Mixed Matches
by Denise Morris on 07/26/2007 at 4:58 PM
We've had a few people talking about interracial dating in the TrueU Coffee Shop lately. The topic has come up before, and I'm always interested in hearing people's opinions. It's a subject that's very close to my heart, since I am bi-racial (my mom is white and my dad is black).
I've heard all of the questions that come along with the discussion: Is it wrong to date someone with a different skin color? Is it more difficult? Do children of interracial parents face discrimination or identity problems?
In my experience, the answer to all of these questions is "no" although I'm sure some would disagree with me. I've personally never experienced any discrimination based on my bi-racial status, and I feel fully confident in who I am (and, by the way, who I am really has nothing to do with being black or white -- it has to do with being awesome ;-).
I wrote a three-part series on this topic, addressing as many issues as I could think of when it came to this subject. Overall, I find absolutely no biblical basis for not dating interracially; I believe God has called us to marry believers -- red, yellow, black or white.
However, some people still do seem to be quite concerned with the possibility that there could be difficulties or discrimination in an interracial relationship. Maybe that's true. But, so what? As I talk about in my article, sometimes we're more effective when we understand the difficulties of life:
When my mom and dad got married, my mom's white parents received a few whispered questions from some of their friends. "Hmm, are they sure that's a good idea?" they would gently ask. "Won't it be tough for them if they have mixed-race babies?" My grandma answered them matter-of-factly: "Well, his kids will be black and face possible difficulties in society no matter whom he marries. What makes our family so special that we should be exempt from prejudices?"
Grandma was right. People in this world face racism, sexism and every other kind of "ism" all of the time. So many of us are simply clueless to these struggles. Who's to say you shouldn't be able to relate to the hurts of others? It may make you a more effective witness. If an interracial relationship does result in a few trials, all it means is that this old world is still sinful. But here's the good news: God is still in control.
I get asked about this topic a lot, and I have nothing but good things to say about interracial dating and marriage. But what do you think? Would you consider dating someone with more or less melanin than you?
1. Ted Slater said the following at 4:38 PM on Jul 26:
Two things:
1) I don't like the term "interracial." It's misleading. Humans are part of the same "race." Perhaps "inter-ethnic" or "inter-cultural" would better frame the discussion.
2) Enuma Okoro also explored this in her article, "Mixed Blessings." The title should tell you what she (and Boundless) thinks of inter-ethnic relationships.
2. Denise Morris said the following at 4:49 PM on Jul 26:
I agree that we're all part of the same race so the term "interracial" is not correct. I don't know about the term "inter-cultural" either though. I think a black person and a white person from the suburbs will be more culturally similar than two white people who grew up in completely different areas.
3. Oxanna said the following at 4:49 PM on Jul 26:
As Ted pointed out, there's no such thing as "race", but there should be *zero* problem with "interracial" marriages. Cultural issues are different, and can come up within a marriage of two people of the same "race", but who are from different countries or cultural backgrounds.
4. Ted Slater said the following at 5:02 PM on Jul 26:
Denise and Oxanna -- I agree completely. I think "inter-ethnic" might be the best term. But I'm not the one to decide, I guess. :-)
5. Meredith said the following at 6:00 PM on Jul 26:
Although the author stated in her article that her parents' courtship was not made more difficult because they are of different ethnic backgrounds, the whispered questions posed by her grandparents' friends would seem to indicate otherwise. Even if her parents did experience little to no difficulty, I'd say they are the exception rather than the rule. As someone who knows several inter-ethnic and inter-cultural couples, I have been told that there were and are difficulties in these relationships that arise from this aspect of their relationship. Not to say that they regret their choice or that a mono-ethnic relationship is easy; it's just that different challenges tend to exist for those who date and marry someone of a different color or nationality.
Also, as a middle-school teacher, I have seen several bi-racial children struggle with issues of identity and endure abuse from classmates of both races for not being "white enough" or "black enough". Again, I'm glad that the author did not have to endure this torment, but it certainly does exist.
While I believe that God is pro-marriage - and that He sees no difference between those who marry within or outside of their given ethnic group - the world at large (and unfortunately some of the Christian community as well) does see a difference. I think it is wise to go into such a relationship knowing that these difficulties may exist so as to be prepared to meet them with grace.
6. BDB said the following at 7:23 PM on Jul 26:
Sure. I have an entire Latino wing of my family. They're a lot of fun!
7. H.B. said the following at 7:27 PM on Jul 26:
I grew up honestly not noticing someone in my everyday life was of *another race* except when it was pointed out by another i.e. "That boy is black! That girl's hispanic!"
I considered racism and prejudice to have had way too much of people's time and while I've found it unavoidable, I've also found it an opportunity to tell about God.
My background: With my sister being Mexican-Central American Indian-Swedish (looks almost black but it's the Mex-Am.Indian, but who knows she could still have a blue-eyed blonde)
my mother being Scotch-Irish-Cherokee (with light brown hair and fair skin)
my father being German-mix (looks red to me)
and I a very proud Russian-Jew-mix (but unfortunately as my Pakistani Dr. said, I am one of the fairer of my descent)...
my best friend (being african-american-indian) and I had lengthy discussions on "mixed families".
Her mother was/is a staunch believer that it's a sin to intermarry *racially* and I care-freely thought life could be just like my childhood - People ask stupid questions, you answer them with grace and point them to God.
I've had people swear my sister and I weren't of the same family (embarrassment to them).
I've had people ask if my sister got enough of her own ethnic activities so she'd know who she was (As if she didn't know - she is a child of God born of His own design as we all are, and able to celebrate with a variety of cultures the things that are pure in each).
As of now I am facing a hardship unknown to me before. I grew up in a state where there wasn't so much prejudice as there is in the true south.
Now that I've moved there, I'm going to a Christian college which obtained a bad reputation of its "no-intermarrying" stance and old-days treatment of those who are of another ethnicity than "white", but doesn't have the same stance or treatment as then, anymore. Has international students and is proud of it now.
People like the cashiers who ask me where I'm going to college when my mother proudly brings it up...assume I'm prejudice against them when I say that name. I hate to see Christians portrayed that way since they are to reflect Christ.
8. KendraW said the following at 7:36 PM on Jul 26:
I have friends who just got married this past summer and it would be considered a inter-ethnic marriage. Never have two people been more perfect for each other than these two friends of mine. Skin color doesn't matter to them nor to most of the people I know.
I've often said that my only requirements for dating a guy would be that he was Christian and male. Skin color is an accident of birth and is not even a consideration for me. :D
9. k. said the following at 7:48 PM on Jul 26:
I have to say, melananin was *nowhere* on my list of concerns. We're all humans! :)
10. Jane said the following at 7:56 PM on Jul 26:
as a biracial individual (white mother, black father), i agree completely. the recent controversy regarding the boise state football player (who is black) having to hire security for his wedding to a white woman disgusts me.
11. mindlab said the following at 7:58 PM on Jul 26:
The most compelling argument I've heard against 'interracial/interethnic' marriages is the issues of differing culture, but I think this objection misplaces the problem. I have friends from all over the world, some of whom have cultural expectations quite similar to mine. I also have WASP (white anglo-saxon, protestant) friends who are so different that even friendship is a challenge.
Excepting blatant racism (especially in the community or parents) and culture, I see no special challenges to 'interracial/interethnic' marriages. I'll bet that most of the opposition to 'interracial/interethnic' relationships (think Bob Jones University!) stems from the misconception that racial differences necessitate/cause cultural differences.
12. John said the following at 8:05 PM on Jul 26:
In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, white nor black nor brown nor red nor yellow. There are only believers and unbelievers. Be ye not unequally yoked with unbelievers. 2 Cor. 6:14.
That being said, we all have our personal preferences. Some of us prefer blondes, brunettes or redheads.
13. Ame said the following at 8:13 PM on Jul 26:
I grew in up Florida where racism was distinct with a dad who was extremely prejudice, just like his parents. Odd, they opposed people of different skin tones but accepted abuse of all kinds as both my grandfather and father were (and my dad still is) abusive men.
My mom always prided herself in not being prejudice. Then, a few months after we moved into this house, we stopped by our neighbors for a visit one evening. They are from Lebanon. Later, I discovered my mother's extreme prejudism. I was shocked at how extreme her prejudism was.
My ex-in-laws are retired, career missionaries to a Latin country, yet they some of the most prejudice people I know, even toward latin people. Astounds me.
I find the discussion of color of skin vs. cultural differences interesting. I grew up in Florida. My ex husband grew up in a Latin country. Yep, we had quite a few cultural difference to work through, even though we have the same color of skin.
I have a difficult time understanding how one creation of God is better or worse than another simply because of the way God created them. That befuddles me. I think that sometimes the confusion as to whether or not I value one over another has come through not valuing what another stands for or believes in or lives for or the choices they make ... then if that person is of a different color, I find myself "checking" to make sure it's not a racial thing.
Interesting ... one day my girls and I were talking, and the words, "black person" came up. And my Youngest, who is 7, asked what a "black person" was! I was delighted! She sees people as people!!!
