (I'll point out that you can drink and still "not look like the rest of the world" when you're one of the few who aren't drunk, but I'm not trying to sway your decision, I completely understand).
However, you say you view it as a sin but don't silently or publicly condemn those who do it. I have a problem with that. If you view something as a sin, you must condemn it. Maybe not publicly, but certainly silently. You seem to have the attitude that if your friends drink, then that's their choice. If it was a matter of sinning or not sinning, then it is NOT their choice. You must make the decision as to whether you believe drinking is a)Ok, b)unwise, or c)an outright sin. Because at the moment, you are saying c), but appear to be acting as if it's just b).
69. Iris said the following at 9:59 AM on Aug 6:
Hi! I just wanted to add a few things.
RE: John - "When Jesus did the first communion, it was during passover. YEAST FREE BABY! A Jew don't consume yeast during passover."
I'm from a Jewish background and I can tell you that while Passover wine is not always as strong as regular wine, it certainly is wine. Never in the history of Judaism (Old Testament or afterward) was it prohibited to drink alcholic wine during Passover. Please do your research before making such a statement.
RE: Jade
I'm 28, mom to a 3yo and an almost 2 yo and we're expecting #3 in Oct. I had some of the same feelings as you did in the beginning (and still have the overall dread of "how in the world am I going to be able to handle 3!!"). In my case once our oldest was born I seemed to roll into my new role. It isn't always easy, and on occasion we can give them away (not really, but the feeling of being overwhelmed when they're both sick or being difficult at the same time is very real in those moments). We decided for various reasons that I would continue working part time (most of which is at home) and I have to say that I am grateful for the 1 day a week that I get to go into the office. Whatever you decide about staying at home, if you do I would advise you to find ways to engage yourself. My mom was a full time SAHM and purposefully pursued some hobbies such as folk dancing, Bible studies, etc to give herself some intellectual stimulation/adult interaction. And of course once we were all in school it opened up time for her to pursue other intersts. Not all mothers can handle full time staying at home with toddlers, and it's ok to admit that. For that reason it's good to have a solid social group around you and get involved in mom groups via church (if there is one) for support and encouragment.
70. Leah said the following at 10:00 AM on Aug 6:
P&P- the whole not eating pork thing wasn't invented by religious leaders, it was a command from God (not to eat unclean food).
Of course, later in the New Testament God reversed that :)
71. Bo said the following at 10:35 AM on Aug 6:
Felicia--
That's funny because a year ago, I would have been asking the opposite question--are there Christian guys out there who do drink? When my husband and I got married, he told me he was glad to marry a girl who does drink so we could enjoy that together (not getting drunk, just enjoying a glass of wine here and there).
It's fun to hear everyone's different beliefs on drinking.
That said, I think John is just kidding around. His tone is so extreme, he must be joking! I think he's just trying to stir things up. :)
72. Andrew said the following at 10:38 AM on Aug 6:
Peter,
I don't have a biblical basis for dressing up for church but a comment my dad made to me one time a long time ago. "I dress up for the world 5 days a week, why can't I dress up for God 2 hours on Sunday?"
Makes a lot of sense. However God does say come as you are, I firmly believe that God truly doesn't care what you look like as long as your heart is in the right spot :-).
73. n.d. said the following at 11:13 AM on Aug 6:
About wearing "formal" clothes to church: that's totally a personal choice. I wear a suit and tie every day to work (on weekdays) and wear jeans & T-shirts to church. Why? Because the Church should be family. I don't dress up in the presence of my family because they know me and I can be completely relaxed around them. Sunday is also my day of rest and I don't know anyone who dresses up to rest. Furthermore, "Man looks at the outside, but the Lord looks at the heart." I don't think God cares if you are "dressed up" or not, but He most certainly does care about the condition of your heart. If I'm dressed up for church, but my heart is rotten, it's not going to be worth a hill of beans. :)
74. Katalaya said the following at 11:19 AM on Aug 6:
Stamps & Softball -
Wow I can't believe nobody else responded to your comment! I find your experience to be very interesting and can't help but to offer you a little encouragement!
Given the way I grew up, it is true that I would see your lifestyle so far as being pretty restricted. I am not sure if I'd say that was inherently good or bad, but just that I would fear you have not learned certain coping skills for situations you may face on your own. Then again, I have never met somebody who has grown up like you who has such a positive, graceful attitude about it! This shows a surprising amount of maturity, and offers evidence that you will probably adapt to college life just fine... and that you probably will not just go nuts and rebel like the stereotype goes. Of course, you also must remember not to get carried away with yourself!
