Na: Modest Clothing
by Ted Slater on 05/28/2007 at 9:13 AM
While watching the Boundless booth last night I met Christa Taylor, a young woman who's heading up a small business that offers "trendy and feminine modest dresses for modern women."
Through her online store, aptly named Christa Taylor, you can pick up dresses, skirts, tops, swimming suits and accessories. All designs are her own, which is pretty cool, and all the clothing is made in the U.S.
They "always give at least 30% of [their] profits towards the needs of the poor and towards social justice throughout the world."
I've appreciated modesty for quite a while now; it's great to have the Christian community step up and meet a need that is obvious to anyone walking through the mall, and doing so in a socially conscious way.
1. James said the following at 9:46 AM on May 28
I have a few lady friends who will be THRILLED to hear about a store like the one this lady runs. This is also going to be sent to my mother, who knows ladies who lament every time they need to buy clothes for their teenage daughters....and NOTHING at the stores even comes close to matching school dress code.
I'm definitely with Ted on this: modest clothing for women is NEEDED.
2. Melody said the following at 3:50 PM on May 28
This is great, I am so glad you guys posted the link. I just checked out the website and I am so excited to find cute modest clothing at good prices! I will be shopping there on a regular basis from now on.
3. k. said the following at 7:52 PM on May 28
I thought their clothing, while cute and fun, seemed geared toward a younger set (say, jr high/high school). Modesty is age-appropriate, meaning a grown woman can wear a sexy dress, while that same dress would look immodest and tacky on on a 14-yr-old, and positively obscene on a 10-yr-old.
And frankly, I wouldn't be caught dead in that swimsuit (http://www.christa-taylor.com/modest-swimwear/christa-taylor_classic-swimsuit_swimwear_07.html). If other women want to wear it, that's great...but I'll stick with my (rather conservative) bikini, thanks.
4. Hayley said the following at 6:36 AM on May 29
Her clothes are actually cute! I've seen other sites that design and sell modest clothing, but they're usually not cute.
Also, I like to shop at trendy stores (the ones that don't have disgusting advertising in there stores) and with some thought, creativity, (and layering) women can dress fashionable and modest.
5. Leah said the following at 8:04 AM on May 29
I had to laugh at you, k. I totally agree.
As for me and those clothes, they were nice, and I don't think they were geared towards high school age at all. Also, someone said they were good prices- for us Aussies, once you convert them to Aussie dollars they're actually kinda expensive, especially if you add postage on top of that. *shrug* I'm quite happy with the Fashion Fair, Valleygirl, KMart, JayJays, etc etc... :)
6. Ashleigh said the following at 8:10 AM on May 29
K., I'm a twenty-something mom of two, and honestly, I would wear many of the designs. I thought they were cute and can see many of my friends who are in their twenties, maybe even some in their thirties, wearing some of her items.
Also, frankly, I don't understand your statement about modesty being age-appropriate. Perhaps you can better explain what you mean by this. To me, modesty is just as important in my wardrobe choices as when I was in my teens. As a grown woman, I don't see how wearing a sexy dress out in public is appropriate. What would be the purpose of wearing it? After all, a woman can look nice and attractive without looking sexy. Just the word "sexy" conveys that the dress is designed to accentuate the body in a way that is sexually alluring. I believe that sexually alluring clothes are best left within the private marriage relationship.
On another note, what I love is that Christa didn't simply complain about there being a lack of modest clothing (which I think many of us, including myself, do). Instead, she did something about it!
7. Lauren said the following at 8:11 AM on May 29
This is awesome! Some friends of mine at the church office we work for have always dreamed of doing this but haven't had the time or skills! Way to go Christa! They'll be stoked someone actually did it!!!!
8. k. said the following at 10:15 AM on May 29
Sure. What I mean by a "sexy" dress is one that emphasizes the fact that you have a figure, or good legs, or whatever. It doesn't have to be skintight, revealing or even "alluring"...just a straightforward acknowledgement that you're a grownup, and part of being a grownup is sexual maturity, with the traits that go along with that. Showing your figure is a way of both attracting a mate, and advertising fertility. (Of course, there's a difference between looking attractive and looking cheap, but that's another topic.)
Which is why, if you're shopping for a wedding, you'll see that lots of times the flower girl is dressed quite differently from the bride, although both are wearing poofy white dresses: as a grown woman, the bride is able to wear a strapless dress and look perfectly acceptable. However, a 7-yr-old wearing that same dress on a smaller scale would look disturbing, which is why she gets the cute little dress with cap sleeves and a Peter Pan collar.
Imagine three women, ages 26, 14, and 10. Now, try to imagine them wearing the same dress...let's say a black formal dress with a V neck. The 26-yr-old can wear it successfully, because sexuality is part of being a grownup, However, a 14-yr-old wearing that same dress can look disturbing, because sexuality in young teens can be scary (which is why we normally want to avoid having our kids grow up too fast, and being 13 going on 25). And that same dress on a 10-yr-old would look REALLY awful, because it would be sexualizing a child, and that's a very scary thing.
I should add that I have nothing but respect for women who want to always be covered up...while I personally would never wear the swimsuit sold on that site, I really couldn't care less whether other women do. And I took a closer look at the clothes on that site, and yeah, I'd probably wear some of those clothes too. Although I have to say that I can't fathom leading a meeting dressed in polka dots and bows (http://www.christa-taylor.com/modest-dresses/b-tru_polka-dot_dress_07.html).
9. Ted Slater said the following at 10:32 AM on May 29
K. -- now you're just being silly. You wouldn't wear your bikini or pajamas or jean shorts while leading a meeting either, I assume. Of course you wouldn't wear a casual "retro-look" outfit if you were leading a professional meeting.
You're right in pointing out that many wedding gowns are immodest. A number of others have recognized this and are encouraging women to re-think what they wear on their special day.
You may be interested in the exploration of immodesty in wedding attire, for example, on the GirlTalk blog: Modesty on Your Wedding Day. Joshua Harris brings it up on his blog, as does Al Mohler on his blog. Please don't dismiss their points without honestly considering them.
10. Esther said the following at 10:54 AM on May 29
I have found myself dressing MORE modestly as I've gotten older. Clothing that I didn't think twice about in high school and college I am now uncomfortable in. I think it is an adult awareness that I don't want to be noticed for my body alone, when my personality, intelligence and spirit are of such greater value. I have found that it isn't actually that hard to shop modestly. The harder part is using the money God has given me in a responsible way. It's hard to justify spending $20 for a tank top when I could get a whole outfit at the Salvation Army for less.
11. Ashleigh said the following at 1:13 PM on May 29
K., thanks for offering a more detailed explanation of what you meant. I think I better understand what you were getting at in your original comment.
Honestly, though, I have to disagree with your logic. But that's the beauty of online discussions -- disagreements make them more interesting. :-)
In my opinion, the belief that we as women need to emphasize our sexuality (i.e., figure, good legs) to attract a mate and advertise fertility screams of buying into what secular society says is the right way to catch a man. Frankly, while men may need to be motivated in the area of being intentional in pursuing relationships, I doubt they need help in realizing whether a woman has a figure or good legs.
I was dressing very modestly when I attracted the attention of Ted. I was actually trying hard not to draw extra attention to those attributes you mentioned. Not because I think there's anything wrong with having a womanly figure, but I think there's a time and place to correctly show it off. And, I even remember after learning that he had an interest in me, dressing in my sweats and not wearing any makeup on a few occassions because I wanted to see if he liked me regardless. Turns out he did. I felt the same way as Esther. I didn't "want to be noticed for my body alone, when my personality, intelligence and spirit are of such greater value."
12. Alison D said the following at 1:34 PM on May 29
I agree partially with k. There is nothing wrong with looking like a grown woman. That is, it's okay when your clothes reveal that you do, indeed, have a bustline, a waist, and hips--just like God created mature women to look. I don't believe that grown women should be made to wear clothing that fit them in such a way that they look like prepubescent girls, or simply 10 pounds heavier than they actually are. I am one woman who has a traditional hourglass shape, and if I don't dress so that my clothes fit me snugly around my waist, I look a LOT heavier than I am. Girls, you know what I mean, right?
My husband, by the way, agrees with me. I asked him what he thinks about the modesty/immodesty issue, and he says that a lot of Christians blame women when they really should be focusing on men's responsibility. Then again, my husband is extremely mature and very devoted to saving his eyes for me. It is a wonderful gift to our marriage. :)
13. Mandi said the following at 2:19 PM on May 29
k.,
On a short break where I'd only add to the excellent points made in the blogs Ted linked to that marriage is a mystery (Eph. 5:31-32), and we should dress ourselves on that day to reflect what is going on: the presence of God's Spirit uniting a man and a woman in Him. Besides, God's House is one of prayer and holiness (too many Scriptural refs. to cite). How can dressing immodestly in such a context and place be appropriate?
