My Big Fat Greek Mindset
by
Denise Morris
on Jun 6, 2007 at 9:10 AM
I recently read a fascinating article in Messiah Magazine. Would you like me to tell you about it? OK!
The article is called, "My Big Fat Greek Mindset," and it talks about the huge differences between Western and Eastern thought. The reason this difference is important to us (Christian Westerners) is because the people who wrote the Bible and Jesus, Himself, were all Easterners. This means that they approached life from a different worldview perspective than we do. This is not to say that their conclusions about truth were different from ours at all, but it does mean that they approached Scripture and God in a way that we're not accustomed to.
The article pointed out that the Greek (Western) worldview promotes ideas above the physical world -- which is opposite from how the Hebrew (Eastern) mind does it. The way the Greek thinks about God is in idea form; the way the Hebrew thinks about God is in physical form.
This fact was so interesting to me because I have seen it demonstrated first-hand numerous times here at the Focus on the Family Institute. Each semester a speaker on biblical Israel named Ray Vander Laan talks with the students and points this out to them.
"Close your eyes and imagine God," he says. "Now shout out some descriptions of who God is."
The students begin and every time I hear things like: "God is ... love, good, omniscient, omnipresent, holy, righteous, omnipotent ..."
All of these things are true, right? Of course! However, if you asked the same question of a group of Hebrews, they would say: "God is a rock, an eagle's wing, a consuming fire, a shield ..."
Notice the difference? And really, if we're going to be technical, the Hebrew way is more biblical because these descriptions of God are actually found in Scripture. I just did a Bible Gateway search and "omniscient" is nowhere to be found. :-)
Another interesting point is one I have brought up before. To us Westerners, "faith" is mainly what you believe. As the article points out:
Once the person has agreed that they believe in Jesus, they are pronounced, "saved." As a result, salvation is viewed as granted to those who agree with a given theological statement or confession of faith. What one believes is more important than what one does.
The Hebrew perspective sees it differently:
Yeshua [Jesus] does not say "you will know them by their creeds" but rather "you will know them by their fruit" (Matthew 7:16, 20, emphasis mine). When Yeshua speaks of fruit, He is talking about how one lives -- one's actions. In other words, what one does is the fruit of what one truly believes, and therefore deeds not creeds are the true measure of faith.
The article then goes on to point out that confession of truth is crucial, but if our lives do not conform to that confession, then what's the point?
What do you all think? Have you studied the differences between Western and Eastern thought? If so, has it changed the way you approach the Bible and your faith? If not, do you think it's even all that important to know this stuff?
1. NeedACatchyName had the following to say on Jun 6 at 9:31 AM:
That sounds really interesting. Is there an online version of this or a similar article?
2. v@v had the following to say on Jun 6 at 9:34 AM:
This may or may not relate, but yes, I get it. I studied in Korea for a while, visited China, Thailand -- all majority-Buddhist countries. It was *continuously* expressed that Buddhism was not a religion, but a "way of life" -- a "do," if you will, rahter than a concept (though Buddhism is hugely 'conceptual', I guess). I couldn't help but wonder, "when will, if ever, Christianity be seen around the globe as a way of life, rather than a religion"... just a thought.
Generally, in speaking to fellow Asian students while abroad -- mainly those who were non-believers -- God was a concept, through which many were connected by "doing right." A classmate told me, "we are not so concerned about religion, we are more concerned about being good people"
Why the chasm between what we believe and what we do? We are most-definitely saved by grace alone, for only Christ's blood can forgive. It's a message we'll never tire to preach. However, we really have to strive to live between the concept and the reality -- not one at the sake of the other, but in concert.
3. kman had the following to say on Jun 6 at 9:37 AM:
"therefore deeds not creeds are the true measure of faith."
This is what James speaks of regarding works.
It is always helpful to know the perspective of a writer. We can miss ideas or not grasp the full meaning of what they wrote if we are looking from our perspective. But you can take it too far as well and read more than what was intended.
