Has God Abandoned America?
by Candice Watters on 06/04/2007 at 11:33 AM
A few weeks ago, Steve attended a National Day of Prayer event at Woodmen Valley Chapel, our home church. Though I couldn't go with him, I was eager to hear what the speaker, Dr. John MacArthur, had to say. Steve brought a sober report of a serious talk in which Dr. MacArthur said he believed God had abandoned America.
It wasn't what I expected. But after hearing more about the context of his conclusion, it was hard to disagree. Today Focus on the Family aired the first half of his talk and I was able to hear it for myself. It was even more stunning than what I'd imagined. You can listen to it here.
At first I was depressed by the stark reality of it. But I'm glad I listened. Now that I know where we stand -- how bad it really is -- I can begin to learn how to pray. It's only after you know what's making you sick that you can hope to get well. MacArthur's talk is the diagnosis.
MacArthur says, "One of the most tragic scenes in the Bible ... is the scene of the strongest man who ever lived, a man by the name of Samson, finding out he had no strength.... He said, 'I will go out as at other times and shake myself free [of the Philistines]....' But he did not know that the Lord had departed from him. So the Philistines seized him."
He believes that as it was with Samson, so it is with America.
Before you jump all over that assertion, listen to the talk. Then come back and let us know what you plan to do about it.
1. Justin said the following at 11:44 AM on Jun 4:
It is my belief that God abandoned America, when we founded our country on the belief that a black person was only worth 2/3 of a white person.
2. Joe said the following at 12:31 PM on Jun 4:
Amen Justin
3. Philippa said the following at 12:39 PM on Jun 4:
Hmmm. Listened to it.
So. Did God abandon America during the Civil War, one has to wonder?
What struck me was how MacArthur so narrowly focused on sexual sin as a prime reason for God's abandonment.
I don't deny the seriousness of sexual sin, neither do I deny that Western civilisation in general has become corrupt, and that includes sexual corruption.
But is sexual sin the ONLY thing wrong with America? - or my country (the UK) - or the West in general?
How about the god of Mammon? Money is worshipped in Western culture, as much as sex is. Perhaps the gods of Mammon and Lust always go together.
MacArthur's talk left me depressed all right, but not for the reasons you may imagine. I'm depressed because actually he's not holding up a big enough mirror for American Christians to peer into.
How about Iraq? Death and destruction take place there every day. Thousands and thousands of Iraqi civilians have died because of this ill-judged and ill-conceived war which was entered into without any discernible exit strategy. The tiny Christian community struggles on, in circumstances that would probably shatter your average British or American Christian's faith into pieces.
I don't know how much mileage is left in Western civilisation - who knows? - but I do believe that God will hold your country, and mine, to account for the disastrous and far-reaching decisions our respective governments have made on the world stage.
I'd better get praying.
4. David Bromberg said the following at 12:44 PM on Jun 4:
I guess the concept of God's blessing or abandonment of nations, rather than people is confusing to me. I recognize the biblical basis (especially when related to Israel), but have trouble understanding it in a modern context. While it's easy to see moral depravity in the world today (particularly in America), is there any reason to suggest that the nation of America was once as Israel was: "God's chosen people?" That seems a bit presumptious or nationalistic on our part. Why is there a reason to suggest God today adopts nations (let alone abandons them) in the same way he did Israel?
5. Jamie said the following at 12:44 PM on Jun 4:
The question is whether God was ever with America. While I'm sure He loves and cares for our country as much as any other, I find no evidence to support the popular notion of America as the New Jerusalem. America is not God's chosen nation; it's not Israel. I think the fact that the New Jerusalem notion is so popular is partly because the idea is part of our history, but it also belies a dangerous egocentricity inherent in the American psyche.
6. BDB said the following at 1:16 PM on Jun 4:
Justin wrote:
>>It is my belief that God abandoned America, when we founded our country on the belief that a black person was only worth 2/3 of a white person. <<
Ahem. Sorry, but that's not what the Constitution says. It says (Article I Section 2):
Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.
