Even the Lone Ranger had Tonto by Candice Watters on 07/11/2007 at 1:38 PM

Today's young women are going solo. And they're not doing it with a smile on their face. Angry, crass and anti-man is de rigueur. Musicians as diverse as Country singer Carrie Underwood, Rocker Pink and Grungy Avrile Lavigne are sounding the same theme in their songs "Before He Cheats," U + Ur Hand" and "Girlfriend." So notes David Brooks in a column for the New York Times. He writes,

If you put the songs together, you see they're about the same sort of character: a character who would have been socially unacceptable in a megahit pop song 10, let alone 30 years ago.

This character is hard-boiled, foul-mouthed, fed up, emotionally self-sufficient and unforgiving. She's like one of those battle-hardened combat vets, who's had the sentimentality beaten out of her and who no longer has time for romance or etiquette. She's disgusted by male idiots and contemptuous of the feminine flirts who cater to them. She's also, at least in some of the songs, about 16.

This character is obviously a product of the cold-eyed age of divorce and hookups. It's also a product of the free-floating anger that's part of the climate this decade.

He compares them to a figure of entertainment past:

When Americans face something that's psychologically traumatic, they invent
an autonomous Lone Ranger fantasy hero who can deal with it. The closing of the frontier brought us the hard-drinking cowboy loner. Urbanization brought us the hard-drinking detective loner.

Now young people face a social frontier of their own. They hit puberty around 13 and many don't get married until they're past 30. That's two decades of coupling, uncoupling, hooking up, relationships and shopping around. This period isn't a transition anymore. It's a sprawling life stage, and nobody knows the rules. Of course it's all a fantasy. ... Young people still need intimacy and belonging more than anything else. But the pose is the product of something real -- a response to this new stage of formless premarital life, and the anxieties it produces.

In America we have a little problem with self and society. We imagine we can overcome the anxieties of society by posing romantic lone wolves. The angry young women on the radio these days are not the first pop stars to romanticize independence for audiences desperate for companionship.

Sadly, they won't be the last. But young women deserve better. Not only is it good and natural to want companionship, it's the very solution God designed when Adam was lonely.

As Drs. Leon and Amy Kass wrote in Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar,

...we see everywhere major discontent with the present situation, especially on the part of women. And despite their easily verbalized but, we suspect, only superficial cynicism, we even detect ... longings that they do not realize could be largely satisfied by marrying well.

Even the Lone Ranger had Tonto by Candice Watters on 07/11/2007 at 1:38 PM

Today's young women are going solo. And they're not doing it with a smile on their face. Angry, crass and anti-man is de rigueur. Musicians as diverse as Country singer Carrie Underwood, Rocker Pink and Grungy Avrile Lavigne are sounding the same theme in their songs "Before He Cheats," U + Ur Hand" and "Girlfriend." So notes David Brooks in a column for the New York Times. He writes,

If you put the songs together, you see they're about the same sort of character: a character who would have been socially unacceptable in a megahit pop song 10, let alone 30 years ago.

This character is hard-boiled, foul-mouthed, fed up, emotionally self-sufficient and unforgiving. She's like one of those battle-hardened combat vets, who's had the sentimentality beaten out of her and who no longer has time for romance or etiquette. She's disgusted by male idiots and contemptuous of the feminine flirts who cater to them. She's also, at least in some of the songs, about 16.

This character is obviously a product of the cold-eyed age of divorce and hookups. It's also a product of the free-floating anger that's part of the climate this decade.

He compares them to a figure of entertainment past:

When Americans face something that's psychologically traumatic, they invent
an autonomous Lone Ranger fantasy hero who can deal with it. The closing of the frontier brought us the hard-drinking cowboy loner. Urbanization brought us the hard-drinking detective loner.

Now young people face a social frontier of their own. They hit puberty around 13 and many don't get married until they're past 30. That's two decades of coupling, uncoupling, hooking up, relationships and shopping around. This period isn't a transition anymore. It's a sprawling life stage, and nobody knows the rules. Of course it's all a fantasy. ... Young people still need intimacy and belonging more than anything else. But the pose is the product of something real -- a response to this new stage of formless premarital life, and the anxieties it produces.

In America we have a little problem with self and society. We imagine we can overcome the anxieties of society by posing romantic lone wolves. The angry young women on the radio these days are not the first pop stars to romanticize independence for audiences desperate for companionship.

Sadly, they won't be the last. But young women deserve better. Not only is it good and natural to want companionship, it's the very solution God designed when Adam was lonely.

As Drs. Leon and Amy Kass wrote in Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar,

...we see everywhere major discontent with the present situation, especially on the part of women. And despite their easily verbalized but, we suspect, only superficial cynicism, we even detect ... longings that they do not realize could be largely satisfied by marrying well.

Comments

[1. DannieA said the following at 1:56 PM on Jul 11:]

1

I agree with the blog post pretty much.

I also would like to throw out something for people to think about.

For a long time, violence towards women, cheating on wives etc. were problems that were not looked down on but congregations and people turned a blind eye too "boys will be boys" type of mentality.

I think part of the reason this mentality became popular is because only in the past previous years did these things become NOT okd to do because women are important as well. Even in churches i'm sad to say....a man cheats....hush hush huhs, however, don't catch a woman cheating, you're branded for life!

I hope this trend changes and we grow in a manner than women and men are created to be in honorable relationships with each other.

(on a side note: I love "Before He Cheats" song, that's great!)

Have a wonderful day

[2. Mike Theemling said the following at 2:20 PM on Jul 11:]

2

If you haven't read this article already, I would recommend The Cost of Delaying Marriage by Danielle Crittenden. It speaks frankly and in my opinion quite accurately about modern day women's attitudes, including Christian women.

[3. Mandi said the following at 2:55 PM on Jul 11:]

3

Candice,

Unfortunately I know the truth of this post from personal experience.

But how do you suggest a girl in such a circumstance, before or even after meeting Mr. Right, can help beat down that wall built up around her heart after years of being let down and fed up, learning to be self-sufficient, tiring of the pining for love, companionship, and babies?

I personally would benefit much to get some perspective on this. Thanks.

[4. DannieA said the following at 3:11 PM on Jul 11:]

4

Read the article Mike

I think the two extremes are off...there should be a balance.

My parents who were married at 19 were always afraid I'd get married too soon and not have a solid job and follow the harsh financial road they went. They don't wish they never married, they just wish they would have finished college first.

And as my mother says in spanish

'better to be single then to be a bad marriage'

so there is some sense in delaying marriage, just not extremely.

[5. BDB said the following at 3:54 PM on Jul 11:]

5

Ha - just thought of a funny tie-in to the title of this topic and the "attitude" portrayed.

In Spanish, "Tonto" means "Stupid."

So, the Lone Ranger could have worn a t-shirt that said, "I'm with stupid."

Which, of course reminds me of the Far Side cartoon, wherein the Lone Ranger, in his old age, finally learns what Kemosabe really means...
"an Apache expression for a horse's rear end."

Here's a whole list with "attitude."

http://www.write101.com/kemosabe.htm

[6. Maggie said the following at 4:12 PM on Jul 11:]

6

Let's not forget as well that a lot of today's 20somethings have experienced our own parents' relationships collapsing. I can say for myself that it is difficult to have a positive attitude towards love when I have been the shoulder for my own mother when her husband cheated. But for the grace of God, I would be just as bitter as the women in those songs, and probably more so.

That said, I'm not sure where the author gets the idea that such attitudes were unthinkable in pop music 10 years ago. Anyone remember Courtney Love? And Alanis Morissette's Jagged Little Pill went platinum in 1996, with wayyyyy more attitude the Avril can ever aspire to.

[7. Jamie Morton said the following at 4:15 PM on Jul 11:]

7

When I saw this headline, I was hopeful. I thought that maybe the post would be about how important it is to rely on someone (i.e. God), with the implication that none of us are capable of going it alone.

And I suppose that, indirectly, that's probably what the post is getting at. But frankly, I don't have the patience to do more than skim through any more articles about how unholy modern women are for not pairing themselves off (and being angry at the assumption that they should have to). It feels like beating a dead horse, to me.

[8. Joseph said the following at 4:43 PM on Jul 11:]

8

One part of the problem is that men just aren't maturing as early as they used to. Adolescence for men is extended until about age 25. This leaves mature women with too few compatible mates.

As a "mature" godly man myself I have a strong desire to be married but my voice is not heard in the midst of all the men who are not ready. It drives me crazy when a guy strings a great girl along with no promise of commitment.

Then again when most men now are getting the benefits of marriage (i.e. sex, companionship) without the actual covenant then whats the incentive to get married.

To all the godly holy men out there keep plugging along. We are the salt of the earth.

[9. Jennifer Thomas said the following at 4:44 PM on Jul 11:]

9

Once again the rhetoric comes out of hiding. Congratulations, Boundless, on making at least one reader feel like a marginalized Christian adult because she is still single at 30. As has been discussed here almost ad nauseam, “delaying marriage” is something many (most?) of us would not choose as our preferred way in life, yet it is the scenario, the very life situation, in which we find ourselves.

Did I picture myself single this late in life when I was growing up? I and likely most of the unmarried readership offer a resounding “No.” Am I bitter about this (as the quoted blog might suggest)? Again, no, though it can be a struggle, at times daily, to find contentment in my life as God has given it to me.

I want to rejoice in all things, including the single situation in which I find myself, yet I time and again get the sense that Boundless, and to a much larger part, the Church as a whole, shakes its finger at those without wedding rings and says chidingly, “Why aren’t you married?” Rather than seeing us as “incomplete” or blaming us for seemingly forestalling our adult responsibilities (is marriage truly one of these?!?), let married Christians see their single brethren as assets to the Body of Christ. Support and encourage Christians who are single rather than tear us down.

The author includes a quote that says that the longings of singles “could be largely satisfied by marrying well.” This is faulty thinking; a mindset that works to only create heartache and loneliness. This kind of idea puts unattainable and unfair expectations on another human being to provide for my every need of companionship, acceptance, and belonging. These are needs only God can fulfill when I choose to allow Him access to all of my heart.

How many times have we who are single heard our married friends look back to the days before their vows as being treasured times, as days in which they could focus more fully on God without the responsibility of spouse, and oftentimes children. As one who is yet without a husband, I have the privilege of allowing God to sustain me in times of loneliness—something I will and must continue to do if I ever do marry.

Simply because we are single (by circumstance or choice) does not mean that we are of any less value or worth to God’s kingdom. All throughout my days growing up in the church and now in my theology classes and Bible study, I do not recall the Word as saying we must marry. If we were to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God as Micah 6:8 says, I wonder if there wouldn’t be a more harmonious tune coming from the hearts (and song lyrics) of people.

[10. Frank Hsueh said the following at 4:48 PM on Jul 11:]

10

Miscellaneous thoughts:

• I have this feeling that people want to have more assurance that the marriage as early as possible. I don't think this assurance is as strong as folks want and therefore folks wait.
• Said James Dobson, "A good marriage is not one where perfection reigns: It is a relationship where a healthy perspective overlooks a multitude of unresolvables." I agree. Many married folks around me agree.
• Obviously picking a bad mate will likely result in a bad marriage. But I imagine that if you pick a good mate then you've done ~ 20% of what makes a marriage successful. The other ~ 80% is decided during the first few years of marriage.
• I think the way to go is not to place all your hope in picking the perfect mate, but to find a good mate that has the right guidance to guide you to the healthy perspective of the unresolveables. And to find your guidance.

I hope that made sense ...

[11. Keb said the following at 5:37 PM on Jul 11:]

11

Not everyone is single by choice. Marriage may be what we want, but nothing is going to magically make it happen for us. Early marriage isn't good--but neither is late marriage. And not everyone hits that sweet spot around 23-25 where it's best and actually finds someone they could spend the rest of their lives with.

They say that if you're content with your life, enjoying yourself and feeling confident, you'll be more attractive. I'm sure this is true. It's what I do most days anyhow, because being prostrate with tears for the rest of my single years would be booooooring.

And yet I wonder sometimes if guys see a happy, confident girl and figure she must not want a relationship, or already has one, since she's smiling, and then don't bother to intrude.

[12. Victoria said the following at 6:31 PM on Jul 11:]

12

I agree with Joseph and Jennifer. As a single, though young, Christian woman, there are few men I would consider ever dating because they lack the maturity to lead me spiritually. Jennifer hit the nail on the head also- being single is a gift. I'm not distracted and am therefore able to devote my time completely to missions. I'd be a lot less effective with my attention torn between a husband and children.

[13. SWF seeks SM seeking God said the following at 6:53 PM on Jul 11:]

13

you guys should start a matchmaking service.

seriously. it's time. enough with the t-shirts...

[14. Hope said the following at 8:53 PM on Jul 11:]

14

I get so sick of hearing how being single is all the woman's fault. That we're all so bitter and are man haters. What doesn't seem to be discussed so much is the extended adolescence of males (as another reader posted) that I believe goes into the 30's! Sometimes even later.

Yes, there are a lot of bitter women. But there are just as many immature men. And for those of us who believe that the man should initiate relationships and proposals, it can be embittering to not be pursued. At my church there are FAR more quality marriage-ready women than there are mature marriage-ready men.

I'm ready for an article addressing the male issues. For instance, in a handful of my close Christian friends marriages, the men are perfectly happy letting their wife support the family. Or, why are men delaying marriage?

[15. Laur said the following at 8:58 PM on Jul 11:]

15

I'm only 22, so forgive me if this is presumptuous, but I think that what is happening here - a lot - is that when we single people read cultural diagnostic posts or articles (i.e. this is a thing happening frequently in our society), we tend to hear "if you are like this, you are sinning." I don't think that's what's meant at all by the post-ers. In fact, I think the opposite is probably intended - to encourage those of us who are single and feel like fish out of water that there is a reason we feel this way. Instead of BEATING UP men for not taking initiative or women for putting career ahead of family in our priorities, we should be BUILDING UP one another for godliness. This doesn't mean anyone is "off the hook," but I think it does mean we ought to be patient and gracious toward each other. When we think we hear criticism, I think we ought to listen for the encouragement that is likely intended.

There is an extent to which we have very little control over our status, and an extent to which we have tons of control over it. What is important is that what is in our power (i.e. what is up to us) is in line with the Lord's heart as expressed in Scripture. Both singleness AND marriage are gifts - we would be fools to deem one exalted and the other lowly. But as gifts, they are given in the timing of the Giver and not necessarily ours. This is actually a good thing.

I'm not saying singleness isn't hard - believe you me, I want to be married like new parents want sleep at night. And I'm not saying marriage isn't hard - I've heard countless war stories. But I think we need, in this forum at least, to assume the best of our brothers and sisters. They aren't trying to browbeat us; they aren't trying to judge us based solely on our marital status; they aren't trying to make us discontent with what God has given us today. If there is a dead horse being beaten here, I think it is because of misunderstanding.

[16. Fred W said the following at 9:01 PM on Jul 11:]

16

Why do people take comments so personally - Boundless has always made allowances for those who are single for the sake of serving God and those who are single because of circumstances.

Stop reading so much into it.

[17. Kristina said the following at 9:31 PM on Jul 11:]

17

I actually have to agree with Keb. I've been guilty of feeling bad for myself because I'm not married yet, and I don't have any decent eligable prospects around... but once I refocus and remember that God has a plan for me I'm much more confident and happy with my life. I sometimes wonder if perhaps this reads as not being available for a relationship, or not wanting one.

Does a woman have to go "boy chasing" or hunting to clue them in?? I should hope not. Being very flirtatious to get a man's attention has never been a virtuous image in my mind. I would hope that mature Christian guys would be the risk takers, by persuing a woman who seems like she displys godly qualites, instead of waiting for a one of us to fawn over you in order to attract your attention.

I hate to say it, but I do sound a little bitter over this hehe... However, it's the truth from my experience.

[18. xeres said the following at 10:27 PM on Jul 11:]

18

Victoria, what do you mean by singleness being a gift? Do you mean it's a spiritual gift from the Holy Spirt or what? Because I don't see how our martial status is a spiritual gift, which sounds illogical.

[19. Justice said the following at 11:20 PM on Jul 11:]

19

Keb, some good points there

Hmm, what about some of those Hillsong United guys that were or are single until their mid to late 20's, they are being used my God in a MAJOR way.

When will these secular women take some of the blame for these problems? They put out, then wonder why there is no respect, some of them take and take and take and never give back, I hear women all the time talk trash about their spouses and complain and it's not like they are God's gift to men either.

[20. Stephen said the following at 11:35 PM on Jul 11:]

20

I frequently detect subtle, or in this case not-so-subtle, male bashing on Boundless. Sure there are more and older Christian singles now than years ago, but this is not all the fault of men.

I tried to date in college. Three of the Christian women I expressed interest in made it clear that they weren't interested in serious dating. And all three are 30 and single now, and with PhDs or MDs. Another, whom I did date for two years, decided singleness was preferable.

I know that your mileage may vary, but from my POV a significant subset of young Christian women are more concerned with their careers than marriage.

[21. BDB said the following at 11:57 PM on Jul 11:]

21

Keb wrote:

>>And yet I wonder sometimes if guys see a happy, confident girl and figure she must not want a relationship, or already has one, since she's smiling, and then don't bother to intrude.<<

Nah...that's not enough. However, if she whips out her cell phone immediately upon the pastor dismissing the church service, and is already talking on it as she briskly walks out of the sanctuary...well, that kind of says, "don't approach..."

[22. Don said the following at 12:47 AM on Jul 12:]

22

I find it interesting to note that Avrille Lavigne is actually married, which is why the meanings of some of her songs don't make a whole lot of sense.

[23. Brittany said the following at 1:30 AM on Jul 12:]

23

I agree with a lot of the pervious posters. As a 27 year old, single Christian woman who is diligently serving and seeking what God has for me, I long for companionship, I want to "marry well" but I haven't purposefully delayed it, well no, I take that back, I have delayed it...but you know why, because those I have dated were not who God had for me. Many of us are single because we adhere to standards; we won't budge just for companionship. There is more than marriage that will keep us from being "alone" and bitter. I anxiously await the day I meet my future spouse, but until then, I conciously fight against the bitterness that would try to creep in because I know God has me where He has me, for this time as necessary. When I meet "him," with the standards I have and what God has done in my life, I'm pretty sure that with mature stage we'll both be at, our marriage will be built on a solid foundation. Marrying well, yes, I would like to do it...where are the Christian men us Christian women are supposed to marry well with?

[24. Ro said the following at 2:27 AM on Jul 12:]

24

On the Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar quote, some of us single women do not have that luxury. If our longings could largely be satisfied by marrying well, since we don't have the option of getting married (maybe we aren't pretty enough, maybe we don't have nice enough hearts or personalities, maybe God doesn't think we're holy enough), we have to learn to satisfy those longings in God.

I agree with Keb, we can't be upset that God isn't giving us marriage. We have to learn to stop having those longings, as God clearly intends for us currently to be single. Its painful to continue to have unmet longings for companionship. The best a single female can do is learn to be independent and not need a man, or at least approximate this as closely as she can. You have to learn to enjoy your independence if God is currently choosing to make you single. You have to make the most of it. Companionship is wonderful. We all long for intimacy. If God keeps saying no to providing these, you have to try to be ok by yourself.

