Not The Exception
by Ted Slater on 06/11/2007 at 12:55 PM
In high school I spent days working on mathematical proofs that everyone knew were impossible. I was confident that if anyone could break through, it would be me. I consistently earned the highest grades in math and science, earning an A+ in Geometry and acing the Physics final (though in an act of retro cockiness I used a slide rule rather than a calculator like everyone else).
I was a Slater, the son of a renown physician, and we were different. Better.
In college I'd spend my time reading Kierkegaard and Unamuno and Tillich and Bloch and Heidegger and Kant and Wittgenstein and Emerson and Thoreau and Lewis and Schaeffer and Chesterton and McDowell ... and others. I was driven to master Truth, and wouldn't settle for what everyone around me believed. I became a regular columnist for the university student newspaper. I was told that sometimes when a column of mine was published whole class periods would be spent discussing what I'd written.
Of course. I was a Slater.
At the end of one of my courses in grad school, one of my professors called me an "overachiever." I wasn't surprised. I earned straight A's in grad school, graduating with two master's degrees. Straight A's except for one class. I was indignant when I received an A- in a short story writing class, and I challenged the grade in writing. Slaters don't get A minuses.
Except that I did.
About that time, as my academic years came to a close and I found myself spending more time with friends who didn't have advanced degrees, the Lord began a new work on my heart. He started showing me (primarily through church, not that A-) that there are some things more important than intellectual accomplishment. He was showing me that such things as relationship and godliness and heart and obedience and humility were more important than what I'd been pursuing. He was showing me that it's more important to engage in a church service, for example, than to evaluate it. That participating in Christian community is more important than criticizing the Church. That it's more important to put into practice the kindness of Jesus and to pursue Him than to master theology.
He was teaching me that Slaters are really not all that special. I'm not all that exceptional, other than that it's taken me a bit longer to learn the importance of something more significant than knowledge.
I still find myself struggling to be superior, of course. While it's not a bad thing to want to honor the Lord with the "talents" He's given me, it is a sin to see myself as somehow "special." A sin.
So now, when I'm tempted to think of myself as "the exception," I remind myself that it's probably more accurate to describe myself as a simple sinner. A human in need of grace just like the next guy. And together we make up a body for whom Christ will lovingly return some day.
Yeah, I'm a Slater. An ordinary Slater in need of the Lord's extraordinary love.
1. xeres said the following at 1:05 PM on Jun 11:
Thanks for being transparent with us readers, Ted. Like everyone else, I have the tendencies to believe I'm more special just because I have certain abilities that no one else has or that my father come from a prominent family in the Philippines (His family isn't wealthly or famous but they are well-respected in his hometown). When it comes down to it, I'm in need of grace just like everyone else.
2. v@v said the following at 1:53 PM on Jun 11:
"He was showing me that it's more important to engage in a church service, for example, than to evaluate it. That participating in Christian community is more important than criticizing the Church. That it's more important to put into practice the kindness of Jesus and to pursue Him than to master theology..." Beautifully said.
Sure, debate is intillectually stimulating, and has it's place. But criticism, rather than seeking truth, can be a waste. Despite our intellectual abilities, beautiful as they may be, the world doesn't need another philosopher -- it has enough. What it does need however, is someone who can testify of the the life-giving, life-chaning work of the Cross. Someone who can say, with certaintly and conviction, "I vow to know nothing but Christ crucified". Because it is Christ, and *not* the dozens of philosophy and sociology, or even theology books that currently line my shelves, that has saved me.
3. John M. said the following at 2:55 PM on Jun 11:
"In high school I spent days working on mathematical proofs that everyone knew were impossible". And I thought I was a geek....
"It's more important to engage in a church service, for example, than to evaluate it. That participating in Christian community is more important than criticizing the Church. That it's more important to put into practice the kindness of Jesus and to pursue Him than to master theology"
This is all true, but I think we can take it too far. Doctrine has value, and it's difficult to sit by and let it be mangled. Obviously speaking out (or even "thinking" out) carries a great danger of pride. I think it's just important to pick our battles.
4. k. said the following at 3:01 PM on Jun 11:
I think it can be a long struggle for those of us in the Type A, overachieving camp to realize that we're not as special as we think we are. Fortunately, if there's one thing life is good at, it's smoothing off those particular rough edges.
