Does Success Require Long Work Hours?
by Steve Watters on 06/26/2007 at 10:27 AM
"If you're the first one in in the morning and the last one to leave at night, and you take fewer vacation days and never take a sick day, you will do better than the people who don't do that. It's very simple."
This is New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg's advice to college graduates captured in today's Wall Street Journal. This portion of the article especially caught my eye:
The mayor also said he's raised two daughters who have turned out very well, "thanks to their mother, no thanks to me." He praised his father, William H. Bloomberg, "who worked seven days a week his entire life until he checked himself into the hospital to die."
Certainly, one way to be successful in business is to never leave the office. But long hours at work can, in some cases, cause burnout, as well as problems at home.
One reader's response to Bloomberg's advice was "What matters is not the amount of time spent in an office but the quality and impact of the contribution."
I often hear and read that today's graduates aren't as interested in working the kinds of hours Bloomberg recommends and are more interested in having balanced lives that leave room for family (something many grads wish their parents had done).
How about you? Are you in a field that demands these kinds of hours? Are you in a profession (or moving towards one) that requires the Bloomberg lifestyle and doesn't see any problem with ignoring Sabbath rest and family investment? Does it really require a high volume of hours to "do better" and if so what kind of "better" does that pace achieve?
1. Ben said the following at 10:50 AM on Jun 26:
I am a water resource engineer in Colorado. I also am involved in youth ministry, going to seminary via correspondence and preparing for ministry overseas. I have made it a point of working no more than 40 hours a week with the once or twice a year crunch of 45-50 hours. My life is much richer and my work is no less successful. Many of my coworkers work very long weeks, but it hasn't advanced them any further than I have gotten. My company and bosses are pleased with my work and work ethic so it has not been a issue to work the minimum. I also have made it a point to only work 40 hours now because the tendency as the years go by is to creep the hours up. I am only two years into the working world and desire to maintain healthy balance for life so I refuse to work long hours now so that the pattern is set if or when I get married and have kids. This also allows me more time to serve Christ in ministry outlets.
2. mindlab said the following at 11:03 AM on Jun 26:
The number of hours I'm going to be expected to work (once I graduate and get an honest job!) is something of a concern. I'm currently an engineering grad student, and most of the people I have known in the engineering industry were men working hours that I consider inappropriate for husbands and fathers; 50 hours is low in my experience and 60 is more typical.
Granted, some of these men were single, but many were married with children, and (no surprise) many were divorced. By God's grace, I'll find a job that will feed my future family and still allow me to actually live life with them, but I will likely be the odd one out for doing so.
On the other hand, it's unlikely that any job will be as time consuming as grad school is some weeks!
3. kman said the following at 11:09 AM on Jun 26:
"you will do better than the people who don't do that" In what way? More money, prestige, position, responsibilty? What?
No mention is made for what you give up to do "better".
It also seems to imply that doing "better" at work is an end all be all goal of life.
As Christians we are called to do our work diligently and well to honor Christ. However we're not called to worship work . Our work is to be under the Lordship of Christ. ANd I don't know how effective people are trying to work while sick and possibly spreading the sickness to co-workers in the process?? If I had an employee that's ill, stay home, get better and don't spread it around.
Even work animals get rest.
"If you're the first one in in the morning and the last one to leave at night, and you take fewer vacation days and never take a sick day".....you need to get a life LOL
4. Patrick said the following at 11:21 AM on Jun 26:
In a perfect world, companies would recognize the contribution of each person and reward them appropriately. In theory, someone who was very bright or efficient could work half a day and have twice the impact as someone working a full day. However, since the boss is probably busy himself, taking number of hours worked as a proxy for productivity is done most of the time in practice. As a new employee, you're still learning the system and inevitably it will take you longer to do things so working more than the "standard 40" at a new position is to be expected. In the academic engineering community (I'm a graduate student in chemical engineering), people work very hard during their younger years and tend to slow down as they get older. I still heartily agree with taking a Sabbath and having family life but I'll be the first to admit my recreation time is somewhat limited by work demands at this point.
5. Kim said the following at 11:40 AM on Jun 26:
I just looked up and read the article, and the last paragraph says this:
Nearing the end, Bloomberg cautioned about gauging success. “Just because you have more money than the other guy doesn’t make you any better a person—or make you any more successful. It doesn’t mean in government being elected to a higher office than the other person. That is not the only measure of success.”
6. Leann K. said the following at 12:00 PM on Jun 26:
I try not to work over 40 hours a week, but I have a boss (who is a woman) who constantly works 50-60 hours per week. She takes work home and has admitted to me that her family has suffered because of it (she has three sons and a husband at home) but that she loves her job. It's hard to work for someone like this when I value my family over my work and we have two opposing viewpoints. However, I've been having to work through my lunches lately due to an on-going project and in order to meet my deadline, I need the extra time. I don't want to stay late. I hate staying late. I just want to go home to my husband when 5:00 rolls around...
7. Oxanna said the following at 12:30 PM on Jun 26:
Well, I'm female, so I don't have to worry as much about "getting ahead" in a job for the sake of family. However, what does Bloomberg mean by "getting ahead"? Money? Status? Family? Spiritual health? I don't think that, unless one gets into a field that is particularly hours-heavy, a man necessarily has to work himself to the bone to "get ahead".