God may have made relationships in response to Adam's loneliness, but if he isn't answering your prayers for a spouse, you have to learn to meet those needs for companionship elsewhere, until God provides. You can't carry on like a person with unmet needs. You have to learn independence. If God is saying no to his cure for loneliness to you, you have to find another way to not be lonely, if you can. Because continuing in loneliness is unpleasantly painful. God says he gives us everything we need. "The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want." If he is not giving us a life companion after years of praying for this, we obviously don't need one for now. And we need to learn to be ok with this.

Also, when I've mentioned in discussions with fellow Christians on the topic of singleness, that God created women in response to Adam's loneliness, I am told that relationships were created to ease Adam's loneliness, not Eve's...

I am just saying that after years of praying and waiting on God, what more can a single women do then realize that God does not want to provide her this kind of companionship, for whatever reason, for the foreseeable future, and she must therefore try to meet her needs as best she can, with friends and family and other kinds of companionship? What choice does she have? Of course, she will continue to pray, but this hasn't resulted in provision in the past, and so she is forced to be independent, due to God's repeated answers of no.

I applaud your work at Boundless, I really do. I just disagree slightly with some of the sentiments in this post (although not all). A single woman God isn't providing with a husband needs to learn independence and other ways to cope with her loneliness than wating for a husband that is taking years to come.

[25. Shauna said the following at 2:31 AM on Jul 12:]

25

My feeling is that being single is only a gift for some people- for others it's a difficult phase that we need to trust God to help us through. I am 26, and single, and I have gradually progressed from feeling that I didn't need a man, to feeling that maybe being single isn't so great, to feeling that I really don't like being alone in my journey through life! Yet it's easier said than done to marry and marry well. The few men I have met that I might have considered marriage material were already taken or else uninterested. And now that I'm out of college, it's really hard to meet anyone who's single and Christian, let alone marriage minded and compatible with me! I am alternately angry with God for leaving me single and alone for so long, and resigned to the fact that only He can help me through this time and only He can help me find someone to spend my life with. So my conclusion is: if you're single and really are OK with that, then all power to you! But if you're single and wish not to be, then remember that ALL good things come from God. He doesn't require that you like being single, only that you give control to Him and seek to follow Him in the life that you have now. He will take care of the rest.

[26. Ro said the following at 2:56 AM on Jul 12:]

26

Some very good points are made in this post.

But for me personally:
For today, God isn't providing, so I have to try to be lonely as little as possible, and try to be as ok on my own as I can. I never quite get here. But I have to try. Because I don't like being lonely.

[27. bryce said the following at 3:32 AM on Jul 12:]

27

"it is good for man not to be alone," but also, "I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion."

apparently to the apostle paul the reason to get married doesn't have as much to do with "you complete me," than it does, "i'm a fornicator without you!"

like most singles, i hate that the church has been taken over by the married elitists. i'm a pastor and let me tell you that the church leadership world is full of, "you're only a real pastor when you're married" types. they ru(i)n our churches.

the fact of the matter is paul gave one good reason for marrying, sin. to the people who had the "gift" he said, "DON'T MARRY!" remain single. just like the world's culture trickles down from the sinful elitists who teach in universities, so goes the church culture. we breed a church culture that puts primacy on marriage and illegitimacy and "late adolescence" on singles. i'm not a huge fan of gilbert bilizekian, but something he said in a book years ago struck a chord with me and goes something like this, "when Biblical values get replaced with 'family values' you can be sure the church is teaching error."

one reason is obvious: family values apply only to those with families; whereas Biblical values apply to all.

i close with some wise words of GOD, spoken through the apostle paul's pen: "I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord. But the married man is anxious about worldly things, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried or betrothed woman is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit. But the married woman is anxious about worldly things, how to please her husband."

[28. Jennifer Thomas said the following at 5:58 AM on Jul 12:]

28

<>

AMEN!
Thanks, "SWF" for your succinct call to action!

[29. Carrie said the following at 6:28 AM on Jul 12:]

29

As a SWF there are some things I am unclear on.
(1) How is Micah 6:8 any less applicable in marriage than in singleness? Something tells me that marriage would require more effort/help from God to do this in marriage than in singleness.
(2) What happens if you don't feel like you're damaged from the your parents' horrible marriage? What happens if Christ has healed/shielded you from any real lasting damage and so you feel like you're ready?
(3) What do you do when, despite you're best efforts, men still seem to find you undesireable?

Much of this can be resolved by faith in God's sovereignty -- He is in control of it all and is working things for your good. Like the Boundless writers, I'm a little put off by comments like "I'd be a lot less effective with my attention torn between a husband and children."

" If we were to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God as Micah 6:8 says, I wonder if there wouldn’t be a more harmonious tune coming from the hearts (and song lyrics) of people." (as if the world just had more single people singing Kum-bye-ya together around a camp fire all would good and right)
"I don't have the patience to do more than skim through any more articles about how unholy modern women are for not pairing themselves off (and being angry at the assumption that they should have to). It feels like beating a dead horse, to me."
What is Boundless.org a branch of? Focus on the FAMILY. They are committed to ministering to Christian FAMILIES. So, naturally they concern themselves with ministering to people who will one day have a FAMILY. Husbands and wives start of a single people. Like it or not, there are some social stigmas in place that do go against what Scripture teaches and thus frustrating many Christian single people who strive to be the Proverbs 31 woman.
I think that if one does not want to hear about how wrong certain social stigmas are, they should not be on the website of a ministry that concerns itself with fighting against certain social stigmas and seeks to be faithful to Scripture.
Call me crazy, but I don't think the problems is with the writers and their convictions that come from their study of Scripture.

[30. J-Twinkle said the following at 7:39 AM on Jul 12:]

30

Candice,

I have some questions for you regarding this post:

Do you believe that marriage is the end-all way to end the bitter discontent of single women?

Where in the Bible does it say that Adam was lonely? I see where it states that GOD said that it was not good for Adam to be alone.

What was the point of this post? Was it to make single women see their source of their bitterness as the result of denying their desire for marriage?

[31. Lindsey said the following at 8:02 AM on Jul 12:]

31

To Jennifer Thomas: AMEN!!!!!!

You beautifully worded the thoughts that go through my head every time i read a Boundless article about Christian singles and their NEED to be married. It is frustrating on lots of levels. Firstly, like you, i have remained single far longer than i had ever planned or hoped for. So, it is not that i have delayed marriage...marriage has delayed me. Secondly, i agree that if you tell singles to find a marriage partner so they will be fulfilled or happier or whatever, they are going to be expecting a LOT from that partner, too much perhaps. Singles need to learn to take those desires and needs to God, because He alone can complete us. A spouse only compliments us.
And thirdly, i can't help but wonder if marrying young is the reason for a 50% divorce rate.
I do sometimes find myself wondering sometimes how so many silly girls who don't seem to be very mature or have a decent grip on reality seemed to get married, and so many mature, intelligent, practical women stay single......do guys like silly girls who have no idea what it means to be a godly wife???

[32. Maria said the following at 8:04 AM on Jul 12:]

32

I really have to agree with the above posts. Where are the posts about men growing in maturity? I go to a fantastic church and have 8-10 wonderful godly girlfriends who challenge and inspire me in my walk with the Lord. I have some guy friends too...but none of them are walking with the Lord the extent I consider mandatory before contemplating the possibility of a relationship. Among godly christian women, believe me, the issue is not really on our end.

And I have to ask, if my disire long term is to become a mother and serve the Lord that way, what could possibly be the harm of living life on my own, learning how to pay bills, manage a home and budget and serve the church while I'm undistracted by a man? I'm not going to sit on my parents couch and wait for Mr. Right to walk up and get down on his knee. I'm going to keep pursing the Lord and living a productive life. If a great godly man comes along and wants to interupt that, that's great!! But until then...I'm moving on with my life. I'm going to grow in my relationship with the Lord and I'm going to learn how to better serve God's people. Unless I'm grossly mistaken, that's where many, many women stand.

Also, I don't think I'm in a place where I feel like it would be beneficial to my relationship with the Lord to get married. My perspective is that my calling is first to be a woman who follows God. I absolutely refuse to consider marriage unless I am sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that that situation will draw me closer to the Lord, and make me more effective in carrying out the Great Commission. Right now that is just not the case. My heart is in a place where it will become easily distracted, and I love the Lord too much to let anything get in the way.

Could we focus on some of these issues in posts regarding women's singleness? Keep in mind that the women singing those songs are not regenerated believers, they are women who have sucumbed to lies the world has preached to them. Many godly women do want to be married and are just pursing the Lord's will for their lives for the present time, which may or may not include marriage.

[33. Ted Slater said the following at 8:38 AM on Jul 12:]

33

Hope -- it's refreshing to hear someone complain that we only blame women for the problem of delayed marriage. Usually we hear from men complaining that we're only picking on them. Maybe you and Stephen should work out who we pick on most.

The truth is that both men and women share responsibility for this situation, and each can do something about it.

[34. Tracy said the following at 8:39 AM on Jul 12:]

34

Now *that* would be interesting. Who wants to start it? haha :)

[35. Hope said the following at 8:54 AM on Jul 12:]

35

Stephen-
I feel exactly the opposite. I detect a not-so-subtle women bashing in the articles. It's written like it's all our fault for being single, for delaying marriage, etc.

[36. Brian said the following at 9:03 AM on Jul 12:]

36

Joseph -

In response to your closing remark, "To all the godly holy men out there keep plugging along. We are the salt of the earth", amen brother. Thanks for reminding us of that glorious truth.

I believe if we are indeed to be salt and light to this dark and tasteless culture, we need the church. Ladies, I do hope that you are secure whenever you're around your brothers in Christ and realize that we do want you to be served with sincere purity. Men, this is where women will find safety and comfort, and it's up to us to take up the joyful yoke of leading, initiating, guiding, and directing them (and everyone else) to the holy hill called Calvary, provide encouragement and support, and thank God for them.

We've all been transferred (Col 1:13); so let's live not only in the good of that but also reflect it into our culture. Awesome, isn't it?

[37. Maria said the following at 9:28 AM on Jul 12:]

37

Ted - What are women supposed to do about the problem if we are supposed to be waiting for the guys to initiate? I don't see a to-do list here for us....other than just pursue the Lord and trust him that he has my future in his hands. What else is there?

[38. John said the following at 9:42 AM on Jul 12:]

38

I was always encouraged by my parents to wait until I found the right woman to marry. I've heard the same thing from other quarters as well: don't marry someone you can live with -- marry someone you can't live without.

I've yet to find such a lady. Meanwhile, life goes on.

[39. JMarie said the following at 9:54 AM on Jul 12:]

39

Does anyone else get the impression that Boundless just can't win? They write posts directed at men, and they're accused of always beating up on the men. They write posts directed at women, and they're accused of beating up on all the poor women who don't want to be single. Are people taking the time to simply evaluate whether something in a post resonates with their life? If it doesn't, great; one less area to work on.

When I was younger, I jokingly and routinely bashed men without realizing I was hurting my wonderful father (who I am so blessed to have!). It took a wake-up call from my mom to realize that I'd adopted such a hurtful attitude from the culture around me, and I had to consciously work on rejecting that outlook. This post made me realize that I've enjoyed music with the independent, anti-man attitude without really thinking about where it was coming from or how it might shape my attitude towards men. Will I stop listening to those songs? I don't know - but at least now I'll be alert to their message. Taking a little time for introspection isn't a bad thing. However, maybe your attitude towards the opposite sex isn't your problem, and you're facing competely different obstacles to marriage. If a post doesn't hit you where you're at, sit back and ask it's directed at someone else before getting all hurt and confrontational.

[40. Carrie said the following at 10:13 AM on Jul 12:]

40

RE: "don't marry someone you can live with -- marry someone you can't live without."

This old cliché is what drives Christians to be single. We are supposed to be relying on Christ alone for our needs. If we ever feel we need anything else, then we're committing idolatry and that's something we need to repent of. So, again, we are back at Square One.

[41. Robert J Espe said the following at 10:28 AM on Jul 12:]

41

"Why assume that a garment tailored for someone else must have been made to fit you"?
~Frank Herbert

Not all blog posts apply to everyone. I'm a married man, so this one doesn't really apply to me. If you are content being single, it doesn't apply to you. So don't post 40 comments about how bad Boundless is for promoting marriage. Just quietly read, and then go comment on a post about which you have something relevant to contribute.

The point of this post is that a bitter loner is a bad role model. If you like being a loner, you should be a joyful one. Candice also accurately suggested that a bitter loaner is probably bitter because they don't like being a loaner, but cynicism won't solve their problem. So this post was clearly addressed to those who can identify with the bitter loner portrayed in our media.

[42. Mandi said the following at 10:44 AM on Jul 12:]

42

Maria -- I learned in my single season, which lasted a lot longer than I'd expected, too -- that pursuing and relying on the Lord is doing something.

The pursuing part involves using your gifts from Him to do things you're good at and are interested in (which is most likely when you'd be most attractive anyway), being in fellowship with other Christians, and being an active member of the Church. Obviously, it means living in obedience to His commandments, which would keep you out of destructive behaviors that would greatly reduce your chances to marry. I think you'd really be uplifted by the book "Choosing God's Best".

The relying part involves trusting your matchmaking to the best Matchmaker there is, without knowing, or needing to know, the how or when.

I once read an explanation of the line in the Lord's Prayer, "Thy will be done", which really gets to the heart of the matter when asking for God's will about anything: "Help me accept that which is difficult and seemingly unbearable or impossible in Your will. Help me, in other words, to desire that which you desire."

[43. Mandi said the following at 10:44 AM on Jul 12:]

43

Hope -- the attitudes and behaviors alluded to by Mike Theemling are "all our fault". Those are our choices, not men's.

[44. Captain Sensible said the following at 10:46 AM on Jul 12:]

44

Boundless "can't win" because it is trying to have one foot in both camps:
The "Singleness is a gift and you just need to wait and trust and when the time is right, God will land your spouse in your lap" camp.
Or the "Singleness is not a gift, but there is a rare gift of celibacy given to a few to accommodate Kingdom work that would be incompatible with a spouse and family. For the vast majority of singles however this does not apply, and so protracted singleness is actually not 'God's will', but a result of a combination of factors. These include the above wrong teaching that encourages passivity and prolonged adolescence amongst men, and the simple mathematical fact that there are more single Christian women than there are men, and churches are neglecting to address this problem" camp.
Until Boundless decides which teaching is right, and which is wrong, (and there is no way to reconcile these diametrically opposed views) they are just adding to the muddle instead of "bringing focus" to it.
For those that are interested in this subject, may I suggest they read Debbie Maken's book: "Getting Serious About Getting Married: Rethinking the Gift of Singleness".

[45. nikki said the following at 11:15 AM on Jul 12:]

45

Just a reiteration that Boundless usually gets more complaints from the male population who seem to think they are "bashed" more than the women.

People, come on. Not every article can address every facet of dating-and-Christianity. On the contrary, each article generally focuses on a small aspect or issue within the whole. That's what this article does. I didn't feel like it was directed at women...rather the intent that I observed was that the hook-up/divorce culture breeds sadness, anger, regret and bitterness. Who can argue with that??

Every single time there is a post about relationships, there are multitudes of singles who think they are being "bashed" for being unmarried. Stop being so sensitive and don't think every little article is a personal attack on your life. This article is largely talking about the environment of despair corresponding to a "free-love" style of culture. The last sentence was a little off, I think (only God can allay fears and make life joyful) but it is NOT the point. Please do our authors the fundamental honor of addressing the point of their articles.

[46. Esther said the following at 11:15 AM on Jul 12:]

46

I find myself amused at the back and forth of accusations here. Though a woman, I would say that posts on Boundless lean slightly more towards exhorting men to grow up and take action. Which may be appropriate. And a wake up call to women is also appropriate. I would venture to remind all of us that a rebuke that stings probably has some truth in it. At 5'2", if someone accused me of being "too tall" I'd fall down laughing, not get all defensive.

Why is it that, as Christians, we refuse to let ourselves be seen as vulnerable and human? Why do we have to strut around our "independence" all the time, and insist we can do it on our own? I try to be open with my friends and family about my desire to be married, but only as a passing comment. Then we talk about all the richness of life as I'm living it now. I have many people who are in prayer with me for future relationships, as well as current ministry, work and family issues. I don't live perfectly- sometimes I obsess on marriage, but I try to be open and accountable about my struggles, in the hope that contemporaries, as well as younger sisters will be encouraged to pursue God's will (either married or single) in a humble, honest way. If we girls believe that guys are looking for someone dumb and fun (or sassy and independent), and try to fit that model, we are being untrue to ourselves and unfair to the guys. Not that anyone really cares, but as a word of encouragement to those others waiting and wondering: after over a year of nary a date, I have two in the next few days. Both good Christian men that I am interested in getting to know. Now it's just up to God to sort out which (if either) is ready to pursue a focused, intentional relationship. In a setting where "courtship" (as presented on Boundless) is a foreign concept, this should be interesting.

[47. John said the following at 11:27 AM on Jul 12:]

47

Carrie,

I didn't mean when I wrote

"don't marry someone you can live with -- marry someone you can't live without"

that one should make one's spouse an object of idolatrous worship.

I can live without her just fine, and have been doing just that all my life.

All I meant was that I haven't found anyone I really want to get married to.

[48. Irene M. said the following at 11:33 AM on Jul 12:]

48

Interesting article, but I am rather confused about your complaints over "Before He Cheats" and "U + Ur Hand". Isn't anger a legitimate and understandable response to infidelity and sexual harrassment?

[49. Christine said the following at 11:38 AM on Jul 12:]

49

I'm not one to promote "man-bashing" because I am blessed to have two amazing men in my life - my dad and my brother. Growing up, I also had my great-uncle and my grandfather. I enjoy talking to my pastor or other men at church. But, years of singleness and frustration have given me some of the bitterness towards relationships. I'm tired of things not working out and, frankly, it's easier sometimes to flaunt my independance and try to convince myself that I have no need for a man. It isn't because I hate men; it's to keep my heart from getting broken again, to keep myself from hoping for what seems impossible.

Guys, I'm sorry to say, but those of you who are God fearing and have the best of intentions may have to work hard to prove yourselves and win the trust of those who, like myself, have been emotionally exhausted. I'm tired of hoping for someone to win my heart. It seems hopeless most days. For me, trying to be confident in my independance is a coping mechanism, not a hatred for men.

[50. EmmaLee said the following at 12:13 PM on Jul 12:]

50

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him and he shall direct your paths." - Proverbs 3:5

I always turn to this verse when I have a difficult decision to make, or when I'm in a situation I don't want to be in. Just some food for thought.

And now for my biased opinion in response to Carrie's comment.

Carrie said:

"RE: "don't marry someone you can live with -- marry someone you can't live without."

This old cliché is what drives Christians to be single. We are supposed to be relying on Christ alone for our needs. If we ever feel we need anything else, then we're committing idolatry and that's something we need to repent of. So, again, we are back at Square One."