And please don't say, well, that's what's available on the market. If you really want to, you can find beautiful and modest formal wear. When shopping for my wedding dress, I did. At first, all I found was modest dresses on Mormon sites, but none of them had exactly what I was looking for. My persistence paid off when I came upon a great line that makes modest wedding dresses (alongside lots of immodest ones). Her modest stuff is very much "together"-looking (I hate being told to just throw a shawl or blazer-like jacket on an otherwise beautiful gown that’s, well, lacking in a back, sleeves, and/or decent neckline) and gorgeous (I actually had a hard time picking between over a dozen).
In my culture, engagements are marked by public ceremonies (announcing the beginning of the betrothal, asking God’s blessing and wisdom in this period, etc., but it’s not a mystery/sacrament like marriage, so it can be broken), and so I had a formal dress for that too. Not content with "what was on the market", I ordered an extra yard of the fabric of the otherwise immodest bridesmaid-looking dress from the manufacturer through the bridal shop where I bought the dress, and had someone professional make sleeves and re-do the back for me...she did such a good job, people couldn't stop talking about my dress.
As for the beach, I tend to agree with you and others here that the bathing suit on this site is perhaps a little over-the-top. That said, there’s easily a lot to choose from on the market between skimpy bikinis and the bathing suit here.
Otherwise, k., I second Ashleigh in that I disagree with your logic.
Alright, break's over. ;( (Sigh...the break was too short, but perhaps this wasn't, sorry.)
14. NeedACatchyName said the following at 2:40 PM on May 29
At the risk of starting a heated discussion, I'm curious as to what everyone thinks of the "modest" swimsuit offered by this company (it's linked in k.'s first post). My initial reaction is that it seemed a bit extreme, but that was only an initial reaction and not an informed opinion. I do, however, notice that more and more churches (at least in my area, which is in a very conservative area of the U.S.) seem to be taking a harder look at the appopriateness of various swim attire. A few examples that come to mind:
1) Growing up, two-piece swimsuits were forbidden for girls at church camp and on other church trips. Girls were required to wear a modest (no cleavage showing, no extremely low-cut back) one-piece, and guys were required to wear swim trunks of an appropriate length.
2) Another area church (one of the largest in the area) had the same requirements, and went a step further by requiring girls to wear shorts over their swimsuit as well at any church-sanctioned swimming event.
3) One friend of mine has expressed that he does not feel that mixed gender swim/pool parties are appropriate at all as church events, because there is too much temptation for lustful thoughts when the opposite gender is in their swimwear.
4) And as a more extreme example, one area church (not a very big one, but I knew several people who attended it in high school) discouraged, but did not forbid, mixed-gender swimming. However, if both genders were swimming together, girls were required to wear a thick (preferably dark) t-shirt and shorts over their swimsuits, and guys were required to wear a thick (again, preferably dark) t-shirt with their swimsuits. These were not to be removed at any time when the opposite gender was present.
I do not necessarily endorse any of the above viewpoints. The above examples are presented only for discussion fodder. Actually, I don't really have much of an opinion at all on this issue, because I so very rarely go swimming (I don't really enjoy swimming much unless the water is really warm) and because I haven't had much of a chance to think about it, so I'm curious as to what the other posters here think.
15. nikki said the following at 3:24 PM on May 29
Well, it is nice to see modest clothes that are cute and everything. But, any of that stuff can be found in pretty much any retail store...you just have to sort through the immodest clothes too. Really, it's not hard to find modest stuff. So Christa's stuff is cute, but nothing new.
Anyways, if her swimsuit is supposed to exemplify what a modest swimsuit really is, then I don't probably want to go swimming around guys (except my future hubby of course) ever again. I am not being picky about my swimsuit but just saying that if that's what it takes to be modest, then I won't even bother going swimming because I'd rather NOT swim than swim in that, or in a baggy t-shirt (which you can't move in in the water anyways). What about a sports suit (what i always wear) with the high neckline and not-high-cut leg openings? I realize it is modest only relative to other suits out there. There is a HUGE double standard in swimwear. Christa's swimsuit is less modest than, say, really short shorts, which of course are never appropriate. So how does she explain that? For some reason swimsuits are treated differently. And there's the fact that different GUYS all have their own opinions about what swimsuits are modest or not. It's really the lowest common denominator of men's own subjective, personal standards we're catering to, which isn't much better than catering to our own. I am really not trying to sound like a snively feminist here, but I am just so frustrated and confused. My brother will tell me a suit (or dress or whatever) is just fine, then another guy will tell me it's immodest. I realize males are all generally wired the same way to be turned on by what they see, but don't the details just depend on how they were raised?? Every guy is going to have trouble with seeing different things...shoulders, legs, neck, whatever. (In other countries where women don't wear tops, the men just get used to it and I doubt they ever think twice about it.)
I just really don't understand how we are to deal with the swimsuit issue other than not going swimming (my tact so far).
16. nikki said the following at 3:38 PM on May 29
Sorry, I didn't mean to comment twice in a row. But I am wondering, and, shoot me if I'm wrong because I might be totally wrong, at the wisdom of going to extreme measures to protect guys and girls from seeing each other. I am not talking about modesty in general, but mandating t-shirts over swimsuits, floor length skirts or high collars, that type of thing.
And I just want to clarify that modesty is not just for the other gender; it's for your own dignity and honor. So dressing in a modest way is not just a practical way to keep others' roving eyes off your body (if the person is depraved enough, their eyes will go anywhere, regardless of how you are dressed); it's how you showcase your heart and mind and character.
But I am just wondering how those that have grown up under all this extreme modesty will fare once they are out of a small church community (even if it's in a larger city). Every shoulder, every collarbone is going to send them into fits of lust. Perhaps it's better to raise them to see a little skin? I might hang for this. :) But I have seen young men who won't go out of their homes because the ladies, who many of us might even consider modest by today's standards, might be exposing their calves, their knees or their shoulders. The young men are basically paralyzed, but they'd call it having high standards, or being not "of" the world. When these young men go to college, or even to work, they are assaulted with constant difficulty because they were raised to rarely see those parts of the body. I am certainly not advocating immodesty, only immodesty in relation to the borderline-Mennonite standard. So what do you ladies and gentlemen think?
17. Joy W. said the following at 3:51 PM on May 29
Regarding the bathing suit available on the site, I'm going to agree with K. that it was just a little too much. I'd much rather just throw a pair of shorts on over my suit than wear that!
On a related note, I do wish that churches would reconsider the "no two-piece" rule that many have in place, since many two-piece suits now available are actually more modest than most one-piece suits. I'm chaperoning a youth group trip this summer, and I had to search for quite a while before I could find a one-piece suit that would cover me as well as my modest tankini. Granted, my tankini does show about an inch around the tummy, but it has the advantage of not pulling--therefore being able to cover the more essential parts with no trouble!
18. DannieA said the following at 3:51 PM on May 29
I think K has great points and what I often find funny is that we confuse confidence of ourselves with immodesty.
Now there are some clothes out there that are just not necessary.
1. short skirts
2. extremely short shorts
3. showing way too much cleavage
4. using such low rise jeans that everything shows when you bend over.
However, not everthing that is spaghetti straps and off the shoulder is in immodest taste.
Now should we use our body to attract men? No, however, as men being very visual beings to start off with, it does not hurt to dress in a way that compliments us as well as does not advertise "cheap".
Then there is the age factor. There are some clothes that I wore in high school or that people wear in high school taht they don't need to wear when they are in their late 30s or 40s. It's just ridiculous...after having kids there are some things you should not wear.
One should always look age appropriate and dress without eye popping immodesty. Going both extremes is very unhealthy.
19. DannieA said the following at 3:55 PM on May 29
Oh yeah and as for the swimsuit....not horrible, but I'll stick to my one piece
20. Jethro said the following at 4:04 PM on May 29
The first thing I did when I saw the swimsuit was burst out laughing. Honestly, I thought it was hilarious. Where I live is very close to a major beach and I have never in my life seen a swimsuit like it.
Having said that, if someone actually does like it and it floats their boat, then more power to them. Modesty is all relative anyway, right?
21. Tim H. said the following at 4:23 PM on May 29
Hi friends... I appreciate this discussion. As a young 20-something guy looking for a future spouse, I can promise you that "sexy" is the last thing I'd be looking for! I think girls and ladies should always seek to err on the side of being 'too' modest (if that's possible). Indeed, modest attire is the most beautifully I think a lady could dress.
That being said, it's certainly possible for a modest outfit to be an attractive outfit. I'm no expert on fashion, but that is something I have seen.
On swimwear... I think this is a tough issue, but frankly, I think (for ladies) what is considered a 'conservative' one piece bathing suit is usually insufficient for modesty. And I definitely think a bikini (or any two piece which reveals the middle) is never, ever appropriate in mixed company. I don't know what the best answer is... But ladies, I want to let you know that as a young christian guy, I see how young ladies in my church and school dress--and those who dress immodestly are of no interest to me as potential future spouses.
22. k. said the following at 4:32 PM on May 29
Ted, I wish you wouldn't twist my words -- I did NOT say that strapless wedding gowns were immodest. While I won't be wearing one because I think that trend is tired, I know easily a dozen Christian women who were married in strapless gowns, and they looked both beautiful and modest. And my point was that women, as mature adults, are able to wear some styles and designs that aren't appropriate for children and younger teens.