Since I don't have experience working full time, what I say is from the entry-level perspective. :) But I have noticed that hours for young people can be pretty brutal if you don't stand up and say, "Hey, I can't work that way!" There's an expectation that young people don't have as many other things going on - family, etc. - but that's not always the case. You wouldn't believe how difficult it is to refuse Sunday work. Some places just require it, other places require it every so often, and there are some (mainly small businesses, not big-box retailers) who will be OK with not working Sundays. Apparently Hobby Lobby is owned by Christians, or at least people who respect Christians, and it is closed on Sundays. Yay for them!
8. Cath said the following at 12:59 PM on Jun 26:
I'm a teacher and though we get summers off... [whee!] the amount that some teachers work during the year is outrageous! Some are on multiple committees and run multiple extra-curricular activities and if they have a family I think their families must suffer terribly. I know a drama teacher who told me that she does at least 20 hours of extra-curricular stuff all year and she loves it. I sure wouldn't! I try to pick only a few extra-curricular events/activities that I will be involved in. So far it's been various fundraising campaigns, etc. This way other teachers and my bosses see I am putting in a bit of extra effort and they will be [are] happy with what I'm doing. I know I'll never be in a certain group of really 'dedicated' [maybe workaholic?] teachers, though.
9. Julia said the following at 1:15 PM on Jun 26:
I am a mechanical engineer in Canada. I definitely feel under pressure to work more than the average 40 hour work week. I see most of the engineers working at least 50 hours a week, and working up to 70 hours per week during certain phases of a project.
The pressure is even greater on the female engineers. We often do not receive the same level of respect as our male collegues unless we perform better and work harder and longer.
I wish that I had realized what a family-unfriendly and female-unfriendly career I had chosen before I was $25,000 in debt for student loans.
10. Elena said the following at 1:41 PM on Jun 26:
My good friend SalsaGuy is a post-doc in cancer biology. To keep his current post-doc position and be renewed each year (for a total of 3 years max), he is expected to work 50, 60, even up to 80 hours. (Maybe even more.) Forty hours is seen as "slacking"!!
I know he wants to find a woman to marry and to begin a family. And that he doesn't want to be a distant/absentee father when he has kids. He wants to be involved with his family. Wants to be involved in his church and to enjoy his hobbies. To be a well-rounded, whole person. Not a workaholic.
I asked SalsaGuy if this expectation of so many hours in the lab was due to the nature of his field, due to the nature of scientific research in general, or due to the culture of scientific research. He said, "All of the above."
Wow... seems ridiculous to me. (But my background is in the humanities, so the scientific world is foreign to me.)
Poor guy. He's not sure how it will all get worked out. But he knows God is building his faith muscle through this season. I just pray that he will seize opportunities to find that balanced life now, even while he's still single....preparing for when he has a wife and children.
I like the motto: "Don't work harder; work smarter." That is, just churning out the work and putting in more hours do not automatically mean higher quality products, more creative ideas, better solutions, and excellence in performance.
Sometimes that famous Puritan work ethic we Americans have so embraced..... is BUNK.
11. BDB said the following at 1:46 PM on Jun 26:
Success may not require long hours, but certain jobs DO require long hours. Anything in management, or at a director level, will probably require 50-60 hours/week. That is normal and expected. This is because the job will typically require 20-30 hours of individual work, and the balance to be meeting with people - clients, employees, peers, etc. Those meetings are not productive time, but they are necessary.
Hard-core professional jobs, such as consulting, law, public accounting, etc. add travel expectations to these work-hour expectations. So if you choose one of those fields, expect to be away from home up to 80 hours/week.
There are several things that can be done to limit the need for that. First, limit student loan debt - if you don't have the debt, you can afford to take a lower-paying job with less demanding requirements. Second, limit your material expectations - a less expensive car, house, less flashy travel all make it easier to live on a smaller income. Finally, pray about your education and career - chances are good that God will lead you to a place that still allows you to observe a sabbath.
I know lots of people who make less money than me but spend more - they utilize more debt and brag about their "stuff." They think I'm boring. I've had to learn to take a lot of pressure from people - and family - who think I should be spending more money. Luckily I have a powerful personality and am comfortable pushing back.
It's good to remember that if you're dating someone with an expensive car, they will probably also have trouble keeping their work in a manageable box - they have golden handcuffs.
12. Joseph said the following at 2:41 PM on Jun 26:
I get the vibe that success in this conotation implies monetary success or are we talking about each individual's idea of success?
I hope to be a good provider for my family like any self respecting man, but my stipulation is I will not enter a career which I cannot choose family or work, under the present situation I find myself in for the next couple of years I must remain single to stay true to that commitment/ideal.
13. Moose said the following at 2:49 PM on Jun 26:
Yes. Unfortunately, if you don't put in the time, you don't get promoted.
14. k. said the following at 3:16 PM on Jun 26:
My normal workweek is about 40-50 hours, but it's typical for this to shoot up to 70 during crunch times. So, a couple of times a year, I warn my friends that I'll be vanishing for the next few weeks. Of course I won't be able to do this when I have a family, but for now it's not too bad.
Often, putting in some unappealing hours in your early career is just part of the territory, especially in competitive fields.
