Church Decline Tied to Delayed Family Formation
by Steve Watters on 08/13/2007 at 2:16 PM
The growing disconnect between Twentysomethings and church is a significant concern for church leaders -- especially those who work with teens, college students and young adults. In my role at Focus on the Family, I see stats about declining young adult church attendance as a driver for a range of new events, books and programs.
One area churches and parachurch organizations may be overlooking in addressing this problem is the role of family formation. In a First Things article called "As the Family Goes," sociologist Brad Wilcox reports that "The fortunes of American religion rise and fall with the fortunes of the intact, married family." Looking closer at church attendance research, Wilcox has discovered a strong tie to family formation patterns:
These patterns are even more pronounced among young adults. Using the same data, sociologist Robert Wuthnow found that decreases in marriage and childbearing among adults aged twenty-one through forty-five were by far the strongest predictors of declines in religious attendance among young adults in this period. Indeed, Wuthnow estimates that American churches would have 6.3 million more regularly attending young adults than they currently do had today's young Americans started families at the same rate that they did thirty years ago.
Dr. Wilcox explains that even while family formation is central to the life of a church, many churches are instead trying to fill empty pews by compromising Biblical positions on family:
The dramatic demographic changes of the past forty years, coupled with the failure of most churches to capture the attention of adults who aren't married with children, has led many mainline Protestant leaders to heighten their calls for aggressive outreach efforts to singles and adults in nontraditional families -- together with the theological innovations required to match these efforts.
I think one of the most counterintuitive "theological innovations" churches have made along these lines over the past couple of decades has been to shift their energies from helping young adults marry well to just helping them find fulfillment in their singleness. While this shift may have helped some single women feel a little less anxious about not experiencing marriage yet, it has had the adverse effect of allowing men to persist in pseudo-relationships and not take initiative towards marriage.
I suspect the growing concern over young adults and church attendance will result in people striving to show greater cultural relevance and increased spiritual fervor, but I'm curious to see how many churches will take the more practical (and research-supported) step of actually helping singles marry well.
1. Evan said the following at 4:30 PM on Aug 13:
It seems to me that it's the old dilemma of being in the world but not of the world. It is important for us to reach out to new groups, get people involved that wouldn't normally be coming to church -- but in this process we cannot buckle on what we know to be right. For most people in the long run marriage is the best solution, and if the church doesn't support this then who in society will? How stiff or gentle the touch is in delivering this message is a different idea, but we cannot give up getting people to do the Christian thing just to keep them calling themselves Christians. It's all part of progressive santification in my book.
"Come as you are, BUT DON'T STAY THAT WAY." John Burke's book, "No Perfect People Allowed," comes highly recommended by me personally on issues like this.
2. farmer Tom said the following at 5:26 PM on Aug 13:
But, but, but, marriage and family are no longer important, there are too many people in the world already, we should be more missions minded and worry less about a bunch of singles who are free to do whatever they want, since when is the church more important than personal freedom, I mean come on you can't actually tell people they should get married, that would be like rude, like ya know, sticking your nose into their private business, and furthermore, all these unmarried singles have lots of money to give to the church, more than those stupid people who have lots of kids and can't pay for all of them.
Did I cover all the excuses? I'll work on a few more, wouldn't want to forget any reason people use to avoid raising children in the faith.
3. Seth said the following at 5:38 PM on Aug 13:
Perhaps church attendance declines because Sunday morning services should be the exception and not the norm. People like to expouse the statement that church is the congregation and not the building, and the more I see how church structure works the more I think that small groups should be the main way churchs meet and the large coming together of the whole congregation should happen less frequently.
Sunday morning services seem to be too large in alot of moderate sized and bigger churchs to grow a community amongst the members with much success. I much prefer the times I spend praying, listening to sermons on a video, or singing praises to God with my friends over at one of our houses. I think that was the way church was really meant to be, a real community, the church today seems to have a huge disconnect in that area. Not all churchs are like that but a great many are and I think the community people expect when they go to church doesn't exist in most of them. I think this lack of community building amongst members of a church is the single greatest problem with people not continuing to stay connected in the body of Christ.
There is a time to talk, a time to pray, a time to praise, a time to learn, and a time to work together. Hopefully all of these things are knitting us together rather then a lack of these things tearing us apart. Our culture already isolates people really well, we should be reaching out to be bring them into a community of openness and show them the real love of God.
That said, I can see how a correlation between fewer people getting married and lack of commitment to somewhere like a church could be drawn, especially a community that is supposed to be so interconnected. But I do not think it is the main concern, I think it is a symptom of a greater problem.
4. Jennifer said the following at 7:30 PM on Aug 13:
Steve, brilliant quote right here:
"I think one of the most counterintuitive "theological innovations" churches have made along these lines over the past couple of decades has been to shift their energies from helping young adults marry well to just helping them find fulfillment in their singleness. While this shift may have helped some single women feel a little less anxious about not experiencing marriage yet, it has had the adverse effect of allowing men to persist in pseudo-relationships and not take initiative towards marriage."
And we must remember that even though evangelical churches are more successful at holding the attendance of single men than the mainline ones, as far as the "gift of singleness contentment sermon" goes, it's a message that has developed almost entirely within the evangelical establishment. I almost wonder if it was designed to keep a lid on the complaints of the surplus single women! Or maybe that's just a "value added" effect that unfortunately has kept this rogue theology from sooner re-examination.
5. Nell said the following at 9:11 PM on Aug 13:
This topic has surfaced alot in my life this week. My brother and a new guy in my life do not attend church (ages:22 and 23). Are young adults getting "burned" by churches? Are they out in the world finding themselves? Are they so immature in life, they cannot see the need for fellowship?
I attend a college/singles Sunday School class at a large church, but attracting and keeping members is constantly a problem. Any advice, comments, or words of encouragement?
6. Kay said the following at 4:17 AM on Aug 14:
Regarding Neil's comment about attracting and keeping members: I just read this morning in Renovation of the Heart in Daily Practice by Dallas Willard and Jan Johnson, that perhaps churches, Bible studies, etc. focus too much on the "vessel" and keeping it alive rather than on the "treasure" - "the real presence of Jesus Christ in our midst, living with increasing fullness in every essential dimension of the personality of the individual devoted to him as Savior and Teacher." (p.162) I highly recommend the book or ANY book by Dallas Willard. I have been convicted to examine my own attitudes toward church attendance and evangelism.
God bless!
7. Terry said the following at 6:47 AM on Aug 14:
Two comments, which are not criticisms but concerns.
1. Just as a church can offer a range of instruction aimed at various levels of age and spiritual progress, aren't single people worthy of the same consideration? I don't refer to the church teaching dubious "gift of singleness" messages, but acknowledging that single people are part of the Body, too.
2. I agree that it's a worthy goal to help single people marry well, but how much can the church really do? How much "assistance" or "advice" would be effective to, or welcomed by, adults who (because of family history, or unrealistic spouse ideals) are cautious about marriage?
8. Justin said the following at 7:36 AM on Aug 14:
Why would any young person want to go to a church where they are going to pressure you to get married?
9. KJ said the following at 7:41 AM on Aug 14:
It is interesting to note the mass exodus of single young adults from the church. And it may be true that some wander back once they become parents. But I don't think it's fair to point to the church and say, "You should be pressuring them to get married sooner, otherwise they'll fall away from God!" If a person's faith is real, he/she is going to stay faithful to God and the church. If a person's faith isn't real, he/she is going to find that other things are more important. Some folks who found church wasn't so important when they were single come back because they don't want their children to be raised without spiritual training, and that's good for the kids, but shows the weakness of the parents' own faith, not a flaw in the church.
By the way, I don't think churches are doing a perfect job with singles. Not by a long shot. But even so, that doesn't justify young adults leaving in droves either.
10. Sara said the following at 8:16 AM on Aug 14:
This article is exclusively about numbers: no distinction is made between churches having large memberships simply because the parents have more kids, and churches having large memberships because they appeal to previous non-Christians who find truth and fulfillment there.
In the same way we first speak the language our parents speak, before possibly learning more languages we choose later in life, so too do children usually follow, if any, the religion of their parents, whatever it is, until they get to an age where they're exposed, more than just in passing, to other religions (i.e. usually in their 20s).
Urging Christians to have more children than non-Christians in order to outnumber them or something isn't 'real' church growth to me.
11. xeres said the following at 9:39 AM on Aug 14:
Justin and Sara,
There's nothing wrong with family formation and pursuing Jesus your priority. However, I see what you are saying what you saying about singleness. But, there's a way help singles without all this schizohpenic. Here's what I mean. Singles are being asked by people they know at church with statements like "Are you marrried yet?" or "How come you are not finding a spouse?" or "Are your priorities out of order?". Later quite sometime, the singles get pestered by the same thing for a while. Yet, as soon as those same singles express their desire for pursuiting marriage to those some pestering busybodies, they received things like "Wait for the Lord" or "God has gifted you to be single" or "There's hardly any trials and problems in the single life." and just left you alone life as if the whole relationship dilenma is somehthing you have to do all by youself. Does anyone find this rather wrong and cold? I found it to be bad and pathetic :S
12. Esther said the following at 11:10 AM on Aug 14:
My church's very active young adults ministry will see 5 couples married this summer and fall. With all of the 10 individuals under the age of 25. It's been a blessed and exciting time. The church has encouraged godly relationships, but I wouldn't say there has been "pressure" to marry. As the individuals were involved in the church as singles, the spiritual growth they experienced naturally led them to pursue godly relationships, which was facilitated by the presence and availability of other young people also pursuing Christ. Yes, I believe that these couples will be a positive part of the life of this church for years to come. But it's not because they're married- it's because they've committed to serving Christ in all areas of life, including their marriage.
13. Samuel PG said the following at 11:24 AM on Aug 14:
I think I understand much of the frustration here with the message of "the gift of singleness" which really should be called "the gift of celibacy," but it was said above that this is a message that has developed mainly among the evangelical establishment. That simply is not true. Beginning around the third century the Church recognized that some of its members were specially called and gifted in such a way that they were to give their lives to the Gospel in a way that it would be best for them to remain detached from the commitments of marriage. This practice has continued to this day within the Catholic Church and has been seen in the lives of many Protestant missionaries.
I realize that any Roman Catholics reading this will disagree with my next statement, so please realize I am not trying to start a debate with the RC Church, but simply giving a Protestant perspective. The gift of celibacy for the sake of the service of the Gospel is incredibly useful for the Church and the Kingdom, and has its roots in the teaching of the Apostle Paul (1 Cor. 7:1,7).
It seems that the problem with this teaching within the Catholic context is that celibacy became a prerequisite for becoming a priest, whereas no such demand is made in Scripture. This can deter many who would love to live out their pastoral calling but who are not gifted for celibacy.
One difference seems to be in the fact that in past generations of the church marriage was the norm, and so a God-ordained life of celibacy needed to be explicitly commended. Today, marriage is not as much of a norm and so marriage should be encouraged. Celibacy should still be talked about and encouraged as well, but only within its actual context in the pages of Scripture: for the sake of Christ and his Gospel, not done selfishly but selflessly, not singleness with a side of dating but absolute celibacy with a commitment to that stance.
14. nikki said the following at 11:42 AM on Aug 14:
I have a kind of side note to what xeres said in her previous post. I agree with her post and I think there's a huge difference between encouraging someone and expecting something out of them. The strange paradox xeres brought up is one where older people expect us to get married, but offer no encouragement to that end. It could be that a lot of churches function the same way, in that they look down upon singles without providing any help or encouragement. And when I say 'encouragement' I don't mean encouragement to stay where they are; I mean encouragement and assistance towards getting people well-married. Very few churches I know of actually practice this, although the expectations are there. People, and churches too, should make sure their encouragement and expectations align.
My hunch is that the older people (our grandparents' generation and our parents', to some extent) are projecting the expectations of their day onto the people my age (mid-20s). Back in the day, young people were not so much encouraged to marry as expected to. Now times have changed and folks aren't expected to marry, especially as young as our grandparents' generation did. So they need to realize that an out-of-the-norm desperately needs to be actively encouraged if it is to be at all expected.
I'm not placing any kind of blame on the older generation, but for the most part they are lacking in their responsibility to lead and shepherd my generation (part of the reason being that we don't want anything to do with them, but that's another discussion).
Just my $.02.
15. farmer Tom said the following at 12:06 PM on Aug 14:
Justin,
Why would any young person want to go to a church where they are going to pressure you to get married?
Why would any young person want to go to a church were they practice temple prostitution?
