So You Want to Court My Daughter by Motte Brown on 04/04/2007 at 1:20 PM

Pastor Doug Wilson, author of such books as Her Hand in Marriage and Reforming Marriage, provides a list of 21 questions for fathers to ask young men expressing interest in courting their daughters.

Here's a sample:

1. Tell me about your spiritual background. What was your church upbringing like? At what point did your spiritual experience become real to you? Have you ever had a period of spiritual rebellion?
2. When was the last time you read through the entire Bible? The New Testament?
3. Do you attend worship every Lord's Day?

And more:

10. What do you believe God has called you to do vocationally? Ten years from now, what you believe you will be doing?
11. What steps have you taken to reach that goal?
12. What was your GPA in college? How come?
13. How much money did you make last year? Do you pay your bills on time? How much debt have you accumulated? Please describe the nature of your debts (student loans, car, house, credit cards, or expensive porn sites).

As you can see, many of them read like questions you would get in a job interview and, as such, the way they are handled may be as important as the answers you give. Still, the answers matter. They reveal something of your spiritual, personal and economic maturity -- all of which are necessary for leading a family.

Pastor Wilson also has a list of 21 questions for young men to ask "potential wives." Or at least, for young men to ask themselves about the objects of their affection. Wilson acknowledges that, unlike the suitor, the sought after are under no obligation to answer.

HT: Humble Beginnings and Between Two Worlds

So You Want to Court My Daughter by Motte Brown on 04/04/2007 at 1:20 PM

Pastor Doug Wilson, author of such books as Her Hand in Marriage and Reforming Marriage, provides a list of 21 questions for fathers to ask young men expressing interest in courting their daughters.

Here's a sample:

1. Tell me about your spiritual background. What was your church upbringing like? At what point did your spiritual experience become real to you? Have you ever had a period of spiritual rebellion?
2. When was the last time you read through the entire Bible? The New Testament?
3. Do you attend worship every Lord's Day?

And more:

10. What do you believe God has called you to do vocationally? Ten years from now, what you believe you will be doing?
11. What steps have you taken to reach that goal?
12. What was your GPA in college? How come?
13. How much money did you make last year? Do you pay your bills on time? How much debt have you accumulated? Please describe the nature of your debts (student loans, car, house, credit cards, or expensive porn sites).

As you can see, many of them read like questions you would get in a job interview and, as such, the way they are handled may be as important as the answers you give. Still, the answers matter. They reveal something of your spiritual, personal and economic maturity -- all of which are necessary for leading a family.

Pastor Wilson also has a list of 21 questions for young men to ask "potential wives." Or at least, for young men to ask themselves about the objects of their affection. Wilson acknowledges that, unlike the suitor, the sought after are under no obligation to answer.

HT: Humble Beginnings and Between Two Worlds

Comments

[1. Blair said the following at 1:29 PM on Apr 4:]

1

I read this article a couple of days ago and thought he listed some great questions. I do not have a father who would ask such questions but I can. Even if the guy being questioned does not have the perfect answer for every question it is a good way to see where he comes from and how he is growing. As a women it also made me think about how I would answer some of the questions and showed me some areas I can work on.

[2. Jake said the following at 2:29 PM on Apr 4:]

2

As soon as I saw this list a few days ago, I knew it would be posted on Boundless sooner or later.

I have to admit, reading this list put me off, because behind the bare words of the questions I can't help but hear an accusatory tone, as though they were being asked by a school principal who had a child sent to his office for misbehaving. It's very obvious that to most of them, there is a right answer and a wrong answer, and if you give the wrong one, the response is "stay away from my daughter." I wonder, does Wilson think so badly of men -- even professing Christian ones -- that he thinks we should all be interrogated? I admit, some of my discomfort stems from knowledge of my own sins and flaws (it's true, I don't read the Bible as much as I should, and my college GPA wasn't as good as it could have been) but these questions seem to be posed with a tone of "if you have to hesitate in the slightest before answering, don't even try, scum."

I think the attitude represented by these questions -- and the notion of a father asking them -- is one of a misplaced chivalry that isn't compatible with the rest of the modern world. I'll be the first to advocate a return to true traditional morality, in which men and women are not considered equal, girls are "given" in marriage, and because of their submissive position do require the protection of the men in their lives. I think our society would get on much better if things were that way. But those who advocate a chivalric, protection of the "weaker vessel" oriented approach to courtship never advocate such an approach being applied to society as a whole. Neither Doug Wilson nor Boundless, to my knowledge, say that women should stop going to college, should not prepare for careers, should not act or behave independently, but rather that their lives should revolve around being housewives and mothers. Unless you do advocate that, though, the notion of a father grilling his daughter's prospective suitors this way is just strangely out of place. I mean, there's something ludicrous about a man approaching a woman's father some Sunday afternoon about beginning a courtship with his daughter, and being interrogated with these questions ... and then the same daughter getting up Monday morning and going to work at her manager-level job where she has male employees reporting to her.

I'll say again that I advocate a return to traditional sex roles where women by and large are not in leadership positions, but rather remain in the home. But unless I'm living in such a world -- I'm sorry, I'm 30 years old, and if a girl's father asked me how much money I made last year or what my college GPA was, or said that he "needs to know" if I had any sexual escapades in high school before becoming a Christian, I WOULD have to say "mind your own business."

Of course, I can't imagine becoming involved with a girl who wanted her father to do this in the first place, and that brings me to a question: do advocates of this approach to courtship -- the man initiating by asking the girl's father rather than the girl herself, and the father then subjecting the man to a guilty-until-proven-innocent interrogation -- really think that it's something most Christians, even most conservative born-again Christians, buy into? I'd point out that for this approach to work, there need to be three people who believe in it: the young man, the father, and -- here's the kicker -- the girl herself. I attend a PCA church, and I can't imagine any families there even wanting to handle courtship this way. Certainly parents want to meet their kids boyfriends and girlfriends, and want their kids to get involved with other Christians who attend church and are living the Christian life, but I can't think of any Christians I've ever met -- and again, I'm talking conservative Bible-believers here, not liberal Christians -- buying into this system. So who are Doug Wilson and Boundless trying to reach? Do they think that lots of Christians out there want to do things this way and just need some guidance on how to go about it, are they trying to convince fellow conservative Christians of the value of it, or do they believe that anyone who doens't agree with father-directed, interrogation-based Biblical dating is an unregenerate heathen?

[3. John M. said the following at 2:38 PM on Apr 4:]

3

I would really hope the woman would have found out the the answers to all these before sending the guy to her father.

Also, can #10 be answered with a sincere "I don't know"?

[4. BDB said the following at 2:49 PM on Apr 4:]

4

"Wilson acknowledges that, unlike the suitor, the sought after are under no obligation to answer."

I almost choked on my coffee when I read that. Maybe because it was right below the part about bill-paying. Jokes about women and shopping aside, no man should propose to a woman who won't let him read her credit report, and vice-versa. Talk about a red flag.

I've always found it interesting that some people don't think it is appropriate to ask someone what they paid for their house. That information is public record and easily accessible for free on the Internet.

And yet I've perodically been surprised when some women are willing to tell me what they earn and how they pay their debts long before I'm comfortable bringing up the subject. Maybe they're bragging, I dunno...

Most of the questions are pretty normal stuff -- relationship with family, college experience, etc. You might not ask these things on a first date. But my guess is that if a woman took the 5th on all these questions, it's going to be a very short relationship.

[5. Katie said the following at 3:07 PM on Apr 4:]

5

I agree that these are some questions the girls should be thinking about, too. Some of them don't have to be asked "just so"... but a girl should certainly know the answers early on. In fact, another girl I know came up with a list of over 200 questions that she wanted answered early on in the relationship!

[6. Katie said the following at 3:08 PM on Apr 4:]

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I found the questions a guy should answer about a girl very interesting... and wondered how long it takes a guy to pick up on these kinds of things.

[7. Frank Hsueh said the following at 3:43 PM on Apr 4:]

7

I REALLY agree with Jake's comment [~].

Incidentally, the article doesn't reflect grace either (see Faith for the Man He'll Become [boundless]).

[8. Jen said the following at 3:47 PM on Apr 4:]

8

I guess the author wouldn't want his daughter to marry anyone like Jesus or the disciples, since they didn't have stable jobs or high GPAs.

[9. nikki said the following at 3:53 PM on Apr 4:]

9

Speaking to the suitor-to-lady string of questions...my thought is, I sure wouldn't want to court/date somebody if I didn't don't know them well enough to already be aware of the answers to *most* of those questions. If I didn't already know how someone treated their family, their parents, how committed they were to their local church body, their character in general...I wouldn't be thinking of dating them in the first place. Is that just me? Maybe it's just the "ideal" situation, to date someone you've already known and trusted...obviously not everyone has that luxury.

[10. Jethro said the following at 4:14 PM on Apr 4:]

10

If my potential father in law decided to ask me all of those questions I would consider he was doing me a great favor - because I would be certain that his family is one I would never want to marry into

[11. JenR said the following at 4:17 PM on Apr 4:]

11

After careful perusal of both lists, and being relieved to note that these questions (even for the men) are more conversation points than questions that must be answered "correctly" ("...not a wooden checklist."), there is still something about them that disturb me. Mostly, I think, the assumptions that go along with the questions (i.e. GPA in college -- yes, while I am a nerdy-dork who can't imagine not going to college, I know a great many of guys and gals my age who never went to college. And they are happily married, too. Besides, if we're asking questions about college, why not inquire as to how free time was spent during those college years? Keggers? Milk chugging contests? Poker games? Breaking into the science lab to see which chemicals make the coolest prank when put in the toilets on the girls floor? [Do we even dare ask if he went to a school that allows co-ed dorms?]).

While I think these questions would be a good basis for someone who wouldn't know what to ask (and I am going beyond "the father", because I know full well that often that role must be substituted by other[s]), I don't think they're the end-all. For example, the commentators on the original post ask why there aren't questions about drug use or alcoholism (yet at least four about sex) - something that would automatically be on my list to know about a guy.

Then again, perhaps my feathers are ruffled because I get the sensation I would answer "incorrectly" to the questions for the Prospective Wife (or I'd merely delight in the fact that I'm not "required" to answer them at all): i.e. I consider "domestic arts" a necessary evil, but I love to be hospitable even if all I have to offer is water and a seat on my well-worn hand-me-down sofa [#14]; I think sons (AND daughters) can be educated to any level they so choose (while I'm still undecided about a PhD, I'm not disallowing it for my children) [#16]; and yes, I love children and hope one day to be a SAHM, even though it can be argued that "feminism has gotten to me" [#15].

And does the Suitor really have to ask if the Prospective Wife is attractive to him? [#21] While I do realize that these are questions for a traditional courtship... if he's serious (and considering her to be his wife), then shouldn't he want to kiss the back of her neck?

Perhaps I'm taking these too seriously. Or I'm not taking courtship seriously enough. Clearly there needs to be some help for our generation in terms of relationships-that-lead-to-marriage (any dating/boy-girl relationship post is sure to generate many comments)... and these are decent guidelines...

...but only if they inspire conversation, and not merely "right" answers. I would treasure honesty over a perfect 4.0... and I hope my father would, too.

/rant

[I echo Katie's comment about grace. That Boundless article was in the back of mind when reading these questions]

[12. Jacob said the following at 4:25 PM on Apr 4:]

12

I am surprised at some of these responses. These are important questions that fathers, or surrogate fathers, who are involved in their daughters' lives have a right to ask. Further, I think some people are reading more into that list than is there (a flaw that many of us who leave comments here on The Line demonstrate regularly).
Straw man arguments are still bad arguments. If the woman is a godly Christian woman, she is worth having to answers these questions to her father. Further, I found, as a young single man, the list to be very helpful. It's a set of practical questions that can help me guage how prepared I am to enter into a marriage-oriented relationship. Praise God for those fathers who are willing to ask these questions, and praise God for those real men who are not afraid to answer them.
We all have the right to not tell someone something. However, are there not times when it is worth it to lay down that right for something better?

[13. Marci said the following at 4:26 PM on Apr 4:]

13

Hey All!

I found this a fascinating read! Some great points have been raised by posters, though, (ie. A lot of christian women I know would NOT be open to their fathers perfoming this kind of scrutiny on the men in their lives)...

BUT...I must acknowledge that back in the days when fathers made it their business to find out detailed information about the backgrounds of suitors, the divorce rate was WAY lower! My father would be willing to question a man in this way, and I would be willing to allow him to (though I realize that not everyone's in the same situation, so this model won't neccessarily work for everyone).

I do, however, agree with John M - the woman should find out this information! I've always been appalled when women don't ask important questions that sift out a guys spiritual, financial, and emotional state - I would think such questions should come in the first few months of the relationship, when people expect that they are being assessed. Of course, their are tactful ways of finding out if a quy is a spendthrift, if he's with me cus he thinks I'm the bank, if he serves God wholeheartedly, if he respects his folks...I have a strict 'first few conversations' policy. In the first few conversations, I ask about a guys spiritual status/walk with the Lord, his ministry, his education level, his career goals, and if he has kids. The maturity with which he handles these questions and the honesty and thoroughness of his answers determine whether I will give him a date or not (yes, that's right! I don't intend to be surpised and end up on a date with a man of few scruples and have my name and character tarnished by association!). So these convo's take place in person at venues we're at in groups or on the phone, etc. So far, this method is working like a charm! I have weeded out one bad apple after anther - guys who lacked direction, weren't interested in ministry *at all*, even though they claimed to be Christians, men who never planned to tell me till we got into a relationship that they had kids, men who were *terrible* with money (yes, you'd be surprised what people let out when they think certain behaviors are 'normal'!)...and I'm now with a wonderful Christian, godly man and my parents fully support the union!

Ok, I got side tracked...but I do agree with BDB - women ABSOLUTELY should be prepared to be interrogated on similar questions as well! I do know a few women who got into rediculous amounts of debt to 'stay in fashion' so they could 'catch a hot Christian man' with STUDENT LOAN MONEY! And I know women who have racked up consumer debt on credit cards, and figure they'll start paying off the $10,000 owed 'sometime before they say 'I do' -hopefully' ....Men should absolutely query women on their credit scores - and see their credit report as well - and their walks with the Lord, etc...

I know some people disagree with me, but an apparently *strong* christian walk does not make up for a lack of financial reponsibility in my books! I actually broke up with a guy who wanted to marry me because his irresponsibility in this area was becomming increasingly apparent, and he wasn't making strides to correct his loose spending and clear up credit card debt. I've always said: I would rather be with a man who made $30,000 Canadian a year who was responsible with his money than a man who made $60,000 a year and was irresponsible with his earnings.

Also BDB: have you considered that the some women might be volunteering personal information about their finances so you will open up about yours? I have some good friends who are responsible with their money, and want to know that any man who they think may have marriage potential is responsible with his as well, and one of them actually uses this tactic to try to find out if the guy has his stuff together, or if he's not there yet and she should move on lol. While you're wondering if they're bragging, my guess is probably not lol - their fishing!

And men, while our world doesn't seem to value the domestic arts, it's no fun being married to a woman who is the envy of all your friends but can't keep a house clean, is not hospitable, and can't cook! This is not to say that men should have no skills in this area (the man I'm courting is an excellent cook and can clean and the whole nine yards), but make sure you don't pick up a pretty girl who has not taken the time to cultivate these useful arts. I'm not trying to advocate the idea that women should stay home and have kids only - I think such matters are personal choice, but I do think looking for these basic things in both sexes is helpful...(In my case, I wanted a guy who could do the same things I could in this department so, heaven forbid, if something were to happen to me, he would be able to help practicaly with all these things).

Ok, I'm going to stop lol

Blessings to you all!

[14. Chris Krycho said the following at 4:29 PM on Apr 4:]

14

I think these sorts of questions do have a place, even in situations where a more formalized courtship is not expected to happen. I sent these to my dad, who is still little "weirded out" so to speak about the notion of going back to courtship, and he really liked the questions. They're the sorts of questions you might ask as the guy is trying to involve him and the family more. Even if you're going with a more traditional modern approach of just asking permission to marry her, these are good things that the dad would bring up in that conversation.

(Side note: Jake, I don't know where you're at, but the number of girls I know where I am here who very much want guys to be pursuing them in a way that's at least close to a "courtship" model might surprise you from the sounds of things. I don't necessarily expect to sit down with a girl's father and having him grill me before we ever go on a date; but I do expect that, circumstances allowing it, he and her mother will be very involved in the relationship; and he will be in a position of oversight. I hope that he will be the kind of man who would ask these kinds of questions, because that's the kind of man I pray I will have as a father-in-law. If it's not to be, then I'm fine with that, but that is my prayer. Don't assume that just because it's alien to your church community/region, it is everywhere. ;) )

I do agree that the woman should be - at least by some point in the relationship - obligated to answer some of those questions. Financial integrity ought to be well established, for example; and I do believe you have a right to know about each others' sexual history before proposal, and so forth. (It's not trivial, for example, to know that you might be risking an STI by marrying the person because of their history. That's not a place of lacking grace, per se, unless dealt with wrongly; but simply of wisdom.)

As for the accusation of an overall lack of grace, I don't see this - and I'm pretty sure Boundless and Pastor Wilson don't either - as a laundry list of things that have to be fulfilled perfectly for the father to say yes; but rather as a guide. If the suitor mostly meets this and is clearly striving to excel in his faith and in these areas, then why a problem? For example, if his GPA wasn't the best but he's now working hard and supporting himself and eliminating debt, then the old is outweighed by the new, and so on. You can take any such list and make it legalistic... but a much healthier approach is to simply treat them as "more like guidelines than actual rules."

[15. Bethany said the following at 4:34 PM on Apr 4:]

15

The tone of the questions aimed at the guys does seem to be much more true-false and adversarial than the questions for asking the girls. However, I think a lot would depend on the manner in which they are asked. If asked by a caring father, rather than a harsh judge, it would go over much better and the answers would be very illuminating. 2.5 years ago when my now-fiance sat down with me and my parents to officially ask my parents for permission to court me, they didn't use a question set quite this long or detailed, but they did ask about areas of his life like church experiences, personal faith, vocational calling, why he was attracted to me, etc. For me, that was an incredible experience of seeing how my parents really were looking out for my best interests - and an awesome experience of seeing him shine!

"Wilson acknowledges that, unlike the suitor, the sought after are under no obligation to answer." This part is where I differ with Pastor Wilson's attitude. As the pursued, more fragile females, it seems reasonable that women are not obligated to answer these questions at the START of the courtship -- but the men should certainly have the right to ask for whatever information they have not been able to gather on their own before they consider proposing marriage. Sometimes appearances don't show the whole picture of what a person is like; large student loans or credit problems don't often come up in casual conversation, and past sexual sins or hurts can be especially difficult for guys to 'mind read'. Defrauding our brothers is something that women should not take lightly, and Pastor Wilson's lopsided flow of information has a danger of producing just that "buyer beware" situation.

