So You Want to Scare Away My Boyfriend
by Candice Watters on 04/05/2007 at 12:16 PM
Though I'm a big fan of Douglas Wilson's books, Her Hand in Marriage and Reforming Marriage, I was bothered by his list of questions for fathers to ask the men who hope to date their daughters. Motte blogged about it Wednesday in So You Want to Court My Daughter.
Still, I'm a big fan of fathers protecting their daughters from lecherous losers who, if they had things their way, would date women indefinitely with no plans to ever make a commitment. So at first, my reaction to Wilson's list was puzzling. I kept thinking about it and eventually realized why. It's not his suggestion, that dads ask young men a list of questions before giving them consent to pursue their daughters romantically, that bothers me. It's a combination of what he suggested asking, and what he didn't.
Most of the questions are straightforward and sensible: How many jobs have you had? How much debt are you carrying? What are your vocational goals? and the like. But some of them include his attempts at tongue-in-cheek humor (at least I hope he's trying to be funny) that I suspect would do more to shut down this important conversation than build relational bridges to a young man who may be a future son-in-law.
Case-in-point: "What was your GPA in college? How come? "
And even worse: "Is there anything in your sexual history that I need to know about? Failed marriage? Live-in girl friend two years before you became a Christian? Live-in girl friend six months after you became a Christian? Got three girls pregnant in high school?"
As for what he leaves out, what about some questions that get to the heart of the man, not just his actions. What about "What book are you currently reading?" "What's the best book you've ever read (besides the Bible)?" and "What are your favorite movies and video games?" (Hopefully the answer to that last one will be something like, Oh, I don't really get into video games). Anymore, it's not enough to ask a guy if he's ever used porn. Where a woman's future marriage is concerned, there are equally troubling habits to investigate.
In his defense, maybe his goal really is to ask shocking questions in an offensive way in order to scare away suitors who don't have the character he's looking for. I just wish he'd said something to that end. As it stands, the article risks turning people off before they have a chance to realize just how important the principles behind what he's suggesting really are.
This conversation is more complex than a Pass/Fail interview, or at least it should be. The goal isn't just to scare away the losers, but to launch a mentoring relationship with the one who turns out to be a winner.
1. David Bromberg said the following at 12:55 PM on Apr 5:
No offense, but I'm getting a bit weary of how much this blog and Boundless in general seem to place the playing of video games at the top of the list of moral failings of men, alongside things like lack of commitment, porn use, and other signs of immaturity. Just because maybe you can't understand why a guy would find it enjoyable to unwind with a couple friends in a game of Halo, or play Zelda for a few hours on a weekend, doesn't mean it's not a valid, mature, way to enjoy oneself. I would describe my video game activities as the above, but I also spend time in God's Word every morning, lead a small group at my church, and play in the worship band. I'm not saying this out of pride, I'm just trying to show that one can play video games in moderation and be a mature Christian, and not be some "exception to the rule". From my experience as a gamer, and as someone who works in the game industry, those obsessed with or addicted to video games are the exception, the same way most people who play sports play casually.
I equally can't see why girls would find it fun to go to the mall and try on clothes with friends, or sit down and read Ann of Green Gables for a few hours on a weekend, but I don't go around lumping those behaviors with signs of immaturity in women like wearing very revealing clothing, or excessive flirting.
Please, Boundless, next time you mention video games in a post, let the person mentioning them be one who has grown up playing video games and is not and has not been addicted, as opposed to the two extremes we most often see.
2. Mark said the following at 12:59 PM on Apr 5:
Candice,
I appreciate your taking a softer approach to Rev. Wilson's comments. Just thinking about facing a battery of questions like that (as I mentioned on the other post) half-way convinces me that I have the gift of singlenss, or at least wouldn't want to pursue marriage. Were I to be asked those questions, I would honestly answer them, realizing that I might be jeopardizing a potential relationship (depending on the father's view of my responses)
3. Suzanne said the following at 1:15 PM on Apr 5:
The title of this post rocks! :)
4. Sina said the following at 1:33 PM on Apr 5:
I'm not sure why people are so against a Dad asking these types of questions? Having a problem with porn is a huge problem that should be addressed before courtship occurs. I've known of women who married guys that ended up being rapists, addicted to gambling and other very serious issues. It's devestating! Why shouldn't a father be able to ask these questions? I personally would not want to blindly allow my son or daughter to date or marry someone who will only be a hindrance to their testimony.
The person you marry will be a father or mother to your children...that's something else to think about. How many stories have we heard about fathers molesting their daughters or beating their families. There are women who have killed all their children too.
Perhaps if the boyfriend is scared away...it's a good thing. That boyfriend could have ruined the woman's life.
5. Anne said the following at 1:34 PM on Apr 5:
Great Post!!!
Ten minutes later I'm still laughing at the title.
6. John M. said the following at 1:35 PM on Apr 5:
I like Candace' take on this a little better too. Frankly, I would think that a woman who is spiritually mature and confident enough to get her father involved like this, probably doesn’t need his involvement to begin with. She’ll probably make a good decision, which renters his involvement a ritual. A nice ritual however. Sadly, the women who really NEED this kind of support would probably never agree to it. It was more common 100 years ago, but not because the women asked for it. It was because the fathers and society imposed it, and the daughters had no choice. (for a good reason: women married in their teens more often back then).