I came from a mixed background of mildly restricted & detached but adult decision-making focused parents and a confusing influence from fundamentalist extended family, which caused a lot of confusion and hard times for me personally when I went away to school. I have just graduated with my B.S. and am headed on to graduate school, so as somebody who's already been through it and with all this talk about pen pals... I wonder if you'd be interested in that? I love correspondences, and like others in this thread, I have a hard time finding people who will keep one up.
You can learn the easy way from some of my many major mistakes and walks down the wrong path, and have a fun source of encouragement during this very exciting and pivotal time in life! If not that is ok too, no offense would be taken! My email is katelbell@gmail.com
75. Susie said the following at 12:21 PM on Aug 6:
re: alcohol: personally, I don't have a problem with drinking, as long as people don't get drunk. That said, IMO, it isn't something worth arguing about.
re: cursive and letters-I do think cursive looks nicer (unless you write like me, in which case whatever you write will look sloppy!) And I love getting letters, although they rarely come for me. Most of my snail mail is bills & bank statements. But when someone takes the time to write, it says that the relationship is worth the extra effort. And as someone who loves history, I can say that reading my great-grandpa's letters to his mother during his time going through the Naval Academy, I think there is a lot we (and our kids) will miss out on by not writing letters. But I am still horrible at writing letters myself-mainly just lazy.
The Bourne movie was ok, but not my thing so much. I've never seen Nacho Libre, but I found Napoleon Dynamite incredibly boring. You've Got Mail, on the other hand, is one of my favorite movies.
76. Paul said the following at 12:49 PM on Aug 6:
Eliz,
"What sets me apart from the world if I'm drinking at a bar?"
That's an extremely good question. It's roughly equivalent to the question 'What set Jesus apart from the world when He ate at the home of a tax collector?' Actually a lot of things set him apart, not least the fact that He was prepared to engage with people who needed His help in surroundings where they were most comfortable and receptive to Him. Actively engaging with the world while maintaining our Christian distinctiveness is a difficult challenge, but it's a challenge that we're called to.
77. Melody said the following at 12:58 PM on Aug 6:
I have a Chevette! great car. 1986 so just about as old as me. The gas gauge broke a month ago and it's leaking steering fluid and other oils but it's a smoooooth ride. My grandmother just gave me her 95 Pontiac Sunfire but I'm still driving the Chevette as the Sunfire is 5 hours away at the moment.
78. Melody said the following at 1:02 PM on Aug 6:
Just thought I'd post this whole text since it's important for us to remember:
Romans 14
The Weak and the Strong
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
79. Michelle Myers said the following at 1:53 PM on Aug 6:
Eliz,
Don't forget the reason why Jesus ate at the home of a tax collector. When asked why Jesus ate with "sinners", He said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners," (Matthew 9:12). Jesus didn't surround Himself with people who knew Him, but with people who did not know Him and desperately needed Him.
So, to make it relevant, is a reason for going to a bar honestly a way to show that being a Christian is different from the world? Sure, drinking may not be blatantly wrong, but it is associated with getting drunk. Even a non-Christian would be surprised to see someone who claims to be a Christian sitting next to him taking shots, or merely "socially drinking". That's just the way the world is.
We must not only remember that actions speak louder than words, but also, "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people," (Ephesians 5:3).
That's right. Not even a hint.
80. P&P said the following at 2:00 PM on Aug 6:
If I had a choice between "You've Got Mail" and the the original "The Shop Around the Corner" starring Jimmy Stewart, I'll take the original any day. Jean Stapleton was the only character that made that movie interesting.
I do have a soft spot for Napoleon Dynamite, though. I remember seeing it on a miserable hot summer night and it was a great way waste a couple of hours in air condidtioning.
81. Jessica said the following at 2:54 PM on Aug 6:
Hmmmm interesting how when you open a forum about movies it ends up on drinking...go figure.
Not that anyone cares about my personal opinion, but it's an open forum, so I can share.
I guess I was raised in what one of you deemed a "very restrictive" environment and love how that same person made a very blanket statement about how those of raised in said environment have "greater rebellion." My rebuttal would be that if we were raised CORRECTLY in that environment there is no rebellion.
For those of you wondering about the whole "Are there any people left out there that don't drink" I could list off over one hundred names, both male and female, friends I love and hold dear who do not drink. Neither do I. So, the whole abstinence from alcohol thing isn't really that rare, we don't dance or go to movies either and we have a blast!
It is a matter of personal opinion, and interpretation. There are verses in the Bible that speak of drinking strong drink, etc. More stunning is the fact that 1 out of every 10 people that take one drink become alcoholics. I think I'd rather stay away from that kind of risk.