[16. Ben said the following at 4:34 PM on Apr 4:]

16

I think everyone has missed the point. These are suggested questions that help a father get to know the man who is seeking to initiate a relationship with his daughter. There may be a "right and wrong answer" but the weight of those answers are up to the father to determine. A father full of grace and Christlikeness will see the heart and path more than the exact answers. I would hope that the father of any girl I would choose to pursue would ask these same questions to me. Admittedly some are kind of scary, but I would rather be honest and open then secretive and dishonest. The initiate a relationship with a girl by seeking permission from her father first and his questions of me were very similar to these and I was honored by his intent in finding out more about me and my intentions. Plus, I was even more honored when he permitted me to pursue his daughter even with my faults exposed. He saw who I was to become not who I was at that moment.

[17. Laura said the following at 5:03 PM on Apr 4:]

17

I must say I completely agree with Marci! I can understand that the questions would be a little daunting from a guys perspective, but think about it -- men are the head of the household, not women. Therefore, I will be under my father's authority until the day I marry (and I understand that this situation doesn't apply for everyone, just bear with me), so obviously my father is going to want to make sure he's letting me marry a godly young man who's got his head on straight.
It's also important that we girls should know the answers to most of the questions before we agree to go out with them, and vice versa. This would reduce alot of heartbreak and frustrated relationships!
All in all, I totally support the father's right to question any potential suitor of his daughter (the questions may vary from father to father) and encourage all the guys out there not to be put off -- I'm sure you'll be doing it one day for your daughters!!!

[18. Bethany said the following at 5:07 PM on Apr 4:]

18

I'm a bit surprised by some (many?) of the responses. Why is it such a horrible thing for a girl's dad to ask the guy questions? Regarding a pursued woman's right to silence, I don't think the author was encouraging women not to talk to a guy with whom they're pursuing a relationship. The fact is that he's the pursuer and she's the pursued, which may mean that he'll make himself vulnerable before she does herself.

[19. BDB said the following at 5:19 PM on Apr 4:]

19

>>Also BDB: have you considered that the some women might be volunteering personal information about their finances so you will open up about yours? <<

Oh, I absolutely think they're fishing. Conveniently, I work in finance, so I'm well-matched for that kind of conversation.

But I tend to steer the conversation back towards how money is managed. He who is faithful in small things will be faithful in large ones. Income changes so much over the course of a career. It's very short-sighted to focus on top-line earnings if they're spending more than they earn on entertainment. Discussions about giving to the church and other charities are also important to have early. People who don't give do indeed seem to spend more money on entertainment. From the outside, it looks like more "fun," but it also shows where their priorities are.

The questions are also kind of amusing for an older person.

"If I went to your apartment, what would I find?"

Well, sir, I don't own any apartment complexes. My 401(k) only has investing options for equities and bond funds, though I'd like to see a REIT investment option.

OH! -- You mean how often does the landscaper come by? My apologies -- once every two months, except in the winter ... I mow the lawn myself...

But if someone did decide to challenge me, I can easily pull up my own credit report. And she could pull up hers for me at the same time, at this link:

https://www.econsumer.equifax.com/consumer/sitepage.ehtml?forward=cps_detail

I recommend the Equifax "score power" report. It gives you your FICO score, the one you need when buying a house or car. They also tailor to your credit report some really good tips on how to improve your score. The most important is to pay your bills on time and reduce credit card debt. The report forces you to face the reality of your spending choices. It's also VERY satisfying to watch the score creep up as you pay off the credit cards.

(Disclosure: I make absolutely no commission for recommending them!)

[20. Charles H. said the following at 5:24 PM on Apr 4:]

20

Aside from Boundless' emphasis on courtship, is there anything that makes this list more applicable to courtship than dating? I've been asked every one of these in relationships, and some of them (1, 3, 4, 5, 7, 10, 11) are things I assume I'll be asked on the first or second date.

With that said, some of these questions are more applicable to relationships than others. On-the-job morale correlates poorly with earning potential (ask an intern or a law student at a candid moment!), and the presence or absence of siblings doesn't indicate much to me. College GPA is important if the suitor is a student but gradually becomes irrelevant. (I'm 28 -- I think I've atoned suitably for my B in organic chemistry? =)

Marci, I'm a little puzzled by your comment about "men who aren't interested in ministry at all, though they claim to be Christians." We have to remember that not all men are called to the ministry -- even in the Old Testament, the Levites were but one of the twelve Israelite tribes. I suspect you mean various lay positions as well, but even then, I don't think one can infer lack of faith from their absence.

[21. Shazia said the following at 5:36 PM on Apr 4:]

21

Hi I am new here but I am often lack the motivation to write anything but I tend to read a lot of what is here. I was reading the counterpart link to this blog about 21 Questions for a Prospective Wife and it gave me a knot in my stomach because while some of the questions are very good, some of them would inevitably disqualify me from being a prospective wife at all, and that bothers me alot. Especially knowing that my heart aches to be a loving wife someday.

For example, I was not brought up in the Christian faith but now that I am grown up in my 20s, (I am a 27 year old female) I am very interested in becoming a Christian and am aspiring to do so, but doing so would mean that my family would likely disown me. My mom comes from a Christian background but "converted" to her husband's faith when she married him and even though I am not a follower of my father's faith, my father and his family would disown me, most likely, if they found out that I forsee myself becoming a Christian. I have only one sibling, my brother, who would side with my dad. My mother's side of the family just doesn't have the interest to keep in touch. Hence I am on my own. That means that I would fail questions #1, 3, 4, and probably 9. I don't really have bad relationships with my brother or dad but when it comes to religion, they become different people.

Other than that, I am a very traditional lady, a sweet person, who loves children, believes in saving it for marriage, but these questions make me feel as if I am a lousy candidate for marriage. Above everything else, I do feel as if I should be spiritually ready for marriage and that would be my first priority when it comes to considering marriage. But if questions like 1, 3, 4 and 9 are commonplace questions in determining whether I am noteworthy wife material, I feel like such a reject.

I hope I'm not flamed for this or anything. I guess I'm too sensitive when it comes to these things...:(

[22. Shazia said the following at 5:37 PM on Apr 4:]

22

By the way, when I was referring to question numbers, I was referring to the questions in the link "21 questions for young men to ask potential wives." Not the questions in the main blog article.

[23. ethan said the following at 5:38 PM on Apr 4:]

23

It's not horrible for a dad to ask questions but to have a list is insulting to the guy. If my father in law had asked me all those questions I would have answered them and I would have asked him the same questions back and I don't think he would have liked it.

Most of those questions are pointed and leading with an unstated assumption that it is up to the suitor to prove himself. These would be a whole lot better received prior to engagement but not prior to dating/courtship.

That is from a guys perspective but in 20 years if God gives me daughters I just might rethink this :-) (though I know several dads who have scared of potential suitors with this kind of behaviors)

[24. Jonathan from Canada said the following at 5:39 PM on Apr 4:]

24

I think if a guy can't stand a little judgment and adversary, he's pretty much a wimp who doesn't deserve to get married to an upstanding girl. Lay it out. Take some attacks and stick up for your past. At that point you get a good view of what her father is like. Does he forgive? Does he have unrealistic expectations? Is he gentle? Chances are, she won't be too unlike her father.

[25. ethan said the following at 5:43 PM on Apr 4:]

25

p.s. my wife says she doesn't like the questions at all. Unless you are applying for the CIA :-)

[26. Abby said the following at 5:46 PM on Apr 4:]

26

Hey guys first lets put this out. I've met Doug Wilson on several occasions and in fact my best friend is his great niece.

Some thing that I think is really important to culturally understand about the area that he (and I) live, in two small towns out in the middle of nowhere with a state university in each. This makes for the GPA thing to be important because there is a ton of binge drinking (WSU is normally in the top party schools) and that is a major reason that some college students have low grades. Nowhere in the question does it say that a low GPA is an automatic no, it just means that the circumstances are a little questionable, were they out parting or do they not have enough dedication to a project to see it though and what will that mean for my daughter. I highly doubt that he would be upset if the answer was "Not a high as I would of hoped but I studied a lot and by the grace of God I graduated."

And then this is just me. What kind of guys think that this is not a good thing for their (possible) future bride's father to care? Would you not want to grill any guy your little sister went out with? Do you not understand that as annoying is and I'm sure I'll have to go though the female version that it is way that the father(/family) makes sure that she's not being swept away by her emotions and marrying a real jerk. And it not like they want this to happen instantly, but instead after a girl has become serious about a guy and of course they want the couple to get to know each other.
My two cents

[27. Darin said the following at 6:00 PM on Apr 4:]

27

I don't have any skeletons in my closet...so (aside from the confrontational nature of the author's suggested approach) I would be delighted to answer all of those questions. On the other hand, I've known some smooth talking casanovas (i.e. seasoned liars) who would be more than delighted to answer those questions as well.

It seems to me that a more effective (and friendly) approach would be to take it in stages. First ask a few very general questions such as; "What are your intentions?" "How would you describe your relationship with God?" "What qualities do you see in my daughter that you want to court her?"

More questions could be introduced IN A TACTFUL WAY during the courtship process. These questions would be asked in a spirit of caring about the young man and wanting to know him better. For example: "Tell me about your family." "Oh, that's too bad about your parents divorce...what did you learn from it?"

Some questions (especially the more personal ones) would probably be better handled by a pastor. (I'm of the belief that pre-engagement counseling is better than counseling after engagement when minds are already made up.) I can see situations where revealing past sin to a future father/mother in-law could create big problems. (It should be sufficient that a pastoral counselor and the couple themselves know about it.)

It almost appears like the author of the article is attempting to turn the courtship into an engagement and replace pastoral counseling with an interrogation.

At points, I get the feeling that the author has a real chip on his shoulder when it comes to single men. (Some of his questions have a sarcastic tone to them.) Unless he phrased his questions a bit more respectfully I would probably call him on it.

I also find the article peculiar in light of the problem (which Boundless is forever speaking of) that guys are afraid to initiate. Is it supposed to make a guy feel more secure, knowing that a confrontational interrogation by the girl's father awaits him???

In conclusion, I agree that all of those 21 questions need to be answered...but I think that the author's "interrogation" approach (and his attitude) is a bit over the edge.

[28. Jay said the following at 6:10 PM on Apr 4:]

28

The key phrase in these posts:
"You can take any such list and make it legalistic"

That's what makes these sort of things dangerous. If we christians can make something legalistic, we'll do it in a heartbeat! Just remember to add a little charity & wisdom to the list!

[29. Brooke said the following at 6:16 PM on Apr 4:]

29

Interesting questions...But I don't think that one needs mostly positive answers in order to ensure a good relationship or marriage. Looking at the questions my husband and I would both fail miserably (ie. I'm not so good in the "domestic arts," work a job that often requires working weekends, he had some debt, was not raised in a Christian home, etc) However, we are married very happily, serve in volunteer ministry, and live for the Lord.

[30. Keb said the following at 6:54 PM on Apr 4:]

30

While definitely the questions point to important components of a good relationship, I suspect the *right* answers are not nearly as important as compatible answers. I see no reason why a woman who hates cooking should not marry a man who loves to cook -- and trade that domestic duty for some other duty that she favors over him. I know for myself I want to be a stay at home mom someday, but I also hate cleaning. And I cannot see any reason against a stay at home Dad, if his personality and his wife`s fit that way. I think it matters a lot more that the couple be complementary than that they each fit an ideal.

That said...it does seem really odd to expect my father to interrogate potential suitors so entirely when I am already 27 and currently living on my own. Mind you, I certainly would ask his advice a lot (I run to him all the time for advice, though his answers tend to be frustratingly void of opinions) and he probably would have plenty of questions for the poor guy, but the formal courtship structure that is being proposed just seems unnatural for women who are unmarried beyond college, and even for many less dependent women in college. It probably seems just as strange to the guys of our age, who are also used to independence.

There has to be some middle ground.

[31. Kev said the following at 6:59 PM on Apr 4:]

31

Here's the thing (and it probably relates to the grace issue others have raised):

As a single male, I'd be interested to know the GPA, credit score, and premarital sexual history of the father grilling me.

Goose, meet gander.

Frankly, these questions become less compulsory the older the single female becomes. If a girl is 21, I could understand an investigative & protective tone. Less so at 31. In fact, if the father so questions the judgment of his adult daughter, I'd question how much parenting I'm going to have to do with my future spouse.

41? Forget it. The questions better come off as curiosity, otherwise the girl doesn't have the gift of singleness but the curse of an intrusive and growth-stunting father.

[32. KJ said the following at 7:54 PM on Apr 4:]

32

I think some people are missing the point here -- by examining every jot and tittle of every question, we're missing the larger picture, that of dads wanting to know pertinent information about potential future sons-in-law.

My boyfriend met with my dad for lunch a few days after he expressed an interest in pursuing a relationship with me. (I'm in my mid 20's, by the way.) I don't know what exactly they discussed, but I know that a major function of the whole meeting was to confirm a lot of pre-existing common sense. My dad knows I wouldn't send just any old loser to visit him. And most losers walking around out there would hedge on the concept of meeting with a girl's dad. The very fact that the meeting took place was mainly a confirmation of those presuppositions. I doubt very much that it was a scorching interview.

If you want to see some daunting interrogation tactics, go read "Dad's Daughter" at nogreaterjoy.org ...

[33. Darin said the following at 8:12 PM on Apr 4:]

33

Another way to approach the questions on the list is for single guys and gals to volunteer the information up front instead of putting the other person in the awkward position of having to ask. (This is what I prefer to do.)

Also, I want to clarify something from my last comment. I'm not actually accusing the author of "the list" of being a sarcastic person. (It could be that the sarcasm was simply humor that didn't translate well to the written page (i.e. in the absence of non-verbal clues). I was simply stating what it appeared like to me when taken at face value.

[34. Chris Krycho said the following at 8:27 PM on Apr 4:]

34

Charles H. -- I think there's a difference (that's she's assuming inherently) between being in a ministry and being in ministry. One can be not involved in any particular "ministry" but still ministering. If the guy is simply wanting to go through life and have a good job and a nice home, but not interested in ministering -- whatever that looks like -- then he's not really following the Scriptures. Everyone should be in ministry. I don't see any exceptions to Matthew 28:19-20. We're all called equally to be making disciples -- and that's about more than just "living our lives for God," though that's certainly a part of it. That means investing in people's lives, intentionally sharing the gospel through both relationships and simple proclamation (and I mean actually sharing it, not using "relational evangelism" as a cover for never actually speaking the truth of the gospel), giving sacrificially, and so forth. A Godly woman has the right to expect those things in her husband. It is precisely a lack of faith, or a lack of discipline, that would lead to the absence of ministry in that sense in one's life.

God bless!

[35. DanL said the following at 8:43 PM on Apr 4:]

35

Random thoughts in no particular order:
1) Many of these questions seem appropriate to ask before a couple decides to get married, but Wilson’s post seem to be about asking them before any form of courtship (Wilson presumably not approving of “dating”) begins. I’m not sure all questions are appropriate at this time.
2) In particular I really do not like the idea of asking a man’s income right from the get go. The Where’s the Motivation Guys thread had a lot of talk about undue influence being placed on a man’s finances, and this question by Wilson seem to illustrate where such concerns originate. Yes a man is supposed to provide for his family, but this should be determinable from watching him. Asking his income level seems more along lines of wondering how often he will be able to take his family to Europe on vacation.
3) Debt is a relevant issue, but I still wonder if this is too early to address it. I actually had a lady ask about my debts once on a first date, although not very directly. I was in graduate school at the time and she remarked that I must have had to take out a lot of loans to stay in school so long. I simply remarked that my research assistantship paid for all my tuition and gave me a stipend to live off of and left it at that. I could have said that I was debt free having taken out no loans as either an undergraduate or a graduate, but I didn’t want to appear as bragging. So should I have said more?
4) I also agree with Chris Krycho that sexual histories are relevant, but again I think its too early in the relationship (relationship may not even be the right work in the context of man approaching a women’s father who has presumably not said yet). Without asking any questions of this sort, I once had a lady to confess to some past mistakes in her history after only a single date, and felt horrible that she would feel any need to reveal that at that point. (FWIW, it’s the same lady I mentioned in the Why Not Live Together? thread. (I also know that was the first date she had had in seven years, so I wonder if she was havening some problems with excessive guilt). I do think a good case can be made that a woman has a right to know sooner than a man, so maybe this is appropriate to ask right from the beginning. I’m not sure.
5) The absence of any questions about men experience with or desire for children seemed rather conspicuous.
6) As other have point out, I don’t like the way Wilson assumes that any qualified male well necessarily have attended college in question 12.
7) I would really hope that a young woman would know the answers to many of these questions before ever expressing any interest in him. The one about attending church regularly, in particular, is one that should not need to be asked. But then I am frequently shocked at the men some women choose to date.
8) I really don’t know who this hole going though the women’s father thing is supposed to work. With only one exception, every woman I’ve ever asked out has been living in another city at the time (and the one exception turned me down). There has only been one woman that I’ve had more than one date with. In that case we did take a couple trips to a nearby state to visit her parents. I wondered at the time if I should ask her father then, but he seemed to welcome me very much so it didn’t really seem necessary. We did spend a fair amount of time talking and getting to know each other, but I never thought I was being quizzed or interviewed. He never asked me any questions that sounded like they belonged o this list, but end the he end he probably did get much of the same information (he forgot to ask my salary though). I guess I don’t like this list because he seems to be about the father making up his mind about the young man as quickly and efficiently as possible rather than taking the time to get to know him. This may stem from the fact that I don’t really buy into the ask the father before you and the young woman to anything at all mindset. Especially when fathers and daughters live in different parts of the country, the father needs to trust his daughter’s judgment. By all means when his daughter starts going out with one he should work at getting to know him to help _confirm_ his daughter’s thoughts about him, but he shouldn’t immediately second guess them.

[36. Jonathan from Canada said the following at 9:24 PM on Apr 4:]

36

Shazia, I admire you for your comments. Please don't give up. God will bless you for making the tough choices that so many of us never have to make. He will give you strength if you ask for it.

As for this courting test, the questioner should probably not be looking for particular answers but for the reasoning behind answers. Looking at this like a test to be scored out of 21 is simply wrong.

For example, the college question. Maybe someone didn't go to college. Should that be a point off? No. The majority of men don't go to college. And plenty of people have low GPAs. There are some good reasons and some bad ones. Even if the questions are "not the business" of the father, why not just answer them for fun.

[37. Chris Krycho said the following at 10:01 PM on Apr 4:]

37

Shazia -

Please don't take any condemnation from this list! To the contrary, it's not meant as a slam on those who, for whatever reason, don't have the benefit of those things. The answers to those questions are to help get a feel for any possible problems. (And a guy should know if his in-laws are going to be a huge problem, or indeed simply absent as might be the case for some circumstances). Certainly neither I nor most of the guys you'll see around here would ever reject you simply because your family is where it is. Indeed, a woman who had chosen Christ even in the face of opposition from family would rank very highly for me, though I would understand that it would cause a certain amount more difficulty. So please, please don't feel any condemnation! You have little or no control over some of those (indeed, the only one you can control is whether you go to church, and I definitely encourage you to do that). No Godly man of the sort you'd want to marry would hold those things out of your control against you.