7. jcs said the following at 1:40 PM on Apr 5:
In all these blog posts, there's the assumption that unmarried women are under the authority of their fathers, but unmarried men are not.
Where does this idea come from? What are the limits of it? What if the woman's father isn't Christian? What if the woman is 40 years old and still single -- does her father still have the final word?
Can we see an article or a blog post on this idea? This seems to be an "elephant in the room" that's troubling people but is never really addressed.
Note to the Boundless editors: I know you're reading this post, because you moderate...respond please ;-)
8. Sam said the following at 2:16 PM on Apr 5:
I'm sorry, but please. If my father behaved this way in front of a guy I'd be mortified. There are less confrontational, drill-sargent like ways of finding out if the guy interested in your daughter is right for her. Here's an idea: try spending time with him! Don't just ask a bunch of questions that really don't get you any closer to knowing who he is.
Here's the clincher: I don't necessarily believe a guy needs my parent's blessing to ask me out. To marry me, he better ask my daddy, but to spend time getting to know me...no way. Boundless makes this all waaaay too complicated. Lighten up.
And get back to non-dating articles. Sheesh.
9. BrooX said the following at 2:51 PM on Apr 5:
I didn't get that attitude from the questions article. However, after your statements, I now realize I _was_ assuming the interviewer and interviewee would be asking and receiving such questions with a positive tone and heart for getting to know each other.
I suppose also my perception has much to do with my experiences. I've been through multiple job interviews, even conducted a few, and helped interview a few students for ministry and project service. The heart I've experienced and brought to it is always one of wanting to get to know the person and gauge confidence and competence levels. I've only had the pleasure of having get-to-know-you potential suiter type interviews with a couple of fathers. Which, went quite well, I thought; though, one was more of a humorous yet semi-serious, shot-gun-wedding lecture from the large German father of my first girlfriend in college. I was a little shocked that he would bring up that subject, but I could see he had a friendly heart and trusted me (especially after he made sure I knew he owned some big guns and regularly went hunting) :)
For both interviewers and 'viewees, I humbly recommend asking God to give a right heart for it and trust that God will handle the rest. The Bible does say that it's God who grants favor and moves hearts (not so much our perfection).
10. Alex C. said the following at 2:55 PM on Apr 5:
I agree with David's post. It does seem at times like conservative websites, and sometimes society at large, degrades video game playing in general, and not just in cases of addiction. I mean, all you have to do is compare the reaction that you get from someone if you say "I like to play sports" vs "I like to play video games". Playing a video game, of itself, seems to be looked down upon in comparison to playing a sport, reading a book, or even watching a movie or TV (although that activity gets plenty of negative attention too).
The idea behind the list of questions for fathers to ask is good; it's definitly important information that would need to be known about a potential spouse. However, I don't think asking these questions interrogation style would really be the best way to get this information. I think Sam's suggestion of having a father spend time with a potential husband might work better than just conducting an interview.
I also would be interested in hearing a response to jcs's comment
11. Vanessa said the following at 3:34 PM on Apr 5:
I'm so glad you posted this today Candace, I was still thinking about these scary questions after reading them yesterday. If someone were to ask me these questions (especially in the sarcastic light some of them are asked in), I would probably walk away. They feel judgmental and disrespectful.
Instead, when I'm seeking info about a potential guy in my life, I want to see his heart in light of his past mistakes and behavior. God is about his redeeming work in all of us (and we are all sinners)-- let's approach each other from a position of truth and grace instead of legalism.
12. James said the following at 3:45 PM on Apr 5:
Going back to David Bromberg's comment, I play video games, work in the gaming industry, and am totally addicted to playing in the band at church and leading in youth ministry. My favorite games are Halo 2, NHL 2K7 and of course Guitar Hero which my girlfriend plays with me as well. And my girlfriends dad couldn't be happier.
13. Mark said the following at 3:57 PM on Apr 5:
The thing that bothers me about this particular line of thought is that it assumes that the guy has all the burden of proof while the girl does not. Personally, as a guy, I see several things here: A) I would prefer to get to know my girlfriend's dad as a friend, a mentor, a counselor, and so on. Interrogation is not the way to build a friendship. More importantly, B) no mention is made of testing the woman to see if she is morally correct, etc. I completely understand the rationale (i.e. porn use, rape, etc) but I believe it has to be a two-way street in the relationship.
14. Michele said the following at 4:02 PM on Apr 5:
No one has commented on what David said in response here, and I think he brings up some seriously valid points. Just saying.
Also, I do like Candace's take on this - I think there are very good ways to judge a man's character beyond scaring the heck out of him.
15. Kendra said the following at 4:34 PM on Apr 5:
David,
I agree with you. I don't see video games as a major failing, or even a minor one. I see them as a way a person unwinds and has fun. I wouldn't want anyone telling me that because I like to shop/hang out/do my nails/ or even heaven forbid watch tv that I'm immature and have a failing along the line of being addicted to porn. It's a stance that is beyond harsh and kills it's own credibility.
As to the rest of the article I like Candace's take better. I'm already in a more awkward place as I know longer live with my parents and I would want their input but meeting my family would be interesting enough without an interrogation room and all. Though, since neither of my parents graduated college I doubt they care about the gpa aspect. :D
16. Darin said the following at 4:41 PM on Apr 5:
Sina, I understand what you are saying. These things are all very important to find out early on. In fact there are even more questions than just the "21" that should be answered. I think that the point of contention isn't over the fact that these questions are being asked, but rather the confrontational nature of how those questions are presented.