Saying that you need your spouse is not committing idolatry. It is acknowledging that Christ is providing for your needs through that person. God crafted my spouse and I for each other. So when I turn to my husband and he comes through for me, it is because God gave him the understanding and abilities that I needed. Not because my husband could do it in his own strength.
I know that some people who could live without their spouses still have happy marriages. I know some people try to follow this and get stuck being single. I personally have married a man that I can't live without. So did my mother. So did her mother. Which is why I am biased towards waiting for the person you can't live without. The problem with this is that some people think following this means waiting for the guy who meets a list of qualities and traits. My husband pretty much matched nothing that I was looking for. Yet whenever he was gone I felt like a chunk of me was missing. It turns out that God quite often provides for us in ways we never expected. Which is why, in reference to the scripture listed above, I try to focus on the "lean not on your own understanding" part. It's hard to do, but often my own understanding is generally what hinders me from reaching Gods will.

[51. lewsta said the following at 12:14 PM on Jul 12:]

51

As I read the post and responses, I was amused...yes, there IS an overly sensitive strain running through many of the responses..perhaps some chord of reality has struck home in some cases. The post plainly addresses the destructiveness of today's "hookup" culture which preaches the "joys" (yeah, right....) of the trashification of healthy relationships in favour of instant pleasure. As to women remaining single for longer than they had ever thought they would---I know its a tired cliche, but the traits described in Proverbs 31 are great ones to cultivate. Do you look upon the well being of others rather than sitting in your apartment crying in your beer over the lack of "dates"? Do you make sure everyone else around you is "having a good time"? Trust me, as a single and still searching male, I look for these sorts of things. A women inturned is NOT one whom anyone might "marry well". As to the issue of men remaining in adolescence for far too long, clearly another cultural disease...and one against which we men must get aggressive, first in our own lives. I loved the comment made by one woman about living her life as best she can, wondering when some godly man will pop round to "interrupt" her, which she thinks would be just fine. Trouble is, and I've fallen victim to this far too often, we men have bought the lie that we ought not interrupt the seeminly satisfactory life of an eligible woman. I love what Douglas Wilson states in his book Her Hand in Marriage....that we men NEED to interrupt those lives, else we'll never "find" HER. If being single is what she desires, then well---that will be manifest soon enough, we can close that chapter, turning the page for the next. Personally, I LOOK for a woman who lives life fully, seems basically content, is involved in healthy relationships with different sorts of people.

Regarding the phenomenon of the seemingly long odds against success in "the search"--I've often thought that church leadership (pastors, elders, older heads of families) need to take seriously our needs as singles to the point they actively get to know us as individuals, and, as they travel about for regional, national, even international conferences, meetings, etc, actively make enquiry on our behalf. I keep hearing of hordes of wonderful, godly women who desire their husbands, sooner rather than later....but where ARE they? In my own church, there is precisely ONE unmarried female over the age of 18---who just last month graduated high school. None of the others are even old enough to drive yet. Uhm....no likely situations here. So, HOW can I learn of these large numbers of eligible prospects unless someone keep watch on my behalf? And who better than church leadership? Boundless get into matchmaking? No, I rather think not. Boundless do not know me---nor any of the Ladies who post here. How can they possibly assess who might be suitable for whom? But if MY pastor, who does know me, would talk to your pastor, who knows you well, perhaps the great gulf of the unknown might be bridged. At least it would not fail for lack of trying!!

[52. Patricia said the following at 12:23 PM on Jul 12:]

52

I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with delaying marriage for a reasonable period. The simple fact is more women today pursue graduate education or other opportunities. Is this selfish? I currently am in a PhD program and while I want to get married, I also believe God desires me to continue in my studies. Also, some studies have suggested that people who marry after 22 I believe have more stable marriages. I certainly don't think marrying in the mid 20s is too early-but at the same time there is no need for everyone to pair off in college or even high school.

[53. Ted Slater said the following at 12:46 PM on Jul 12:]

53

Patricia -- I agree that there's nothing wrong with "delaying marriage for a reasonable period." While some 18-year-olds are entirely ready to enter into marriage, it may be best for most to delay a few years before they tie the knot.

At the same time, research shows that there is no benefit in delaying marriage past about 27 years old. Just as those who marry "young" have their set of difficulties, those who marry "older" have their set of difficulties. The "sweet spot," according to research, is somewhere between 23-27 for most people.

As I have to frequently add, I intend no condemnation for those singles older than 27. I married at 36, and though many of my reasons for delaying marriage were rooted in the sins of selfishness, indecisiveness and immaturity, I'm grateful that I married the woman I did at the time that I did. I need to add that we're not in the "marriage mandate" camp either, as some are fond of saying; we don't require our readers to marry in a timely manner "or else" you'll become the object of God's disfavor.

I'm just saying that for most it's a good idea not to put off marriage for too long; God created us to marry relatively early in our lives, and pushing that off can have negative consequences. We want to see our readers blessed, and experience as few of those "negative consequences" as possible.

[54. BDB said the following at 1:29 PM on Jul 12:]

54

EmmaLee wrote:

>>My husband pretty much matched nothing that I was looking for. Yet whenever he was gone I felt like a chunk of me was missing.<<

This is a very good starting point for my comment. I think that a lot of single people aren't nearly as "independent" as they'd like to believe. What I see is that people restrict their lives to what they are good at - and reject everything else. This makes them feel strong and independent. But it also limits them.

For example, we've all heard how communication is imortant to marriage. The most important part of communication is...vocabulary. When two people read the same books, they expand their shared vocabulary and make communication easier.

So, ladies, say you're most comfortable with going to lunch or dinner and drinks. Perhaps you've decided that since you've finished college, you no longer need to read non-fiction books, you'd rather use your non-work time to only have "fun."

Then one day an intellectual guy shows some interest in you, and he gives you a book. If you thank him and put it on the shelf, never to be read, you've just ended the relationship. He will conclude that you are not interested in him, because all his intellectual friends read books and discuss them; that's the basis for getting to know each other.

On the other hand, if you decide to try reading the book, you might actually discover that you like something new! Even better, you may find that he was paying attention to you and picked out something you would like. But you'll never know that unless you step outside your comfort zone and try something new.

Everyone I know who is successfully married talks about how their spouse can do things that they aren't good at. At some point along the line they had to step out of their comfort zone. For pretty much all the single people I know, they routinely reject ideas or suggestions for activities that are outside their comfort zone.

I'm not talking about trying different types of tequila here. Well, maybe I should. I know women who have organized their routine in such a way that 100% of their social activities include alcohol. They don't know how to, say, volunteer at a soup kitchen. And they're not willing to try.

But the same thing goes for guys. I had to avoid bursting out laughing once after a ballet performace...as I passed three couples where the girl was excitedly asking the guy, "So, what did you think?" At least an acceptable response is, "It's like a martial art, only with costumes like a play."

[55. Jessica said the following at 3:41 PM on Jul 12:]

55

BDB: "Everyone I know who is successfully married talks about how their spouse can do things that they aren't good at. At some point along the line they had to step out of their comfort zone. For pretty much all the single people I know, they routinely reject ideas or suggestions for activities that are outside their comfort zone."

I'm not sure how big of a pool of friends you're drawing this from, but it seems to me to be a gross generalization that single people are single because they reject new things. I'm terminally single (and would like not to be!) and I delight in trying new things, just as many of my other single friends do. In fact, I just had a conversation with a single Christian girlfriend of mine that it would be ideal to meet a man who was passionate about his interests (however different they are from mine) and who I could expose to my interests and as exposes me to his. I don't think I'm alone in that view.

In the past year or two, I've done many things that made me uncomfortable: moving across the country by myself, learning to ski, going to a party alone, taking painting lessons even though I am not very artistic, starting medical school and doing things very outside of my comfort zone like dissecting a cadaver and performing a rectal exam, etc. etc. I don't think I'm single because I will be unable to leave my comfort zone with a potential mate. And I don't think I'm in the minority. I rather think that extended singleness forces people to do things on their own that they might dread, and also that single people often have the time and freedom to try out things like new hobbies and traveling alone that they might not have done if they'd married young.

I really think you've missed the mark completely.

[56. Melissa said the following at 4:58 PM on Jul 12:]

56

Carrie said:
RE: "don't marry someone you can live with -- marry someone you can't live without."

This old cliché is what drives Christians to be single. We are supposed to be relying on Christ alone for our needs. If we ever feel we need anything else, then we're committing idolatry and that's something we need to repent of. So, again, we are back at Square One.
-------------------------------------

Carrie, you're right, we are to rely upon Christ alone for our needs. Christ alone provides our life, salvation, etc...however we were not made to be "Lone Rangers". We were made for relationships.

Ultimately, the relationship with God is the most important and sustains us. But God in his grace has provided the means of earthly relationships to provide for our other needs. We do have needs that God fulfills through other people.

Marriage does fulfill many needs in one's life. However, even if one is not married (and I am not) God wants us to have relationships with others--parents, family, friends, co-workers, other believers, etc... Why do you think the Bible spends so much time focusing on relationships--marriage of course(Ephesians 5 and others), but also parent/child (Ephesians 6), slave/master (Ephesians 6). Also the precedent in Scripture of Christ sending out the disciples in pairs--we need each other!

So, whether you are married or not, don't fall into the lie that Satan has told us that we need no one. A lone ranger in his/her Christian walk stands a great chance of being attacked from the enemy and from giving into their own sinful desires (we need accountability and godly counsel).

[57. BDB said the following at 5:30 PM on Jul 12:]

57

Jessica wrote:

>>I'm not sure how big of a pool of friends you're drawing this from, but it seems to me to be a gross generalization that single people are single because they reject new things.<<

It's less than 200, so it's probably not a perfect statistical sample.

But from a case-study perspective, it's a few dozen couples and individuals I've observed; more than enough to persuade me. And if I knew you personally, it would be very easy to arrange a dinner so that you could hear their story straight from them.

Medical school sounds like a good place to meet an intellectual match. Particularly if you're open to trying new things with people you meet.

Your mileage may vary.

[58. BDB said the following at 6:18 PM on Jul 12:]

58

Jessica wrote:

>>I really think you've missed the mark completely.<<

You know what? I'm going to go ahead and provide two real-life examples from my married friends that they cited.

In one case, the guy was big into target shooting. The girl hated guns. But she consented to go shooting with him once. As he was discussing me that he was thinking of proposing, he actually pointed to her being a good sport and being willing to do something she hated as an example of why he respected her.

Second example: The guy rebuilds cars as a hobby. She agreed to go with him to the junk yard to get parts. Way outside her comfort zone. Now that they're married, he still rebuilds cars and sells them - a hobby that pays for itself. She was willing to go once to understand his hobby better.

Now, I've personally observed people who refused to do simple things like that. All I'm saying is that it's good to try new things, and when someone invites you to do something that's important to them that you don't like or understand, it might be worth it to go anyway.

[59. victoria said the following at 6:45 PM on Jul 12:]

59

xeres- i mean singleness as a gift like being financially independent or being really smart. i think God can give us the gift of singleness, smartness or money to better serve him in a specific way - but no, not as a spiritual gift.

[60. Joseph said the following at 8:27 PM on Jul 12:]

60

I think another important piece of advice for singles men and women is to be approachable and even vulnerable. If your single its highly likely you haven't met you spouse yet. Therefore your spouse is someone you don't know yet. So get to know all kinds of people and don't limit yourself.

Get to know people outside of your clique and don't get to caught up in their quirks and what not.

Seeking a spouse is a risk and you will have some bad experiences, just like when you look for a job you are bound to get turned down. But keep churning.

[61. Andrew (tlw) said the following at 9:36 PM on Jul 12:]

61

Mike,
I tend to agree with you and think there are a number of causes. Lengthy qualifying and training times for most jobs has, I think, adversely impacted men more than women. Young, broke students just don’t cut it with women intent on seeking soul mates. Women in their twenties look to date older, more mature and more established guys, but their inflated expectations (fuelled by unrealistic chick flicks) still make any long term relationships problematic.
Men are of course not exempt from their own issues, like being in debt, sticking with dead-end jobs and refusing to acknowledge the need to grow up. But … my suspicion is that young men faced with expectations of character and maturity that only come from a lifetime of experience, just give up and don’t bother trying.
I know this sounds like I’m painting men as victims here … but I don’t blame younger men for staying single. Without the means to earn a steady income, with inflation making housing unaffordable, and same aged women eyeing off older (often recycled) men, what is a younger guy to do?

[62. Adam said the following at 11:40 PM on Jul 12:]

62

This isn't really entirely on topic but, in my personal opinion based on my own life experience, I do not feel that it is worth it to be single and alone. I grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere and never really had many friends, and certainly never had any girlfriends. When I think back on my past, I never really made any memories worth keeping. The best memories I have are from college, which wasn't very long ago, but is still long gone and all of those people have either moved on, or in some cases, have even died. When I look at married couples, I think, man they actually get to do stuff with someone important. It doesn't matter what they're doing, they're at least doing something with someone else and can have a good time. I've seen a lot of movies by myself, taken a lot of hikes by myself, and have done pretty much everything by myself, and none of it has really made life more exciting.

Basically my own personal argument from my own personal point of view is that life isn't worth living alone. Yes you can live life alone and survive quite well, but is it adventurous? Is it something worth remembering or is it something you think others will respect? It is my wish that many of you that are still single do marry so you can enjoy and share memories together and live life abundantly.

Also, as a side note. Do any of the other men feel that as your strongest desire for marriage is for something to quench that awful desire to fornicate? It is irritable to see non-Christian men play women for nothing but sex. What's worse is that a lot of women reciprocate and go along with these men! This might not seem important to some people, but other than companionship, it is sex that I desire. Forcing to crush my urges and remain a virgin and clean in a hyper sensual country where it is very difficult to find an attractive person who isn't a virgin is a very challenging task, and the temptation to fornicate is staggering. I'm not quoting any sources or implying that my information is reliable or accurate, but aren't men most sexual charged during their late teens and early 20s? Most non-Christian men during this age have pretty active sexual lives. A lot of the Christian brothers I met in college have abstained from sex and talk about how they look forward to marriage so that they can finally have sex. Ok I said that pretty bluntly, and there is a lot more substance to us guys than, I want sex, but I was just wondering how the older men address this issue and can give some sort of comfort to us younger men who probably don't have a hope in marrying for several more years, if at all.

[63. Andrew (tlw) said the following at 11:50 PM on Jul 12:]

63

Ted,

You may be surprised that I agree with on the idea of a “sweet spot” for getting married. Except it often doesn’t happen. I worked full-time from 18-25, and probably 75% of the eligible women in my church who married in this time later separated and divorced. From 25-30 I was a college student, the female students I knew were career focussed and not interested in relationships. One gf even gave up on our relationship in favour of going to bible college in another state.

It was not until my 30s that women in their twenties actually took me seriously as mate material. This occurred concurrently with moving from a resort town in a tourist area where I had lived my entire life and attended college, to a large city. I may not be the most perceptive of people and my desire to marry hadn’t changed, but the people around me certainly had, and I maintain to this day that cultural influences of that resort area adversely affect women’s (and men’s) perceptions of what constitutes healthy relationships.

Whilst my female college college friends were busily spurning men and chasing a career, the one college student in my circle of friends who announced her engagement and got married on graduation was treated as a pariah, and scorned by her female friends for “throwing her life away.”
Personally, I envied her blessed good fortune. Marriage does not make me whole, nor does it meet all my needs. But when the longing does not go away, you cry out to God, turn to busyness and activity, and anything that will drown the unmet desires of your heart.

The continuing slanging match between the genders about who is right and wrong and who is to blame for being single “too long” does nothing to promote understanding. Whilst many men might be deemed too immature to qualify as marriage material, many women are as well. Acknowledging that we are all imperfect people will help us progress towards achieving balance and proportion in how we encourage singles.

I think that BDB also makes a good point on this: showing an interest in someone’s else’s hobby or passion can take you (pleasantly) unexpected places.

[64. Mike Theemling said the following at 2:13 AM on Jul 13:]

64

Great postings as usual, no matter how many times this topic is brought up. It always seems to bring out lively discussion.

Brittany you said,

"I have delayed it...but you know why, because those I have dated were not who God had for me. Many of us are single because we adhere to standards; we won't budge just for companionship."

I agree that we should keep some standards (marry only a Believer, don't marry someone with traits you find intolerable, someone with serious character flaws, etc). But I wonder though, how many guys you've turned down just because they didn't meet an ideal that a very small (if any) percentage of Christian men could reasonably meet. That's kind of what the "Cost of Delaying Marriage" article was talking about.

To be fair though, I think that many guys too also hold out for an unrealistic ideal. Problem is that women have much less time for holding out than men do. Almost always an older man will marry a younger women (average 3-4 years but not uncommon to be 7+ years [Ted Slater married someone 12 years his junior]) but very rarely will it be the other way around.

Robert J Espe you said,

"Candice also accurately suggested that a bitter loaner is probably bitter because they don't like being a loaner, but cynicism won't solve their problem. "

Great thought and one I overall agree with. Spelling is off (should be "l-o-n-e-r") but still a good thought.

Lindsey,

"And thirdly, i can't help but wonder if marrying young is the reason for a 50% divorce rate."

Correlation does not equal causation. However, to answer your question, if anything, just the opposite is occuring. The mean age of first marriages is getting higher (late 20's, almost early now) yet the divorce rate is still fairly high. Although there is evidence to indicatethat those who marry very young (under 20) do face a higher divorce risk, that does not address those in the early to mid 20's.

Andrew (tlw),

Thank you for your comments. I didn't put them in this thread, but I posted elsewhere from a book I read (can't remember the title, but Boundless [Candice Watters specifically] reviewed the book) that since women now are both capable of being independent financially and socially that the main criteria for a husband (other than appearance) is not so much anymore how well he can provide but rather how much of an emotional "fit" he is (i.e. the "soulmate" concept). Furthermore, the soulmate emphasis is much more prevalent and intense among women than it is among men.

And even Christian women (and men) are not immune from this problem. We just repackage and rename the soulmate into "God's choice" which essentially is the same thing: some perfect, complementary person for our lives which God Himself has chosen for us (and hence means we ought to reject all other prospects).

[65. violette said the following at 3:21 AM on Jul 13:]

65

i agree with Joseph.
too many great gals are being strung along by immature dudes! not right. i say stand up and be counted! for the ladies, the male-bashing attitude will take us nowhere! these men are God's children and candidates for heaven too.
peace!

[66. J-Twinkle said the following at 9:26 AM on Jul 13:]

66

Mike,

I agree that women have become more financially independent and socially independent. But I also believe because some of us have bought into a worldly way of thinking about how to use our gifts and talents and how to exert influence in society by denying their femininity and trying to be more like men by not using their intuition, understanding their ability to influence situations to empower others, but completely shutting down their feelings.

I don't buy into the soulmate theory because marriage is a choice. No one twists your hands or arms and says that you must enter a covenant with another human being for the rest of your life. I believe, however, that we must be honest with God and ourselves about our perceptions of what an ideal mate is and really allow God to peel away the immaturity and selfishness in some of our standards. Especially when it comes to our makeup as men and women. Just because men by nature are logical, competitive and goal oriented, doesn't mean that somehow that exempts them from managing and dealing with his emotions. Just because women are nurturing, influential, intuitive, and emotional creatures doesn't mean that we are exempt from putting those characteristics in line with truth and the facts.