I pray you do take the step of accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior! You could make no better choice, and I pray that you will have strength to do what you must even in the face of the disapproval of your family; I can't imagine what that is like. I do know that it's worth it, though - worth any price, even our lives. I will continue to pray for you. Thanks for sharing with us a bit, for being vulnerable. :-)

God bless!

[38. Maggie said the following at 10:08 PM on Apr 4:]

38

Shazia, you wrote:
"I was reading the counterpart link to this blog about 21 Questions for a Prospective Wife and it gave me a knot in my stomach because while some of the questions are very good, some of them would inevitably disqualify me from being a prospective wife at all, and that bothers me alot. Especially knowing that my heart aches to be a loving wife someday."

I know exactly how you feel as that was my initial reaction as well. I am 26 from a non-Christian and very dysfunctional family and sometimes I feel like this will disqualify me from ever marrying a "good Christian guy" and in addition to this, I have a wild past, as I did not become a Christian until a few years ago.

That said, I don't think the list is intended to "disqualify" people with the wrong background. Any man who is considering marrying me will know me well enough to know that I have walked away from my old life and been forgiven by the blood of Christ, and will know how my heart breaks for my family. My future husband (whoever he be!) and I will have to deal with my past, of course, and that won't be easy. As to questions about family relationships, I would say they are more about observing how you treat those close to you, e.g., do you constantly bicker with family, are you rude to them or do you serve them graciously. If there are extenuating circumstances like yours, that should certainly not mean that you are not a "suitable" wife. So, take heart!

Shazia, my heart goes out to you because it seems like you are wrestling with some significant decisions. Choosing to follow a Christian life will not always be easy; in fact, as you know, it will sometimes mean signifant sacrifices. This does not mean, however, that it is not worth it. On the contrary, it is life "to the fullest." God bless.

[39. Andrew said the following at 10:20 PM on Apr 4:]

39

“Why is it such a horrible thing for a girl's dad to ask the guy questions?”

Most of these questions can be covered either before or during the dating/courtship period, provided each party is honest and is willing to communicate openly. Contemporary society actively discourages parental questioning of and/or involvement in young adult life. Fathers are especially vulnerable to this exclusion.

Nevertheless, the father has no right to forsake his biblical mandate to nurture his children. Sadly, too many fathers has violated the principles of Eph 6:4 (“Fathers, do not exasperate your children”) and Col 3:21 (“Fathers, do not embitter your children”).

I’ve seen this by fathers who (a) actively favour one sibling, (b) allow the mother to make all parenting decisions, (c) belittle, humiliate, degrade or ignore one siblings achievements, (d) avoid parenting responsibilities through work, hobbies or even voluntary service at community organisations like Scouting.

Doubtless all the parents here will remind me how hard parenting is. I have no doubt that it is hard. But some fathers do passively allow their daughters to be emotionally damaged through avoiding and abrogating their responsibilities.

There is the scriptural admonition to “respect your parents” to consider. All of us are flawed people. But the continuance of parental authority would have to be questioned where neglect has scarred a daughters heart and strained familial relationships.

Some posted comments give another perspective on this. Where the parents are not church adherents, role models will be lacking. Both may not know what values and behaviours a husband and wife ought to aspire to. This is a difficult place to start from and I encourage men and women not to lose heart. Where a healthy parental influence is absent, I would hope that couples will study and seek out mentoring for their relationship.

Finally, where the daughter has moved away from the family to escape a toxic parental relationship, I would have to question the parents continuing to have authority over the child. Why should they be permitted such given the existing emotional damage they’ve caused? Assuming everyone is still on speaking terms (and not just exchanging Christmas cards at 100 paces), asking for parental blessing of the union prior to marriage may be more appropriate.

It tears at my heart to see the damage caused to God’s children by parents who fail to realise the consequences of their actions. I pray for wisdom everyday that if I become a parent I will exercise authority wisely, lest I become responsible for causing my children to stumble or fall through my flawed influence on their lives.

Thoughtfully,

[40. Darin said the following at 10:45 PM on Apr 4:]

40

Shazia, let me begin by saying that your courage is amazing. Scripture tells us that we must be willing to leave father, mother, son or daughter to follow after Christ...yet few people here in the United States ever have to make that kind of sacrifice for their faith. You are a rare gem.

In regards to the questions that you are concerned about, I don't see them as disqualifying you in the least. These are situations that were beyond your control.

I think that the important question to consider is how you are dealing with those issues...and it sounds like you are dealing with them very courageously. Another important step in the process of dealing with those issues is to develop a support network.

When you accept Christ, you are adopted into the family of God. You have brothers and sisters in Christ and spiritual parents (or mentors) to help you through the difficulties of life. Do you have a church family? If not, perhaps the Boundless staff could help you to locate one in your area. (I'm sure they would be delighted to if you ask them.)

The other thing to remember is that Christ is there to lead you through your difficult times, heal your hurts and forgive your sins. There's no need to "clean ourselves up" before approaching him because "cleaning us up" is his job. We can't do it on our own. (He can even help you to deal with the family issues that you are facing.)

So, please don't feel like you've been disqualified by your family background or anything else. Christ is the one who qualifies us and he's bigger than all 21 of the questions on that list combined.

God bless and thank you for your participation.

[41. xeres said the following at 11:26 PM on Apr 4:]

41

I can related to your pain, maggie. Although I didn't lived a "wild life",I came with a difficult history. I often feel like I don't have what it takes to be a wife. However, those are feelings and no one is an unwanted fruit. It's hard to keep thinking that way when Satan will use our bad histories as a weapon.

[42. Cathy in NOLA said the following at 1:38 AM on Apr 5:]

42

Some have commmented on the appropriateness of some of these questions very early in the relationship (most recently DanL). The whole idea is to know as much about a suitor as possible before there is any kind of attachment. People vary in what will be a deal-breaker. A girl who has kept herself pure will likely find it very difficult to find a man who is, too. She may not be willing to go forward in a relationship with that kind of baggage. If you only make enough to barely live on, that should be known right off the bat, too. Why bother intentionally pursuing someone with marriage in mind if you can't support a wife and children? Romance and mystery are fun but honesty is worth infinitely more.

As to knowing about a person from church, I think we'd all be surprised at how little we really know others b/c we don't ask such direct questions. As for letting the pastor do the asking, frankly, in a courtship situation, that's not his job. The father is the one in authority and answerable to God for who he transfers that authority to. Unless there's something tremendously wrong with his relationship with his daughter, a pastor's care cannot substitute for a father's love and wisdom.

For those who would like a more fleshed-out view of Wilson's courtship idea, read his book, "Her Hand in Marriage." "Future Men" is also excellent when determining what kind of man you want your son to be (or your daughter to marry).

[43. Irene M. said the following at 6:23 AM on Apr 5:]

43

Two quick questions: why are only men responsible for asking these questions? I could understand if both sets of parents or both sets of fathers asked the potential couple or the potential couple asked eached other, but it seems odd that one is given by a parent and the other is given by a suitor. It's not consistent and has some sexist implications.

Also, on the "21 questions for young men", what does it spiritually and emotionally mean if a woman answers no to rule #5? "Does she have a close relationship with her dad? With her mom?"

[44. Justin said the following at 8:25 AM on Apr 5:]

44

These are all questions that would be answered in the course of a relationship.

But you don't just sit down and fire off these questions right off the bat. It's called the "getting to know each other" process.

[45. me said the following at 8:30 AM on Apr 5:]

45

Irene M: You asked: "Two quick questions: why are only men responsible for asking these questions?"

I was also wondering this -- I've been reading Boundless for a while and I've been trying to figure out their beliefs in this area.

The way I understand it, Boundless believes that a woman must obey her father until she is married (and she then must obey her husband). Because a woman is under her father's authority until she's married, her father must give her permission to date any man. This is why it makes sense for the father to ask these questions.

On the other hand, Boundless does not believe that unmarried men are under the authority of their parents. Because unmarried men are permitted to make their own decisions in the courtship realm, they can ask the questions themselves.

If I'm wrong here, I would appreciate some input ... but the beliefs I just outlined are the logical conclusion of what's been advocated in this article (and others), so I don't see how Boundless could *not* hold them.

[46. Dan said the following at 9:32 AM on Apr 5:]

46

Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more.

I hope that is true in my life and perhaps future spouse's life someday.

[47. Marci said the following at 9:39 AM on Apr 5:]

47

Charles H,

I understand why you're puzzled -- I should've elaborated! I think all Christians are called to some form of ministry. I don't believe that the only qualified ministries are in my home church only, either -- I'm quite open to a man telling me that he volunteers at a shelter somewhere, or is involved in mentoring with youth at a community center, etc. I'm very open to a man who also helps prepare snacks for junior church and is consistent, or helps out with AV equiptment at church lol -- as you can see from the types of positions/roles I've listed, my desire that a man be in ministry is not about getting a man who is in the often more lauded and ministries of pastor, bishop, etc.

The *point* for me is that as Christians, we are given lots of teaching and people are constantly pouring into our lives so we grow spiritually stronger. And there comes a point in all of our lives when we become so full, so spiritually fat, that if we do not give back and work our spiritual muscles, we will become spiritually obese because of our inactivity.

A spiritually obese man is not the man I desire as my husband! For me, and man MUST have reached this point of giving back; to be honest, I think it's also a natural response that grows out of our thankfulness to God for all he,and the mentors he's sent in our paths, have invensted into us! And any ministry will do, as long as he feels called to it, is committed to it, and is genuinely trying to grow in it -- all the while being open to when God may lead him towards other areas of ministry, whether new, or deeper in the one he's currently involved in.

I hope this helps! And responses are, as always, welcome..

Blessings to you!

[48. Shazia said the following at 9:49 AM on Apr 5:]

48

To answer Darin's question: I have a potential church family (that is, I have a church in mind), but since I am living with my parents right now (even though I am 27), my father would really be mad with me if he found out that I was going to church. (He comes from a Muslim background, even though it makes me uncomfortable to admit this somehow -- and I am really uncomfortable with his relatives ever finding out that I do not want to be Muslim).... It's really hard to keep him from being suspicious of what I am doing if I all of a sudden decide on a Sunday morning, for each week, that I'm going to "go somewhere." I did graduate from college a bit later than most (when I was 25) and it was really hard for me to get a job even though I was in a good field because the market in my area was tight and I ended up getting this temp job about a year later, which lasted for about 6 months, and now I am seeking something more permanent because it's really hard for me to living in a non-Christian home where being a Christian would feel oppressive. The problem is that deep down in my heart I do not care to be this independent woman, living alone in my own apartment, feeling lonely, and hoping that I don't have to live that way my whole life unmarried.

I understand that Boundless agrees that a woman lives under her father's authority until she is married and it is the father who gives approval for the man who courts the daughter. Maybe Boundless would understand that some situations are not conducive to this opinion held by Boundless. For instance, how can the woman's father be involved if the woman's father is not Christian and forbids his daughter to either be Christian or marry one? Obviously someone else must be involved on the woman's side, but what if she does not have family on her side that will support choice for a Christian man?

As far as finding a church, that is always something in my mind but as long as I am living under the authority of my father, the possibility of going to church without him suspecting is slim to none. It hurts very much on a weekend because I would like to meet more friends. I have two good friends right now. But one of them moved away last year to a far away state, and the other one I do see once a week. But she is married and she does not have a lot of time to see me except that one time during the week. Luckily, I live near a very large university campus that has many churches around, where I am certain may have enough "younger" people attending. I don't want to be ending up attending a church where most of the people there are settled down. A huge part of me (or rather, almost all of me!) would like to attend a church where there might be enough singles but from what I read on the internet, those churches aren't easy to find that makes me very sad. I just thought that maybe since I live near such a large campus, that the churches next to it might have a suitable demographic because it is possible that many of the people from the campus religious organizations might be attending these churches. I don't know. Maybe it's all wishful thinking!

[49. Becky F. said the following at 10:04 AM on Apr 5:]

49

I didn't really read the comments, since there's 40something already, but I agree with John M. that I hope the woman would have asked the man similar questions herself. That's what dating and getting to know a person is all about. I know I asked all my boyfriends similar questions, and definitely asked my husband these types of questions on our first "date".

[50. Marci said the following at 10:11 AM on Apr 5:]

50

Hey Darin,

I've been thinking about your comment that this list of questions might discourage, rather than encourage, men to initiate courtships etc with godly women. And on the one hand, it may... but I think what it might more likely do for the godly man is make him take stock of his readiness for marriage.

In our culture, marriage has been devalued. Decades ago, a man would have never DREAMED to ask for a woman's hand in marriage without making sure he was in a position to trully take care of her. Now we are living in a society where women their own jobs and careers (I, for one, think this is great!). The problem is, at the end of the day, if the woman loses her job -- and is unable to find another one for some time -- it is her husbands duty to ensure that her and any children who have been produced are taken care of!

The seriousness of marriage is far too often overlooked in Christian circles -- I see fathers allowing men to marry their daughter who haven't proven they have basic finacial means/responsibility to handle marriage, talk less of if a child comes! Then when havoc ensues, the people who enjoyed the wedding food but kept silent about missgivings want to gossip -- this is wrong. This is why courtship is ideally entered into only once people are in a position to take on not just the joys of marriage lol, but the practical day to day runnings of marriage - spiritual, emotional, financial, etc. I'm sure the no one at boundless is so busy trying to spur men on to action and initiation of courtship that they want them to do so before they are adequately prepared! These questions give insight into what a father -- GET THIS -- has the RIGHT to ask!

Some of the posters seem to have forgotten that as women are under the authority of their fathers, it's not a matter of 'oh well, then I guess I don't want to marry into that family' -- ANY father has the right to ask these questions! Lets not forget the biblical hierarchies that are in place!

Men MUST feel the weight and responsibility that becomes theirs the day they say I do!

Here's a boundless article I feel explains what markers a man who desires to be married must have -- it may be that after you read "For Guys Only: The Marks of Manhood" most of Wilsons questions will seem more than fair...

http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001093.cfm

Blessings to you!

[51. BDB said the following at 11:08 AM on Apr 5:]

51

For the record, I never complained about being asked hard questions.

Though it's not always the father asking them. A couple of years ago one of my relatives go married in Las Vegas, and a few of us flew in for the wedding. No one from the groom's family came. But after two days, the poor guy was just exasperated with us. When I finally got around to asking him what he did, he exclaimed, "I have a good job! Why do people keep asking me that! I'm a Teamster -- I drive and have opportunities for advancement!"

We eased up on him after that. A little. But at least he understood beyond a shadow of a doubt that we were paying attention!

[52. Charles H. said the following at 11:33 AM on Apr 5:]

52

Marci, Thanks for the clarification about volunteering as ministry. That makes a lot more sense.

Now in response to your subsequent posting (I'm not trying to pick on you, honest! =) I think we need to be discerning about this question of paternal authority. Boundless has made some pretty broad claims regarding how a woman's father is entitled to partcipate in her search for a husband, but if I recall the courtship debates correctly, the justification for many of the suggestions came down to "this makes sense and is a good way to do things." That's not the same as a Biblical mandate.

In cases like Shazia's (or my own, for that matter, were I a woman -- substituting an atheist father for a Muslim) then we were told that a similar figure, such as a pastor, ought to be substituted. But here again, is this actually described in the Bible or is this our own fallible reasoning?

And oh yeah, Shazia: There are plenty of ways to immerse yourself in the Word. If you can't get to church service just yet, can you join a Bible study? Can you get online sermons from someone like Ravi Zacharias (sp?) or James Kennedy? I can tell you're really hungry for the Word.

[53. Gina said the following at 12:19 PM on Apr 5:]

53

Jake -- in which men and women are not considered equal?? I sincerely hope I read that wrong, because in Christian theology, men AND women are equal in the eyes of God. Not like, but equal (see Madeleine L'Engle on that distinction).

I'm all for chivalry, but chivalry is not about inequality.

[54. P&P said the following at 12:20 PM on Apr 5:]

54

I'm with the poster who said that this is age relative. I'm on my own and do not ask my parents for financial support, so I don't expect them to control my personal affairs. I understand that they don't want me to be hurt and to find a helpmate, but at this point in my life, my father has to abide by my decisions, not the other way around.

I only think this mentality applies if you're dealing with a 35 year old man expressing an interest in a 20 year old woman. At that point, it's essential to not only protect her emotionally, but also financially. I also think that fathers should spend more time raisng young women to be strong enough to ask these questions on her own -- after all, dad isn't going to be around forever.

Frankly, I now ask men some of these questions and I expect them to do the same for me. Love may cover a multitude of sins, but it doesn't pay the bills.

[55. Darin said the following at 12:31 PM on Apr 5:]

55

Marci, I agree with you that a father has a right to seek the answers to the 21 questions and that the suitor should be ready to give answers. However, the father DOES NOT have the right to be confrontational, sarcastic or disrespectful about it. He should speak to the young man with the same respect that a father would (should) give to his own son.

Perhaps the author is assuming that fathers will read that courtesy into his list of questions...but the reader DOES have to "read courtesy into" what was written.

I think that we are in agreement on this issue. We are just drawing different conclusions about his implied approach.

[56. Mark said the following at 12:51 PM on Apr 5:]

56

As a guy who has a few things in his past that he is not too proud of, getting asked this list of question WOULD be a major deterrent to dating a godly young woman. I've been beaten up before on my bad choices and I flinch at having to go through it again. While I totally respect the right of the father to tend to his daughter's well-being, airing the dirty laundry too early in the relationship can distort the person's character.

In Tommy Nelson's "Song of Solomon" study, he mentioned that you should have a conversation about each other's past transgressions, but not too early on, and then proceed to leave it in the past (that's a rough paraphrase.) If brought up at the start, then all the other person sees are these sins, and not how the person is living now. Past sins (particularly "the big ones") are important to know, but don't necessarily define the person as they are now.

I like to go with the mutual fund disclaimer of past results not predicting future perfomance.

[57. Kyu said the following at 1:07 PM on Apr 5:]

57

Shazia,

I've been married for six months now. I grew up in a very strong Christian home; never went through a time of rebellion or committed serious sins before God (by His grace). He protected me from harm, and guided me all my life. Our family had peace. It was a gift from God, no doubt.