Hmm...I'm not dismissing Harris & Mohler's points without consideration. As someone who was raised in an extremely conservative church and went to a Christian college with a strict dress code, I promise you I've spent plenty of time considering the topic. I'm just not *agreeing* with all their points, which is entirely different. Although the bible certainly advocates wearing modest clothes, there's nothing that says we need to be in lockstep with Mohler et al; modesty is heavily influenced by context, culture, and personal opinion. For example, I wore a strapless cotton dress to a Memorial Day cookout that I wouldn't wear to work, church, or Saudi Arabia for that matter -- even though it's a fun, casual look, and was completely appropriate at a barbecue.
I actually think that wanting to look attractive/fertile is hardcoded into our DNA, and isn't technically "secular." It's more of a biological, subconscious process. We're sexual beings, and we were designed that way. (For example, the recent study showing that women "dressed to impress" more when they were ovulating, http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/11/health/webmd/main2081501.shtml). In addition to being sexual beings, we're also spiritual beings, which means that we also have a responsibility to dress in a modest fashion and not deliberately try to make men walk into lampposts. However, my problem with the "don't lead your brother into sin with your clothing" camp is that some of our brothers have remarkably active thought lives, and we can hardly all start walking around in chadors on that account. I think our sticking point here is what exactly "modest" is. And it's okay to differ there, honestly.
Btw, I totally agree that our character and integrity is what makes a relationship "stick," not our looks.
23. Sara said the following at 4:45 PM on May 29
I'd almost go as far as to say that wearing a swimsuit that "modest" could be kind of immodest--"purer than thou", maybe making other girls feel needlessly guilty about their less-1920s but still acceptable suits.
It's too bad so many Christian women, in concentrating on being modest, have set aside appreciation of gorgeous fabrics, vibrant colours, and creative designs that celebrate life and womanhood.
A lot of the other clothes on that website are pretty... but check out this website: no long denim jumpers in sight - doesn't it feel like we're missing something? :) http://www.worldpictures.co.uk/search/results.php?value=traditional+costume
24. Beth L. said the following at 5:00 PM on May 29
Let me say first off, that I am all for modesty and propriety (not just in how we dress but in our actions & our interactions as well).
I just wonder sometimes if there is too much attention on the externals of modesty, saying for example, that two piece suits are NEVER ok, and that if you are modest you would only ever wear a one piece suit. I am rather leery of such legalistic standards, because they tend to mask heart issues. It is easy to comply with imposed standards (e.g. wearing shorts or a teeshirt over a swimsuit because you are told too) in order to avoid “punishment” (real or perceived). But if compliance with a standard is all you are after, then you will never deal with heart issues of honoring others, not cause one another to stumble, seductive motives, or our bodies being the temple of the Holy Spirit.
A close friend of mine tells this story from when he was a teenager and at summer camp. He said that first day everyone was at the pool and all the girls were in really skimpy suits. That night the pastor taught on modesty, but he did not lay down laws about what to wear how much skin not to show, but he went after the heart issues. What he did was start out meeting drawing curved lines on the overhead. All the guys in the room started to snicker, after a few minutes, the pastor asked the girls why the guys were laughing…it was cause the lines reminded them of the female body. Then he said that if a few random lines on the screen got the reaction that it did in the guys, imagine what seeing the girls’ bodies in their swimsuits did. My friend said the next day everyone had teeshirts over their suits. I mean that pastor could have just told everyone what to wear, but rather taught them a truth, and let the Holy Spirit bring conviction and change.
It seems to me that even though it is harder to deal with heart issues they way that pastor did, the change that happened would have been deeper and stayed with the kids long after the camp.
25. Leah said the following at 8:02 PM on May 29
Ted, while I disagree with a few things K said, what she said about wedding dresses was completely true. A strapless dress is NOT immodest, I mean really, it's only immodest if you wear it ridiculously low. A strapless dress is completely acceptable, but I would be wary about letting a 7 year old wear it, NOT because it is a 'sexy' dress, but simply because kids should not be wearing grown-up clothes. It's the same thing as make-up being acceptable, but would you let your 8 year old daughter out of the house with lipstick, blush, eye-shadow and mascara on? (Unless she was in a stage performance :P).
I disagree with K's logic that we should make ourselves look sexy to attract a mate, but there is nothing wrong with making yourself look attractive for people of the opposite sex. I know, FOR A FACT (no matter how much guys might try to say it doesn't matter) that they appreciate a girl who puts effort into her appearance and into looking attractive.
And as for the things NeedACatchyName said... well that's just ridiculous. Boardshorts (shorts for swimming) are pretty much the norm in Australia for both guys and girls, and if you don't wear one then (for girls anyway) you are looked upon as... well, not very favourably. I thnk that's changing though, thanks to America's influence :P (Still, none of my friends- Christian or non-Christian- would be caught dead without boardies on). But the OTHER things... no mixed-gender swimming? Extreme covering up with mixed-gender swimming? Lighten up. If someone is so easily tempted and tripped up by that type of stuff, well they can choose not to go. Shouldn't stop other people having a good time.
The main church camp I go on is a camp where we do a lot of outdoors stuff, in particular, a lot of water sports. I went as a camper 4 times and now go as a leader. Most people wear a swim-shirt, because any good watersportsman knows you're an idiot to spend that much time in the sun and not cover-up (especially in north-australian sun). So while it largely isn't for modesty's sake (although i know it is in some cases), the fact remains that for a large part of our water-related activities we're relatively covered up. Also, when we're swimming later in the afternoon (so not as many swimshirts are worn), most girls wear two piece swimmers, but most are tank-tops (either V-neck or round-neck), or tube-tops; i've rarely seen triangle bikinis.
As for what Ashleigh said about purposely making herself less attractive to test Ted's attraction, I wouldn't condemn that I think it's great, but I don't like the connotation that those of us who make an effort to look attractive are simply selling our bodies. My boyfriend says he likes a certain skirt, so I'll wear that skirt more often. He says he likes make-up, so I might wear a bit of make-up to places that I wouldn't usually. But at the same time, I know this is not what makes me attractive to him, because there have been times I've just woken up and I know my hair is gross and I have bags under my eyes and he still says I'm beautiful :P (And no, we're not sleeping together or anything, I'm thinking of times when our families have gone on holidays together and he's come to visit our caravan ten minutes after I've woken up, or if I've fallen asleep on his couch while he's been working on an assignment :P).
26. DanL said the following at 9:42 PM on May 29
I think the swimsuit issue largely comes down do what you are going to be doing in the swimsuit. If you are actually going to be swimming, then I wouldn’t be worried about it too much, since once you are in the water that alone covers much. On the other hand, if you are going to be playing Frisbee, or volleyball on the beach, then it would be the best to wear something over your suit. I will also agree with others here that there definitely are conservative two piece swimsuits. One of my best friends and her sister have matching two piece suits from a company (I don’t know which) like this one that strives to provide modest attire.
27. Kelley said the following at 9:44 PM on May 29
I personally wear a tankini (that covers my stomach) and a pair of swim shorts or a swim skirt. For me, I consider this modest. I started wearing shorts over my bathing suit many years ago because I just didn't feel very comfortable without them. I feel plenty cute and modest in what I wear. If I was in company that required a shirt over the bathing suit, I would be happy to respect that.
While I personally don't prefer the style of swimsuit displayed on the above listed website, I do think it's a somewhat creative alternative compared to: http://www.wholesomewear.com/page-4.html
28. Ashleigh said the following at 9:52 PM on May 29
Leah, I want to clarify. There was no underlying connotation that "that those of us who make an effort to look attractive are simply selling our bodies" to the story I shared. Goodness! You read way too much into that.
As a woman, I certainly want to look nice and attractive and believe that attempting to look our best is an important aspect of relationship. I certainly wasn't condeming women for doing so. And as I said, I only dressed in my sweats a few times. The rest of the time, I tried to look nice.
Hey, and I still try to look nice for Ted, even though I do end up in my "comfy" clothes more than my nice ones since I'm chasing after kids all day. :-) My point was that I don't believe we have to purposely draw attention to our sexuality and "fertility," as K. seemed to say, in order to attract a mate.
29. KJ said the following at 5:43 AM on May 30
Being careful not to take it to an unhealthy extreme, I agree with Nikki about that perhaps dressing ourselves and our families ridiculously modestly will harm sons in the long run. I thought it was interesting that the the opinions of guys on the Rebelution's Modesty Survey were SO conservative, until I realized that the vast majority of the guys who participated were homeschooled, and many (not all!) homeschoolers are way more conservative than the rest of the world. If a kid grows up hearing his mother talk about how important it is to be modest and seeing her wear ugly, shapeless denim jumpers with running shoes every day, of course he's going to flip out when he sees a girl wearing a skirt with a knee-high slit or a cap-sleeve T-shirt or high-heeled boots.