4. Denise Morris had the following to say on Jun 6 at 9:46 AM:
Catchy Name -- I think there's an online version, but you have to pay for it. You can check out the website here: http://ffoz.org/magazine/issues/messiah_magazine_94.html?zoom_highlight=my+big+fat+greek+mindset
Also, I am publishing a TrueU article tomorrow about discipleship. I'll let you know when it's up. I have one on the site right now that talks about faith and the Hebrew perspective. You can find it here: http://www.trueu.org/dorms/stulounge/A000000552.cfm
5. Gary had the following to say on Jun 6 at 9:55 AM:
I've watched a video series on biblical times and how early christians lived given by Ray Vander Laan called, "In the Dust of the Rabbi". He tours the ruins found in Israel, and gives descriptions of what they represent and how the Christians went about their lives. It is fascinating, and very challenging as well. I recommend it to all.
6. Celia had the following to say on Jun 6 at 10:22 AM:
I think as a general rule, if Christians ever do study eastern thought (vs. western), it's in the context of comparitive religions/worldview courses, and the discussion centers on why Buddhism and Hinduism and all eastern New Age thinking is different from ours. I know that's the case for me, anyway. As v@v so wisely pointed out, you can still glean ramifications for us with this information, but I think we often forget that Jesus came from that mindset, too, and we mix up "eastern" with "Asia."
Anyway, all this rambling to say I appreciated it, and think that it's something we should focus on more often.
7. Jamie had the following to say on Jun 6 at 10:36 AM:
I was actually just thinking about this the other day . . . I've been reading about Tai Chi to supplement my swimming, biking, and running, and one of the emphases is on meditative thinking and focusing the thoughts. It seems to me that in Western countries we entertain a constant stream of thought, a continuous inner commentary (what should I do? how am I going to...? what if...? what about...?) that must be silenced when one begins studying eastern disciplines such as yoga or martial arts. I think that too often Christianity, as Celia implied, associates eastern thought with New Age thought, which cuts us off from potentially beneficial pursuits, such as meditation and yoga, that are actually quite spiritually enabling for Christians.
8. Denise Morris had the following to say on Jun 6 at 11:01 AM:
I also want to make clear that I think there are differences between Eastern thought in general and New Age practices. I believe that some Eastern practices are completely unbiblical, just as I believe that some of Western thought and practice (elevating science above all else, for example) can be wrong.
This calls for discernment on our part. The point of my post is that it really is fascinating to understand how the biblical writers thought. It has helped me to understand a lot more about some things I previously thought were really confusing in the Bible.
9. Cath had the following to say on Jun 6 at 11:24 AM:
Christian musician Steve Bell did a radio interview and he quoted his pastor saying something like: "Never forget that Truth is a person, not an idea. Start there and then the scriptures will really begin making sense." I find this a really neat comment to meditate on. Hard to wrap one's mind around! I think he is referring the near East vs. Western ideas on God and Truth or should I write God[Truth].
A comment to Jamie about studying Tai Chi - you don't have to leave the realm of Christianity to find amazing ways of meditation! Read a little book called "The Way of the Pilgrim" and check out the way of meditating on 'the Jesus prayer'. Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholocism teach about repeating over and over in a meditative way, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner". There is such power in the name of Jesus!
10. Mandi had the following to say on Jun 6 at 11:49 AM:
It's most curious that Western Christians associate "the East" with non-Christian religions when 3 of the 4 first centres of Christendom were Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria. (The 4th was Rome, the only Western centre.) Why do people seem to think that those churches have disappeared? Don't people realize that fundamental truths that ALL Christians regardless of confession come generally from the East/Orient? Like the Trinity? Like the deity of Christ? Like the list of books to be included in the Bible?
There's lots more to say about this, and I learned some interesting things in a university course studying issues pretty close to what Denise is talking about here that I'd love to share...but this sounds crazy, but it's true...there's a very serious heating problem where I am right now and I'm FREEZING as I type this, and I don't own an indoor snowsuit, though I'm very modestly dressed but that doesn't seem to be making much difference (don't laugh, it's not funny!).
Thank you for bringing this up, Denise! This is really important stuff...it takes us back, waaaaaay back to the origins of Christianity itself.
11. Adam had the following to say on Jun 6 at 11:58 AM:
Very true, as far as the idea that many people today have this Platonic view of religion that says that knowledge is what is going to save us from our problems.