Note that this was eliminated with the 14th Amendment in 1868, Section 2:
Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed.
In all cases slaves were considered to be a full person. I do agree that slavery was a sin.
It seems more likely that America abandoned God. Substantial evidence exists that Americans prefer to serve money.
7. Ken said the following at 1:24 PM on Jun 4:
Still not taking into account that there were many good men who did not side with slavery and fought against it.
It was called the Civil War.
I still believe their good men in this country whose cries God hears.
8. John said the following at 1:27 PM on Jun 4:
I believe it was Billy Graham who once said that if God does not judge America, He would have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.
Sadly, I have to agree with that statement. Our national acceptance of abortion, homosexuality, etc. are national sins that cry out for judgment (which is a separate judgment than that faced by individuals, many of whom abhor and resist those sins). An honest look at our country would indicate that our foreign wars of aggression, our use of torture and violence against civilian populations, also cry out against us. (That is not a popular position among conservatives, who seem to believe that anything done by our military is A-Okay because we're always the good guys, but if you take Scripture, instead of RNC talking points, for your guide, a different picture emerges.)
We stand on the verge of economic collapse, a wholesale invasion by illegal aliens, natural disasters (Google the Yellowstone supervolcano or the Cumbre Viejo volcano in the Canary Islands) and a domestic police state (check out National Security Presidential Directive 51/Homeland Security Directive 20).
The U.S. abandoned God, and now He seems to be abandoning the U.S.
Individual Christians must get close to the Lord, and be a light to those around us.
It kind of puts the whole marriage debate in a different light, too.
9. Simon said the following at 1:31 PM on Jun 4:
1) America was founded when people settled here, not when the Constitution was ratified. The culture, economy, society didn't change overnight because of the Constitution. And before that, there was the Articles of Confederation, and before that, 13 self-governing colonies.
2) It was the Constitution that counted slaves as less than one man only for the purposes of representation in Congress. How they were treated legally in other cases was dependent on the individual states. How they were viewed personally depended on the people they came in contact with. A person's worth should not come from the government census.
3) It was 3/5, not 2/3.
4) The 3/5 count was applied to slaves, because they were not freemen, not because they were black.
5) Would it be better for slaveowning states to have more representation in Congress if slaves were counted as whole people?
10. Simon said the following at 1:32 PM on Jun 4:
Hmm, does posting comments no longer require you type in that verification code?
11. Joshua Pettett said the following at 1:55 PM on Jun 4:
I'm afraid I don't have time to listen to the broadcast right now. But I feel compelled to ask: isn't our problem not so much that God has abandoned America but that America has abandoned God? God is certainly working in many places around our country; I think the question is whether we're willing to accept what he's calling us to. Consider 2 Chronicles 7:14.
12. Vincenzo said the following at 2:32 PM on Jun 4:
I believe that America has been blessed by God, and we have to remember that America, with its history of war, tragedy and injustice has also promoted much good in the world. I think that the church is largely responsible for the problem we have as it has the spiritual authority to counteracts the culture downturns that have been taking place for the last generation. I believe that there are judgments coming to this nation for abortion, our materialism and promotion of homosexuality, etc. Yet, I also believe that we are at a crossroads and as a nation we can still fulfill the destiny that God desires for us to fulfill if we repent and turn back to God.
Justin,
You forget slavery was eventually abolished. There are nations in the world where slavery is still very much a fact of life.
13. JB said the following at 3:33 PM on Jun 4:
So if the sexual revolution and the gay rights movement are symptoms of God's wrath rather than its cause, why did God choose to turn away from America in the 1960s? Was the Cold War more offensive to God than, say, slavery or the genocide accompanying the European settling of America? Did I mishear (I may have been multitasking a little . . .) because this doesn't make much sense to me.