And yeah...a lot of the clothes on the site were cute, but the swimsuit was...too much. Wearing my swimsuit (a high-neck racer with shorts over it) to the beach would call a whole lot less attention to myself than that suit. And modesty is about not calling unnecessary attention to oneself, is it not?
30. k. said the following at 7:12 AM on May 30
One final qualification -- I don't advocate "purposely" drawing attention to our sexuality, in the sense of deliberately scheming and plotting over how to snare someone with it. However, our sexuality is innate and part of who we are. We're programmed (by God) to look for mates who are genetically different from us (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9A04E6DB143AF93AA35755C0A96E958260). If you're a man, you typically look for a woman with a waist-hip ratio that indicates fertility (Google Devendra Singh, University of Texas). Women subconsciously gauge men based on both their testosterone levels, and their interest in children (http://www-news.uchicago.edu/citations/06/060509.attraction-bbc.html). There's a lot of things that we look for in a mate without even knowing it.
Is this bad? No. Does it mean that we're hopeless slaves to biology? Again, no. But it does mean that the topics of modesty and sexuality are more complex than they look at first glance. God created us as both sexual and spiritual beings; our challenge is to balance those two responsibly and appropriately.
31. Hayley said the following at 7:49 AM on May 30
I wear the same as Kelley had said when I go swimming or to the beach. I feel that's modest and fashionable.
And, to those who think Christa's swimsuit is ugly (I'll admit it isn't the cutest), I was at the beach and most of the women were in tiny bikinis and it gives me a whole new understanding of the phrase "butt ugly"! The beach would be a much prettier place if everyone would just cover up more!
32. Tim H. said the following at 9:03 AM on May 30
Hi friends,
I'm not convinced by the argument several have made that too much modesty will be damaging to men in the long run since, upon entering the "world", we'll encounter less-than-modest females. We don't hold that standard for anything else. (For example, do we mix the truth we tell our children with lies because, "when you enter the world, not everyone will be honest with you!"?) No, our boys and young men should be taught to appreciate what is true and noble, and, where modesty is concerned, much of that teaching will come through the example set through mothers, sisters, and other women in the church.
Indeed, Paul commands women to adorn themselves with modesty (1 Timothy 2:9, 1 Peter 3:3) that their true beauty will be in their "hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit".
And KJ, I believe modesty may certainly draw "unnecessary" attention to oneself. The young ladies at my college and church who dress modestly draw attention to themselves from me, but not because of the sexual display of their body, but for the covering up of the body which says they are saving their bodies for their future husbands.
If girls and young ladies are mocked and reviled for their modest dress? BLESSED ARE YOU (1 Peter 3:9). Rejoice that you are choosing "rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin" (Hebrews 11:24).
33. Ashleigh said the following at 9:26 AM on May 30
I think a clear distinction that needs to be made here is between the words "sexy" and "attractive." If as women we are describing the clothes we are wearing in public as "sexy," then perhaps we have a modesty issue to address, even if it's just in the attitude behind what we are wearing. If we are describing our clothes as "attractive" and "figure flattering," then that's a different issue. I think we can wear clothes that are modest, which are also attractive and figure flattering. Does that make sense?
34. Mandi said the following at 9:33 AM on May 30
We all have a responsibility to "guard [our] hearts and minds through Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:7), though since men are created more visually stimulated, this is especially important for them in this area. That said, as women, we should be dealing with men as our sons/brothers (1 Tim. 5:2). And didn't our Lord Himself teach us that "whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart"(Matt. 5:28)?!?
None of this means dressing in a chador; there's a HUGE spectrum between a chador and skimpy, revealing clothing. Frankly, neither extreme brings glory to God or honors the bodies that He gave us, which are temples of His Spirit, after all.
35. Kellie said the following at 10:02 AM on May 30
Modesty seems pretty subjective doesn't it? I consider myself to be modest in dress...however, I had a wedding gown with small straps (had them added because I didn't want a strapless gown), so apparently some would consider that immodest. There doesn't seem to be an easy answer...
36. DannieA said the following at 10:50 AM on May 30
Modesty comes from the heart. Not your clothes.
Men need to guard their hearts as well...
It's a shame that the media put so much attention to the case in which the AK preacher's wife shot the preacher/husband, but in that came out that the husband giving full external propriety and a family of modest values degraded his wife in the bedroom.
Just because one is "modest" externally is no indication towards the heart of the matter.
Let's pray that our hearts are modest and in that we will make good choices in our clothes whatever bell curve it seems to be at.
37. Leah said the following at 11:12 AM on May 30
Sorry Ashleigh, saying you were giving the connotation we're just selling our bodies was too strong... I guess a better way of putting it would have been "As for what Ashleigh said about purposely making herself less attractive to test Ted's attraction, I wouldn't condemn that I think it's great, but I don't like the connotation that those of us who make an effort to look attractive are simply using our bodies to draw attention/make us attractive."
I also hear both what K and Tim H are saying (opposite sides of the argument), and while I agree with Tim that we shouldn't expose ourself to sin simply because we're going to encounter more later, I see K's side of things too. The Amish see anything shorter than an ankle length skirt as potentially sexually provocative, the same for wearing your hair out. However, for those of us who have been raised around people who commonly wear their hair out, or who wear knee-length skirts, this is not a problem. I doubt many men would struggle with their thoughts upon seeing a woman wearing a knee length skirt with her hair out- however, coudl be a different story for Amish men. I could be wrong here, but I do think, depending on the way we are raised, it is possible for men to develop SOME immunity to these things.
NB: I realise this only goes to a certain point, and probably not very far. I am not advocating wearing skimpy clothes just to 'immunise' guys. It doesn't work that way. I'm just saying that I do see the idea that completely covering up all the time might leave guys unprepared and even weakened.
38. Mandi said the following at 11:43 AM on May 30
DannieA, I think you make a very good point about the importance of the inside too...the Scriptures actually show that this is a both/and thing, not an either/or.
Our Lord condemned the Pharisees for only caring about the outside and leaving their insides full of ugliness (Matt. 23:25-28 and Luke 11:39-40), and cursed the fig tree for appearing to be substantial, but in fact bearing no fruit (Matt. 21: 7-22, Mark 11: 12-14, Mark 11:20-24).
BUT He also told us that our good works are essential, and indeed, affect the glorification of God by others (Matt. 5:13-16).
The Apostle Paul also reminds us that God's Name can be blasphemed because of what we do ( Rom. 2:24).
39. Ashleigh said the following at 12:06 PM on May 30
Leah, thanks for your response. Honestly, for what it's worth, I wasn't even thinking the softened version. I apologize that it came across in that manner. Again, I believe it's a good thing to want to look attractive, my concern is when it veers into wanting to look "sexy."
At the risk of sharing TMI, last night I was talking to Ted about the times I did dress down in order to see his reactions. Part of my doing so was in response to the one dating relationship I had prior to him. The guy I was seeing cared TOO much about looks, and how I looked on a given day would influence how he acted toward me. I learned through that relationship that I wanted to know how a potential husband would treat me, even in the beginning of a relationship, regardless of my appearance.
Appearances change over the years. In the almost five years I've been married, I managed to gain 30 pounds after having two babies in two years (which I've since lost). But even in those times when I was heavier than when Ted married me, he didn't treat me any different because of the weight. That's one reason I believe that while we should take the time to dress attractively, a woman's focus shouldn't be on trying to show her sexuality and fertility (which I think is different than trying to look attractive) through her clothing. It concerns me that if the focus is there, she may end up attracting a guy who won't be as understanding when it takes his wife a couple years to shed an extra 30 pounds.
40. NeedACatchyName said the following at 12:15 PM on May 30
I wanted to add a few more thoughts to my previous post, where I described several sets of rules that local churches had for swim attire when growing up. None of the scenarios that I described really worked well. The rules were just handed down as rules with no explanation given as to why modesty was important. As a result, people only followed the rules so that they wouldn't be asked to change clothes, not because they really wanted to follow them. Futhermore, nobody ever followed the rule when it wasn't a church event, especially if their parents weren't around. We always used to joke that the people most covered up at church events are the ones who were going to be wearing the skimpiest swimsuits around their secular friends.
However, now that I'm out of school and an adult, I notice that most of my female friends wear what I would consider modest swim attire, even though there is no rule. Just as an example, I've especially noticed that most Christian girls (at least in my area) have taken to wearing shorts over their swimsuits, to the point where not wearing shorts over their swimsuit is the exception rather than the norm. But they do this voluntarily, because they understand the importance of modesty, both from a understanding of the effect immodesty has on guys and out of greater respect for their own bodies. As one of my females friends once said, she doesn't wear shorts over her swimsuit because she has to, but rather because she understands the importance of modesty, and furthermore added that she would quite frankly be embarrassed to wear a swimsuit without shorts over it around guys (once again, this is just an example; I'm not saying that it's wrong not to wear shorts over your swimsuit).
So I guess all this is to say that I think that churches would be a lot better served in explaining the importance of modesty rather than laying down specific bullet-point sets of rules. Unfortunately, that may be overly wishful thinking, since in today's Powerpoint culture, people like things condensed into talking points too much.