5. Jethro said the following at 4:02 PM on Jun 11:
Sometimes it's not about being 'special' though. The fact is, some people are smarter than others and some people are better at certain things than other people. Ted, you're obviously good at maths. There is no need to act otherwise. Really, this is only problematic if you think that being better at maths actually makes you 'better' than the other person.
In any case, I
6. Anna said the following at 4:27 PM on Jun 11:
I often find myself with this same struggle, especially when I am home from college, and working in an environment where most of my coworkers are less educated than I am. Am I going to treat them with an attitude of pride and condescension because I have been blessed with the opportunity for a post-secondary education? Humility is an oh-so-necessary struggle.
7. Jason W said the following at 4:35 PM on Jun 11:
Being intellectual Ted, do you struggle with matters requiring faith?
8. BrooX said the following at 4:52 PM on Jun 11:
Unique and beautiful and special yet tarnished, dirty, grimy, and all the same. I do like that one, K. - life being like a tumbler, loaded with all kinds of ordinary-looking rocks and abrasiveness. The unique, polished beauty shows after a good time of being knocked around and abrading against one another, smoothing those rough edges.
Ted, maybe you shoudn't give up on those proofs just yet; I suspect there might be a few good sermon lead-ins with some of those 'impossible' proofs. :)
9. Samuel PG said the following at 6:44 PM on Jun 11:
Thanks Ted for your confession of sorts. As a theology student and overachiever I can really relate to your situation. God has been convicting me lately in a similar way. I have always been one who has found it especially easy to see faults within the Church whether it be the universal church, the Western church or the local church (although, as it turns out, there is nothing unique at all about having the ability to locate faults in others). Good theology is of immense importance and practice faithful to Christ is a must and therefore these things are worth dialoguing about and pursuing truth. At the same time, Christ has convicted me that simply being critical, negative or divisive toward the Church or other Christians is sinful.
Paul makes it abundantly clear that quarrels are not only unhealthy for the Church but that quarrelsome person do not deserve to have positions of authority within the Church (just type "quarrels" into BibleGateway). The Book of Revelation refers to Satan as "the accuser of the brethren" (Rev. 12:10). If I become an accuser of my fellow saints, whose side am I assisting? In Romans 17:17-18, Paul warns the Church to keep away from those people who cause division, and much of 1 Corinthians is devoted to maintaining loving unity within the Church.
There are many more passages that apply, but the point is that the Holy Spirit convicts me that when I am negative or critical toward the members of the Church without having a strong intention of the criticism bringing blessing with it, I am acting as an enemy of my Lord. It is a scary, and terribly frightening, thought.
10. Ted Slater said the following at 8:22 PM on Jun 11:
Jason asked if I "struggle with matters requiring faith."
That's a great question, Jason. Let me try to answer it in two ways:
1) I no longer question if Jesus is God, if what He preached is true, if what Scripture says about Him is historically accurate, whether He is involved in the affairs of men (including myself) and so on. I've spent many years exploring those questions, and my research and experience have shown me that I'm no fool to trust completely in the Jesus spoken of in the Bible. He's won my heart.
2) "Faith" really means "trust." So the question you're asking could be whether I struggle trusting God, or following something I believe is from God, or obeying Him and His Word when times get rough and evidence of Him is thin or absent.
The answer there is "I try." When I had cancer a few years ago, after the initial fear and questioning (not "why me" but "how did this happen" and "what might God be telling me through this"), I frankly was surprised to find how joyful I was. Though I've never really surfed, I imagine that what I felt was kind of like when a surfer catches the perfect wave. I was moving along on the cutting edge of God's will, acutely aware of life and of His relevance and of the reality of His promises, including Heaven. It was invigorating. I'd say that I didn't struggle with "faith" at that time; God held me so close that it wasn't an issue.
A couple of years ago I was laid off from a job I loved. After several months of doing freelance projects, I had the distinct impression that I should get hold of Candice Watters, a friend of mine from grad school that I hadn't spoken with in many years, and ask her if she had any job leads. Turns out that just the day before I sent her an email, she had stumbled across a copy of my master's thesis that I'd given her some nine years earlier and was wondering what I was up to. Half a year after that initial email, my wife and I sold our home in Virginia and drove out to Colorado Springs. Then, a few days later, I was ... offered the job as editor of Boundless. "Faith"? Kind of. More like we just knew that this what the Lord had for us.