15. kman said the following at 3:27 PM on Jun 26:
"they utilize more debt and brag about their "stuff."
Ask them how long it will take for them to pay off that stuff and how much more they pay for it in interest when they're through? ;)
16. Rebecca said the following at 3:34 PM on Jun 26:
Was discussing this with my roommate just the other day! We live in a major metropolitan area that is not cheap, but we both are committed to having lives that embrace relationships and allow us to have interesting experiences. This means that we budget hard, and work hard during our 40 hrs, and then we go home.
I have consciously chosen to work in work environments where my values are understood. This often means less money, less prestigeous organizations or positions, and sometimes even a little less work satisfaction. But I want to have a real life that isn't only about making money. However, it is VERY hard to do this and it is especially hard not to lose your commitment when everything, including bosses, advertising and your own coveteousness drives you to work harder and make more money.
Men, thank you so much for your willingness to think about this now, even before you are married. Having a husband and father that can be home is one of the greatest joys in life!
17. Don said the following at 3:35 PM on Jun 26:
While not exactly the same, my current job requires long, weird hours all the time. I manage a movie theatre and I hardly ever see my family because we have to be open 7 days a week. Sure, I get some days off, but I'd much rather spend more time with my mom and sister... that's probably because my primary love language is quality time.
Even though I have to work on Sundays, I'm ok with it because I only work Sunday night and I get to teach Sunday school and attend the morning worship service. I only wish I could get more involved on other days of the week.
18. Anya said the following at 3:37 PM on Jun 26:
I'm starting my first post-education job as a law firm associate starting in the fall, and I'm already a bit worried about how this job and my life will coexist.
I'll be expected to bill 40 hours a week, which means working about 70 or so hours per week, perhaps more during a big closing. And, though the Blackberry has some great uses, it also has the unfortunate consequence in any job of making you instantly accessible at all times.
The tough part is that starting your career at firms is typically people's best option. Our student loan debt is really high(6 figures isn't uncommon), but if you're responsible you can really pay down your debt load. More importantly, since firms have the resources to train people well, a large majority of other legal employers wait and hire people who leave firms a few years down the road when they want/need a lifestyle change, so that they can get people with experience and skills right out of the box.
I never thought I'd get out and take a job at a big firm because of how awful the rumors of the lifestyle are, but after working there last summer I really liked the place. I absolutely love the work, but more importantly, the people there are unlike those I saw anywhere else. The people work hard and long hours, but are never in the office because they feel like they're having to put in face time. They have families and lives, and took obvious pleasure in their work. Spouses I met liked the firm. A few women work "part time" (which is actually about 40 hours a week...), but it's an option that many places don't have. There is a large emphasis on pro bono work in the community. One of the big partners in the group I'll be working in is a strong Christian who was living his faith despite the busy schedule. It was still a place of business where people work long hours, but attention there really is placed on helping workers at every have more to their lives that just being an attorney.
But all that said, I'm still nervous about work. I think I'm just going to have to set boundaries and fight hard to keep balance on both sides of my life. And, as much as I do really like the place, accept the fact that as a Christian woman it may not be the place I can stay my entire work life.
Still, it's scary though, to wonder if all this time, effort, and sacrifice is still meaningful if just a few years down the road I decide to stay at home...
19. florida_grl said the following at 3:37 PM on Jun 26:
Women canot expect powerful men to be "home for supper every day." This is what a wise lady told me. I took that and tried to figure out what type of man I would want to marry. I meet all kind of guys: those who work long hours, those who work business hours only, or those who work the hours they want. With that in mind I realize that whomever I do end up marrying will have an effect on the lifestyle I will have. God can only be the guide.
I believe that to be true. A woman cannot expect a man to be in a position that requires long hours to also be home raising the kids. It's not really a trade-off as much as a shared responsibility of building a life together. Some men are made for powerful influential positions such as business men, attorneys, speakers, etc. Look at Billy Graham. I doubt he was home every night. The man should be a part of his kids life but it is the woman who runs the household and nurtures so it is a safe, pleasant environment. A home is built by two people, a duty shared by both, as e supports whatever the husband is called to do. Reading PROVERBS 31 I am realizing the huge responsibility of a wife. It is how God intended it.
I wish I knew that before I let go of a great guy friend of mine who was on his way to becoming a corporate attorney. Time was so important to him. Between law school and a corporate position he hardly had time to breathe.
I knew I could not hold that against him. A relationship was not possible to develop so I moved on because I wasn't patient and mature enough to realize that all of us have a calling and we must support each other. I wanted someone that would be with me all the time.
I am now realizing that this is so influenced by the culture we live in. Succesful men (who make a lot of money, or are out there in the front lines) tend to be portrayed as workaholics and their wives as "stay at home moms" or "trophy wives." No wonder the guys have no idea what to do and which way to go as they are also trying to become who they're meant to be. We need to support each others as brothers and sisters in Christ.
As I am growing in my spiritual walk I have to realize that as a woman I am called to be a partner...the proverbs 31 ideal wife in training is not easy.
20. Jeanette said the following at 4:13 PM on Jun 26:
I am a young, single, junior corporate attorney finding herself at the office before and after everyone on many days. There definitely is an implicit expectation that, given my outrageous salary, I should be available when my superiors (professionally, if not existentially!) need me. It also takes me longer to grasp certain concepts & accomplish certain tasks than it would a more seasoned attorney.