I think we have to be careful, though, as many aspects of eastern thought are at odds with the Biblical accounts. As always, the scriptures need to be our guide.
However, yes I had to take a course in Old Testament backgrounds. It is a rich topic for study, expecially given the fact that we are learning more and more as we excavate the ancient near east.
For some reason people avoid the Hebrew scriptures like the plague. I can honestly say that studying them has been invaluable to me as a Christian. One of my goals is to help people to fall in love with and read the Hebrew scriptures every bit as much as they do the New Testament.
God Bless,
Adam
12. Samuel PG had the following to say on Jun 6 at 12:01 PM:
One of the most liberating things that I have learned in my study of Eastern (but really Hebrew, not simply Eastern) thought has been the emphasis on the physical. So many Christians, myself one of them until a few years ago, think of Heaven as a very spiritual place in which our souls enjoy communion with Father God Whom is also spirit. Of course Heaven is spiritual, but not just spiritual! This sort of thought leads to a vague, gauzey idea of Heaven that really seems quite boring. Interestingly enough, this sort of idea is not biblical but Greek (read: Platonic). The Bible describes Heaven in physical terms that may be metaphorical and symbolic but are still physical. We will live on the New Earth in the New Heavens, in a giant beautiful city, with animals running around and feasts and banquets with billions of perfected people and most of all the fiery-eyed, snow-haird, sword-tongued incarnate Christ.
We should be extremely excited for Heaven but our current idea-oriented emphasis cannot generate any sort of concept of Heaven that we can relate to because we only have experience dealing with ideas and souls through the medium of the physical. By absorbing Hebrew thought, we can come to recognize the profound importance of the Incarnation and the Resurrection. I recommend Randy Alcorn's "Heaven" and especially recommend St. Athanasius' "On the Incarnation" (a much easier read than it seemss).
13. Christopher had the following to say on Jun 6 at 12:24 PM:
Careful here, God is likened unto many physical things in the Bible, but our God is (not just like) a person and therefore has many “invisible attributes” (as Paul says in Romans 1:20). It is by these that we know him best. I think it is way too easy to overstate the case here. In fact, much of our Western thinking comes directly from the Bible and not from the Greek philosophers.
Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
Deuteronomy 4:31 For the LORD your God is a merciful God.
2 Chronicles 30:9 For the LORD your God is gracious and merciful and will not turn away his face from you, if you return to him."
Job 36:5 "Behold, God is mighty, and does not despise any; he is mighty in strength of understanding.
Job 36:22 Behold, God is exalted in his power; who is a teacher like him?
Job 36:26 Behold, God is great, and we know him not; the number of his years is unsearchable.
Psalm 68:19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily bears us up; God is our salvation. Selah
Psalm 99:9 Exalt the LORD our God, and worship at his holy mountain; for the LORD our God is holy!
Psalm 116:5 Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; our God is merciful.
John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 John 4:8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
1 John 4:16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
I think the other way you can look at this is, “They will know who you believe in by the way you act.” The content of our faith always matters. Even God acts according to who he is.
14. Adam Sloope had the following to say on Jun 6 at 12:53 PM:
I just did a pretty indepth study for school on the fear of the lord and this is another thing us westerners lack. Due to our embracing of ideas and convenient religion we are a sad example of the kind of faith Jesus demanded in the bible. I'm sure everyone fed at the feast of five thousand thought Jesus was great and trusted Him to feed them, but when He started demanding a deepred level of faith by calling himself the bread of life amazingly the crowd split. Great article! This is the kind of things our generation of Jesus followers need to see. If we all begin to have faith that is evident by faith then we can truly be used to change this world for Jesus.
15. Mike Theemling had the following to say on Jun 6 at 1:09 PM:
The Western thought of dualism (in this context meaning you can believe one thing and act another way) is actually a Greek concept as Denise pointed out.
The Greeks were the ones who largely gave us Westerners the concept that "faith is a concept" and that our actions can be different from it.