In other areas I don't demonstrate much faith. I get mad when a piece of legislation goes through that I think stinks. I get mad when the guy in front of me is driving 10 miles an hour below the speed limit. I get mad when my software isn't intuitive or when it crashes. In each of these cases, I'm lacking the faith that God is sovereign, that He has alotted these things to "jostle my heart" and develop character and patience in me.
So, often in the day-to-day things I lack faith. But not because the evidence for God's existence and kindness aren't abundant, but because I'm selfish and prone to sin.
Does that answer some of your question, Jason, or am I way off base? If you've got questions along the lines of #1 above, I'd recommend anything by Ravi Zacharias, such as Jesus Among Other Gods or some of the resources on his website. If you have questions along the lines of #2, I'd recommend you find a good church and find some godly men to hang out with. ;-)
11. Ted Slater said the following at 8:42 PM on Jun 11:
Jason, let me join C.S. Lewis in saying that many of the great philosophical questions people have are just silly, and I don't wrestle with them (though I may try to taken the person seriously who does wrestle with them). They don't vex my heart. I don't even bother with them, frankly.
Many of them are like the questions C.S. Lewis posed: "What color is triangle?" "What shape is purple?" Meaningless, meant only to tickle the questioner's imagination and distract from meaningful questions like, "Where did 'meaning' come from?" and "Who will deliver me from this body of death?"
12. Kelly said the following at 9:19 PM on Jun 11:
Thank you for sharing this - it resonates so much with me. I've always prided myself on being ahead of the rest, the overachiever, the 'winner'.
I have a related question for you. I'm in groups of academics who take great pride on being 'smarter than the rest of the world'. Knowing these people (some who claim to be Christians) has greatly impacted my faith... in a negative way.
In short, they've tried to outsmart God, pointing out Biblical inconsistencies, stating that a God who really was all-powerful and all-knowing wouldn't make it so difficult to understand his Word, and only those who are higher level thinkers and look BEYOND the human interpretation of the Bible can understand God's true nature.
I'm really struggling with this lately. Have any of the commenters been through a similar crisis of faith?
13. mtb said the following at 9:53 PM on Jun 11:
Thanks for blogging on this subject! This is something I have recently struggled with, so just reading this has encouraged me to stay humble and recognize that I'm "not the exception" either. It's way too easy to become critical of everyone else rather than just seeing and accepting God's grace at work in each of us, myself definitely included. This blog reminds me of 2 Corinthians 10 which says to make our thoughts obedient to Christ and also says that he who boasts should boast in the Lord. That really puts things into perspective.
14. Samuel PG said the following at 10:56 PM on Jun 11:
Kelly, although many intellectuals and simply intelligent people (including some of the most brilliant humans in history) have believed the truth of the Bible and especially the Gospel message, the vast witness of history seems to contradict the statement,
"that a God who really was all-powerful and all-knowing wouldn't make it so difficult to understand his Word, and only those who are higher level thinkers and look BEYOND the human interpretation of the Bible can understand God's true nature."
In fact, the vast majority of believers throughout the history of the Church have been ordinary people with ordinary levels of intellect. Look at some of the most famous enemies of the Church and discover that they many of them were very intelligent. The Scriptures themselves predict that this will happen, that those people who are most recognized by the world for intelligence, influence, etc. would be the very people who would be confounded by the Gospel while the simple people would receive the wisdom of God. Look at 1 Cor 1:18-31 and 2:14. Just like the message of the rest of the Bible, God opposes the proud but blesses the humble. Those who have great intelligence, wealth, influence, talent, etc. are more likely to be consumed with vanity and pride and to set themselves up as gods in their own eyes.
The problem is not that God has hidden His truth from the common man, but that God hides His truth from those who pridefully refuse to see it.
In looking at these passages, we should also note that it never indicates that any person can get "BEYOND the human interpretation of the Bible" on their own, but that it is only by the enlightening of the Holy Spirit that anyone can understand the Scriptures. Although your friends may reject it, you might encourage them to try humbling themselves in prayer asking God to help them to understand the Scripture. They might balk at doing so, but at least then you can show them that it is a matter of their will and not their intellect that prevents them from understanding what God wants to make plain.
15. BDB said the following at 12:01 AM on Jun 12:
Kelly wrote:
>>I'm really struggling with this lately. Have any of the commenters been through a similar crisis of faith?<<
Try C.S. Lewis' "The Abolition of Man." It's short and easy to read. It also takes on many of those "great thinkers" and will point you towards other resources. Lewis really is the best for intellectual Christians. Because he can best all his opponents...