I agree with Candice that there are better ways of presenting these questions that will "build relational bridges" rather than create walls of defensiveness. For example, if the questions were rephrased a bit and were asked in the context of a father/son talk...it would make a HUGE difference.
I also believe by demonstrating a more caring attitude, the father will glean much more reliable information from the young man. After all, a young man is a lot more likely to confide in a "father figure" than to a "police figure".
This brings up another issue: HONESTY! What point is there in asking a suitor if he's a rapist? Questions like that don't result in reliable information; they only insult the integrity of the honest. The best thing that a father can do is to watch for the warning signs (i.e. control issues, manipulative language, a secretive nature, etc.) This is only possible if the father remains involved in the couple's courtship (which is why those relational bridges are so important).
jcs, that's an excellent observation about the double-standard of daughters having accountability to parents but not guys. Personally, I think that guys need that accountability too (and I believe that scripture supports it as well).
As far as "authority" goes, I don't believe that parents have dictatorial rights over their grown children. I believe that a better word would be "responsibility". Parents are responsible to advise their grown children to the level that their grown children allow. (And as children we owe our parents the respect of considering their advice.)
17. Lee said the following at 5:51 PM on Apr 5:
I tend to agree with most everything you guys (and gals) say; I'm sure you hear it fairly often, but you're pretty wise. But on this point, I gonna have to side with David. Video games are not the root of all evil, despite the apparent popular opinion.
Granted, they can be abused. So can sex, drugs, alcohol, or anything else. Video games are not exclusive to the realm of potentially (key word there) harmful things, but can be very enjoyable when used with wisdom and judgment (much like many forms of recreation, such as shopping or sports like David mentioned, or even the ever popular subject here on Boundless, sex...)
About the article itself, I would welcome being asked those questions. Granted, I probably wouldn't appreciate being put in the hot seat at the time, but it would be reassuring to know that the woman's father cares enough to look out for her interests. Also, it would give me a good view of the situation that I'd really be getting myself into, and my ability and willingness to answer those questions would give me insight into whether or not I really want to get into it.
18. Marci said the following at 7:40 PM on Apr 5:
Question all!
Why are so many people assuming that this is going to be an interogation session?!? Wilson doesn't seem to impliy it has to be! Yes, the questions are frank, but given the fact that there are a lot of wolves in sheeps clothing in the church, it's useful for someone older and wiser to meet the guy, get to know him, and tactfully ask questions.
This is particualarly the case/needed in large churches, where men can easily fly under the radar. And how many times do we hear the saying love is blind?!? This is why mentors and/or parents should be involved in finding out these details! Sometimes those older and wiser (and note, older doesn't always mean wiser lol) REALLY CAN pick up a snake and throw it far before it bites you!
And as Sina pointed out with the case of people marrying rapists etc, wouldn't you prefer a little discomfort (father asks questions of suitor) now than later (father slacked up didn't do job daughter married to a RAPIST daughter now needs counseling to overcome the trauma so does the seven year old child produced by the union ?!!?)
Let me go on record here: I hate eating liver, but I do it because it is good for me. Some of the complaints about this method boil down to 'but it could be uncomfortable/awkward' - BUT does that mean this model isn't GOOD for you?!?
And once again - do you all really, REALLY think so poorly of your fathers that you believe they'd ask these questions in a rude way? I realize there may be some situations where the father isn't a godly man/example - but the overwhelming amount of posters airing these sentiments leads me to really realize exactly how much (if the fathers are REALLY this bad!) the families in the church are deteriorating! Again, that's if the fathers are all this bad (I know some people may have unsavory situations, but THIS many comments of this nature on a Christian site?!?)
Anyways, my mother would be proud of my 'liver' concession here (woebegone sigh)....and I ain't gonna lie - I'm still working on being as strong on eating cooked spinach lol....
Responses are welcome
Blessings to you all!
19. Mindlab said the following at 8:11 PM on Apr 5:
Great post. I would agree that Wilson's article was far too tongue in cheek. There is another side though; as a young man who has spent a great deal of time and effort keeping myself pure, I look forward to being asked these questions for a couple reasons. First, I'm confident that God's grace has enabled me to live in a way I am not ashamed of. Second, questions like this demonstrate that the young lady's father takes this seriously, which is good.
I will certainly ask these sorts of questions of young men interested in my daughters (someday. . .) and I would expect that same from "her" father.
20. jcs said the following at 9:30 PM on Apr 5:
(fyi, I am male)
Darin said:
"As far as "authority" goes, I don't believe that parents have dictatorial rights over their grown children. I believe that a better word would be "responsibility". Parents are responsible to advise their grown children to the level that their grown children allow."
I like your view, but it doesn't seem to be shared by the authors (or the majority of the commenters) on this blog. Note how "permission" keeps coming into this discussion...people talk about how women's fathers give men "permission" to court their daughters. That doesn't sound like an advisory role to me.
Plus, some have commented on how a father "transfers" his authority from himself to his daughter's husband when his daughter marries. Does this mean that men exercise "parental" authority over their wives? Because that doesn't sound right.