14. Jethro said the following at 3:47 PM on Jun 4:
Another typical example of American ethnocentrism. Why would God view America any differently to Botswana or Peru?
America - get over yourself.
15. k. said the following at 4:37 PM on Jun 4:
I don't think God has "abandoned" America any more than He's abandoned the rest of the world. For one thing, we get saved as individuals and have personal relationships with Christ, so why would God suddenly go from dealing with individuals to dealing with entire nations?
Saying that God's abandoned America would also require God having some sort of special tie to our country in the first place, when that's really not the case. Where did Jesus say, "My favored nation is America"? I *think* the only nation God's ever shown a clear preference for is Israel. In Philip Yancey's book, The Jesus I Never Knew, he makes the point that "[Jesus] probably did not spend his life among Jews in the first century merely to save Americans in the twentieth." We tend to assume that God has a special interest in the US, and I don't think that's really warranted.
16. Louise said the following at 5:57 PM on Jun 4:
I am troubled by the suggestion that God chooses to bless one nation troublesome in modern times. God did not make a special covenant with America, we are governed by the Constitution not Christian law. If America in fact was a Christian country at some point, my idea of Christianity must be seriously flawed. America was a country was found explicitly on the belief that African Americans were worth less than whites (which you can indeed see in the laws of EVERY state although there are nuances that differentiate them) reglardless of whether they were free or slave, that married women had no identity outside of their husband, and that Native Americans had no right to the land they lived on because white Americans thought they were lazy heath savages. Obviously this is not Christianity. Ths US has never been a Christian nation in the sense many claim it was.
17. Leah said the following at 6:05 PM on Jun 4:
The idea that America was something special to God in the first place rubs me the wrong way. And what do you mean by "God has abandoned America"? Clearly it doesn't mean he won't accept American Christians. Clearly it doesn't mean he will no longer bless the land- you still get rain, don't you? (More than we can say for Queensland or New South Wales at the moment). If you mean "America is no longer special to God" I'd say "too right- and I doubt it ever was". God doesn't play favourites (except 3000 years ago with the Israelites.) I don't believe God has abandoned America anymore than he's abandoned Australia, Italy, South Africa, Japan, Chile, Norway or Kazakhstan. He is still at work in all countries.
And Vincenzo- I am truly not saying America is no good, but what good has it promoted in the world?
18. JRW said the following at 6:42 PM on Jun 4:
Candice, thank you for bringing up this issue. I listened to that broadcast this morning, and it was so sobering. I remember hearing someone say once that a common denominator precursing the end of all the great empires throughout history was a cultural acceptance of sexual sin, especially homosexuality. That really makes things look scarey for our beloved country. This is a good reminder of the need to pray fervently for revival in America.
And to follow up on what Simon said,
the 2/3 rule was actually a compromise between the writers of the Constitution who were against slavery and didn't want to reward slaveowners by letting them have more representatives the more people they owned, and the writers who were pro-slavery and wanted to get full credit for their slaves. Like the Bible, the Constitution has sections which may be misinterpreted at first glance without an background understanding of what the writers were really thinking.
19. cn said the following at 6:50 PM on Jun 4:
i listened and i agree. i didn't think i would but for the most part i do. i don't think it has anything to do with replacement theology either... just making the statement that based on the actions of the american people there's evidence that we've been handed over to our sin. he makes a strong biblical case for it.
20. Dan said the following at 7:00 PM on Jun 4:
I haven't listened to the broadcast yet, however there are a few things that I want to add. To begin with, in the New Testament, God's people are the ones who accept Christ as their Lord and Savior, not a nation, like in the Old Testament, it was Israel. I believe God will judge Israel, but I believe that God will judge every person individually.
My second point is this, and I use the example of Sodom and Gamorrah, God wasn't judging those people based on sexual sin, but on their pride, and selfishness. Sexual immorality is the fruit of someone or a society that is selfish. We in the western world (I'm an Aussie, but I believe we're all in the same boat) have become so self absorbed, that people are turning to money, and unholy sex to satisfy themselves.