Why would any young person want to go to a church where they condemn the sex act as immoral?
Why would any young person want to go to a church where homosexuality is considered a normal lifestyle choice?
Get a grip. The church is encouraging you to marry because it is the normal behavior of a a normal human being with a normal sex drive. "The marriage bed is undefiled" is in Hebrews for a reason.
The family is God's first provision for an ordered and just society. Lots of singles, living with no care other than themselves, is a recipe for a chaotic culture. If you doubt that, visit any major college campus.
The Word of God has very specific standards of conduct for the human race. If the Church fails to teach those standards and rules, the Church is failing in its duty, the people who go there will suffer, and the culture around it will see no difference between the Church and the world.
Why would any young person want to go to a church where they are going to pressure you to get married?
The correct answer is, because Scripture teaches that marriage is a good thing, and if that church wants the best for its members, it will encourage marriage.
16. J.T. said the following at 12:12 PM on Aug 14:
OK, I know that I am the exception here, but I am the only person in my 20s at my church. I really am not being pressured to marry, mostly because everyone (a) is so much older than I am in the church - mostly (in their 50s or older, hte church has been there since the Civil War) and (b) there are no prospects in the church. Either way, I am not worrie about it. I lead the middle school group and music on Sundays.
OK enough of my editorializing. Our church is growing, but mostly because of three now families each with at least four kids. So I guess this article is true, just remember, anyone can manipulate and present the numbers in a way that supports their opinion.
17. BDB said the following at 12:22 PM on Aug 14:
Xeres wrote:
>>Yet, as soon as those same singles express their desire for pursuiting marriage to those some pestering busybodies, <<
Hmmm...I've been careful to not tell the pestering busybodies anything at all...that doesn't stop them from talking about other single people, in my presence, about how those individuals spend too much time focused on their careers and need to change priorities, etc...
18. Seth said the following at 12:46 PM on Aug 14:
That is a really good point nikki.
19. Jennifer said the following at 12:53 PM on Aug 14:
Samuel,
Biblically speaking, there is neither a "gift of singleness" (evangelical lingo) nor a "gift of celibacy" (catholic myth). The most we can glean from the scriptures is that certain gifts may suit an individual to choose a single, celibate life: "MAKE THEMSELVES EUNUCHS for the sake of the kingdom" (Matthew 19:12). Nor do the NT scriptures mention any "calling" nor "being called" to singleness by God (although Jeremiah in the OT was told not to marry or have children "in this place" so that he could accomplish a certain divinely appointed assignment).
It is unnecessary and unadvisable to talk about, commend, or promote this kind of celibate lifestyle to today's Christian singles in general because Christ first made it clear in Matthew 19:11 that "not all can hear this teaching". A great deal of anxiety about sex and marriage has been created by well-meaning but misguided singles leaders who have tried to preach this message as something that must be seriously considered before being at peace to pursue marriage. Even to the point of needing "word from the Lord" as to whether "His plan for your life" is singleness or marriage-- even though the scriptures NEVER mention anything of the sort. However, Matthew 19:11-12 can be used to validate those already expressing a desire to "make themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom", such as those expressing an interest in monastic vocations.
What's more, "celibacy" (a personal choice) should not be confused with "abstinence", the latter being the biblical standard for the unmarried, regardless as to whether they are "gifted" for it or not.
20. Elena said the following at 1:54 PM on Aug 14:
I just read LifeWay's article summarizing its research report and noticed a sentence {see italics} in the last paragraph, which caught my attention. Ed Stetzer, director of LifeWay Research, said, "There is no easy way to say it, but it must be said. Parents and churches are not passing on a robust Christian faith and an accompanying commitment to the church. We can take some solace in the fact that many do eventually return. But Christian parents and churches need to ask the hard question, ‘What is it about our faith commitment that does not find root in the lives of our children?’"
Actually, he misphrased that question. It should be worded "What is it about our faith commitment that does not lay foundations for our children's own faith to TAKE ROOT in their lives?"
A parent's faith does demonstrate spiritual things to children, teaches them, passes on biblical truth. But the child must come to full faith in Christ himself. His parent cannot do it for him. His parent can lay foundations.
But as Barna's research has shown, too many Christian parents lack a developed biblical worldview, and they think/feel that they are ill equipped to teach their own children about spiritual things. And maybe they are underequipped, but they are equipped to some degree just by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The church's role is to partner with parents to help lay those foundations... help parents turn to God for those gifts to be fanned into flame and put into use teaching their own children in those teachable moments. (I'm sure Candice, Steve, Ted, and Ashleigh can testify to using those teachable moments in a Deuteronomy 6:6-7 fashion!)
We have a problem of a spiritual nature, intellectual/biblical literacy nature, and a leadership nature in our churches. The lack of leading young adults to marry well is only part of it—a part that ought not to be neglected, true.
Our love for God and love for one another should drive us to reach out. All too often though, the reaching out is more about increasing the stats and getting more leaders in to do the churchwork.
I think it's shallowness in our faithwalks that is the problem. I see it in my own life.
21. Shazia said the following at 1:57 PM on Aug 14:
Why would any young person want to go to a church where they are going to pressure you to get married?
"Pressure" might not be the best word; I would rather say "strongly insist" -- well, I prefer a church that deems marriage a very important foundation of a strong society and a strong family and a strong household, and I would definitely eschew any church that espoused (no pun intended) the gift of singleness school of thought.
However, such a marriage-supporting church should not be hypocritical in its stance of treating a single like an outsider yet refraining from any encouragement to that single on how to be more proactive in mate-finding. I mean, all these married people in church were singles once, were they not ever castigated? If so, they should know how it feels if they choose to be hypocritical like that.
22. Justin said the following at 2:05 PM on Aug 14:
The correct answer is, because Scripture teaches that marriage is a good thing, and if that church wants the best for its members, it will encourage marriage.
Fair enough. But you are going to have a difficult time attracting young members with that attitude.
I'd rather go to a church where I am accepted as a single person and not pushed into a marriage relationship. If I don't want to get married until I'm 40, then that is between me and God. Not me and the congregation.
23. farmer Tom said the following at 2:47 PM on Aug 14:
If I don't want to get married until I'm 40, then that is between me and God. Not me and the congregation.
You have been given freewill by God, I respect your right to make decisions for yourself. However, I also have the backbone and fortitude to tell someone what I think of that decision.
And I think it's very unwise to wait till your 40 to marry.
There are lots of reasons. I'll give just three, cause I'm short on time.
First, you are intentionally delaying sexual gratification well past the norm, will you be able to remain celibate until your 40? If not you are setting yourself up to sin. This is not only disobedience to God's direct command, it is also a threat to all the Christian women who come in contact with you. I would not allow my daughters near you. Your behavior is just plain abnormal and therefore I would consider you someone for normal women to avoid.
Second,
What ten year old child wants to have a father who is so old they are unable to play catch, ride their bikes around the park, go for a walk without the old man wheezing like a steam train?
Your child will have a father that is 58 years old when the graduate from high school. 62 when college is over and if your child waits till they are 40 to marry you will probably never see a single grandchild.
Third, No intelligent woman would want to marry a man who has already lived half of his life. What is there to look forward to in "till death do us part" when statistically, the guy is half way in the box. This is even more true if you think your going to marry someone 10 years younger than yourself. She has every probability of spending 15 to 20 years as a widow. In case you didn't know it, those are very tough and lonely years for women. Why would any woman set herself up on purpose for that kind of pain?
24. NeedACatchyName said the following at 2:48 PM on Aug 14:
Maybe my experiences are different from other folks here, but most of the single folks that I know who grew up in church but stopped going after becoming adults did so because they quite frankly felt like outsiders in their churches. Really, most evangelical churches are doing plenty right now in areas that could be considered "family ministries" (when I think of this term I think of the big three family ministries in most churches: children, youth, and married couples). Generally these areas are extremely well funded with lots of attention, time, and money directed towards these ministries, at least when compared to singles ministries. On the other hand, singles ministries (at least around my area, so as always, YMMV), are poorly funded, with very few offers from folks outside the singles group to help with the ministry. Furthermore, singles are tired of sitting through ten-week long sermon series on the perfect marriage, raising children, and other very marriage focussed topics that don't really apply very much to them, at least not at the current moment (as a sidenote, churches would do well to push topics such as these to small-group studies and preach more gospel-oriented sermons for other reasons besides avoiding alienating singles, but I digress). In addition, and this is really the biggest issue, far too many churches don't really try to integrate the singles in their congregation with the rest of the church. There's the singles group, which tends to be treated as an almost separate entity from everyone else, and the rest of the church, which sometimes tries to ignore that the singles group even exists.
All of the churches that I have seen with success in attracting young single people have one thing in common: they reach out to everyone equally, which means they don't place a priority in attracting young people, or old people, or single people, or married people, or any particular type of person to their church, but rather make every effort to ensure that all of their ministries are treated with the necessary amount of resource dedication and respect.
25. Christina said the following at 2:49 PM on Aug 14:
@ Justin,
So the issue then becomes Genesis 2:18 vs 1 Corinthians 7.
My views on marriage aside, I think that the church has done a poor job cultivating any strong community among young adults. The focus is either "Be happy in your singleness" (1 Cor 7), or get married (Gen 2:18). There's no balance. Personally, simply finding young adults in my age group that are in a similar place in their walk with God to hang out with, discuss with, study the bible with, fellowship with is a challenge enough and the church seems to have done little to change that.
Once the foundation is laid, though, healthy relationships can form, and those that are REALLY called to be celibate and pursue a calling that doesn't allow marriage can make a much more informed (and Godly and supported) decision. Without it, though, there will be men content with being single and not pursuing any decent relationship with any woman, and single women who are called to marriage wandering listlessly without meeting their call to be the life-giver (help meet or whatever you want to call it in Gen 2:18).
26. Jethro said the following at 4:09 PM on Aug 14:
Maybe there is something to the idea that alot of people, young and old, don't want to go to church because too many churches are intent on running the lives of their attendees/members.
I know people where almost every day of the week their time is occupied with one church activity or another. Every decision they make and every step they take seems to be determined, at least to some degree, by the approval of the church. If that's what you're looking for then it can be a great thing. But to it also seems pretty scary to some of us...
27. farmer Tom said the following at 4:29 PM on Aug 14:
The correct answer is, because Scripture teaches that marriage is a good thing, and if that church wants the best for its members, it will encourage marriage.
Fair enough. But you are going to have a difficult time attracting young members with that attitude.
Welcome to First Church of the Open Mind. We don't want God's best for our people, we only want them to be sorta you know comfortable in their current state. We don't aspire for the kind of relationships Scripture talks about, we just want our people to have a big bank account a nice house and a car thats paid for. We don't want families with children filling our church we want self-centered singles, consumed with what they can get for themselves. We don't want fathers and mother training children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, we want 40 year old single guys who live their life for football, video games and monthly trips to the strip club. We don't want healthy normal families with a heart of service, we want you to have high self-esteem.
That's not my idea of a church, sorry, although it sounds sorta like the kind of a church that would not encourage its single young people to seek marriage.
28. Samuel PG said the following at 4:45 PM on Aug 14:
Jennifer,
Your rendition translates Matthew 19:11 to say, "not all can hear this teaching," but I do not know what translation you are using. Checking every English translation offered on Biblegateway.com, it is repeatedly rendered "not all can accept" with a couple of "not all can receive" readings. BibleGateway does not offer every English translation, though, so I would like to know which you are reading from.
If the English translations I found can be respected, then Jesus is clearly not saying that we should not teach about singleness/celibacy, because it is not that "not all can hear it" but that "not all can accept it." Clearly Jesus was teaching about such celibacy, and so we cannot take from His teaching the idea that we cannot teach that same subject.
Also, if we read all of verse 11, we find that singleness is a gift given to some.
'Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given." '
Note that Jesus says that only those to whom singleness has been given will the teaching be accepted.
There are more teachings as well:
1 Corinthians 7:1 says "It is good for a man not to marry."
Following that statement, Paul recommends that the believers do marry in order to prevent immorality, but in 7:6 he says that this is a concession and not a command. In verse 7 he expresses that he wishes that all are as he was (celibate) and even describes celibacy as a gift:
"I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one man has this gift, another has that."
"This gift" is celibacy, and "that gift" is marriage.
In verses 8 and 9 Paul tells the unmarried and the widows that it is good for them to stay unmarried, unless they cannot control themselves.