In the Jewish mindset however (at least back in the days of the Bible), what you believed and how you acted were supposed to be in tandem. It's why they put more emphasis on actions than faith. Not to say that faith wasn't necessary, but that it would always be in alignment with what you believed. It's also why today many Jews who adhere to Judaism have difficulty understanding that a Jew can believe another faith like Christianity. To them, Judaism is their identity.
Perhaps part of the reason why God is used in much more direct metaphor in the Bible (a rock, eagle's wing, shield, etc) is that it was a very tangible comparison. Remember that the majority of people back then couldn't read. To explain ideas of omnipotence to a largely uneducated crowd would've been very difficult. But to say "God is a solid rock" most people would 'get it' and understand that God was reliable, unwavering, etc.
16. xeres had the following to say on Jun 6 at 1:38 PM:
Understanding the Greek and Hebrew thought life is something to consider. In the Hebrew mindset, what your wordview is on life or whatever matter affects how you are going to live or how you interact with people around you. Has anyone look over Leviticus? There are so much of that mindset in almost every word regarding things like what to eat, how to dress, how to treat each other and so on. Having a faith-integrated life is vital to the Hebrews, which is why in James' letter and even in Paul's letters, they had a hard time understanding on how can people claim to accept the Gospel but their lives show otherwise.
17. Carrie Lea had the following to say on Jun 6 at 1:46 PM:
Shalom, Denise--
Messiah magazine? Ha, I knew it as soon as I read your Passover article! You're a Messianic at heart! :)
I think we Americans desperately need a better understanding of the Hebrew mindset. I once did the Beth Moore study "A Heart Like His", in which Beth encouraged us to think of God in more concrete terms, such as a warrior and a poet. I must admit that the abstract way we usually think about God can get very dry, but picturing God as a powerful warrior king really stirs something inside me to want to follow Him with passion.
C.S. Lewis also discussed the Hebrew concept of the physical being, in some sense, the "same thing" as the spiritual in one of his books ('Miracles', maybe?). I'm not expressing it as well as he did, but it makes sense as he explains it. A recent TrueU article even talked about the connection between the physical and spiritual sides of worship.
On a side note (and here's where I get controversial), I think this is also why many Jews have a hard time accepting that Jesus is the Messiah. We Christians have traditionally represented Him as nullifying the Torah, God's Laws given to Israel through Moses. To a devout Jew, I'm sure it doesn't make much sense to say that we have a spiritual salvation while throwing out the outward obedience. I agree -- but then, I also believe that Jesus actually encouraged us to follow the Torah as an expression of love for Him, and that Christian claims of nullifying the Torah are based on misinterpretation. I've been trying to follow the dietary laws, the Sabbath, and the biblical festivals for several months now, and I have to say that far from feeling burdened, I feel more passionate about following God now that I ever have before!
18. Heather had the following to say on Jun 6 at 2:16 PM:
That's a fascinating article. My pastor is fond of saying that your theology flows out of your fingertips, and what comes out of your fingertips is your theology.
19. xeres had the following to say on Jun 6 at 2:58 PM:
Here some useful links regarding on Hebrew thought.
Hebrew Thought
Good and Bad
Poetry of Genesis One
These are interesting
20. Denise Morris had the following to say on Jun 6 at 3:21 PM:
Xerxes,
Thanks so much for posting those links. I thought the following excerpt from the "Hebrew Thought" article was super interesting.
"Abstract thought is the expression of concepts and ideas in ways that can not be seen, touched, smelled, tasted or heard. Hebrew never uses abstract thought as English does. Examples of Abstract thought can be found in Psalms 103:8; “The LORD is compassionate and gracious, Slow to anger, abounding in love”. As you noticed I said that Hebrew uses concrete and not abstract thoughts, but here we have such abstract concepts as compassionate, gracious, anger, and love in a Hebrew passage. Actually these are abstract English words translating the original Hebrew concrete words. The translators often translate this way because the original Hebrew makes no sense when literally translated into English.
"Let us take one of the abstract words above to demonstrate how this works. Anger, an abstract word, is actually the Hebrew word (awph) which literally means “nose”, a concrete word. When one is very angry, he begins to breath hard and the nostrils begin to flare. A Hebrew sees anger as “the flaring of the nose (nostrils)”. If the translator literally translated the above passage “slow to nose”, it would make no sense to the English reader, so a nose, is translated to “anger” in this passage."