I also believe that statistics, unfortunately are things that can be used to pretty much argue anything nowadays. So, let's just stop hiding behind those things and really be truthful about what we think and feel. Let's give others the grace and love to freely express those opinions and feelings without bashing them and disrespecting them.

I think the point is that youth=immaturity and age=wisdom when it comes to why people delay marriage. Let's be real here: those common perceptions are never correct 100% of the time. Why? Because immaturity and wisdom involve several things that have nothing to do with age(such as the choice to grow up and change perspectives, the choice to accept correction and make changes). The Bible has shown plenty of examples of older people who made foolish choices and/or acted foolishly, and also has examples of great leadership and strength of character by the very young. (Aaron and King Josiah are examples).

When we strive to grow and mature as children of God individually on all levels of our lives, stop complaining about the immaturity and inconsistency in other people and start interceding for them, and stop looking at the problem based on our own individual needs and desires but accurately see issues from love and God's wisdom, then we will see change.

I Thessalonians 4:11-12
11Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you, 12so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody

[67. Patricia said the following at 12:42 PM on Jul 13:]

67

I don't think, however, that being married makes one more mature. Often, I've see some immature people marry young-and often pay for it later when they struggle as they grow older. I just don't buy that people who dely marriage are delaying adulthood. Certainly there are various responsibilities that are legitimate avenues of ministry outside of the famil that both men and women can engage in. And often areas that are "worldy" such as business, academia, popular cultre, etc could benefit greatly from Christian witness. Obviously this things cannot become idol, but I don't see delaying children to serve God in other areas as "denying feminity" or being "worldly" or ignoring Biblical examples. Having kids and being married is a ministry, but only one and not the be all end all ministry women can and should engage in.

[68. ptschett said the following at 4:48 PM on Jul 13:]

68

Re: not settling -- for some reason I'm reminded of the article "Faith For The Man He'll Become" from a few months back.

Re: finding someone -- on my bad days I wish I'd been a lot more aggressive about dating than I (and my friends!) thought I was in college. I never dreamed that my first dating relationship, just when I turned 21, would still be my most recent one over 5 years after its end. If you think it's hard enough in a church that has a population of 20-somethings, wait till you land in a church where you ARE that population :)

[69. Candice Watters said the following at 8:51 AM on Jul 14:]

69

Captain Sensible, I'm perplexed that you think Boundless believes both in the widespred "gift of singleness" and a limited "gift of celibacy." Although you wouldn't know it from some of the comments on our blog, the arictles we publish and the blog posts we write consistently fall into the second category. We believe a minority of believers do have the ability, thanks to a spiritual gift, to remain celibate and exchange the benefits of marriage (sex, companionship, children) for the benefits of devoted kingdom service.

We wholeheartedly endorsed Debbie Maken's book, having run both an article by her as well as a review by me. (Getting to Marriage: What You Can Do, http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001254.cfm )

Do you have examples of places where we've muddied the waters on this issue? (not including comments from our readers; that's a different category)

Also, to the commentor who asserted that their are more Christian single women than there are men, he must have missed my article showing with absolute certainty, that such thinking is a myth. The opposite is true. There are more never-married Christian men than there are women. You can read it for yourself, and explore the studies I cited, here: Plenty of Men to Go around ( http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001325.cfm ).

[70. Captain Sensible said the following at 4:02 PM on Jul 14:]

70

Candice - I appreciate your reply, but it is problematic. The problem as I see it is twofold.
1) Never are the comments which spread -- and perpetuate -- the wrong teaching on singleness either addressed or corrected. This is in contrast to many other threads where quite often Ted Slater will step in. Therefore, sadly, any benefit from the initial posting is soon then lost in a haze of confusion.
Boundless appears to be a widely read forum for young Christian singles. As such, it could do much to help right the wrong teaching that is so prevalent in our churches today, but it appears to be to be abdicating its responsibilities very seriously. False teaching is, as you know, taken very seriously in the Bible. If you provide a forum for the spreading of this false teaching, I do not think you are blameless and can just hold your hands up and say "Well, we didn't write that comment". No, but you chose to give it a public platform without correcting the faults in it. Faults that you yourself actually criticised in a post not so long ago, when you appeared bewildered by the wrong thinking that your blog actually helps to spread! I would be very interested to hear the answer that you are intending to give the Lord about this.
2) The second problem I see is the platform you give to Carolyn McCulley. Granted, she usually writes fairly innocuous articles that no one can really disagree with, but in publicising this writer you are also publicising her book which is full of wrong teaching about "Esteeming the gift" ie. singleness. Her blog too, often contains unhelpful links and materials that again perpetuate the wrong thinking.
I would like to see Boundless stand firm against all this wrong teaching. The internet and blogging is a very new medium and as such I appreciate that we are all learning. But to continue to post unhelpful comments -- without bothering to correct them -- is biblically inexcusable, in my opinion. In my mind it is akin to a Pastor giving his talk in church, and then going to get his lunch while his talk is then thrown open to "comments". Would that be right? Would that be helpful to the congregation? Or is there a danger that they will end up leaving in a more confused state than when they came in?
Regarding your point that there are more single Christian men than women, I am curious: When was the last time you went to church? Sorry, but it is mind-bogglingly obvious that women outnumber men in our churches by a significant margin and I seem to recall that there were blog postings that refuted your mathematical conclusions at the time that your article was posted.

[71. Ted Slater said the following at 9:50 PM on Jul 14:]

71

Captain Sensible -- you wrote that Carolyn McCulley "usually writes fairly innocuous articles that no one can really disagree with."

I pray you consider what I'm about to write with superhuman humility. Here goes....

I think that sentence I quoted from you identifies your problem precisely. Instead of considering how you and others might benefit from something we publish, you've placed yourself in the role of "critic." Carolyn has written many significantly helpful articles, addressing fear of man, how a single woman might evaluate a single man's "trajectory," how women can attract men through humility, how to graciously tell a guy "no," and the benefit of examining our hearts when we find ourselves responding poorly in difficult situations. Instead of gaining a heart of wisdom through her work, you stand aloof with arms crossed, looking closely for anything about which you disagree. And in the process, you miss a lot of God's blessing. And worse, you may be putting yourself between God's blessing and others.

It doesn't help that you hide behind a pseudonym ("Captain Sensible"), rather than open yourself up to real fellowship.

Listen -- we agree on many things: that "timely" marriage is a good thing, that God has called most of us to enjoy marriage, that the "gift of singleness" is misunderstood by most, that oftentimes the reasons people delay marrying is due to sin (at least in my case), and so on. It's my prayer that you stop the distant condemnation and join the fellowship of believers in extolling the good. Jump in, the water's fine, my friend.

[72. BDB said the following at 10:25 PM on Jul 14:]

72

Captain Sensible wrote:

>>I would like to see Boundless stand firm against all this wrong teaching.<<

Hmmm...let's try another tack.

I vote that Boundless does the opposite of what Captain Sensible wants. My vote should cancel his out, right?

The Boundless blog, as constructed, does an excellent job of putting important ideas on the table. There is a surprisingly wide cross-section of Christianity that has shown up for the discussion. I've never seen Catholics and Calvinists mix it up like this. Most of the Catholics and Calvinists I've asked about this know nothing about each other's beliefs. (By the way, you get a really funny reaction when asking a Catholic if they're Calvinist or Arminian.)

A blog is not "teaching," so there is no "teacher" to correct - just a moderator to keep things civil.

And over the last few months Ted has done a great job of stepping back, moderating more and advocating less.

[73. Captain Sensible said the following at 8:34 AM on Jul 15:]

73

Is it wrong to condemn false teaching, Ted? No doubt even the Pharisees had some good things to say you know…but that didn’t stop Jesus being very frank with them!
I notice how you seem to feel that defending your personal friend, Carolyn McCulley, and condemning my use of a pseudonym, are both more important than addressing my main point?
BDB has addressed it though, and made a good point, saying: “A blog is not ‘teaching’ so there is no ‘teacher’ to correct.”
This is a very fair comment. We are all in the process of working out how best to use blogging for the glory of God (yes, me included!).
My argument is that giving a public platform to enable false teaching to be spread (even if not actually “teaching” itself) is still irresponsible.
Not all blogs feel that they need to give space to comments that are unhelpful. Some have a very strict commenting policy, for the very reason that they don’t want to spread the unhelpful thinking that comes from wrong teaching. In fact, Carolyn McCulley’s policy on comments used to be along those very lines, and actually, I agree with her on that!
But there are double standards on Boundless, because you, Ted, do step in to correct comments at times. Sometimes even on fairly trivial issues.
However you never correct the McCullley-esque type of thinking on "the gift of singleness" which Boundless apparently disagrees with.
Why is that?

[74. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:14 AM on Jul 15:]

74

Captain Sensible you said,

"My argument is that giving a public platform to enable false teaching to be spread (even if not actually “teaching” itself) is still irresponsible."

To be honest, I think this is a fairly weak argument and even a bit naive.

First, it is clear that Boundless allows posts on their blog. Secondly, they've repeatedly said that they post inputs (often with no or little editing) even if they are in disagreement with the author's opinion on the subject. Considering you yourself have posted multiple times I'm sure you are aware that this "platform" exists. Not only that, but that you seem to condone the system; otherwise you wouldn't be posting here.

Most I speculate would agree that if everyone agreed with everything posted it would make for a very boring blog and furthermore would not accomplish one of its goals: the exchange of ideas in a controlled manner. This also would apply if the Boundless staff were to post only comments which were in agreement with them.

Your other argument is focused on "false teaching". The problem is what you consider as "false" another may view as "true" or maybe a grey area with no clear cut answer. In order for you to prove a post made by the author or a commenter is false you must provide sufficient evidence that it is so. Otherwise it still remains an opinion. And frankly, when it comes to most of the posts here, they are very hard to prove absolutely false.

I will say though that your comment regarding past editor intervention is legitimate. Although it did not happen on a regular basis and has diminished in recent months, there were times I thought the editors were "breaking their own rules". Meaning they would post a blog, someone would post a dissenting comment, then the editor would essentially slam him for making it (not simply clarifying their position but essentially saying "you are wrong"). I remember once Ted even put words in someone's mouth replying in a very cynical matter writing "let me finish the sentence for you...". And no one likes having another person put words into their mouth. Fortunately, as BDB points out, such slamming has drastically decreased.

Finlly regarding Carolyn McCulley, I haven't read any of her books (just articles published on Boundless), and don't visit her blog much, but even you admit most of what she writes is "innocuous". I would hope it would be more than such to many readers. Not just innocuous, but beneficial. The point though is that I very rarely (if ever) accept all of one person's teachings/ideas as absolutely true. That is reserved for God alone. I simply read/listen to someone's position, identify what I agree with, what I don't (and why), and then formulate my own conclusions on the matter. Again, unless you can show Carolyn as a whole teaching things which are clearly contrary to the Bible, you cannot dismiss her opinions as "absolutely false".

The only time I had a serious beef with an author that Boundless published is Scott Croft and his "Biblical Dating" ideas. Having heard his speeches in person and read his articles I did not like the fact that he implied his methodology was the only "right" model for finding a spouse and that conventional dating was "wrong". He might say otherwise, but to use the term Biblical in regards to dating does imply that other methods are somehow inferior or less in line with God's will.

Sorry for the length, but thought this might be useful. I would still welcome your comments though, even if they are dissents.

[75. k. said the following at 2:57 PM on Jul 15:]

75

I was surprised to see the comment about 'false teaching.' I always understood that false teaching requires an element of authority, and I seriously question whether Boundless has anything approaching authority--to me, it seems more about facilitating conversation among young believers. At most, I would say they have misguided opinions, not false teaching. (They'd probably say the same of me, which is fine.)

It's reasonable to assume that the readers here are adults capable of forming their own opinions and making their own decisions. Do we need to be cookie-cutter Christians? I noticed that CS later shifted his argument to, "giving a public platform to enable false teaching to be spread (even if not actually “teaching” itself) is still irresponsible." That's ridiculous; Christians should be able to hold some varying opinions and beliefs, and also to discuss them. If Boundless were to start saying that Jesus was a really great guy but got things wrong sometimes, that might concern me. But as it is, I can roll my eyes and go on with life when they start blathering about "working like a man," or global warming, or the importance of marrying and having children young, or other issues that I think they get wrong. They don't agree with me, I don't agree with them, and I don't think it will keep any of us awake nights.

Also, saying that each comment should be evaluated and corrected for "unhelpful thinking"--based on the moderator's opinions--is veering into dangerous Big Brother territory. What if one of the moderators becomes convinced Jesus told us all to be vegans, and immediately started blasting any comment that refers to meat on the grounds that meat eating=false teaching?? Boundless is already a bit heavy-handed with censoring comments, and I really can't see that becoming more so is either warranted or desirable.

[76. NeedACatchyName said the following at 3:00 PM on Jul 15:]

76

Captain Sensible said:
Sorry, but it is mind-bogglingly obvious that women outnumber men in our churches by a significant margin.

Are you basing this conclusion on local observation or statistics? If your area or church is lacking in men, that doesn't mean that all areas and all churches are lacking in men. I'm not too familiar with the situation outside of the United States, so if you live in a different country, I'm afraid I'm probably not knowledgeable about the situation there. But my experience in the U.S. is that the number of Christian men vs. Christian women seems to be more or less equal as a nationwide average (as Candice's research shows), but with wide local variances. So some areas have a high number of Christian men and a low number of Christian women, whereas the situation is reversed in other areas, but if you look at the nationwide average, it all balances out.

Believe it or not, I always thought that there were more men than women in churches because that's how it always was in my area. I was rather shocked when I found this blog to find out that wasn't the case everywhere else. :)

Of course, if you live somewhere other than the U.S. your situation may be different, but keep in mind that the vast, vast majority of Boundless posters are Americans so they'll be posting from the point of view with which they're most familiar.

[77. Jim said the following at 5:06 PM on Jul 15:]

77

I can't help but get irritated when I hear the same women that unceasingly bash men complain that men don't want to marry them.

A woman that bashes men is saying to the world that she believes women are better than men, but because she wants to get married, she will put up with a guy who is "decent" enough to put on her shelf.

For a guy like me, those women are a BIG no-no. In no way will I have anything to do with them.

As to all of you women who complain that you want to be pursued, you are like a fish staring at a worm dangling right in front of you, but you won't bite unless someone else puts it in your mouth for you. It's RIGHT THERE, why not just take it for yourself?

I find myself single at a late stage. I contemplated suicide when I found that I was still single at 25. Obviously I made it past that year, but each day is a struggle to maintain, and being single is certainly NOT a gift. There are men that want to be married, but I don't ever see myself as having that opportunity. I could easily blame women on this, as many women blame men for not being married. But it is only ourselves we have to blame. I would guess that most of the complainers here are overweight, or have some other physical flaw that makes people "undateable". It is really the mindset that only someone fit for a magazine cover is suitable for dating or marriage that is to blame. People turn to God to find someone who will forgive them their physical inadequacy, yet at the same time be physically perfect as well. I really believe that this would turn around most effectively, if communities would do more to get all of the fat people into shape. That is my solution.

[78. KendraW said the following at 9:38 PM on Jul 15:]

78

I definitely agree with being willing to jump out into the waters and try new things. It's part of why my parents got married and why they still enjoy going and doing things together now.

I'm a post-college, still single woman moving to a new city for graduate work this fall. I had the opportunity to have gotten married before I turned eighteen but it definitely would have been the wrong thing. I spent four years at a Christian University without ever being asked out by a Christian guy. I'm okay with this because I trust in God. Two of my cousins, one a speech pathologist and the other a physician's assistant and both in there upper twenties have been praying about their singleness and God has brought wonderful gentlemen into their lives.

One of the things I disagree with is the statement that a girl must hold out for a guy that is more spiritually mature than she is. I've seen it work where the girl was more mature in the beginning and the guy grew into the leadership role. I think that's the point of the article Faith for the Man He'll Become.

I worry that too many times we set our standards way too high for a potential partner. My only set in stone requirements are that he's Christian and male. :D Everything else would fall under preference and those can be altered.

On the other discussion going on, I don't feel that Boundless airing views that are contradictory to their own serves as promoting false teachings. I'm another one grateful for the fact that they allow discussion to take place fairly freely. I like hearing differing points of view which I consider rather refreshing and I can learn from.

Though I still don't think that Before He Cheats falls in as a lone ranger song, it's definitely more about a reaction to infidelity in a relationship, immature maybe, but not crusading for all women to be single and bitter.

[79. Adam said the following at 9:53 PM on Jul 15:]

79

>> I really believe that this would turn around most effectively, if communities would do more to get all of the fat people into shape. <<

There are an excessive amount of fat people in America, and I agree with your blunt, unapologetic approach. However, I do think that that should be for another article as this article's popularity seems to be dwindling.

[80. DannieA said the following at 10:22 PM on Jul 15:]

80

Jim

"I would guess that most of the complainers here are overweight, or have some other physical flaw that makes people "undateable"."

Uh I've run 3 marathons, 6 half marathons and dozens of 5K and 10K races. I'm in my late 20s and still not married. I don't think it would be fair to assume that ALL women who wish they were married were couch potatoes who weigh 300 lbs.

[81. jcs said the following at 10:31 PM on Jul 15:]

81

"being single is certainly NOT a gift. There are men that want to be married, but I don't ever see myself as having that opportunity."

Jim, are you the same "Jim" who wrote this on another thread:

"When you have kids, you can kiss your life goodbye. You are now living only for your kids. One reason I am not married is due to the life ending consequences of having kids."

It's hard to tell on blogs like this, because users don't log in.

I ask this because, in your post, you're insinuating that you can't get married because women don't find you attractive. However, if you're the same person as the other "Jim", your attitudes may have a lot to do with your singleness.

[82. Christine said the following at 9:29 AM on Jul 16:]

82

Jim,
I think that you're a little harsh in your statements. Yes, weight is something that we can (and should) work to control. However, not all single women are struggling with their weight and to insinuate that is to be pretty judgmental.

Also, as a person with a birth defect, I find your statements about other physical flaws that make people undateable to be a little out of line. Yes, I'm sure that there are people who won't date me because of it (you can't hide my "flaw" for long). However, I have dated several guys and none of those relationships ended because of my birth defect. I've only had one guy express any concerns about it. I'm not going to pray for God to change this. I did as a kid and now I feel like this is my thorn. God is powerful enough to change this, but I'm not expecting Him to do so. Please don't judge those of us with physical disabilities. If you're not able or willing to date us, that's fine, but there are people who will and who do. Your lack of attraction does not doom us to a life of singleness.

[83. Melissa said the following at 9:54 AM on Jul 16:]

83

As a young single just beginning to look on the relationship horizon, hopefully this will still make sense.

It sounded to me like the point of the post was to discourage women (yes, women) from letting disparaging views of men ruin their perceptions of how a godly relationship and marriage can be. Just because songs proclaim that men these days all are cheaters and womanizers doesn't mean that it's true nor that a Christian woman should fall into believing that lie.

Maybe I'm being naive here, but I didn't think the point was to say that bad/nonexistent relationships are exclusively a woman's fault. But believing such pervasive lies invites hesitance and bitterness in women whose experience has only been divorce, being degraded, and defrauding relationships.