In verses 25 and 26 Paul says that he has no command from the Lord, but in his personal judgment it is best for virgins to remain unmarried. He then tells those who are married to remain married, and advises those who are unmarried not to look for a wife (v. 27). In verse 28 he says that if you do marry, you do not sin in doing so, but that marriage will bring many troubles that he would like to spare the believers from.
In verses 32-35, Paul explains that an unmarried man or woman is concerned about the Lord's affairs, but that a married person has divided interests. In verses 36-38, Paul says that it is not sinful to remain single for the kingdom or to marry.
He sums up his position in verse 38, saying,
"So then, he who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does even better."
Perhaps you are not familiar with this chapter, but it should be abundantly clear that singleness for the Kingdom is a gift and a good thing, just as marriage is.
For the record, I am not saying this because I desire celibacy. I have always strongly desired marriage and to raise children, but let us not lump Kingdom singleness into a category of sin.
29. k. said the following at 5:14 PM on Aug 14:
I figured I'd give this a read since it's been attracting so many comments...
I'm not really interested in rehashing the old "women are waiting in droves, but men aren't willing to commit" argument, mainly because I don't care that much, or believe it either. I'm sure there are plenty of people in both camps. As a woman who is pretty ambitious career-wise, didn't meet her mate until close to age 30, and liked to date a lot (for fun, no less!), I'm something of an anomaly, I guess, at least in the evangelical world. It's too bad, frankly...why should one size fit all?? We should have room for those who marry at 22 and have kids at 23; for those who want to take some time off to focus on their career or climb Mt Kilimanjaro before they get married; and CERTAINLY have room for those who want very much to be married, but God hasn't brought that person into their lives yet (instead of beating them over the head with gloom and doom).
My church is all in favor of marriage, and our singles pastor does emphasize that. However, there's also a strong emphasis on living productively and healthily no matter what season of life you're in. Marriage might be a goal (and a good one!), but that doesn't mean you have to fixate on it to the exclusion of everything else. Personally, I don't think a healthy church is as focused on seeing its singles "marry well," as it is on seeing its singles "living well."
And I get tired of reading about the poor, hapless women who keep waiting around for Mr Marriage-or-Bust, while the men around them are killing time flitting about in "pseudo relationships." (I'm sure there's some truth to this; but I'm ALSO sure that there are men out there who feel the same way about the women they meet.) Women are not just passive observers in life; sitting there while bemoaning the lack of eligible men is not effective or appealing, and it's not going to change anything. Yuck.
30. Carrie said the following at 7:04 PM on Aug 14:
Justin,
Read this blog entry. I think it applies to you.
http://www.boundlessline.org/2007/08/me-god-and-not-.html
I would argue it is TOTALLY the congregation's business why you want to stay single.
31. Amy P. said the following at 7:07 PM on Aug 14:
I think that the reason that many 20 somthings don't like attending church is the following:
1. Lack of meaningful connection with other people (HUGE problem for me right now!)
2. Time of service (let's face it, the thought of getting up for a morning service on one of the two days a week that you have off is not fun!)
3. Moving to a new area of the country (it's hard to put down roots when you don't say in one place for long.)
P.S. I'd love to see Boundless do an article about how a young Christian singles should go about looking for a new church!
32. Chris Krycho said the following at 7:34 PM on Aug 14:
Justin - theologically, that's just plain wrong. It's between you and God, yes; but your relationship with God does not exist in a vacuum. To the contrary, it is intimately related to your engagement with those around you. This notion of "my relationship with God" is a modern invention of the individualistic Western culture; our relationship has an individual component but is largely corporate (the body relating to Christ as a whole).
Moreover, I don't understand why you wouldn't want a church that would find it its business what your marital status was - along with any other issue in your life. (I for one appreciate having a community of people that supports me in my desire to marry at some point, and that as such prays for me in that area, along with every other.) The church does have a right to intrude on "your" business, and you ought to be equally involved in the lives of others.
This is not to say that churches ought to be pressuring you "Get married right now, or you're in sin!" But it is to say that Christianity is not an individualist venture; and it is to say that a mature attitude including some degree of interest and encouragement in this area is far from out of line. At no point should we ever take the argument that a church shouldn't be actively supporting a biblical position just because it might be unpopular.
33. Shauna said the following at 8:36 PM on Aug 14:
I agree with this article, and here's why. I have had this same experience myself. I used to go to a church which, although it has many younger single attendees, does not provide any sort of guidance or support at all to them. In fact, I tried on two separate occasions to get involved in the church ministries and was ignored. So I've stopped going. (I attended faithfully for about 4 years.) I'm just disgusted with churches in general. I spent my teen years hopping from church to church with my family as we searched for a church home, and my college years as well, and not once have I ever felt welcomed or wanted at church, no matter how long I attended. I am 26 and single and would love to be married, but it is extremely difficult to meet any Christian men outside of church. And I don't just see church as a place to meet men, but as a place to refocus on my faith and relationship with God. I do truly desire this. So what is a person like me to do?
34. Ro said the following at 1:45 AM on Aug 15:
I was reading Phillip Yancey's book on Prayer. In it, he recounts a story of how visions in the Catholic Church required verification. So a priest told a women claiming to have a vision, that if she could come back in a week and tell him the sin he had privately confessed to God, then he would believe her vision was authentic.
She came back in a week, and the priest asked her if God had told her what his sin was. She answered sheepishly "God said he doesn't remember."
Thank you guys at Boundless so much for offering us this kind of grace in our singleness. For seeing our need, and for offering us the encouragement we are not getting elsewhere.
For encouraging us to get married, I offer my heartfelt thanks. You minister to us in this situation we have been placed in.
Church leadership really need to be getting this information.
I must say, people can be quite hurtful. They keep telling you to learn contentment in singleness (which we try anyway, and daily pray for), but offer no encouragement or prayer to help you marry. They will not understand that going against your natural drives God put into each of us for companionship is a difficult road, and sometimes we just need support.
But thank you again, Boundless, for your love in the practical form of encouragement. May God bless you as you labour to get out this message that has been laid on your hearts.
35. margaret said the following at 6:07 AM on Aug 15:
Is it possible that young couples who have been told by their (well-meaning?)parents that they are not allowed to marry until after college (or later) are compromising physically then not attending church out of guilt? I sense lots of Christian parents wanting to believe that their children have unlimited self-control, and the statistics are proving the exact opposite. Might this disconnect keep young people away?
36. Justin said the following at 7:34 AM on Aug 15:
Maybe there is something to the idea that alot of people, young and old, don't want to go to church because too many churches are intent on running the lives of their attendees/members.
Very true.
My point is that if you want singles to come to your church, then value them for being single. Don't try to change them to fit your view of the world.
37. Julia said the following at 7:48 AM on Aug 15:
If you think that its lonely in church as a young single, you should just wait until you are elderly. Last I heard, at least most churches have young adult or singles groups, but no groups for elderly people at all.
I think the real problem is how we feel the need to have a SEPARATE group for every CATAGORY of people. No wonder we have a sense of being disconnected from the body.
When I joined my small, non-denominational church, I decided to stay because I found a family there. I found brothers and sisters and fathers and mothers and grandparents and children in the Lord who loved me and welcomed me to their family. This spoke more to me than "theologically correct" teaching or "awesome modern worship" or "Sunday school" or "small group teaching" or "singles group" ever could. You feel so much less lonely in a community of believers like that. I have decided that even though the elders in my church haven't all been to Bible college and the worship team consists of the congregation and a poorly played piano and organ, I will stay where I am because "you will know them by their love."
Incidentally, I also found my husband in this tiny church - without the help of a singles group. The informal mentorship, friendship and example of older Christians pointed us towards purity and remaining devoted to the Lord while we were dating, and now into 3+ years of marriage.
38. nikki said the following at 8:36 AM on Aug 15:
margaret said: "Is it possible that young couples who have been told by their (well-meaning?)parents that they are not allowed to marry until after college (or later) are compromising physically then not attending church out of guilt?
i don't know if or how this relates to the church disconnect. But I know a LOT of parents, mine included, are extremely laid-back about a marriage timetable. Both my brother and I are in serious relationships, and we've both been told to "take it really slow." Which is fine advice, but my brother has been advised to wait until he's finished with dental school...five years from now...when he'd like to marry his girlfriend within a year or so. It's really hard when honest parental advice (our parents are very godly people) might just be bad advice. I know this is happening with some friends' families as well. So, carry on; that is just a side-issue pet peeve that I had to let out!
39. frannie said the following at 8:54 AM on Aug 15:
"I sense lots of Christian parents wanting to believe that their children have unlimited self-control, and the statistics are proving the exact opposite. Might this disconnect keep young people away?"
Wow, does this ever ring true in my life! At 25, dating a godly young man, my mother recently worried that I'm "too young" to settle down. I hinted to her that the sexual frustration I experience isn't something I should voluntarily lengthen when God seems to have dropped a wonderful man into my life. She was horrified and embarrassed that I would even allude to the fact that I have a sex drive. I think evangelical parents of young adults (18-30), think that "True Love Waits" seminars and youth groups sermons were a vaccine against sexual sin that will never run out. The blindness of the middle-aged church toward the rampant sexual sin amongst its congregants may be a factor in why young adults abandon the church. There is no confession, no absolution, and no exhortation, beyond what we received long ago in youth group. There is also no solution to the difficulty, beyond "wait for God to bring you a mate, and if you struggle, then you aren't content/holy enough." (Incidentally, the church father, Martin Luther, struggled mightily and frankly with sexual desire. And many figures in his life persistently suggested to him that he needed a wife.).
I can say that among every young adult group/singles sunday school I have ever attended, there has been a spirit of falseness, as if people were hiding a lot of who they really are. I gave up going to young adult groups altogether, and now attend a Sunday school with grandparents and baby boomers. I benefit from their wisdom and years in the faith. They love me and pray for me and teach me. The quarantining of young adults leads to much dissatisfaction with the Church, and quite a few fall away because they see hypocrisy in the young adults, but they aren't welcomed by the "adult" body (which you often need a wedding band to be able to join).
40. Carrie said the following at 11:28 AM on Aug 15:
"The blindness of the middle-aged church toward the rampant sexual sin amongst its congregants may be a factor in why young adults abandon the church."
This may very well be true. Thankfully, my church is the exception to this rule. My pastor is (in)famous for his wedding homilies that make grandmother's blush. There are times he has talked about the Song of Solomon and I want to flee the sanctuary out of embarassment. I once told an older woman in the congregation "I think I'm too young to hear what his Song of Solomon talks!". She (a married woman, 4 children, and one grandchild; the 3 children that are married have married in the Lord) looked at me and said "I think I'M too young to hear those talks!!"
Now, nothing my pastor says would be considered "inappropriate" unless you are a legalist. He talks about sex and the goodness of it in such as to make you want the good and not the bad. He has a gift, that's for sure.
41. Hermes said the following at 1:04 PM on Aug 15:
father Tom, I completely agree with you about the reasons it's a bad idea to intentionally wait until you're 40 to get married. But don't assume that all or even most of us Christian men who have made it out of our twenties still bachelors have wanted it this way. The things you point out are not very encouraging to those of us who want to get married, but have not had success so far in finding a woman who feels about us the same way we feel about her.
42. Jennifer said the following at 1:16 PM on Aug 15:
Samuel,
You said: If the English translations I found can be respected, then Jesus is clearly not saying that we should not teach about singleness/celibacy, because it is not that "not all can hear it" but that "not all can accept it." Clearly Jesus was teaching about such celibacy, and so we cannot take from His teaching the idea that we cannot teach that same subject.
Also, if we read all of verse 11, we find that singleness is a gift given to some...Note that Jesus says that only those to whom singleness has been given will the teaching be accepted.
Regardless of whether it's "hear", "receive" or "accept", Jesus is NOT saying that "only to whom SINGLENESS has been given will the teaching be accepted"! You are confusing those who are circumstantially single with those who are gifted in such a way that they might choose a single, celibate life for the sake of the kingdom. Note the three types of eunuchs in Matthew 19: those born eunuchs, those made eunuchs by men and those who "make themselves eunuchs" for the sake of the kingdom. The teaching is for the third kind. The first and second types of eunuchs aren't even mentioned as a candidates for this kind of exceptional kingdom service. It's not being single by circumstance or even having a low sex drive, it's about being gifted with a passion for the kingdom that exceeds the connubial desire. Note also, that this teaching was directed towards his disciples, the most devoted ones of all.
As for 1 Cor 7:1, you say that "'It is good for a man not to marry.'