My wife grew up under Buddhist parents. Her father took her to Buddhist temples, played recordings of Buddhist chants in the house, and constantly reminded her of Buddha's goodness. She hated everything about Buddhism. Contrary to her father's wishes, she started secretly attending church during junior high school, even though her father threatened to disown her if he ever caught her following Jesus. Then, one day, while she was at a Friday night service, she got a phone call from her younger sister who told her to come home right away. Her father found out she was at church. He flipped out and all *h*ll* broke loose in the house: he found her Bible in her desk, ripped it to shreds, and tossed in the trash. During the subway ride home, my wife (in tears), raised up to God her extremely distressed cry for help, asking for strength. Even after all her years of being the passive and obedient firstborn, at the moment of confrontation (unable to look up into her father's eyes), she confessed to him that she loves God, and that she will continue going to church. She distinctly remembers him not having any response to what she said, perhaps he didn't hear her clearly, or perhaps he was so taken aback by her defiance (her first and only defiance) that he didn't know what to say.

During those years, my wife wondered if she would ever be able to marry a Christian man someday. That was her heart's desire. All she wanted was the chance for her future family to worship God together in her own home (and we have that now every night, just the two of us, praying together and praising God with our not-so-talented voices). My heart's desire was for a wife who loves God over everything else (including her earthly family members!). When it came down to it, she laid down her earthly father-daughter relationship for her relationship with the God of the universe. That was what mattered to me, not the length of her church attendance or her parents' positions at the local church. It was her testimony and her purity (which you yourself have honored God with) that swept me off my feet. She told me her testimony on the 2nd day of my 4-day trip to meet her for the first time. We entered into ‘informal’ engagement on the 4th day (as my father had to also meet her a week later to make it ‘official’), and got married 3 months later.

Shazia,

You are at a good place. You are at a place where you can only surrender to God because there's nothing else you can do. May God continue to give you strength as you pray for the salvation of your family. It was meant for the father to be the spiritual head of the family, but God has placed you in this blessed situation, and equipped you with powerful prayers to lead your family into His kingdom. May God grant you soon, like He did with my wife, a husband who will lead the peaceful family devotions at home, where prayers flow continuously without end (and we will pray for you!). We don't know where your future husband is, and you may or may not find him at your local church. So please keep at it with godly wisdom, doing what you can when you can, but also realizing that God is ultimately in control.

[My wife attended a church of thousands of people, with hundreds of singles. I've lived and attended churches (big and small) in the northeast, midwest, and west coast during the past ten years. Neither of us have ever had a boy/girlfriend. Yet, God brought us together somehow... And by the way, she is from another country.]

[58. Mike Theemling said the following at 1:34 PM on Apr 5:]

58

Interesting discussion.

First I am glad that the guy and girl list are for the most part "even handed". At first I was wondering if this was another example of assuming the worst of men and the best of women, but overall both seem to focus on the same issues (relationships with friends/family, money issues, sexual history, etc). And these issues are relevent. For example, Christians (and others) seem to downplay the importance of financial compatibility despite it being a major stressor in many marriages.

Still, Jake, Bethany, and others have brought up the legitimate point that some of the questions they do seem adversarial in nature and pretty much it's the "guilty until you prove yourself innocent" routine which honestly no one likes. Who wants to be assumed the worst about them? Reminds me of the polygraph setup in _Meet the Parents_.

What's important as some has pointed out is the PRESENTATION of these questions. If they were all asked upfront verbatim or given in a written format (expecting you to use a #2 pencil) then anyone I think would be rightly turned off by this for two reasons: 1) It DOES imply that there is a minimum score threshold and depending upon your assumptions very few would "pass" the test. 2) Even if it didn't assume 1) it plays the immediate comparison game with people.

Let me expound. Say 2 guys, A and B approached a father regarding daughter X. They are both given the test. Guy A scores reasonably well (passes) but is very attractive to daughter X. Guy B scores extremely high (because he grew up in a monestary [just kidding]) but daughter X isn't all that attracted to her. Now, which should the father recommend for courtship?

Most people here I imagine would say A simply because we have that modern mindset of "we should let the woman decide ultimately" and "there's more to romance/marriage than just pratical reasons". But in generations past B would've been the clear winner and the father would not let the daughter even consider A despite her feelings for him.

So I'm wondering if as a whole we really are ready for this "courtship" movement. If we talk courtship but act like dating then it's really no different from what we've been doing. And I wonder what Pastor Wilson would do considering this scenario.

Sidenote: I still think that either method is perfectly acceptable so long as both are adhering to Biblical principles. No method is fulproof against being hurt emotionally; it's the risk one takes in love and putting your heart out there.

[59. Darin said the following at 1:56 PM on Apr 5:]

59

Shazia, I have a couple of scripture verses that I hope will encourage you:

"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life." Matthew 19:29

"God sets the lonely in families, he leads forth the prisoners with singing..." Psalm 68:6

In a manner of speaking, you've been made a spiritual prisoner in your own home. But I believe that God wants to lead you forth and liberate you. We don't know yet what God's plan is or what his timing will be...but He does have a plan.

It sounds like you're already looking for that "liberation plan", but you're discouraged by the thought of being alone. That fear is understandable. But I believe that God wants to place you in a family...with brothers and sisters and spiritual mentors.

As far as having the authority of a father in your life, many people have reasons that they can't go to their biological father, so they adopt spiritual parents (mentors) to fill that role. And I know that there are godly couples out there who would be most proud to serve you in that way.

For now, it sounds like you're doing all that you can under the circumstances. The only other thing that I would recommend is if you're able to get in touch with a local pastor (perhaps during the week) and tell him of your situation.

In addition to their wise counsel, pastors generally know a lot of people so they are a good source of information on jobs, affordable places to rent, people who are looking for room mates, and so on.

Also, please don't feel ashamed by your background. As Christians we are taught to love those who don't agree with us...and that includes Muslims. The angels in heaven rejoice upon receiving you into the Christian family and the rest of us rejoice along with them.

God bless and you are in my prayers.

[60. V said the following at 2:15 PM on Apr 5:]

60

Shazia -- continue in the Lord. You will seek guidance and you will find guidance. Jesus has told us that he has left us His Spirit -- the wonderful counselor. I empathize with your struggle. I encourage you in the name of the Lord. Try as best you can to meet with/talk to other Christians, that you may be encouraged. I will pray for you.
Though not of the same situation, when I was younger (by that I mean, a teenager), I found myself feeling similar -- that because of my own family background, why would a Christian man of a Christian family want to date me? (I was holding myself to the same standard that was to be held for the men -- "does he come from a good, believing family?") Thankfully, I have come to understand that it doesn't matter. I am a believer; if someone were to have chosen not to marry me because of my family, it would be their personal choice,and not my fault. :-)
Now, another issue: I have many a friend who began a relationship with a young man their parent(s) disapproved of initially -- even for quite some time. The same parents that could not STAND the young man in the beginning, grew to love him incredibly **over time** (sometimes, even a whole year, or more), and the couples eventually married and are happy and working out their lives. What does anyone have to say about that? Should they (the ladies) have given up those relationships because the parents disapproved initially? Because, perhaps, the young man did not answer the list of questions to the parents approval? And, also where/how do we leave room for grace (if need be)? I understand a "Soul is Like a House," and these things must be highly considered -- but where does one have "faith for the man he'll become" -- or honor for the man he has become, in spite of the past? It seems a little tough sometimes. Sometimes it seems like there is a bit more grace extended to the females with pasts than the males. I wonder if it leaves the men feeling discouraged, and the women feeling confused if the man in their life is one who has difficult answers to some of the questions. Just some thoughts.

[61. S said the following at 4:35 PM on Apr 5:]

61

Jake,

(with thanks to Gina for mentioning it). You say you "advocate a return to traditional sex roles where women by and large are not in leadership positions, but rather remain in the home." I'm sure if that's what you are seeking in a wife, you could certainly find a woman who has the same goals, but you seem to want all of society to shift back with you!
Do you believe such discrimination in hiring should be codified in the law? If you believe that women should not have leadership positions, do you also believe that they shouldn't pursue graduate level education in medicine, law, business or any other field? Or do you feel that if they do pursue such paths, should they be warned going in that certain positions will be forever closed to them, ("Sorry ladies, you may be good, you may be brilliant, even, but there's a limit and above this limit you may not pass, even if your skills and talent and everything else, found in a man, would make you more than worthy.")? Would you support such attitudes in hiring if they were based on race?

ChristianityToday had an incredible article on submission: http://www.christianitytoday.com/singles/newsletter/2007/mind0321.html

Explain this "true traditional morality" in which "men and women are not considered equal". I am not familiar with it.

[62. Marci said the following at 7:12 PM on Apr 5:]

62

Charles H,

Your comment was interesting, and I've been thinking about it. I think what this boils down to is what you believe the father's role to be from a spiritual perspective. Fathers are the representative of God in the home, and are supposed to be the protectors of all those who live therein. Symbolically, when we marry, the authority over the woman passes from her father to the "new" man( husband). Given that this is the case, does there not seem to be a precendent that the father -- prior to marriage -- has the spiritual authority to aid the woman in her choice of the spouse who will take his role? He is her parent/authority figure, and has the role *until* she marries, at which point she obviously submits to the authority of her husband.

The fathers *job* or role is not completed until he has successfully handed over protection of the daughter to her husband. Not just any joe will do lol -- the father *hands over* this mantle of responsibility -- and I think this teaching has become stronger in the church as people realize that this is not a light role, and parenting must be taken seriously even at this juncture.

No? Yes? This does seem to be the spirutal principle that is at play here in the very set up of families and the notion of 'giving away.'

Of course, I realize, as another poster mentioned, that if the father has been abusive, etc, the young lady may want to find a mentor or pastor who can protect her heart as her biological father was mandated to by screening out men, too. And of course, I think that women should ask questions themselves, too.

Your thoughts are welcome!

Blessings to you!

[63. Marci said the following at 7:16 PM on Apr 5:]

63

Darin,

I agree -- no father should be rude. But I think the guys should be encouraged -- if the father is a Godly man, why would he want to freak you out by being unkind and rude? My father's traditional, but he is a kind, respectful man and would and has asked questions of suitors in a friendly, conversational type of way....

I think father's aren't as scary as some of y'all might think lol...

I do think our other points largely meet, as well

Blessing to you!

[64. m Castillo said the following at 12:15 AM on Apr 6:]

64

1928??? is that when this post was made? Was this made by someone who has grown up in our society? My debt history and GPA is between myself and God and the pride I put into working hard... Back in the land of 'real world' where people divorce and Christians don't always act perfect, people aren't so crazy... my girlfriend's parents are Christians but oppose her going on the mission field and her dad has a psp... some of these articles aren't helpful at all

[65. LauraZ said the following at 3:30 PM on Apr 6:]

65

I disagree with some of the comments posted...I don't think the questions are a problem at all, and even if the answer is my GPA was low, my credit score is bad, and I'm still unsure about my future...I would hope that the guy would then be able to respond with what those "negative" experiences, and possibly immature actions taught them about responsibility...As a young woman who has also not always made wise decisions, I would have to say that my credit is bad...and I'm still dealing with the consequnces of that past sin, but I can also say that the Lord has drawn me closer to him through that, and I now better understand the importance of teaching my children about financial stewardship...

[66. Ariana said the following at 1:38 AM on Apr 7:]

66

Ted,

It seems that what "anonymous" is saying is not that "If I were just godly enough, then God would give me a husband," but that articles like the aforementioned appear to conclude that those with troubled backgrounds are not together enough for marriage--almost by virtue of the fact. The myth is talking about women thinking that it is the Lord who is requiring a certain mysterious level of godliness before He will grant their desire to be married. But Anonymous seems to be talking about a certain standard that Boundless and others like it can seem to be setting up for getting to the altar.

For instance, the questions directed toward the women mentioned in the post, "So you want to court my daughter," ask things such as, "When she begins to be more like her mother in 10 years, will that be a good thing?" Or, "Does she look up to and respect her father? Does respect come easily to her because of her relationship with him?" Though the answers to these questions will probably reflect a person's character, they won't necessarily do so. Many times, what lists like these do is they presume a certain type of "Christian" background and effectively make that backgroud nigh unto a necessity for being a mature person, or a person ready to be married. (note: actually, the list for the men wasn't that bad. I thought that the questions for the ladies were more close-ended)

Also, I don't think that many evangelicals realize this, but lists like the ones we are discussing are almost necessarily aimed, not simply at believers, but at believers within the Christian sub-culture. There are scores upon scores of people who did not grow up in the Church (i.e, their families are not Christian, or they have a spotted past). And if the Church is doing it's job, that should be the case. But in churches where adult conversion is common and many people have such stories, people would not as easily assume that a person's mother or father were people to be modeled or to be in a close relationship with, which at least one of the questions presumed. And again, to go back to what "anonymous" wrote, that really can be discouraging if you happen to have a non-Christian background with a number of bad elements in it. Christians should not underestimate the type of pressure it can put on people who weren't raised in the church to come against a culture that can imply (unintentionally, I'm sure) that you're not really living a deeply Christian life, or not able to experience the fullness of God's will in your life unless you have a certain background. (sounds extreme, but that impression can definitely be subtly given).

Yes, wise Christians will understand that the Lord truly changes people and brings them through adversity. But I still think that if the author were being more mindful (and realistic even), he would write a list that got more at how that person has dealt with life in general, whatever it has contained.

[67. Ted Slater said the following at 7:59 AM on Apr 7:]

67

FWIW, Ariana is responding to a comment I made on a different thread, in which I wrote:

Anonymous -- Please read Suzanne's article that we published this week: Seven Myths Single Women Believe. One of the common "myths" is exactly what you describe in your last sentence -- "If I were just godly enough, the Lord would give me a husband."

No, God blesses us despite our sinfulness. And he doesn't withhold his blessing just because of our falling short. He's an inexplicably generous Lord.

Anonymous had written, "I am starting to think that perhaps marriage is only for those who have it all together and haven't messed up."

Again, I have to disagree with that conclusion. None of us has is all together. All of us have messed up.

As I wrote there, I still maintain that those with sinful backgrounds (wouldn't that include all of us?) are not excluded from being the recipients of God's grace. None of us is, as Anonymous wrote, "disqualified from marriage."

And as has been written earlier, the series of questions are not meant to be a "true-false" interrogation, but a way to open up a conversation between a father and a young man interested in his daughter.

[68. Charles H. said the following at 8:46 AM on Apr 7:]

68

Marci - It sounds like you're reasoning more from the contents of the wedding ceremony than from the Bible. This doesn't mean your conclusions are necessarily *wrong*, only that I don't think it automatically follows that they are God's way of doing this. At any rate, I'm not saying that fathers should be *uninvolved*, only that I don't see the Bible compelling a particular method or exact degree of involvement. It appears that it is left to our discretion as Christians. It is certainly to be hoped that a father will choose to offer his guidance and help for a daughter as she finds a husband, and that their relationship will be such that this will be both (a) a good idea and (b) one that is accepted. That, however, still leaves a broad range of options for *how* he chooses to help.

So, why do I bother with what sounds like a semantic argument? Because if it's *our* reasoning and not God's, then we have a lot more latitude in adapting it. In other words, if God says "do it this way," we need to try to do it that way. But if we're just doing it this way because it seems best to us, then we're free to say things like "This woman's relationship with her mother (sister, brother, etc) is much closer. Mom/sis/whoever should interview the guy." Or, alternately, "This woman is mature and self-supporting, and is essentially capable of doing her own screening." I've known both types, and the best example I knew of the latter (quite a Proverbs 31 woman, btw) had parents who would have been completely unsuited to any sort of spiritual guidance for her: they were not Christian and appeared to decide about prospective suitors based on some sort of astrological silliness. Again, if it's God's will for him to do the screening, I have to make the best of it. But if we're to decide on a case-by-case basis who the "screener" is, it sounds like it's our own logic at work. That's all I'm saying.

[69. Danielle said the following at 11:50 AM on Apr 7:]

69

istm this question list is all about discernment. "the heart is deceitful above all things," says Scripture, and it is true. It is in *anyone's* best interest to ask others to help discern whether a potential mate is a good match. And as sexual and financial issues are the 2 main things over which marriages crumble, it would be good to know beforehand where each other stands on esp. those 2 issues. I think the sexual questions are especially needful in the climate today.

Of course, anyone could hide anything and appear innocent under questionning... but istm someone who is older, wiser, and whose passions aren't flaring, would be better able to discern lack of integrity and problem areas.

[70. Vesselformercy said the following at 12:12 AM on Apr 8:]

70

Truly, I am surprised, (and somewhat turned off) by many of the responses listed here. As a single girl under my father's protection, I would be honored and feel very protected were my dad to “grill" suitors that come my way. How foolish I would be to wish my dad to be more “gentle” in order to keep from “scaring” away some guy! The truth is, if any young man is “scared” or “intimidated” by such a grilling, he isn’t worthy of having, holding, or protecting the very treasure he is seeking (i.e. a wife). Marriage is permanent; it is a father’s DUTY to ensure with every fiber of his being that his daughter is given to a man of integrity, honor, and character. What better way is there for a father to understand the depth of a man’s character (or lack-there-of) than to ask direct, personal questions?

A god-fearing man should not be afraid of answering direct questions. In reality, a god-fearing man should be encouraged by such a grilling because it will be a tell-tale sign of the family he is seeking to become a part of. Chances are if a father is going to be so bold in investigating the character of a young man, he has likewise been direct in confronting his daughter on character issues, ensuring her readiness to fill the role of a godly wife and mother.

[71. Darin said the following at 9:48 AM on Apr 8:]

71

Vesselformercy, suppose that a guy brought you home to meet his family and the mother took one look at you and said, "So...how many guys have you slept with?" "Do you know how to cook?" "And how about your spending? Do you spend all of your money on clothes and having your nails done?"

I can guarantee you that if someone put up a post that advocated such rude behavior toward women, virtually every guy on this site would be writing in saying "This is insanity! Sure those questions need to be answered...but this approach is rude, tactless and downright meanspirited."

Honestly, I'm surprised (and somewhat turned off) by the fact that a few of the commenters here don't think that guys are deserving of even the most basic level of courtesy. (I'm not speaking of all women here as I know that some were simply reading courtesy into the questions.)

Consequently, I don't have anything to hide and I would GLADLY answer those questions if asked appropriately. In fact, I would answer them even if they were asked in a rude and tactless manner. (But I would be watching closely to see the young lady's response to her father's rude and tactless approach. After all, no guy wants to be married to a woman who thinks that he was made to be a doormat.)

[72. Ame said the following at 11:15 PM on Apr 9:]

72

Shazia - I've been following this thread loosely ... this may be of interest to you . . .

Have you heard of Afshin Ziafat (http://www.afshinziafat.net/)? He grew up Muslim, became a Christ-follower, and was disowned by his father. His story is incredible. I've heard him share his testimony, and it changed my life in ways different from yours.

Here's the online link to a sermon he preached in a church in Atlanta and shared his testimony: http://www.northpointministries.org/player/player.jsp?occurrenceID=1406

I do not know the life you live, however I have had to choose Truth over a relationship with my family. Though my family claim to know God, they do not accept the reality that they have been and are abusive. The last time my parents were here, four years ago I think, my dad started hitting my kids - 3 & 5 yrs old at the time. I told him he could NOT hit my kids, EVER! He said he didn't hit my kids. I told him, "I saw you hit them; you may not hit my kids!" Both he and my mother totally denied he did anything wrong at all and still deny any of the abuse of every kind they did to me. It is very, very sad.