16. Brittany said the following at 12:03 AM on Jun 12:
I think this is a great read. Ted, between you and some comments, you've hit some important topics about us Type A personalities. I am one of those types, and I'm in the military as an officer, so my profession exudes it. I didn't realize the extent of my overachieving until a recent professional course I had to attend. Yet, what was interesting that came out of it is, that in my overachieving, in my pursuit of excellence, at least in the past few years, probably since my Junior year of college...I've realized that it's not about me. We are not "special" of our own right. But what we do have is a blessing from God of passion, enthusiasm and a desire to pursue excellence that, if rightly directed, and the praise rightly given can further the kingdom of God. I am amazed at some of the things and opportunities that have come my way, and people have attributed them to me. But I know that the reason it has happened is because God is true with His promises. We are to give our all in things for His glory, and when we do that, when we apply our talents, our energies, and our passions to encompass what God has given us to do, results come because of Him. My personality will not allow for me to not pursue excellence. I have learned there are times I need to "be still and know," and there are times when I face frustrations (the Iraq war for one--seeing it from the inside is frustrating) with my job and roadblocks to what I am trying to do, and I have to step back and ask God--Lord, what am I to do here, where do I focus my energies, where do I focus my passions?" And He always comes through. Yes, we are not special, we are ordinary when we are without Him. But for those of us that are the driven type, He made us that way for a reason, and if we allow Him to mold us and direct that for HIS glory, not our own, spectacular things happen and the excellence that people see come from us can be a tool that He uses to draw people to Him if we, again, direct the glory and praise to God. We need to show that those "extraordinary" things that happen, come from an extraordinary God working through ordinary people.
Great discussion, hits close to home for me.
17. JamesUK said the following at 6:17 AM on Jun 12:
The problem with Gods gift of intellect is, in my experience, that the more you know, the more you want to know. But the more you do know, the more you realise that there are certain things about the creation and us and Gods plan in general that just don’t seem to make sense. With regards to a personal experience, I’ve just finished my studies at Oxford here in the UK and I can distinctly remember the feeling from last year when I found out my results. I didn’t get a first, but I did get a good 2:1 (for those who don’t know the way it works here is the top is a 1st, 2.1, and 2.2, 3rd and then a fail). But my response surprised me. I just didn’t care. All the hours studying, cramming in the library, feeling a little sick before wandering down to the exam schools ( a large antiquated building where we sit out paper)and all I was left with was a feeling of well….nothing.
So not only can knowledge be oppressive (Psalm 73:16) it neither satisfies nor give any meaning; not without reason does the Teacher of Ecclesiastes label it meaningless. So in truth the only thing we may do is, as our lord said, “Seek first His kingdom and all will be given to you”. Hope this helps, off to write a sermon on Numbers. Wish me luck!!
18. Patricia said the following at 6:41 AM on Jun 12:
Kelly, I am surrounded by academics and at times have struggled with the validity of scripture. I've come to the point where I simply accept that scripture is the word of God because otherwise I could continually critique and find flaws in the construction of the Bible, inconsistencies in the text, yet. To me, studying the Bible is different than I would approach an academic book. It is a living, breathing document that speaks to me directly. Accepting the Bible is part of my trust and faith in God. I especially appreciate one line in Communion services at my church-let us proclaim the mystery of our faith, because I think faith is mysterious. It's something different than academic knowledge.
19. kman said the following at 7:33 AM on Jun 12:
"there is nothing unique at all about having the ability to locate faults in others"
I'll add that it's a LAZY as well, it's too easy. That goes for myself as well.
Remove the plank from your own eye first..
20. Adam Sloop said the following at 8:36 AM on Jun 12:
As Christians it is a good reminder to always remember we are the Body of Christ. Take a look at 1 Cor Chapter 12. The only reason we are given different talents and gifts is to serve the Lord and be useful in the body. So our talents/brillance/gifts are nothing to brag about, we must only see ourselves as tools that God wants to use. In being a tool we must also understand we have limitations that others exceed in, thus creating a common need for each other thus giving glory to the Father. Jesus was the ultimate tool of God's glory, but he submitted himself to flesh and even death on the cross. He did not see his unity with God as him being speacial, He humbled himself to die for us all. If anyone had something to be proud of it was Jesus because He was God, but he was humble.