My girls and I shop at a local thrift store a lot and know most of the employees. We have come to know a man named Tim who is a black man. I believe Mr. Tim is a believer from our brief conversations. He has been more kind to my girls than any other man we know inside or outside of the church. He talks to them and affirms them, and my girls run up to him for hugs. He is transplanted here from Katrina, and that has opened for my girls and me a whole different window of discussion of life on many levels. What a gift this man is in our lives, to my girls. I have been waiting for God to provide men who will be kind to my girls :)
May we see people as people created in the image of God. Unfortunately, I grew up in and have been surrounded with much racism. Thankfully, my girls are growing up much differently. May all three of us marry men of God. I was in one of my closest friend's home one evening when the subject of me dating and getting married again came up. They are from Puerto Rico, and he said, "You should marry a Latino!" I told him I wanted to marry a man who has a very deep and intimate relationship God :)
14. brx said the following at 8:41 PM on Jul 26:
Though I don't experience it frequently, it saddens me to know from my friends that there are still strong attitudes of racial prejudice in some parts of the US and on smaller scales in some counties. The elementary schools I went to were mostly full of caucasian, asian, and latino students and I never noticed any racial tensions. Then I went to a catholic-salesian, all guys HS with mostly latino students and very few caucasians... I didn't feel like I fit in with the subculture very well and I did notice what one might term 'self-segregation'.
While in jr college, I did date a mexican girl whom I'd known for a while through a church summer camp ministry (she was brilliant and beautiful). Unfortunately, a short time after meeting her parents, she confided that it just wasn't going to work because her father really didn't like the idea of her dating a "white guy". Interestingly, several years later she did marry a caucasion similar to my looks and build but who in her words, had the in with her father because he was one of her brother's best friends. I think if the family support is not there for a mixed couple, it will require a lot more strength, patience, and perseverance.
My grandmother made a surprisingly prejudiced remark to me (I won't repeat it) indicating that I shouldn't be dating a cambodian girlfriend whom I'd brought to visit her while in college. Thinking about it later, I realized she didn't mean it personally; that's just what she'd be taught all her life and even in her local church. I quickly forgave her comment. Later, the relationship ended after a few months due to my own emotional immaturity.
I think racial tension can be taught, handed down, but that it can also develop out of ignorance and fear-of-man. I really enjoyed the true story of teacher Erin Gruwell in the movie "Freedom Writers". It also illustrates the truth in "those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it."
God speed understanding.
15. xeres said the following at 8:56 PM on Jul 26:
It is sad that racism still exist despite of how "enlightened" we are. I agree with Ted that Inter-enthic is more appropriate in comparsion to interracial. Nationality-wise, I'm filipino (I'm a naturalized American citizen). However, most of filipinos are descended from Chinese, Indonesian and Spanard.
16. Anu (formerly known as Tomi) said the following at 9:26 PM on Jul 26:
Great post! In my opinion the word "interracial" is better than "inter-ethnic" because ethnicity and race and completely different things that sometimes overlap. While race is a social construct, it it is still very "real" in implication. "Race" generally refers to color and is more broad, while ethnicity reflects the persons background and heritage. People of the same ethnicity generally share the same race, language, heritage, and culture. For example, my best friend and I are both from Nigeria and are both Black, but we are from two different ethnic groups (Yoruba and Igbo) with different languages, food, clothing, culture, dominant religion, and traditions. Our friendship is not interracial but it is cross-cultural, at least as far as our families are concerned.
That said, the only reason one would have any objections to interracial relationships is if one (falsely) believes that there are innate differences between, and attributes to be ascribed to, people of different races.
17. Christine said the following at 9:50 PM on Jul 26:
I was blessed to grow up in a very multi-ethnic family. My parents are both caucasian, but one of my aunts is from Thailand and another is Mexican/American Indian. One of my cousins has a daughter who is half African American. I'm so thankful for this because I grew up thinking that inter-ethnic families were the norm.
Though I'm not going to marry a man based only on his ethnicity, I joke that I need to marry a Middle Eastern man since we don't have anyone from that part of the world just yet!
18. denise said the following at 9:55 PM on Jul 26:
as a person who lives in a ethnically diverse area (southern california) and has always cross-culturally dated i've realized that color has nothing to do with character. after one gets over initial 'attraction', it is character that makes someone desirable. cultural identity is such a personal issue i've seen within my own family. I "feel" mexican and my sister doesn't feel anything in particular, bordering on embarassment. I always am amused by the variety of backgrounds people think i have... or their perceptions ("your not really mexican, like 'that'{insert undesirable character here}"), but hey its an opportunity to educate and enlighten a mind. i think ones background and cultural history are so interesting and should be appreciated/remembered for future generations. and after that rambling... what does skin color have to do with a man who loves his wife as Christ loved the church~!? that is the man i want polka dots and all~
19. Ellie said the following at 9:58 PM on Jul 26:
My own blonde, blue-eyed self pretty much hides the Cherokee in me, inherited from a great-grandmother, so I can't comment in that regard. But my littlest sister is tri-ethnic(?) - Caucasian mother, half African/half Korean father. It has been hard for her on occasion. I think it's rather cruel to approach a five year old and go "that's your mom? no way!" and start pestering her about what's none of their business. Kids at one school taunted her endlessly (she was pulled out). She used to be reduced to tears, thinking she was ugly and that she didn't fit in (she was heartbroken when she learned that you don't "lighten up" when you get older - she would never have the fairer skin of most her family). She also received constant reassurances at home about her beauty, her worth, and that it was okay to be different. And not all kids and teachers were mean (especially at a different school - almost no one teased her, except a few well-intentioned but, nevertheless, rude folks who questioned her).
Do I think inter-whatever (ethnic, cultural, racial, pick your term) relationships are wrong? By no means! People are people are people. "....Christ is in all."
I do think that there most likely will be challenges for those that do go that route. Pray to God for wisdom in navigating them in a Christ-like fashion and for strength to deal with any hardship. And I'm thankful for those like Denise and her family, who didn't have to go through such, save those whisperings. I wish my sister (now 14) didn't have to.
But if we run the other direction out of fear, doesn't that allow the prejudices out there to win?
20. V said the following at 10:00 PM on Jul 26:
At the risk of getting slammed with harsh criticisms, I would like to bring up a couple of topics in regards to marrying from a different culture or skin color. I first want to say that I have many friends from many ethnic groups and all different colors of skin. I live in the virtual melting pot of Central Florida, so it is rather difficult to not meet and become friends with all different races, colors, and countries of birth.
The points I would like to bring up have to do with what the Bible says about inter-marrying; namely, that God was against it, but only because the non-believing spouses would turn the believers to worship other gods. Even in the time of Jesus, the Samaritans (half-Jew and half-Gentile) were very much discriminated against. Remember the Samaritan woman at the well who couldn't believe that Jesus, a Jew, was actually even speaking to her?
As long as both parties are true Biblical Christians, there should be no problems other than social ones. I personally, am almost exclusively attracted to those "WASP" men someone else was commenting on.
Although I have some very good male friends who are of Latino, Jamaican, or Middle-Eastern descent...I am not romantically attracted to them, nor do I really have enough in common with them outside of church to spend an over-abundance of time with them. Also, my parents (especially my dad) are very much against the idea of inter-marrying and I feel as if I would be disrespecting them if I were to deliberately look to pursue a relationship with a different ethnic group.
Do I think it is a sin? No. As long as both parties are Christians, it is not a sin. For me, it just might be, because I would not be honoring my parents.
21. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:15 PM on Jul 26:
Well despite the term "race" having inaccuracies (we all being of the "human race") it is the preferred term. I agree with Anu that "ethnicity" has more to do with cultural background. For example, in the former Yugoslavia there was "ethnic cleansing" (Serbs vs. Croats) but both were white. Actually, according to a TrueU posting (did anyone actually read the thread) the term "breed" would be more accurate. But people don't like that term simply because it makes us sound like animals (which interestingly we are technically).
According to athropology, there are only 3 "races": Negroid (black), Caucasoid (white) and Mongloid (yellow). Some argue there is Amerindian too (red). These are the "primary colors" of race. Interesting coincidence that when God saved Noah and his family from the flood, he had 3 sons. 3 sons, 3 colors. Hmm.
Ok, so we got the science all out of the way. Now for the topic at hand.
Everyone seems to agree (at least publically) that there is nothing wrong with dating/marrying someone of a different race. There are very few Christians who would say otherwise. Mainly because there really is no leg to stand on Biblically. All the prohibitions on marrying "outside" the race had more to do with the negative influences of pagan culture, not with the race itself. And the Tower of Babel argument is just plain silly. But honestly, I don't see that at the real issue.
Maybe I'm wrong, but the real issue seems more to be, "Why DON'T we date/marry more interracially even if we know it's right"?
For example (fasten your seatbelts) here are some observations I've noticed (I know there are statistics out there which confirm this, but don't have them handy now):
- A lot of people SAY that they would be open to dating people of other races, but often people don't do so. In online dating, the problem is worse.
- For the white/black issue, it is significantly more often that a black man will marry/date a white woman than the other way around (I only know of one couple where the man is White and the woman Black). For whatever reason, White women are preferred by both White and Black more than Black Women
- The term "non-white" is really misleading. For example there are Latinos/Asians who are fairer skinned than some Caucasians yet are "non-white". And there are people from India who are darker than Blacks yet are not considered "Black".