21. Kari had the following to say on Jun 6 at 3:30 PM:
Ah, our old friend orthopraxy. It has long been a debate, since the beginning, on whether or not it was more important to think properly or do properly. Various people have answered it differently; generally speaking, there is a direct proportion to how many rules of behavior there are in a religion to how much significance the way one acts receives in ones final destination. I love studying Eastern Christianity; a friend of mine went to do mission work with Coptic Christians in Egypt, and he has returned with a passionate fire for doing, for not just making "good decisions" and avoiding sin but actively running after expressions of love for the world, through charity, compassion, protection of the weak, restoration of the wronged, and kindness to both strangers and friends.
If we had a fuller and richer understander of "right thinking" in all its complexity, we would begin to do the right thing. I think America is disadvantaged in this matter; we have managed to convince ourselves that what we do doesn't matter! (just see the Self Help/Empowerment pop movement to see my point. If people didn't feel worthless no one would be eagerly snapping up these explanations of self-worth.) No wonder so many people struggle with a sense of worthlessness. We tell ourselves nothing we do is important!
The fusion between "religion" and "life" is strangely divided. We want to look at people's religions as things we can put on a shelf, when our expressions of religion should be such that without us ever mentioning God once, people should know by our actions, attitudes, and standpoints that we are following the Christ. The idea that this always looks "creepy" or "extreme" is just further proof we need this aspect of faith to be redeemed.
22. Annie had the following to say on Jun 6 at 6:20 PM:
Reading through the post, my recent study on how the Bible came to be comes to mind (actually, I read the book, "How the Bible Came to be"... a MUST read, though I forget the author's name). I've been almost shocked to learn how far western Christianity has strayed from the origins of the church through some church history discussions with my Orthodox professor. After years of reading the Bible at face-value, the extraordinary importance of recognizing historical context finally opened up to me.
Along the lines of what Denise pointed out, my professor explained that Orthodox Christians believe that we receive salvation/complete fulfillment in Christ only after death. Thus, the concept of "getting saved" as most evangelicals see it means very little. This view also eliminates the interesting question of whether we can 'lose our salvation'.
Of course, this post is rather pale in comparison to the depth of the discussion... but those thoughts have certainly given me much to chew on over the past several months. Could evangelicals be getting some things really, really wrong???
23. San Soo had the following to say on Jun 6 at 10:45 PM:
Annie-
I think you are definitely on to something. I am always debating back and forth in my head about becoming Orthodox. I look at the East and the West almost like Macs and PCs. Macs don't have viruses (or very few); PCs have tons of viruses. Macs are made in such a way that viruses don't have the same effect that they have on Macs (so I've been told). I'm not into computers, but it makes sense to me.
24. Leah had the following to say on Jun 6 at 11:01 PM:
Denise, while the word "omniscient" might not be in the bible, I'm sure you would find the concept in there... along with holy, righteous, love, good, etc etc.
I totally understand the difference between western and eastern that you're pointing out, I'm simply saying they are both equally right- you will find examples of both in the bible. Westerners just gravitate towards one, Easterners towards another. Maybe we should both make the effort to understand the other a bit more.
25. Nat had the following to say on Jun 7 at 12:24 AM:
Maybe we need to clarify what is meant by "Eastern." I say this because there is a radically huge difference between a Jewish (or for that matter Muslim) world view - what for lack of a better term we should call "Near Eastern" worldview- and the believe system lived out farther East, in the religions and philosophies that have grown out of Hinduism and Daoism. There is tremendous variety here- the bulk of the people on the planet live here after all- For starters, Jews believe that world started- that's the basis of their calender, by the way. Most Asian philosophies teach either that the world has existed, or that it undergoes a cycle of destruction and recreation. Second, Jewish thought teaches that the world was begun by a someone. Not a something, not by some group of deities, but by a single, personal God, one pre-existent and ever existent- Yahweh. And this is something that Eastern (South or East Asian)religions do not teach. They may teach that a certain god is responsible for creation, another for preservation, and one for destruction (as Hinduism does) or they may teach that God is a force, a principle, like Daoism or most forms of Buddhism. They may teach that we are part of God, that we can achieve moksha from the life of suffering we lead my good deeds and right lifestyle, or by worshiping a particular manifestation of God(Bakhti traditions in Hinduism, or Pure Land Buddhism), but never do they teach a pre-existent, perfectly just, perfectly loving, all-powerful creator God who is distinct from his creation. And a final, and very important difference is the concept of the human race's condition- Jewish thought teaches that we as people have sinned against God, and that is the source of our present condition. Eastern thought teaches that we are subject to the dukha (suffering) simply because we exist. This dukha comes from bad karma earned in past lives; it may have accrued from a wilful act of the will one life or a hundred lives ago, and we must work our way out of it. (That's why a Buddhist usually doesn't appreciate John 3:16- Why would she want to suffer through eternal existence?)