So many of the concepts in this discussion seem to come from the days when women were legally considered to be property...like Jake said on the other thread...if we want to return to the courtship model that we had 70 years ago, fine, we can do that, as soon as women stop going to college and working outside the home.
21. martha said the following at 9:49 PM on Apr 5:
I sure hope some of those items were supposed to be humorous. I think another commenter was right in one way: the questions are posed very disrespectfully. My dad has the right to ask my boyfriend any question he wants, but earning respect is a mutual thing between two men that may eventually be equals in my life, and showing some respect in the process of investigating this suitor's worthiness is a worthwhile investment.
22. Laur said the following at 10:42 PM on Apr 5:
(particularly relating to John M.'s comment)
one thing that is very very important to remember when we consider the approach toward marriage, to use a volleyball term, is that when people become mature, responsible, passionate Christians who have proven themselves good judges of character, they are not autonomous. sometimes i think that we american christians s in particular tend to think that the ideal is independence, and the more we grow and mature in our faith, the more independent we should be of other people. i think that's true in a sense, but God calls us to community, and the more deeply we are drawn into Him, the more deeply we are drawn into community. the goal is never to be able to make huge life-decisions by ourselves, any more than it is to listen to great sermons at home alone on sunday mornings. we ALWAYS need each other, even if i'm right about my life and you're wrong.
i realize this doesn't specifically address the issue of parents, and whose, and all that sort of rot, but i think the point is a foundational one to this discussion. if we are seeking to understand how God would have us think about the process of getting to the altar, i really think we must not think of ourselves as ideally autonomous.
hope that's helpful.
23. derek_from_canada said the following at 11:04 PM on Apr 5:
Hmm,
In a dollars/hour entertainment choice, video games are one of the most economical choices. Also it is more interactive and social than TV.
(especially online gaming)
Cheaper than movies, golf, or radio control planes. Less commitment than hunting, car racing, car collecting(tuning), paint ball.
No expensive equipement, few health risks. Can be played as a couple.
What more could a hobby offer?
But like any leisure or hobby, if it replaces something "better" than maybe it becomes a "bad" thing?
(BTW, I do not own a console, but my nephews make me play GameCube because I am the cool uncle. I have tried PC games.)
24. M. said the following at 11:44 PM on Apr 5:
Candace, I'm glad you didn't appreciate Wilson's list of questions either. When I got to the "What was your GPA in college? How come?" question, I just quit reading Motte's post. Maybe Wilson was trying to be funny ... but "How come?" Seriously? First of all, I probably would have corrected the father's grammar with something like, "You mean 'Why'?" And then I would have seriously considered whether or or not I wanted him to be my father-in-law. Not because his own GPA probably wasn't all that stellar, but because he thinks condescension is either funny, helpful to his daughter finding a husband, or both.
25. m Castillo said the following at 12:24 AM on Apr 6:
I don't think too much of the video games... Candice is just older... the OG article is way off base and gives a bad name to Christianity. Go to a normal church that's not in the midwest and you find broken people who need Jesus, people who have messed up a lot, SINNERS! The thing about college was ridiculous. 1 out of 100 people in the world have a college education, it truely is a priveledge. What would Jesus have answered? Where is room for God to work in your life and change careers? The guy sounds like a stereotypical white
conservative midwestern guy and his standards seem to be more cultural than spiritual... maybe I just come from a "real" Christian home where life isn't perfect and parents never pushed me to go to college.
So... a guy can give all his time, money and efforts to a woman but a hobby such as videogames is bad?
David... word
Candice... I like your alternative questions. I'm reading FAST FOOD NATION and I'm learning so much about life and business and I haven't even got to the disgusting food part
26. m Castillo said the following at 12:53 AM on Apr 6:
sorry for the double post, go to the link, these people are somewhat stuck in the past, "Lord's Day?" I agree but the wording is straaight from my great great parents
27. Charles H. said the following at 7:01 AM on Apr 6:
You know, one point we haven't addressed in this discussion is the content of the games. I agree with David that the idea of video games is in itself no more objectionable than, say, solitaire -- both are pleasant ways to pass a bit of time. And even Plugged In has no complaint about many of them; Gran Turismo 4 comes to mind as a good example. How is simulated driving any worse than getting in one's car and taking a cruise?
With that said, there are games out there that do concern me. GTA comes to mind here. The violence personally worries me less than the sex, just because it seems to be less of a temptation for most of the Christians I know.
Getting back to the article, though, I think there are some other questions that probably ought to be asked if one is to take this approach... though I definitely agree with those who suggest using them as a gradual getting-to-know-you thing, rather than an interrogation. These are things I ask women as I get to know them.
- When was your most recent relationship? How did it end, and why?
- Have you ever been involved with drugs? Smoked? Had a problem with alcohol or gambling? If yes, how long ago and what have you done about it since then?
- Tell me about your close friends. Why do you like them?
I guess I'd say the important questions fall into two groups: getting to know someone's personality, and watching for signs of trouble.
28. Matt said the following at 7:52 AM on Apr 6:
Wow, talk about an over-reaction to the video game comment.
Yesterday at dinner, my friend and I were talking about how playing games or watching TV can be just as sinful as being drunk. To us, the problem with those activities is that they can be a selfish use of your time.