I know I can't put in these hours once I have a family. But for this season in my life, I do feel God's pleasure in the hard work I do in the office. There are so many opportunities to know and trust God in a different, meatier, day-to-day way as I struggle through the constant mental & spiritual challenges of working in a demanding corporate environment. I find myself clinging to the spiritual disciplines b/c I know nothing else will keep me steady throughout the turbulent day. And I have unique opportunities to live out the gospel as I interact with fellow yuppies that feel anxious and lost despite their degrees and bank accounts.
All this being said, it takes sometimes-wearying effort & intentionality on my part to be invested in a community outside of work and keep the Sabbath holy. But every season & walk of life has its own struggles, no?
21. Rachel said the following at 4:48 PM on Jun 26:
At my church the priests seem to be at their jobs from early morning to late night, six days a week, with hardly any breaks except for prayer. They follow Bloomberg's advice and I'd say they're very successful, in the way that matters most. :) But most of us haven't vowed celibacy and we don't have jobs we can work at with single-minded devotion. Instead we have obligations in several different spheres: our job, our family, our church, and the whole human family. We can't take Bloomberg's advice to succeed on the job without failing our other duties.
I think becoming successful in God's sight *does* require long hours-- but those hours have to be divided among all our spheres of obligation.
What you can't do if you want to be successful is waste time. I've never met a godly person who was lazy. I doubt anyone who's watching hours of TV every night is pleasing God (unless the person in question works as a TV critic!) "Idle hands do the devil's work"-- I'm sure the devil counts it as a victory if he can just get God's people to *do nothing* instead of being fruitful. But quality time with family and fellowship with friends isn't doing nothing-- it's doing something very important. :)
22. Sara said the following at 4:52 PM on Jun 26:
Kim wrote:
"I just looked up and read the article, and the last paragraph says this:
Nearing the end, Bloomberg cautioned about gauging success. “Just because you have more money than the other guy doesn’t make you any better a person—or make you any more successful. It doesn’t mean in government being elected to a higher office than the other person. That is not the only measure of success.” "
Thanks for the info. Excerpting can never be neutral, still it's not fair to make someone's arguments seem more one-sided than they really are, just for the sake of igniting discussion, if that's what was unconsciously done. If you're going to take paragraphs from articles out of context, it should be done with respect.
23. Holly said the following at 4:59 PM on Jun 26:
I often tell people that I just graduated with my Bachelor's in Physics and I NEVER pulled an all-nighter!
It is very possible and essential to balance your work/school time with personal/family time.
I'm working at a summer camp now and I made it clear on my interview that I didn't want to work more than 40 hours. A lot of the other counselors ask whether or not I'll make enough money by the end of the summer. I tell them it's more important to me to have the time off and live frugally than work my entire summer.
The patterns we set now as 20 somethings are forecasts for what we'll do later in life.
24. BDB said the following at 5:28 PM on Jun 26:
kman wrote:
>>Ask them how long it will take for them to pay off that stuff and how much more they pay for it in interest when they're through? ;)<<
Yes, that's a good way for me to upset them. They haven't done the math, or if they have, they feel they "deserve" it.
Several years ago I was talking with friends who took the opposite route - much lower paying jobs with lots of time. They are very happy - but make do without owning a house, or new cars or things like that. They have friends with lots of debt who complain bitterly about the time work takes.
Incidentally, the way to control your time is to be underemployed. If you stop your advance up the corporate ladder below where your capabilities are, then you can get very good at your job - so good that people will be very flexible with your schedule. My boss could easily get promoted. He's stayed at this level for 20 years, and as he's gone through a few bosses, they always are so happy with his results that they don't care that he sets certain days of the week to leave at 5pm and be home for dinner. Yes, he might e-mail by Blackberry on the weekend sometimes. But the other thing I noticed getting the BB is that almost no one in my company sends me things on Saturday. So, I programmed it to not even turn itself on until 3pm. As long as I'm consistent and get my deliverables done on time, it would be easy for me to schedule in anything from dinner to, I don't know, a soccer game.
(Though we should have another thread about how children are over-scheduled and don't know what to do with themselves when they have free time to just "play.")
25. Chris said the following at 8:32 PM on Jun 26:
I've seen a lot of comments about the hours required for various professions (particularly engineering), and I'd like to note my experience as an engineer.
First, if you want a good work/life balance, work for a small company. Besides many professional benefits (you'll wear so many hats, you'll get far more experience in a short time), you'll probably get more flexibility. Many small companies cannot pay the salaries that large companies do (though some do), so you'll find more flexibility as compensation. Worked a lot last week to meet that deadline? Take Friday off. After working an insane schedule for several months, I took off almost an entire December with a combination of vacation and generous comp. time. That was sweet.
Additionally, I think you're judged more on output than face-time in small companies. Your boss will more likely know what you're doing and when, so he/she will tend (in my experience) to be more accomodating. The best combination is a small company where your boss has (or had) kids/family, too.