41. BDB said the following at 12:39 PM on May 30
Ashleigh wrote:
>>And, I even remember after learning that he had an interest in me, dressing in my sweats and not wearing any makeup on a few occassions because I wanted to see if he liked me regardless. <<
Hmmm...if you go to a co-ed university (at least mine), everyone dresses like that after the first two weeks. We could actually pick out the women in class who lived off campus because they still wore makeup, did something with their hair besides a pony tail, etc. So if you meet someone in college...they're probably going to see you without eye makeup. I guess depending on where you went to school.
This discussion is giving me a headache, because I have to enforce the dress code from time to time. What I find amazing is that my staff dresses more modestly than women do at church...
42. Mike Theemling said the following at 1:02 PM on May 30
Interesting discussion.
I went to the website and found the clothing to be fairly well designed (meaning that it met its purpose of both being modest yet not displaying too much).
Regarding swimsuits, they are designed to display a lot simply because if you are actually swimming it reduces the drag from the water. This is why professional male swimmers often wear thong-like suits and even shave their legs.
But of course the problem is many women at the beach don't do a lot of swimming, at least the type which would require such suits. That begs the question then, "Is it wrong for a woman to wear such suits?"
I believe there are 2 main things here to consider. First, is culture. As Lewis wrote, a woman could be wearing much or little and still be considered "decent" by a society's standards. At the beach at least, there seems to be little from a society standpoint that says wearing a 1-piece (even 2-piece) swimsuit is indecent. Remember that in past generations, even an ankle showing on a lady was considered too revealing.
Second, we consider the "stumble" factor in Christianity. This is a difficult one since many people's tastes of what is sexy can vary. One person might consider showing too much leg lust-inciting while another might not be bothered by that but by too much back or chest. There are two ways to deal with this. One is to adopt a burqa-esque solution which would show nothing of the body, not even the face/hair but I doubt most would advocate that. Another (and the preferred in my opinion) is to be aware of your audience and dress "smartly". By that I mean that women should dress in accordance to the decency of their own surroundings whether it be church, work, home, etc. Trying to shut down lust altogether is foolhearty at best as you'd have to give up shaving your legs, wearing makeup, styling your hair, etc. just in an effort to prevent any temptation. This simply goes back to the burqa solution.
That all being said, realize that God for whatever reason made women to be beautiful (sexy) to men and there should be no shame in acknowledging that. No one realistically Christian or not, would recommend you marry someone who repulses you physically. Research verifies humans are visual beings and that looks do matter. And although there should not be too much emphasis on it, there is nothing Biblically that states that "looking good" is sinful.
So in all this talk about modesty, understand I tend to agree that modesty comes more from the heart first. Someone can be in a burqa and act like a tramp. Modesty includes appearance for sure, but it also includes one's actions and attitude as well.
43. J-Twinkle said the following at 1:52 PM on May 30
>>And, I even remember after learning that he had an interest in me, dressing in my sweats and not wearing any makeup on a few occassions because I wanted to see if he liked me regardless. <<
Ok, is it me, or do I find some parts of this discussion absolutely mind boggling? Wearing sweats to see if he cared more if I was dressed up than dressed down? Wow, where's the questioning about WHY we dress modesty? I refuse to dress a certain way to attract a man's attention or to see if he only cares about my apperance? I'm going to ask him and cut through the crap. I personally would have rebuffed his interest at that point. if I have that question about his attraction from the very beginning, I wouldn't bother. I'm sorry, but I am at point in my life where I am wearing what I want to wear as a reflection of respect for the body God has given me, celebration and reflection of the personal style that I have and for the purpose of facilitating said activity in that clothing(you don't wear a bikini to the office to type, now do you?) Once again I have to ask:
Where's the questioning of the guys who would prefer to blame the immodest attire of women for their raging hormones and lust, despite Christian women's best efforts to dress modestly at all times? Where's the argument of your attire being a reflection of reverence and respect of the body that God gave you instead of dressing to please man, whose opinions and desires fluctuate constantly? I am amazed that once again men are being allowed to sidestep taking responsibility for their own lustful appetites and desires by once again complaining about immodesty in our society in women? What about immodesty in men? It does happen. Men wearing muscle shirts and tank tops when they could compete for the title of Mr. Universe is immodest. Wearing sheer shirts that see through when you're extremely muscular is immodest.
What about helping your sisters not to stumble either? I see very few posts that talk about that.
I know that as it stands, I'm not getting married. I've stopped hoping for a spouse and a family a long time ago, so changing my appearance to make myself more attractive to the opposite sex doesn't fly anymore. My major concerns are to dress appropriate and for the occasion in question. I really have stopped caring about what guys think about my style or whether or not it makes me attractive to them, because Christian men my age and older don't want me that way NO GUYS ASK ME OUT.PERIOD. I'm a "sister/female pal for life", just not "spouse material" as they call it. So I'm doing to devote the rest of my life doing things that I wouldn't be able to do if I was married and had children.
44. xeres said the following at 2:48 PM on May 30
While I agree that women need to work on being modest, the guys need to control their minds much better please and have some spiritual discipline. Men are rational beings, not just hormone driven primeapes.
J-winkle, you are right when you said we need to dress to honor our Lord. however, deciding to live the life of celebacy because of major disappointments in the love department and being hurt from the opposite sex are not a legitimate or godly reasons at all.
45. BDB said the following at 3:25 PM on May 30
You know, I've found that one way to get my staff to stay within the bounds of the dress code is to purchase company shirts. These are typically polos and button-downs. (And they've corrected me so that they order the women's cut now, whatever that means...comes in "sea foam" instead of "hunter green" I guess.)
Anyway, today the ultimate result of that policy happened. With corporate visitors coming, one of my managers and I showed up wearing the same button-down shirt, the same color slacks...OK, she was in black heels. But otherwise, we were twins! I'm sure that's the look she was going for.
Ashleigh's comment about dressing down to test interest is an interesting one. I'd never thought about that before. I'd noticed (vaguely) that a couple of women seemed to dress more conservatively as they spent more time with me. But people tend to drink and curse less around me, too. It certainly meant that they got less attention from the other men around when they were with me. Now I'm going to wonder if they do that on purpose.
If I think about clothes too much my head is going to explode...
46. Alison D. said the following at 4:24 PM on May 30
I don't think I ever intentionally dressed down while courting my husband, but I *did* allow him to see me when I was not at my best. For example, one time my workout was running a little long, so I that I either had to cut it short to shower and change before seeing him, or finish up and see him as I was. I chose the latter, even though it was hard at the time (we were just beginning to date). I'm glad that I did, because he saw me flushed, dripping with sweat, and makeup-less and still kept coming back to see me!
47. Tim H. said the following at 4:38 PM on May 30
J-Twinkle, I'd like to try to reply to some of your remarks.
Where's the questioning of the guys who would prefer to blame the immodest attire of women for their raging hormones and lust, despite Christian women's best efforts to dress modestly at all times?
This is a valid question, but, from my own personal experience, I definitely haven't observed that Christian women (again, the young ladies at my Christian college and church) do make their best effort at all times. In fact, I'd say very few do. Certainly lust has been challenged, though perhaps not enough. But the Bible teaches that both the man (Matthew 5:28) and woman (1 Peter 3:3) are responsible for themselves on this issue. Women are called by God to dress modestly. Men are called by God to not look lustfully at a woman. So, while I do hold high expectations for women, I know I certainly have my own heart and actions to be working on. This is a constant struggle for me and almost all men, and women, as sisters in Christ, can help with that fight by upholding themselves in outward and inward modesty.
Where's the argument of your attire being a reflection of reverence and respect of the body that God gave you instead of dressing to please man, whose opinions and desires fluctuate constantly?
Well, it's right in 1 Peter 3:4. What I am arguing is that dressing in such a way to please God will please men whose hearts are seeking after God and who are searching for a Godly women.
What about immodesty in men? It does happen. Men wearing muscle shirts and tank tops when they could compete for the title of Mr. Universe is immodest. Wearing sheer shirts that see through when you're extremely muscular is immodest.
What about helping your sisters not to stumble either? I see very few posts that talk about that.
Again, a valid question. As far as I know, this is not ever a problem with how I dress, though I know there are many guys who have lots of room to improve.
I've stopped hoping for a spouse and a family a long time ago, so changing my appearance to make myself more attractive to the opposite sex doesn't fly anymore... I'm a "sister/female pal for life", just not "spouse material" as they call it.
I'm sorry you're struggling so much with this. First of all, I'd really encourage you to go here and listen to John Harris's sermon "Is He Enough?". Also, I'd suggest to you that outware appearance is far from the most important thing. Instead of being concerned about that, work on becoming the godly woman that you think would be fitting for the godly husband you would desire. How? Through reading scripture, through prayer, through active participation in the church, through mentoring from a godly woman in your church, and the list goes on (there's a great list called boundless.org that I'd suggest!). God works all things out for the good of those who love Him. He provides for all your needs.
48. Mandi said the following at 5:41 PM on May 30
J-Twinkle,
I second TimH's comments, and would just add that the second part of your post has touched my heart very much.