When I read some of these posts alot of what I hear is selfishness. Somehow, we deserve 2 hours to "relax" and have it all to ourself. I don't think playing video games or watching TV are necessarily wrong however it really comes down to your motivation behind partaking in them. I usually play video games or watch TV because I'm bored and just want the day to be over quickly. I've played video games with the best of them. I've played the gamut from Counterstrike to WoW. At times I've been addicted and most of the times I haven't been. However, I really wouldn't say that anything positive has come out of the oodles of hours I've played.
So, basically I'm trying to cut back on the # of hours I watch TV/play video games and fill it with better activities like reading my Bible, praying, actually getting sleep, working out, etc.
29. Joy W. said the following at 8:30 AM on Apr 6:
Mark,
You were concerned that there's "no mention is made of testing the woman to see if she is morally correct, etc." If you go back to Motte's original post, there's a link to a list of questions for potential suitors to ask the women they're considering pursuing.
While some of the items are the same or at least similar, there are some differences. In comparison, the questions focused slightly less on moral issues and more on the woman's capacity to serve. (Making it sound even more like a job interview!) Honestly, I cringed upon reading that list!
30. Alex C. said the following at 9:39 AM on Apr 6:
"Why are so many people assuming that this is going to be an interogation session?!?"
I think the reason for this may be the whole list thing, at least for me. When I see a big numbered list of questions like that, it's easy to assume that the author means for those questions to be asked as the list. But that could be me being too literal, like always ^^.
Judging by the responses to the video game issue, seems like there might be the need for another blog post about it ^^.
31. Thomas said the following at 10:44 AM on Apr 6:
While I would personally find questions such as these annoying, I would answer them for the sake of the girl I am interested in. However, I could not in good conscience answer questions like #4, where the questions pertain to personal information about my parents. That is not up to me to divulge, and I would have to politely tell the father that I won't answer the question and why I won't do it. It is especially inappropriate if the two families already know each other.
32. Chris B. said the following at 11:05 AM on Apr 6:
I support the 21 questions posed by pastor Wilson as a guide to the basic information that a father should know about a potential son-in-law before giving his blessing to marriage; however, I agree that a father sitting down with a young man and firing off all 21 questions sounds more like an interrogation than a wise approach to dating/courtship. I also agree that both sets of parents should have expectations for their son/daughter, and that the parents of the young man should be free to ask questions of their potential future daughter-in-law; after all, if it is fair to ask a young man about his ability to provide for a family, then it is fair to ask a young woman about her capacities to fulfill domestic responsibilities and care for children. Men are certainly not alone in having troubled, sin-filled pasts, and women--as well as men--should be open with anything from their past that might affect their present relationship.
Most wise, godly fathers will recognize that any young man talking with them for the first time about starting a relationship with their daughter will probably be nervous, and speak with the gentleness, confidence, understanding, seriousness, and strength that are required for the situation. Of course fathers struggling with sinful attitudes could succumb to the temptation to act like bullies or drill sergeants when speaking with a potential suitor; but, if the young man has made a wise choice in pursuing a godly young woman, the chances of encountering such a father will hopefully be minimal.
I add my voice to those who are tired of people--particularly older people who are obviously ignorant of the hobby--speaking derisively of videogames. As a relatively new form of media, videogames are only gradually overcoming the social stigmas attached to them, and the more conservative elements of society will naturally be slower in accepting their value. In this light, I am not surprised to see so much misunderstanding and misrepresentation of videogames in Christian circles; however, I sincerely hope that we can one day move past these attitudes.
I am glad to see the presentation of different perspectives on these controversial issues, and I look forward to further fruitful discussion.
33. David Bromberg said the following at 11:23 AM on Apr 6:
Apologies in advance for the long post, and sorry for somewhat hijacking this post. I would definitely be open for a different blog post under which to put comments (or the much talked about forum- maybe we should all move to TrueU). To respond to Matt:
I don't think it's an overreaction. If I (or the other commenters on this blog) were just responding to this one subtle mention of video games, it would be one thing. But FotF, Boundless, and the Line have consistently characterized playing video games as immature, selfish, addictive, and strange. I feel a lot of this is because, as one poster pointed out, most of the folks in these organizations are older and did not grow up with a culture where playing video games was a popular form of entertainment. But inexperience with an emerging part of culture shouldn't mean we should demonize it. It seems fear and mischaracterization of video games is the new "rock and roll is from the devil" of this generation.
In response specifically to your points about selfishness- I agree that video games, like many other ways we entertain ourselves, can be selfish. But where do you draw the line? Is it selfish to spend time reading a novel? Is it selfish to spend time with another hobby?
We are told to love others like we love ourselves, and the implication there is to will the best for and take care of others like we naturally will the best for and take care of ourselves. Any hobby becomes selfish if it is so obsessive that it takes the place of loving others, but there is a legitimate human need to take care of ourselves, and unwinding and recharging are a part of that. God is not anti-entertainment- he wants us to have a rich abundant life that we enjoy, otherwise I don't believe he wouldn't have imbued us with the creative talents to make art, music, books, and video games to enjoy in moderation.
I am glad you (Matt) are mixing it up and spending time on other things besides video games. That's healthy. But it's a bit silly to say that nothing positive ever comes out of playing video games (or other recreational activities). While our rich, life-changing experiences will most likely come from elsewhere, like our times in the Bible, that doesn't mean we don't also benefit from the time to relax and enjoy ourselves without having to be so focused.