But there is hope, and that is all of us that visit this blog and serve in churches and workplaces all around the world. We have the answer to life, and each one of us is called to be a minister of reconciliation. We have to keep loving people and living our lives pleasing to the one who created us. As we lift Jesus high in our lives, in says in the word that He will draw people unto Himself. I think we should just do that, because the Holy Spirit will be poured out a fresh, and I say bring it on! Lets just be Jesus to people in the mean time.
21. Laura said the following at 8:13 PM on Jun 4:
I think it's very dangerous to identify America as a modern-day Israel, and to assume that God's relationship to our secular state is or was ever the same as God's relationship to a primitive society that existed several thousand years ago. The United States is a secular state, not an ethnic group with whom God made a special covenant. To speak as though God has "abandoned" us or was ever "on our side" is incredibly arrogant. God created people, not countries, in his own image.
22. Megan said the following at 9:54 PM on Jun 4:
I don't think the wars we've fought (or are fighting) are good evidence to use in this discussion. Jesus said wars and "tribulations" were part of the world we live in until he comes again. I have a suspicion that even if we didn't have so much immorality going on we'd still be having problems with war; the difference being God has a tendency to help people who are relying on him and allow people who aren't to get beaten even when the odds are in their favor.
The most ill-considered part of the current war situation is that we have enemies who believe they're fighting for God and we think we're too sophisticated for that kind of barbarism. It puts us on a very weak footing when we try to fight a spiritual war secularly.
I think the overall trend in our culture of denying God is worse on the surface than it's ever been. I do believe there was a time when God did seem to be with us: our country was founded against odds that should've been impossible. It's been the most overtly Christian nation in the world for several generations.
Regarding our toleration of slavery as evidence we weren't a Christian nation when we were founded: as terrible as slavery is, God never spoke out against it like he did against some of the things we're allowing now while considering slavery one of the worst evils under the sun.
23. tmd said the following at 10:52 PM on Jun 4:
I'm rather surprised, shocked if you may, that none of the Boundless staff intervened on the horrid doctrine some of the commentors are purporting.
To suggest an entity, i.e. person or nation, errs into sin because God has abandoned that entity is, quite frankly, heresy. Rather, the opposite is true. Error, or sin, occurs when an entity has abandoned God [Genesis records the archetype proof, the sin of Adam and Eve]. Or, in a different view, judgment occurs when something does not behave as it was intended [created] to behave; think, if you may, of the fig tree which Jesus cursed.
Dr. John MacArthur's use of Samson as a proof of abandonment is misguided. God withdrew from Samson after Samson's continual (and final) disobedience. The same is true for any nation, the United States, ancient Israel, etc.
God abandoning something or someone reeks of hopelessness. If such "doctrine" were true, then God was lying in II Chronicles 7:14. And hence, the uselessness of prayer.
Certainly some of you are thinking that God has brought ultimate destruction and ruin to nations, city-states, etc. Sodom & Gomorrah, Nineveh, etc. However, this is on account of continued, unrepentant sin, which I reviewed earlier. And to beat an already dead horse, such destruction was brought because of the creation's abandonment of its Creator, not the Creator's abandonment of the creation. II Peter 3:9
I think everyone here would do themselves well to read the book "God and the Nations" by the late Dr. Henry M. Morris.
Simon - Thanks for correcting erroneous historical proofs (in your points #'s 2-5).