So perhaps the real question is, "Is it OK to have racial preferences with dating"? Meaning that one can mentally exclude dating/marrying certain races simply because one does not find them attractive? Is that really "racist" behavior?
I would say 'No'. Partly because the same argument one would use for race one could use for a myriad of other things beyond a person's control. For example, if I happen to be attracted to taller women and would only date one who was as tall as I was or taller, am I now a "height-ist"? Or if I am only attracted to those who have longer legs, am I a "leg-ist"? So if people generally prefer a particular race or exclude one are they necessarily "racist"?
My point is that I agree that although we should examine our priorities to be sure we aren't excluding some godly men/women out there, but there is nothing wrong with having preferences in whom we date/marry. This of course may mean that we have to face the harsh reality that our particular race may not be a "preferred" one, but I do believe that God can overcome such obstacles if we aren't too picky ourselves.
Finally, H.B. didn't say the school but most know (or maybe not) it's Bob Jones University. I'm glad they have reversed their stance on interracial dating, but it's long overdue. And it's sad too that it took years of bad press to pressure them into doing so. I firmly believe that if not for that, it would still have that policy to this very day.
22. Naomi said the following at 12:06 AM on Jul 27:
God is not prejudiced against any person, whatever skin color or background that person. This, we all know.
However, dating someone from a different cultural background / country will have challenges. There will be a lot of adjustments to each others' differences. (i.e. the type of food one eats even matters.) But that has to deal with those two people involved. The only thing that should matter to God is if those two have their relationship centered on Him.
However, two people who were raised in the same country usually are immersed in the same culture. A white American and a black American are still both Americans. What kind of adjustment to each other do they really need?
23. Ame said the following at 1:10 AM on Jul 27:
Reading the comments made me smile over my own girls. My ex and I are similar in appearance, I think. But our girls, both biological to both my ex and myself, are very different in appearance.
My Oldest does look a lot like her dad, but people who don't know him think she might look more like me.My oldest has long, straight brown hair with blonde highlights.
My Youngest looks like my paternal grandmother and my ex-brother-in-law.
I have very naturally curly, light brown hair with very light red highlights.
I am honestly amazed at how many people look at the three of us and wonder if we *really* all go together ... do they have the same father ... did I adopt either one or both ... am/was I permiscuous and not know the fathers? Those who have asked have been surprised that yes, we are all three biologically related and they both have the same biological father and mother.
Also, my sister's daughter's biological father (who has not been around for many years) was a mix - probably Italian and Native American. She is a beautiful, dark-skinned, dark-haired, dark-eyed girl. We used to keep her many years ago for my sister who was then a single mom. When my niece and I were out together people would often say, "She *must* look like her father," thinking I was her mother, and she obviously doesn't have my very fair skin.
It's like there is a need to label and place people, to define us, to define others. I don't think that's necessarily bad. I find knowing people's family blends something interesting rather than discriminating. It's who we are.
Also, I think the attraction issue is real. We each have our preferences for appearance - neither good nor bad in itself. As long as our attraction preferences don't dictate our genuine love for those whom God created and loves.
24. Joseph said the following at 1:15 AM on Jul 27:
Pardon me, your epidermis is showing, sir
I couldnt help but note your shade of melanin
I tip my hat to the colorful arrangement
Cause I see the beauty in the tones of our skin
Weve gotta come together
And thank the maker of us all
Were colored people, and we live in a tainted place
Were colored people, and they call us the human race
Weve got a history so full of mistakes
And we are colored people who depend on a holy grace
A piece of canvas is only the beginning for
It takes on character with every loving stroke
This thing of beauty is the passion of an artists heart
By gods design, we are a skin kaleidoscope
Weve gotta come together,
Arent we all human after all?
- DC Talk, Colored People
I think we should seriously apply interethnic marriages as the term, and stop with the divisive use of race.
Being mixed between my white dad and asian mom, however growing up in the suburbs with little influence from my culture (Joy Luck Club kind of idea), I identify much closer to other suburbians than any ethnicity.
25. Robert J Espe said the following at 9:01 AM on Jul 27:
Well, I'm a mostly Norwegian-Irish cross, and I married a Swede! :-)
I think the reason we have trouble with the inter-racial vs inter-ethnic label is that as Christians, we know race shouldn't matter, but I've met Christians who set poor examples by making race, not culture the issue. After all, a person with black skin raised in a Norwegian community is culturally Norwegian. There is not a culture barrier in that community, but some people would still make a big deal about skin color. That has to be overcome.
As for Mike's observations, I think that is caused by culture. I know lots of people with dark skin who were raised in the same area as me. But I only know one who shares my culture. As two home schooled farm boys, we have a lot in common and are good friends even though our skin is different.
But there is a uniquely American culture of "blackness" that serves as an artificial barrier between people. A combination of factors tends to push many black children into a neo-culture that has no roots in country or heritage, but just an opposition to "whites" (an odd label in itself). That tends to divide people who would otherwise have everything in common.
As my opening paragraph illustrates, the problem won't go away until (1) we quit making a big deal about it and (2) our cultures sufficiently merge so as to not be divided (as have American Norwegians, Gaels, and Swedes)
26. Carrie Lea said the following at 9:05 AM on Jul 27:
Would I date interracially? I think it's safe to say that I won't date anyone but my husband, now that I'm married. :) But yes, I would have, and in fact I did.
I think this topic could be taken even further: I have actually met one guy (white) who will not even date someone of the SAME race who has previously been in an interracial relationship. I have also met a white guy who prefers black women. Both of these guys are Southerners.
What H.B. said about the "true south" got me thinking. Any comment painting Southerners as racist tends to make me bristle, since I was born and raised in the South. The level of validity of that comment aside, however, I want to point out that there can be something akin to "racism" between Northerners and Southerners. I have experienced Northern prejudice against Southerners first-hand on occasion, as have other members of my family. In return, I didn't particularly care to date someone who assumed I was racist and unintelligent just because I'm a Southerner.
Actually, I'm reminded of an episode of "The Golden Girls" where Blanche tells a dramatic story of how she was seeing a young man in high school who didn't fit in with her family and friends. She finally got tired of hiding their relationship, so she proudly showed up at the prom on his arm, where everyone gasped and stared in disbelief. Dorothy nods knowingly and comments, "He was black." Blanche responds, "No! He was a Yankee!" :D
27. Bethany M said the following at 9:27 AM on Jul 27:
Naomi said:
>>"...two people who were raised in the same country usually are immersed in the same culture. A white American and a black American are still both Americans. What kind of adjustment to each other do they really need?"
I must respectfully but strongly disagree. While people exist on a huge spectrum no matter what race they are, there exists a huge cultural gap between most whites and most blacks. Dress, speech, norms, names, hangouts, homes, hobbies, sports, values, priorities, families, you name it: there are vast gaps between the two races difficult to bridge. And I want to make a point that people usually make a quick jump from "different" to "inferior" when talking about culture. I'm saying there are differences, not that one is better than the other.
Actually, I should redefine the source of the differences: it's more of a suburban vs. urban gap. White middle-class suburbanites and black middle-class suburbanites have much more in common than inner city vs. suburbanite of the same race. It is more the culture of your surroundings than your skin color.
I have existed in the minority in most settings for the last 4 years, and it is one of the best experiences a white person can have. I came from a very white small town, so it took me a long time to understand the culture and adjust. But I understand now why there is such a barrier between the races. There are so many aspects of the other race that people just cannot "get" because it exists out of their comprehension.
To conclude, I agree that inter-ethnic dating and marriage is perfectly fine, but will often present added challenges. This has everything to do with cultural differences rather than skin color. You could find someone of your same race who is far more different than someone of a different race who grew up in the same region, culture, and socioeconomic circumstances as you.
28. dana111 said the following at 9:54 AM on Jul 27:
I am glad that this type of discussion is occuring on a pro-marriage website. I am a black female who has dated white men, and I am not ashamed to say so. But, I find it slightly hypocritical to desire to be blessed with a Godly marriage while telling God who you will or will not marry based on melanin alone. Not to make assumptions, but I am guessing for people like V, if one happens to fall in love with a Christian man with a little more melanin one can always refuse to accept what could be a blessing and hide one's racial prejudice and the racist tendecies of one's parents under the guise of being "honorable"... Maybe for some people, they should really stay with their own "kind."
29. nikki said the following at 10:02 AM on Jul 27:
I have no moral problem with interracial dating/marriage. My church has an unusually high proportion of interracial couples and it is good for us overall, in a small way. I say "small way" because I believe the main issue (other than teasing from children) to be cultural, not racial. Most of the "blacks" or "indians" (as in, from India)in our congregation are very assimilated into NorthAmerican/western culture.
I think the potential "rub" with interracial dating is the culture-clash issue. And obviously that can happen with whites or blacks or any other same-ethnicity couples who have grown up in different cultures or subcultures. There are potential stress factors that might come with me dating a black man...not because of any melanin content in his skin, but because we might have completely different backgrounds, cultures, family traditions, worshipping styles, even religious values within the sphere of Christianity. These differences are NOT prohibitive factors, though. I might still marry someone of another ethnicity in spite of vast differences in culture. But, those differences can be really hard on a marriage, just as any personal differences tend to be magnified over time. As the article Ted cited said, our highest identities are found in Christ. The culture thing is a serious factor to consider though. It is not meaningless or trivial to weigh those differences in deciding who you will marry.