And wouldn't you say you have occasionally been benefited spiritually from reading a book for enjoyment, or watching a movie, because of the story and how it aligned itself with the Divine Story? CS Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia would be a great example of that for me. I thoroughly enjoyed the story, but it also brought me closer to God. Wouldn't it be amazing if there were more believers who didn't demonize video games and instead saw the potential to use their creative abilities in making interactive games that gave the player a glimpse of God's Kingdom through the story and the way the player interacted in it? Like Christians used the medium of rock and roll once demonized by the past generation to bring many closer to God in worship, let's use the medium of video games to tell stories and create experiences that draw the gaming generation closer to God.
34. Loris said the following at 11:43 AM on Apr 6:
Well, since video gaming does seem to be a sore spot here, I thought I should put my two cents in. No, it should not be a make-or-break factor in a dating relationship, or a marriage, but I do think it's an important question to ask when people are considering going out, and it is a concern I do wish my father had brought up with my boyfriend around the time we were engaged. I knew my now-husband was a hardcore gamer when we started dating, but it was all theoretical because we were at a college campus and he had left his consoles at home for his younger siblings. Once we were married, however, his console gaming and PC gaming were revealed as his only source of recreation. Since I had rarely played video games as a child and had nowhere near his skill level, he wasn't terribly interested in playing with me, and the online community of PC gaming provided social interaction that completely excluded me. I would say that he's seriously addicted, I doubt he would. I now play World of Warcraft online as an attempt to join him since I can't beat him and I greatly enjoy both the game and the online friends I've made, but I have had to make a conscious effort to keep my speech clean because people in my guild know I am a Christian and I want to stand out. Sadly, he hasn't. So please don't take too much offense, you dedicated gamers. I know it is entirely possible to have a busy, fulfilling life in the real world and use gaming as a relaxing outlet. If you can balance those things, proceed with blessings and please don't take the warning personally. But for every one who is not addicted, there are probably three or four who are, and many who have serious addictions to the point where the online world almost supersedes real life in importance. Based on my experience, I think a gentle inquiry into a young suitor's gaming habits can be extremely useful.
35. Brett said the following at 12:28 PM on Apr 6:
Long time reader, first time poster.
As a person who plays video games on occasion (mostly puzzle games and Zelda, I can't get my hands around the controllers of the gizmos these whippersnappers use today) to unwind (is it just me, or is this post bringing alot of gamers out of the woodwork, or possibly parents' basements :)), I would like to say that I don't find the fact that someone would imply that gaming is immature to be offensive. Goodness knows I have heard it enough. I think it might be one of the cultural divide misunderstanding that everyone has (I was raised in front of the babysitter known as Mario.) I believe what is causing the strong reaction in myself and possibly the other posters is that in the post above it is stated as an "equally troubling habit" as porn. Porn is sin. Not just an addiction to porn, but porn itself. Videogames in and of themselves are not. An addiction? Yes. Playing a few rounds games to unwind? I don't believe so. That being said, it is possible that Candice is implying addiction to games is a troubling habit (and sin), which I couldn't disagree with. I just don't know if that was made clear.
Regarding the "21 Questions", I agree with many of the questions listed but, like alot of people seem to be saying, the tone in which they were asked seemed to be confrontational. Maybe, as has been stated, some of these are tongue-in-cheek. If that is the case, he shouldn't be quitting his day job to become a comedian. I particularly was a little surprised to see income listed as a question. I can understand asking about debt, seeing what types of things his money is spent on, but I refuse to tell even my parents how much I make in a year. I have always been under the impression that that is a rude question to ask, and would only divulge it after I knew the woman thoroughly enough to know that she is the one I want to marry. Maybe I am just mixing up the goals of dating and courtship and looking at the question in the wrong light.
Also, as Darin (I believe) alluded to, honesty plays a huge role in these questions. If the focus of these questions is to get to the first date, and the woman is attractive enough, any guy could probably intially lie his way through the questions and come out looking much better than someone who is honest. That is why I take issue with the comments above implying that without these questions a rapist could marry a woman. The fruits stored in someones heart will come out. Maybe not during direct questioning at first, but over time habits and sins will start to be revealed. This is why I feel the father's goal shouldn't be using questions to know a person, but rather develop a relationship with that person. Attitudes will arise from conversations, choices will be seen, and an appropriate response can be made. If a woman marries a sexual predator, it seems to me that she shares a portion (not the whole) of the blame for not asking the deeper questions,praying for God's revelation and watching for signs that the guy could be trouble.
Finally, as this is my first post, I would like to take the opportunity say how much I appreciate Boundless Line and the discussions that develop here. Truth be told, I fall to the left of most of the political posts in here, don't believe courtship is a completely viable system in the modern world or any more Godly than dating in and of itself, and, therefore, disagree with many of the posts. However, I find that even on the issues I disagree with, just having the topic serves as a great way to search myself to find why I disagree, and to think more deeply on whether I am critically thinking about subjects or just going with those who agree. I have found many of the posts to be a great catalyst to examining myself and what I believe. Little things, such as updates on weekends, show me how much you care about the readers. And, speaking of readers, some of the most thoughtful debate I have seen can be found on these pages.
Sorry for the length of this post. And, again, thank you.