In bleaker times, I think I could have written the same things, and I certainly know of *many* other happily engaged or married people who could have too. That's not to say I know what God has in store for you, because I don't. But, if I may, it seemed to me as I read and re-read your post that perhaps you have lost hope that He has a plan at all, or that He's capable of defying your logic or human expectations about your life and circumstances. I offer as encouragement a reminder that God can split seas, break the cedars of Lebanon (Ps. 29:5), and before Whom mountains melt like wax (Ps. 97:5, Micah 1:4), Who defeated death by His own power. The English word "almighty" hardly does justice to the original Greek word used in the Scriptures to describe God: Pantocrator. "He who holds sway over all things, the ruler of all" sort of come close to what that word means in its original language, I'm told by people who understand and study Greek.
Truly, nothing is impossible for God. I do not know your circumstances, and I'm not asking, nor is this an invitation to you to share them. It's only an invitation to have mustard seed-sized hope in the One Who loves you, protects you, and wants you to live and finish your race here on earth with Him (and races, by definition, aren't cakewalks, and as the Apostle Paul points out, must be finished -- not just started -- with God for us to win the prize), so that you can be together forever.
49. J-Twinkle said the following at 8:56 PM on May 30
Ok, here's my response to:
Tim H: When I'm referring that dressing to appease the whims of the opposite sex doesn't fly anymore, I'm talking about my motives changing and constantly checking them against a desire for everything I do to be a reflection of Christ. When I get up in the morning, I DO NOT think about who I'm going to run into or whether or not a guy is going to be attracted to me. Besides, if what you're saying about dressing modestly to please God attracts men who want to please God, WHERE ARE THEY? I've significantly changed my style of dressing to be more modest in the past two years, and still NOTHING. So please spare me the "law of attraction" rule when it comes to dressing modestly. I've seen it in my own experience that it doesn't work.
What do we have to do to get Christian to exercise self-control? Cover every inch of exposed skin so that you can stop drooling? Believe it or not, my friends and I are CONSTANTLY keeping each other accountable about this issue. It doesn't help that many times Christian guys will SAY they want a modest, godly woman but they will either: a)be completely chicken and take initiative b.)chase, engage,and flirt with the exact opposite of what they SAY they want.
I have a question for Tim H: are the kind of person that you want your future spouse to be? Are you modest in thought, heart, and deed? Are you exhibiting the love of God? Do you possess the qualities necessary to be the husband and father God intended you to be?
and as far as the outward appearance being the most important thing--I find that hard to believe considering that men (Christian and unbelieving alike) respond the same way to an attractive woman and will continue to choose looks over character(the same rule applies for women, so I'm not saying we're exempt at all).
I am VERY INVOLVED IN CHURCH. As far as the Boundless list goes, one must be very selective about whom you choose to mentor you. I am tired of people supplying such a band aid answer for the last portion of my post. If it was that simple, obviously I wouldn't be single. Life does not work in 1-2-3 processes all the time.
Mandi: I said that I have lost hope. I say this because if I don't have hope, I obviously don't have faith, not to mention the fact that it's easy to tell someone to have faith, but HOW DO YOU HAVE FAITH? HOW DO YOU EXERCISE IT when no matter what you do, NO ONE is interested? What do you do when everyone that is close to you is in a coursthip or getting married?
Once again I will say:
Just because SOME WOMEN/SOME MEN HAVE DRESSED IMMODESTLY, does NOT absolve us of our responsibility to be dressed appropriately. When are we going to stop blaming others for our own desires, admit their existence and deal with them?
50. k. said the following at 10:05 PM on May 30
J-Twinkle...I was going to bow out of this discussion (I've got work I should be doing), but changed my mind when I saw your post.
Instead of continuing the whole modesty discussion...the thing that concerns me about your post is that you sound so totally hopeless, and perhaps even depressed.
Obviously, you've experienced deep hurt, and you're right...there is no quick fix for these hurts, and no spiritual band-aid we can slap on. Sometimes life is just plain hard, and we go through seasons that are so painful that they seem impossible to bear. I've been there, and I'm sure many other posters have, too.
I'm going to try not to offer platitudes, but I will say this: God wants us bring all our hurts and griefs to Him. The same Jesus who wept with Mary and Martha when Lazarus died, and who was so patient with Thomas's unbelief, and who healed people even when He was exhausted...He wants you to bring your hurt and bitterness and sadness to Him. Is there a counselor or mentor you could talk to about this? Sometimes, when you're in pain, that helps.
I'm very sorry if what I've said seems trite, or like putting a band-aid on an arterial bleed. Please know that I've gone through a desert season in my life as well. Suffering is horrible, and I'm sorry that's where you are. I'm praying for you.
51. Tim H. said the following at 10:09 PM on May 30
Hello again friends. J-Twinkle:
Besides, if what you're saying about dressing modestly to please God attracts men who want to please God, WHERE ARE THEY?
They exist; I promise you that. Though I'm not married or engaged myself, from what others have told me, it's worth the wait to find that godly man. Tragically, it seems that "WHERE ARE THEY?" seems to be a common theme among Boundless readers of both sexes. God provides.
It doesn't help that many times Christian guys will SAY they want a modest, godly woman but they will either: a)be completely chicken and take initiative b.)chase, engage,and flirt with the exact opposite of what they SAY they want.
I've noticed that too. I think you make a good point, and I hope the other guys here take note of it.
I have a question for Tim H: are the kind of person that you want your future spouse to be? Are you modest in thought, heart, and deed? Are you exhibiting the love of God? Do you possess the qualities necessary to be the husband and father God intended you to be?
No. No. No. No. Am I working on becoming that man by the grace of God through His Holy Spirit santifying my life? You bettcha. Do I ever expect to be a perfect husband? Nope. What I am trying to do is spend my time as a young single man, not whining about being single, but becoming a more godly man. I don't say this as a boast but as an admonition.
I am tired of people supplying such a band aid answer for the last portion of my post. If it was that simple, obviously I wouldn't be single. Life does not work in 1-2-3 processes all the time.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but God's timing is not our timing! Look at Abraham and Sarah (Genesis 21). They were thinking that God is a nutcase! There was no way they were going to give birth at such an old age. I know that you, as a woman, are in the tough position of having to wait for the man to initiate. And I know that fellows today are horrible initiators. But God provides. You are His child, and He has good in store for you (Matthew 7:11). Often we don't understand His plan, but it will prevail, and it is good. Proverbs 19:21 says, "Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand." How true and how glorious that is.
52. BDB said the following at 1:00 AM on May 31
J-twinkle wrote:
>>Besides, if what you're saying about dressing modestly to please God attracts men who want to please God, WHERE ARE THEY? <<
You may find this older thread interesting - quite a few people posted frustrations similar to yours. It was a very interesting discussion.
http://www.boundlessline.org/2007/03/wheres_the_moti.html#comments
53. Leah said the following at 6:17 AM on May 31
BDB- a woman's cut button-down means the shirt is shaped to fit with the curve of the waist and hips, and isn't just straight like men's shirts ;)
54. Jethro said the following at 6:23 AM on May 31
Question: how far do we take the logic of 'dress modestly so you don't invite temptation and cause a brother to sin'?
Example: If your Christian brother Bill is very fat, do you avoid eating french fries and drinking coke when he's around? After all food is a desire of the flesh...
Or: Brother Terrance is prone to lose his temper and get angry - do you not invite him to come around and watch the football game with you, in case his team loses and he get's angry?
Where does it all stop? And why does it stop there and not some other arbitrary point?
How about this radical idea: guys are responsible for their own actions. No woman causes a man to sin by showing a bit of back or cleavage. If a guy finds a girl's strapless wedding dress an irresistible turn on, the responsibility lies with him to leave the room - not on her to dress is a burlap sack lest someone be tempted.
55. Leah said the following at 6:44 AM on May 31
Random addition to the discussion about swimwear: what about women who do watersports? Women, when doing high-speed water sports (like waterskiing) *must* wear wetsuits for safety's sake, and it's a good idea for men too. (do I need to explain it? Let's just say, if you come off skis and hit the water at 60km/hr, water can go all sorts of places it SHOULDN'T be.)
But these are positively skin-tight (as is necessary for the protection factor) and while usually being thigh-length with a high neck and sleeves I daresay some people would take issue with the figure they produce... ;P
Oh and in response to the girltalk post on modesty on your wedding day...
1. Find a wedding dress with a neckline that completely conceals any cleavage. Yeah...ish. *Completely* conceals *any*? That's very difficult for some girls. And i'm not defending myself- I had generally planned on having a dress that was straight-across the top above the cleavage.
2. Avoid dresses without sufficient covering in the back. What's "sufficient covering"? My grade 12 formal dress had an open back half way down my back (but was a lace-up) and nobody, not even my father expressed any concern with it.
3. Strapless gowns or dresses with only spaghetti straps are revealing and thus do not serve the men in attendance at your wedding. Oh, loosen up. Revealing what? Your shoulders? I know NO guys who have EVER expressed ANY concern with strapless or spaghetti strap dresses. (Only when they have low necks or are worn too low). The wife of our staff-worker at uni owns strapless dresses and she's one of the most modest women I know (and no, don't be ridiculous and take that to mean that all the women I know are IMmodest.)