Following that statement, Paul recommends that the believers do marry in order to prevent immorality, but in 7:6 he says that this is a concession and not a command." "Concession and not a command" refers to celibacy, NOT marriage.
As for verse 7, you say that "he expresses that he wishes that all are as he was (celibate) and even describes celibacy as a gift:
'I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one man has this gift, another has that.' "This gift" is celibacy, and "that gift" is marriage" This is not the declaration of celibacy as a gift, nor the celibate/single state as a gift vs. marriage as a gift. Kiwoong Son, a Korean NT scholar put it best when he wrote: "Paul had the capacity to control his sexual desire and he wishes that all men too have this capacity so that they will not be tempted by Satan. But Paul knows that he himself has the gift but not all. Therefore celibacy is not a gift. Celibacy is recommended to only those who have the gift of self-control."
As for other verses in 1 Cor 7 that seem to suggest that it's best to remain unmarried, these MUST be considered within the context of "the present distress" mentioned in verse 26: "Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. 26Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to remain as you are."
For the record, I'm not trying to lump all singleness into the category of sin, but rather pointing out some of the problems that have resulted when these two passages are used to promote celibacy. Please look over some of the comments on this blog and see for yourself how some Christian singles have gotten the message that somehow singleness is better than marriage, that it's something they should value and want just as much as marriage, that perhaps they shouldn't get married unless they absolutely cannot control themselves, etc.
Nikki made some interesting comments about the problem of "expecting" marriage without "encouraging" it. And although I sympathize with those who have experienced undue pressure to marry, we must also have compassion for those in the scenario described by Frannie whereby the sexuality of Christian singles is pretty much negated, as if it's of no consequence. Very dehumanizing.
In church climates where most are nice people who don't want to judge others or tell them what to do, I wonder if the GoS has flourished as a concept so that if a person is single after a certain age you can look away and say "oh well, I don't have to challenge them on that, since they probably have the GoS". What we really should be doing is getting honest about why so many Christians are failing to marry, a major reason being the exodus of men from the church.
43. Carrie said the following at 1:43 PM on Aug 15:
Frustration abounds when reading Hermes recent comment.
I've said this before and I'll say it again:
Boundless Line is FULL of people of the opposite gender having THE SAME frustrations. "Oh, poo. I can't find anybody of the opposite gender that likes me." HELLO!! We are here in abundance. Men, if I have to say this again, I think I may explode: Do you see any female commenters that peak your interest?! Then ask for some contact info.!! Seriously, I'm beginning to think men aren't as frustrated as they appear to be.
44. Emily said the following at 2:31 PM on Aug 15:
Justin's post: "If I don't want to get married until I'm 40, then that is between me and God. Not me and the congregation.
"Farmer Ted's Post: And I think it's very unwise to wait till your 40 to marry. First, you are intentionally delaying sexual gratification well past the norm...
-To a certain degree I can agree with what Jsutin is saying in this quote. Being a 26 year old single female, it is becoming increasingly difficult to find a suitable mate who you could actually stand to live with for the rest of your life. I dated a guy for 7 years who never once in the 7 years we dated was EVER ready to marry (and he was four years my senior) . Marriage isnt just a remedy for sexual gratification, or a cure for lonliness. It is a commitment that is grossly under fire in this society. I praise God that I didnt marry this guy, for I would have been miserable. But, I think that most young adults (18-22) who are marrying young, may want to reconsider marriage at such a young age. Were talking about the most important relationship in your life (other than with God), and honestly most young adults fantasize that their marriages will make them happy forever, that their spouse will fill all their needs,and that life will be wonderful. Marriage isn't just about making youself happy and not falling into sexual sin.
-I would rather marry a man who knew who he was in the Lord, was financially and spiritually stable, had some good life experience even if he was a little older in years. I agree with Justin on this, however our viewpoints are coming from the line of fire...were a different generation struggling to keep our head above water, and to walk the line in a day where marriage as a foundation is under fire.
-As for the "sexual gratification" that we are delaying until we marry at a later age...one doesn't blatantly choose to avoid having sex. That's completely ludicrous and somewhat insulting.
Farmer Ted posts: Third, No intelligent woman would want to marry a man who has already lived half of his life. What is there to look forward to in "till death do us part" when statistically, the guy is half way in the box. This is even more true if you think your going to marry someone 10 years younger than yourself. She has every probability of spending 15 to 20 years as a widow. In case you didn't know it, those are very tough and lonely years for women. Why would any woman set herself up on purpose for that kind of pain?
-First of all, No woman should blatantly refuse to marry a man who may be older. And, any woman who does should not be deemed "unintelligent." I've always been open to the concept of possibly marrying an older man. To each woman, her own decision in man.
And, quite honestly no person should ever feel stupid, unintelligent or niave for their choices in a marriage partner, regardless of age, occupation, race or any other factor.
45. BDB said the following at 3:06 PM on Aug 15:
Emily wrote:
>> I dated a guy for 7 years who never once in the 7 years we dated was EVER ready to marry (and he was four years my senior).<<
I've watched other women do this, and I don't understand it. Would you be willing to share why you dated him for 7 years if he was not willing to be serious about marriage?
Thank you.
46. Carrie said the following at 3:17 PM on Aug 15:
BDB,
Say it with me now: Lone-li-ness
47. BDB said the following at 3:31 PM on Aug 15:
Carrie wrote:
>>BDB,
Say it with me now: Lone-li-ness<<
Assumption: If a woman is spending the lion's share of her social time with a man who is not interested in committing, she will never get to know someone who is. Men who believe in commitment will not approach someone who they don't know and who appears to be attached.
Follow-up question: Suppose another guy stuck around for several months and observed the situation, then called your bluff and pointed out that the guy was not going to commit. How would you respond?
48. Samuel PG said the following at 3:58 PM on Aug 15:
Jennifer,
Let me begin by saying that I loved this statement:
"It's not being single by circumstance or even having a low sex drive, it's about being gifted with a passion for the kingdom that exceeds the connubial desire."
Something about the phrase "exceeds the connubial desire" tickled my diction bone (which is probably located somewhere near the funny bone).
Moving on, though, in re-reading Matthew 19, including the previous verses I have to confess that I interpreted it poorly. When Jesus said, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given," I was working under the assumption that "this word" would be His following statement, but it is clear in fact that "this word" refers to His former comment about the permanence of marriage, which seemed to have scared the disciples with such radical commitment. (Please excuse the run-on sentence). Anyhow, I was clearly wrong in interpreting that entire passage, although it still is clear in regard to those who have chosen to renounce marriage for the sake of the kingdom that there is a righteous approach to life that involves being voluntarily single for the sake of the Gospel.
You are absolutely right that in 1 Cor. 7:26 Paul refers to the present crisis, but in the preceding verses that give no indication of being affected by the crisis Paul also tells the unmarried that it is good to stay single as he does. Even in regard to the crisis, it seems as if Paul's reasons for remaining single would hold true in all situations. That is, if a person chooses to remain single for the sake of the kingdom and is gifted in such a way that he or she can do so without burning with passion, it is good for them to remain single. It is also worth pointing out that there is no such thing as "the gift of self-control." Self-control is listed as a fruit of the Spirit, a virtue that you should appear in every believer, but it is never listed as a gift.
I think your biblical interpretation and application comes through a great pastoral lens, as you do not want to unwittingly encourage singles to irresponsibly remain single. You are right to have that perspective, but we should not throw out the baby with the bathwater. It seems very clear that there are some believers who are called and gifted to singleness for the kingdom (otherwise, was Paul sinful for not marrying?), and therefore this important life option should not be left out of the church's counsel. It should taught accurately, though, by making clear that it is only properly done if done for the sake of the kingdom, and that it is a lifelong calling and not a temporary situation until they feel ready for marriage or that leaves them the option to date. Of course the vast majority of singles should marry and so marriage should be encouraged, but for those few exceptions we need to let them know that they too are pursuing a holy path and not simply skipping out on responsibility. If a church were teaching that you should not marry unless you absolutely could not control yourself, the emphasis would definitely be applied in the wrong way. It should be taught that you should be preparing for marriage unless you find in yourself a strong desire and the ability to remain single for the sake of the Gospel.
As far as churches being made up of nice people who don't like to judge others and do not encourage singles to marry, I do not know of many that fit that description. Many older Christians try to encourage singles to pursue marriage, but end up doing so insensitively to those who already desire marriage but have not found it yet. Christians should encourage the singles in their church to marry, but this should only be approached from the pulpit or individually by those who know them well. For instance, two of my good (male) friends have been dating their girlfriends for year without it going further and I, as a friend, talked to each of them about needing to buy a ring. Because I am close to them I knew that they were in need of such encouragement and I was able to prod them without offending them. They both now have proposal dates set, not just because of me of course, but at least partially due to friendly encouragement.
Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts. It's not easy for me to be proven wrong in interpretation but you beat me on Matthew 19.
49. Shazia said the following at 5:59 PM on Aug 15:
I hate to sound like a blasphemer but I wonder if the singles situation among Christians today would be totally different if Paul didn't write the 7th chapter of First Corinthians. Would our singles situation be better?
I really don't want to be offensive or anything. But I hate feeling guilty somehow for being very frustrated with Paul that he wrote this chapter because of all the stir it has caused.
50. farmer Tom said the following at 6:29 PM on Aug 15:
Emily said,
however our viewpoints are coming from the line of fire...were a different generation struggling to keep our head above water, and to walk the line in a day where marriage as a foundation is under fire.
That's hogwash. Marriage takes commitment, if your generation is failing at marriage then it does not mean you are "in the line of fire" it means you are failing to commit. There are people around me every day who are failing in their commitment to marriage, does that mean that I get some special reward because those people lack the integrity to remain committed to their marriage partner? Of course not, it simply means I have to renew my commitment to God and my wife.
Marriage isnt just a remedy for sexual gratification,
More foolishness, I will quote Scripture to you so that it may sink in.
1 Corinthians 6:12-7:9:
12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
13Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
15Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
1 Corinthians 7
1Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
5Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
6But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
7For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.
9But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
I said, First, you are intentionally delaying sexual gratification well past the norm, will you be able to remain celibate until your 40?
Your reply,
-As for the "sexual gratification" that we are delaying until we marry at a later age...one doesn't blatantly choose to avoid having sex. That's completely ludicrous and somewhat insulting.
Young lady, I am now a happily married man, but I did not get married until I was one month short of my 27th birthday. I dated a lot of different ladies(more than a dozen), over the period of 5+ years.I practiced self control on all of the dates I had, and not once with any of them did I engage in sexual activity, not once. I had never had sex prior to the honeymoon night with my wife. I had several young women suggest and one out right ask if I wanted to have sex with her. I blatantly choose to avoid having sex. If you really dated a guy for 7 years and never had any sexual urges or desires on his part or yours, don't bother getting married because the man who marries you will be miserable. You probably have the gift of celibacy. Marrying a guy who has a sex drive when you have none is a sure fire way to create a miserable existence for both of you.
Paul clearly states that the solution for the sexual urge is marriage.
Marriage isn't just about making youself happy and not falling into sexual sin.
What does this mean? I do not understand this statement.
What do you think marriage is?
Now sex is not the only reason for marriage, but you are attempting to but marriage on some kind of pedestal. Marriage is the union of one man and one woman for life. It requires commitment, self-sacrifice, sex and the husbands are commanded to love their wife, and the wives are to submit to the husbands. Quit trying to make it into some sort of fantasy mystical other worldly experience. Marriage is real simple if you follow God's rules. It takes obedience to God's plan, and commitment.
To Hermes and all of the rest of you,
It appears to me that too many of you want someone to tell you that nature does not apply to you. Well I have news, you are getting older every day, each day you delay finding a marriage partner you decrease your chances of having children(ladies especially), guys it increases the chances that you will be dead before your children graduate high school, college, marry or have grand children. The clock is ticking. Instead of being annoyed with these facts, Do something about it NOW. Guys call that lady tonight, don't wait till tomorrow. Ladies, if you have to dump your career, move half way around the world, change churches,
or follow the Biblical principle shown in Genesis, get an agent, an Eliezer, Abraham's servant, who found a wife for Isaac. Have an older couple, a parent, your pastors wife, someone help you find an eligible Godly man. In this world of easy communication, it blows my mind that you'll can't find someone with whom you have enough common interests to find a marriage partner. My brother met a Godly young lady through an online dating service, they've been married three years, just had their first child. Turns out after they met that her family and his family both had close acquaintance with another family. Yet neither side had ever met. Both sides had in common their theology, their Godly heritage, their attitudes about Godly living, even a common love of agriculture and the farm life, but they had never met. Now I believe God lead them together, but it required their action by posting their info on that dating service. Do it now
51. farmer Tom said the following at 6:51 PM on Aug 15:
Shazia,
In my previous post, I included I Corinthians 6. I am convinced that to many well meaning Christians read chapter 7 with out reading the last half of chapter 6. Paul message was really very clear. To avoid fornication, it is better to marry. Anything else he says in the rest of chapter 7 hinges on that statement. I do not believe that this passage gives us any other choice. If your sex drive is causing you to burn with passion, you are to get married.