24. Abram said the following at 11:08 PM on Jun 4:
I think that this is a ridiculous thing to be worried about. If God actually cares about the nation of America as an entity to begin with... Look back at the story of Samson in Judges. Samson was really quite a bad guy: he frequented prostitutes, lied to his parents while feeding them ritually unclean food, murdered hundreds of people practically on whims, gambled (with his riddle-telling - which he lost and then killed thirty people so that he could repay it...), and all sorts of other "immoral" stuff. And when did God "depart" from Samson? When he had his hair cut. Come on people... What is it that God really does care about because I'm getting mixed signals from this story? Go back and read Judges 16 again, I think you'll be surprised by what you see, and then you may think that if God ever personally blessed the good old U.S.A. in the first place then the moment he abandoned us was when all the hippies of the 70s cleaned up and went to work in the 80s.
25. James said the following at 12:44 AM on Jun 5:
I think John MacArthur has hit the nail right on the head, and is absolutely right.
God has given up our culture (not just America, IMO, but western civilization in general) to its depraved mind. Our continued and blatant rejection of Him has tested Him and tested Him, and He has withdrawn any blessing our civilization had.
The focus on sexual sin is because that is the symptom of those who have rejected God and been turned over to their depraved minds (Romans).
And please, don't bring up the war. That's irrelevant, and besides, its one of the few general GOOD things we're doing.
26. Nat said the following at 1:20 AM on Jun 5:
The Jewish people were chosen by God in a way and for a role that no other people or nation were. That does not mean that there is a lack of Biblical precedent for God choosing other nations for different, much more limited roles. Sometimes these roles are negative: God used Assyria and Babylon to punish Israel and Judah, respectively. Sometimes the roles are positive, as when God used Cyrus and the Persians to re-establish Jerusalem. Check out Isaiah, chapters forty-four and forty-five. And ultimately, God plans to use the people of Israel to bring the nations to himself. See Isaiah chapter nineteen, verses sixteen through twenty-five to see how this will work out.
I think that in more recent times we can see how God has used even sinful nations to fulfill his purposes. Britain abolished the slave trade, and then expended tremendous resources to make certain that other countries did not continue slaving, either. They kept working at it as late as the 1930s, off the coast of East Africa. God raised up the English to curtail a trade that hitherto had been almost universal. (I say almost, because in the Middle Ages, Christians couldn't enslave Christians, and Muslims couldn't enslave Muslims, but both sides could have a fair go at each other, and at pagans, as well.)
As to whether sexual immorality is is a lesser or greater sin than any other, isn't that something of a moot point? Sexual sins always accompany other sins- the people and the nations whom God judges for injustice are concurrently engaging in sexual immorality. And, lets be frank here, rampant homosexual behavior is given, in both the Old and the New Testaments, as a barometer for a society that has exhausted its moral capital and rejected whatever moral roots it once had. If we're doing that, then we're doing everything else as well.
We who are Americans today sin in a different fashion than our ancestors did, in that they (for the most part)acknowledged a standard higher than themselves, one they weren't attaining. We are a generation unique in arguing that what God has to say about something - if there is a God and if he happens to have something to say- is really no more or less consequential than what you or I think. There no longer is a common standard, a real truth to appeal to. To paraphrase Peter Kreeft, previous generations were hypocrites because they willfully subverted standards they upheld. We are not hypocrites because acknowledge no standards to subvert.
27. Robert J Espe said the following at 8:24 AM on Jun 5:
I don't have speakers (so I can't listen). Did MacArthur say we were Israel/New Jerusalem? I think we all agree that's not the case, so let's move on.
Even though we don't have promised blessings under the Abramaic covenant, does not mean that our country isn't blessed by God, and he is certainly blessing other countries as well. Being blessed isn't a unique favor, and frankly I would prefer to be blessed. Anyone who thinks God ignores our country should stop and remember what old farmers never forgot: God doesn't owe us rain. Our technological arrogance can make us take the small, important blessings for granted. Think about what would happen if God withdrew the blessing of rain for three years like he did in Elijah's day.
Finally, I think we need to ease up on this US founded on evil business. Remember, slavery has been normal throughout the world for most of history. It was only starting to crumble when our country was founded. If you read anything written by the founding fathers, you will see they were Christians. Certainly they weren't perfect, and they may have had some different views, but nobody here agrees on all things theological either.