Second, avoid meetings...at all costs. 99% of meetings serve no productive purpose. Any meeting longer than an hour automatically falls into this category. Arrange to talk to a customer one hour after a meeting starts. No manager will hold you back when you say, "I've got a conference call with a customer in one hour." Don't have one? Ask a friend to "interrupt" the meeting with an "important call" from the customer. The closer you are to a customer, the better you'll be able to do this. Not close to the customer? Arrange "meetings" right after ones that serve no purpose so you can rush to the next one.
When you start to run your own meetings, rule the time with an iron fist. Send out an agenda and stick to it. Start the meeting exactly on time. If your boss is late, it's his/her fault. At my company, there's a rule for staff meetings. Each minute late (for the first five minutes) is $5 into the food kitty, even if you're the CEO. You'll gain a reputation as someone who accomplishes things instead of wasting time if you run meetings properly. You'll also find people more willing to come to your meetings.
Keep your boss aware of everything you're doing. If it looks like you're doing a lot, you'll have less of a need to prove yourself with face time.
Finally, draw a line in the sand, either explicitly or implicitly. Unless your job requires you to be on call, make yourself unavailable after work (except to those respected coworkers who will only bother you in a real emergency and whom you can bother in a real emergency). Do NOT give out your personal cell phone number to your employer. Make up excuses (dead battery, left it on vibrate, 2 year old pushed buttons and erased the voicemail) if needed. If your employer doesn't respect it, start looking for another job.
26. James said the following at 8:47 PM on Jun 26:
I'm in engineering and right now, they're telling us straight up to NOT work more than 40/week, as it simply would be a waste of money to be paying overtime. And, truth be told, after this latest crunch period of getting our product to TSO submittal, no one wants to work more than 40.
The company I work for right now as an intern is the kind of company I want to work for afterwards as well: competitive, but still concerned about the employee and his/her life outside of work (b/c the healthier of a life one has outside of work makes for a better employee they've found).
Whoever I work for will have to realize that though I will work hard and put in my share of hours (and overtime when needed), that I still have a life outside of the workplace and that it is just one small facet of my life.
27. Jonathan from Canada said the following at 8:54 PM on Jun 26:
When Bloomberg remarked "no thanks to him" about his daughters upbringing, it could either be a mark of extreme modesty or it could indicate he was an absent father. Who knows.
Col 3:23-24 says "Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving."
That's pretty unclear. I think however, 40 hours is an entirely arbitrary figure. A week has 168 hours. Who decided 40 is a good benchmark? The government? Certainly not the Bible. I doubt that back in those days people popped in at 9 and out at 5, with union mandated breaks and all.
Having said that, I would say that men who are fathers have a responsibility to their families first. Just because one "only" works 37.5 hours doesn't mean he spends more time with his wife and children than one who works 67.5 hours.
28. Luke said the following at 9:21 PM on Jun 26:
”How about you? Are you in a field that demands these kinds of hours?
Yes. I work in construction management and never work less than 50 hours a week. Up to 70, while uncommon, is not unheard of. My previous position required a habitual 60, but I just couldn’t hang with it…especially with no passion for my career. Not to mention, people who live in a metro area need to tack on commute time. Some nut cases will even drive up to an hour each way. My personal round trip is just over an hour, but even that adds up.
I read an article on career burnout a couple of years ago (couldn’t find it to reference) and according to the article, I was experiencing 8 of the 10 signs of burnout within 3 years after my college graduation. That’s probably not good.
At this point I’m trying desperately to get out of this industry, but it’s tough when you have a specialized degree. Someone might say to just go somewhere else (again) but based on my experience and the experience of others I know in the field, I’m in an industry of workaholics. My father is a regretful former workaholic. He sat my brother and I down a few years back and actually apologized to us. I got to witness first hand the toll that his work took on his health, and I vowed to never do it. Yet here I am, well on my way.
I think grad school is looking pretty good right now. Hopefully, it can open some other doors for me. It’s going to be tough to sell the house and take on debt again (I’m debt free right now, other than the mortgage, wooo!) But I think it may be worth it.
29. Lisa said the following at 9:53 PM on Jun 26:
hmm does success require long hours at work? I can see this from a cariety of perspectives. I am both an employee and employer. I expect my employees to put in the work required to get the work done to an excellent standard not a mediocre standard and get slacked off when they do some wishy washy half attempt but by the same token as an employee in my OTHER job I am expected to work very very long hours for no monetary gain as I am paid a salary. My other job is more of a vocation rather than a job and to a certain extent I find it hard to leave the work alone as I am inputting into peoples lives ( I am a teacher).
30. Leah said the following at 12:25 AM on Jun 27:
"Does Success Require Long Work Hours?"
No.
What are you categorising as "successful" anyway? Being in the top 2% of people in your company? Earning enough that you and your family can live comfortably? Earning enough that enables you to carry out your ministry while keeping you alive?
31. Jack said the following at 4:27 AM on Jun 27:
A lovely piece of info!
32. whs said the following at 5:23 AM on Jun 27:
There seems to be quite a bit of compartmentalization going on here about work. Work is not bad. Ministry is work. Just as is doing laundry and the dishes. Things that have to get done every day/week just to make life work.
How many hours do you think pastors put in a week?
33. Bethany M said the following at 6:02 AM on Jun 27:
I am working at a public accounting firm, and during busy season (January - April), everyone works 6 days a week, generally 60-80 hour weeks. The rest of the year isn't too bad, so most people consider it a trade-off.