Cultural differences occurr regardless of skin tone...I am white, there can be nearly insurmountable differences between me and someone from the Deep South, or from Norway, or South Africa.
It's oversimplifying the issue to say "we are all equal in Christ" and to consider ourselves racist if we have anything to say beyond that.
30. Carrie said the following at 10:14 AM on Jul 27:
I am surprised, again and again, and how this can issue can ruffle feathers on both sides of the fence. I am happy to see that most of the commenters are in agreement that "inter-ethnic" dating is acceptable. I think author of this blog post hits the nail on the head:
" . . . some people still do seem to be quite concerned with the possibility that there could be difficulties or discrimination in an interracial relationship. Maybe that's true. But, so what?"
I think too many people have the "Oh, whoa is me" menatality when it comes to their dilemmas/problems/conflicts. Everybody has a need to profess their uniqueness to everyone, including their unique dilemmas/problems/conflicts. What relationship isn't tried with difficulty?
Now, here's a hot topic: What about inter-denominational dating?? Being in the PCA myself, I can't help but wonder what my current circle of friends would think if I started dating *gasp* A CHARISMATIC!
In all honesty, I would have a hard time being committed to someone who thought it was a sin to baptize infants and would think that I need to be re-baptized because I wasn't immersed.
Just wondering what other readers think.
31. xeres said the following at 10:28 AM on Jul 27:
Carrie,
Interdenominational dating is a whole another subject. I think the writer should have a separate post on that :)
32. Jade said the following at 10:48 AM on Jul 27:
Wow, this is really a hot topic based on the number of responses since it was posted! I just wanted to chime in with my $.02 worth. I am a "white" female and have been happily married to a first generation Chinese American man for almost 4 years. We really haven't experienced and racism from either of our families or close friends although strangers sometimes do a double take when the meet us for the first time. I think that the most frustrating thing for me has been how often I've had to refute the common misconception that Asian men are effeminate and somehow less masculine that other men.
It’s kind of funny, I know that when people look at us they see an Asian guy and a white girl, but when we look at each other all we see is a best friend and lover. Sometimes I worry about our kids not “looking” like any of there cousins on either side, but I don’t think it will be that big of a deal once the time comes because we both have other interracial marriages in our families.
33. Natasha said the following at 11:09 AM on Jul 27:
Well, if I were to marry someone with less melanin than me, let's just say:
"Do you know any albinos?"
Seriously, nope it wouldn't be a problem. What could be more difficult is marrying someone from a culture where women are really submissive and expected to fill only traditional roles.
:P
34. Ellie said the following at 11:14 AM on Jul 27:
"It's like there is a need to label and place people, to define us, to define others. I don't think that's necessarily bad. I find knowing people's family blends something interesting rather than discriminating. It's who we are."
It can be, though. Like I said for my little sister, it was rather confusing and hurtful for her, even before she was old enough to be in school, to be incessantly questioned.
I focused on my sister's experiences in my last post, and her difficulties, but to give the other possibilities as well, more in line with Denise....
When I consider it, I realize that a large amount of my college friends come from multi-ethnic families: Caucasian/Asian, African/Caucasian, and so on. Then there is also "cultural," not "melanin" divides; i.e. my best friend, whose father was from America and mother was from France. Both "white," but very different backgrounds.
There was uproar around my grandparents' marriage. Both on the lighter end of the melanin scale, there were, however, other differences: an Irish Catholic and a Swedish Lutheran (you were saying about interdenominational dating?). Neither family had ever "intermarried," and the "Old World" wasn't that far behind for them. There were some sparks among various in-laws; I'll leave it at that. : )
35. Ame said the following at 11:16 AM on Jul 27:
oops - I left out that my Youngest has deep red hair with golden highlights and a soft, natural curl ... hence the great difference in appearance.
Cross-denominational - that IS huge.
On Focus radio yesterday and today, the couple is talking about differences - interesting, their clash didn't occur till after 20 years of marriage, 22 if I remember correctly. I think it will show you how much there is in marriage that is different, and if marrying someone from a different race, you will have to deal with that, but it will be a portion of all the differences you will have to work through in marriage.
Here's the link: http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Focus_on_the_Family/archives.asp?bcd=2007-7-26
Also, one thing they talked about on this program was that their marriage began working when the husband began honoring God in their marriage. I think this is HUGE on many levels. But one is leadership.
Differences in marriage are a given. Differences in marriage, including color or skin, denomination, cultural ... will best be dealt with in a marriage when both partners, especially the husband, honor God in their personal lives and in their marriage.
36. lewsta said the following at 11:56 AM on Jul 27:
That hilarious if stereotypical film My Big Fat Greek Wedding did an excellent job of portraying a situation where two white people were worlds apart culturally.....and yet were able to come together and surmount their differences. Epidermal melanin content mattered little! In EVERY marriage there will be differences..that's why the "two become one"--it is a process, takes time, and continues even through seven decades of marriage. First born or youngest of many; inner city or rural; growing up well heeled or squeezing the nickel so hard the indian's riding the buffalo; apartment block or farm; public, private, home schooled; single parent or close-knit "normal" family; differences in age, denomination, height, level of physical activity...ALL these and more can, and will, be issues to reckon with. So why not throw in the "race" card as well as another potential "issue"......being wise and considering possible difficulties, talking them through and coming into agreement on them is key to a successful marriage. Should melanin content be a "deal breaker"? Not on its own. I'd say whether both have the same heart toward children (he wants many, she none won't work, no matter everything else) matters far more. OPC wants to marry evanjellyfish won't either. Unless agreement is made, well in advance, how those "dividing" issues will be worked out. Funny--sick actually--how we humans tend to divide and judge. So entrenched is this in our nature that simply pointing out some difference (I'm 5'1" he's 6'4"--so what?) is often taken as a value judgement. Comes down to control, I believe. If I can single out some difference between "us" and "them" it is often taken as my saying "us" is better. Perhaps if there weren't so many hungry lawyers eager to persue legal action when someone mentions "natural family" in the presence of homosexuals, or "christian" amongst dockworkers.....but we, as followers of the One in whom we are made one, are called to better things. Perhaps our penchant for camping on differences and preferences has somewhat to do with the raising of the average age for first marriage to 27.....a tragic critique of our culture. Maybe the "Reverend" Moon wasn't quite so, uhm, looney when he simply lined them up against the wall, paired them off, and married them. Holding out for "perfect" often precludes marrying anyone. Skin colour? Meh!!
37. Christine said the following at 12:39 PM on Jul 27:
Jade - I wanted to encourage you to not worry about your kids and their cousins. Out of my seven cousins, I am the only caucasian female. Two of my cousins are part Hispanic, three are red-headed males and then two others are brown haired caucasian males. However, despite the physical differences, we're still cousins. Our relationships differ more based on geography and age than anything else.
38. Marie said the following at 1:03 PM on Jul 27:
Semantics aside, I think that it’s great that we are having a debate about race/ethnicity/culture. “Race issues” are a hard topic to discuss. It’s hard for one to voice his or her opinion about this topic. However, hopefully, the more we discuss these kinds of issues, maybe the better we can understand each other.
I think that when it comes to interracial/intercultural dating, race (skin color, ethnicity, etc.) plays a bigger part of the picture than we may be aware of.
What I mean to say is… I don’t think that preference is strictly arbitrary. The social consequences of dating someone who is blond vs. brunette or tall vs. short is a lot different than a light skinned person dating a dark skinned person.
Many of us on this blog have grown up in various situations. Some of us were exposed to a community that is/was multi-ethnic, while some of us were not. That being said, I think that a lot of our preferences have been shaped by our environments.
I also think that we have a tendency, when it comes to “race issues”, to adopt the view of our family or at the very least, we are affected by the views of our family. This tendency may be part of the reason that there is not a high rate of interracial/intercultural dating.
I think that there are a number of people who are attracted outside of their race, but don’t act on it. I think the reason that they don’t act on their attraction is because they don’t want to go against the wishes of their family, friends, community, etc.
On a slightly different note…
I don’t agree with Mike Theemling’s quote, “For the white/black issue, it is significantly more often that a black man will marry/date a white woman than the other way around (I only know of one couple where the man is White and the woman Black). For whatever reason, White women are preferred by both White and Black more than Black Women.”
It’s possible that I’m misunderstanding the author’s intent. However, I don’t believe that black men date/marry white women more frequently than they date/marry black women. I do agree with the idea that black men are more open to dating/marrying across racial lines than black women are. However, I think that this trend is more than a preference issue. There are some black women who have made a conscious choice, for whatever reason, to not date/marry white men (and vice versa).
All that said, I agree that we have our preferences and our comfort zones, when it comes to dating and marriage. However, I think that our comfort zones are directly and indirectly shaped by our environments/community.