Remember that the US winning independence from (err successfully rebelling against, in deference to our brothers in the UK ;-) England would be like Puerto Rico winning her independence from America and then becoming a world power. That doesn't happen without a little divine blessing ("And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"~Benjamin Franklin).
Not saying it was because we were good, God has purposes. He also raised up and brought down Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, German, and English empires to serve them. We are no different, but it doesn't mean that I don't crave God's continual blessing, because when it goes away, well, look for the empires listed above.
Finally, there is still no where else I would rather live (except maybe New Zealand, and I recognize that without countries like ours, places like that would be quickly conquered and subjected by larger more ambitious ones.) and I am grateful to God for continuing to bless my home so that I can live without fearing for my wife's safety on a daily basis.
28. JenR said the following at 9:17 AM on Jun 5:
My first thought when reading this article (currently unable to access the talk) and eagerly keeping up with the comments, was "Thank God for separation of church and state." No, I'm not being facetious.
I am one of those who find it difficult to believe that God was ever "on America's side" -- [I realize that my ways aren't his and so forth, so he could very well be, who am I to say if it is or isn't so?] -- and certainly find it arrogant for us to assume that God has suddenly abandoned us (or perhaps not so suddenly).
We have abandoned him. That much is clear. Oh, yes, there are pockets here and there, but in general, I think it is safe to say that America has abandoned God. Not all Americans, but America in general.
Which is why I'm thankful that at least we're still a country that allows the few of us left to freely worship and follow Christ -- instead of declaring that everyone who lives here is a Christian without any substance to back up that claim, or persecuting those of us who choose to believe (and I think execution a much more severe punishment than mere mocking by peers for one's belief).
Besides, I cannot help but wonder, if God has indeed recently abandoned America -- where has he gone? What nation/country is he now affiliated with?
I suppose I just struggle with the idea that God could be on any side but God's -- and any nation that blatently goes against him, clearly has made the decision to be abandoned, if abandonment be the case.
Then again, I have little patience with people declaring "God's on my side" without proper understanding of who God is. "He is not a tame lion."
29. Miss S said the following at 10:40 AM on Jun 5:
It's rather surprising how cynical our age group is regarding patriotism. Much to ponder...
30. Mike Theemling said the following at 12:29 PM on Jun 5:
I wanted to listen to both parts of the sermon before commentating. A lot of good comments have been made, and I agree with a number of points already brought up:
- America (or any other country for that matter) is not the nation of Israel. Israel/Judah were a unique nation because God (Yaweh) Himself was the ruler, or at least supposed to be (Israel asked for King which God did not want them to have) with special covenants. Many of the promises that God has gave were intended for Israel and Israel alone (Duet 29-30, 2 Chron 7:13-14, etc.). Now this does not mean that the principle cannot apply to this or any other country or even to individuals, but we should be careful when making 1-to-1 comparisons with Israel and America.
- Judgements from God on nations are not necessarily guarenteed or everlasting. In the book of Jonah, Jonah stated that the city of Ninevah would be destroyed (overturned) in 40 days. But because the city repented, God did not destroy the city (it should be noted that later on God did eventually destroy Ninevah because they went back to their evil ways). However, I do believe there is an element of truth in that as a culture, God does let a nation face the consequences of sin. The book of Habakkuk states that God can use pagan, immoral nations to judge other nations (such as Israel) but they themselves will not get off scott-free. And at times people, both good and bad, can get caught in the mix.
- Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for a number of reasons. The sexual sin certainly was evident, but as Dan said they (at least Sodom) were also "arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy" (Ezek 16:49-50).
- I don't believe that America was founded with the intent of being a "Christian" nation. Although I do believe that a number of the founding fathers were Christians, I think more of them were Deists using God conveniently.