21. Candice said the following at 9:16 AM on Jun 12:
I've often held the same opinion of myself - I used to think it was the first born perfectionist in me, but now I see that was clearly an excuse and a cover up of pride - thanks for sharing your struggles and growth patterns with us.
As we develop the characteristics of grace and humility, may we grow ever closer to Christ and be an encouragement to those around us.
On another note - I've enjoyed Boundless for some time now...growing up on a steady diet of Focus, I am thrilled to be ministered to in this way during this time in my life.
Keep up the great work!
-Candice, NH
22. Ken said the following at 9:53 AM on Jun 12:
It is but the simplest acts that produce the greatest fruit.
Look at Mother Teresa. Very simple philosophy.
"Jesus called us to be faithful, not successful."
She prays and asks the Father what needs to be done and goes to it.
Now that's greatness!
I really did appreciate what was said here. Too many times we get caught up in what we think is best criticizing people and entities to no end.
23. Mark Willard said the following at 10:17 AM on Jun 12:
Ted, thanks for the post. I definitely felt convicted when reading it. I also want to join with John M. and Samuel PG in stating that while it's true in some sense that "it's more important to put into practice the kindness of Jesus and to pursue Him than to master theology," that statement can be taken to a dangerous extreme. Let's not forget that theology is literally "the knowledge of God." When you try to separate knowing God from following him, you're likely to end up with "a new kind of Christian" that cares about others' earthly needs and opposes human trafficking and supports AIDS relief (all of which are good)... but also believes that God doesn't know the future, humans are basically good, and thinks that there's nothing wrong with homosexual behavior. When one claims to follow Jesus without getting involved in such "petty concerns" as theology, we have to wonder if they know God at all. We shouldn't minimize the importance that Jesus Himself put on knowledge. (cf. John 8:32 & John 17:17 -- I'd also make the point that if you don't know the truth, you'll be less able to do what is most loving for other people; namely, point them to the Truth. I don't think we have to choose between knowledge and good works.) I'm not in any way saying that this is what you were driving towards Ted, or that I disagree with anything you said, I just wanted to add a caution.
Kelly, I've struggled with these things myself. In addition to the good advice that's already been posted, I'd like to offer three lines of thought in response to the intellectuals:
"they've tried to outsmart God, pointing out Biblical inconsistencies"
There are two ways one can approach the Bible -- as being judged by it (Hebrews 4:12) or as judge over it. The former leads to life and understanding. The latter leads to apparent contradiction and error. When you're looking for problems, you'll find them. Many books have been written about the supposed "contradictions" in the Bible. I'd recommend Hard Sayings of the Bible by Kaiser Jr., Davids, Bruce, & Brauch.
"a God who really was all-powerful and all-knowing wouldn't make it so difficult to understand his Word"
How do they have any idea what the all-knowing, all-powerful God would do? Are they all-knowing or all-powerful? Are they "smarter than" all-knowing? See Isaiah 55:8-9
"only those who are higher level thinkers and look BEYOND the human interpretation of the Bible can understand God's true nature."
Look beyond to what? If God is indeed all-knowing and all-powerful and therefore beyond us, how would we have any hope of knowing Him apart from Him making himself known to us? A transcendent, perfect God who is wholly beyond us is not One that can be deduced through philosophy. The only way we can know Him is through His own self-revelation. He claims to have given us this self-revelation in Scripture. One could argue that Scripture is not God's self-revelation, but to argue that we can know God apart from it through our own thinking is utterly foolish.
24. ejp said the following at 11:14 AM on Jun 12:
Ah, the joys of coming from an overachieving family! I'm not the daughter of a famous physicist, but there are some great men and women in my ancestry that I've always aspired to emulate. I haven't tried to be "the best" out of everyone, but I have tried to stretch the limits of my abilities and opportunities. My struggle with criticism is that I see the ways in which I and others are not fully using our gifts. I get frustrated with friends who waste intelligence and ability in video games and selfish entertainment. I get angry with myself when I care more about my reputation than using my contacts to reach others for Christ. I also get frustrated when I see Christians (including myself) failing to truly reach out to and connect with those who are hurting, questioning and needing love. It's easy to say, "Oh you just need faith." or "Why don't you read CS Lewis" (no offense to those who say this, I love him too), instead of taking the risk of sharing our own struggles and conclusions on the subject.