In point: guys as a species aren't becoming faithful, godly men, and women are buying into the lie that every guy is a loser like so many with whom they've been in contact.

[84. xeres said the following at 11:41 AM on Jul 16:]

84

interesting...it seems that the Church has some sort of schizophenia regarding their view of American Christian women (even Boundless is guilty with this). In regards to problems with dating/courtship whether it's the DTR, the situations that occur in the relationship or break-ups, women are portrayed as victims and guys are the source of drama. Think about it. Things seems to go wrong when the guy makes a mistake or something like. However, when dealing with difficulty of upholding Christian virtues and values, it is the Christian women who ended getting bashed. I mean, women are often picked on dealing with issues of modesty, the disregard of family and human life, and my favs the shortage of men in churches or the church being too feminine. I know that's a big of a assertion but this is what's really going on. What does anyone think?

[85. Jim said the following at 4:09 PM on Jul 16:]

85

In no way was I judging anyone. I was simply stating what seems to me to be the viewpoint of many "christian" singles. There are too many people that aren't willing to accept anything other than what society tells them is beautiful. What unfortunately gets overlooked is how much in common men and women have in this. What else gets overlooked is that many, but not all, of these people could change themselves. They could change themselves and get exactly what they want, but instead become furious at the rest of the world for not changing to suit them.

I was just trying to get at the point that were people to look in at themselves more often when they have problems instead of trying to blame everyone else, we wouldn't see so many people having this problem.

[86. Christine said the following at 9:32 PM on Jul 16:]

86

Thanks for the clarification, Jim. I can agree with what you said in it. =)

[87. Robin said the following at 11:22 PM on Oct 14:]

87

Candace: I read your article "Plenty of Men to Go Around," and am curious if you also got the racial/ethnic breakdown of Barna's data.

I ask as a single Christian black woman, age 32. I'm active in church ministry service, attractive, well-domesticated (i.e. I cook, clean, sew, crochet, etc.), well-educated and am ready to be married. Have been for years, but have never received a proposal. The last relationship I was in ended two years ago with a Christian man who, by his own admission, strung me along for two years, leading me we were on the road to marriage.

Being a wonderful wife and a good mother are my two greatest aspirations in life. My parents are wonderful role models for marriage (married at age 22 for 35 years next August), and my younger brother married last year at age 27.

What would you have to say to scores of marriage-minded, Christian black women like me, knowing the challenges of the availability of "quality" marriageable men that do exist for us?

[1. DannieA said the following at 1:56 PM on Jul 11:]

1

I agree with the blog post pretty much.

I also would like to throw out something for people to think about.

For a long time, violence towards women, cheating on wives etc. were problems that were not looked down on but congregations and people turned a blind eye too "boys will be boys" type of mentality.

I think part of the reason this mentality became popular is because only in the past previous years did these things become NOT okd to do because women are important as well. Even in churches i'm sad to say....a man cheats....hush hush huhs, however, don't catch a woman cheating, you're branded for life!

I hope this trend changes and we grow in a manner than women and men are created to be in honorable relationships with each other.

(on a side note: I love "Before He Cheats" song, that's great!)

Have a wonderful day

[2. Mike Theemling said the following at 2:20 PM on Jul 11:]

2

If you haven't read this article already, I would recommend The Cost of Delaying Marriage by Danielle Crittenden. It speaks frankly and in my opinion quite accurately about modern day women's attitudes, including Christian women.

[3. Mandi said the following at 2:55 PM on Jul 11:]

3

Candice,

Unfortunately I know the truth of this post from personal experience.

But how do you suggest a girl in such a circumstance, before or even after meeting Mr. Right, can help beat down that wall built up around her heart after years of being let down and fed up, learning to be self-sufficient, tiring of the pining for love, companionship, and babies?

I personally would benefit much to get some perspective on this. Thanks.

[4. DannieA said the following at 3:11 PM on Jul 11:]

4

Read the article Mike

I think the two extremes are off...there should be a balance.

My parents who were married at 19 were always afraid I'd get married too soon and not have a solid job and follow the harsh financial road they went. They don't wish they never married, they just wish they would have finished college first.

And as my mother says in spanish

'better to be single then to be a bad marriage'

so there is some sense in delaying marriage, just not extremely.

[5. BDB said the following at 3:54 PM on Jul 11:]

5

Ha - just thought of a funny tie-in to the title of this topic and the "attitude" portrayed.

In Spanish, "Tonto" means "Stupid."

So, the Lone Ranger could have worn a t-shirt that said, "I'm with stupid."

Which, of course reminds me of the Far Side cartoon, wherein the Lone Ranger, in his old age, finally learns what Kemosabe really means...
"an Apache expression for a horse's rear end."

Here's a whole list with "attitude."

http://www.write101.com/kemosabe.htm

[6. Maggie said the following at 4:12 PM on Jul 11:]

6

Let's not forget as well that a lot of today's 20somethings have experienced our own parents' relationships collapsing. I can say for myself that it is difficult to have a positive attitude towards love when I have been the shoulder for my own mother when her husband cheated. But for the grace of God, I would be just as bitter as the women in those songs, and probably more so.

That said, I'm not sure where the author gets the idea that such attitudes were unthinkable in pop music 10 years ago. Anyone remember Courtney Love? And Alanis Morissette's Jagged Little Pill went platinum in 1996, with wayyyyy more attitude the Avril can ever aspire to.

[7. Jamie Morton said the following at 4:15 PM on Jul 11:]

7

When I saw this headline, I was hopeful. I thought that maybe the post would be about how important it is to rely on someone (i.e. God), with the implication that none of us are capable of going it alone.

And I suppose that, indirectly, that's probably what the post is getting at. But frankly, I don't have the patience to do more than skim through any more articles about how unholy modern women are for not pairing themselves off (and being angry at the assumption that they should have to). It feels like beating a dead horse, to me.

[8. Joseph said the following at 4:43 PM on Jul 11:]

8

One part of the problem is that men just aren't maturing as early as they used to. Adolescence for men is extended until about age 25. This leaves mature women with too few compatible mates.

As a "mature" godly man myself I have a strong desire to be married but my voice is not heard in the midst of all the men who are not ready. It drives me crazy when a guy strings a great girl along with no promise of commitment.

Then again when most men now are getting the benefits of marriage (i.e. sex, companionship) without the actual covenant then whats the incentive to get married.

To all the godly holy men out there keep plugging along. We are the salt of the earth.

[9. Jennifer Thomas said the following at 4:44 PM on Jul 11:]

9

Once again the rhetoric comes out of hiding. Congratulations, Boundless, on making at least one reader feel like a marginalized Christian adult because she is still single at 30. As has been discussed here almost ad nauseam, “delaying marriage” is something many (most?) of us would not choose as our preferred way in life, yet it is the scenario, the very life situation, in which we find ourselves.

Did I picture myself single this late in life when I was growing up? I and likely most of the unmarried readership offer a resounding “No.” Am I bitter about this (as the quoted blog might suggest)? Again, no, though it can be a struggle, at times daily, to find contentment in my life as God has given it to me.

I want to rejoice in all things, including the single situation in which I find myself, yet I time and again get the sense that Boundless, and to a much larger part, the Church as a whole, shakes its finger at those without wedding rings and says chidingly, “Why aren’t you married?” Rather than seeing us as “incomplete” or blaming us for seemingly forestalling our adult responsibilities (is marriage truly one of these?!?), let married Christians see their single brethren as assets to the Body of Christ. Support and encourage Christians who are single rather than tear us down.

The author includes a quote that says that the longings of singles “could be largely satisfied by marrying well.” This is faulty thinking; a mindset that works to only create heartache and loneliness. This kind of idea puts unattainable and unfair expectations on another human being to provide for my every need of companionship, acceptance, and belonging. These are needs only God can fulfill when I choose to allow Him access to all of my heart.

How many times have we who are single heard our married friends look back to the days before their vows as being treasured times, as days in which they could focus more fully on God without the responsibility of spouse, and oftentimes children. As one who is yet without a husband, I have the privilege of allowing God to sustain me in times of loneliness—something I will and must continue to do if I ever do marry.

Simply because we are single (by circumstance or choice) does not mean that we are of any less value or worth to God’s kingdom. All throughout my days growing up in the church and now in my theology classes and Bible study, I do not recall the Word as saying we must marry. If we were to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God as Micah 6:8 says, I wonder if there wouldn’t be a more harmonious tune coming from the hearts (and song lyrics) of people.

[10. Frank Hsueh said the following at 4:48 PM on Jul 11:]

10

Miscellaneous thoughts:

• I have this feeling that people want to have more assurance that the marriage as early as possible. I don't think this assurance is as strong as folks want and therefore folks wait.
• Said James Dobson, "A good marriage is not one where perfection reigns: It is a relationship where a healthy perspective overlooks a multitude of unresolvables." I agree. Many married folks around me agree.
• Obviously picking a bad mate will likely result in a bad marriage. But I imagine that if you pick a good mate then you've done ~ 20% of what makes a marriage successful. The other ~ 80% is decided during the first few years of marriage.
• I think the way to go is not to place all your hope in picking the perfect mate, but to find a good mate that has the right guidance to guide you to the healthy perspective of the unresolveables. And to find your guidance.

I hope that made sense ...

[11. Keb said the following at 5:37 PM on Jul 11:]

11

Not everyone is single by choice. Marriage may be what we want, but nothing is going to magically make it happen for us. Early marriage isn't good--but neither is late marriage. And not everyone hits that sweet spot around 23-25 where it's best and actually finds someone they could spend the rest of their lives with.

They say that if you're content with your life, enjoying yourself and feeling confident, you'll be more attractive. I'm sure this is true. It's what I do most days anyhow, because being prostrate with tears for the rest of my single years would be booooooring.

And yet I wonder sometimes if guys see a happy, confident girl and figure she must not want a relationship, or already has one, since she's smiling, and then don't bother to intrude.

[12. Victoria said the following at 6:31 PM on Jul 11:]

12

I agree with Joseph and Jennifer. As a single, though young, Christian woman, there are few men I would consider ever dating because they lack the maturity to lead me spiritually. Jennifer hit the nail on the head also- being single is a gift. I'm not distracted and am therefore able to devote my time completely to missions. I'd be a lot less effective with my attention torn between a husband and children.

[13. SWF seeks SM seeking God said the following at 6:53 PM on Jul 11:]

13

you guys should start a matchmaking service.

seriously. it's time. enough with the t-shirts...

[14. Hope said the following at 8:53 PM on Jul 11:]

14

I get so sick of hearing how being single is all the woman's fault. That we're all so bitter and are man haters. What doesn't seem to be discussed so much is the extended adolescence of males (as another reader posted) that I believe goes into the 30's! Sometimes even later.

Yes, there are a lot of bitter women. But there are just as many immature men. And for those of us who believe that the man should initiate relationships and proposals, it can be embittering to not be pursued. At my church there are FAR more quality marriage-ready women than there are mature marriage-ready men.

I'm ready for an article addressing the male issues. For instance, in a handful of my close Christian friends marriages, the men are perfectly happy letting their wife support the family. Or, why are men delaying marriage?

[15. Laur said the following at 8:58 PM on Jul 11:]

15

I'm only 22, so forgive me if this is presumptuous, but I think that what is happening here - a lot - is that when we single people read cultural diagnostic posts or articles (i.e. this is a thing happening frequently in our society), we tend to hear "if you are like this, you are sinning." I don't think that's what's meant at all by the post-ers. In fact, I think the opposite is probably intended - to encourage those of us who are single and feel like fish out of water that there is a reason we feel this way. Instead of BEATING UP men for not taking initiative or women for putting career ahead of family in our priorities, we should be BUILDING UP one another for godliness. This doesn't mean anyone is "off the hook," but I think it does mean we ought to be patient and gracious toward each other. When we think we hear criticism, I think we ought to listen for the encouragement that is likely intended.

There is an extent to which we have very little control over our status, and an extent to which we have tons of control over it. What is important is that what is in our power (i.e. what is up to us) is in line with the Lord's heart as expressed in Scripture. Both singleness AND marriage are gifts - we would be fools to deem one exalted and the other lowly. But as gifts, they are given in the timing of the Giver and not necessarily ours. This is actually a good thing.

I'm not saying singleness isn't hard - believe you me, I want to be married like new parents want sleep at night. And I'm not saying marriage isn't hard - I've heard countless war stories. But I think we need, in this forum at least, to assume the best of our brothers and sisters. They aren't trying to browbeat us; they aren't trying to judge us based solely on our marital status; they aren't trying to make us discontent with what God has given us today. If there is a dead horse being beaten here, I think it is because of misunderstanding.

[16. Fred W said the following at 9:01 PM on Jul 11:]

16

Why do people take comments so personally - Boundless has always made allowances for those who are single for the sake of serving God and those who are single because of circumstances.

Stop reading so much into it.

[17. Kristina said the following at 9:31 PM on Jul 11:]

17

I actually have to agree with Keb. I've been guilty of feeling bad for myself because I'm not married yet, and I don't have any decent eligable prospects around... but once I refocus and remember that God has a plan for me I'm much more confident and happy with my life. I sometimes wonder if perhaps this reads as not being available for a relationship, or not wanting one.

Does a woman have to go "boy chasing" or hunting to clue them in?? I should hope not. Being very flirtatious to get a man's attention has never been a virtuous image in my mind. I would hope that mature Christian guys would be the risk takers, by persuing a woman who seems like she displys godly qualites, instead of waiting for a one of us to fawn over you in order to attract your attention.

I hate to say it, but I do sound a little bitter over this hehe... However, it's the truth from my experience.

[18. xeres said the following at 10:27 PM on Jul 11:]

18

Victoria, what do you mean by singleness being a gift? Do you mean it's a spiritual gift from the Holy Spirt or what? Because I don't see how our martial status is a spiritual gift, which sounds illogical.

[19. Justice said the following at 11:20 PM on Jul 11:]

19

Keb, some good points there

Hmm, what about some of those Hillsong United guys that were or are single until their mid to late 20's, they are being used my God in a MAJOR way.

When will these secular women take some of the blame for these problems? They put out, then wonder why there is no respect, some of them take and take and take and never give back, I hear women all the time talk trash about their spouses and complain and it's not like they are God's gift to men either.

[20. Stephen said the following at 11:35 PM on Jul 11:]

20

I frequently detect subtle, or in this case not-so-subtle, male bashing on Boundless. Sure there are more and older Christian singles now than years ago, but this is not all the fault of men.

I tried to date in college. Three of the Christian women I expressed interest in made it clear that they weren't interested in serious dating. And all three are 30 and single now, and with PhDs or MDs. Another, whom I did date for two years, decided singleness was preferable.

I know that your mileage may vary, but from my POV a significant subset of young Christian women are more concerned with their careers than marriage.

[21. BDB said the following at 11:57 PM on Jul 11:]

21

Keb wrote:

>>And yet I wonder sometimes if guys see a happy, confident girl and figure she must not want a relationship, or already has one, since she's smiling, and then don't bother to intrude.<<

Nah...that's not enough. However, if she whips out her cell phone immediately upon the pastor dismissing the church service, and is already talking on it as she briskly walks out of the sanctuary...well, that kind of says, "don't approach..."

[22. Don said the following at 12:47 AM on Jul 12:]

22

I find it interesting to note that Avrille Lavigne is actually married, which is why the meanings of some of her songs don't make a whole lot of sense.

[23. Brittany said the following at 1:30 AM on Jul 12:]

23

I agree with a lot of the pervious posters. As a 27 year old, single Christian woman who is diligently serving and seeking what God has for me, I long for companionship, I want to "marry well" but I haven't purposefully delayed it, well no, I take that back, I have delayed it...but you know why, because those I have dated were not who God had for me. Many of us are single because we adhere to standards; we won't budge just for companionship. There is more than marriage that will keep us from being "alone" and bitter. I anxiously await the day I meet my future spouse, but until then, I conciously fight against the bitterness that would try to creep in because I know God has me where He has me, for this time as necessary. When I meet "him," with the standards I have and what God has done in my life, I'm pretty sure that with mature stage we'll both be at, our marriage will be built on a solid foundation. Marrying well, yes, I would like to do it...where are the Christian men us Christian women are supposed to marry well with?

[24. Ro said the following at 2:27 AM on Jul 12:]

24

On the Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar quote, some of us single women do not have that luxury. If our longings could largely be satisfied by marrying well, since we don't have the option of getting married (maybe we aren't pretty enough, maybe we don't have nice enough hearts or personalities, maybe God doesn't think we're holy enough), we have to learn to satisfy those longings in God.

I agree with Keb, we can't be upset that God isn't giving us marriage. We have to learn to stop having those longings, as God clearly intends for us currently to be single. Its painful to continue to have unmet longings for companionship. The best a single female can do is learn to be independent and not need a man, or at least approximate this as closely as she can. You have to learn to enjoy your independence if God is currently choosing to make you single. You have to make the most of it. Companionship is wonderful. We all long for intimacy. If God keeps saying no to providing these, you have to try to be ok by yourself.

God may have made relationships in response to Adam's loneliness, but if he isn't answering your prayers for a spouse, you have to learn to meet those needs for companionship elsewhere, until God provides. You can't carry on like a person with unmet needs. You have to learn independence. If God is saying no to his cure for loneliness to you, you have to find another way to not be lonely, if you can. Because continuing in loneliness is unpleasantly painful. God says he gives us everything we need. "The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want." If he is not giving us a life companion after years of praying for this, we obviously don't need one for now. And we need to learn to be ok with this.

Also, when I've mentioned in discussions with fellow Christians on the topic of singleness, that God created women in response to Adam's loneliness, I am told that relationships were created to ease Adam's loneliness, not Eve's...

I am just saying that after years of praying and waiting on God, what more can a single women do then realize that God does not want to provide her this kind of companionship, for whatever reason, for the foreseeable future, and she must therefore try to meet her needs as best she can, with friends and family and other kinds of companionship? What choice does she have? Of course, she will continue to pray, but this hasn't resulted in provision in the past, and so she is forced to be independent, due to God's repeated answers of no.

I applaud your work at Boundless, I really do. I just disagree slightly with some of the sentiments in this post (although not all). A single woman God isn't providing with a husband needs to learn independence and other ways to cope with her loneliness than wating for a husband that is taking years to come.

[25. Shauna said the following at 2:31 AM on Jul 12:]

25

My feeling is that being single is only a gift for some people- for others it's a difficult phase that we need to trust God to help us through. I am 26, and single, and I have gradually progressed from feeling that I didn't need a man, to feeling that maybe being single isn't so great, to feeling that I really don't like being alone in my journey through life! Yet it's easier said than done to marry and marry well. The few men I have met that I might have considered marriage material were already taken or else uninterested. And now that I'm out of college, it's really hard to meet anyone who's single and Christian, let alone marriage minded and compatible with me! I am alternately angry with God for leaving me single and alone for so long, and resigned to the fact that only He can help me through this time and only He can help me find someone to spend my life with. So my conclusion is: if you're single and really are OK with that, then all power to you! But if you're single and wish not to be, then remember that ALL good things come from God. He doesn't require that you like being single, only that you give control to Him and seek to follow Him in the life that you have now. He will take care of the rest.

[26. Ro said the following at 2:56 AM on Jul 12:]

26

Some very good points are made in this post.