- Having said all the above, personally, I do think that God does bless people, and even entities (nations, households, etc) on account of even a minority of good people. Potifer's household was blessed because 1 righteous man (Joseph) was living there, not because Potifer or anyone else was good. God said he would not destroy Sodom/Gomorrah if there were even 10 righteous living there (which there weren't which is sad). I do believe that God has blessed America for certain things she has done in her history. Abolished slavery despite it being extremely unpopular at the time, waging just wars against evil (WWII namely), sending out missionaries into other countries (esp during the 19th century. A native of India once said he believed America has been blessed largely because of our evangelism efforts to other nations during that time), etc. So it could reasonably be concluded that if all these "righteous" people diminish that God's blessing may be removed. However to pinpoint it to an exact time or say that God's abandonment (or lack of blessing if you prefer) has already happened is a stretch. I DO believe however that soon, within a few generations, Christians will face real, tangible persecution from the U.S. government for standing up to absolute truths. And that is a sobering thought.
"I don’t think it matters that God is on our side, but it is my constant anxiety and prayer that I and this nation should be on the Lord’s side"
-Abraham Lincoln
31. Brian said the following at 1:02 PM on Jun 5:
A question for those of you reading this article. Do you think there is any connection between this "abandonment" (either of God by us or of us by God) and the destruction of a large part of New Orleans?
Having spent time down in the region helping people rebuild, I can vouch that there are indeed many good people there. (Which couldn't have been said of Sodom and Gamorah)
I myself haven't formed an opinion yet, and I would like to see what you think.
32. Ted Slater said the following at 1:08 PM on Jun 5:
A number of you -- David, Justin, Jamie, Louise, Leah, Laura, JenR, and others -- are misunderstanding the issue.
America is not "God's chosen country," as Israel has been. But God (as some have pointed out) in fact *does* bestow His blessing on groups of people because of the favor He has toward one person. God has been blessing the United States (as well as other countries); Dr. MacArthur's point is that perhaps this blessing has dwindled in accordance to Romans 1:28 and the surrounding verses.
Maybe listen to what Dr. MacArthur said before posting further comments, as he explains his position better than I'm able to.
33. Mike Theemling said the following at 1:19 PM on Jun 5:
Brian,
We always need to be careful whenever a disaster befalls a person/nation/etc. not to automatically attribute it to God's wrath.
It is certainly true that God does cause some bad things to happen to people as an act of judgement. The Bible is clear on that. But many Jews wrongly assumed that ALL bad things that happened to people were a result of some sin (John 9:1-3). Jesus responded in this instance saying that sometimes suffering is not caused by a direct sin but happens "so that the work of God might be displayed". A lot of the suffering that goes on in my opinion is a result of a fallen world.
So be careful and don't assume 9/11 happened because of our sexual sins and abortions, or that New Orleans got flooded because they promote a decadent lifestyle. Oftentimes we just don't know.
34. JenR said the following at 2:11 PM on Jun 5:
Is there a way to get a transcript for those of us who are unable to stream/listen to the talk?
35. Jethro said the following at 3:23 PM on Jun 5:
Ted,
Quote "God has been blessing the United States (as well as other countries)"
Prove it! Demonstrate to me and others that God has blessed the US and in what ways he has done so. And be sure to differentiate these blessings from other things.
Or do YOU simple BELIEVE that God has blessed the US?
36. Megan said the following at 3:59 PM on Jun 5:
When New Orleans was first destroyed, our family talked a lot about whether or not it was some kind of punishment for evil that existed there.
Our conclusion was the disaster might have actively been from God, but our overall question was: is New Orleans really any more wicked a place than Detroit? Or New York? Or San Francisco? Or Seattle? Or Washington D.C.?
I doubt it. There's plenty of evil in all those cities: they have the murder, rape, and other crime statistics to prove it.
So I suppose I'm still undecided too. God may have judged and punished New Orleans to get peoples' attention. If so, there must be a lot of other cities in line behind it.