When I listened to Afshin, I realized that when God calls me to become more "public" with my testimony, my story, then I will have to do so despite the fact my family will deny the truth and deny me. It is hard to swallow - because they will (and do) call me a liar. I am not a liar. I know what they did; I was the victim. Now I am the survivor. Now, I go by Ame out here in cyber space. Someday God may call me to become more public with my story, and I will need to make the choice to go by my real name.

Also, another huge part of my story is the way my ex husband abused me and his deep addiction to pornography. When I become "public" with this information, it will be under the distinct direction from God. I have much to consider ... my children do not know right now. Someday they will, and I want them to hear the truth from me. My ex husband's life is another consideration. And, his family - his parents are retired, career, foreign missionaries and his brother is a national missionary.

Yet, someday, when the time is divinely directed by God, I know God is going to use my life on a wider level - and the stories woven within to reach others going through the same. Pornography is so prevalent - it leaves many innocent wives (and innocent husbands as women are also addicted) in its wake. Porn is also raising the stats on child abuse of all kinds, and I was abused in every way.

I cannot imagine at all your situation. I have Muslim neighbors whom I absolutely love, yet I do not understand all their ways. I do, in my own way, know what it is like to choose the Truth of God over my family, and to loose most all of my family in the choice.

To Ted and Motte - I realize there is a lot of info in here - feel free to edit if necessary.

Dear God, I lift Shazia up to You. Keep drawing her intimately to You in such unique ways that she knows she is looking in the face of The Almighty God who is alive and who loves her deeply and who knows where she is and the weight of the choices laid before her. Fill her with Your strength to choose You alone, Jesus, as the blood sacrifice for all her sins and her Savior. Fill her with Your Wisdom, God, in knowing how and when and where and what to share with her family. Surround her and cover her with You, Lord, as only You can. Thank You for her willingness to take such a huge step and be so open here. I love you God, Ame

[73. Leah said the following at 12:15 AM on Apr 10:]

73

I know this is pretty off-topic, but it's something I think would be an interesting discussion point at Boundless, and maybe by posting here it'll get noticed instead of the deluge of emails to the editor that go un-noticed.

In Candice's recent Boundless Answers post, she said "There's a lot of changing and maturing happening between freshman year and when you graduate. It's not likely you're still going to be interested in the same guy at 23 that you were at 15, 16 or 17."

Does this bug anyone else? For starters, who said 23 is the magic age at which you will suddenly know who is suitable to be your spouse and who isn't? And what about some of Boundless's own contributors- Bethany Torode comes to mind- who got married before 20? And does this mean that the friends you have in high school won't be your friends 5 years down the track, because the people you're interested in at 17 won't be the people you're interested in when you're 23? I'm 19, and I've had friends for 19 years. I've matured an awful lot in that amount of time, does that mean I'm no longer interested in the same people?

If the Boundless editors choose not to publish this, I totally understand seeing as it's pretty unrelated to the blog, but I'd still like to see it addressed. And maybe there could be an exclusive email for the Boundless Line seeing as emails sent to the Boundless email address get ignored?

[74. Leah said the following at 7:57 AM on Apr 10:]

74

Oh, I also think these questions should be asked of a young man only if he's already courting the daughter and is actually looking to marry her... so, in other words, "So You Want to Marry My Daughter" rather than "So You Want to Court My Daughter".

I think it's far too upfront, intimidating, and rude even, to ask these questions of a young man who is not even courting her yet. And as for "but if he's a real man he'll stick through it for the girl"- well, if they're not even courting yet, he might not know the girl so well, or be so in love with her that this wouldn't scare him off, and that makes him no less of a man.

For example, I'd go through that type of questioning for my boyfriend who I want to marry, but would I do it for a guy I was merely interested in courting? No way.

[75. Aaron Shackelford said the following at 9:03 AM on Apr 10:]

75

Assuming the father wants to sit the guy down and ask these questions all at one time or over the course of several "meetings", how about the man saying "I'll be glad to answer any questions you would like to ask me, but only if out of mutual respect for each other, you'll answer the same questions?"

[76. Shazia said the following at 9:48 AM on Apr 10:]

76

Wow Ame thank you so much for this link; I could always use inspirational links such as this. It would be cool to find more links like that. Anyway I guess I wasn't writing as much in this blog as I had previously, I sort of lost stamina to write more but I did keep on reading.

I do not want to digress too much but there are times where frankly it is difficult for me to read things on Boundless because it does tend to focus on marriage/dating/courting articles and everytime I read it I keep feeling like I've missed the boat in marriage and stuff, because being 27 and never having had a boyfriend, and constantly struggling with sexual desires, is making me wonder whether or not I have to suffer (yes, I do have to use that word "suffer") these desires for the rest of my life. I'm still trying to decide how much I would like to read things on Boundless because ever since one of the articles here made me literally cry (it was called "Cost of Delaying Marriage" but I forgot who wrote it), I've felt really sad ever since. Maybe the article was directed at those who are purposefully delaying marriage as opposed to being unable to get married due to "it's just not happening for me yet even though I would like it to." I don't know. But still, that article hurt my feelings a lot but I don't want to really "hijack" this blog thread because I want to essentially keep it focused on what the original topic was.

[77. John said the following at 9:48 AM on Apr 10:]

77

On the one hand, I like to think of myself as a stand-up guy, and my instinct would be to look her father straight in the eye and answer his questions (he might not like some of the answers).

On the other hand, it also occurs to me that my own parents do not know the answers to some of those questions. How weird would it be to tell a potential in-law (still a stranger) things that even my parents don't know about me. (Or, if her father happens to know my parents, will my answers get back to them?)

[78. BDB said the following at 11:30 AM on Apr 10:]

78

Leah, you wrote:

>>Does this bug anyone else? For starters, who said 23 is the magic age at which you will suddenly know who is suitable to be your spouse and who isn't? <<

That's a good question. Let me take a stab at tying it into the topic.

Take for example the questions about debt and student loans. They shed some light on how people make choices with the resources God has blessed them with. How people handle money says quite a bit about their priorities.

When I got my first real job after college, I got a 401(k). I had to pick a beneficiary. I suddenly realized that many of the "fun" people I knew in college were not people I could trust to manage my money if I was incapacitated. So, I discovered new values after age 23.

The questions are designed to force to the surface patterns of behavior. If you ever watched the MTV show, "Parental Control," you can see some amazingly slacker guys who nevertheless get the girl. One hopes that they will both grow up eventually.

[79. Mark said the following at 11:39 AM on Apr 10:]

79

I'm with John.

For whatever reason, I've never had a full-disclosure relationship with my parents. They assume they taught me how to make proper, God-pleasing decisions (which they did) and that I'd respond accordingly. Over the years, I've strayed from the path and regretted decisions that I've made. Am I supposed to tell my parents about these times? Am I supposed to tell my future in-laws about these times? Am I supposed to tell the parents of a girl I'm interested in dating about these times?

Were the relationship to get serious enough, I would obviously let out the secrets to my future wife, but who else really needs to know? I've confessed my sins to God and apologized to those directly hurt. Is there something else I'm supposed to do?

[80. Darin said the following at 12:30 PM on Apr 10:]

80

Shazia, I think that the article you mention was directed more toward women who are intentionally delaying marriage. I believe that God sends us opportunities according to His own timing. By intentionally delaying marriage we are essentially trying to force God to conform to our own time line and we're taking it for granted that God will comply with our demands.

In your case, I believe that God's timing is different. Had God sent a good Christian man too soon you may not have been ready. Had you tried to get ahead of God's timing, you might have married someone outside of your Christian faith. But you have honored God's timing and I believe that your reward will follow. Only God knows when it will happen, but I sincerely believe that it will.

[81. Ame said the following at 12:47 PM on Apr 10:]

81

Shazia,
Your feelings are valid. It is difficult to read "instruction" about that which you cannot control.

I wonder, have you ever heard of the Sovereignty of God? Believing God is Sovereign is essential to understanding the character of God. That God is Sovereign means that He is in absolute authority, absolute control of everything everywhere all the time and always has been and always will be. It does not alter our free will.

God is Sovereign over your life. He is, in a sense, *courting* YOU! He is wooing you unto Himself so that He might draw you into intimate relationship with Him. He longs for you to choose Him, to choose to love Him over and above everyone and everything ... including your family.

That God is wooing you unto Him, and you have yet to choose and be sold out to God, sheds light on one of the possibilities that you are still single.

See, the Holy Bible, in II Corinthians 6:14-15 tells us not to be unequally yoked ... or, one who believes in Christ should not marry one who does not. Perhaps, God is waiting until you choose Him ... then He will draw a man to you who follows Christ, too, and you will be equally yoked in your marriage.

Shazia - do you own a Holy Bible? If not, I believe I am correct in stating that you can conntact Boundless, a division of Focus on the Family (www.family.org) and they will provide a Bible at no charge to you.

As you read your Bible, God will reveal Himself to you, personally, right where you are, within your situation and circumstances, and you will have the freedom to choose to know Him. He loves you deeply, more than you can imagine. We cannot understand your sacrifice to follow Christ, but Christ can; He understands it intimately. And He can guide you on the path to Him.

Another thing about Boundless, they are essentially from an American point of view and founded on biblical concepts. These same biblical concepts will translate directly to where you are, however, the way you read what is written here may be difficult. Boundless addresses cultural issues in this American culture that concern the foundation of the family according to the Bible. The Bible is the never-changing standard we base our lives on. Yet, our circumstances and culture will greatly impact our needs and the way we view the Bible and the way God teaches us through His Word. Don't worry, God is bigger than all that. He can take His Holy Word and meet you where you are. God's Holy Word transcends time, space, culture, people ... it is eternal, it is solid, it is real, and it is alive and relative to you, where you are, right now.

Dear God, continue to draw Shazia into Your arms. Reveal Yourself to her in ways only You know she needs, and enable her to choose You. I love You, God, Ame

[82. Riqui said the following at 12:55 PM on Apr 10:]

82

Shazia,
You said: "...everytime I read it I keep feeling like I've missed the boat in marriage and stuff, because being 27 and never having had a boyfriend, and constantly struggling with sexual desires, is making me wonder whether or not I have to suffer (yes, I do have to use that word "suffer") these desires for the rest of my life..."
My roomate's mother put it like this--we are suffering for righteousness sake.
You, me, my roommate, my sister, and many other godly women (and men) are exactly where you are. So, first off, take heart, you are not alone. Second, I don't think we've quite missed the boat and I am really working on not "blaming" the Christian guys around us (or in my little world). I know that a few of the articles and posts in the past year or so places blame at the feet of the church, our current culture, and previous generations (Getting Serious About Getting Married) and at the feet of guys (Where's the Movtivation Guys?) I see a lot of fault all the way around--me included. However, God hasn't changed. He is still in the business of "directing us in the way we should go" and He "knows the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."
So, while we're "suffering for righteousness sake", I will pray for God's perfect timing and try to encourage my brothers and sisters.

[83. Ame said the following at 1:00 PM on Apr 10:]

83

Shazia - I believe the meaning of your name is "fragrant." What a beautiful name ... and how profound.

In order for frangrance to be released, the flowers or herbs or plants must be crushed. It is in the crushing that the beautiful fragrance is released. In history, people would plant herbs in the walk paths of gardens so that when they walked upon them their fragrance would be released from the crushing weight of their feet.

As you allow God to *crush* you, draw you to Him, mold you into His image, your beauty will be enhanced and your life will release a fragrant aroma that will rise to heaven and bring joy and honor to Christ Himself! Beautiful :)

[84. Shazia said the following at 1:07 PM on Apr 10:]

84

Darin I will certainly agree that the article was focused on women who purposefully postpone marriage. The ramifications of such a thing hurt me so bad while reading it even though it is not in my heart to purposefully postpone marriage. I just wonder whether the overall outcome described in the article (that is, the sadness experienced by the woman as she gets older) is the same for someone who ends up never marrying, whether it is purposefully done or not. I don't know if I am making any sense. Oh well. However you have a point on something: if I had attempted to defy God's true plans for me I would have probably married outside of the Christian faith but somehow, as agonizing as my lonely single lifestyle seems to be (this could be subjective - some people feel less agonized over this issue than others), the thought (for ME at least, anyway) of being unequally yoked with someone presents me with the thought of a very lonely marriage indeed. It would be just as lonely as being single because I wouldn't have anyone to really pour out my heart and soul about God the way I would like and it would not be able to enhance me spiritually since I am trying to DEVELOP more spiritually every day. I guess that this type of marriage, for me at least, would be just as lonely as being single.

[85. m Castillo said the following at 2:50 PM on Apr 10:]

85

I still think that part of this and people on here disregard most peoples' reality. My girlfriend's family has teased her about being a missionary. When they were going to move to Arizona, they expected her a 20-year old with roots in ministry and school, to just get up and move. They went back and forth between saying they would pay for school or not.
Then they said that they would pay, took out a student loan and then when it came time to take out the loan said she would be paying for it... and yes they are Christians...

A lot of us don't have great families, grew up with godly people mentoring us or parents that even encouraged us to finish school (my case). I just wish there was a more broad perspective on this board... I hope that was neither too personal and clear.

[86. m Castillo said the following at 6:14 PM on Apr 10:]

86

Leah,
I know your comment was way back, but Candice has a point about the age difference.

I changed tremendously from 19 to 21 and from 21 to my old age of 24 and this next year will be full of change as I finish school, figure out when to get married, figure out whether to go to seminary or grad school, whether to seek a job abroad or stay here.

She's got a good point that you'll see in the next few years. I for one, have found out more about myself and passions the last few years. I've volunteered for Invisible Children, learned a lot about how certain ministries should be ran, etc.

[87. jack haff said the following at 10:51 PM on Dec 23:]

87

There is a really need for folks to read the Word of GOD more, and books by "experts" like Doug Wilson less.

Much less, maybe not at all if your time for reading is limited. Don't neglect studying God's WORD for the "wisdom" of man, especially Doug Wilson.

[88. Jo said the following at 10:18 AM on Dec 24:]

88

I'm surprised no one on this thread brought up the 'problem' of young women who don't have a father around. My Dad died last year, so who is meant to ask future potential husbands these questions now? My Mum? My younger brother? Whose 'authority' am I now supposed to be under, as a 25 year old single woman? Way to completely ignore a huge percentage of the unmarried female population.

Personally I would have been mortified if my Dad had ever dared to grill a guy I was interested in like this. I agree with the commenters who said a father should get to know the guy, not give him the third degree. I would have loved for my future husband to ask his permission to propose to me, but there you go.

The idea of one man being responsible for a woman's welfare before she marries is ridiculous in my opinion. The father has an important role, but he's not the only one who counts. When I find the man I will spend the rest of my life with, I expect ALL my family, my pastor and my friends to want to get to know him and to be looking out for my best interests, and I will do the same for them.

[89. Jo said the following at 10:22 AM on Dec 24:]

89

Incidentally, is there ANYONE here whose father would seriously ask a possible son-in-law, "Have you ever participated, whether experimentally or otherwise, in any sexual perversions? Homosexuality? Molestation of children? Bestiality?"? That's not exactly an easy topic to casually drop into conversation.

[90. Ted Slater said the following at 11:48 AM on Dec 24:]

90

Jo -- as Pastor Wilson states in his first paragraph, "A list of questions like this ought not to be use in a wooden checklist fashion, but rather as a list of ideas to get started." No, no father is going to ask that series of questions verbatim. My father-in-law, before I married his daughter, did ask me similar questions, about sexual promiscuity. I answered him; he's her father, after all.

Regarding the concern you express in the previous comment, elsewhere we've talked about what a single woman might do if her father is not around. She could ask a male family member to be her mediator, or a pastor, or mentor, etc.

All sorts of options. You're free to go with one or disregard our counsel altogether. It doesn't bother me one bit either way, to be honest. I hope that's helpful, Jo.

[91. Jo said the following at 5:14 PM on Dec 24:]

91

"It doesn't bother me one bit either way, to be honest."

Why not?

[92. Ted Slater said the following at 6:14 PM on Dec 24:]

92

Jo -- I'm responsible to God and my employer for the information I provide. I'm unable to take responsibility for what our readers do with that information.

I am affected, I admit -- but only a little -- by those who disregard what I write. It's my prayer, though, that those nuggets that are God-inspired are taken to heart.

In other words, I'm not going to argue with you that you should take our counsel. You're free to take what you find relevant and ignore the rest. Hopefully some of it is relevant and helpful. Seriously.

[93. Louise said the following at 8:39 PM on Dec 24:]

93

In my opinion, it would not be appropriate for a prosecptive parent-in-law to grill a daughter/son's partner about his/her sexual history.

[94. mar said the following at 8:31 AM on Dec 25:]

94

My first instinct upon reading this post was to somewhat freeze up and feel put off. I was glad to read, however, that this wasn't actually supposed to be a "wooden checklist." Of course I believe fathers should be very careful about whom they allow their daughters to court. *However*, it needs to be done in a respectful and tactful manner. (I know I'd certainly be offended if my father decided to grill someone and prepared a checklist beforehand.)

[95. Richard said the following at 7:40 PM on Aug 5:]

95

Is this list of 21 questions really meant to be taken seriously ????

If a person really is of bad character, wouldn't they just lie thier way through these questions anyway ?????

[1. Blair said the following at 1:29 PM on Apr 4:]

1

I read this article a couple of days ago and thought he listed some great questions. I do not have a father who would ask such questions but I can. Even if the guy being questioned does not have the perfect answer for every question it is a good way to see where he comes from and how he is growing. As a women it also made me think about how I would answer some of the questions and showed me some areas I can work on.

[2. Jake said the following at 2:29 PM on Apr 4:]

2

As soon as I saw this list a few days ago, I knew it would be posted on Boundless sooner or later.

I have to admit, reading this list put me off, because behind the bare words of the questions I can't help but hear an accusatory tone, as though they were being asked by a school principal who had a child sent to his office for misbehaving. It's very obvious that to most of them, there is a right answer and a wrong answer, and if you give the wrong one, the response is "stay away from my daughter." I wonder, does Wilson think so badly of men -- even professing Christian ones -- that he thinks we should all be interrogated? I admit, some of my discomfort stems from knowledge of my own sins and flaws (it's true, I don't read the Bible as much as I should, and my college GPA wasn't as good as it could have been) but these questions seem to be posed with a tone of "if you have to hesitate in the slightest before answering, don't even try, scum."