But for me personally:
For today, God isn't providing, so I have to try to be lonely as little as possible, and try to be as ok on my own as I can. I never quite get here. But I have to try. Because I don't like being lonely.

[27. bryce said the following at 3:32 AM on Jul 12:]

27

"it is good for man not to be alone," but also, "I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion."

apparently to the apostle paul the reason to get married doesn't have as much to do with "you complete me," than it does, "i'm a fornicator without you!"

like most singles, i hate that the church has been taken over by the married elitists. i'm a pastor and let me tell you that the church leadership world is full of, "you're only a real pastor when you're married" types. they ru(i)n our churches.

the fact of the matter is paul gave one good reason for marrying, sin. to the people who had the "gift" he said, "DON'T MARRY!" remain single. just like the world's culture trickles down from the sinful elitists who teach in universities, so goes the church culture. we breed a church culture that puts primacy on marriage and illegitimacy and "late adolescence" on singles. i'm not a huge fan of gilbert bilizekian, but something he said in a book years ago struck a chord with me and goes something like this, "when Biblical values get replaced with 'family values' you can be sure the church is teaching error."

one reason is obvious: family values apply only to those with families; whereas Biblical values apply to all.

i close with some wise words of GOD, spoken through the apostle paul's pen: "I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord. But the married man is anxious about worldly things, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried or betrothed woman is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit. But the married woman is anxious about worldly things, how to please her husband."

[28. Jennifer Thomas said the following at 5:58 AM on Jul 12:]

28

<>

AMEN!
Thanks, "SWF" for your succinct call to action!

[29. Carrie said the following at 6:28 AM on Jul 12:]

29

As a SWF there are some things I am unclear on.
(1) How is Micah 6:8 any less applicable in marriage than in singleness? Something tells me that marriage would require more effort/help from God to do this in marriage than in singleness.
(2) What happens if you don't feel like you're damaged from the your parents' horrible marriage? What happens if Christ has healed/shielded you from any real lasting damage and so you feel like you're ready?
(3) What do you do when, despite you're best efforts, men still seem to find you undesireable?

Much of this can be resolved by faith in God's sovereignty -- He is in control of it all and is working things for your good. Like the Boundless writers, I'm a little put off by comments like "I'd be a lot less effective with my attention torn between a husband and children."

" If we were to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God as Micah 6:8 says, I wonder if there wouldn’t be a more harmonious tune coming from the hearts (and song lyrics) of people." (as if the world just had more single people singing Kum-bye-ya together around a camp fire all would good and right)
"I don't have the patience to do more than skim through any more articles about how unholy modern women are for not pairing themselves off (and being angry at the assumption that they should have to). It feels like beating a dead horse, to me."
What is Boundless.org a branch of? Focus on the FAMILY. They are committed to ministering to Christian FAMILIES. So, naturally they concern themselves with ministering to people who will one day have a FAMILY. Husbands and wives start of a single people. Like it or not, there are some social stigmas in place that do go against what Scripture teaches and thus frustrating many Christian single people who strive to be the Proverbs 31 woman.
I think that if one does not want to hear about how wrong certain social stigmas are, they should not be on the website of a ministry that concerns itself with fighting against certain social stigmas and seeks to be faithful to Scripture.
Call me crazy, but I don't think the problems is with the writers and their convictions that come from their study of Scripture.

[30. J-Twinkle said the following at 7:39 AM on Jul 12:]

30

Candice,

I have some questions for you regarding this post:

Do you believe that marriage is the end-all way to end the bitter discontent of single women?

Where in the Bible does it say that Adam was lonely? I see where it states that GOD said that it was not good for Adam to be alone.

What was the point of this post? Was it to make single women see their source of their bitterness as the result of denying their desire for marriage?

[31. Lindsey said the following at 8:02 AM on Jul 12:]

31

To Jennifer Thomas: AMEN!!!!!!

You beautifully worded the thoughts that go through my head every time i read a Boundless article about Christian singles and their NEED to be married. It is frustrating on lots of levels. Firstly, like you, i have remained single far longer than i had ever planned or hoped for. So, it is not that i have delayed marriage...marriage has delayed me. Secondly, i agree that if you tell singles to find a marriage partner so they will be fulfilled or happier or whatever, they are going to be expecting a LOT from that partner, too much perhaps. Singles need to learn to take those desires and needs to God, because He alone can complete us. A spouse only compliments us.
And thirdly, i can't help but wonder if marrying young is the reason for a 50% divorce rate.
I do sometimes find myself wondering sometimes how so many silly girls who don't seem to be very mature or have a decent grip on reality seemed to get married, and so many mature, intelligent, practical women stay single......do guys like silly girls who have no idea what it means to be a godly wife???

[32. Maria said the following at 8:04 AM on Jul 12:]

32

I really have to agree with the above posts. Where are the posts about men growing in maturity? I go to a fantastic church and have 8-10 wonderful godly girlfriends who challenge and inspire me in my walk with the Lord. I have some guy friends too...but none of them are walking with the Lord the extent I consider mandatory before contemplating the possibility of a relationship. Among godly christian women, believe me, the issue is not really on our end.

And I have to ask, if my disire long term is to become a mother and serve the Lord that way, what could possibly be the harm of living life on my own, learning how to pay bills, manage a home and budget and serve the church while I'm undistracted by a man? I'm not going to sit on my parents couch and wait for Mr. Right to walk up and get down on his knee. I'm going to keep pursing the Lord and living a productive life. If a great godly man comes along and wants to interupt that, that's great!! But until then...I'm moving on with my life. I'm going to grow in my relationship with the Lord and I'm going to learn how to better serve God's people. Unless I'm grossly mistaken, that's where many, many women stand.

Also, I don't think I'm in a place where I feel like it would be beneficial to my relationship with the Lord to get married. My perspective is that my calling is first to be a woman who follows God. I absolutely refuse to consider marriage unless I am sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that that situation will draw me closer to the Lord, and make me more effective in carrying out the Great Commission. Right now that is just not the case. My heart is in a place where it will become easily distracted, and I love the Lord too much to let anything get in the way.

Could we focus on some of these issues in posts regarding women's singleness? Keep in mind that the women singing those songs are not regenerated believers, they are women who have sucumbed to lies the world has preached to them. Many godly women do want to be married and are just pursing the Lord's will for their lives for the present time, which may or may not include marriage.

[33. Ted Slater said the following at 8:38 AM on Jul 12:]

33

Hope -- it's refreshing to hear someone complain that we only blame women for the problem of delayed marriage. Usually we hear from men complaining that we're only picking on them. Maybe you and Stephen should work out who we pick on most.

The truth is that both men and women share responsibility for this situation, and each can do something about it.

[34. Tracy said the following at 8:39 AM on Jul 12:]

34

Now *that* would be interesting. Who wants to start it? haha :)

[35. Hope said the following at 8:54 AM on Jul 12:]

35

Stephen-
I feel exactly the opposite. I detect a not-so-subtle women bashing in the articles. It's written like it's all our fault for being single, for delaying marriage, etc.

[36. Brian said the following at 9:03 AM on Jul 12:]

36

Joseph -

In response to your closing remark, "To all the godly holy men out there keep plugging along. We are the salt of the earth", amen brother. Thanks for reminding us of that glorious truth.

I believe if we are indeed to be salt and light to this dark and tasteless culture, we need the church. Ladies, I do hope that you are secure whenever you're around your brothers in Christ and realize that we do want you to be served with sincere purity. Men, this is where women will find safety and comfort, and it's up to us to take up the joyful yoke of leading, initiating, guiding, and directing them (and everyone else) to the holy hill called Calvary, provide encouragement and support, and thank God for them.

We've all been transferred (Col 1:13); so let's live not only in the good of that but also reflect it into our culture. Awesome, isn't it?

[37. Maria said the following at 9:28 AM on Jul 12:]

37

Ted - What are women supposed to do about the problem if we are supposed to be waiting for the guys to initiate? I don't see a to-do list here for us....other than just pursue the Lord and trust him that he has my future in his hands. What else is there?

[38. John said the following at 9:42 AM on Jul 12:]

38

I was always encouraged by my parents to wait until I found the right woman to marry. I've heard the same thing from other quarters as well: don't marry someone you can live with -- marry someone you can't live without.

I've yet to find such a lady. Meanwhile, life goes on.

[39. JMarie said the following at 9:54 AM on Jul 12:]

39

Does anyone else get the impression that Boundless just can't win? They write posts directed at men, and they're accused of always beating up on the men. They write posts directed at women, and they're accused of beating up on all the poor women who don't want to be single. Are people taking the time to simply evaluate whether something in a post resonates with their life? If it doesn't, great; one less area to work on.

When I was younger, I jokingly and routinely bashed men without realizing I was hurting my wonderful father (who I am so blessed to have!). It took a wake-up call from my mom to realize that I'd adopted such a hurtful attitude from the culture around me, and I had to consciously work on rejecting that outlook. This post made me realize that I've enjoyed music with the independent, anti-man attitude without really thinking about where it was coming from or how it might shape my attitude towards men. Will I stop listening to those songs? I don't know - but at least now I'll be alert to their message. Taking a little time for introspection isn't a bad thing. However, maybe your attitude towards the opposite sex isn't your problem, and you're facing competely different obstacles to marriage. If a post doesn't hit you where you're at, sit back and ask it's directed at someone else before getting all hurt and confrontational.

[40. Carrie said the following at 10:13 AM on Jul 12:]

40

RE: "don't marry someone you can live with -- marry someone you can't live without."

This old cliché is what drives Christians to be single. We are supposed to be relying on Christ alone for our needs. If we ever feel we need anything else, then we're committing idolatry and that's something we need to repent of. So, again, we are back at Square One.

[41. Robert J Espe said the following at 10:28 AM on Jul 12:]

41

"Why assume that a garment tailored for someone else must have been made to fit you"?
~Frank Herbert

Not all blog posts apply to everyone. I'm a married man, so this one doesn't really apply to me. If you are content being single, it doesn't apply to you. So don't post 40 comments about how bad Boundless is for promoting marriage. Just quietly read, and then go comment on a post about which you have something relevant to contribute.

The point of this post is that a bitter loner is a bad role model. If you like being a loner, you should be a joyful one. Candice also accurately suggested that a bitter loaner is probably bitter because they don't like being a loaner, but cynicism won't solve their problem. So this post was clearly addressed to those who can identify with the bitter loner portrayed in our media.

[42. Mandi said the following at 10:44 AM on Jul 12:]

42

Maria -- I learned in my single season, which lasted a lot longer than I'd expected, too -- that pursuing and relying on the Lord is doing something.

The pursuing part involves using your gifts from Him to do things you're good at and are interested in (which is most likely when you'd be most attractive anyway), being in fellowship with other Christians, and being an active member of the Church. Obviously, it means living in obedience to His commandments, which would keep you out of destructive behaviors that would greatly reduce your chances to marry. I think you'd really be uplifted by the book "Choosing God's Best".

The relying part involves trusting your matchmaking to the best Matchmaker there is, without knowing, or needing to know, the how or when.

I once read an explanation of the line in the Lord's Prayer, "Thy will be done", which really gets to the heart of the matter when asking for God's will about anything: "Help me accept that which is difficult and seemingly unbearable or impossible in Your will. Help me, in other words, to desire that which you desire."

[43. Mandi said the following at 10:44 AM on Jul 12:]

43

Hope -- the attitudes and behaviors alluded to by Mike Theemling are "all our fault". Those are our choices, not men's.

[44. Captain Sensible said the following at 10:46 AM on Jul 12:]

44

Boundless "can't win" because it is trying to have one foot in both camps:
The "Singleness is a gift and you just need to wait and trust and when the time is right, God will land your spouse in your lap" camp.
Or the "Singleness is not a gift, but there is a rare gift of celibacy given to a few to accommodate Kingdom work that would be incompatible with a spouse and family. For the vast majority of singles however this does not apply, and so protracted singleness is actually not 'God's will', but a result of a combination of factors. These include the above wrong teaching that encourages passivity and prolonged adolescence amongst men, and the simple mathematical fact that there are more single Christian women than there are men, and churches are neglecting to address this problem" camp.
Until Boundless decides which teaching is right, and which is wrong, (and there is no way to reconcile these diametrically opposed views) they are just adding to the muddle instead of "bringing focus" to it.
For those that are interested in this subject, may I suggest they read Debbie Maken's book: "Getting Serious About Getting Married: Rethinking the Gift of Singleness".

[45. nikki said the following at 11:15 AM on Jul 12:]

45

Just a reiteration that Boundless usually gets more complaints from the male population who seem to think they are "bashed" more than the women.

People, come on. Not every article can address every facet of dating-and-Christianity. On the contrary, each article generally focuses on a small aspect or issue within the whole. That's what this article does. I didn't feel like it was directed at women...rather the intent that I observed was that the hook-up/divorce culture breeds sadness, anger, regret and bitterness. Who can argue with that??

Every single time there is a post about relationships, there are multitudes of singles who think they are being "bashed" for being unmarried. Stop being so sensitive and don't think every little article is a personal attack on your life. This article is largely talking about the environment of despair corresponding to a "free-love" style of culture. The last sentence was a little off, I think (only God can allay fears and make life joyful) but it is NOT the point. Please do our authors the fundamental honor of addressing the point of their articles.

[46. Esther said the following at 11:15 AM on Jul 12:]

46

I find myself amused at the back and forth of accusations here. Though a woman, I would say that posts on Boundless lean slightly more towards exhorting men to grow up and take action. Which may be appropriate. And a wake up call to women is also appropriate. I would venture to remind all of us that a rebuke that stings probably has some truth in it. At 5'2", if someone accused me of being "too tall" I'd fall down laughing, not get all defensive.

Why is it that, as Christians, we refuse to let ourselves be seen as vulnerable and human? Why do we have to strut around our "independence" all the time, and insist we can do it on our own? I try to be open with my friends and family about my desire to be married, but only as a passing comment. Then we talk about all the richness of life as I'm living it now. I have many people who are in prayer with me for future relationships, as well as current ministry, work and family issues. I don't live perfectly- sometimes I obsess on marriage, but I try to be open and accountable about my struggles, in the hope that contemporaries, as well as younger sisters will be encouraged to pursue God's will (either married or single) in a humble, honest way. If we girls believe that guys are looking for someone dumb and fun (or sassy and independent), and try to fit that model, we are being untrue to ourselves and unfair to the guys. Not that anyone really cares, but as a word of encouragement to those others waiting and wondering: after over a year of nary a date, I have two in the next few days. Both good Christian men that I am interested in getting to know. Now it's just up to God to sort out which (if either) is ready to pursue a focused, intentional relationship. In a setting where "courtship" (as presented on Boundless) is a foreign concept, this should be interesting.

[47. John said the following at 11:27 AM on Jul 12:]

47

Carrie,

I didn't mean when I wrote

"don't marry someone you can live with -- marry someone you can't live without"

that one should make one's spouse an object of idolatrous worship.

I can live without her just fine, and have been doing just that all my life.

All I meant was that I haven't found anyone I really want to get married to.

[48. Irene M. said the following at 11:33 AM on Jul 12:]

48

Interesting article, but I am rather confused about your complaints over "Before He Cheats" and "U + Ur Hand". Isn't anger a legitimate and understandable response to infidelity and sexual harrassment?

[49. Christine said the following at 11:38 AM on Jul 12:]

49

I'm not one to promote "man-bashing" because I am blessed to have two amazing men in my life - my dad and my brother. Growing up, I also had my great-uncle and my grandfather. I enjoy talking to my pastor or other men at church. But, years of singleness and frustration have given me some of the bitterness towards relationships. I'm tired of things not working out and, frankly, it's easier sometimes to flaunt my independance and try to convince myself that I have no need for a man. It isn't because I hate men; it's to keep my heart from getting broken again, to keep myself from hoping for what seems impossible.

Guys, I'm sorry to say, but those of you who are God fearing and have the best of intentions may have to work hard to prove yourselves and win the trust of those who, like myself, have been emotionally exhausted. I'm tired of hoping for someone to win my heart. It seems hopeless most days. For me, trying to be confident in my independance is a coping mechanism, not a hatred for men.

[50. EmmaLee said the following at 12:13 PM on Jul 12:]

50

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him and he shall direct your paths." - Proverbs 3:5

I always turn to this verse when I have a difficult decision to make, or when I'm in a situation I don't want to be in. Just some food for thought.

And now for my biased opinion in response to Carrie's comment.

Carrie said:

"RE: "don't marry someone you can live with -- marry someone you can't live without."

This old cliché is what drives Christians to be single. We are supposed to be relying on Christ alone for our needs. If we ever feel we need anything else, then we're committing idolatry and that's something we need to repent of. So, again, we are back at Square One."

Saying that you need your spouse is not committing idolatry. It is acknowledging that Christ is providing for your needs through that person. God crafted my spouse and I for each other. So when I turn to my husband and he comes through for me, it is because God gave him the understanding and abilities that I needed. Not because my husband could do it in his own strength.
I know that some people who could live without their spouses still have happy marriages. I know some people try to follow this and get stuck being single. I personally have married a man that I can't live without. So did my mother. So did her mother. Which is why I am biased towards waiting for the person you can't live without. The problem with this is that some people think following this means waiting for the guy who meets a list of qualities and traits. My husband pretty much matched nothing that I was looking for. Yet whenever he was gone I felt like a chunk of me was missing. It turns out that God quite often provides for us in ways we never expected. Which is why, in reference to the scripture listed above, I try to focus on the "lean not on your own understanding" part. It's hard to do, but often my own understanding is generally what hinders me from reaching Gods will.

[51. lewsta said the following at 12:14 PM on Jul 12:]

51

As I read the post and responses, I was amused...yes, there IS an overly sensitive strain running through many of the responses..perhaps some chord of reality has struck home in some cases. The post plainly addresses the destructiveness of today's "hookup" culture which preaches the "joys" (yeah, right....) of the trashification of healthy relationships in favour of instant pleasure. As to women remaining single for longer than they had ever thought they would---I know its a tired cliche, but the traits described in Proverbs 31 are great ones to cultivate. Do you look upon the well being of others rather than sitting in your apartment crying in your beer over the lack of "dates"? Do you make sure everyone else around you is "having a good time"? Trust me, as a single and still searching male, I look for these sorts of things. A women inturned is NOT one whom anyone might "marry well". As to the issue of men remaining in adolescence for far too long, clearly another cultural disease...and one against which we men must get aggressive, first in our own lives. I loved the comment made by one woman about living her life as best she can, wondering when some godly man will pop round to "interrupt" her, which she thinks would be just fine. Trouble is, and I've fallen victim to this far too often, we men have bought the lie that we ought not interrupt the seeminly satisfactory life of an eligible woman. I love what Douglas Wilson states in his book Her Hand in Marriage....that we men NEED to interrupt those lives, else we'll never "find" HER. If being single is what she desires, then well---that will be manifest soon enough, we can close that chapter, turning the page for the next. Personally, I LOOK for a woman who lives life fully, seems basically content, is involved in healthy relationships with different sorts of people.