At the same time, I've had to come to the realization that many people are struggling just to get through life. Some people are smarter, but intellect isn't God's measuring rod. I am often more inspired by the sincere faith of a simple person, than the eloquent sermon of a great preacher.
25. BDB said the following at 12:10 PM on Jun 12:
ejp wrote:
>>"Why don't you read CS Lewis" (no offense to those who say this, I love him too), instead of taking the risk of sharing our own struggles and conclusions on the subject. <<
Ooohh...sounds like a challenge...
Education by itself does not create worth - it compresses experience.
For me it has been more of a struggle to not overpower people. There are four portions of scripture that I've found particularly helpful in placing education in context with our responsibilities as believers.
The first is the story of Joseph. He was clearly a gifted administrator. But his challenge was Pride. God did several things to humble him before he was granted amazing power - even let Joseph be sold into slavery and end up falsely accused and in prison. (He did end up running the prison - see Genesis 39:23)
The second is Daniel. The whole book, but especially vs 1:17: "As for these four young men, God gave them knowledge and skill in all literature and wisdom; and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams."
The third is Nehemiah. That entire book is a study in project management. But it also shows how smart leaders are challenged by the bad decisions of their followers. Eventually, strategy (and theology) must devolve into work, which means finding a way to deal iwth people of various skill levels and intelligence.
And finally, we have 1 Corinthians 13:2: And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."
Note here that the word "love" is "Charity" in the King James; the greek word is "agape." (See Strongs dictionary G26) The main thing here is that no matter how much we know, or how spiritual we are, we are nothing if we can't live with and act properly towards others. Education does not give you the right to disrespect others - these various stories in the Bible show very capable people who still had to treat others with respect, or God humbled them.
Incidently, I've heard this verse incorrectly used at weddings to describe romantic love (Eros), but for a fuller treatment on the subject, see C.S. Lewis' "The Four Loves."
(HA! Couldn't resist!)
26. Samuel PG said the following at 12:44 PM on Jun 12:
Mark,
I appreciate your comment and think it has a lot of wisdom. Being a theology major at a Christian university that places a huge emphasis on social justice (which is great) I have been privy to much of the struggle between those who value theology for its own sake and those who show great compassion but think that theology is a waste of time because it does not DO anything. In my experience, theology and ministry are like a feedback loop. If you have good theology it will lead to good practice which will in turn reinforce good theology which will encourage good ministry ad infinitum. Likewise, poor theology or ministry can often lead to a downward spiral.
My main theology professor makes a huge priority of the fact that theology is a task undertaken for the sake of the Church. It is not simply an academic exercise but a spiritual discipline that is meant to be harnessed to add direction and energy to the life of the Body of Christ.
If I have generally good theology but I pursue it simply for my own sake and do not apply it for the good of the Church, I not only have poor ministry but I also prove that my theology is not up to snuff because good ecclesiology would have lead me to understand that my gifts were not given to me for my sake but for the sake of the Church. If I sign every Save Darfur petition and volunteer with the One Campaign but do not think that theology matters, I am offering good services to people (such as safety and debt forgiveness) but denying them the most important service of salvation my ministry is not up to par.
We (or maybe just I) are often tempted to follow Platonic error by compartmentalizing our lives into Mental (theological), Spiritual (prayer life, Bible reading), and Physical (ministry) components when the truth of the matter is that every human is a unified whole and the practices in any aspect of life affect the whole person.
27. Kelly said the following at 11:49 PM on Jun 12:
Thank you everyone who's given me thoughts and suggestions. I will be doing a lot of reading of the suggested resources, and I hope and pray that with more knowledge behind me of God's truth, I can more confidently speak.
One argument that constantly comes up is this: that the King James version of the Bible (which modern interpretations are based on) was written at request of a King and therefore was purposely skewed towards his point of view. e.g. Respect of the king, or the more controversial topics which can be interpreted in different ways once returning to the original language (whether it be Hebrew or Greek). In other words, our *modern* Bible came from the English, 15th century 'worldview' of King James.
Thoughts? Comments?
28. Alice said the following at 1:58 PM on Jun 13:
C.S. Lewis was a great literary critic, but his apologetics (Mere Christianity, especially, and others) are simplistic and only convincing to people who are already Christians, or to people who don't have a very critical turn of mind.