I think the attitude represented by these questions -- and the notion of a father asking them -- is one of a misplaced chivalry that isn't compatible with the rest of the modern world. I'll be the first to advocate a return to true traditional morality, in which men and women are not considered equal, girls are "given" in marriage, and because of their submissive position do require the protection of the men in their lives. I think our society would get on much better if things were that way. But those who advocate a chivalric, protection of the "weaker vessel" oriented approach to courtship never advocate such an approach being applied to society as a whole. Neither Doug Wilson nor Boundless, to my knowledge, say that women should stop going to college, should not prepare for careers, should not act or behave independently, but rather that their lives should revolve around being housewives and mothers. Unless you do advocate that, though, the notion of a father grilling his daughter's prospective suitors this way is just strangely out of place. I mean, there's something ludicrous about a man approaching a woman's father some Sunday afternoon about beginning a courtship with his daughter, and being interrogated with these questions ... and then the same daughter getting up Monday morning and going to work at her manager-level job where she has male employees reporting to her.

I'll say again that I advocate a return to traditional sex roles where women by and large are not in leadership positions, but rather remain in the home. But unless I'm living in such a world -- I'm sorry, I'm 30 years old, and if a girl's father asked me how much money I made last year or what my college GPA was, or said that he "needs to know" if I had any sexual escapades in high school before becoming a Christian, I WOULD have to say "mind your own business."

Of course, I can't imagine becoming involved with a girl who wanted her father to do this in the first place, and that brings me to a question: do advocates of this approach to courtship -- the man initiating by asking the girl's father rather than the girl herself, and the father then subjecting the man to a guilty-until-proven-innocent interrogation -- really think that it's something most Christians, even most conservative born-again Christians, buy into? I'd point out that for this approach to work, there need to be three people who believe in it: the young man, the father, and -- here's the kicker -- the girl herself. I attend a PCA church, and I can't imagine any families there even wanting to handle courtship this way. Certainly parents want to meet their kids boyfriends and girlfriends, and want their kids to get involved with other Christians who attend church and are living the Christian life, but I can't think of any Christians I've ever met -- and again, I'm talking conservative Bible-believers here, not liberal Christians -- buying into this system. So who are Doug Wilson and Boundless trying to reach? Do they think that lots of Christians out there want to do things this way and just need some guidance on how to go about it, are they trying to convince fellow conservative Christians of the value of it, or do they believe that anyone who doens't agree with father-directed, interrogation-based Biblical dating is an unregenerate heathen?

[3. John M. said the following at 2:38 PM on Apr 4:]

3

I would really hope the woman would have found out the the answers to all these before sending the guy to her father.

Also, can #10 be answered with a sincere "I don't know"?

[4. BDB said the following at 2:49 PM on Apr 4:]

4

"Wilson acknowledges that, unlike the suitor, the sought after are under no obligation to answer."

I almost choked on my coffee when I read that. Maybe because it was right below the part about bill-paying. Jokes about women and shopping aside, no man should propose to a woman who won't let him read her credit report, and vice-versa. Talk about a red flag.

I've always found it interesting that some people don't think it is appropriate to ask someone what they paid for their house. That information is public record and easily accessible for free on the Internet.

And yet I've perodically been surprised when some women are willing to tell me what they earn and how they pay their debts long before I'm comfortable bringing up the subject. Maybe they're bragging, I dunno...

Most of the questions are pretty normal stuff -- relationship with family, college experience, etc. You might not ask these things on a first date. But my guess is that if a woman took the 5th on all these questions, it's going to be a very short relationship.

[5. Katie said the following at 3:07 PM on Apr 4:]

5

I agree that these are some questions the girls should be thinking about, too. Some of them don't have to be asked "just so"... but a girl should certainly know the answers early on. In fact, another girl I know came up with a list of over 200 questions that she wanted answered early on in the relationship!

[6. Katie said the following at 3:08 PM on Apr 4:]

6

I found the questions a guy should answer about a girl very interesting... and wondered how long it takes a guy to pick up on these kinds of things.

[7. Frank Hsueh said the following at 3:43 PM on Apr 4:]

7

I REALLY agree with Jake's comment [~].

Incidentally, the article doesn't reflect grace either (see Faith for the Man He'll Become [boundless]).

[8. Jen said the following at 3:47 PM on Apr 4:]

8

I guess the author wouldn't want his daughter to marry anyone like Jesus or the disciples, since they didn't have stable jobs or high GPAs.

[9. nikki said the following at 3:53 PM on Apr 4:]

9

Speaking to the suitor-to-lady string of questions...my thought is, I sure wouldn't want to court/date somebody if I didn't don't know them well enough to already be aware of the answers to *most* of those questions. If I didn't already know how someone treated their family, their parents, how committed they were to their local church body, their character in general...I wouldn't be thinking of dating them in the first place. Is that just me? Maybe it's just the "ideal" situation, to date someone you've already known and trusted...obviously not everyone has that luxury.

[10. Jethro said the following at 4:14 PM on Apr 4:]

10

If my potential father in law decided to ask me all of those questions I would consider he was doing me a great favor - because I would be certain that his family is one I would never want to marry into

[11. JenR said the following at 4:17 PM on Apr 4:]

11

After careful perusal of both lists, and being relieved to note that these questions (even for the men) are more conversation points than questions that must be answered "correctly" ("...not a wooden checklist."), there is still something about them that disturb me. Mostly, I think, the assumptions that go along with the questions (i.e. GPA in college -- yes, while I am a nerdy-dork who can't imagine not going to college, I know a great many of guys and gals my age who never went to college. And they are happily married, too. Besides, if we're asking questions about college, why not inquire as to how free time was spent during those college years? Keggers? Milk chugging contests? Poker games? Breaking into the science lab to see which chemicals make the coolest prank when put in the toilets on the girls floor? [Do we even dare ask if he went to a school that allows co-ed dorms?]).

While I think these questions would be a good basis for someone who wouldn't know what to ask (and I am going beyond "the father", because I know full well that often that role must be substituted by other[s]), I don't think they're the end-all. For example, the commentators on the original post ask why there aren't questions about drug use or alcoholism (yet at least four about sex) - something that would automatically be on my list to know about a guy.

Then again, perhaps my feathers are ruffled because I get the sensation I would answer "incorrectly" to the questions for the Prospective Wife (or I'd merely delight in the fact that I'm not "required" to answer them at all): i.e. I consider "domestic arts" a necessary evil, but I love to be hospitable even if all I have to offer is water and a seat on my well-worn hand-me-down sofa [#14]; I think sons (AND daughters) can be educated to any level they so choose (while I'm still undecided about a PhD, I'm not disallowing it for my children) [#16]; and yes, I love children and hope one day to be a SAHM, even though it can be argued that "feminism has gotten to me" [#15].

And does the Suitor really have to ask if the Prospective Wife is attractive to him? [#21] While I do realize that these are questions for a traditional courtship... if he's serious (and considering her to be his wife), then shouldn't he want to kiss the back of her neck?

Perhaps I'm taking these too seriously. Or I'm not taking courtship seriously enough. Clearly there needs to be some help for our generation in terms of relationships-that-lead-to-marriage (any dating/boy-girl relationship post is sure to generate many comments)... and these are decent guidelines...

...but only if they inspire conversation, and not merely "right" answers. I would treasure honesty over a perfect 4.0... and I hope my father would, too.

/rant

[I echo Katie's comment about grace. That Boundless article was in the back of mind when reading these questions]

[12. Jacob said the following at 4:25 PM on Apr 4:]

12

I am surprised at some of these responses. These are important questions that fathers, or surrogate fathers, who are involved in their daughters' lives have a right to ask. Further, I think some people are reading more into that list than is there (a flaw that many of us who leave comments here on The Line demonstrate regularly).
Straw man arguments are still bad arguments. If the woman is a godly Christian woman, she is worth having to answers these questions to her father. Further, I found, as a young single man, the list to be very helpful. It's a set of practical questions that can help me guage how prepared I am to enter into a marriage-oriented relationship. Praise God for those fathers who are willing to ask these questions, and praise God for those real men who are not afraid to answer them.
We all have the right to not tell someone something. However, are there not times when it is worth it to lay down that right for something better?

[13. Marci said the following at 4:26 PM on Apr 4:]

13

Hey All!

I found this a fascinating read! Some great points have been raised by posters, though, (ie. A lot of christian women I know would NOT be open to their fathers perfoming this kind of scrutiny on the men in their lives)...

BUT...I must acknowledge that back in the days when fathers made it their business to find out detailed information about the backgrounds of suitors, the divorce rate was WAY lower! My father would be willing to question a man in this way, and I would be willing to allow him to (though I realize that not everyone's in the same situation, so this model won't neccessarily work for everyone).

I do, however, agree with John M - the woman should find out this information! I've always been appalled when women don't ask important questions that sift out a guys spiritual, financial, and emotional state - I would think such questions should come in the first few months of the relationship, when people expect that they are being assessed. Of course, their are tactful ways of finding out if a quy is a spendthrift, if he's with me cus he thinks I'm the bank, if he serves God wholeheartedly, if he respects his folks...I have a strict 'first few conversations' policy. In the first few conversations, I ask about a guys spiritual status/walk with the Lord, his ministry, his education level, his career goals, and if he has kids. The maturity with which he handles these questions and the honesty and thoroughness of his answers determine whether I will give him a date or not (yes, that's right! I don't intend to be surpised and end up on a date with a man of few scruples and have my name and character tarnished by association!). So these convo's take place in person at venues we're at in groups or on the phone, etc. So far, this method is working like a charm! I have weeded out one bad apple after anther - guys who lacked direction, weren't interested in ministry *at all*, even though they claimed to be Christians, men who never planned to tell me till we got into a relationship that they had kids, men who were *terrible* with money (yes, you'd be surprised what people let out when they think certain behaviors are 'normal'!)...and I'm now with a wonderful Christian, godly man and my parents fully support the union!

Ok, I got side tracked...but I do agree with BDB - women ABSOLUTELY should be prepared to be interrogated on similar questions as well! I do know a few women who got into rediculous amounts of debt to 'stay in fashion' so they could 'catch a hot Christian man' with STUDENT LOAN MONEY! And I know women who have racked up consumer debt on credit cards, and figure they'll start paying off the $10,000 owed 'sometime before they say 'I do' -hopefully' ....Men should absolutely query women on their credit scores - and see their credit report as well - and their walks with the Lord, etc...

I know some people disagree with me, but an apparently *strong* christian walk does not make up for a lack of financial reponsibility in my books! I actually broke up with a guy who wanted to marry me because his irresponsibility in this area was becomming increasingly apparent, and he wasn't making strides to correct his loose spending and clear up credit card debt. I've always said: I would rather be with a man who made $30,000 Canadian a year who was responsible with his money than a man who made $60,000 a year and was irresponsible with his earnings.

Also BDB: have you considered that the some women might be volunteering personal information about their finances so you will open up about yours? I have some good friends who are responsible with their money, and want to know that any man who they think may have marriage potential is responsible with his as well, and one of them actually uses this tactic to try to find out if the guy has his stuff together, or if he's not there yet and she should move on lol. While you're wondering if they're bragging, my guess is probably not lol - their fishing!

And men, while our world doesn't seem to value the domestic arts, it's no fun being married to a woman who is the envy of all your friends but can't keep a house clean, is not hospitable, and can't cook! This is not to say that men should have no skills in this area (the man I'm courting is an excellent cook and can clean and the whole nine yards), but make sure you don't pick up a pretty girl who has not taken the time to cultivate these useful arts. I'm not trying to advocate the idea that women should stay home and have kids only - I think such matters are personal choice, but I do think looking for these basic things in both sexes is helpful...(In my case, I wanted a guy who could do the same things I could in this department so, heaven forbid, if something were to happen to me, he would be able to help practicaly with all these things).

Ok, I'm going to stop lol

Blessings to you all!

[14. Chris Krycho said the following at 4:29 PM on Apr 4:]

14

I think these sorts of questions do have a place, even in situations where a more formalized courtship is not expected to happen. I sent these to my dad, who is still little "weirded out" so to speak about the notion of going back to courtship, and he really liked the questions. They're the sorts of questions you might ask as the guy is trying to involve him and the family more. Even if you're going with a more traditional modern approach of just asking permission to marry her, these are good things that the dad would bring up in that conversation.

(Side note: Jake, I don't know where you're at, but the number of girls I know where I am here who very much want guys to be pursuing them in a way that's at least close to a "courtship" model might surprise you from the sounds of things. I don't necessarily expect to sit down with a girl's father and having him grill me before we ever go on a date; but I do expect that, circumstances allowing it, he and her mother will be very involved in the relationship; and he will be in a position of oversight. I hope that he will be the kind of man who would ask these kinds of questions, because that's the kind of man I pray I will have as a father-in-law. If it's not to be, then I'm fine with that, but that is my prayer. Don't assume that just because it's alien to your church community/region, it is everywhere. ;) )

I do agree that the woman should be - at least by some point in the relationship - obligated to answer some of those questions. Financial integrity ought to be well established, for example; and I do believe you have a right to know about each others' sexual history before proposal, and so forth. (It's not trivial, for example, to know that you might be risking an STI by marrying the person because of their history. That's not a place of lacking grace, per se, unless dealt with wrongly; but simply of wisdom.)

As for the accusation of an overall lack of grace, I don't see this - and I'm pretty sure Boundless and Pastor Wilson don't either - as a laundry list of things that have to be fulfilled perfectly for the father to say yes; but rather as a guide. If the suitor mostly meets this and is clearly striving to excel in his faith and in these areas, then why a problem? For example, if his GPA wasn't the best but he's now working hard and supporting himself and eliminating debt, then the old is outweighed by the new, and so on. You can take any such list and make it legalistic... but a much healthier approach is to simply treat them as "more like guidelines than actual rules."

[15. Bethany said the following at 4:34 PM on Apr 4:]

15

The tone of the questions aimed at the guys does seem to be much more true-false and adversarial than the questions for asking the girls. However, I think a lot would depend on the manner in which they are asked. If asked by a caring father, rather than a harsh judge, it would go over much better and the answers would be very illuminating. 2.5 years ago when my now-fiance sat down with me and my parents to officially ask my parents for permission to court me, they didn't use a question set quite this long or detailed, but they did ask about areas of his life like church experiences, personal faith, vocational calling, why he was attracted to me, etc. For me, that was an incredible experience of seeing how my parents really were looking out for my best interests - and an awesome experience of seeing him shine!

"Wilson acknowledges that, unlike the suitor, the sought after are under no obligation to answer." This part is where I differ with Pastor Wilson's attitude. As the pursued, more fragile females, it seems reasonable that women are not obligated to answer these questions at the START of the courtship -- but the men should certainly have the right to ask for whatever information they have not been able to gather on their own before they consider proposing marriage. Sometimes appearances don't show the whole picture of what a person is like; large student loans or credit problems don't often come up in casual conversation, and past sexual sins or hurts can be especially difficult for guys to 'mind read'. Defrauding our brothers is something that women should not take lightly, and Pastor Wilson's lopsided flow of information has a danger of producing just that "buyer beware" situation.

[16. Ben said the following at 4:34 PM on Apr 4:]

16

I think everyone has missed the point. These are suggested questions that help a father get to know the man who is seeking to initiate a relationship with his daughter. There may be a "right and wrong answer" but the weight of those answers are up to the father to determine. A father full of grace and Christlikeness will see the heart and path more than the exact answers. I would hope that the father of any girl I would choose to pursue would ask these same questions to me. Admittedly some are kind of scary, but I would rather be honest and open then secretive and dishonest. The initiate a relationship with a girl by seeking permission from her father first and his questions of me were very similar to these and I was honored by his intent in finding out more about me and my intentions. Plus, I was even more honored when he permitted me to pursue his daughter even with my faults exposed. He saw who I was to become not who I was at that moment.

[17. Laura said the following at 5:03 PM on Apr 4:]

17

I must say I completely agree with Marci! I can understand that the questions would be a little daunting from a guys perspective, but think about it -- men are the head of the household, not women. Therefore, I will be under my father's authority until the day I marry (and I understand that this situation doesn't apply for everyone, just bear with me), so obviously my father is going to want to make sure he's letting me marry a godly young man who's got his head on straight.
It's also important that we girls should know the answers to most of the questions before we agree to go out with them, and vice versa. This would reduce alot of heartbreak and frustrated relationships!
All in all, I totally support the father's right to question any potential suitor of his daughter (the questions may vary from father to father) and encourage all the guys out there not to be put off -- I'm sure you'll be doing it one day for your daughters!!!

[18. Bethany said the following at 5:07 PM on Apr 4:]

18

I'm a bit surprised by some (many?) of the responses. Why is it such a horrible thing for a girl's dad to ask the guy questions? Regarding a pursued woman's right to silence, I don't think the author was encouraging women not to talk to a guy with whom they're pursuing a relationship. The fact is that he's the pursuer and she's the pursued, which may mean that he'll make himself vulnerable before she does herself.

[19. BDB said the following at 5:19 PM on Apr 4:]

19

>>Also BDB: have you considered that the some women might be volunteering personal information about their finances so you will open up about yours? <<

Oh, I absolutely think they're fishing. Conveniently, I work in finance, so I'm well-matched for that kind of conversation.

But I tend to steer the conversation back towards how money is managed. He who is faithful in small things will be faithful in large ones. Income changes so much over the course of a career. It's very short-sighted to focus on top-line earnings if they're spending more than they earn on entertainment. Discussions about giving to the church and other charities are also important to have early. People who don't give do indeed seem to spend more money on entertainment. From the outside, it looks like more "fun," but it also shows where their priorities are.

The questions are also kind of amusing for an older person.

"If I went to your apartment, what would I find?"

Well, sir, I don't own any apartment complexes. My 401(k) only has investing options for equities and bond funds, though I'd like to see a REIT investment option.

OH! -- You mean how often does the landscaper come by? My apologies -- once every two months, except in the winter ... I mow the lawn myself...

But if someone did decide to challenge me, I can easily pull up my own credit report. And she could pull up hers for me at the same time, at this link:

https://www.econsumer.equifax.com/consumer/sitepage.ehtml?forward=cps_detail

I recommend the Equifax "score power" report. It gives you your FICO score, the one you need when buying a house or car. They also tailor to your credit report some really good tips on how to improve your score. The most important is to pay your bills on time and reduce credit card debt. The report forces you to face the reality of your spending choices. It's also VERY satisfying to watch the score creep up as you pay off the credit cards.

(Disclosure: I make absolutely no commission for recommending them!)

[20. Charles H. said the following at 5:24 PM on Apr 4:]

20

Aside from Boundless' emphasis on courtship, is there anything that makes this list more applicable to courtship than dating? I've been asked every one of these in relationships, and some of them (1, 3, 4, 5, 7, 10, 11) are things I assume I'll be asked on the first or second date.

With that said, some of these questions are more applicable to relationships than others. On-the-job morale correlates poorly with earning potential (ask an intern or a law student at a candid moment!), and the presence or absence of siblings doesn't indicate much to me. College GPA is important if the suitor is a student but gradually becomes irrelevant. (I'm 28 -- I think I've atoned suitably for my B in organic chemistry? =)

Marci, I'm a little puzzled by your comment about "men who aren't interested in ministry at all, though they claim to be Christians." We have to remember that not all men are called to the ministry -- even in the Old Testament, the Levites were but one of the twelve Israelite tribes. I suspect you mean various lay positions as well, but even then, I don't think one can infer lack of faith from their absence.