39. Mike Theemling said the following at 2:14 PM on Jul 27:
Marie,
The evidence of Black men and white women compared to White men and Black women are here:
http://www.isteve.com/2003_Census_Interracial_Marriage_Gender_Gap.htm
According to census data, out of all Black-White marriages, about 73% of them had a Black man and a White woman.
You do bring up a good point that part of it could be that Black women are more reluctant to go with White men than White women with Black men.
Still, I still believe there is a preference slant towards White women overall. Look at the anecdotal evidence (Tiger Woods, Kofi Annan, Obama's father, O.J. Simpson, etc). Also look at evidence of online dating sites. An attractive White woman will garner more hits from black men than a Black woman hits from White men.
40. Mike Theemling said the following at 3:13 PM on Jul 27:
Correction. This link here is the proper URL for the link as the original post seemed to have chopped off the last part.
41. xeres said the following at 3:49 PM on Jul 27:
Hahaha, culture is such an interesting thing to look at especially how they can shape a person. Although I lived in South California since I was five (I'm americanized and a first generation immirgrant), I'm have a great familiarity in the Filipino culture (though it is not a entirely nature thing in my life). I don't have an identity crisis or anything like that, I don't have as much common ground with a lot of my filipino peers certain levels but I don't have a lot of common denominators with a lot of Americans on other things either. Among other things, I'm a evangical protestant with a Wesleyan bent. Between my sister and I, I'm the eldest. I wasn't raised in Christian Home nor in the Christian Culture.Plus, I'm a INFJ too :). So many things that shape me but Christ is the source of my identity.
42. Laura said the following at 7:04 PM on Jul 27:
Apparently quite a few people feel very strongly on this subject :-) Personally, I don't see anything wrong with marrying someone from a different heritage. While my family is Caucasian back many generations, my great-uncle married a Chinese lady (he's now 70-something - imagine the opposition flying then!!!), and my cousin has recently married a Chinese lady. My cousin's wife has fit into our family as if she's been with us for years, and no one has really questioned the marriage (they are very happy together). Obviously, there were a few more obstacles to overcome than usual (eg, my cousin learnt to speak Mandarin, learning traditional Chinese customs), but then I look at how many eyes are raised when I tell people I'm getting married next year (I'm 19).
People are people - we may be coloured differently on the outside, but we all bleed red.
43. Marie said the following at 7:34 PM on Jul 27:
Mike,
I agree. Black men are more likely to date white women and white men are less likely to date black women.
For this reason, you say that white women are considered more attractive.
My question is why are white women considered more attractive? How is attraction formed? As I have stated, I believe that our preferences come from our environments/communities. For that reason, I don’t think that our attractions/preferences are arbitrary.
Consider… how many white males are exposed to black culture vs. how many black males are exposed to white culture (via media, school communities, work environments, church, etc.)?
That being said, it could be argued that white males have a preference for blond hair. Despite this preference, how many white males are willing to go on one date or strike up a friendship with a brunette?
Conversely, how many white males with a preference for white females are wiling to go on one date or strike up a friendship with a black female (assuming that this female was relatively attractive and came from a similar background)? I would imagine that the numbers would be smaller.
We may have to agree to disagree, but I think that when it comes to dating, people have biases. Meaning…I don’t believe that the sole driving force is strictly physical attraction.
That being said, I don’t think that interracial dating is for everyone. Some people are not comfortable with the idea of dating/marrying outside of their race. I can understand why that person would be reluctant to date interracially.
I personally don’t have a problem with interracial relationships. As a black woman, I’ve been on dates with males who are white, Hispanic, and black. I was a military brat and grew up in predominately white setting. In addition my parents were friends with people of all ethnic groups. I think that the reason that I’m attracted to men of different groups and the reason that I don’t have a problem with interracial dating has a lot to do with how I grew up.
Again, we may agree to disagree, but I believe that who we find attractive has a lot to do with who we are exposed to. We all have our comfort zones and I believe that those comfort zones are going to have a heavy influence on our dating practices.
44. lizzy said the following at 8:48 PM on Jul 27:
I've always found this topic intriquing.
I'm a young black woman. I grew up in predominately black neighborhoods in the south, but always had mainly white friends and gone to predominately white churches. When I hit middle school, my black friends ridiculed me for having white friends and by high school I was considered "not black enough" because I didn't talk, act or dress the part. I was always hurt by that comment. Meanwhile, a lot of white guys had crushes on me and the feeling was mutual. I even dated a white guy in college for a while and even though I'm not dating anyone now the chance of me marrying a white guy is very great.
I have dated black guys in the past, but most of them were very worldy and/or stuck in the "gansta" frame of mind which is a total turn-off to me. And finding a good, God-fearing, descent black man who compliments me is like finding a diamond in the rough!
My mom raised me and my sister to be pretty colorblind to those around us. And she would not have a problem with me marrying anyone outside my race, no matter what color they are. They MUST be a christian.
For the comments about white guys dating black women less, that may be partly because a lot of black women I've run across don't find white men as appealing as black men in their eyes.
To add to all this, I've found that Europe is more accepting of culturally-blended couples. And when I was visiting there a few years ago, I ran into several white men with black women. And let's not forget David Bowie and Iman, who live in New York and have the most adorable little girl!
I know if I marry a white guy there WILL be challenges, no matter how great or small. I am very comfortable knowing that God's protection will be over us. I KNOW God would give me and my future husband the ability to raise up mixed children who will look to the Lord if/when such challenges face them. Plus they will find encouragement from us and their extended family members.
45. Mike Theemling said the following at 9:56 PM on Jul 27:
Marie,
The question of "What is attractive?" is an ongoing research issue.
I'm generalizing for sake of time/audience, but scientists have two main theories which may explain the white over black preference.
One is rarity. Most of the world is not fair skinned, blond, and blue eyed. In most of the world people have darker skin (maybe not "black" but darker than pale white), have black hair (technically very dark brown) and dark brown eyes. So when someone who doesn't fit this mold comes around, we pay more attention to it. The theory goes that this rarity drives us to mate with it because its uniqueness may give our offspring an edge, or distinction.
The other driving force is culture as you've stated. What does culture say is beautiful? For example, the "hourglass" look for women is universally attractive to just about all men regardless of nationality. But it seems, at least in the Western world, being super thin, to the point of being unhealthy is considered even more beautiful. Many models would fit the medical definition of being annorexic. This goes against genetic theory which looks for fertility but also looks for healthy bodies. This is also why certain hair/clothes styles are considered attractive or not depending if you were in that era or not. Nowadays, women having breasts on the larger side is considered attractive, but generations ago smaller ones were preferred. As you accurately pointed out, a lot of whites aren't as familiar with black culture as blacks are with whites. Part of it too though could be perception. For example, a significant number of whites believe that black culture in America is essentially to "reject all things white" (clothes, education, music, etc). Obviously, if that stereotype sticks with people, it will have an impact on their behavior.
You said:
"We may have to agree to disagree, but I think that when it comes to dating, people have biases. Meaning…I don’t believe that the sole driving force is strictly physical attraction."
I agree with you. As some posters have said, the social implications of dating/marrying someone who is different than you can certainly affect your actions. Physical attraction is not the sole force for sure, but it still is a big one, especially for men.
I think we agree more than you think. My main thesis in my original posting was to say that it's OK to have racial preferences in terms of dating/marrying if you aren't genuinely attracted to them. If someone doesn't find themselves in general romantically attracted to Latinos even if they don't mind their company/friendship he/she shouldn't be made to feel guilty for it. But I do agree with you that our individual experiences with other races can have a strong impact as well.
46. Crystal said the following at 10:24 PM on Jul 27:
While all these well-intended, politically correct comments are sweet, I am inclined to disagree. Black people and white people are different. I realize that’s a generalization, but for the most part it’s true. I’m black and from the inner city and when my white friends start talking about sleeping on the ground (i.e camping), jumping out of airplanes, and skiing (what inner-city-bred black person skis?) I really can’t relate. Okay so here’s where I get lambasted! I really feel like when at all possible we should date exclusively in our own race—although I refuse to believe that it is morally wrong to do otherwise. I read all three of Denise’s articles, but I must respectfully disagree. I believe that children who are bi-(whatever the word of the week on boundless is) tend to suffer a tremendous identity crisis. My best friend is black and white and he’s not just mixed—he’s mixed up. I have another friend who’s mixed and he has almost no black identity, he may as well be all white. It really stinks to not being able to relate to half of what you are. It’s awful to throw part of your culture away—and I see that happening a lot to mixed children. I think many mixed children feel like they have to choose a race. No doubt our society is responsible for that.
And now for my most controversial point…I am against inter(whatever) relationships when the woman is white and the man is black. Does that means I’m against all of these unions. NO WAY. But I am against it when black men intentionally seek white women because they buy into stereotypes about black women (they are too independent, they are gold diggers, they aren’t as attractive etc). I believe that’s a form of self-hatred. It is the worst kind of racism—racism against ones own people. I believe most black men date white women because they are 1) looking for a status symbol) 2) ashamed of their own race 3) believe that white women will let them get away with behaviors that black women wouldn’t tolerate 4) buy into the forbidden fruit hypothesis or 5) a combination of all five. How else do we explain so many black men marrying and dating outside of their (ahem) group. A few yes…but now its become a trend. I know black men who won’t even date black women, because white is the hottest new craze. I think that’s horribly chauvinist to treat any woman as a trophy—but it happens. And it happens a lot.