Why, because fornication(sexual immorality) is a sin against the temple of the Holy Ghost(your body).
Too many "christian" singles today are convinced that sexual desire is a sin, it is not, that they can control that desire by avoiding male/female relationships, they can not they will still burn with passion, and that they must find someone who is financially stable, pretty/handsome articulate, funny, charming and on and on and on before they can get married.
I'm not saying that sex is the only reason to get married but Paul clearly says it one of the big ones. See the passage above again.
A much better plan for finding a marriage partner would be as follows, do I have the desire for sexual intimacy? If the answer is no, fine, you are unique, have a happy life, God Bless You. If the answer is yes. Then search for a man/woman who lives life by the principles of Galatians 5:22-25 does not exhibit
any of the characteristics of Galatians 5:19-21, and seek to build a relationship with that person.
The love part comes later, since love is an action. I would enjoy writing an entire post on this subject for Boundless.
52. Jennifer said the following at 7:40 PM on Aug 15:
Samuel,
Many thanks for your good cheer and willingness to look at other perspectives on these verses. Sorry if I come across as a bit empassioned, but it's been a long road trying to put these issues on the radar in Christianland!!
Just a few minor bits:
You said "'this word' refers to His former comment about the permanence of marriage". But I think it refers to "the eunuch challenge", because Jesus repeats the condition "let those who can receive it, receive it" at the end of verse 12.
"Even in regard to the crisis, it seems as if Paul's reasons for remaining single would hold true in all situations. That is, if a person chooses to remain single for the sake of the kingdom and is gifted in such a way that he or she can do so without burning with passion, it is good for them to remain single". Well, I don't think you can interpret in without taking "the present crisis" into account, but all in all, I think the operative word is "good" (as in meeting a good standard) as opposed to "better", (as was mistranslated by the Living Bible, also the author of the misreading of verse 7 as "God gives to some the gift of marriage, and to others the gift of singleness". BTW- it was probably the Living Bible that first coined the term "gift of singleness" most likely as a protestant reworking of "the gift of celibacy").
"It is also worth pointing out that there is no such thing as 'the gift of self-control'" Good point. Because the scriptures never label any specific gifts when talking about celibacy and singleness, we can only guess how some might be gifted in some way or another that would enable them to be celibate or single. I think we should respect the mystery of such gifting and not put labels on it, like "gift of celibacy....singleness", etc. At the same time, as much as self control is a fruit of the spirit, there's no reason to think that some people might possess more innate abilities that would enable them to control themselves in certain areas.
"It seems very clear that there are some believers who are called and gifted to singleness for the kingdom...that it is a lifelong calling and not a temporary situation until they feel ready for marriage or that leaves them the option to date." Nowhere in the Bible is anyone "called" or told by God to be single for life. To use the word "calling" suggests that He may come up and tap you on the shoulder and say "no marriage for you". And there are countless young believers who fear that this may happen to them! We could say for the sake of argument that we should be willing to give up everything for God, but in practice, to suggest to young people to give up the desire for marriage makes too many of them neurotic (and renders the teachers as hypocrites, because really, has anyone ever truly given that up?).
So although we need to support those gifted individuals who truly are choosing to remain unmarried for the sake of the kingdom, as well as be sensitive to the involuntarily single that you mention, we need to do so without evoking the lingo of "the gift of singleness" or "called to singleness", because of all the baggage that goes with it. As you can probably tell from the articles on Boundless, there's a bit of a reform taking place in the area of teachings to Christian singles ("rethinking the GoS" being one of them).
53. Carrie said the following at 7:42 PM on Aug 15:
BDB,
Great hypothetical that I don't have a good answer. I would hate to think that I'd ever be caught in a long, un-committed relationship. However, I can understand why it happens. Loneliness does not enable one to think clearly. On top of loneliness there is the noble trait of loyalty tat does a disloyal service by forcing the girl to stick around in hopes of being able to help him change for the better and see the error of his ways.
I feel bad for good guys who see this and try to bring the girl out of such a situation. Sin messes with good intentions.
54. Jennifer said the following at 8:04 PM on Aug 15:
Shazia,
I don't think the problem is with Paul writing 1 Cor 7, since there were plenty of people lauding celibacy in his day and prior to it. If anything, he was trying to say that both kingdom celibacy and marriage were good, with some emphasis on the former "for the sake of the present distress". I think the problems with interpreting the passage started in the early church, still very much influenced by platonic ideals about celibacy. I don't know when they started using the term "the gift of celibacy", but clearly, it's not in the passage itself.
I have a theory that as the trouble created by "the gift of celibacy" concept began to be recognized by the protestant world (ie. sex scandals involving manditorily celibate priests), alternative perspectives on this passage emerged more and more. The Living Bible seems to have been the first to coin the term "gift of singleness" and I suspect it was their way of mitigating the Catholic notion of the "gift of celibacy". And of course, if you swap one non-biblical term for another you only wind up with a new set of problems.
Take heart, reform is at hand!!
55. Emily Hughes said the following at 8:48 PM on Aug 15:
Repsonse to BDB,
I began dating this guy when I was 17 and finally broke it off when I was 24. I dated him in my youth when I was incredibly niave and unexperienced in the ways of relationships. For years he told me he loved me and wanted to marry me, however he never could finish school and pay off his debt, to make a marriage somewhat possible. Because I had never dated anyone else, I thought that this behavior was normal and acceptable. I thought that I needed to be patient and wait it out. But, finally a light bulb went off in my mind at 24. (LITERALLY!) And, I thought why am I still dating a man who realistically couldnt ask me to marry him and be able to provide for a wife?
Probably one of the worst things was seeing our friends date and marry in less time than we had dated. I sat there thinking to myself, if this guy really loved me he would have A. never seriously dated me if he couldn't propose within two years and B. Would have worked harder to finish school and spend his money more wisely if he was serious about being a provider.
I was young and niave and unsure of what a adult relaltionship was. Breaking up with him and being on my own, while dating other people has been one of the greatest opportunities for growth I have ever experienced.
All in all, women usually hope for the best, however in my case and many other girl's cases, this only leads to heartbreak.
56. Andrew (tlw) said the following at 8:56 PM on Aug 15:
Xeres,
Great point! I experienced that myself so often. And people often use the same logic if you express dissatisfaction with your work. “Be content” they say. “”Learn to love it,” they say, without even asking about the circumstances, whether your gifts and talents are being used, or the background of the situation and how it came about. Its insulting, because it’s implying that the listener is totally incapable of exercising Godly discernment and just wants to escape their current circumstances.
Justin,
I’ve been there and it’s not pleasant to be told to do something you disagree with, like slapping a ring on the first available finger. However, there is nothing wrong with appropriate encouragement to get married. We always have the right to say no – we don’t want to right now – or no – that’s not a good match. I know singles leave churches, but I find it hard to believe it’s because they’re being “forced” into doing stuff they don’t want to, like getting married and having 2.3 children.
I have no problem with expressing disagreement of another’s opinion, or of church policy, or of a church leader’s decision, provided I do so respectfully. If I can’t relate to others in church and disagree with them as needed, what hope do I have of leading a family, where conflict of wills occurs everyday, and good leadership is a prerequisite?
Of course you can decide when and who to get married to. But that doesn’t change the consequences of your decision. Married life is preferably commenced when we are still flexible in our ideas and able to accommodate the quirks of our spouse. Sure, you can choose a long period of celibacy, followed by a difficult adjustment to married life, and throw in a few young children around the house until you are deep into middle age if you want. But its hardly an ideal prescription for marital harmony.
Fair enough, some singles use their time productively and fruitfully and maintain effective ministries. But if a single adult is emotionally, socially, and financially able to marry, is insisting it’s their right to stay single but has no fruit to show for their works, aren’t they just negating their whole argument?
I acknowledge that some postings do come across as harsh. Many singles are actively involved, committed and giving to their churches, and not out “enjoying” an extended secular adolescence. Many older singles have not been able to find a spouse, and I think that in response to their situation, there is a fine line between a church saying “you WILL get married regardless of your preferences and/or objections” and “a good spouse is a blessing from the Lord” – and can we help you find such a blessing?
Carrie,
“Suppose another guy stuck around for several months and observed the situation, then called your bluff and pointed out that the guy was not going to commit. How would you respond?”
I’ve commented on this before. It takes a thick skin and some unsubtle comments. The girl has a number of options: 1. do nothing and drift along as is; 2. confront the guy in a DTR and ask what is going on, 3. ditch the guy; or 4. Disagree with you but stew on it for several months before deciding to do something – or maybe nothing.
However, be aware that the guy who makes the effort to point out the inconsistency can be painted as the bad guy. Oh well. All part of life’s rich tapestry.
57. BDB said the following at 12:13 PM on Aug 16:
Emily wrote:
>>Probably one of the worst things was seeing our friends date and marry in less time than we had dated. I sat there thinking to myself, if this guy really loved me he would have...<<
Ok, that paragraph was what I was looking for. Thank you. In your particular situation, I agree with all three of your conclusions:
1) Speed other people proceed towards marriage
2) If a man's financial situation is really not conducive to marriage, he should fix that BEFORE approaching anyone or talking about his "feelings" (and probably get hassled by the mandatory marriage crowd who thinks he should be "dating" anyway)
3) If he was already in a bad financial place, and unexpectedly met someone he wanted to commit to, he would work like heck to fix the financial situation
Andrew (tlw) wrote:
>>I’ve commented on this before. It takes a thick skin and some unsubtle comments.<<
Ah yes, I remember that. There's always a risk that telling someone the truth will blow up in your face.
58. Childless single woman said the following at 3:38 PM on Aug 16:
Farmer Tom - How exactly are women supposed to live if they "dump" their "career" (or job, in other words)?
How can women move halfway around the world, particularly without any employable skills to offer? What would they do about immigration laws?
Besides, it seems this problem is pretty widespread in the western/English-speaking world. Why would it be different in, say, Australia?
Changing churches sounds like a good idea, but it doesn't address the root of the problem, so has limited success. Actually, I think the problem of men failing to commit is actually worse in big churches, because the men have so much more access to female "friends".
Incidentally, trying to find an agent is not easy either. You cite the example of Abraham's servant. That was proactivity on the part of the male side. That is the part we are missing today!
You might be interested to know that I have approached a number of people at my old church with my desire for a husband.
One man, a senior pastor in another church who is also the accountability partner of my pastor, told my pastor's wife that I would not be suitable for recommendation for marriage as I was discontent with being single.
An elder I approached (a married woman), said that I needed to look "beyond" my desire for a husband and then it will likely just happen.
My prayer and accountability partner at the time (a married woman) said that I needed to stop thinking about finding a husband and that she was worried about me because of this.
My pastor and his wife gave me a stern contentment lecture.
One other person in church (a single man) lectured me on seeking first the Kingdom, and make me feel like a freak for wanting to get married and have children.
Another (a young married woman) said to me that I have the gift of singleness, and that I should learn to be content with it, like another of her friends who was also discontent but is now a missionary overseas and supposedly very happy!
I have now left that church.
I always wanted to get married at about age 26 and have my first child at 28.
I am now at the age that it is very unlikely that I would be able to conceive, even if I were to get married.
59. Samuel PG said the following at 5:33 PM on Aug 16:
Jennifer,
I get the feeling that you and I trying to say the same sort of thing but but are approaching it from the opposite sides. I think we both agree that marriage and child-rearing is a high and holy calling, demanding a huge amount from both parties involved and serving as a transformative process for making selfless disciples. Along with that, I think we agree that the vast majority of people should pursue marriage and children.
Do we also agree that there are some people, not many, but some who should remain single for the sake of the cross, the King and His Kingdom? I think we do.
I think we could even agree that marriage should be strongly encouraged and assumed to be the default position for singles in general. Could we also agree that the Church should publicly acknowledge that there are some people, however rare, who should not pursue marriage because they are to be dedicated solely to the Gospel? Would we be able to agree if we made it clear that the Church should lay down the guidelines so that no one makes the mistake of thinking that the forsaking of marriage for the Kingdom was the easy way out, or that it could be used selfishly? I think we could, but I am not sure. I'll be interested to hear what you think.