[21. Shazia said the following at 5:36 PM on Apr 4:]

21

Hi I am new here but I am often lack the motivation to write anything but I tend to read a lot of what is here. I was reading the counterpart link to this blog about 21 Questions for a Prospective Wife and it gave me a knot in my stomach because while some of the questions are very good, some of them would inevitably disqualify me from being a prospective wife at all, and that bothers me alot. Especially knowing that my heart aches to be a loving wife someday.

For example, I was not brought up in the Christian faith but now that I am grown up in my 20s, (I am a 27 year old female) I am very interested in becoming a Christian and am aspiring to do so, but doing so would mean that my family would likely disown me. My mom comes from a Christian background but "converted" to her husband's faith when she married him and even though I am not a follower of my father's faith, my father and his family would disown me, most likely, if they found out that I forsee myself becoming a Christian. I have only one sibling, my brother, who would side with my dad. My mother's side of the family just doesn't have the interest to keep in touch. Hence I am on my own. That means that I would fail questions #1, 3, 4, and probably 9. I don't really have bad relationships with my brother or dad but when it comes to religion, they become different people.

Other than that, I am a very traditional lady, a sweet person, who loves children, believes in saving it for marriage, but these questions make me feel as if I am a lousy candidate for marriage. Above everything else, I do feel as if I should be spiritually ready for marriage and that would be my first priority when it comes to considering marriage. But if questions like 1, 3, 4 and 9 are commonplace questions in determining whether I am noteworthy wife material, I feel like such a reject.

I hope I'm not flamed for this or anything. I guess I'm too sensitive when it comes to these things...:(

[22. Shazia said the following at 5:37 PM on Apr 4:]

22

By the way, when I was referring to question numbers, I was referring to the questions in the link "21 questions for young men to ask potential wives." Not the questions in the main blog article.

[23. ethan said the following at 5:38 PM on Apr 4:]

23

It's not horrible for a dad to ask questions but to have a list is insulting to the guy. If my father in law had asked me all those questions I would have answered them and I would have asked him the same questions back and I don't think he would have liked it.

Most of those questions are pointed and leading with an unstated assumption that it is up to the suitor to prove himself. These would be a whole lot better received prior to engagement but not prior to dating/courtship.

That is from a guys perspective but in 20 years if God gives me daughters I just might rethink this :-) (though I know several dads who have scared of potential suitors with this kind of behaviors)

[24. Jonathan from Canada said the following at 5:39 PM on Apr 4:]

24

I think if a guy can't stand a little judgment and adversary, he's pretty much a wimp who doesn't deserve to get married to an upstanding girl. Lay it out. Take some attacks and stick up for your past. At that point you get a good view of what her father is like. Does he forgive? Does he have unrealistic expectations? Is he gentle? Chances are, she won't be too unlike her father.

[25. ethan said the following at 5:43 PM on Apr 4:]

25

p.s. my wife says she doesn't like the questions at all. Unless you are applying for the CIA :-)

[26. Abby said the following at 5:46 PM on Apr 4:]

26

Hey guys first lets put this out. I've met Doug Wilson on several occasions and in fact my best friend is his great niece.

Some thing that I think is really important to culturally understand about the area that he (and I) live, in two small towns out in the middle of nowhere with a state university in each. This makes for the GPA thing to be important because there is a ton of binge drinking (WSU is normally in the top party schools) and that is a major reason that some college students have low grades. Nowhere in the question does it say that a low GPA is an automatic no, it just means that the circumstances are a little questionable, were they out parting or do they not have enough dedication to a project to see it though and what will that mean for my daughter. I highly doubt that he would be upset if the answer was "Not a high as I would of hoped but I studied a lot and by the grace of God I graduated."

And then this is just me. What kind of guys think that this is not a good thing for their (possible) future bride's father to care? Would you not want to grill any guy your little sister went out with? Do you not understand that as annoying is and I'm sure I'll have to go though the female version that it is way that the father(/family) makes sure that she's not being swept away by her emotions and marrying a real jerk. And it not like they want this to happen instantly, but instead after a girl has become serious about a guy and of course they want the couple to get to know each other.
My two cents

[27. Darin said the following at 6:00 PM on Apr 4:]

27

I don't have any skeletons in my closet...so (aside from the confrontational nature of the author's suggested approach) I would be delighted to answer all of those questions. On the other hand, I've known some smooth talking casanovas (i.e. seasoned liars) who would be more than delighted to answer those questions as well.

It seems to me that a more effective (and friendly) approach would be to take it in stages. First ask a few very general questions such as; "What are your intentions?" "How would you describe your relationship with God?" "What qualities do you see in my daughter that you want to court her?"

More questions could be introduced IN A TACTFUL WAY during the courtship process. These questions would be asked in a spirit of caring about the young man and wanting to know him better. For example: "Tell me about your family." "Oh, that's too bad about your parents divorce...what did you learn from it?"

Some questions (especially the more personal ones) would probably be better handled by a pastor. (I'm of the belief that pre-engagement counseling is better than counseling after engagement when minds are already made up.) I can see situations where revealing past sin to a future father/mother in-law could create big problems. (It should be sufficient that a pastoral counselor and the couple themselves know about it.)

It almost appears like the author of the article is attempting to turn the courtship into an engagement and replace pastoral counseling with an interrogation.

At points, I get the feeling that the author has a real chip on his shoulder when it comes to single men. (Some of his questions have a sarcastic tone to them.) Unless he phrased his questions a bit more respectfully I would probably call him on it.

I also find the article peculiar in light of the problem (which Boundless is forever speaking of) that guys are afraid to initiate. Is it supposed to make a guy feel more secure, knowing that a confrontational interrogation by the girl's father awaits him???

In conclusion, I agree that all of those 21 questions need to be answered...but I think that the author's "interrogation" approach (and his attitude) is a bit over the edge.

[28. Jay said the following at 6:10 PM on Apr 4:]

28

The key phrase in these posts:
"You can take any such list and make it legalistic"

That's what makes these sort of things dangerous. If we christians can make something legalistic, we'll do it in a heartbeat! Just remember to add a little charity & wisdom to the list!

[29. Brooke said the following at 6:16 PM on Apr 4:]

29

Interesting questions...But I don't think that one needs mostly positive answers in order to ensure a good relationship or marriage. Looking at the questions my husband and I would both fail miserably (ie. I'm not so good in the "domestic arts," work a job that often requires working weekends, he had some debt, was not raised in a Christian home, etc) However, we are married very happily, serve in volunteer ministry, and live for the Lord.

[30. Keb said the following at 6:54 PM on Apr 4:]

30

While definitely the questions point to important components of a good relationship, I suspect the *right* answers are not nearly as important as compatible answers. I see no reason why a woman who hates cooking should not marry a man who loves to cook -- and trade that domestic duty for some other duty that she favors over him. I know for myself I want to be a stay at home mom someday, but I also hate cleaning. And I cannot see any reason against a stay at home Dad, if his personality and his wife`s fit that way. I think it matters a lot more that the couple be complementary than that they each fit an ideal.

That said...it does seem really odd to expect my father to interrogate potential suitors so entirely when I am already 27 and currently living on my own. Mind you, I certainly would ask his advice a lot (I run to him all the time for advice, though his answers tend to be frustratingly void of opinions) and he probably would have plenty of questions for the poor guy, but the formal courtship structure that is being proposed just seems unnatural for women who are unmarried beyond college, and even for many less dependent women in college. It probably seems just as strange to the guys of our age, who are also used to independence.

There has to be some middle ground.

[31. Kev said the following at 6:59 PM on Apr 4:]

31

Here's the thing (and it probably relates to the grace issue others have raised):

As a single male, I'd be interested to know the GPA, credit score, and premarital sexual history of the father grilling me.

Goose, meet gander.

Frankly, these questions become less compulsory the older the single female becomes. If a girl is 21, I could understand an investigative & protective tone. Less so at 31. In fact, if the father so questions the judgment of his adult daughter, I'd question how much parenting I'm going to have to do with my future spouse.

41? Forget it. The questions better come off as curiosity, otherwise the girl doesn't have the gift of singleness but the curse of an intrusive and growth-stunting father.

[32. KJ said the following at 7:54 PM on Apr 4:]

32

I think some people are missing the point here -- by examining every jot and tittle of every question, we're missing the larger picture, that of dads wanting to know pertinent information about potential future sons-in-law.

My boyfriend met with my dad for lunch a few days after he expressed an interest in pursuing a relationship with me. (I'm in my mid 20's, by the way.) I don't know what exactly they discussed, but I know that a major function of the whole meeting was to confirm a lot of pre-existing common sense. My dad knows I wouldn't send just any old loser to visit him. And most losers walking around out there would hedge on the concept of meeting with a girl's dad. The very fact that the meeting took place was mainly a confirmation of those presuppositions. I doubt very much that it was a scorching interview.

If you want to see some daunting interrogation tactics, go read "Dad's Daughter" at nogreaterjoy.org ...

[33. Darin said the following at 8:12 PM on Apr 4:]

33

Another way to approach the questions on the list is for single guys and gals to volunteer the information up front instead of putting the other person in the awkward position of having to ask. (This is what I prefer to do.)

Also, I want to clarify something from my last comment. I'm not actually accusing the author of "the list" of being a sarcastic person. (It could be that the sarcasm was simply humor that didn't translate well to the written page (i.e. in the absence of non-verbal clues). I was simply stating what it appeared like to me when taken at face value.

[34. Chris Krycho said the following at 8:27 PM on Apr 4:]

34

Charles H. -- I think there's a difference (that's she's assuming inherently) between being in a ministry and being in ministry. One can be not involved in any particular "ministry" but still ministering. If the guy is simply wanting to go through life and have a good job and a nice home, but not interested in ministering -- whatever that looks like -- then he's not really following the Scriptures. Everyone should be in ministry. I don't see any exceptions to Matthew 28:19-20. We're all called equally to be making disciples -- and that's about more than just "living our lives for God," though that's certainly a part of it. That means investing in people's lives, intentionally sharing the gospel through both relationships and simple proclamation (and I mean actually sharing it, not using "relational evangelism" as a cover for never actually speaking the truth of the gospel), giving sacrificially, and so forth. A Godly woman has the right to expect those things in her husband. It is precisely a lack of faith, or a lack of discipline, that would lead to the absence of ministry in that sense in one's life.

God bless!

[35. DanL said the following at 8:43 PM on Apr 4:]

35

Random thoughts in no particular order:
1) Many of these questions seem appropriate to ask before a couple decides to get married, but Wilson’s post seem to be about asking them before any form of courtship (Wilson presumably not approving of “dating”) begins. I’m not sure all questions are appropriate at this time.
2) In particular I really do not like the idea of asking a man’s income right from the get go. The Where’s the Motivation Guys thread had a lot of talk about undue influence being placed on a man’s finances, and this question by Wilson seem to illustrate where such concerns originate. Yes a man is supposed to provide for his family, but this should be determinable from watching him. Asking his income level seems more along lines of wondering how often he will be able to take his family to Europe on vacation.
3) Debt is a relevant issue, but I still wonder if this is too early to address it. I actually had a lady ask about my debts once on a first date, although not very directly. I was in graduate school at the time and she remarked that I must have had to take out a lot of loans to stay in school so long. I simply remarked that my research assistantship paid for all my tuition and gave me a stipend to live off of and left it at that. I could have said that I was debt free having taken out no loans as either an undergraduate or a graduate, but I didn’t want to appear as bragging. So should I have said more?
4) I also agree with Chris Krycho that sexual histories are relevant, but again I think its too early in the relationship (relationship may not even be the right work in the context of man approaching a women’s father who has presumably not said yet). Without asking any questions of this sort, I once had a lady to confess to some past mistakes in her history after only a single date, and felt horrible that she would feel any need to reveal that at that point. (FWIW, it’s the same lady I mentioned in the Why Not Live Together? thread. (I also know that was the first date she had had in seven years, so I wonder if she was havening some problems with excessive guilt). I do think a good case can be made that a woman has a right to know sooner than a man, so maybe this is appropriate to ask right from the beginning. I’m not sure.
5) The absence of any questions about men experience with or desire for children seemed rather conspicuous.
6) As other have point out, I don’t like the way Wilson assumes that any qualified male well necessarily have attended college in question 12.
7) I would really hope that a young woman would know the answers to many of these questions before ever expressing any interest in him. The one about attending church regularly, in particular, is one that should not need to be asked. But then I am frequently shocked at the men some women choose to date.
8) I really don’t know who this hole going though the women’s father thing is supposed to work. With only one exception, every woman I’ve ever asked out has been living in another city at the time (and the one exception turned me down). There has only been one woman that I’ve had more than one date with. In that case we did take a couple trips to a nearby state to visit her parents. I wondered at the time if I should ask her father then, but he seemed to welcome me very much so it didn’t really seem necessary. We did spend a fair amount of time talking and getting to know each other, but I never thought I was being quizzed or interviewed. He never asked me any questions that sounded like they belonged o this list, but end the he end he probably did get much of the same information (he forgot to ask my salary though). I guess I don’t like this list because he seems to be about the father making up his mind about the young man as quickly and efficiently as possible rather than taking the time to get to know him. This may stem from the fact that I don’t really buy into the ask the father before you and the young woman to anything at all mindset. Especially when fathers and daughters live in different parts of the country, the father needs to trust his daughter’s judgment. By all means when his daughter starts going out with one he should work at getting to know him to help _confirm_ his daughter’s thoughts about him, but he shouldn’t immediately second guess them.

[36. Jonathan from Canada said the following at 9:24 PM on Apr 4:]

36

Shazia, I admire you for your comments. Please don't give up. God will bless you for making the tough choices that so many of us never have to make. He will give you strength if you ask for it.

As for this courting test, the questioner should probably not be looking for particular answers but for the reasoning behind answers. Looking at this like a test to be scored out of 21 is simply wrong.

For example, the college question. Maybe someone didn't go to college. Should that be a point off? No. The majority of men don't go to college. And plenty of people have low GPAs. There are some good reasons and some bad ones. Even if the questions are "not the business" of the father, why not just answer them for fun.

[37. Chris Krycho said the following at 10:01 PM on Apr 4:]

37

Shazia -

Please don't take any condemnation from this list! To the contrary, it's not meant as a slam on those who, for whatever reason, don't have the benefit of those things. The answers to those questions are to help get a feel for any possible problems. (And a guy should know if his in-laws are going to be a huge problem, or indeed simply absent as might be the case for some circumstances). Certainly neither I nor most of the guys you'll see around here would ever reject you simply because your family is where it is. Indeed, a woman who had chosen Christ even in the face of opposition from family would rank very highly for me, though I would understand that it would cause a certain amount more difficulty. So please, please don't feel any condemnation! You have little or no control over some of those (indeed, the only one you can control is whether you go to church, and I definitely encourage you to do that). No Godly man of the sort you'd want to marry would hold those things out of your control against you.

I pray you do take the step of accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior! You could make no better choice, and I pray that you will have strength to do what you must even in the face of the disapproval of your family; I can't imagine what that is like. I do know that it's worth it, though - worth any price, even our lives. I will continue to pray for you. Thanks for sharing with us a bit, for being vulnerable. :-)

God bless!

[38. Maggie said the following at 10:08 PM on Apr 4:]

38

Shazia, you wrote:
"I was reading the counterpart link to this blog about 21 Questions for a Prospective Wife and it gave me a knot in my stomach because while some of the questions are very good, some of them would inevitably disqualify me from being a prospective wife at all, and that bothers me alot. Especially knowing that my heart aches to be a loving wife someday."

I know exactly how you feel as that was my initial reaction as well. I am 26 from a non-Christian and very dysfunctional family and sometimes I feel like this will disqualify me from ever marrying a "good Christian guy" and in addition to this, I have a wild past, as I did not become a Christian until a few years ago.

That said, I don't think the list is intended to "disqualify" people with the wrong background. Any man who is considering marrying me will know me well enough to know that I have walked away from my old life and been forgiven by the blood of Christ, and will know how my heart breaks for my family. My future husband (whoever he be!) and I will have to deal with my past, of course, and that won't be easy. As to questions about family relationships, I would say they are more about observing how you treat those close to you, e.g., do you constantly bicker with family, are you rude to them or do you serve them graciously. If there are extenuating circumstances like yours, that should certainly not mean that you are not a "suitable" wife. So, take heart!

Shazia, my heart goes out to you because it seems like you are wrestling with some significant decisions. Choosing to follow a Christian life will not always be easy; in fact, as you know, it will sometimes mean signifant sacrifices. This does not mean, however, that it is not worth it. On the contrary, it is life "to the fullest." God bless.

[39. Andrew said the following at 10:20 PM on Apr 4:]

39

“Why is it such a horrible thing for a girl's dad to ask the guy questions?”

Most of these questions can be covered either before or during the dating/courtship period, provided each party is honest and is willing to communicate openly. Contemporary society actively discourages parental questioning of and/or involvement in young adult life. Fathers are especially vulnerable to this exclusion.

Nevertheless, the father has no right to forsake his biblical mandate to nurture his children. Sadly, too many fathers has violated the principles of Eph 6:4 (“Fathers, do not exasperate your children”) and Col 3:21 (“Fathers, do not embitter your children”).

I’ve seen this by fathers who (a) actively favour one sibling, (b) allow the mother to make all parenting decisions, (c) belittle, humiliate, degrade or ignore one siblings achievements, (d) avoid parenting responsibilities through work, hobbies or even voluntary service at community organisations like Scouting.

Doubtless all the parents here will remind me how hard parenting is. I have no doubt that it is hard. But some fathers do passively allow their daughters to be emotionally damaged through avoiding and abrogating their responsibilities.

There is the scriptural admonition to “respect your parents” to consider. All of us are flawed people. But the continuance of parental authority would have to be questioned where neglect has scarred a daughters heart and strained familial relationships.

Some posted comments give another perspective on this. Where the parents are not church adherents, role models will be lacking. Both may not know what values and behaviours a husband and wife ought to aspire to. This is a difficult place to start from and I encourage men and women not to lose heart. Where a healthy parental influence is absent, I would hope that couples will study and seek out mentoring for their relationship.

Finally, where the daughter has moved away from the family to escape a toxic parental relationship, I would have to question the parents continuing to have authority over the child. Why should they be permitted such given the existing emotional damage they’ve caused? Assuming everyone is still on speaking terms (and not just exchanging Christmas cards at 100 paces), asking for parental blessing of the union prior to marriage may be more appropriate.

It tears at my heart to see the damage caused to God’s children by parents who fail to realise the consequences of their actions. I pray for wisdom everyday that if I become a parent I will exercise authority wisely, lest I become responsible for causing my children to stumble or fall through my flawed influence on their lives.