4. A modest gown should not be excessively tight and draw unnecessary attention to your figure. I agree with the "excessively tight" bit, but what does "draw unnecessary attention to your figure" mean? If it's saying "don't wear a dress that accentuates your figure" I'd say "get lost" but if it means "don't wear a dress that would mean people can't notice anything BUT your figure" I'd say "ok well that's reasonable."
56. v@v said the following at 10:21 AM on May 31
Modesty is always such a fun topic. For the most part, and for most of my life, I have been of the more modest persuasion. I firmly believe in covering up, and still looking beautifully attractive. I can't tell you how many camisoles/undershirts I own in every color and texture possible to layer underneath v-neck shirts or anything too low -- I'm not a fan of cleavage and I am highly uncomfortable if I even suspect there is any being shown. On several occasions even great guy friends and brothers in the Lord have told me, "Hey, it's OK for you to remove your hand from your chest when you lean over -- you're practically wearing a turtleneck" -- just a habit, I guess. :-)
I am highly upsetted (is that even a word), by girls who don't flinch at showing so much cleavage. If it's a distraction to girls who are upset by it, it would be a severe distraction to guys. But, I have a few very full-figured friends, who for as much as they attempt to cover up, have parts that aren't always successfully covered, even by the most modest shirt. My heart goes out to them as they try to find clothes that make them look beautiful and attractive, all the while modest. I honor them for their attempts.
Now, the whole idea of "sexyness" is highly subjective. So many guys I know appreciate a woman's extra efforts at beauty, but often find that her most attractive/sexy, whatever you choose to say, when she is relaxed in glasses and a ponytail. It depends on the guy I guess.
Bathing suits are hard. I'm a fan of shorts myself -- even though, I don't know about that bathing suit on the site. It's a bit ... much. And, I don't know ... black on the beach? hmmm. A bit warm, don't you think?
Finally, ladies, just strive as much as possible to honor God and brothers in your attire choices (we all make mistakes, but lets learn). But guys, really, sometimes we may not always be able to detect/see/foresee what you deem to be immodest even in our best attempts to do so out of love (brotherly or otherwise) for you. In those cases, don't blame us, please. Just bounce those eyes. As responsible as women are before God for how we present ourselves, is as responsible as you are for where you allow your eyes to go and for how long. :-)
57. mp said the following at 11:45 AM on May 31
I've never purchased anything from the following site, and some of the stuff is a little goofy looking, but if you are looking for tanks and stuff like that, that are not super low cut etc, this may be a site you would like to consider.... I first saw it when I was in salt lake city.
http://www.kneeshorts.com
modesty is definitely something that will be debated forever. many of our perceptions of modesty (what is and isnt modest) come from our experiences, our culture, and our upbringing. I grew up wearing bikini's, jeans, rolled up shorts, tanks etc... I went to a college that we had to wear skirts and panty hose all the time.
The point being, modesty is an issue of the heart... a desire to serve those around you, yet at the same time knowing that different guys/girls are going to have different limits of what causes them to stumble and they too must take responsibility for those limits. In many ways its a partnership between christian brothers and sisters to serve each other.
that being said, we can go back to the fact that we are all going to have different standards. There is no place to judge someone or to try to control them into having the same opinion as you (or I), but to gracefully challenge as God gives opportunity and then trust God to the results.
I'm sure I wear things that some would deem immodest, and in other circles i've been teased (not in a mean way, tho) for being too conservative. When other people try to MAKE me think as they do, it is a turn off, though I try to consider their heart in it and not just write them off.
Sooo... all that to say, Thankfully we are all different and can challenge and communicate with each other about these things. I think its good and it teaches us patience and grace in the midst of our differences! :)
I think the site that Christa did is awesome! Not that I would wear everything on there, but whose saying I have to??? Its so cool that she took inititive to come out with a line of clothing to serve others that may struggle with the same things she does... finding clothes that fit her standards... And how cool to have a clothing line all of your own. I obviously dont know her, but I respect the leadership, her business savvyness (is that a word?), responsibility, servanthood. Wow! Way to go, Christa!
Just some random thots.
58. NeedACatchyName said the following at 1:17 PM on May 31
While the vast majority of this thread has focused on girls' modesty and guys controlling their impure thoughts, I think it's worth mentioning that all of this works both ways. That is to say, guys still need to be concerned about modesty and girls need to be concerned about controlling impure thoughts. Being a guy, I'm no authority on the matter, but girls have told me before that when guys wear tight tank-tops or go shirtless while working outside in the summer (I live in an area with extremely hot and humid summers, so this is more common than you might think), or wear overly tight jeans, their eyes can wander. This may not be as prevalent as the scenarios discussed in this thread, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored.
59. nikki said the following at 1:39 PM on May 31
I think the emphasis is on the responsibility of the women in the modesty area (as opposed to the men controlling their eyes/minds) simply because it's just plain easier that way. Women aren't biologically programmed to wear revealing clothes; men ARE in fact programmed to be turned on by what they see. So it's far easier for everyone for the women to just quit whining and cover up, rather than make the guys struggle constantly. WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO FLAUNT OUR BODIES. They are not ours; they are temples of Christ, and no one is going to be doubting your womanhood if you're not spilling cleavage all over the place.
At the same time, I think the whole modesty thing allows guys (and girls too!) to believe, wrongly or no, that women are responsible for what goes on in a guy's mind. That's nonsense. Guys do need to be a lot more mature in this area. I mean, how awful is it when you go to church completely covered up (not in tight stuff either!) and some guys stare at your chest, or move their eyes up and down??!? At that point there is nothing I can do except be sickened, angered, offended or saddened. Modesty can only go so far in helping the guys' thought lives. It has to be a huge effort on their part, and like i said before, if a mind is sick enough no burqua or burlap sack is going to keep men's eyes or minds off your body.
Just a random thought: I don't know why God made men the way he did if it's so easy to be sinful that way. Any thoughts on this?
60. BDB said the following at 2:17 PM on May 31
Leah wrote:
>>a woman's cut button-down means the shirt is shaped to fit with the curve of the waist and hips, and isn't just straight like men's shirts ;)<<
OK, I was kind of kidding. They explained it to me. Costs the same.
What actually happened is the department split about 60-40 - a significant number of the female employees prefer a man's cut. So, it made the order more complicated. But hey, that's what Excel is for...
Then the shirts shrank...
61. Mama Russell said the following at 2:45 PM on May 31
Looking at Christa's website, I was very disappointed. Much of it is clothing that can be found at any WalMart or Macy's. Some of it is just plain ugly (that horrid swimsuit and that "bubble" skirt?).
The dresses were not any more modest than what many young women wear normally.
All in all, though deemed cute, the stuff is neither new nor necessarily more modest.
Just my .02.
62. Marci said the following at 7:36 PM on May 31
Hmmmm....
This is an interesting discussion. I looked at the GirlTalk blog about modesty on your wedding day, and while I agree wholeheartedly with all the guidelines given, I disagree that spaghetti straps are necessarily immodest. I know many conservative Christian men who don't find anything sexual about this, as well....
I wonder - doesn't the size of a woman's bust affect whether or not spaghetti straps look modest? For instance, I've noticed that on girls with a heavy bust, the whole chest straining against shirt thing can be distracting (definitely augmented by such straps) BUT on a small chested woman, spaghetti straps can actually look quite modest. So I think that factors like chest size and frame might influence how these straps look...
Is anyone with me on this, or am I the only one who's noticed this difference?
Blessings to All
63. Oxanna said the following at 12:51 AM on Jun 1
BDB: The difference is in the cut, and sizing. Mens' "small" shirts...ain't. :D (Of course, as you said, they shrank...)
Sorta divergent from the topic, but am I the only girl who has issues with unisex-styled tops? Usually, they're based on mens' styles. Polos, for instance. They aren't the most feminine or flattering things, and often no one troubles to even get a "womens' cut" or size range. :P Maybe one day someone out there can come up with a womens' "uniform" that involves princess seams. Or even bust darts, for crying out loud...
Mama Russell: I wasn't keen on the swimsuit, but the "bubble" silhouette is trendy. Yeah, bubble skirts are generally unattractive, IMHO, but at least it fits with trends. :)
64. C said the following at 6:50 AM on Jun 1
How about some sizes for women? Not everyone is a size 3-13 or XS-L, some of us are "thicker" but still want to be modest and feminine.
65. John A said the following at 8:55 AM on Jun 1
Hah hah but not as modest as THIS!
The "Burqini"
http://www.ahiida.com/index.php?a=subcats&cat=20
66. BDB said the following at 12:55 PM on Jun 1
Oxanna said:
>>Maybe one day someone out there can come up with a womens' "uniform" that involves princess seams. Or even bust darts, for crying out loud...<<
Oh, man...this is getting harder!
Just so you know, since I got sucked into the vortex, I've spent a few HOURS this week discussing the dress code with a couple of our female managers. Oh my...I can't believe people spend this much time thinking about this stuff. Polo shirts for everyone!