60. farmer Tom said the following at 8:58 PM on Aug 16:
Childless single woman,
First, I want to say that I'm genuinely sorry you have not found a marriage partner. I wish there was something I could do to help. That is why I am actively trying to help several young people that I know find their marriage partner. How far are you from Papua New Guinea, I know a nice single Christian missionary that is stationed there. He's in his middle 30's.
Anyway, I glad you tried having an "agent". Keep using that method even if some people are not helpful. What about your family?
What did I mean about quitting a career/job and moving across the country? I believe that too many of those who are choosing to be single are not doing the things that Paul talked about in I Corinthians 7. They choose singleness yet they have the same cares of this world that married people do. House payments, car payments, cable TV bill, credit card bills, and on and on. They claim to be living as though their goal is,"how he may please the Lord" but in reality their just a single person with the same cares, worries and pressures as married people.
Could you, tomorrow, declare yourself free from the cares of this world, and go where there are available marriageable young men who are serving the Lord or training for Christian service? Let me put it a different way. Which consumes you more, your job or your desire for marriage? Is the job/career your tied to keeping you from going where there are men who are suitable marriage partners?
I currently know several young men, who are still single and are in seminary training. They have made the study of scripture a priority, but they also have begun to talk about finding a marriage partner. Most of the young women they meet at Bible College though are not mature enough to be ready for married life.
Hunters talk about being in the situation where there is a target rich environment. Like a field with several dozen deer scattered along the edge of a woods, "a target rich environment". Maybe you should consider going to a place that is a target rich environment for marriage?
BTW, I'm glad to hear you left that church, too bad you didn't do it sooner. The worst part is we have read here of other churches saying the same thing to guys.
I wish I could do more to help you, but, maybe someone else who reads this will decide to find a location more suitable for finding a marriage partner.
61. Emily Hughes said the following at 1:47 AM on Aug 17:
Hey Farmer Tom
Being 26, I dont deny not wanting to have sex. I think EVERYONE here can agree on that. Your rubbing it in that that's one of the benefits of marriage doesn't really help the whole problem (plus, we basically all realize that). Finding a guy (even a Christian guy) who's willing to wait and respect this issue is ery difficult. Finding and securing a guy who doesnt pressure you is even more difficult. That's my point. But, nobody here needs to have it rubbed in our face that were failures in the Christian faith cause were not married and that we have issues because delaying having sex is difficult. And yeah sometimes it sucks being single....and for your fyi we do know what marriage entails...that's why a lot of us are not married yet....dont' try and insinuate that none of us aren't putting work into our relationships....or not dating....I've had my long list of frogs too!!
i never said that our generation lacks commitment....Marriage as an institution is under fire and attack....that's why so many of us are trying our best to not screw it up, and make a stupid decision. It''s not that we are intentionally delaying marriage. Sometimes it just doesnt happen till later, all Im saying is that it's friggin hard to be pure, and that it's a daily struggle. You should understand that, since you married at 27.
And I full heartedly agree that marriage is the remedy for sexual sin. I never said in my post that I didnt, I was merely pointing out that you shouldn't solely marry to avoid sexual sin....
62. Emily Hughes said the following at 2:04 AM on Aug 17:
To Childless Single Woman.
Thank you for sharing with us your personal experience. I greatly appreciated you opening up and sharing. I too agree with you about people's blatant, harsh, hurtful comments torwards a genuine and whole-hearted desire to get married. I don't suppose these people ever consider the underlying desire for a life partner or the lonliness that accompanies one's desire to get married?
Do they think that assuring us of the gift of celibacy/singleness soothes the wound of going home to an empty apartment, or watching tv with a cat?
I completly agree with you on the lack of activity on the man's side. I cannot you how often I send signals and work hard to put myself in situations to meet single, Godly men (everyday!) but to no avail, because the men would rather have multiple female friends, than invest time into a relationship. I do not lumy EVERY man into this generalization, but Im beginning to see why a guy won't commit when he can have the joy of taking out a different girl every nite, as many guys I have observed actually do.
Also, I am beginning to see a trend with many single christian couples engaging in sexual sin outside of marriage. With girls so willingly giving into guys demands in my college and career group, I can very plainly understand why these guys are not committing to or even attempting to pursue a relationship.
63. Emily said the following at 2:08 AM on Aug 17:
Hermes writes:
"...But don't assume that all or even most of us Christian men who have made it out of our twenties still bachelors have wanted it this way. The things you point out are not very encouraging to those of us who want to get married, but have not had success so far in finding a woman who feels about us the same way we feel about her..."
Couldn't agree with you more.
64. farmer Tom said the following at 11:49 AM on Aug 17:
Also, I am beginning to see a trend with many single christian couples engaging in sexual sin outside of marriage. With girls so willingly giving into guys demands in my college and career group, I can very plainly understand why these guys are not committing to or even attempting to pursue a relationship.
I believe that this may be one of the most important things said in this whole discussion.
Until the church calls these men on the carpet, pronounces this kind of behavior, on the part of both parties, as sinful, and then takes the necessary Biblical actions, we will continue to see the problems in the christian singles scene.
If there is no accountability within the church, sinful humans will act in sinful ways. We must insist on Godly behavior on the part of Christian singles if we are going to see change.
65. Franklin said the following at 3:23 PM on Aug 17:
Wow,
It seems to me that this website is OBSESSED with getting young Christian guys to marry and go back to church. But frankly, I think all of you are missing the boat.
First off WHY would a young man want to marry these days? Why? Marriage is an institution hollowed out by no-fault divorce. Don't believe me? Read this article by Vox Day titled "Stay Single Young Man":
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43732
Marriage, in its current form, is meaningless and worthless today. In fact marriage and divorce are two sides of the same coin (50/50 chance remember). If a guy happens to lose that gamble, he can lose half of his possessions and his own children.
Now, can you guys tell me again why I should marry in today's society?
Secondly, as for young men going back to church --- HA, like that is going to happen. Church is simply not built for young men in any way. Why? Because:
1. The church is effeminate:
Church is a place of safety where you sing kumbaya and "feel" the Holy Spirit. There is no sense of fighting or making a stand against evil in this world. (Eph 6:12) In other words, the church is stagnant and proud of it. Why would a young guy want to invest his time in such a place?
2. The church is irrelevant:
What organizations are making changes in American society today? MTV, ACLU, Secular Academia, you can say yes to all of those. The church is nowhere in that list, NOWHERE.
3. The church is a business, first and foremost:
Now I understand that tithing is a command from God, but you don't have to preach on it every Sunday! Especially when your church can hold 10 football fields and requires its own nuclear power plant for energy! Businesses are interested in making money, not saving souls. Why then do churches look like and act like businesses? Maybe you older guys understand the mega-church, I sure don't.
66. Emily said the following at 3:46 PM on Aug 17:
Franklin,
I can totally understand your argument concerning a view torwards marriage as redundant in this present day and age. Sadly divorce is all to commonplace as a remedy for marital problems when spouses arent finding happiness in their own marriages.
With the rise of couples living together as a "trial-marriage," Im almost shocked that ANYONE marries anymore.
Marriage is an institution created by God, not man. One can only hope that young couples who seriously pronouce their faith in God, will abide by their vows made before him at the altar...which, may be another reason one could possibly delay mariage, so that they are more mature and responsible when they make the plunge into the lifelong commitment.
67. Tami said the following at 4:04 PM on Aug 17:
Franklin -- God has not changed His viewpoint on marriage and His church. NEITHER are "meaningless and worthless" to Him, and He still holds us to the same expectations in those two institutions that He has held out for thousands of years. The breakdown of the American family and (speaking broadly) the lukewarmness of the American church are neither His idea, nor His ideal.
It's easy, and tempting, to be cynical. But I notice that your negative examples come from the fault of people straying from God's Word, not the Lord Himself (or a lack of faithfulness on His part). I think we (His people) still need to seek out what His intentions are for us, rather than ditch "institutions" because they appear hollow.
What's more, how would they ever be reformed, if it's not for those willing to stand for the Lord and His standards? He does the work, but we must still be willing to obey.
Do you truly want to see change in the church? Ask the Lord how He would use you to effect that change. It's one thing to remain outside a situation and be cynical; it's another to be a Nehemiah -- see the problem, and get in there and repair the wall.
68. Shazia said the following at 5:52 PM on Aug 17:
Many Christian women oppose most of the repurcussions of the feminist movement that has brought about these changes in society that you've described, Franklin. I can actually see the frustration that men are facing with regard to getting married, BUT where does that leave us Christian women who do not subscribe to the feminist movement and the changes that resulted from it? Where does that leave the Christian women who truly DO see marriage as a lifelong, permanent union that is not to be dissolved (with the possible exception of the other spouse cheating)?
The laws of the land can be changed and manipulated to suit today's "meaningless and worthless" standard that marriage may have been lowered to, in the eyes of the secular world that is. But that still does not preclude the fact that marriage is God's fundamental design and plan for the overwhelming majority of the population.
Franklin, what do you suppose you will do to satisfy your desires for physical and emotional intimacy, since you seem to express the obvious aversion to getting married at all? I really don't want to be rude, but there are basically three things: fornication with X number of sexual partners over X number of years, masturbation, and pornography. Of course if you have the rare gift of celibacy I guess you don't have to think about any of the three above options? Once again, I am not being sarcastic, but while I see the frustration on the part of men with the feminized structure of our laws that go against fathers (and I'm not trivializing it), I don't see the alternative that you think you will have as you get older and you intentially delay marriage. Do you really believe you will be happier living alone for the rest of your life?
I know I can't really change anyone's mind. It's not really my intent, it's only my intent to express my opinion. It's just paradoxical that men avoid getting married because they don't want to get a divorce. Either way they end up alone.
69. xeres said the following at 6:36 PM on Aug 17:
Franklin, if the apostles have your attitude, the Church in the first century will never grow. I mean, in Greco-Roman world, the sexual indulginces is at all time high and the worldview is just...hostile to Jesus, much less the Hewbrew thought of life, which is why Paul and his comrades have suffered so much. Plus, they didn't have the Bible put together, most people can't read, the Jews having prejudice against the Gentiles, shipwrecks and all the reason that could have dampen the chance for the Gospel to spread. God is greater than the cultural limitations and adversities we face. The apostles faced so many that most of us wouldn't never understand yet they are able to get souls and followers. He can do it here in America too. I admit, the American culture isn't at all conducive in living the Christian life, but the Greco-Roman culture and the Jewish culture weren't conducive either. No culture in any country is conducive for the Christian faith. However, God is bigger than this. If God was able to have Abraham to follow Him, then He will be able to do again in this century. Don't ever limit God of what He would do in this country. America is just as much of a mission field as any other country. As Christian, we should work with him on his plan, not wait for anyone to give us permission to change the world. Am I going to wait for culture or the an institution to change? The apostles didn't; they just go.
70. Louise said the following at 9:50 PM on Aug 17:
Okay, Farmer Tom, where are you?
Once you are done milking the cows, I'd love to hear your response to Franklin's post.
Who knows. Maybe everyone's computer will explode.
71. Jo said the following at 7:36 AM on Aug 18:
The general question in this discussion seems to be, does the normal Christian have an obligation to get married? I say 'normal' because people have claimed that to get married is the norm, and to have no sexual desire or to be able to adequately control sexual desire is very unusual.
A few points. First of all, 'normal' does not always indicate moral superiority, even when we're talking about a norm that is set by God. We are all individuals and our individual walks with God are incredibly diverse.
If someone doesn't feel ready to marry, wishes to go travelling or study more first, or to wait until they are in a better financial situation, or indeed if someone doesn't wish to marry at all - that is ultimately between them and God, as Justin said.
It is entirely appropriate for the church to take an interest in these matters, to gently challenge and encourage its members to think and pray about whether their reasons for such decisions are right and godly. If their reasons don't seem to be right and godly, the church can also chastise. But in the end, it isn't for anyone else to judge or condemn a person's decision; it is for that individual person to seek God's will and act accordingly.
Wisdom is a factor here, of course. If you're struggling with remaining sexually pure, it would be unwise for you to continue to reject the idea of marriage, and it would be wise to start praying about it and actively seeking a spouse. And if a person does fall into sexual sin as a result of being single, then yes, we can start talking about sin.
But if that's not happening and the person is able to cope with their desires, then it would seem they do possess the necessary self-control to delay marriage for the time-being, should they choose to do so.