36. R.C said the following at 1:25 PM on Apr 6:
About Hobbies (sports, video games, tv, etc)
In my estimation of the issue, I think that a guy has to ask himself if his current hobbies would be a distraction to his future marriage and family ? Within the whole video game realm can you say that the games being played by most gamers pass the Philippians 4:8 test "whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things." Please understand I am not writing this to hound on guys about their hobbies because I know I have hobbies (such theatre which can be semi-expensive) that, if I get married, may require I do with less frequency or give up entirely in order to build a strong relationship with my husband and children. Both men and women need to realize that marriage takes sacrifice and much like when we become Christian we sometimes have to give up things that may be good (like hobbies or goals, etc) so that we are not distracted.
37. Dan said the following at 1:34 PM on Apr 6:
I guess because I come from a non-christian family, and that I have many sins in my past, I have been disqualified from marriage. Sad that when I first came to Christ, I saw all the "together" Christians getting married when they were young, and I somehow thought that they "earned" marriage 'cause they didn't mess up in life and that they came from a solid family. I gradually overcame that thought...
Until the last month or two when I have found myself reading boundlessline more. Now I am starting to think that perhaps marriage is only for those who have it all together and haven't messed up.
38. Sina said the following at 2:00 PM on Apr 6:
I really don't think these questions are meant to be asked in one session. I'm sure any rational and tactful individual would use the questions as a guide to gauge their discussions with the young man or woman. Further, the questions could be reworded or tailored towards particular issues as well.
As far as the video game arguement. Just like anything else in life (watching TV, eating, shopping, etc.) if you make an idol of it then it will be a problem. I personally know folks who play video games from the moment they get home until bedtime. But the same goes for TV watchers. If the video games take away from your relationships (especially the one with God) then it is evil.
39. Melissa said the following at 2:07 PM on Apr 6:
Hello Everyone,
I just wanted to say that I really agree with Marci's comment that it would be better to find out about these things now then later. I also don't think that the author necessarly meant an interrigation session so much as a father to find out the kind of man his daughter will be going out with. I think that today, far too few couples ask for the support of their parents right from the start and I think it's so important because your own perspective in dating someone can become clounded once emotions take charge. I'm all for the principles in this article.
40. Laura Z said the following at 3:39 PM on Apr 6:
I guess I don't get the problem here...I mean, yes, these questions might scare off a boyfirend, but at the same time, if he has a right heart, it should more likely get him thinking, help him build relationship with a possible future inlaw, and encourage him to cherish the woman whom he is dating more...Also, I wouldn't think these were exactly first date questions(especially considering the fact that most parents don't meet the boyfriend until a little later on!)If they are later in the relationship, why does it have to scare a guy away...What is wrong with a focus on accountability?
41. Ted Slater said the following at 8:57 PM on Apr 6:
Anonymous -- Please read Suzanne's article that we published this week: Seven Myths Single Women Believe. One of the common "myths" is exactly what you describe in your last sentence -- "If I were just godly enough, the Lord would give me a husband."
No, God blesses us despite our sinfulness. And he doesn't withhold his blessing just because of our falling short. He's an inexplicably generous Lord.
42. Jake said the following at 9:04 AM on Apr 7:
"lecherous losers who, if they had things their way, would date women indefinitely with no plans to ever make a commitment."
Here's a point I've brought up before: under Christian morality, in which sex outside of marriage is forbidden, why would a lecher date a woman indefinitely with no plans to marry her? Of course, if we're talking about one or both people not even being professing Christians, things are different, but in that case we've got bigger issues to worry about. But if the couple in question, consisting of an immature man and a woman who desires marriage, is hewing to Christian sexual morality, whether because the woman refuses to have sex with the man or because the man, despite his immaturity, has a conscience that won't let him violate Christian sexual morality, or both, what would a lecher get out of such an indefinite dating relationship? Indeed, if he were truly lecherous, he would marry her, because then he would get to have sex!
So I ask again, why are the Boundless people, Debbie Maken, Al Mohler, et al., always claiming that a tendency of professing Christian men to date and never marry Christian women is due to some lustfulness on the part of the men?
43. Reader said the following at 9:08 AM on Apr 7:
Personal disclaimer: I'm 29, have an extremely strong relationship with my father, and am discussing marriage with the man I'm dating. And I STILL found the tone of this article to be distinctly weird.
My dad is a wonderful man--I value both my parents' input in my life, and talk to them almost daily. However, my father is no longer my protector, and doesn't need to volley intrusive (and rude) questions at guys who want to date me. And honestly, my dad would be APPALLED if my boyfriend asked "permission" to marry me...he views me as an independent adult that he's very proud of, and one who has her own house, career, friends, life, etc. (He tells me this, I might add.)
The really strange thing about Wilson's comments are that these are the sort of questions that 1-are impossible to verify without getting to know the guy for some time (it's easy to lie, but not as easy to live one), and 2-questions that the WOMAN should be more concerned about than her father. A woman who's not mature enough to realize the importance of her boyfriend's walk with the Lord is a woman who's not ready for a relationship. My dad doesn't need to know about my boyfriend's past relationships, financial history, and personal struggles...I do.
I am really concerned about the almost hysterical focus that Boundless has on marriage. God's timing is the only timing that matters--as I said, I'm 29 and only recently found the man I want to spend my life with. My season of singleness was one that God used in many ways, and His timing is perfect.