26. Iris had the following to say on Jun 7 at 1:55 AM:
Great post! While I haven't thought in depth about the Western vs Eastern (Hebrew) way of thought, I have a great love for the Old Testament and how it is the root of our faith. This is probalby because I have a Jewish background.
Currently my Bible study group is doing a study of a book on Jesus in the Old Testament. The author starts his forward by saying that Jesus was first a Jew, he grew up with the Old Testament and from it he gained the authority of his ministry. If we don't understand where he was coming from (including the historical context), we miss a rich part of who He was and what Christianity should be.
Carrie Lee mentioned that Christians tend to view Jesus as nullifying the Old Testament covenant and laws. A much better way of viewing things is that Christ fullfilled the covenant and laws. He was the end of the beginning and the beginning of the end.
27. Robert J Espe had the following to say on Jun 7 at 7:27 AM:
Studying Eastern thought has some other interesting implications as well. In the west, we are into individual, personal relationship with God stuff. You find that less in the eastern mindset. When Paul or Peter addressed people, you frequently would find them addressing the head of a house saying that if the head of the house would believe and be baptized, that they and their whole house would be saved. Why? because in the east individuals aren't units as much as families are, so when the head of a house is Christian, the whole house does serve the Lord.
They also tend to be a lot more into doing stuff. Even though they spend less time talking about a relationship with God, I think the time spent doing things for God probably helps them know Him better. After all if God is love, which is an action, if you love your neighbors, you will know God.
Food for thought, I always enjoy discussing Christianity with Jewish and Greek Orthodox Christians. I've also had some interesting experience with Christians in the Ukraine. Christianity is worldwide, and is very different outside the states.
28. Denise Morris had the following to say on Jun 7 at 9:02 AM:
Nat,
Thanks for pointing out those differences. I actually prefer to say "Hebrew mindset" when referring specifically to the culture of the Bible.
Also, Leah, I agree that the idea of omniscience is found in the Bible. My point isn't to nullify the Western way of thinking about God, but to show that there's also the Hebrew way, and it's pretty cool. As you said, we don't need to necessarily reject one for the other.
29. Lis had the following to say on Jun 7 at 9:32 AM:
A great big "Yes, it's important!" from this student of Bible backgrounds in Jerusalem. I can't tell you how rich it has made my Bible reading!
30. Mandi had the following to say on Jun 7 at 9:45 AM:
Nat, and others, again -- where's the acknowledgement of the fact that Christianity has Middle Eastern roots, not Western ones? It is most curious that simply because of where we live (in the West), that our basic divisions in our minds are Christianity is Western; Hinduism and Buddhism are Eastern. How is it that Christians in the West do not either acknowledge (or know?) about the true roots of their Faith, and the state of the original centres of Christendom in the Middle East? Where do Christians in the West think the deity of Christ was fought tooth and nail for against heretics? Where do Christians in the West think the list of books included in the Bible were made? Where do Christians in the West think the Triune nature of God was fought for against heretics? How is it that the East/Orient could make such major contributions to the lives in Christ of Christians all over the world, and be ignored like that? It's as if we're reading church history from Acts and skipping straight to the Reformation.