For most of us that choose not to drink/smoke/dance/go to movies, etc, it usually has something to do with separation. If I walk into your house and your refrigerator is full of beer I'm not going to think, "Wow! there's something different about this person." If I see you walking into a bar, I'm not going to think that either.
Yes, Jesus ate with tax collectors, but He didn't collect taxes with them. Yes, He fellowshipped with sinners but He did not participate with their sin. Loving and Living with are two totally different things.
So tell me, how would I, as a Christian walk into a bar full of drugs, alcohol and promiscuity and maintain my testimony (not to mention my purity) not only for those inside the bar but for those outside who saw me walk in?
If you notice, Jesus always fellowshipped with sinners in a public place, that's how the Pharisees could see and get their feathers ruffled about it.
It's about your testimony and once you step inside the doors of that bar, of that movie theater that shows PG-13, R, and X-rated films, how do people know? Those people inside the bar might drink themselves into amnesia, they aren't a good witness... How do people from outside the bar or inside the bar know you have been with Jesus? That's what it all comes down to.
82. stamps and softball said the following at 6:45 PM on Aug 6:
"...about how those of us raised in said environment have "greater rebellion." My rebuttal would be that if we were raised CORRECTLY in that environment there is no rebellion. " (~Jessica)
Yes, yes, yes - exactly!
My 2nd take on that - Seriously, if a person is raised in extreme restriction BUT raised to know that it is godly to be self-disciplined and very concious, very aware of the right and wrong of situations, I do believe that person will strive to honor God, and have a solid Biblical perspective as they explore life when they are on their own. Just my opinion there.
83. stamps and softball said the following at 8:11 PM on Aug 6:
Katalaya, I value your reply very much! I'd love to be e-pals with you so you will get mail from me soon I do believe ;)
By the way, learning from others' experiences is something I greatly appreciate being able to do, and have to hold for many of those opportunities my upbringing I think...
Thank you again for your encouragement!
84. KendraW said the following at 10:57 PM on Aug 6:
Well I saw the Bourne movie and loved it.
And I think it's possible to become way too legalistic about things too. My witness to some of the people I know is strengthened by the fact that they see me as a follower of Christ who loves them, rolls with the punches and will go see a movie with them. Friendship witnessing is about building relationships. Some of them I won't drink around because of the situation but I don't go around saying that I don't drink because it's a sin. Instead I focus on the greatest commandments given to us by God...to love him with everything that we are and to love others.
I can see how if I was stumbling around drunk or drinking myself into an oblivion that it would hurt my witness, and trust me I've sponsored many alcohol free game nights at school to prove that one can have fun without alcohol. But, having a drink with dinner or when you're out with friends is not going to destroy your witness. Now, if I was witnessing to an alcoholic or the child of an alcoholic than I wouldn't take them out for drinks and with good reason.
And I reckon that to the Jews in Jesus' time hanging out with tax collectors wasn't avoiding even the hint of evil. People were tainted by association those days.
I won't apologize for drinking or dancing at all. Nor for going to PG-13 rated movies. God gave us life and abundant life at that, I kind of figure that he meant for us to enjoy it. And again, I have friends who are agnostic who respect my beliefs and will listen to me precisely because they do not see me as a typical ultra-conservative Christian who condemns everything they do. Love is the key here people. Not guilt. Not shame. Not hellfire and damnation. Love.
85. BDB said the following at 11:20 PM on Aug 6:
P&P wrote:
>>If I had a choice between "You've Got Mail" and the the original "The Shop Around the Corner" starring Jimmy Stewart, I'll take the original any day.<<
Hey! We agree on something.
Jessica wrote:
>>So tell me, how would I, as a Christian walk into a bar full of... <<
Well, they're not all full of that. At least not right after work. Maybe it's better to go to a restaurant that has a bar. People on the outside see you walking into a restaurant. People at the bar see you drinking coke. Which, for some reason, they always put into a glass that is recognizable as a soft drink from across the room.
86. James said the following at 12:27 AM on Aug 7:
Felicia,
I'm 23, and I am a big fan of GOOD beer (let it be made public that I do not drink the nasty mass-produced beers like bud or miller or coors, and have never drunk such filth), BUT, I am a Christian first above everything else. I don't drink much, and rarely. However, despite our resident alcohol decryer (who is really stretching on somethings), I will say this: if a girl I'm dating doesn't like it if I drink then out of love for her I will not drink.