44. Leah said the following at 5:02 AM on Apr 9:
Sina, no-one is against a father asking these types of questions. It's the specific questions that bother people. I was bothered by it too- like the GPA question, or the 'past romantic/sexual history' question. What happened in his past is not important (well, it is to a certain degree) but what is more important is what he is like as a man now. A 15 year old kid who messed around with a few girls in high school is very different to a 22 year old man who has learnt his lesson!
And Reader, Boundless is not hysterical when it comes to marriage. The biggest thing they do is urge people to be intentional about marriage. This has nothing to do with not trusting God's timing.
It's like the old blonde/lotto joke. (Excuse the stab this takes at blonds. I hope no-one's offended- I used to be blond but still find blond jokes funny :P)
A blond prays to God- "Lord, please let me win the Lotto this week. Please, please!" The Lotto is drawn and she finds out she didn't win. Disappointed, she petitions God even more earnestly the next week. "Lord, PLEASE let me win the Lotto this week! Please! It's so important!!" again, she doesn't win. Disappointed, she prays to God "Lord, why haven't I won the Lotto yet? Could you PLEASE let me win the Lotto this week?" this time God replies. "Look, at least meet me half way and buy a lotto ticket this week!"
It's like someone praying earnestly for a husband- but never doing anything to increase their chances. Boundless is encouraging people to "buy a lotto ticket"- to simply get themselves into the game, give themselves a chance- to intentionally aim to make themselves available as a spouse. This is not denying God's sovereignty or his timing- it is working in cooperation with it.
I also have to agree with others posters on the issue of video games. Please, Boundless, get off the video-game's back! If my father were to ask my boyfriend what his favourite video/computer game was, he would probably get 2 or 3 answers. Does this mean my boyfriend is not suitable husband material? Of course not! My father himself would have numerous favourite computer games, as would my brother. And NONE of these men are addicted. Their computer-game-playing does not detract from their work, their faith, etc etc.
And thumbs up to Thomas, as I hope many of the other men on this thread woudl also respond. The questions might be stupid, rude, or whatnot, but if the girl is worth it, then that's all that matters I suppose. Within reason (like not divulging information that is not up to you to divulge.)
45. Hannah said the following at 11:33 AM on Apr 9:
Ok, I agree. I see one major problem with the questions in that book; a dad needs to know a guy's character. A battery of questions won't tell you everything. Getting to know a guy is important. The dad should get to know him, spend time with him, ask other people about him, and if possible, take notice of him at church, or wherever.
Knowing character includes such things as a general sexual history. However, I don't know hardly any guys who would give more than a general sexual history. For example, saying "I am not a virgin because of a past relationship before I was saved, but I've repented since then and I'm now saved." is better than "Well, I slept with Susy before I was saved, and that was a mistake." Also, couldn't a dad be more general about things? Like ask, "How are you doing in your purity right now?" No guy should have to open up every aspect of his personal life without good reason. If there's a big concern, maybe the dad should get to know him better first.
46. BDB said the following at 12:26 PM on Apr 9:
How about this answer on the video games:
"Your daughter and I like to play Civilization IV against each other."
47. Jake said the following at 12:58 PM on Apr 9:
BDB: Even better, how about "Let's make this a contest. You and I square off in Civilization IV, and the winner gets to keep your daughter!" ;)
48. BDB said the following at 3:23 PM on Apr 9:
"Your head would look good on a pole, sir."
49. m Castillo said the following at 12:46 AM on Apr 11:
from the comments hannah made,
I'm not sure even those questions are necessary. Some people have sinned in that area while saved, some people still have a problem at times. Just because you are dating a Christian doesn't mean there is no temptation or that people still won't mess up. Even if a dad asked "how are you doing with purity" seems like too much. What are you going to say if you and your gf/bf had a bad week. What are going to say... "actually, your son/daughter couldn't keep your hands off me this week." I think if the parent knows that you have a relationship with a spiritual mentor, that would be sufficient.
As for if I had a daughter, I don't think I would want to know too much personal detail. You get to know people over time and asking about a spotty past doesn't really do much good at all except maybe to bring up past shame and make things ackward.
50. Rana W. said the following at 7:58 PM on Apr 11:
As an unmarried 20-something who has a very good relationship with a godly father (who is VERY involved in all my relationships), I have this to say:
Some of those questions are not only irrelevant; they are rude.
I want my father to have healthy relationships with my guy friends, from which he learns FAR more than he would with an interrogation! If my father, brother, boyfriend, and some other men go 4-wheeling or fishing (without me), they all get to know each other in a personal way which (hopefully) would NEVER include my potential future husband having to face a barrage of personal and unwanted questions.
Not all boyfriends turn into husbands. Why should my father know every intimate detail about every man that passes through my life, especially if he doesn't stay? Is there a point to that? As the relationship grows and trust builds, I expect a boyfriend and myself to ask and learn more about each other. My dad doesn't need to know that a potential boyfriend had a problem with porn in high school, but I may need to know that. I've faced this problem before--more than once.
Lastly, I value and respect my dad's advice above all things, but this is still my decision. Dad isn't going to spend the next 60 years eating breakfast with the guy. So I should be the one to decide how much is necessary for me to know about his past in order for me to trust him. If I learn that I can't trust him, or if I can't accept his past, then I'll put an end to the dating. But if dad can't trust me or accept my decisions, THAT'S a problem!
I might add that in order to make a well-informed decision, I have to spend time getting to know the guy. A list of questions won't do the job.