72. Shazia said the following at 9:38 AM on Aug 18:
Yes I echo Louise's sentiments. Farmer Tom please get back here, we would like your input!
73. farmer Tom said the following at 12:00 PM on Aug 18:
Louise, I do not milk cows. My father did that for years and I vowed never to be married to a herd of Holsteins.
you can read about me at
farmeruminations@blogspot.com
Franklin
A very interesting post. You managed to say something very important and then get lost in the transition from observing the culture to personal application.
You are absolutely correct in your three criticisms of the church. All three points are true, and regrettably so. Further evidence of this feminization of the church can be found in the fact that some of the best selling books in "christian" circles are poorly written end times novels and a fluff filled trite piece of pablum which purports to help understand the purpose of life. This kind of shallow, emotion laden drivel is exactly why men do not find the church useful to their every day life.
The feminization of our culture and the church has in effect made men a useless and scorned afterthought to a culture whose existence is based on feelings.
But you make a horrible mistake in rejecting the church and marriage because of the perversion of those institutions by feminism. You also distorted what Vox Day said about marriage. I read and comment on that blog every day. You and I both know that his advice not to marry was to those who were not Christians. Check the comments on that article you mentioned and he explicitly says he is talking to those
who are not Christians.
You need a refresher course on why the Church is important. I Timothy 3:15 says, But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. The cornerstone of the Church is Jesus Christ himself, and the pillar standing on that foundation Eph 2:20 is the Church of Jesus Christ. The entire New Testament is written to the Church (Colossians calls it the Body). The Church is not to be lightly rejected nor abandoned. The writer of Hebrews tells the believers to "not forsake the assembling of ourselves together" Heb. 10:25 and to submit to the authority of the Church Heb. 13:7,17 Look how many times that the church is mentioned in the NT.
Yes the feminists have polluted the church, yes the church is ineffective and sterile, yes the church is too often run as a business, but that does not give us the right to abandon the church, rather it is a call to take a stand for truth, to take back the churches from those that would distort the truth of God for a lie. We must return the churches to adherence to the one and only infallible standard The WORD of GOD .
Your second error in logic is as bad or worse than the first though. Starting in the same place in I Timothy 3 where Paul talks about the importance of the Church, he then goes on to say that there will be in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
and what will those seducing spirits and doctrines of devils be???????
3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth..........
6If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ,.....and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.......but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.......10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
You see marriage is to be built on the same foundation as the church is built on, Jesus Christ. Marriage is important to the church, see I Timothy 3 regarding leadership in the church, the husband of one wife (this excludes women from positions of leadership in the church),marriage is considered a normal, natural characteristic of a man in a position of leadership. The writer of Hebrews 13:4 says, Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. Any attempt to abandon marriage because of the results of the feminists attacks are just as wrong as abandoning the church itself. Let me repeat again a direct quote from Scripture, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. This passage can be read without including the abstain from meats phrase and is is more clearly understood, I'm not saying leave it out, we are only reading for understanding here. Read it this way, Forbidding to marry, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. Marriage is to be received with thanksgiving. It is a good thing. We are accepting the lies of the devil if we abandon marriage.
What should we do then?? We refuse to accept the feminization of the church. We return to the Biblical pattern of male leadership in the church and in the home. We take positions that stand in stark contrast to the world around us. II Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, We teach the intolerant Truth that Jesus Christ is "the way the truth and the life, that no man cometh to the Father" except through Jesus alone. And we find wives who are as Titus 2:4,5 says, 4That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. Doesn't sound like your typical career oriented feminist now does it?
So the solution to the problem is not to abandon the church and marriage rather it is to renew the fight for Biblical truth, to stand firm for Godly marriage and a Church filled with people who know Jesus Christ as personal Savior and are committed to living lives that are pleasing to Him. Phil. 1:21
74. Carrie said the following at 1:14 PM on Aug 18:
Farmer Tom,
Its not like the same question hasn't been asked a hundred times over on different blog posts, but the question begs to be asked again.
You say:
"So the solution to the problem is not to abandon the church and marriage rather it is to renew the fight for Biblical truth, to stand firm for Godly marriage and a Church filled with people who know Jesus Christ as personal Savior and are committed to living lives that are pleasing to Him."
What are women supposed to do when they desire to "stand firm for marriage"? For those of us who are waiting for someone to initiate interest in us, how do we approach the idea of marriage without bitterness and jealousy?
75. k. said the following at 4:08 PM on Aug 18:
Oh, heaven help us, Farmer Tom's discovered the bold tag.
76. Sarah said the following at 4:32 PM on Aug 18:
Carrie, I know your question was directed to Farmer Tom, yet I wonder if I might offer what God has been showing me in that regard.
I understand the line of questioning. Next month I'll be celebrating another birthday, and wondering where the years have gone. While I'm still in my late 20's, the years seem to be flying by, especially since not only am I single, but prospect-less.
I live in a metropolis area, and have many friends and acquaintances. By all means, I shouldn't have a problem finding a husband, especially since I've adhered to many of the suggestions offered on this site, yet married life still seems to elude me.
I've wrestled with not becoming bitter and jaded due to my present state of singleness. How can I accomplish that?
God lead me to Matthew 5:8, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God."
God was calling me to keep my heart pure. It was when I wasn't focusing on Him, that doubt, bitterness, and other things could creep in and rob me of all that God had for me during this time in my life.
I think the key is simply that. To keep our heart pure. It isn't an easy task, to be sure, yet, it isn't impossible either.
I've come to look at my singleness in two different ways:
1. I can choose to completely forsake God's best for me, and settle.
or
2. I can keep my focus on Him, look for the areas in my life/heart/soul that He wants to perfect; thereby attaining a pure heart.
I choose the second. But I understand it's a choice, I have to get up everyday and CHOOSE to not listen to the lies of the devil. I have to choose to press into Him, despite the outward appearances.
I've come to learn that I can't change my present set of circumstances, but I can certainly change the way I think of them. And by choosing God, I can have joy, peace and happiness being single.
77. farmer Tom said the following at 6:30 PM on Aug 18:
Carrie, I tried to address your question on a post from Aug. 16 at 8:58 PM.
What are women supposed to do when they desire to "stand firm for marriage"? For those of us who are waiting for someone to initiate interest in us,
Two things I will add to that,
First there are what economists call opportunity costs. Some people desire to be a corporate CEO. To follow that career path, they spent thousands of dollars on the right college education, they work long hours in the rat race, climb over other workers to achieve their goal. The cost is the initial investment in paying for college, the time they spend working when they could actually have a life, and the friendships and acquaintances that are dumped to climb over that person on the way to the top.
If you sincerely desire marriage there may be some opportunity costs associated with that goal. It may mean giving up a well paying job, it may mean leaving your home church, family and friends, and it may mean going to some place in the middle of nowhere like Iowa or Missouri, northern Wisconsin, South Carolina, North Carolina, Florida or Virginia. Places where there are lots of Godly Christian young men who believe in traditional marriage, traditional family and want to build homes where Jesus Christ is the cornerstone.
Second, I reject the premise of this part of the question, For those of us who are waiting for someone to initiate interest in us, . I believe that is a false assumption. Go read the Book of Ruth again. I am quite sure that Ruth and Naomi initiated the first move by going to where the eligible man was at. Rebekah was down at the well watering the camels, she was in a place where all of the visitors to her community would have to get water. She put herself in a position to be the woman that helped Abraham's servant Elihezer. In other words they weren't sitting at home praying for a husband, they were out in places where they could meet potential marriageable men.
I firmly believe that there is nothing wrong with a Godly Christian woman making known to a man she finds interesting that she would like an opportunity to get to know him better. This is where having an agent is important. Have a Godly older woman approach the young man on your behalf. Something like "Carrie is a Godly young woman looking for a potential marriage partner, she has been impressed with your attitude of service and gentle demeanor, if you would be interested in getting to know Carrie better, I would be glad to provide the setting where you two could meet. Come over to my house for supper on Friday evening and I will introduce you to Carrie."
He can say yes or no, but you just made the first move.
78. Samuel PG said the following at 12:49 AM on Aug 19:
Farmer Tom,
I appreciate your thoughtful reply to Franklin, but you disappointed me by conceding too much.
"Yes the feminists have polluted the church, yes the church is ineffective and sterile, yes the church is too often run as a business, but that does not give us the right to abandon the church, rather it is a call to take a stand for truth, to take back the churches from those that would distort the truth of God for a lie."
Feminists have polluted the Church? Really, feminists have polluted the entire Church that is to be found in North America? That seems like a bold statement. No doubt feminists have had an influence on some quarters of the church (whether that is good or bad or some of each) but it is hard to make the case that they have impacted the Church in its entirety. Beyond that, your concession on that point related to Franklin's claim that the Church is a place to sing kumbaya and feel the Holy Spirit, without any mention of taking a stand against evil. There probably are some congregations like that, but that is by no means the whole Church.
I am by no means a feminist, I would consider myself a complementarian in regard to gender, but I find your comments about the feminization of the Church to be poorly thought out, baseless and insulting to Christian women.
You wrote,
"Further evidence of this feminization of the church can be found in the fact that some of the best selling books in "christian" circles are poorly written end times novels and a fluff filled trite piece of pablum which purports to help understand the purpose of life."
What in the world do poorly-written fluff books filled with trite material have to do with femininity? Women can and do both read and write well. Women are not especially attracted to fluffy reading and have no peculiar bent toward the trite.
One more note on the femininity of the Church:
God created man both male and female in the image of God. Apparently masculinity and femininity at their best both represent aspects of who God is. I realize that there is a recent proliferation of books such as "No More Christian Nice Guy" and "Why Men Hate Going to Church," but there is nothing evil about the genuine feminine influences on the Church. If some congregations are overly effeminate, it is not because the women have too much influence but because the men are not exerting a masculine influence as well. Men hate going to church because it is too feminine? It is feminine because the average church has more women than men faithfully attending and serving, because so many men are copping out of their responsibilities. This may seem like semantics, but look at the implications of the different ways of stating this:
If the Church is in trouble because it has been overly feminized, than the answer is to discourage women from being involved and serving.
If the Church is in trouble because it lacks the balance brought in by the masculine, then the answer is to encourage more men to step up.
Thus, I do agree with your prescription of having men take on their responsibilities at Church, but not with your diagnosis of the disease.
The Church is sterile and ineffective? It seems as if the Church is still doing quite well in making disciples, introducing lost souls to Christ, ministering to the needs of the poor and the oppressed, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and much more. That is neither sterile nor ineffective.
Is the Church too often run as a business? This one I can agree with, because if even one church is run as a business it is too often. I assume that at least one congregation is run in this way.
I realize that sometimes churches need loving criticism, but such general blanket statements do not do justice to the state of the Church. Please remember that the Church you referred to in passing as ineffective and sterile is the same Church that Jesus said could not be held back by the very gates of Hell.
79. Samuel PG said the following at 1:05 AM on Aug 19:
Franklin,
In a way I responded to a portion of your post in my above response to Farmer Tom, but there is one point of your post that I want to respond directly to.
You said,
"2. The church is irrelevant:
What organizations are making changes in American society today? MTV, ACLU, Secular Academia, you can say yes to all of those. The church is nowhere in that list, NOWHERE."
First of all, it is a very poor argument to concoct your own list of organizations making changes in American society and then point to the lack of the Church in the list that you just made. It would be like me saying, "Look at the foods that are good for you: Milk, Oranges, Celery, Eggs. Apples are nowhere on that list so they must not be healthy."
You are right that there are many non-Christian and even some anti-Christian influences on society coming down from positions of power, such as many institutions of higher education, many major media conglomerates, and many political activist groups. On a tit-for-tat level, there are analogous Christian organizations for each of those categories. More importantly, though, the Church has always done its best work at influencing society from the bottom-up, not from the top down. Even if the Church had no colleges, no media outlets, and no political activity, it would still be having a huge impact on society, although you would not see it in news reports. By taking care of widows, orphans, aliens, the sick, the lonely and the poor; by providing homes for the homeless and food for the hungry; by introducing people to Jesus Christ and seeing souls saved and lives changed; by casting out demons and refusing to conform to the sinful patterns of the world the Church would still be having a huge impact. In fact, the positions of power for the Church seem to be anomalies. The Church we find in the Bible had no such power, but simply reached out to every person it encountered and affected society one person at a time. Your despair is neither helpful nor fitting for the actual situation. The apostle Paul faced a much more difficult situation and yet he said,
"We are pressed hard on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed."