Regarding the phenomenon of the seemingly long odds against success in "the search"--I've often thought that church leadership (pastors, elders, older heads of families) need to take seriously our needs as singles to the point they actively get to know us as individuals, and, as they travel about for regional, national, even international conferences, meetings, etc, actively make enquiry on our behalf. I keep hearing of hordes of wonderful, godly women who desire their husbands, sooner rather than later....but where ARE they? In my own church, there is precisely ONE unmarried female over the age of 18---who just last month graduated high school. None of the others are even old enough to drive yet. Uhm....no likely situations here. So, HOW can I learn of these large numbers of eligible prospects unless someone keep watch on my behalf? And who better than church leadership? Boundless get into matchmaking? No, I rather think not. Boundless do not know me---nor any of the Ladies who post here. How can they possibly assess who might be suitable for whom? But if MY pastor, who does know me, would talk to your pastor, who knows you well, perhaps the great gulf of the unknown might be bridged. At least it would not fail for lack of trying!!

[52. Patricia said the following at 12:23 PM on Jul 12:]

52

I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with delaying marriage for a reasonable period. The simple fact is more women today pursue graduate education or other opportunities. Is this selfish? I currently am in a PhD program and while I want to get married, I also believe God desires me to continue in my studies. Also, some studies have suggested that people who marry after 22 I believe have more stable marriages. I certainly don't think marrying in the mid 20s is too early-but at the same time there is no need for everyone to pair off in college or even high school.

[53. Ted Slater said the following at 12:46 PM on Jul 12:]

53

Patricia -- I agree that there's nothing wrong with "delaying marriage for a reasonable period." While some 18-year-olds are entirely ready to enter into marriage, it may be best for most to delay a few years before they tie the knot.

At the same time, research shows that there is no benefit in delaying marriage past about 27 years old. Just as those who marry "young" have their set of difficulties, those who marry "older" have their set of difficulties. The "sweet spot," according to research, is somewhere between 23-27 for most people.

As I have to frequently add, I intend no condemnation for those singles older than 27. I married at 36, and though many of my reasons for delaying marriage were rooted in the sins of selfishness, indecisiveness and immaturity, I'm grateful that I married the woman I did at the time that I did. I need to add that we're not in the "marriage mandate" camp either, as some are fond of saying; we don't require our readers to marry in a timely manner "or else" you'll become the object of God's disfavor.

I'm just saying that for most it's a good idea not to put off marriage for too long; God created us to marry relatively early in our lives, and pushing that off can have negative consequences. We want to see our readers blessed, and experience as few of those "negative consequences" as possible.

[54. BDB said the following at 1:29 PM on Jul 12:]

54

EmmaLee wrote:

>>My husband pretty much matched nothing that I was looking for. Yet whenever he was gone I felt like a chunk of me was missing.<<

This is a very good starting point for my comment. I think that a lot of single people aren't nearly as "independent" as they'd like to believe. What I see is that people restrict their lives to what they are good at - and reject everything else. This makes them feel strong and independent. But it also limits them.

For example, we've all heard how communication is imortant to marriage. The most important part of communication is...vocabulary. When two people read the same books, they expand their shared vocabulary and make communication easier.

So, ladies, say you're most comfortable with going to lunch or dinner and drinks. Perhaps you've decided that since you've finished college, you no longer need to read non-fiction books, you'd rather use your non-work time to only have "fun."

Then one day an intellectual guy shows some interest in you, and he gives you a book. If you thank him and put it on the shelf, never to be read, you've just ended the relationship. He will conclude that you are not interested in him, because all his intellectual friends read books and discuss them; that's the basis for getting to know each other.

On the other hand, if you decide to try reading the book, you might actually discover that you like something new! Even better, you may find that he was paying attention to you and picked out something you would like. But you'll never know that unless you step outside your comfort zone and try something new.

Everyone I know who is successfully married talks about how their spouse can do things that they aren't good at. At some point along the line they had to step out of their comfort zone. For pretty much all the single people I know, they routinely reject ideas or suggestions for activities that are outside their comfort zone.

I'm not talking about trying different types of tequila here. Well, maybe I should. I know women who have organized their routine in such a way that 100% of their social activities include alcohol. They don't know how to, say, volunteer at a soup kitchen. And they're not willing to try.

But the same thing goes for guys. I had to avoid bursting out laughing once after a ballet performace...as I passed three couples where the girl was excitedly asking the guy, "So, what did you think?" At least an acceptable response is, "It's like a martial art, only with costumes like a play."

[55. Jessica said the following at 3:41 PM on Jul 12:]

55

BDB: "Everyone I know who is successfully married talks about how their spouse can do things that they aren't good at. At some point along the line they had to step out of their comfort zone. For pretty much all the single people I know, they routinely reject ideas or suggestions for activities that are outside their comfort zone."

I'm not sure how big of a pool of friends you're drawing this from, but it seems to me to be a gross generalization that single people are single because they reject new things. I'm terminally single (and would like not to be!) and I delight in trying new things, just as many of my other single friends do. In fact, I just had a conversation with a single Christian girlfriend of mine that it would be ideal to meet a man who was passionate about his interests (however different they are from mine) and who I could expose to my interests and as exposes me to his. I don't think I'm alone in that view.

In the past year or two, I've done many things that made me uncomfortable: moving across the country by myself, learning to ski, going to a party alone, taking painting lessons even though I am not very artistic, starting medical school and doing things very outside of my comfort zone like dissecting a cadaver and performing a rectal exam, etc. etc. I don't think I'm single because I will be unable to leave my comfort zone with a potential mate. And I don't think I'm in the minority. I rather think that extended singleness forces people to do things on their own that they might dread, and also that single people often have the time and freedom to try out things like new hobbies and traveling alone that they might not have done if they'd married young.

I really think you've missed the mark completely.

[56. Melissa said the following at 4:58 PM on Jul 12:]

56

Carrie said:
RE: "don't marry someone you can live with -- marry someone you can't live without."

This old cliché is what drives Christians to be single. We are supposed to be relying on Christ alone for our needs. If we ever feel we need anything else, then we're committing idolatry and that's something we need to repent of. So, again, we are back at Square One.
-------------------------------------

Carrie, you're right, we are to rely upon Christ alone for our needs. Christ alone provides our life, salvation, etc...however we were not made to be "Lone Rangers". We were made for relationships.

Ultimately, the relationship with God is the most important and sustains us. But God in his grace has provided the means of earthly relationships to provide for our other needs. We do have needs that God fulfills through other people.

Marriage does fulfill many needs in one's life. However, even if one is not married (and I am not) God wants us to have relationships with others--parents, family, friends, co-workers, other believers, etc... Why do you think the Bible spends so much time focusing on relationships--marriage of course(Ephesians 5 and others), but also parent/child (Ephesians 6), slave/master (Ephesians 6). Also the precedent in Scripture of Christ sending out the disciples in pairs--we need each other!

So, whether you are married or not, don't fall into the lie that Satan has told us that we need no one. A lone ranger in his/her Christian walk stands a great chance of being attacked from the enemy and from giving into their own sinful desires (we need accountability and godly counsel).

[57. BDB said the following at 5:30 PM on Jul 12:]

57

Jessica wrote:

>>I'm not sure how big of a pool of friends you're drawing this from, but it seems to me to be a gross generalization that single people are single because they reject new things.<<

It's less than 200, so it's probably not a perfect statistical sample.

But from a case-study perspective, it's a few dozen couples and individuals I've observed; more than enough to persuade me. And if I knew you personally, it would be very easy to arrange a dinner so that you could hear their story straight from them.

Medical school sounds like a good place to meet an intellectual match. Particularly if you're open to trying new things with people you meet.

Your mileage may vary.

[58. BDB said the following at 6:18 PM on Jul 12:]

58

Jessica wrote:

>>I really think you've missed the mark completely.<<

You know what? I'm going to go ahead and provide two real-life examples from my married friends that they cited.

In one case, the guy was big into target shooting. The girl hated guns. But she consented to go shooting with him once. As he was discussing me that he was thinking of proposing, he actually pointed to her being a good sport and being willing to do something she hated as an example of why he respected her.

Second example: The guy rebuilds cars as a hobby. She agreed to go with him to the junk yard to get parts. Way outside her comfort zone. Now that they're married, he still rebuilds cars and sells them - a hobby that pays for itself. She was willing to go once to understand his hobby better.

Now, I've personally observed people who refused to do simple things like that. All I'm saying is that it's good to try new things, and when someone invites you to do something that's important to them that you don't like or understand, it might be worth it to go anyway.

[59. victoria said the following at 6:45 PM on Jul 12:]

59

xeres- i mean singleness as a gift like being financially independent or being really smart. i think God can give us the gift of singleness, smartness or money to better serve him in a specific way - but no, not as a spiritual gift.

[60. Joseph said the following at 8:27 PM on Jul 12:]

60

I think another important piece of advice for singles men and women is to be approachable and even vulnerable. If your single its highly likely you haven't met you spouse yet. Therefore your spouse is someone you don't know yet. So get to know all kinds of people and don't limit yourself.

Get to know people outside of your clique and don't get to caught up in their quirks and what not.

Seeking a spouse is a risk and you will have some bad experiences, just like when you look for a job you are bound to get turned down. But keep churning.

[61. Andrew (tlw) said the following at 9:36 PM on Jul 12:]

61

Mike,
I tend to agree with you and think there are a number of causes. Lengthy qualifying and training times for most jobs has, I think, adversely impacted men more than women. Young, broke students just don’t cut it with women intent on seeking soul mates. Women in their twenties look to date older, more mature and more established guys, but their inflated expectations (fuelled by unrealistic chick flicks) still make any long term relationships problematic.
Men are of course not exempt from their own issues, like being in debt, sticking with dead-end jobs and refusing to acknowledge the need to grow up. But … my suspicion is that young men faced with expectations of character and maturity that only come from a lifetime of experience, just give up and don’t bother trying.
I know this sounds like I’m painting men as victims here … but I don’t blame younger men for staying single. Without the means to earn a steady income, with inflation making housing unaffordable, and same aged women eyeing off older (often recycled) men, what is a younger guy to do?

[62. Adam said the following at 11:40 PM on Jul 12:]

62

This isn't really entirely on topic but, in my personal opinion based on my own life experience, I do not feel that it is worth it to be single and alone. I grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere and never really had many friends, and certainly never had any girlfriends. When I think back on my past, I never really made any memories worth keeping. The best memories I have are from college, which wasn't very long ago, but is still long gone and all of those people have either moved on, or in some cases, have even died. When I look at married couples, I think, man they actually get to do stuff with someone important. It doesn't matter what they're doing, they're at least doing something with someone else and can have a good time. I've seen a lot of movies by myself, taken a lot of hikes by myself, and have done pretty much everything by myself, and none of it has really made life more exciting.

Basically my own personal argument from my own personal point of view is that life isn't worth living alone. Yes you can live life alone and survive quite well, but is it adventurous? Is it something worth remembering or is it something you think others will respect? It is my wish that many of you that are still single do marry so you can enjoy and share memories together and live life abundantly.

Also, as a side note. Do any of the other men feel that as your strongest desire for marriage is for something to quench that awful desire to fornicate? It is irritable to see non-Christian men play women for nothing but sex. What's worse is that a lot of women reciprocate and go along with these men! This might not seem important to some people, but other than companionship, it is sex that I desire. Forcing to crush my urges and remain a virgin and clean in a hyper sensual country where it is very difficult to find an attractive person who isn't a virgin is a very challenging task, and the temptation to fornicate is staggering. I'm not quoting any sources or implying that my information is reliable or accurate, but aren't men most sexual charged during their late teens and early 20s? Most non-Christian men during this age have pretty active sexual lives. A lot of the Christian brothers I met in college have abstained from sex and talk about how they look forward to marriage so that they can finally have sex. Ok I said that pretty bluntly, and there is a lot more substance to us guys than, I want sex, but I was just wondering how the older men address this issue and can give some sort of comfort to us younger men who probably don't have a hope in marrying for several more years, if at all.

[63. Andrew (tlw) said the following at 11:50 PM on Jul 12:]

63

Ted,

You may be surprised that I agree with on the idea of a “sweet spot” for getting married. Except it often doesn’t happen. I worked full-time from 18-25, and probably 75% of the eligible women in my church who married in this time later separated and divorced. From 25-30 I was a college student, the female students I knew were career focussed and not interested in relationships. One gf even gave up on our relationship in favour of going to bible college in another state.

It was not until my 30s that women in their twenties actually took me seriously as mate material. This occurred concurrently with moving from a resort town in a tourist area where I had lived my entire life and attended college, to a large city. I may not be the most perceptive of people and my desire to marry hadn’t changed, but the people around me certainly had, and I maintain to this day that cultural influences of that resort area adversely affect women’s (and men’s) perceptions of what constitutes healthy relationships.

Whilst my female college college friends were busily spurning men and chasing a career, the one college student in my circle of friends who announced her engagement and got married on graduation was treated as a pariah, and scorned by her female friends for “throwing her life away.”
Personally, I envied her blessed good fortune. Marriage does not make me whole, nor does it meet all my needs. But when the longing does not go away, you cry out to God, turn to busyness and activity, and anything that will drown the unmet desires of your heart.

The continuing slanging match between the genders about who is right and wrong and who is to blame for being single “too long” does nothing to promote understanding. Whilst many men might be deemed too immature to qualify as marriage material, many women are as well. Acknowledging that we are all imperfect people will help us progress towards achieving balance and proportion in how we encourage singles.

I think that BDB also makes a good point on this: showing an interest in someone’s else’s hobby or passion can take you (pleasantly) unexpected places.

[64. Mike Theemling said the following at 2:13 AM on Jul 13:]

64

Great postings as usual, no matter how many times this topic is brought up. It always seems to bring out lively discussion.

Brittany you said,

"I have delayed it...but you know why, because those I have dated were not who God had for me. Many of us are single because we adhere to standards; we won't budge just for companionship."

I agree that we should keep some standards (marry only a Believer, don't marry someone with traits you find intolerable, someone with serious character flaws, etc). But I wonder though, how many guys you've turned down just because they didn't meet an ideal that a very small (if any) percentage of Christian men could reasonably meet. That's kind of what the "Cost of Delaying Marriage" article was talking about.

To be fair though, I think that many guys too also hold out for an unrealistic ideal. Problem is that women have much less time for holding out than men do. Almost always an older man will marry a younger women (average 3-4 years but not uncommon to be 7+ years [Ted Slater married someone 12 years his junior]) but very rarely will it be the other way around.

Robert J Espe you said,

"Candice also accurately suggested that a bitter loaner is probably bitter because they don't like being a loaner, but cynicism won't solve their problem. "

Great thought and one I overall agree with. Spelling is off (should be "l-o-n-e-r") but still a good thought.

Lindsey,

"And thirdly, i can't help but wonder if marrying young is the reason for a 50% divorce rate."

Correlation does not equal causation. However, to answer your question, if anything, just the opposite is occuring. The mean age of first marriages is getting higher (late 20's, almost early now) yet the divorce rate is still fairly high. Although there is evidence to indicatethat those who marry very young (under 20) do face a higher divorce risk, that does not address those in the early to mid 20's.

Andrew (tlw),

Thank you for your comments. I didn't put them in this thread, but I posted elsewhere from a book I read (can't remember the title, but Boundless [Candice Watters specifically] reviewed the book) that since women now are both capable of being independent financially and socially that the main criteria for a husband (other than appearance) is not so much anymore how well he can provide but rather how much of an emotional "fit" he is (i.e. the "soulmate" concept). Furthermore, the soulmate emphasis is much more prevalent and intense among women than it is among men.

And even Christian women (and men) are not immune from this problem. We just repackage and rename the soulmate into "God's choice" which essentially is the same thing: some perfect, complementary person for our lives which God Himself has chosen for us (and hence means we ought to reject all other prospects).

[65. violette said the following at 3:21 AM on Jul 13:]

65

i agree with Joseph.
too many great gals are being strung along by immature dudes! not right. i say stand up and be counted! for the ladies, the male-bashing attitude will take us nowhere! these men are God's children and candidates for heaven too.
peace!

[66. J-Twinkle said the following at 9:26 AM on Jul 13:]

66

Mike,

I agree that women have become more financially independent and socially independent. But I also believe because some of us have bought into a worldly way of thinking about how to use our gifts and talents and how to exert influence in society by denying their femininity and trying to be more like men by not using their intuition, understanding their ability to influence situations to empower others, but completely shutting down their feelings.

I don't buy into the soulmate theory because marriage is a choice. No one twists your hands or arms and says that you must enter a covenant with another human being for the rest of your life. I believe, however, that we must be honest with God and ourselves about our perceptions of what an ideal mate is and really allow God to peel away the immaturity and selfishness in some of our standards. Especially when it comes to our makeup as men and women. Just because men by nature are logical, competitive and goal oriented, doesn't mean that somehow that exempts them from managing and dealing with his emotions. Just because women are nurturing, influential, intuitive, and emotional creatures doesn't mean that we are exempt from putting those characteristics in line with truth and the facts.

I also believe that statistics, unfortunately are things that can be used to pretty much argue anything nowadays. So, let's just stop hiding behind those things and really be truthful about what we think and feel. Let's give others the grace and love to freely express those opinions and feelings without bashing them and disrespecting them.

I think the point is that youth=immaturity and age=wisdom when it comes to why people delay marriage. Let's be real here: those common perceptions are never correct 100% of the time. Why? Because immaturity and wisdom involve several things that have nothing to do with age(such as the choice to grow up and change perspectives, the choice to accept correction and make changes). The Bible has shown plenty of examples of older people who made foolish choices and/or acted foolishly, and also has examples of great leadership and strength of character by the very young. (Aaron and King Josiah are examples).

When we strive to grow and mature as children of God individually on all levels of our lives, stop complaining about the immaturity and inconsistency in other people and start interceding for them, and stop looking at the problem based on our own individual needs and desires but accurately see issues from love and God's wisdom, then we will see change.

I Thessalonians 4:11-12
11Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you, 12so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody

[67. Patricia said the following at 12:42 PM on Jul 13:]

67

I don't think, however, that being married makes one more mature. Often, I've see some immature people marry young-and often pay for it later when they struggle as they grow older. I just don't buy that people who dely marriage are delaying adulthood. Certainly there are various responsibilities that are legitimate avenues of ministry outside of the famil that both men and women can engage in. And often areas that are "worldy" such as business, academia, popular cultre, etc could benefit greatly from Christian witness. Obviously this things cannot become idol, but I don't see delaying children to serve God in other areas as "denying feminity" or being "worldly" or ignoring Biblical examples. Having kids and being married is a ministry, but only one and not the be all end all ministry women can and should engage in.

[68. ptschett said the following at 4:48 PM on Jul 13:]

68

Re: not settling -- for some reason I'm reminded of the article "Faith For The Man He'll Become" from a few months back.

Re: finding someone -- on my bad days I wish I'd been a lot more aggressive about dating than I (and my friends!) thought I was in college. I never dreamed that my first dating relationship, just when I turned 21, would still be my most recent one over 5 years after its end. If you think it's hard enough in a church that has a population of 20-somethings, wait till you land in a church where you ARE that population :)

[69. Candice Watters said the following at 8:51 AM on Jul 14:]

69

Captain Sensible, I'm perplexed that you think Boundless believes both in the widespred "gift of singleness" and a limited "gift of celibacy." Although you wouldn't know it from some of the comments on our blog, the arictles we publish and the blog posts we write consistently fall into the second category. We believe a minority of believers do have the ability, thanks to a spiritual gift, to remain celibate and exchange the benefits of marriage (sex, companionship, children) for the benefits of devoted kingdom service.