37. Tomes said the following at 4:31 PM on Jun 5:
Yes, sexual sin is just one of the many other sins, which distract and lead us away from a living relationship with Father God.
At the end, this sinfulness is just showing us all in which season this world is in.
1) Matthew 7:13-14
2) Matthew 7:26
3) Matthew 13:40-42
4) Romans 8:12-14
5) 1 Corinthians 6:5-11
6) Galatians 5:16-21
7) Philippians 3:19
8) 1 Timothy 4:1-2
9) 1 Timothy 6:10
10 Timothy 3:1-5
11)2 Timothy 4:3-4
12)James 5:1-6
Dear brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, I leave you with the following words of encouragement:
Luke 8:15
"`And that in the ***good ground***: These are THEY [The true Children of Father God], who in an upright and good heart, having ***heard*** the WORD, do ***keep** it , and bear FRUIT in continuance."
38. Chris said the following at 7:41 PM on Jun 5:
This claim of God abandoning America reeks of collective punishment/reward. In other words, all are punished/rewarded by God based on the actions of some.
This seems inherently unfair. If both my sons get into a fight with each other, I punish both. But if one takes a clear pot shot at the other who's not doing anything, I only punish the one.
What type of God punishes a believer for the actions of others? If one does what one can (praying, helping others to the best of his/her abilities, voting his/her conscience) but others (the media, political leaders, people with money and power, etc.) manage to do something wrong, why is the good person punished, especially when those with power/money often have the resources to avoid or minimize the consequences of their actions?
39. Dr. Paul Anderson said the following at 9:08 PM on Jun 29:
Topic: When God Abandons A Nation
When comparing the Apostle Paul's letters to the Romans, from which Dr. John drew his conclusion regarding the U.S., with the Historic writings of Edward Gibbons, regarding the demise of Rome, it's not difficult to understand why his conclusions are correct.
I am reminded of the words of the Historian and poet George Santayana when he said: Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
As long as mankind continues to disobey and reject God, he will continue to suffer the error of his ways.
There is nothing more wonderful than knowing and experiencing the joy and pease that our Saviour can bring, when one totally submits his will to the loving care of the father, of our Saviour Jesus Christ.
40. Scott said the following at 9:34 PM on Jun 30:
The question "Has God Abandoned America? " is the wrong question. We have never been a Christian nation. As such, we shouldn't be surprised God has abandoned America - the better question should be why has He blessed us so much?
Church attendance during the Revolutionary Era and rest of the late 1700s was around 10%, and religion had taken on a liberal, deistic tendency. The ardent believers were in a serious minority at the time, and many of the Scotch-Irish Presbyterians who were vital to winning the Revolution would not have supported the War if they knew America would become a secular state in the outcome. Men like Patrick Henry said as much when they opposed the constitution, in part, because of its non-recognition of Christianity as the faith of the American state.
While my church-state politics are far from typical in an American Christian (as I'm fairly theocratic in the 1646 Westminster Confession sense), I don't think attempting to recover what I don't think ever existed is helpful. It's a lot more than abortion and gay rights - this issue permeates the constitutional framework and lots of the other policies of our time.
41. Eric said the following at 7:27 AM on Sep 13:
I lived in New Orleans, and yes, there is ALOT more evil there than other cities such as DC and Detroit, etc. Crime rates may be similar, but the immoral and gluttonous behavior in New Orleans is unmatched. The voodoo culture, which is very anti god, is strong. Have you been to bourbon street? Its a haven for booze, drugs, and sex. These things do not show up on crime rate statistics, but are very evil nonetheless. I am not saying booze and sex are evil, but the way they are abused in this city is very evil. Also, the gay culture in new orleans is out of control. So yes, New Orleans is more evil than other cities. Just comparing crime rates is not a valid argument.
BUT, I personally believe that God abandoned America when Roe vs. Wade was passed and the killing of innocent lives was made legal.