OK, maybe women's-cut button downs, (in Perkiwinkle) - they seem to go over well.
Marci wrote:
>>Is anyone with me on this, or am I the only one who's noticed this difference?<<
I can't think of a way to answer that question that doesn't get me into trouble.
Ok - there was one time where a friend of mine complained bitterly that her pastor didn't allow spaghetti straps for the bride if he officiated the wedding. I suggested that he might have had a bad experience once. But now, I don't know...maybe it was just a "rule" that focuses on the wrong thing...
I'm getting a headache again...
67. Lissa said the following at 1:50 PM on Jun 4
It's interesting to hear so many opinions and watch this discussion evolve, but I'm a little disapointed to see how negative some of the postings were... Although there are several items on the ChristaTaylor site that I probably would not wear- there were quite a few that I thought would be really cute and fun- (And this is coming from a momma of 2)- And although not everything is unique and original, there's not much new under the sun anywhere! And yes, you may be able to find some similar things elsewhere, but how many other places do you know of that seek to give "At Least" 30% of their profits to the poor? (As stated on the "about us" page, pretty cool!)
And on a side note: all this about who's to blame, the guy or the girl- We're not accountable for the thoughts our brothers are thinking, but if we wear something that brings a check to our spirit or that's questionable to us or that we know might cause a brother to stumble- We're accountable to God for those things. So please take them seriously. (and this is coming from someone who had a really flawed understanding of this not too long ago!)
Modesty is definately a heart issue, but our hearts are demonstrated in how we act, what we say, what we do, and what we wear- It's all interrelated and also demonstrates our love for our Lord and for our Brothers and Sisters.
Anyway, I know I rambled and I'm really sorry! Most all this was to say that I'm pretty impressed to see a youth become convicted about something and not only develop a vision about it, but begin to enact it- We need more of that in this world! Press on...
68. ACN said the following at 11:50 PM on Jun 9
I just visited a new site called Hot 'N Modest Dresses (hotnmodest.com) that offers modest dresses by Jody California. They have a few cute styles worth checking out. I agree that you can find modest dresses if you are willing to do some leg work in a regular store. But it is nice that some stores focus only on modest clothes. I would like to to see more of that.
69. Joy W. said the following at 7:07 PM on Jun 10
Marci, I've also been wondering about whether and to what extent build (read: bust line) affects what is and isn't sufficiently modest in tops.
I can easily see how spaghetti strap tops and other tank tops could be distracting and immodest on very curvy women, but what about the less endowed ones?
I'd genuinely like to know what guys think about this. Is it immodest for a woman who is small-busted (but not flat) to wear spaghetti strap tops or other tank tops?
70. theresa said the following at 8:56 PM on Jun 10
I'm not saying the bathing suit isn't ugly, but I bought it for health reasons. I burnt my shoulders so bad as a child while swimming that they were covered in blisters.my doctor tells me that keeping my shoulders covered in clothing is better prevention than trying to use sunscreen. I like the design of this suit better than wholesome wear, I tried ohanaswimwear.com but the shirts that would cover my shoulders weren't in my size at the time. I also have a scar from surgery on my left hip that is so high it is only visible to the world in a normal swimsuit so I like the shorts.
71. Vanessa said the following at 9:52 PM on Jun 10
All the clothes on that site look like stuff I wore when I was a teen...and I looked so old. I grew up so fast and I kind of regret it now. Being short and stout does not go with floor-length skirts and turtlenecks and large chests do not go well together either.
I also agree with whoever said something about extended sizes. I absolutely HATE that most clothing in the 18-22 size range is boxy and shapeless with 3/4 sleeves in colors that only look good on certain people. I have a very curvy shape and I think designers forget that people with 42DD tops don't necessarily have 45 inch waists......
I spent MONTHS searching for an appropriate dress for a friend's wedding. Two weeks before it, I finally found a dress that had a waist and sundress type sleeves. June wedding in Florida = HOT!
72. Katie said the following at 8:46 AM on Jun 11
>>girls have told me before that when guys wear tight tank-tops or go shirtless while working outside in the summer (I live in an area with extremely hot and humid summers, so this is more common than you might think), or wear overly tight jeans, their eyes can wander.<<
I can only speak for myself, but I don't see the tank tops and shirtless as being an issue. As for the overly-tight jeans... well, my thoughts tend to be along the lines of "Oh, gross," rather than temptation.
Regarding swimwear... I've been very pleased with my tankini from http://ohanaswimwear.com/ (Look around--they have more styles than just the top on their homepage.) They also offer boardshorts, which look like a good option.
73. Steve said the following at 5:16 PM on Sep 1
The swimsuit on Christa's site may be over the top, but nowhere near as much as this example:
http://www.wholesomewear.com/culotte-a.html
74. fred said the following at 11:33 PM on Sep 26
women need to go back to wearing feminine dresses - just how beautiful is a house dress, kimono, kebaya, malong, etc. --- be women again --- get feminine, do it now
75. Cailin said the following at 10:38 PM on Feb 28
I'm a fifteen year old girl.
I'm in high school.
I have to shop in the juniors department because I don't fit in Woman's sizes yet.
I have a hourglass shape.
That means I have curves.
It is extremely hard to find decent, modest clothes these days.
Everyday I go to school and see girls showing a revolting amount of skin.
I spend hours in stores like JC Penny trying desperately to find a shirt that covers both my midriff and my cleavage. I have to sort through hundreds of immodest shirts, jeans, skirts, dresses and other pants before I can find one or two modest articles of clothing.
Don't even get me started on finding a decent swimsuit.
I think that this modesty issue speaks volumes about our society.
I am extremely unimpressed and upset by the clothing out on the market and the way most of my peers dress everyday.
Our culture needs a reality check.
It shouldn't be that hard to dress modestly.
76. Jessica said the following at 2:18 AM on Jul 15
Hi everyone.
I've commented on boundless before, and I just want to ask y'all a question- have any of you heard of Leslie Ludy's new book coming out called "Set Apart Femininity?" I'm not sure whether she addresses the topic of modesty in dress in the book, but I think I have a pretty good idea that she does. Being modest as a Christian is not about being dowdy or unduly covered up- it's about living a truly set-apart life for Jesus Christ. Jesus told us to "come out from among them and be ye separate." Christ never intended us to look like the world. The world condones and promotes low-cut tops, and short miniskirts, as well as holes cut out of conspicuous places on shirts, etc. We as Christians should not be wearing those types of things. We can look stylish, but we don't have to look immodest. Christ called us to be "salt" and "light" in this dark world. How can we be salt if we look just as immodest as the world does? It's like wearing a halter top, and short-shirts to a synagogue or house of worship. It just doesn't fit. We are not to fit the 'mold' of the world. We can be "salt" by dressing attractively, but being modest at the same time. (Modesty does not mean culottes or ankle-length skirts, or shirts buttoned up to the top button!) You can look pretty, stylish, and trendy, and still be modest. It takes some ingenuity, creativity, and a lot of internet surfing!! (haha.) Personally, I think Christa's clothes on her website are adorable. A few I don't like, and maybe (perhaps?) are "teenager-ish," but overall, she has done her best to create interesting, fun, trendy clothing that's fun to look at, uses unique fabrics, great colors and designs, and is beautiful to gaze upon. She is a really creative person, and among all the "modest, trendy" clothing sites I've visited on the internet today, HERS has been the only one next to layersclothing, that I've liked and found attractive and trendy. Being modest is not about being legalistic, it's about examining your heart to see if you truly want to be "set-apart" for Jesus Christ. Christ didn't make no "junk." Each of us are beautiful in His eyes, because we have been created by Him. Why would some Christians think that the Lord wants us to look dowdy, frumpish, and unattractive? I think it glorifies Him when we wear things that fit our body type, look beautiful and attractive on us, and we don't "hide" our (for example) full-figure in a big, 'modest' down-to-the-ankle-length skirt. (That's not very flattering, however, some Christians think that in order to be modest, you have to dress this way!) Do you think it glorifies and makes Him happy to see you dressing in a "so-called" 'modest,' manner that's supposed to be glorifying Him, and yet your dress is saying to the world that "in order to be a Christian, you must dress like a pioneer-ish frump all the time?" I don't think that's what Christ meant when He called us to be salt and light in our generation.
77. Danielle said the following at 12:28 AM on Sep 21
I like Christa-Taylor stuff but I'm a mother and in my early 20's and would like modest clothes more geared toward ladies.
CHECK OUT THIS SITE:
http://www.sierrabrooke.com
Sierra Brooke is here to offer you stylish solutions for dressing modestly and confidently. Our goal is to provide you with comfortable, afforable, fashionable women's clothing. We understand your clothing needs and will bring you only the very best in modest apparel. Our collection of trendy tops, long skirts, and modest dresses are hand-picked to make you feel unique and feminine. At Sierra Brooke, you can dress with confidence!
Say goodbye to frumpy and hello to chic!
They have a great selections of affordable clothes and dresses for the Fall!