We wholeheartedly endorsed Debbie Maken's book, having run both an article by her as well as a review by me. (Getting to Marriage: What You Can Do, http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001254.cfm )

Do you have examples of places where we've muddied the waters on this issue? (not including comments from our readers; that's a different category)

Also, to the commentor who asserted that their are more Christian single women than there are men, he must have missed my article showing with absolute certainty, that such thinking is a myth. The opposite is true. There are more never-married Christian men than there are women. You can read it for yourself, and explore the studies I cited, here: Plenty of Men to Go around ( http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001325.cfm ).

[70. Captain Sensible said the following at 4:02 PM on Jul 14:]

70

Candice - I appreciate your reply, but it is problematic. The problem as I see it is twofold.
1) Never are the comments which spread -- and perpetuate -- the wrong teaching on singleness either addressed or corrected. This is in contrast to many other threads where quite often Ted Slater will step in. Therefore, sadly, any benefit from the initial posting is soon then lost in a haze of confusion.
Boundless appears to be a widely read forum for young Christian singles. As such, it could do much to help right the wrong teaching that is so prevalent in our churches today, but it appears to be to be abdicating its responsibilities very seriously. False teaching is, as you know, taken very seriously in the Bible. If you provide a forum for the spreading of this false teaching, I do not think you are blameless and can just hold your hands up and say "Well, we didn't write that comment". No, but you chose to give it a public platform without correcting the faults in it. Faults that you yourself actually criticised in a post not so long ago, when you appeared bewildered by the wrong thinking that your blog actually helps to spread! I would be very interested to hear the answer that you are intending to give the Lord about this.
2) The second problem I see is the platform you give to Carolyn McCulley. Granted, she usually writes fairly innocuous articles that no one can really disagree with, but in publicising this writer you are also publicising her book which is full of wrong teaching about "Esteeming the gift" ie. singleness. Her blog too, often contains unhelpful links and materials that again perpetuate the wrong thinking.
I would like to see Boundless stand firm against all this wrong teaching. The internet and blogging is a very new medium and as such I appreciate that we are all learning. But to continue to post unhelpful comments -- without bothering to correct them -- is biblically inexcusable, in my opinion. In my mind it is akin to a Pastor giving his talk in church, and then going to get his lunch while his talk is then thrown open to "comments". Would that be right? Would that be helpful to the congregation? Or is there a danger that they will end up leaving in a more confused state than when they came in?
Regarding your point that there are more single Christian men than women, I am curious: When was the last time you went to church? Sorry, but it is mind-bogglingly obvious that women outnumber men in our churches by a significant margin and I seem to recall that there were blog postings that refuted your mathematical conclusions at the time that your article was posted.

[71. Ted Slater said the following at 9:50 PM on Jul 14:]

71

Captain Sensible -- you wrote that Carolyn McCulley "usually writes fairly innocuous articles that no one can really disagree with."

I pray you consider what I'm about to write with superhuman humility. Here goes....

I think that sentence I quoted from you identifies your problem precisely. Instead of considering how you and others might benefit from something we publish, you've placed yourself in the role of "critic." Carolyn has written many significantly helpful articles, addressing fear of man, how a single woman might evaluate a single man's "trajectory," how women can attract men through humility, how to graciously tell a guy "no," and the benefit of examining our hearts when we find ourselves responding poorly in difficult situations. Instead of gaining a heart of wisdom through her work, you stand aloof with arms crossed, looking closely for anything about which you disagree. And in the process, you miss a lot of God's blessing. And worse, you may be putting yourself between God's blessing and others.

It doesn't help that you hide behind a pseudonym ("Captain Sensible"), rather than open yourself up to real fellowship.

Listen -- we agree on many things: that "timely" marriage is a good thing, that God has called most of us to enjoy marriage, that the "gift of singleness" is misunderstood by most, that oftentimes the reasons people delay marrying is due to sin (at least in my case), and so on. It's my prayer that you stop the distant condemnation and join the fellowship of believers in extolling the good. Jump in, the water's fine, my friend.

[72. BDB said the following at 10:25 PM on Jul 14:]

72

Captain Sensible wrote:

>>I would like to see Boundless stand firm against all this wrong teaching.<<

Hmmm...let's try another tack.

I vote that Boundless does the opposite of what Captain Sensible wants. My vote should cancel his out, right?

The Boundless blog, as constructed, does an excellent job of putting important ideas on the table. There is a surprisingly wide cross-section of Christianity that has shown up for the discussion. I've never seen Catholics and Calvinists mix it up like this. Most of the Catholics and Calvinists I've asked about this know nothing about each other's beliefs. (By the way, you get a really funny reaction when asking a Catholic if they're Calvinist or Arminian.)

A blog is not "teaching," so there is no "teacher" to correct - just a moderator to keep things civil.

And over the last few months Ted has done a great job of stepping back, moderating more and advocating less.

[73. Captain Sensible said the following at 8:34 AM on Jul 15:]

73

Is it wrong to condemn false teaching, Ted? No doubt even the Pharisees had some good things to say you know…but that didn’t stop Jesus being very frank with them!
I notice how you seem to feel that defending your personal friend, Carolyn McCulley, and condemning my use of a pseudonym, are both more important than addressing my main point?
BDB has addressed it though, and made a good point, saying: “A blog is not ‘teaching’ so there is no ‘teacher’ to correct.”
This is a very fair comment. We are all in the process of working out how best to use blogging for the glory of God (yes, me included!).
My argument is that giving a public platform to enable false teaching to be spread (even if not actually “teaching” itself) is still irresponsible.
Not all blogs feel that they need to give space to comments that are unhelpful. Some have a very strict commenting policy, for the very reason that they don’t want to spread the unhelpful thinking that comes from wrong teaching. In fact, Carolyn McCulley’s policy on comments used to be along those very lines, and actually, I agree with her on that!
But there are double standards on Boundless, because you, Ted, do step in to correct comments at times. Sometimes even on fairly trivial issues.
However you never correct the McCullley-esque type of thinking on "the gift of singleness" which Boundless apparently disagrees with.
Why is that?

[74. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:14 AM on Jul 15:]

74

Captain Sensible you said,

"My argument is that giving a public platform to enable false teaching to be spread (even if not actually “teaching” itself) is still irresponsible."

To be honest, I think this is a fairly weak argument and even a bit naive.

First, it is clear that Boundless allows posts on their blog. Secondly, they've repeatedly said that they post inputs (often with no or little editing) even if they are in disagreement with the author's opinion on the subject. Considering you yourself have posted multiple times I'm sure you are aware that this "platform" exists. Not only that, but that you seem to condone the system; otherwise you wouldn't be posting here.

Most I speculate would agree that if everyone agreed with everything posted it would make for a very boring blog and furthermore would not accomplish one of its goals: the exchange of ideas in a controlled manner. This also would apply if the Boundless staff were to post only comments which were in agreement with them.

Your other argument is focused on "false teaching". The problem is what you consider as "false" another may view as "true" or maybe a grey area with no clear cut answer. In order for you to prove a post made by the author or a commenter is false you must provide sufficient evidence that it is so. Otherwise it still remains an opinion. And frankly, when it comes to most of the posts here, they are very hard to prove absolutely false.

I will say though that your comment regarding past editor intervention is legitimate. Although it did not happen on a regular basis and has diminished in recent months, there were times I thought the editors were "breaking their own rules". Meaning they would post a blog, someone would post a dissenting comment, then the editor would essentially slam him for making it (not simply clarifying their position but essentially saying "you are wrong"). I remember once Ted even put words in someone's mouth replying in a very cynical matter writing "let me finish the sentence for you...". And no one likes having another person put words into their mouth. Fortunately, as BDB points out, such slamming has drastically decreased.

Finlly regarding Carolyn McCulley, I haven't read any of her books (just articles published on Boundless), and don't visit her blog much, but even you admit most of what she writes is "innocuous". I would hope it would be more than such to many readers. Not just innocuous, but beneficial. The point though is that I very rarely (if ever) accept all of one person's teachings/ideas as absolutely true. That is reserved for God alone. I simply read/listen to someone's position, identify what I agree with, what I don't (and why), and then formulate my own conclusions on the matter. Again, unless you can show Carolyn as a whole teaching things which are clearly contrary to the Bible, you cannot dismiss her opinions as "absolutely false".

The only time I had a serious beef with an author that Boundless published is Scott Croft and his "Biblical Dating" ideas. Having heard his speeches in person and read his articles I did not like the fact that he implied his methodology was the only "right" model for finding a spouse and that conventional dating was "wrong". He might say otherwise, but to use the term Biblical in regards to dating does imply that other methods are somehow inferior or less in line with God's will.

Sorry for the length, but thought this might be useful. I would still welcome your comments though, even if they are dissents.

[75. k. said the following at 2:57 PM on Jul 15:]

75

I was surprised to see the comment about 'false teaching.' I always understood that false teaching requires an element of authority, and I seriously question whether Boundless has anything approaching authority--to me, it seems more about facilitating conversation among young believers. At most, I would say they have misguided opinions, not false teaching. (They'd probably say the same of me, which is fine.)

It's reasonable to assume that the readers here are adults capable of forming their own opinions and making their own decisions. Do we need to be cookie-cutter Christians? I noticed that CS later shifted his argument to, "giving a public platform to enable false teaching to be spread (even if not actually “teaching” itself) is still irresponsible." That's ridiculous; Christians should be able to hold some varying opinions and beliefs, and also to discuss them. If Boundless were to start saying that Jesus was a really great guy but got things wrong sometimes, that might concern me. But as it is, I can roll my eyes and go on with life when they start blathering about "working like a man," or global warming, or the importance of marrying and having children young, or other issues that I think they get wrong. They don't agree with me, I don't agree with them, and I don't think it will keep any of us awake nights.

Also, saying that each comment should be evaluated and corrected for "unhelpful thinking"--based on the moderator's opinions--is veering into dangerous Big Brother territory. What if one of the moderators becomes convinced Jesus told us all to be vegans, and immediately started blasting any comment that refers to meat on the grounds that meat eating=false teaching?? Boundless is already a bit heavy-handed with censoring comments, and I really can't see that becoming more so is either warranted or desirable.

[76. NeedACatchyName said the following at 3:00 PM on Jul 15:]

76

Captain Sensible said:
Sorry, but it is mind-bogglingly obvious that women outnumber men in our churches by a significant margin.

Are you basing this conclusion on local observation or statistics? If your area or church is lacking in men, that doesn't mean that all areas and all churches are lacking in men. I'm not too familiar with the situation outside of the United States, so if you live in a different country, I'm afraid I'm probably not knowledgeable about the situation there. But my experience in the U.S. is that the number of Christian men vs. Christian women seems to be more or less equal as a nationwide average (as Candice's research shows), but with wide local variances. So some areas have a high number of Christian men and a low number of Christian women, whereas the situation is reversed in other areas, but if you look at the nationwide average, it all balances out.

Believe it or not, I always thought that there were more men than women in churches because that's how it always was in my area. I was rather shocked when I found this blog to find out that wasn't the case everywhere else. :)

Of course, if you live somewhere other than the U.S. your situation may be different, but keep in mind that the vast, vast majority of Boundless posters are Americans so they'll be posting from the point of view with which they're most familiar.

[77. Jim said the following at 5:06 PM on Jul 15:]

77

I can't help but get irritated when I hear the same women that unceasingly bash men complain that men don't want to marry them.

A woman that bashes men is saying to the world that she believes women are better than men, but because she wants to get married, she will put up with a guy who is "decent" enough to put on her shelf.

For a guy like me, those women are a BIG no-no. In no way will I have anything to do with them.

As to all of you women who complain that you want to be pursued, you are like a fish staring at a worm dangling right in front of you, but you won't bite unless someone else puts it in your mouth for you. It's RIGHT THERE, why not just take it for yourself?

I find myself single at a late stage. I contemplated suicide when I found that I was still single at 25. Obviously I made it past that year, but each day is a struggle to maintain, and being single is certainly NOT a gift. There are men that want to be married, but I don't ever see myself as having that opportunity. I could easily blame women on this, as many women blame men for not being married. But it is only ourselves we have to blame. I would guess that most of the complainers here are overweight, or have some other physical flaw that makes people "undateable". It is really the mindset that only someone fit for a magazine cover is suitable for dating or marriage that is to blame. People turn to God to find someone who will forgive them their physical inadequacy, yet at the same time be physically perfect as well. I really believe that this would turn around most effectively, if communities would do more to get all of the fat people into shape. That is my solution.

[78. KendraW said the following at 9:38 PM on Jul 15:]

78

I definitely agree with being willing to jump out into the waters and try new things. It's part of why my parents got married and why they still enjoy going and doing things together now.

I'm a post-college, still single woman moving to a new city for graduate work this fall. I had the opportunity to have gotten married before I turned eighteen but it definitely would have been the wrong thing. I spent four years at a Christian University without ever being asked out by a Christian guy. I'm okay with this because I trust in God. Two of my cousins, one a speech pathologist and the other a physician's assistant and both in there upper twenties have been praying about their singleness and God has brought wonderful gentlemen into their lives.

One of the things I disagree with is the statement that a girl must hold out for a guy that is more spiritually mature than she is. I've seen it work where the girl was more mature in the beginning and the guy grew into the leadership role. I think that's the point of the article Faith for the Man He'll Become.

I worry that too many times we set our standards way too high for a potential partner. My only set in stone requirements are that he's Christian and male. :D Everything else would fall under preference and those can be altered.

On the other discussion going on, I don't feel that Boundless airing views that are contradictory to their own serves as promoting false teachings. I'm another one grateful for the fact that they allow discussion to take place fairly freely. I like hearing differing points of view which I consider rather refreshing and I can learn from.

Though I still don't think that Before He Cheats falls in as a lone ranger song, it's definitely more about a reaction to infidelity in a relationship, immature maybe, but not crusading for all women to be single and bitter.

[79. Adam said the following at 9:53 PM on Jul 15:]

79

>> I really believe that this would turn around most effectively, if communities would do more to get all of the fat people into shape. <<

There are an excessive amount of fat people in America, and I agree with your blunt, unapologetic approach. However, I do think that that should be for another article as this article's popularity seems to be dwindling.

[80. DannieA said the following at 10:22 PM on Jul 15:]

80

Jim

"I would guess that most of the complainers here are overweight, or have some other physical flaw that makes people "undateable"."

Uh I've run 3 marathons, 6 half marathons and dozens of 5K and 10K races. I'm in my late 20s and still not married. I don't think it would be fair to assume that ALL women who wish they were married were couch potatoes who weigh 300 lbs.

[81. jcs said the following at 10:31 PM on Jul 15:]

81

"being single is certainly NOT a gift. There are men that want to be married, but I don't ever see myself as having that opportunity."

Jim, are you the same "Jim" who wrote this on another thread:

"When you have kids, you can kiss your life goodbye. You are now living only for your kids. One reason I am not married is due to the life ending consequences of having kids."

It's hard to tell on blogs like this, because users don't log in.

I ask this because, in your post, you're insinuating that you can't get married because women don't find you attractive. However, if you're the same person as the other "Jim", your attitudes may have a lot to do with your singleness.

[82. Christine said the following at 9:29 AM on Jul 16:]

82

Jim,
I think that you're a little harsh in your statements. Yes, weight is something that we can (and should) work to control. However, not all single women are struggling with their weight and to insinuate that is to be pretty judgmental.

Also, as a person with a birth defect, I find your statements about other physical flaws that make people undateable to be a little out of line. Yes, I'm sure that there are people who won't date me because of it (you can't hide my "flaw" for long). However, I have dated several guys and none of those relationships ended because of my birth defect. I've only had one guy express any concerns about it. I'm not going to pray for God to change this. I did as a kid and now I feel like this is my thorn. God is powerful enough to change this, but I'm not expecting Him to do so. Please don't judge those of us with physical disabilities. If you're not able or willing to date us, that's fine, but there are people who will and who do. Your lack of attraction does not doom us to a life of singleness.

[83. Melissa said the following at 9:54 AM on Jul 16:]

83

As a young single just beginning to look on the relationship horizon, hopefully this will still make sense.

It sounded to me like the point of the post was to discourage women (yes, women) from letting disparaging views of men ruin their perceptions of how a godly relationship and marriage can be. Just because songs proclaim that men these days all are cheaters and womanizers doesn't mean that it's true nor that a Christian woman should fall into believing that lie.

Maybe I'm being naive here, but I didn't think the point was to say that bad/nonexistent relationships are exclusively a woman's fault. But believing such pervasive lies invites hesitance and bitterness in women whose experience has only been divorce, being degraded, and defrauding relationships.

In point: guys as a species aren't becoming faithful, godly men, and women are buying into the lie that every guy is a loser like so many with whom they've been in contact.

[84. xeres said the following at 11:41 AM on Jul 16:]

84

interesting...it seems that the Church has some sort of schizophenia regarding their view of American Christian women (even Boundless is guilty with this). In regards to problems with dating/courtship whether it's the DTR, the situations that occur in the relationship or break-ups, women are portrayed as victims and guys are the source of drama. Think about it. Things seems to go wrong when the guy makes a mistake or something like. However, when dealing with difficulty of upholding Christian virtues and values, it is the Christian women who ended getting bashed. I mean, women are often picked on dealing with issues of modesty, the disregard of family and human life, and my favs the shortage of men in churches or the church being too feminine. I know that's a big of a assertion but this is what's really going on. What does anyone think?

[85. Jim said the following at 4:09 PM on Jul 16:]

85

In no way was I judging anyone. I was simply stating what seems to me to be the viewpoint of many "christian" singles. There are too many people that aren't willing to accept anything other than what society tells them is beautiful. What unfortunately gets overlooked is how much in common men and women have in this. What else gets overlooked is that many, but not all, of these people could change themselves. They could change themselves and get exactly what they want, but instead become furious at the rest of the world for not changing to suit them.

I was just trying to get at the point that were people to look in at themselves more often when they have problems instead of trying to blame everyone else, we wouldn't see so many people having this problem.

[86. Christine said the following at 9:32 PM on Jul 16:]

86

Thanks for the clarification, Jim. I can agree with what you said in it. =)

[87. Robin said the following at 11:22 PM on Oct 14:]

87

Candace: I read your article "Plenty of Men to Go Around," and am curious if you also got the racial/ethnic breakdown of Barna's data.

I ask as a single Christian black woman, age 32. I'm active in church ministry service, attractive, well-domesticated (i.e. I cook, clean, sew, crochet, etc.), well-educated and am ready to be married. Have been for years, but have never received a proposal. The last relationship I was in ended two years ago with a Christian man who, by his own admission, strung me along for two years, leading me we were on the road to marriage.

Being a wonderful wife and a good mother are my two greatest aspirations in life. My parents are wonderful role models for marriage (married at age 22 for 35 years next August), and my younger brother married last year at age 27.

What would you have to say to scores of marriage-minded, Christian black women like me, knowing the challenges of the availability of "quality" marriageable men that do exist for us?