I think its important that something like alcohol be right there on the immediate "it's going out of my life right now" list of things to let go of. However, there is no biblical prohibition against drinking responsibly, just against drunkeness. Though I would also add that if you find yourself more prone to sin after you drink (even in moderation) then you probably ought to think about cutting out drinking from your life. That's not a mandate, or saying drinking is sinful, but simply an application from Jesus when He said, "If your right hand causes you to sin, then cut it off."
87. Susie said the following at 12:01 PM on Aug 7:
P&P-I've never seen the original "Shop Around The Corner", but I would like to at some point. Sometimes you can't beat an original. (like when people tried to remake Sabrina or Miracle on 34th Street)
My favorite movies are mostly chick flicks & LOTR. Oh, and the 3 Musketeers. (but you can blame that last one to my recently getting more into rennaissance fairs. ;)
88. xeres said the following at 1:13 PM on Aug 7:
Since this is an open forum, I ask this question: what is one of the things about youself you are still working on? In my case, I am strong willed (good or bad), which can lead me to be hard-headed and opinionated. I am laid back, so there are times where I don't also get on top of everything. Also, I have a sweet tooth :)However, God is good and I'm always in need of improvement.
89. Eliz said the following at 8:45 PM on Aug 7:
I should have stated something differently in my last post. What I meant to say is, I don't sit there stewing in my seat thinking to myself - I can't believe my friends are drinking like this, oh what sinners! I also don't sit there and tell them they are wrong & going to hell for drinking. I have a friend that does that, and she's a Christian, and it does not help in the effort to get them to go to church with me. They know I view drinking as a sin and they don't harass me about not drinking & I don't harass them about their drinking. Yes we talk about it; we've had discussions about why and why not we each view drinking differently.
I still view drinking as a sin and always will. Unless someone shoves it down my throat I hope to never touch any alcohol. Even though I do view it as a sin does not mean I will not meet someone for dinner that I know might order a drink. However, I'm not going to go to a party where drinking will happen or sit at a bar while they are drinking. I can't stop them from drinking but I don't always have to tolerate it.
That said, I get out in the world and I associate with believers and non believers. My Christian friends make fun of me for not seeing many movies over PG or for not watching the funniest sitcom on TV that has the world's funniest gay person in it. Quite frankly, I am tired of taking all that filth in because I feel like it just sits in me. Why is it we talk about being sexually pure before we marry only to fill our ears and heads with the other dirt we see on tv, movies or hear elsewhere?
I'm sure some will view my comments as stuck up or snobbish. Some may say I think I'm better than others because I lead my life differently and avoid certain things of the world. Someone said earlier they don't apologize for watching PG-13 movies or for drinking because God gave us life to enjoy. Well, I don't apologize either for being ultra conservative. I'm sort of in shock that I give my opinion (that I believe drinking is a sin) then told since I'm not condemning it (even though I think it is wrong) that I am wrong. I can't win. I'm wrong if I condemn them (is that judging them?) then wrong if I don't condemn them (I'm not being Christian enough?).
Jessica said what I wished I could say - I just can't get my words to come out as nice as she did.
To quote from an old Christian song -
"Oh I'm not perfect just forgiven, haven't yet arrived but I'm on my way, since Jesus found me and forgave me, can't say I'm perfect but I'm on my way...."
90. Leigh said the following at 3:50 AM on Aug 8:
WOW! What a forum!!
I was raised in an enviroment that when I was in my early teens I decided I was never going to drink. I came to college and all I heard about my first year was "Christian Liberty"...and met Christians who drank! I still was very adamant on my stance to never drink and even broke up with a guy because of my desire to marry a man with that same conviction. I never at any point would have said that drinking in itself was a sin, but it was the getting drunk. I grew up in the South where I have seen lots of negative effects come from alcohol. I argued that I have never seen anything good come from it. And would ask the question, "how is it profitable?" It was also easy to not do it, because the particular college I attend says that as a student I am not allowed to drink. To be honest, a lot of my thinking on drinking was based on pure ignorance. Having grown up and never being around alcohol I was under the impression that if I drank even the slightest amount that I would get drunk. I really had no clue about the stuff and was honestly scared of it. This summer, though, I decided to give the stuff a try. (I am 22) It has been an interesting experience in that I have learned that just because I drink a little something does not mean I am going to be left stumbling around in a drunken state. I am one that thinks that to have a "buzz" is at the point of being in the place of not having full control over one's self. I think it is at this point that it becomes sinful; therefore, I have not even been close to becoming drunk. I am able to enjoy a drink with a friend, but yet I know that I am still myself and I'm not going to do things that I will regret or anything of that nature. I have learned that different people have different limits...think someone with an Irish background! I am going to be starting school again soon and once again will be on "contract" so this time is coming to an end and that's fine. Who knows...I may come to the decision that I won't drink anymore even when I am completely finished with school. This has been a good time for me, though, to really understand that alcohol in itself is not sinful. To simply enjoy a drink is not wrong. I am now in a place that I can say that and mean it honestly...in the past I would say that but it wasn't a wholehearted statement. All this being said...I do have a desire to marry a man that does not have any desire to have alcohol in our home. As well as wants to be as holy in this area as possible.