(2 Corinthians 4:8-9)
80. Samuel PG said the following at 1:14 AM on Aug 19:
One more post,
Farmer Tom and Franklin,
I clearly disagreed with your postings, but in reflection a few moments later I realize that my responses probably were not seasoned with grace. At all. I need to learn to check myself before posting, but for now please accept my apology for being unduly rude and unkind. You are both brothers in Christ who care about the Church and I can handle an argument between us but not a real division. God bless
81. Paul said the following at 10:13 AM on Aug 19:
I find it interesting that most of the comments assume that "decreases in marriage and childbearing" are the cause, rather than the consequence of "declines in religious attendance among young adults", or related consequences of other things. I suspect the truth is that it's actually a bit of all three. The two things are related, but it's not a simple cause and effect relationship.
Young adults are facing a lot of pressures now that their parents didn't face. It's far more difficult for many to earn a living wage (especially so for a couple or family on a single income). People are working longer hours and spending more of their money servicing their mortgages and other debts. Looking further back to the circumstances of our grandparents and great grandparents, economic migration means that most people no longer benefit from the traditional support offered by an extended family, and getting a decent nuclear family together that is stable and has the resources and space to raise children is an uphill struggle.
So what does the church need to do? Yes, of course it needs to encourage marriage and family life, in fact it needs to go further and look seriously at the benefits of the extended family over the modern nuclear family model. At the same time, churches need to recognize that economic circumstances are such that the average person will be single for longer, and need more support in preparing to start a marriage and a family, but on the other hand, during that time they may have time and resources to devote to their church, that a married couple doesn't have.
One thing is for sure - we can't just hold our hands up and say the pews are empty because everyone is single. We have to ask why the single people are not in church, draw them in, and work from there.
82. Andrew (tlw) said the following at 8:55 PM on Aug 19:
Carrie,
I’m fascinated that many of the responses to Franklin were from women. Did men read the comment and silently agree, without questioning the accusations? There ARE numerous evangelical churches that endorse contemporary cultural practices that have alienated men, who progressively withdraw or become passive attenders. Programs are commonly used in a mistaken attempt to re-engage them, but these typically have limited appeal.
Your question was about “approaching the idea of marriage” in these churches. In answer, I think that ALL the men of a church can play a role in affirming marriage.
Instead of telling people they’d never get married again, married men can affirm their wives and encourage single men to pursue matrimony seriously, not just dating for years on end … marriage is about providing leadership for the family, which means respecting its members.
This means avoiding telling the degrading stories about what their spouses did last week, how they hog the bathroom and forgot to buy grits again.
Married women can respect their spouses by being selective about how they describe their homelife, and avoiding the coffee’n’bitch sessions about how hubby always falls asleep in front of the TV on Friday night football and keeps leaving the lid up or the cap off the toothpaste.
There’s a time and place to address these issues.
Bitterness can be difficult to overcome. Perhaps other women might want to comment on that? My own reactions to in-voluntarily delayed marriage included jealousy, frustration and displacement … but not necessarily bitterness.
83. Carrie said the following at 9:16 AM on Aug 20:
Farmer Tom said:
"This is where having an agent is important."
What happens if there is nobody that is interested in being an agent? What happens if EVERYONE you are around thinks that the man should just "buck up and be a man" and express interest without being pushed?
Not that I necessarily struggle with these, but I'm just asking on behalf of women who may be struggling.
84. k. said the following at 10:59 AM on Aug 20:
Carrie -- Why not walk over to him and start a conversation? All this agent stuff is silly. Let him know you're interested, and he can go from there. That's not pushing, that's just common sense.
85. farmer Tom said the following at 11:54 AM on Aug 20:
K. said,
Oh, heaven help us, Farmer Tom's discovered the bold tag.
I, (think) (maybe I'm wrong) know all kind of things, that doesn't mean I include all of it in every post.
Want to know the daily feed consumption for a 1200 lb steer???
86. Carrie said the following at 3:11 PM on Aug 20:
K. ,
It is my experience that guys high tail it out of the friendship when I let him know I'm interested. Maybe I haven't mastered the art of subtlety. I have tried several times in the last several years to be as unobtrusive as possible in letting my interest be known. It results in the guy high-tailing it out of the friendship and running for cover.
87. BDB said the following at 3:46 PM on Aug 20:
k. wrote:
>>All this agent stuff is silly. <<
Hmmm...there is one thing it is good for. Ascertaining whether or not someone is attached without either party embarassing themselves. It's also a good way to transfer basic knowledge about someone - age, whether they have kids, education, what they do - the basics you can use to start a conversation with, especially if you have something in common.
Keep in mind that there is an entire spectrum of "showing interest." As has been discussed before, non-Christian men AND women tend to be a lot more overt about showing interest for some reason. Certain women who clearly believe themselves to be "attached" nevertheless are sometimes VERY friendly for some reason. In comparison, a woman who may seem unattached, but who is reserved, or reacts cooly to a conversation will definitely appear to be uninterested in comparison.
Andrew (tlw) wrote:
>>Did men read the comment and silently agree, without questioning the accusations?<<
No, not agreement - he just seems young.
The laws seem to be stacked against men in many ways - this is true. When it comes to morality, I find it interesting that 90% of the population (or something like that) believes that deadbeat dads should be forced to financially support their children. The numbers on marriage commitment don't seem to be that high any more. From what I've read, the laws making divorce hard were there because it was assumed that marriage included children, so support of children was included with marriage.
Once marriage becomes about fulfilling the two individuals, well, I'm not surprised that we evolved into a set of laws where quickie divorce was OK if one spouse stopped feeling fulfilled but child support demands remained ironclad.
Incidentally, it IS Biblical for men to provide for their families:
"But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. (I Timothy 5:8)
88. Joy W. said the following at 4:32 PM on Aug 20:
I just want to thank Samuel for pointing out that the popularity of poor-quality literature (I hesitate to use the word) within the church has no connection to the femininization of the church. As a woman who reads mostly high-quality fiction and non-fiction, farmer Tom's implication rubbed me the wrong way.
89. Katie said the following at 4:48 PM on Aug 20:
Joy W.,
I can see what farmerTom is talking about. Actually, my brother and I were having this discussion last week. It just seems like alot of the highly-popularized books about "theology" are nothing of the sort. If you want THEOLOGY, then please, go to Spurgeon, Chesterton, Moody, Edwards and the like. While I have no opinion regarding the relationship of recent books with the feminization of the church, I can say that it seems that Christian literature has watered itself down to the average American Christian's level instead of challenging us in both content and style.
90. k. said the following at 5:06 PM on Aug 20:
Carrie -- Sigh, sometimes online conversations are a pain. I wish we could catch up for coffee in person to discuss this!
Anyway...a thought. Do you have some close friends you can use for feedback/advice/opinions? If literally every guy is "fleeing" the friendship, perhaps your strategy could use some work. :) Guys aren't this strange species, although sometimes it feels like they are. I don't think you need to "master the art of subtlety," as much as practice your relationship skills in general (we all have to!). I don't know how old you are, or other details about you, so friends/family would be able to provide more targeted feedback. Fwiw, I think Farmer T's suggestion that you find a godly older woman to play matchmaker would ALSO make guys want to flee for the hills, but who knows?? Different things work for different people. I would really encourage you to talk to someone close to you...I wish I could offer more concrete advice!
91. Samuel PG said the following at 5:58 PM on Aug 20:
Katie,
I can't claim to have read the vast majority of contemporary Christian literature, but I do find it hard to believe that it is all watered down. I know for a fact that every month there are more books of theological substance being published, although admittedly most of them are at an academic and scholarly level. I, too, appreciate a book with a somewhat challenging and therefore stimulating writing-level, but is there anything wrong with lowering the read-level of a book by writing it conversationally if it still conveys the same truth? It seems to me that for those Christians who are not exceptionally good at reading or have little time to invest in reading, an easy-read with good solid meat-and-potato teaching is not something to be despised.
92. Emily Hughes said the following at 11:57 PM on Aug 20:
I actually have never experienced the church really taking an interest in me getting married, if anything I don't think they really care one way or the other. I kind of find it a little disturbing. My home church caters mostly to families, and my college group shys aways from ever really broaching the subject. So, I feel sometimes that I'm out there on my own.
I read books to see what I need to do, how I should actively be looking, praying about whether or not a guy I have interest in could be suitable for me, putting myself out there. sending signals....even signing up for a christian service online, but all I get is flirting, being asked for my number and then..........................nothing.
More frustrating is my mother's attitude. At the excitement of recently talking more with a nice young man, who subsequently asked for my number, my mother replied to my excitement, "Gosh, you're only 26. People are getting married much later these days. You're brother's and sister are much older, and they're still single... There's no reason you should be interested in looking for someone at your age. Why are you so desperate and lonely?" The words from my own mother broke my heart. If she had no interest in me desiring a relationship, or gawk...marriage, does anyone else? Words like my mother's and the indifference of some churches can make a single person desiring marriage feel guilty for wanting a partner.
It's as if they're insinuating that there's something wrong with being lonely for companionship sometimes, as if I am desperate (which I am clearly not).
I love my pet, but coming home to a pet bird can only go so far in fulfilling a longing for a new adventure or companionship and intimacy.
Does anyone else ever feel guilty for desiring and hoping for a lifemate/spouse?
93. BDB said the following at 11:28 AM on Aug 21:
Emily
>>There's no reason you should be interested in looking for someone at your age. Why are you so desperate and lonely?" The words from my own mother broke my heart.<<
If I've learned anything reading this blog, it's how people have been discouraged from pursuing marriage. Your mother is making a serious mistake. I'm now starting to wonder if what you've described is precisely why Christian men and women tend to avoid showing interest - non-Christians aren't assuming marriage.
So, when someone does say this out loud, I now try to deliberately encourage them that it's a worthy goal.
94. Carrie said the following at 12:15 PM on Aug 21:
K. said "If literally every guy is "fleeing" the friendship, perhaps your strategy could use some work."
Ha! No kidding! I wouldn't say every guy is "fleeing" . . . that was more or less a reaction to the previous days events. However, most guys will clam up and seek shelter. There are 5 Christian guys that I have expressed interest over the last 8 years (2 of them within the last month or so). The first guy was a special case in and of himself . . . nobody ever understood him. Guy #2, not the commitment type and scared to death of marriage (a few months after I expressed interest, he ended up dating another girl off and on for 5 years before breaking things off because he couldn't commit). Guy #3 had a girlfriend that he never told me about until I expressed interest. Guy #4 . . . we are friends and that's it on his end. Its Guy #5, the most recent, that I was reacting too apparently.
95. Emily said the following at 12:26 PM on Aug 21:
BDB,
The sad thing is is that my mother is a Christian, and she still said something like that. I agree with this:
"I'm now starting to wonder if what you've described is precisely why Christian men and women tend to avoid showing interest - non-Christians aren't assuming marriage"
But, sometime Christian's can be just as cynical as well.
96. Andrew (tlw) said the following at 11:54 PM on Aug 22:
Emily/Carrie,
I don't know what to say to either of you. Your points are all the more painful to contemplate because I've seen examples of them myself.
Emily, it is VERY difficult when parents fail to acknowledge very rreal desires of the heart. As much as we are called to honour them, parents can be wrong.
Adults can and do project their fears onto their children as a result of their ownexperience, and in doing so, simply create new problems to deal with.
I wish you wisdom in dealing with this. For the record, most of the contributors here would probably agree that 26 is a perfectly reasonable age to be serious about our relationships and our desires for a companion.
Carrie, as with Emily's situation, I can probably relate because I have experienced it personally. Again, it is difficult o know what to say in a blog post.
One of my wife's friends was in your situation until her early thirties. All she ever wanted to be was a wife and mother. In our contemporary era where we unconsciously absorb the values of our culture, I know that many guys (probably myself included) were turned away by the hint of wanting more than just a casual date.
It is not desperation that we sense, but a desire that these women are seeking more than maybe we are ready to be. From being a poverty stricken single to maybe being a married guy with a pregnant wife in less than a year is entirely possible, and I feel that we as individuals and we as christians are not preparing and being prepared for these responsibilities.
In your situation, I have found that counsel from older people who genuinely understand your needs may be helpful, not people who, like in Emily's case, decry your needs and invalidate your heart's desire.
97. Jim Smith said the following at 8:12 AM on Feb 4:
Another aspect which people must not over look is that in churches there are individuals who marriage shouldnt be discussed with, e.g people with mental illnesses, e.g autism and personality disorders marriage isnt an option for us.