I'm no writer, so to use a quote off logicism.com, about one of Lewis' most popular 'rational' arguments:
"One of Lewis’s main tenets is that there are only three options regarding Jesus: (1) Jesus is God, (2) Jesus was a mad man, or (3) Jesus was the devil (or some other evil spirit). He strongly claims that there are no other choices. I can think of several other choices: (4) Jesus’s disciples and/or early Christians intentionally exaggerated the story of Jesus’s life (5) Jesus’s disciples and/or early Christians unintentionally exaggerated the story of Jesus’s life because of being in a delusional state brought on by religious fervor (they were crazy, not Jesus) (6) Jesus intentionally mislead people with staged (magic) tricks in order to profit and promote himself and his ideas. (In other words, he was a con man who simply lied when he said he was God.) (7) Early church leaders selected, edited, and amended the books of the bible in a prejudicial manor that skewed the true message of Jesus. (8) The bible could be being misinterpreted due to the fact that nearly 2000 years have elapsed since they were written. (In other words, idiomatic meaning may have been lost, such that we do not understand the text in the way it was intended.)"
Reading through Mere Christianity, facile arguments like this make up the whole book. Is there nothing better, that can also be popular?
29. BDB said the following at 4:17 PM on Jun 13:
Kelly wrote:
>>In other words, our *modern* Bible came from the English, 15th century 'worldview' of King James.<<
Um...who cares? I have six versions of the Bible on my Palm Pilot (very inexpensive to get them this way) and a variety of other resources, both books and electronic. For any particular passage, you can look up the different versions and compare them. (Or learn Greek and Hebrew, which I haven't done.) The KJV is great for the poetry books - flows nicely in English. But I use NIV and New King James for day-to-day stuff. Living Bible if I have to dig into something for some reason. Each translation is a translation with a full history of how the translation was done. You can get a Ph.D. studying about all this if you really want to.
Besides, we elect our kings in the U.S., and the only get a maximum of two terms...
Alice wrote:
>>are simplistic and only convincing to people who are already Christians, or to people who don't have a very critical turn of mind. <<
Really? I find them challenging enough that I need to re-read them over and over again. Try God in the Dock.
But if you want to play hardball, most people who are very critical have an area of their life that is a mess, and they're trying to justify their poor behavior by rejecting God. The wreckage in their life is often glaringly apparent to others. And God's Word has tremendously valuable things to say about the best way to live life.
I've never met a single "critical" person, whether they got into MENSA or not, who was happier than me, so their arguments are not persuasive, either.
30. Samuel PG said the following at 5:44 PM on Jun 13:
Kelly,
It has already been pointed out to some extent, but the KJV is not THE modern translation. It has been updated and had errors corrected through study of the Greek and Hebrew in the NKJV. The New International Version is currently one of the most popular and was translated by a team of scholars from the original languages, as are almost all modern English translations. Just look at BibleGateway.com and you will see a small sampling of the many translations we have in English. Beyond that, if your friends genuinely cared they could pursue the study of biblical Greek and Hebrew as many of us are doing so that they could see the text in its full original glory.
31. Alice said the following at 7:10 PM on Jun 13:
Kelly, what does whether someone is happy have to do with whether their arguments are persuasive or not? Jesus was pretty sad, disappointed, angry, and frustrated a lot of the time (then again, times when he may have been feeling simply content might not have inspired his biographers to write it down).
32. Jesse Wilson said the following at 9:57 PM on Jun 13:
Good post Ted-- as a PhD student, I find the best friends of mine are the ones who are not academics. Life consists of so much more than mental exercises!
33. BDB said the following at 11:21 PM on Jun 13:
Alice wrote:
>>Is there nothing better, that can also be popular? <<
I do know a book that addresses problems 5-8 on your list. It's by Simon Greenleaf, and called "Testimony of the Evangelists." Basically, he goes through the Gospels and demonstrates that they would be admissable as evidence in a court of law. The bottom line is that if they made it up, as soon as they were threatened with death, they would recant their story. Unless they were all insane, they would not be willing to accept capital punisment as the price of their faith. There are an awful lot of martyrs who were completely nonviolent but refused to recant when threatened. Are they all crazy? Or have they found something worth dying for?