My manager has 2 young kids, so she is on a special flexible arrangement where she 'only' works 40 hours per week for the entire year. These arrangements are pretty common for mothers -- dropping some hours, working 1 or 2 days per week from home, etc. But I must assume that it changes their clout and reputation around the office. I mean if everyone else is working more than you are, it's hard to feel you're pulling your weight.
Ultimately it comes down to priorities. Kids are only kids for a small, finite number of years. Before that and after that, you have the freedom to work harder and be more successful in your career. But it's worth the sacrifice for that set amount of time, rather than regretting for the rest of your life the fact that you didn't spend time with and invest in your children.
34. Robert J Espe said the following at 6:56 AM on Jun 27:
When I was counseling my brother on how much money he could plan to make over the summer, my dad commented that he works harder than I do :-)
I smile because he was right. But I'll blame him for giving me a copy of "Your Money or Your Life". Up until my last year of college (even during summers) I worked a flexing schedule of between 12 and 22 hours a week. It payed my bills, and I invested the leftover time at home and at church. I also had some great fun building a couple sailboats, and being part of a Christian music group. I won't get to do that again to the same extent.
Now that I am married, I work more, 32 hours a week in the summer. Still pays the bills, and leaves me with time to do things my wife doesn't have time for. She works the same number of hours, but more hours on days she does work, so I cook, clean, buy groceries, do laundry and run errands in the time before she comes home.
Honestly, I'm happy, and feel successful. I love having the extra time with my wife. I wish I could work 30 hours a week forever. The hard part isn't money, doing with less is easy. It is finding a job where a part time position won't either get slashed or where you can get health benefits.
35. J-Twinkle said the following at 7:27 AM on Jun 27:
Yes, you are called to be a partner, but he is called to be the head of the home. How can he do that if every time he's at home, he's checked out, thinking about work? (and I'm not saying this doesn't cut both ways here). Just because a man is called to be a provider and protector doesn't mean that negates his responsibility to be a father. One responsibility does not cancel the other. What this simply means is that men and women need to have these frank discussions about work and career BEFORE they get married.
My primary love language is quality time, followed by affirmation and gifts of service. The bottom line is this---I do not believe that I can be a marriage relationship with someone who: a) uses his work to trump his responsibility to be a parent and husband and b)looks at success only through how far he's gotten at his job. Knowing this, I have no inclination to get involved with someone who will consistently choose his job over his family when work comes calling (which is why I wouldn't be involved with someone who is a pastor or involved in full-time ministry)
36. v@v said the following at 8:32 AM on Jun 27:
I've always said that if I was going to work longer hours, I wanted to do it in my youth (where my responsibilites are different), and it's always been seen as "paying your dues" -- i.e., working longer hours when you're at the bottom, to have more flexibility later. I don't know how true that is.
I work in the editorial/publishing/news field -- I only work 40 hours a week (and at times, I think that is too much.) I know, for sure, that if I can help it, I don't want to be doing these hours when I have a family.
I completely agree that our cultures expectations of what it means to be a hard worker influence our perceptions -- I see it so much the older I get. We really have to question our standards. What is our standard of success, work ethic based on? Lest we meet someone who works less hours, chooses a different kind of career, and we judge them as unsuccessful, and not ambitious....I guess it depends on what kind of ambitions we prize.
37. Mandi said the following at 8:48 AM on Jun 27:
The mayor also said he's raised two daughters who have turned out very well, "thanks to their mother, no thanks to me."
He just shot down his whole point about doing "better" with that!
38. Julia said the following at 9:25 AM on Jun 27:
Thank-you Chris for that much needed advice. I do in fact work for a large company, but I think that I can try some of your other strategies - especially the part about the cell phone and meetings.
Any thoughts on how I can avoid feeling guilty leaving at 5PM when many of my coworkers are sticking around to 7PM regularly?
39. Shazia said the following at 9:55 AM on Jun 27:
I understand that some people have reservations about working over 40 hours a week if they have families (and I empathize with them) but even if you are single, can't a 40-plus hour week take some toll on your personal life as well?
What if you are a single person who wants to be proactive in eventually finding a spouse, or eventually dating with the ultimate goal of marriage? And what if the demands of a 40-plus (I don't mean 40 but I am implying overtime) job is detrimental to those wishes because you feel that you will not have the time to find someone?
I kind of feel silly (and selfish somehow for being worried about "having any life"!) for asking this but it has been on my mind since the beginning of this thread...
40. Steve Watters said the following at 10:02 AM on Jun 27:
Thanks to Sara for finding additional material from Bloombeg's speech. The Wall Street Journal didn't include that portion. It does provide some helpful context.
This has been a great discussion with a lot of insightful posts. I was reminded reading through them of the concept of "lifestyle entrepreneurs."
It's the idea of people deciding what kind of life they want to have (in terms of family, ministry, pursuits, etc.) and then finding the kind of work that makes that kind of lifestyle most possible. The book I read about this (and unfortunately I can't remember the name), described people who passed on both the "consumer/worker treadmill" model and the "live at the office" model in order to limit their work and consumption patterns to a pace that made more meaningful things in life possible.
41. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:07 AM on Jun 27:
I think it's dangerous to try and set specific thresholds for what is considered "too many" work hours. A lot of it depends upon the people involved.
Some for example don't mind at all 60+ hour work weeks if the work is meaningful and satisfying. Or if those hours are accepted as "standard". Take farmers for example. Many are up at the crack of dawn (often earlier) and work the until the sun goes down. Yet few complain with the hours and their families don't seem to bemoan them either.
In my opinion "too many" is when your work starts to interfere and affect your family life negatively. A lot of this affect though depends upon the attitudes and perceptions of the family members involved. For some wives (and husbands too, let's not be stereotypical), they expect their spouses to be home for dinner at 6:00 every evening. Some expect them to be free each and every weekend. Another family might still be "healthy" if the mom/dad is away for days at a time only coming home a few times a month. It all depends.
However, I will say in defense of the article that there is a tendancy to overlook the quality time needs of a family and to justify our long hours in the office for providing for them when in fact part of that provision includes emotional support as well.
In conclusion, it all boils down to what a person wants/expects in a career and family expectations. A family should not be suprised that someone earning $100K/yr as an executive needs to work long hours. And if there is a strong tension between work and family the Bible is clear that family needs to take priority. There have been too many instances where a family's emotional bank has been bankrupted and has resulted in divorce or resentment despite being financially successful.
42. Esther said the following at 11:32 AM on Jun 27:
While not a farmer, I work with the agricultural industry. During harvest I easily put in 60-70 hours. The rest of the year it's 40-45. When I was hired, I was told that I could work "easy" hours during the off season to make up for the long hard ones. However, the unspoken attitudes and expectations are that we work are there full time all year. Especially as the beginner, I feel uneasy asking to leave early. Being a small company, everyone has a variety of responsibilities, and if I say I have my work done, it usually means I get assigned new responsibilities, rather than getting the afternoon off.
43. BDB said the following at 12:27 PM on Jun 27:
Luke wrote:
>>Some nut cases will even drive up to an hour each way. My personal round trip is just over an hour, but even that adds up.<<
Oh, by the way, if I leave at 7pm instead of 5pm, my drive home is half as long - it can save me an hour a day when I work something different than 8 to 5.
Julia wrote:
>>Any thoughts on how I can avoid feeling guilty leaving at 5PM when many of my coworkers are sticking around to 7PM regularly?<<
Come in at 7am, leave at 5pm! OK, seriously, is everyone salaried? Professional environment? Are they chatting or working? In my office, those of us here until 7pm get a lot done from 5pm to 7pm - fewer interruptions. Then I can use vacation time and take a lot of Friday's off in exchange.
Chris' comments on time management and meetings are 100% correct. The one I'd add is to teach your staff to make decisions for themselves. I basically never shut off my cell phone because they never call me unless it's really an emergency. (And periodically my boss threatens to take away my phone if I use it less than 30 minutes in a month...one month I had only 8 minutes...)
Shazia wrote:
>>but even if you are single, can't a 40-plus hour week take some toll on your personal life as well? <<
Yes.
Mike Theemling wrote:
>>There have been too many instances where a family's emotional bank has been bankrupted and has resulted in divorce or resentment despite being financially successful.<<
Yes. I prefer to define this problem as "leadership." If a job leads a man to be too drained to provide leadership to his family, then he will likely lose both. Better to take a less demanding job. But that also puts some onus on their wives to be happy with less "stuff." If you want him home at 5pm for dinner, don't ask for a $30,000 kitchen upgrade (or equivalent) each year.
44. J-Twinkle said the following at 2:03 PM on Jun 27:
Mike:
Believe it or not, there are wives who would rather have their husbands at home and not be able to upgrade their kitchen. I think it also requires for working husbands to put themselves in their wives shoes LITERALLY for one day to see what their wives go through in staying at home and taking care of the children THEY BOTH brought into this world. Please also understand that not all women are expecting their husbands to immediately start talking about their day to their wives the second they get home. But they are expecting their spouses to actually LISTEN and to at least BE ALL THERE when talking about their day. If you need to decompress after the day, then let your wives know you need to do that for some time. But DO NOT use that as an excuse to not engage your spouse. For some women, intimacy spells T-A-L-K!
45. Mike Theemling said the following at 2:28 PM on Jun 27:
J-Twinkle you said:
"Believe it or not, there are wives who would rather have their husbands at home and not be able to upgrade their kitchen."
I agree. Where in my post did I imply otherwise? My point was that there are some women/men who would prefer to have their spouses home for longer hours and more consistently while there are others where it's important but can are comfortable with a more demanding schedule, and that the family itself to knows the threshold best.
However, I did comment that I think there are some couples/families who do delude themselves into thinking things are 'OK' when in fact they are growing further apart whether they know it or not. And that for any relationship to be successful there needs to have at least some form of regularity.
46. BDB said the following at 2:38 PM on Jun 27:
J-Twinkle wrote:
>>Please also understand that not all women are expecting their husbands to immediately start talking about their day to their wives the second they get home.<<
Why wait until he gets home? I figured that was what the 'ol cell phone headset was for - to start the conversation on the commute home. Multi-tasking!
47. Sara said the following at 3:57 PM on Jun 27:
That was Kim who got the quote, not me.