Lastly, I am concerned about what will happen to my race (darn did I use the “r” word in this politically correct discussion!) if this type of thinking continues. If black men continue to marry white women because of their lack of racial identity/consciousness (which is what it all boils down to), and then their children grow to lack racial identity/consciousness, and their children etc…etc it will mean the end of the black race—or at least the whitening of it. Maybe I’m overreacting, but that bothers me.
47. Zusanne said the following at 11:16 PM on Jul 27:
My parents are both white, but my mom is American (a good mix of the melting pot), and my dad is European (first generation). Culturally, they couldn't be more different. Going to my dad's family's home was like going to another country--different food, different customs, different language--made my mom feel excluded, and, when we kids came around, us as well. The language and culture were not passed down to us. As an adult, I'm disappointed that I don't have that knowledge of my heritage, but I am proud to be an American--part of a country that welcomes those who are facing difficulties in their native lands.
Having said that, I live in south Florida. While it is easy to lump everyone "Latin" together, their cultures are very distinct. I hear friendly(ish) discussions on which country has the "true" Spanish, whether rice and beans should be yellow/green/white rice and the beans should be black/red/white. Even within the Latin culture is a great deal of nationalistic pride and, unfortunately, racism.
Having two people who are the same color isn't a guarantee that cultural differences won't make a difference. Oh, and what about the Sunni and the Shiites fighting each other? Or the threats that many countries are making against Israel? They claim a common heritage and have similar features, yet they have been in conflict for hundreds of years. It must be the internal values that hold people together. Skin is just skin.
48. Melody said the following at 1:57 AM on Jul 28:
My cousins are mixed: their father a black Canadian, their mother a white Jamaican. My mother is a white Jamaican who married a white Dutch Canadian. It annoys me that people don't take my ethnicity and cultural background seriously because I'm white.
In May, I went to a small town in Nova Scotia and met a wonderful caring Christian grandmother.
Somehow we got talking about "interracial" marriage.
Talking to her was the first time I ever heard someone talk who was really against it. It was mind boggling to me. She said that she was against it because it was hard and unfair for the children who would get teased and feel they didn't fit in.
I told her straight up that kids get teased for being fat, being pretty , being ugly, being tall; that it was no reason to be against 'interracial' marriage.
I dont' know if I convinced her.
49. Marci said the following at 5:42 AM on Jul 28:
Hey All!
Thanks to Ted Slater, Denise Morris and others for interogating definitions of race, ethicity etc! I might only add that the word "ethnicity" is disliked by many who study race because people often use it to describe any group non-white, failing to realize who white groups are also "ethnic" as well (this is particularly the case when the argument is that so and so came from another country, therefore they are ethnic - but many whites are from parts of Europe; the argument that whites [or anyone!] should not be considered ethnic because they 'arrived sooner' is also disputed, as people rightly point out that in Canada the first peoples were not white...so basically everyone's ethnic to a certain degree).
About dating between races (although we know that race is an idea - it is NOT a physical or biological reality): I agree with many posters that race should not influence your choice of who to date/marry. I think factors such as class and geography have more to do with things in the long run. For instance, I'm currently with a black man, but I have been attracted to white men before. I've noticed that I'm attracted to individuals who have similar backgrounds to mine: the same rank in the middle class that I'm from. They think the same way I do - they want to send their children to private education like I do, think children should go to the best university for their program and likely go on to graduate school, want them to be very involved in church and give back to the community, etc. So for me, race wasn't an issue - but class sure was! I've actually ended relationships based on different perspectives in these key areas. Part of my thinking is influenced by my parents position (though they're now citizens) as immigrants from the West Indies. You wouldn't want to marry someone who didn't think the same as you did on these issues, because there's enough discrimination out there without putting uneducated/disadvantaged offspring in the mix. I was taught since I was a child that I had to be better than my non-black collegues if I wanted to be successful; so far, the strategy has worked, and I don't plan to veer off path with my children (when I have them)- the next generation should achieve even more than I do. I think Oprah's right when she says that education is the great equalizer.
So I really do think that maybe attraction isn't just about race - it is also about background. Research bears me out - numerous studies suggest that despite the claim that 'opposites attract,' people of the same class/background ultimately marry.
About the white and black men preferring white women - it is any shock? Look at how our media portrays white beauty as THE most desirable - as many articles by staff at boundless suggest, people are influenced by the media when it comes to their tastes in the oppositite sex. For example, if black women are sexualized in the media, and we always hear that you bring home the "good girl" to mama, how is it surprising that no one's bringing mama home a black woman?!?
Blessings to All
50. H.B. said the following at 8:06 AM on Jul 28:
3 Things -
I didn't realize that BJU had that huge a reputation so that everyone here knew which school...but yes, that's the school. *I'm gonna be in trouble*
Aww, I'm truly sorry, Carrie Lea! I didn't realize quite what I was saying, as I completely agree with what you said about that North-South prejudice. Didn't mean to make you bristle up. Honestly, the first time I ever strongly disliked someone (had to get over it, is was my roommate) was at a Christian camp (of all places), it was a girl from a New England state who told me frankly that she hated Southerners because they were too friendly.
*Not that all Northerners would say such a cruel thing! or even anything but a minority feel that way!* My next thing explains my being neither Northerner nor Southerner...
And "V" - OH YEAH! :D That's my homeland, Central Florida, I do miss and love it. Orlando just brings everyone together I guess :P *cough cough* Not mentioning any particular theme parks, as I love Sea World best... Anyhowww, in my opinion it wouldn't be dishonoring your parents to marry someone who's of another race, BECAUSE according to Genesis, you leave your father and mother and the two of you become one flesh. You aren't under quite the same rules anymore --- you're making your own household.
51. Crystal said the following at 8:48 AM on Jul 28:
Marci what you said about black women not being portrayed positively in the media is definitely true. But I think you are forgetting that black men are portrayed even less positively. They are uneducated, swearing, misogynists, who objectify women for their own selfish gratification. That’s what you see in the media! And there are hundreds of other such stereotypes. Yet these depictions haven’t stopped white women from being attracted to black men. Why have they then succeeded (to use your logic) in making black women unappealing---particularly to their own men? Also I can’t tell you how much media I’ve come across that has white women half-dressed and shaking their thing, or having a sexual encounter, or doing things that are too unchristian to even be talked about. Also consider that the majority of porn (think playboy) is white. Many black men’s first experience with the idea that white is sexy probably came from magazines like Playboy and Maxim. All women are sexualized and caricatured in media! That’s the sad reality we live in.
I also want to add that as a very conscious black woman it does something to me when I see another one of my men with a white woman on his arm. It feels like a smack in the face. It feels like a betrayal—like he’s selling out—as if he is throwing his race away. We must also not forget that a few years ago if he had even looked at a white woman he could have been lynched. I recently watched a documentary in which a young black guy was arrested because he was dating a white girl whose parents accused him of kidnapping. They even threatened to disown their daughter if she refused to press charges. The police didn’t ask questions they just threw him in jail without even trying to hear his side of the story. We must consider the painful and sad history of this country and how that history affects race relations today. Racism still thrives and in many situations (like the aforementioned one) it’s just not safe to date outside of the race. It causes unnecessary tension and hurt.
I’d also like to add that I really appreciate this discussion. I don’t agree with many of the comments, but they were genuinely expressed and well articulated. These discussions of race always give me food for thought. Thanks Denise and Boundless for providing a forum where these controversial topics can be discussed with Christian love.
52. Shazia said the following at 9:26 AM on Jul 28:
This may be a first on here, but as someone light-skinned enough to get a sunburn in 30 minutes of sun exposure, I tend to have a preference for Caucasian men, or at the very most, olive-skinned men (like you would see in Spain, Italy, Greece, etc.)
My father is not white at all, he is from Pakistan, but my mother is white and somehow I have her exact skin complexion, so I identify myself as white. As far as dating (I have no idea when I'm ever going to be on my first date so a part of me even wonders why I'm writing this but anyway), I tend to prefer men in the Caucasian race but I have never really wanted to say that outwardly because some people think you're racist and I for one think that is absurd, but not everyone might share that view. I view racism, as a different definition. I view it as blind hate and condoning of violence against anyone SIMPLY because their skin color is noticeably different than you. And that is certainly anything but the truth about me. I don't feel any antagonism against anyone simply because of the level of melanin they have. How can one help what skin color they have?
But the problem is, my preference for men (dating wise) on the lighter-skinned side would not sit well with my father because he would view me as prejudiced, so that is where my identity crisis comes in. (He tried to have me get to know this young man - my 2nd cousin - a little better in hopes of marriage but I wasn't attracted to him, and he was darker than my father - and my father did not like it at the time - but fortunately that matter is long gone) I don't view my father as this darker-skinned man (he really isn't that dark-skinned, he's just not olive-skinned either), just my father. But when it comes to dating, I don't know if I am crazy about dating someone in my father's race (this is the part where I feel horrible about saying this - but this is an example of an identity crisis that someone here pointed out).