34. Jason W said the following at 6:26 AM on Jun 14:
Thanks for you answer Ted. I guess the thing I struggle with is healing (and hearing your struggle with cancer was enlightening). See next year I will be working in a Children's Hospital as a Pharmacist, and throughout my university degree have learnt a lot about sickness, death and dying so to speak - I am going into the business of sickness. So for me people say that I need to have the faith that God can heal people, but being exposed to sickness everyday, you realise that not a lot of healing from God goes on - good people die, Christians get sick and die - despite people's 'faith' that God will heal them. The conundrum that I find myself in then is 'do I have the faith to believe that God heals?' - and yes, I have seen God heal people, I cannot deny that, but to me people kid themselves when they believe that God is going to heal someone if they have faith - and I reckon they set themselves up for disappointment if it's in God's will that the person not be healed. Do I have faith in that sort of situation? I don't know - I think I have a 'realistic' view of healing - that sickness can be a time to bring us close to God and grow us and teach us lessons - but do I lack faith because I know that God might 'not' heal someone?
So no, I don't struggle with #1 - if I have questions regarding anything to do with the bible, I simply find the answers I need . . . there has always been (and I always will believe) that there is an answer for every objection that I encounter with regards to my faith in that sense.
I guess it's more #2 then - but sort of not as well :-S . . . I trust God, I don't always understand why things happen, but I trust God. It's just those matters of faith that people seem to be so sure about, yet I've seen people disappointed - think of giving for example, I want to be challenged and stretched, but when I've got x dollars in the account and got bills coming out from everywhere . . . it would seem irresponsible to give more in the 'hope' that God would bless me financially, or pour it back to me. I'd rather at the moment pay the bills and not have much left over. Or another example is the sickness/death/dying I cited above.
And I've never worried about silly philosophical questions. I do find them interesting at times but the don't drive my life - it's the real practical applying-faith-to-every-day-life questions that I'd LOVE to know the answers to.
And I know I'm only young and it's a journey . . . I probably won't know all the answers to all of these thing this side of eternity.
35. Mark Willard said the following at 8:22 AM on Jun 14:
Kelly,
Actually, the KJV Bible was translated and published in the 17th century, not the 15th. While the two most literal/readable translations recommended by most scholars today (the ESV and NASB) do in fact trace their ancestry to the KJV, there have been numerous English translations since then that do not rely on the KJV text. The very popular NIV would be an example, although I do not prefer or recommend that translation (as in fact, it's not a strict translation per se, but more of a partial paraphrase). If your intellectual friends are genuinely interested in getting past any supposed biases in the KJV, (in addition to learning Greek and Hebrew as Samuel recommended) they should check out the Geneva Bible -- an English translation that predates the KJV by a few decades and is still available today.
36. Caroline said the following at 2:08 PM on Jun 14:
"in "Testimony of the Evangelists", he goes through the Gospels and demonstrates that they would be admissable as evidence in a court of law. The bottom line is that if they made it up, as soon as they were threatened with death, they would recant their story. Unless they were all insane, they would not be willing to accept capital punisment as the price of their faith. There are an awful lot of martyrs who were completely nonviolent but refused to recant when threatened. Are they all crazy? Or have they found something worth dying for?"
This argument doesn't hold for me because, just because a person BELIEVES they have something to die for, doesn't mean it's actually anything based in reality. Have you been convinced by suicide bombers that their God is more real? I don't doubt that the Christian martyrs were sincere, but sincerity only indicates conviction, not truth.
37. BDB said the following at 12:50 AM on Jun 15:
Alice wrote:
>> what does whether someone is happy have to do with whether their arguments are persuasive or not?<<
It depends on what, specifically, they're being critical about.
Arguing about arcane spelling variances in the different gospels probably isn't a big deal.
However, there are people who are adamant about rejecting scripture because they have some kind of sin that's eating away at them. Instead of dealing with their own choices, they attack the scripture that says it is wrong. If they can "disprove" the scripture, they think they'll feel better.
It would take some specific examples to really give a good explanation. One example that came up in discussion this week was how people use alcohol. A person using alcohol as a crutch might want to quarrel with the biblical passages dealing with being "drunk with wine."
Even if God turns out not to exist, someone who follows God's commandments in scripture will likely lead a happier life. For more on this topic, see Pascal's Wager:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
38. Samuel PG said the following at 11:37 AM on Jun 18:
Mark,
Good call on the Geneva Bible. An added bonus with that one is the margin notes written by little known Bible scholars, such as, I don't know, John Calvin.