91. Paul said the following at 7:07 AM on Aug 8:
Michelle,
"So, to make it relevant, is a reason for going to a bar honestly a way to show that being a Christian is different from the world? Sure, drinking may not be blatantly wrong, but it is associated with getting drunk. Even a non-Christian would be surprised to see someone who claims to be a Christian sitting next to him taking shots, or merely "socially drinking". That's just the way the world is."
No, that's not the way the world is. That's the way North America is. In other places (like here in the UK), pubs and bars are the equivalent of American coffee houses. Our pubs are often more welcoming places then a typical American bar, many of them are family friendly, with gardens and playsets (though of course alcohol is very much not for children, just like caffiene). Yes, alcohol is associated with getting drunk, but it's far better associated with socialising here (I wonder whether Christians should be instructed not to own kitchen knives because they can be associated with murder).
As it happens, the only times I have encountered non-Christians who were surprised to see a Christian sitting next to them in a bar, their reasons have had nothing to do with alcohol, and everything to do with an expectation that Christians would not lower themselves to associate with non-Christians (the very thing that Jesus caused outrage by doing).
To cut to the chase and answer your question directly, yes there is a reason for going to a bar honestly as a way to show that being a Christian is different from the world. In the UK at least, bars are the place, outside of the workplace, that you are most likely to encounter non-Christians and a prime place for serious discussion and evangelism, and they're a good place to relax with friends and just enjoy the fullness of life too. Quite a lot of young Christians here fellowship together in the pub after church (in the same way that you might in a cafe). Perhaps that means that British Christianity is wrong for accepting alcohol, and American Christianity right for not accepting it, but perhaps we're just different.
92. John said the following at 11:38 AM on Aug 10:
I haven´t been on this forum for a few days.
But my last post wasn´t posted. I didn´t receive an email telling me why.
The link I posted and my explanations show that clearly:
The bible never says that Jesus drank alcohol.
I´m not going to fill up a whole space here again, just follow the link, it addresses all of the scriptures people keep trying to use and explains them well.
(Quickly though, just a couple points, for those who don´t like to truly investigate:
1) The Jews knew how to preserve grape juice, preventing it from fermenting for a good amount of time.
2) Jesus was given vinegar on the cross.
3) The John the Baptist-Jesus comparison in scripture does not state nor imply that Jesus drank alcohol.
4) And, research the hebrew and greek. It makes a world of difference. Much better than the ¨Nearly Inspired Version¨
Also, recreational drinking of alcohol is a sin.
People keep bringing up the same tired points and sadly misinterpret scripture.
I know this may soud tired, but folloow the link.
Lastly, as I´ve stated, the ingestion of alcohol is NOT sin. And, there are two times in the bible where alcohol is actually prescribed.
93. Leah said the following at 2:46 AM on Aug 27:
John, you say that the ingestion of alcohol is not a sin. Yet you say "recreational drinking of alcohol is a sin". Where in teh bible does it specifically address recreational drinking?
94. Dan said the following at 1:49 PM on Sep 27:
Sorry this is late.
I wish list.
1. I wish I had not caved in and changed the time of a movie outing with friends due to fear of one persons selfish needs, causing a very good friend of mine to show up several hours early to the movie.
2. I wish I had offered a bigger and more sincere apology to my friend who ended up showing up early to the movie due to my caving in.
3. I wish I had clarified to BR that when I said "when we get married" I didn't mean to each other, but to other people.
95. John said the following at 8:18 AM on Sep 10:
More wisdom than you could shake a stick at:
Definition of economics:
the allocation of scarce resources that have alternate uses. Too many people leave off that "alternate uses" part, but it is still important. Every dollar spent by the government is a dollar that American taxpayers can't save, invest for retirement, buy school supplies or a car or a house, or pay tuition to send children to a better school. Every decision made by the government is a decision individuals and families don't get to make for themselves.
http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnStossel/2008/09/10/green_jobs
If only Christians and the American people would take heed.