Well if any of this doesn't sit well with anyone, perhaps it didn't come out right.
53. Jessica said the following at 11:02 AM on Jul 28:
Speaking as a black woman who is pretty much equal opportunity, I was struck by Crystal's comment that dating outside of race might not be safe. Having experienced persecution because of my color, my height, my gender and my religion, I would have to say that if I were only to do what is safe, I would lock myself in my apartment and never come out. (And even that's a risk... what if there's a fire?) As Christians, we're always going to be misfits regardless of whatever else we choose to do, so if I meet and choose to marry a man who isn't black, I'm not going to allow the ungodly opinions and sinful actions of others to put asunder what God has joined.
Jesus came to give us abundant life in every area... He didn't say it would be safe.
54. xeres said the following at 11:25 AM on Jul 28:
Jessica,
I was going to say that but you beat me to the punch. I'll start with this. I understand Crystal's concerns. I mean, being ashamed of your own ethnicity is not a good thing. Plus, there is nothing wrong with marrying within your race. However, she didn't point out (sadly) that it is just as wrong to intentionally date within your own race primarily to stay safe or out of fear of becoming a sellout as just as it is not right for folks to intentionally date someone outside of your race out of shame of your own culture or out of wanting to fit into the majority.
Plus, we all carry baggage when we date or marry.
55. Jane Coaston said the following at 12:49 PM on Jul 28:
Crystal,
being that my father is black and my mother is white, and they have been happily married since 1979, i find your statements highly offensive. first of all, why wouldn't an inner-city raised person camp? my dad was raised in the inner city of cincinnati, and he and my mom love to go to the red river gorge for a few nights of camping. there is no racially defined "thing" people do. my dad wasn't a "gold digger"- being that he's a northwestern educated librarian, its hardly something he worried about.there is no "forbidden fruit" aspect- if a white person on this board would have made the same statement (and even more, if they would have worried about the "darkening" of the white race) they would have been rightfully lambasted. and my sister and i are not "confused". we refuse to choose a race- why should we? we are black and white. both. not either. i am completely and entirely repulsed. what does it mean to "identify" as black? be able to dance well? be able to name top 10 hip hop artists at the drop of a hat? sheesh.
56. Marie said the following at 1:01 PM on Jul 28:
Mike,
This may be getting slightly off topic…
I agree with your argument that people should not feel guilty about who they are attracted to or how they date, when it comes to interracial dating. However, I disagree with the idea that our preferences are completely free from any kind of racial bias.
I think that this country is still pretty fragmented along racial lines. The preference argument is used from everything to where people sit in the cafeteria, where people live, where people work, and even where people choose to worship.
We are all human beings and as such, we all struggle with a sinful nature. Our struggle with sin often includes partiality (whether that be race, gender, education, etc.)
The problem I have with the preference argument is that it lets us off the hook. It keeps up from doing the hard work of looking inside of ourselves to see if we subconsciously or consciously treat various groups of people differently or even negatively based on outward/superficial appearances.
Our country has a long history of racial tension. It’s only been about 40 years that legalized segregation has ended. Stating that fact, I find it hard to believe that our nation or even the Christian community as a whole has found complete healing in this area.
Again, we may have to agree to disagree. It sounds like we both believe that interracial dating is not for everyone. It sounds like we both agree that people should not feel guilty about who they are attracted to and/or how that influences a person’s dating patterns. However, it sounds like we disagree about the nature of preference.
57. BDB said the following at 3:26 PM on Jul 28:
Gosh...I forget how different it is living in Southern California. My city is 40% minority, but the city votes 65% Republican...and we know that half of white people vote Democrat, which tells me that a good half the minorities in town are voting Republican.
Shazia brings up an important point: it's more than just black and white. Personally, I see people discriminate a lot more based on speech than skin color. Have you ever watched an American talk to a dark-skinned person with a flawless British accent? They treat them differently. I see the same thing with Latinos who speak flawless English - they get treated differently.
I definitely think that personal experience shapes people's perceptions on this issue. My lab partner for science classes during high school was half Japanese. She wasn't a Christian and ran in a different social crowd than me, but we worked really well together, so we took the same classes on purpose. I can't remember who she was dating, I just vaguely remember there was a lot of it.
58. Crystal said the following at 9:00 PM on Jul 28:
Dear Jessica,
When I wrote my earlier posts I was not targeting you or anybody else specifically. I was merely sharing my feelings on a very contentious topic. My intentions were never to offend or “repulse” anybody. When I talk about living in the inner city, that’s a euphemism for the hood and black people from the hood don’t find the same things appealing that white people from more privileged backgrounds do. I used camping, sky-driving, and skiing as examples because where I’m from these activities are enjoyed predominately by white people. Sure it’s hard to generalize, but I think we can all agree that generally there are things that white people enjoy that blacks do not and vice versa.
Also I think you misunderstood me, I never said that black men were “gold diggers”, what I did say was that many of them buy into the stereotype that black women fall into that category. You see, whenever a black man does something that goes against his stereotype (i.e go to college), he tends to rush right out and get a white woman and throw his race away. That’s another generalization, but I think it’s relevant. I think black men that date outside of their race have an agenda, and I believe that most fall into one of the categories I listed in my prior posts. I’ve seen it, read about it, and experienced it! I think that to choose to date a person just because of their race is just as wrong as to choose not to date them just because of their race.
Lastly, when I talk about racial identity and consciousness, I’m not talking about dancing or hip-hop. That’s entirely irrelevant. I think that you should look up these terms. If you understood them fully you wouldn’t have made the assumptions you made. Read up on the theory of “psychological nigrescence” which talks about how racial identity (a group identity or sense of people-hood related to self esteem) is developed. Consciousness refers to a psychological awareness that one is black living in a world that can be highly hostile to people of color. It’s really hard to paraphrase these very complex constructs without posting 50 paragraphs, but I encourage you to check out the article “African Self-Consciousness and the Mental Health of African Americans” by Joseph Baldwin for a more complete definition. Also check out the Souls of Black Folk by W.E.B Dubios where he talks about dual consciousness.
I think black men who date outside of their race usually lack such identity/consciousness and that it has implications for their future generations. If all black men began to neglect their race and adopt and anti-black worldview, then I am justifiably concerned about the future of the black culture I love so much!
59. Katie Hart said the following at 12:48 AM on Jul 29:
I agree that a lot has to do with personal experience. I grew up in churches that were at least 99% Caucasian (I was homeschooled so school didn't have an influence), and up until recently didn't even have a casual friendship with someone who wasn't Caucasian. I simply never had the opportunity. I'll admit that getting to know someone who was black or hispanic scared me a little - just because I had no clue what, if anything, would be different.
On a side note, my brother tans easily and did landscaping for a while, so we'd teasingly call him our foreign exchange student because he was so much darker than the rest of us. People often seemed surprised that we were siblings, and we've even been asked if one of us was adopted (nope!).
60. Laura said the following at 6:21 AM on Jul 29:
Guys, I realise this is a subject many people feel very strongly about, I just find the blogs becoming narrower when referring to races (for want of a better word). Not all 'mixed matches' are black and white and I although I can appreciate that they are a majority of mixed marriages, can we please not forget the other 'races' in the world - Asian, Middle Eastern, Nth African, African, Sth African, and then the vast continent of Europe. Each of these would present its own set of challanges - for example, someone of Swedish background and someone of Italian background. From my limited understanding, two very different cultures that would present their own unique challanges and obstacles in a courtship/marriage. By all means, keep blogging away, but lets please not forget the rest of the world in our enthusiasm.
61. Jane said the following at 10:58 AM on Jul 30:
Crystal,
Its Jane, not Jessica. And how is my dad marrying my mom "anti-black"? was her marrying him "anti-white"? i dont understand how marrying outside one's race limits one's ability to embrace one's cultural history and sensibilities. my choice to keep my hair natural, and my embrace of traditional african dance and drum styles (particularly west african) should be more important than the fact that im half white.
my dad's agenda was his love for my mom. “He was the most interesting person I had ever met. He still is,” says my mom. “We finish each other’s sentences, we laugh at the same things; we speak the same language, basically.”
62. BDB said the following at 11:12 AM on Jul 30:
Ha! I'd totally forgotten another example right in front of my face. My best friend from college was of Japanese descent, though her family has been American for a few generations. She married a gentleman who I thought was white (maybe a little tan) because he was from Montreal and spoke French.
Then I met his parents His mom is white from British Columbia...and his dad is from Tahiti.
They have a great marriage. Their daughter kind of looks hispanic so far, which will fit right in in California. Since they run in well-educated circles, I don't think they have any problems.
63. Renee said the following at 12:02 PM on Jul 30:
I believe race exists because when some people look at me, and when I look at then, the differences we see inspire curiousity and wonder, and sometimes, disbelief that another human being exists who looks like that.
I don't think that acknowledging our differences or saying the word "race" inspires racism or even has to go with racism. There are differences in the way we look that originate with which continent or which part of which continent our ancestors come from. Certain cultural traits travel with those looks, and that is why I am disturbed to hear someone talk about black American culture as being a barrier to white culture. It feels like we're talking about destroying one culture in favour of another, which cannot, in my mind, be good.