On a different note, one thing I learned in that course I alluded to in my post yesterday was that Roman (Western) thought has drifted from the biblical roots exemplified most especially by the Apostle Paul's writings in that it has become scholastic -- i.e., reason and philosophy have become a theological method, or way to know God, of sorts. Of course, there is nothing wrong with reason per se. It is great for other things, but not as a way to know God, and deepen our relationship with Him, it's not the appropriate way to do so.
Why? Because God is infinite, and our minds are limited. How can something that is limited ever be an adequate tool to know God? It can't, any more than the ocean can be fit in a bucket. In fact, the Bible tells us that God is a mystery, that the depth of His ways cannot be known by our limited human nature. So using reason or philosophy as a theological method is kind of like trying to deepen our understanding of biology in a lab, using paint brushes and other tools meant for a totally different realm.
The Apostle Paul actually juxtaposes philosophy with the ways of Christ, and the wisdom of the world with the wisdom of God, saying that the former can simply lead one to think of Christ crucified as foolishness.
What was pretty interesting to learn, too, was that the Apostle Paul was very well-versed in Greek philosophy as evidenced by some of the words he used in the book of Hebrews (don't recall which ones), which apparently only show up in about 5 or 6 other places in all of ancient Greek literature. So he was well-read and well-versed in the wisdom of men, but the Holy Spirit still inspired him to write that such wisdom cannot be used to appreciate God and live in Christ.
31. Christopher had the following to say on Jun 7 at 12:39 PM:
Mandi’s last post is exactly why I said we need to be careful with this. Peter and Paul are more Western than Eastern (although both are very Hebraic) no matter how you look at it. The very fact that their writings are nothing like the Old Testament’s historical, prophetic, or poetic works should at least make us slow down when making such broad statements.
Having taken several years of Hebrew and Greek, I find it fascinating that the NIV and other similar translations are actually much more Eastern than the Greek text itself. The apostles’s use coordinating and subordinating conjunctions like they mean them.
I love the all these Hebraic (read Western) logic phrases, but you’ll need a literal translation often to see how often they appear in the Greek:
“for this reason,”
“in order that,”
“because,”
“therefore,”
“in as much as,”
“by”
“moreover”
“furthermore”
“in that”
“even as”
“so also”
“wherefore”
“lest”
“if …, then”
“but”
“although”
“since”
“for”
“except”
“on the other hand”
“and”
“while”
“thus”
Christianity is not mindless. It is not Eastern in any stretch of the imagination, unless your imagination is not confined by the word of God. If you abandon the logic of the Bible, Old Testament or New Testament, you lose God. It was not for no reason that Jesus says,
24 Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong." Mark 12:24-27 ESV
Jesus shows us that even in narrative passages, we are to see logical structures. There are logical reasons why people are wrong. Mostly they have to do with abandoning the inherent logic of the Scriptures. Even Jesus uses ground clauses that begin with that very important word “for.” Thinking also of “For God so loved …, that….” We simply can not escape the tight logic of our God. When we do, we will fall into Eastern mysticism and lose our faith.
32. xeres had the following to say on Jun 7 at 12:58 PM:
When Denise says Eastern, she meant the Jewish/Hebrew worldview of things
33. Carrie Lea had the following to say on Jun 7 at 3:21 PM:
Iris--
You are right when you say that He fulfilled the Torah, not nullified it. I once read a study of the Greek word used for "fulfilled" in Matthew 5:17. It actually means something like "completed" or "filled full". This could be taken a couple of different ways. In one sense, He completed the Law by doing what the Law cannot: which is to save our souls. However, the passage continues on to talk specifically about the commandments, giving an additional interpretation that He meant "to fill the Scriptures to their complete meaning," in other words, to explain them in a sense.
How are these for a few eye-openers...
The word translated as "church" in the New Testament is "ekklesia", right? The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Old Testament, made before Jesus's time. The Hebrew word for "assembly" or "congregation" in the OT, referring to Israel, appears in the Septuagint as... guess what? Ekklesia! Jesus and His disciples knew of this translated word and used it intentionally. So it begs the question... Why do modern translations use "church" in the New Testament as if it were a separate entity from the assembly of Israel?
How about this... You probably know of the connection between Passover and Jesus's sacrifice to save us (His blood on our doorposts, so to speak). Did you know that His birth and resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit also occurred on/around biblical festivals (Sukkot, Firstfruits of Barley, Shavuot, respectively)?