Some of you guys--Ben, Leann, and others--who manage do get so much done in eight hours a day: very inspiring. Have you always been this way? Sometimes I [pointlessly] regret how, growing up, I never had any chores or rules at all. I think it would be easier for me now if I didn't have to be just starting now, in university, to schedule my time and and get things done even if I don't feel like. Procrastination can so easily double the length of time it takes to get something done.
48. jcs said the following at 7:20 PM on Jun 27:
J-Twinkle wrote: "I think it also requires for working husbands to put themselves in their wives shoes LITERALLY for one day"
Wouldn't the husband be embarassed to leave the house with high heels on? And what if his wife wears a smaller shoe size than he does? LOL...I don't think "literally" is the word you wanted to use there...
49. jcs said the following at 7:24 PM on Jun 27:
Luke wrote: "Not to mention, people who live in a metro area need to tack on commute time. Some nut cases will even drive up to an hour each way."
'Nut cases'? Around here, an hour commute is NORMAL! The real nut cases are the people who drive 2 hours each way. Some people just can't resist the temptation of affording a country home AND having a job in the big city...
I'm in engineering, and the key to avoiding long work days is to find a company that pays by the hour. Overtime is expensive, and companies will hire more employees instead of forcing people to work a lot of overtime. On the other hand, if the position pays a salary, your boss will just give you a massive amount of work and expect you to do all of it.
50. Elizabeth said the following at 7:46 PM on Jun 27:
In one year I will be in a medical residency, the law permits residents to work 80 hours a week. And virtually all programs, work residents just shy of that number. In the case of medicine, you have to put in your time to have flexibility later on. If I don't do residency, I simply will never be a board certified physician. To complete residency, I have to work the hours given to me.
51. BDB said the following at 11:16 PM on Jun 27:
Elizabeth wrote:
>>In one year I will be in a medical residency, the law permits residents to work 80 hours a week.<<
Perhaps that explains why the doctors at Seattle Grace make such bad relationship choices...
52. Loris said the following at 7:07 AM on Jun 28:
I live a measly six miles away from my job and it takes me nearly an hour one way to get there. Some cities are just like that, in my case, Miami. I pushed my start time back an hour so it would only take me one hour to get there instead of one and a half or two. You definitely have to factor your commute into your total work hours.
53. Julia said the following at 8:13 AM on Jun 28:
I've never heard of an engineering company that pays its engineers by the hour. (Contractors and technicians maybe, but not engineers.)
I just hope that once my student loans are payed off my husband and I can sell the house, move to a different province and start a family. That's the career I really want, but right now we just can't afford it.
Right now, my husband has a great engineering job. He is probably a little underemployed for his skill set, and makes a lot less than I do, but he never works overtime and loves the work environment at his company. Then again, I'm in consulting and have a very specialized skill set and he works for one of my clients.
54. a said the following at 9:34 AM on Jun 28:
My husband is a dairy farmer, and so is his father. During this time of year it is not uncommon for him to work from 4am until 11pm every day except Sundays. Even Sundays he milks in the morning and evening. Even in the winter he still leaves the house at 5am and returns about 8pm due to milking and feed grinding etc... Is this wrong? No, because it is their chosen vocation and the animals would die without proper care. Although I miss my husband being at home, and I'm sure that it will be more of a struggle when we have children, I realize he takes his work seriously and is anything but lazy! He honors God in what he does. At least he enjoys it rather than working just for the money. Plus, I must look pretty good to him after the only women he's seen all day are of the bovine nature.
Also, about factoring in your commute. I have about an hour commute to my job in the city. I don't have a choice of where I live, because when I married my husband, I also married the farm, and I'm happy with my decision. I chose to keep my current job because there are not many other choices in the rural community where I live.
I work with people all day, so my commute is my time to be alone and reflect on my life. I actually somewhat enjoy it. I have The Bible and several other books on CD, and also a great collection of Praise and Worship music in my car. Or I will also use this time to talk to my friends on the cell phone.
If you have a long commute, don't waste your time complaining about it. Make it productive time between you and God! Praying while driving also prevents a lot of road rage--it's kind of hard to yell at other drivers when thinking of our Beautiful Savior's grace.
In conclusion, different jobs require different amounts of time. What does matter is that we're using our time wisely both in and outside of work and making sure that every minute you have with your loved ones has meaning. My dad worked three jobs and passed away when I was a little girl. I didn't have much time with him, but I still remember when he was home, he showered his love on our family. I consider my dad, my husband, and my father-in-law very successful men.
55. JCo said the following at 4:14 PM on Jun 28:
This is a prime example of the dynamics of the generation gap. 20somethings are not going to approach work and life (and the work/life balance) the same way that our baby boomer parents did.
The following article from the Mayo Clinic describes the different generations and their values very well.
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/WL/00045.html
56. jcs said the following at 9:14 PM on Jun 28:
Julia: I've worked at 4 different companies, in software development, and 2 of them paid their employees by the hour. There are many salaried positions in software development that require insane hours, but there are privately held companes that still pay their employees by the hour. Also, the company I work for now bills all work by the hour, directly to the federal government, so the employees keep track of how long they work and are paid accordingly.
I highly recommend taking a position that pays by the hour, if you can find one.