On the beauty front, if perceptions of beauty were about rarity then we'd expect that white men from mostly white towns would find black women far more appealing than the white women they grew up with. But they don't.
Then I agree with the point that black women have been sexualized by American media in a way that makes them no longer the good girl that any sensible man would want to carry home to their mother. It's no good to argue that white women are also sexualized in a degrading way because the fact is that when that happens she's just another woman being degraded. But when it's a black woman, it's a Black woman who is being degraded. That makes a difference.
I think there's also a difference in the level and kind of racism directed at different racial groups, and that means that there is a difference in how interracial relationships and marriages work, depending on the background on each partner. Marriages between white and Asian might just be more acceptable than marriages between white and black.
64. Carrie Lea said the following at 12:16 PM on Jul 30:
H.B.,
Hey, it's no problem. Actually, you didn't imply that all Southerners are racist, only that there is still a lot of prejudice in the South, so you didn't say anything that should offend me. Sadly, I have witnessed racism in the South myself.
My parents (and others in my family) are proud Southerners who are intelligent, educated, and work side-by-side with both black and white people, esteeming each of them on the basis of their character and merit, not on the basis of their color. There are plenty of Southerners like them. Unfortunately, there are other Southerners who give us a bad reputation. The South is not as free from racism as I wish it would be -- and being reminded of that does get to me sometimes (not through any fault of your own, H.B.).
I guess I have some prejudice struggles myself -- namely, I have to be careful not to think badly of someone just for being a Northerner. :)
65. Kellie said the following at 1:38 PM on Jul 30:
Interracial dating...well I'm a quarter middle eastern and 75% white, and my husband is half latino and half white. He looks like he could be hispanic, or asian, or just an exotic looking white person. I find it kind of humorous being a very white looking person with a hispanic last name. And I like the fact that we may look different and have different backgrounds...but are perfect together.
66. Denise Morris said the following at 8:34 AM on Jul 31:
Honestly you guys, I don't know if I'm just an anomaly, but I've never experienced the things you are talking about. As I mentioned, I'm bi-racial, and no one has ever been cruel to me because of it. Also, unless I marry someone who is half black/half white, I will have an interracial marriage. I have dated black guys and white guys and no one has ever said anything to me about it. It's just not an issue. I'm not at all denying that problems and issues exist -- but I am going to be adamant that these problems and issues don't ALWAYS exist when it comes to interracial relationships.
What's interesting to me is all the precaution and fear I see in these posts. It is obviously wise to be cautious and thoughtful about the choices we make, but we must be careful not to be fearful where we should not.
Interestingly, the ONE time I felt discriminated against because of my interracial status was when one of my white friends was considering dating someone with skin much darker than hers. Her parents were very concerned (freaked out) and talked about all of the horrible problems they would face, how their children would be ostracized, how their lives would basically be miserable. I was deeply hurt. First of all, I hadn't experienced those things. Secondly, her parents were talking about my situation -- about my parent's lives. None of it was true, but I felt it was thoughtless of them to assume that my life was so tragic.
Again, I'm not denying that there can be problems and difficulties when it comes to interracial relationships. (If there are, though, so what? Our Christian lives have not been promised to us without challenges. In fact, James tells us to embrace difficulties because they make us more spiritually mature.) But sometimes I wonder if we don't just go on and on about how there will be so many issues in interracial relationships when it's really not a given. We assume the worst, and doing that may prevent us from something beautiful. We constantly talk about the gift of marriage on this site -- and if we're too picky because of our preferences or fears, we just may miss out on who God has for us.
67. kman said the following at 3:54 PM on Jul 31:
I'm a white guy and am married to a 2nd generation Phillipino woman. She looks Philipino but is thoroughly American. I have only experienced one episode of overt race based hostility. We were on vacation at a tourist town and a couple on a motorcycle yelled "White Power!" at us. I was on alert for anyone trying to mess with us for the rest of the time and felt ashamed to be the same "race" as the people who yelled at us for several weeks. That type of malice is born out of a stubborn type of ignorance. Racism can hide behind any number of exscuses.
68. Naomi said the following at 2:33 AM on Aug 1:
>>I'm a white guy and am married to a
>>2nd generation Phillipino woman. She
>>looks Philipino but is thoroughly
>>American.
This is what I meant in my earlier post. Normally, people born in the same country have the same cultural background now. There isn't a lot of things to adjust to because they virtually were raised the same. The only adjustment would be personalities.
However, it goes to show that people don't look at backgrounds but on skin color -- which is, however which way you twist is around -- is superficial and prejudicial.
And we all know, that's not what our God is all about.
69. Suzanne Eller said the following at 9:23 AM on Aug 1:
My husband is Native American and I'm caucasian. Two things that never come into my thought process when I think about our love of 27 years. I think of the fact that he's kind, gentle, fun, makes me laugh, is an amazing father to our children, loves to play ping pong with me, automatically cleans the kitchen with us after meals, still loves to touch me, has a room-lighting smile, and is smokin' hot. Perhaps people focus on issues that really don't matter, forgetting those that will make a marriage last, or not. . .
Suzanne Eller
70. Netanya said the following at 5:11 AM on Aug 30:
Crystal, forgive me but this is long, too.
Would you also believe my Sri Lankan/Nepalese/Indian friends from college -- sometimes blacker than African Americans -- to have a "black consciousness"? If the reason for this dual consciousness is a world that views black color in a hostile way, how come the stereotype for my friends is that Indians (from India) grow up to be educated or doctors? They’re just as dark, but my friends never displayed any sort of a "black pride" (or "fill-in-the-blank pride" of the country they were from). A healthy pride in the positive elements of the cultures they were from, yes. But an angry (bitter?) pride born out of second-rate treatment due to their race, no.
I grew up in the city around a decent mix of people, and now live in the small midwest town where I went to college. Growing up, I might have been sympathetic to your views. But from my increased perspective having been abroad in several countries (ones both predominantly white and black), living here (in a poor rural area) a bit and being in the military, I find your views to be a bit narrow and prejudiced. Yes, black people from the hood don't say the same things that white people from more privileged backgrounds do -- but white people from the poor inner city or from poor rural areas don't say the same things their more privileged counterparts do, either.
At least until they go to college. Someone earlier made the comment that college is a great equalizer of us all. And I knew plenty of friends who spoke in a rural draw or ebonics (for lack of a better term everyone will understand) on a daily basis, but spoke crisp, Standard American English when giving a speech or in front of others. Did my rural friends sell out on their poor roots and become anti-rural? Did my white ghetto friends lack a white consciousness and become anti-white? I'd gather they're just trying to make a good impression to better life for themselves and their children. Then why would you accuse my black friends in that same situation from being anti-black?
It’s just my perspective that few if anyone brings up psychological nigrescence when talking about Asian or Middle Eastern subculture. Or who would think of claiming that the fair skinned going to Haiti or certain countries in the Middle East could develop a healthy affinity for other whites and avoidance of blacks or dark tan due to hostile experiences? It would be something to be counseled through, not promoted and glossed over with psychological terms.
Just the same, I noticed that blacks attracted to me were interested on the basis of our shared experiences. For the record, I’m a first generation college student on a full ride scholarship, but female and white. Probably for that same reason, upper-suburbanite whites willing to date me were scarce, unless they knew me from the gym or capoeira and liked me for my body. We had little in common, and I made some whites uncomfortable. Probably for similar reasons, I found myself mutually attracted to many of the international students in my major.
Out of college in the military, I find that I tend to be the white person in the group with my friends after hours. Maybe It’s because the military is so diverse, because I don’t’ try to hang out with black people intentionally. It smacks of extreme prejudice and bitterness against non-blacks to think that someone would accuse my friends of being against their race by hanging out with me – or dating or marrying me. Since when does being a genuinely Christian friend mean becoming anti-black or neglecting your own culture? Someone truly whole can take the positive elements out of their heritage and blend it with elements they find positive elsewhere and become more of a person, not less.
I’m sure some of what you said was based on bad personal experience, and I’m truly sorry you were treated so badly. You can stay bitter and angry and see interracial relationships as a slap in the face (or a common view you were silent on, stealing all the good black guys), or you can see it as an act of love between two different people forging something positive out of their shared cultures. Your background is just that; you can always choose how you act.
71. randallgerard said the following at 11:49 AM on Aug 20:
I agree with Crystal. Black culture will not be maintained or enhanced by whitening it. White culture will not be maintained by browning, yellowing and blackening it, either. The Lord made us all different, we should respect that enough and love ourselves enough to marry within our respective races.
For the record: I'm a middle-aged white man, who isn't mad at anybody, has no personal ax to grind, but who still wants his grand-children and his great-grand-children to be proud, free, white people. If that rubs people from other groups the wrong way, too bad. Anyone who wants to take issue with it, better take issue with Crystal as well.
Thanks Crystal. Keep saying what you think.
72. George said the following at 7:01 PM on Aug 27:
Randallgerard is a white skin worshipper while Crystal is a black skin worshipper. It is your right to be racists, and it is my right to call you one. So please exercise your rights, and I shall exercise mine. There is no such thing as white or black people. All figments of American imagination.