Another one... The biblical feast of Trumpets (Rosh Hashanah) is the only one to occur on the first of the month. The biblical month did not begin until the new moon was sighted. For this reason, some Jewish tradition associates Rosh Hashanah with not knowing the day or the hour. Was Jesus drawing a connection with this feast when He spoke of the end times in Matthew 24:36? Also, Paul mentions the "last trumpet" in connection with the end times in 1 Cor 15:52.
There is a midrash (Jewish teaching) on King Solomon, and how he removed a jot from the Torah to relieve his guilty conscience over taking many wives. The irony is that he believed he understood the purpose of the commandment, reasoned that he could therefore ignore the "letter of the law", and be safe as long as he kept his heart from turning away from God. Then, in his old age, his many wives turned his heart away from God. Jesus seems to make a reference to this teaching in Matthew 5:18.
It amazes me to think of how much I've learned about the Messiah from studying a little of the Jewish perspective. Don't get me wrong -- I think a "Greek" perspective is wonderful for logic and reasoning. But I strongly encourage everyone to seek a Hebrew perspective too. Some of the things you learn could make your jaw drop!
34. Christopher had the following to say on Jun 8 at 5:48 PM:
Mandi,
Love your comments on the "Chick Flick" post. Not trying to attack you, but I'm still a bit concerned with some of your thinking here. If we take your concept of the infinite being unknowable by means of the finite, what tool/method would you use to replace logic with?
Are not all tools/methods available to man finite?
35. Eliana had the following to say on Jun 8 at 9:22 PM:
I found this post very interesting. It made me reflect that the emphasis on the physical world as a means to known God is not found only in the Eastern church or among the Hebrews. Catholicism stresses the union of the physical and the spiritual, which came from the Hebrew Christians. This is why the sacraments are so important to us, being visible, physical means to show God's grace.
36. Leah had the following to say on Jun 9 at 4:47 AM:
Mandi- I don't think anyone is saying Christianity is a 'western' religion. We are simply discussing the different ways people think in regards to Christianity.
37. Daniel from the Maritimes had the following to say on Jun 9 at 8:43 AM:
Christopher,
There is a Way (I won't call it a tool or method) available to [finite]man to know [the infinite] God that is not finite: God's revelation of Himself--in the Scriptures and in His Son. (I stole this idea from Francis Schaeffer).
38. Mandi had the following to say on Jun 13 at 3:18 PM:
Leah -- if you read a lot of people's posts, you'll find that they're immediately associating Christianity with "the West", and yoga, Hinduism, etc. with "the East", not Christianity. That's what I meant. That's most troubling because of the points I tried to make.
39. Mandi had the following to say on Jun 13 at 3:19 PM:
Christopher -- just a quick note (I hope to give your questions more justice when I get a minute to breathe from my wedding planning) -- so much of Scripture shows God's way, way above our thinking and powers. Parting seas, splitting cedars, making water wine, creating humans, rising from the dead, etc. are all evidences of that. I think the best way we can know God is through experience with Him. One thing to know intellectually, from reading, that He's forgiving, merciful, powerful, etc. Quite another (in terms of quality of relationship) to experience those things with Him in your walk. Other examples would be that our Lord promised His peace -- that's something we experience. The Bible speaks of God as mystery (something we can't understand with logic by definition), and many of His gifts (like marriage) as such. And John the Baptist, a 6-month-old fetus was able to recognize God Himself -- because he had the Holy Spirit...I could go on...but I really hafta run now..
40. Suzanna had the following to say on Feb 26 at 6:38 PM:
FYI--The author of the article she references has made his original drafts available on his website. the first part of the article is available here as a pdf. The second part here. Since these are the original drafts, they are longer than what appeared in messiah magazine. Enjoy.
41. Maureen had the following to say on Feb 29 at 9:14 AM:
I am delighted to see that the Hebraic perspective is appreciated here! I found this page by doing a Google search for "My Big Fat Greek Mindset" and this was the first hit.
For those interested, the original, unedited version of the article by Tim Hegg is available for free download at torahresource.com. Highly recommended!