Thoughtfully,

[40. Darin said the following at 10:45 PM on Apr 4:]

40

Shazia, let me begin by saying that your courage is amazing. Scripture tells us that we must be willing to leave father, mother, son or daughter to follow after Christ...yet few people here in the United States ever have to make that kind of sacrifice for their faith. You are a rare gem.

In regards to the questions that you are concerned about, I don't see them as disqualifying you in the least. These are situations that were beyond your control.

I think that the important question to consider is how you are dealing with those issues...and it sounds like you are dealing with them very courageously. Another important step in the process of dealing with those issues is to develop a support network.

When you accept Christ, you are adopted into the family of God. You have brothers and sisters in Christ and spiritual parents (or mentors) to help you through the difficulties of life. Do you have a church family? If not, perhaps the Boundless staff could help you to locate one in your area. (I'm sure they would be delighted to if you ask them.)

The other thing to remember is that Christ is there to lead you through your difficult times, heal your hurts and forgive your sins. There's no need to "clean ourselves up" before approaching him because "cleaning us up" is his job. We can't do it on our own. (He can even help you to deal with the family issues that you are facing.)

So, please don't feel like you've been disqualified by your family background or anything else. Christ is the one who qualifies us and he's bigger than all 21 of the questions on that list combined.

God bless and thank you for your participation.

[41. xeres said the following at 11:26 PM on Apr 4:]

41

I can related to your pain, maggie. Although I didn't lived a "wild life",I came with a difficult history. I often feel like I don't have what it takes to be a wife. However, those are feelings and no one is an unwanted fruit. It's hard to keep thinking that way when Satan will use our bad histories as a weapon.

[42. Cathy in NOLA said the following at 1:38 AM on Apr 5:]

42

Some have commmented on the appropriateness of some of these questions very early in the relationship (most recently DanL). The whole idea is to know as much about a suitor as possible before there is any kind of attachment. People vary in what will be a deal-breaker. A girl who has kept herself pure will likely find it very difficult to find a man who is, too. She may not be willing to go forward in a relationship with that kind of baggage. If you only make enough to barely live on, that should be known right off the bat, too. Why bother intentionally pursuing someone with marriage in mind if you can't support a wife and children? Romance and mystery are fun but honesty is worth infinitely more.

As to knowing about a person from church, I think we'd all be surprised at how little we really know others b/c we don't ask such direct questions. As for letting the pastor do the asking, frankly, in a courtship situation, that's not his job. The father is the one in authority and answerable to God for who he transfers that authority to. Unless there's something tremendously wrong with his relationship with his daughter, a pastor's care cannot substitute for a father's love and wisdom.

For those who would like a more fleshed-out view of Wilson's courtship idea, read his book, "Her Hand in Marriage." "Future Men" is also excellent when determining what kind of man you want your son to be (or your daughter to marry).

[43. Irene M. said the following at 6:23 AM on Apr 5:]

43

Two quick questions: why are only men responsible for asking these questions? I could understand if both sets of parents or both sets of fathers asked the potential couple or the potential couple asked eached other, but it seems odd that one is given by a parent and the other is given by a suitor. It's not consistent and has some sexist implications.

Also, on the "21 questions for young men", what does it spiritually and emotionally mean if a woman answers no to rule #5? "Does she have a close relationship with her dad? With her mom?"

[44. Justin said the following at 8:25 AM on Apr 5:]

44

These are all questions that would be answered in the course of a relationship.

But you don't just sit down and fire off these questions right off the bat. It's called the "getting to know each other" process.

[45. me said the following at 8:30 AM on Apr 5:]

45

Irene M: You asked: "Two quick questions: why are only men responsible for asking these questions?"

I was also wondering this -- I've been reading Boundless for a while and I've been trying to figure out their beliefs in this area.

The way I understand it, Boundless believes that a woman must obey her father until she is married (and she then must obey her husband). Because a woman is under her father's authority until she's married, her father must give her permission to date any man. This is why it makes sense for the father to ask these questions.

On the other hand, Boundless does not believe that unmarried men are under the authority of their parents. Because unmarried men are permitted to make their own decisions in the courtship realm, they can ask the questions themselves.

If I'm wrong here, I would appreciate some input ... but the beliefs I just outlined are the logical conclusion of what's been advocated in this article (and others), so I don't see how Boundless could *not* hold them.

[46. Dan said the following at 9:32 AM on Apr 5:]

46

Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more.

I hope that is true in my life and perhaps future spouse's life someday.

[47. Marci said the following at 9:39 AM on Apr 5:]

47

Charles H,

I understand why you're puzzled -- I should've elaborated! I think all Christians are called to some form of ministry. I don't believe that the only qualified ministries are in my home church only, either -- I'm quite open to a man telling me that he volunteers at a shelter somewhere, or is involved in mentoring with youth at a community center, etc. I'm very open to a man who also helps prepare snacks for junior church and is consistent, or helps out with AV equiptment at church lol -- as you can see from the types of positions/roles I've listed, my desire that a man be in ministry is not about getting a man who is in the often more lauded and ministries of pastor, bishop, etc.

The *point* for me is that as Christians, we are given lots of teaching and people are constantly pouring into our lives so we grow spiritually stronger. And there comes a point in all of our lives when we become so full, so spiritually fat, that if we do not give back and work our spiritual muscles, we will become spiritually obese because of our inactivity.

A spiritually obese man is not the man I desire as my husband! For me, and man MUST have reached this point of giving back; to be honest, I think it's also a natural response that grows out of our thankfulness to God for all he,and the mentors he's sent in our paths, have invensted into us! And any ministry will do, as long as he feels called to it, is committed to it, and is genuinely trying to grow in it -- all the while being open to when God may lead him towards other areas of ministry, whether new, or deeper in the one he's currently involved in.

I hope this helps! And responses are, as always, welcome..

Blessings to you!

[48. Shazia said the following at 9:49 AM on Apr 5:]

48

To answer Darin's question: I have a potential church family (that is, I have a church in mind), but since I am living with my parents right now (even though I am 27), my father would really be mad with me if he found out that I was going to church. (He comes from a Muslim background, even though it makes me uncomfortable to admit this somehow -- and I am really uncomfortable with his relatives ever finding out that I do not want to be Muslim).... It's really hard to keep him from being suspicious of what I am doing if I all of a sudden decide on a Sunday morning, for each week, that I'm going to "go somewhere." I did graduate from college a bit later than most (when I was 25) and it was really hard for me to get a job even though I was in a good field because the market in my area was tight and I ended up getting this temp job about a year later, which lasted for about 6 months, and now I am seeking something more permanent because it's really hard for me to living in a non-Christian home where being a Christian would feel oppressive. The problem is that deep down in my heart I do not care to be this independent woman, living alone in my own apartment, feeling lonely, and hoping that I don't have to live that way my whole life unmarried.

I understand that Boundless agrees that a woman lives under her father's authority until she is married and it is the father who gives approval for the man who courts the daughter. Maybe Boundless would understand that some situations are not conducive to this opinion held by Boundless. For instance, how can the woman's father be involved if the woman's father is not Christian and forbids his daughter to either be Christian or marry one? Obviously someone else must be involved on the woman's side, but what if she does not have family on her side that will support choice for a Christian man?

As far as finding a church, that is always something in my mind but as long as I am living under the authority of my father, the possibility of going to church without him suspecting is slim to none. It hurts very much on a weekend because I would like to meet more friends. I have two good friends right now. But one of them moved away last year to a far away state, and the other one I do see once a week. But she is married and she does not have a lot of time to see me except that one time during the week. Luckily, I live near a very large university campus that has many churches around, where I am certain may have enough "younger" people attending. I don't want to be ending up attending a church where most of the people there are settled down. A huge part of me (or rather, almost all of me!) would like to attend a church where there might be enough singles but from what I read on the internet, those churches aren't easy to find that makes me very sad. I just thought that maybe since I live near such a large campus, that the churches next to it might have a suitable demographic because it is possible that many of the people from the campus religious organizations might be attending these churches. I don't know. Maybe it's all wishful thinking!

[49. Becky F. said the following at 10:04 AM on Apr 5:]

49

I didn't really read the comments, since there's 40something already, but I agree with John M. that I hope the woman would have asked the man similar questions herself. That's what dating and getting to know a person is all about. I know I asked all my boyfriends similar questions, and definitely asked my husband these types of questions on our first "date".

[50. Marci said the following at 10:11 AM on Apr 5:]

50

Hey Darin,

I've been thinking about your comment that this list of questions might discourage, rather than encourage, men to initiate courtships etc with godly women. And on the one hand, it may... but I think what it might more likely do for the godly man is make him take stock of his readiness for marriage.

In our culture, marriage has been devalued. Decades ago, a man would have never DREAMED to ask for a woman's hand in marriage without making sure he was in a position to trully take care of her. Now we are living in a society where women their own jobs and careers (I, for one, think this is great!). The problem is, at the end of the day, if the woman loses her job -- and is unable to find another one for some time -- it is her husbands duty to ensure that her and any children who have been produced are taken care of!

The seriousness of marriage is far too often overlooked in Christian circles -- I see fathers allowing men to marry their daughter who haven't proven they have basic finacial means/responsibility to handle marriage, talk less of if a child comes! Then when havoc ensues, the people who enjoyed the wedding food but kept silent about missgivings want to gossip -- this is wrong. This is why courtship is ideally entered into only once people are in a position to take on not just the joys of marriage lol, but the practical day to day runnings of marriage - spiritual, emotional, financial, etc. I'm sure the no one at boundless is so busy trying to spur men on to action and initiation of courtship that they want them to do so before they are adequately prepared! These questions give insight into what a father -- GET THIS -- has the RIGHT to ask!

Some of the posters seem to have forgotten that as women are under the authority of their fathers, it's not a matter of 'oh well, then I guess I don't want to marry into that family' -- ANY father has the right to ask these questions! Lets not forget the biblical hierarchies that are in place!

Men MUST feel the weight and responsibility that becomes theirs the day they say I do!

Here's a boundless article I feel explains what markers a man who desires to be married must have -- it may be that after you read "For Guys Only: The Marks of Manhood" most of Wilsons questions will seem more than fair...

http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001093.cfm

Blessings to you!

[51. BDB said the following at 11:08 AM on Apr 5:]

51

For the record, I never complained about being asked hard questions.

Though it's not always the father asking them. A couple of years ago one of my relatives go married in Las Vegas, and a few of us flew in for the wedding. No one from the groom's family came. But after two days, the poor guy was just exasperated with us. When I finally got around to asking him what he did, he exclaimed, "I have a good job! Why do people keep asking me that! I'm a Teamster -- I drive and have opportunities for advancement!"

We eased up on him after that. A little. But at least he understood beyond a shadow of a doubt that we were paying attention!

[52. Charles H. said the following at 11:33 AM on Apr 5:]

52

Marci, Thanks for the clarification about volunteering as ministry. That makes a lot more sense.

Now in response to your subsequent posting (I'm not trying to pick on you, honest! =) I think we need to be discerning about this question of paternal authority. Boundless has made some pretty broad claims regarding how a woman's father is entitled to partcipate in her search for a husband, but if I recall the courtship debates correctly, the justification for many of the suggestions came down to "this makes sense and is a good way to do things." That's not the same as a Biblical mandate.

In cases like Shazia's (or my own, for that matter, were I a woman -- substituting an atheist father for a Muslim) then we were told that a similar figure, such as a pastor, ought to be substituted. But here again, is this actually described in the Bible or is this our own fallible reasoning?

And oh yeah, Shazia: There are plenty of ways to immerse yourself in the Word. If you can't get to church service just yet, can you join a Bible study? Can you get online sermons from someone like Ravi Zacharias (sp?) or James Kennedy? I can tell you're really hungry for the Word.

[53. Gina said the following at 12:19 PM on Apr 5:]

53

Jake -- in which men and women are not considered equal?? I sincerely hope I read that wrong, because in Christian theology, men AND women are equal in the eyes of God. Not like, but equal (see Madeleine L'Engle on that distinction).

I'm all for chivalry, but chivalry is not about inequality.

[54. P&P said the following at 12:20 PM on Apr 5:]

54

I'm with the poster who said that this is age relative. I'm on my own and do not ask my parents for financial support, so I don't expect them to control my personal affairs. I understand that they don't want me to be hurt and to find a helpmate, but at this point in my life, my father has to abide by my decisions, not the other way around.

I only think this mentality applies if you're dealing with a 35 year old man expressing an interest in a 20 year old woman. At that point, it's essential to not only protect her emotionally, but also financially. I also think that fathers should spend more time raisng young women to be strong enough to ask these questions on her own -- after all, dad isn't going to be around forever.

Frankly, I now ask men some of these questions and I expect them to do the same for me. Love may cover a multitude of sins, but it doesn't pay the bills.

[55. Darin said the following at 12:31 PM on Apr 5:]

55

Marci, I agree with you that a father has a right to seek the answers to the 21 questions and that the suitor should be ready to give answers. However, the father DOES NOT have the right to be confrontational, sarcastic or disrespectful about it. He should speak to the young man with the same respect that a father would (should) give to his own son.

Perhaps the author is assuming that fathers will read that courtesy into his list of questions...but the reader DOES have to "read courtesy into" what was written.

I think that we are in agreement on this issue. We are just drawing different conclusions about his implied approach.

[56. Mark said the following at 12:51 PM on Apr 5:]

56

As a guy who has a few things in his past that he is not too proud of, getting asked this list of question WOULD be a major deterrent to dating a godly young woman. I've been beaten up before on my bad choices and I flinch at having to go through it again. While I totally respect the right of the father to tend to his daughter's well-being, airing the dirty laundry too early in the relationship can distort the person's character.

In Tommy Nelson's "Song of Solomon" study, he mentioned that you should have a conversation about each other's past transgressions, but not too early on, and then proceed to leave it in the past (that's a rough paraphrase.) If brought up at the start, then all the other person sees are these sins, and not how the person is living now. Past sins (particularly "the big ones") are important to know, but don't necessarily define the person as they are now.

I like to go with the mutual fund disclaimer of past results not predicting future perfomance.

[57. Kyu said the following at 1:07 PM on Apr 5:]

57

Shazia,

I've been married for six months now. I grew up in a very strong Christian home; never went through a time of rebellion or committed serious sins before God (by His grace). He protected me from harm, and guided me all my life. Our family had peace. It was a gift from God, no doubt.

My wife grew up under Buddhist parents. Her father took her to Buddhist temples, played recordings of Buddhist chants in the house, and constantly reminded her of Buddha's goodness. She hated everything about Buddhism. Contrary to her father's wishes, she started secretly attending church during junior high school, even though her father threatened to disown her if he ever caught her following Jesus. Then, one day, while she was at a Friday night service, she got a phone call from her younger sister who told her to come home right away. Her father found out she was at church. He flipped out and all *h*ll* broke loose in the house: he found her Bible in her desk, ripped it to shreds, and tossed in the trash. During the subway ride home, my wife (in tears), raised up to God her extremely distressed cry for help, asking for strength. Even after all her years of being the passive and obedient firstborn, at the moment of confrontation (unable to look up into her father's eyes), she confessed to him that she loves God, and that she will continue going to church. She distinctly remembers him not having any response to what she said, perhaps he didn't hear her clearly, or perhaps he was so taken aback by her defiance (her first and only defiance) that he didn't know what to say.

During those years, my wife wondered if she would ever be able to marry a Christian man someday. That was her heart's desire. All she wanted was the chance for her future family to worship God together in her own home (and we have that now every night, just the two of us, praying together and praising God with our not-so-talented voices). My heart's desire was for a wife who loves God over everything else (including her earthly family members!). When it came down to it, she laid down her earthly father-daughter relationship for her relationship with the God of the universe. That was what mattered to me, not the length of her church attendance or her parents' positions at the local church. It was her testimony and her purity (which you yourself have honored God with) that swept me off my feet. She told me her testimony on the 2nd day of my 4-day trip to meet her for the first time. We entered into ‘informal’ engagement on the 4th day (as my father had to also meet her a week later to make it ‘official’), and got married 3 months later.

Shazia,

You are at a good place. You are at a place where you can only surrender to God because there's nothing else you can do. May God continue to give you strength as you pray for the salvation of your family. It was meant for the father to be the spiritual head of the family, but God has placed you in this blessed situation, and equipped you with powerful prayers to lead your family into His kingdom. May God grant you soon, like He did with my wife, a husband who will lead the peaceful family devotions at home, where prayers flow continuously without end (and we will pray for you!). We don't know where your future husband is, and you may or may not find him at your local church. So please keep at it with godly wisdom, doing what you can when you can, but also realizing that God is ultimately in control.

[My wife attended a church of thousands of people, with hundreds of singles. I've lived and attended churches (big and small) in the northeast, midwest, and west coast during the past ten years. Neither of us have ever had a boy/girlfriend. Yet, God brought us together somehow... And by the way, she is from another country.]

[58. Mike Theemling said the following at 1:34 PM on Apr 5:]

58

Interesting discussion.

First I am glad that the guy and girl list are for the most part "even handed". At first I was wondering if this was another example of assuming the worst of men and the best of women, but overall both seem to focus on the same issues (relationships with friends/family, money issues, sexual history, etc). And these issues are relevent. For example, Christians (and others) seem to downplay the importance of financial compatibility despite it being a major stressor in many marriages.

Still, Jake, Bethany, and others have brought up the legitimate point that some of the questions they do seem adversarial in nature and pretty much it's the "guilty until you prove yourself innocent" routine which honestly no one likes. Who wants to be assumed the worst about them? Reminds me of the polygraph setup in _Meet the Parents_.

What's important as some has pointed out is the PRESENTATION of these questions. If they were all asked upfront verbatim or given in a written format (expecting you to use a #2 pencil) then anyone I think would be rightly turned off by this for two reasons: 1) It DOES imply that there is a minimum score threshold and depending upon your assumptions very few would "pass" the test. 2) Even if it didn't assume 1) it plays the immediate comparison game with people.

Let me expound. Say 2 guys, A and B approached a father regarding daughter X. They are both given the test. Guy A scores reasonably well (passes) but is very attractive to daughter X. Guy B scores extremely high (because he grew up in a monestary [just kidding]) but daughter X isn't all that attracted to her. Now, which should the father recommend for courtship?

Most people here I imagine would say A simply because we have that modern mindset of "we should let the woman decide ultimately" and "there's more to romance/marriage than just pratical reasons". But in generations past B would've been the clear winner and the father would not let the daughter even consider A despite her feelings for him.

So I'm wondering if as a whole we really are ready for this "courtship" movement. If we talk courtship but act like dating then it's really no different from what we've been doing. And I wonder what Pastor Wilson would do considering this scenario.

Sidenote: I still think that either method is perfectly acceptable so long as both are adhering to Biblical principles. No method is fulproof against being hurt emotionally; it's the risk one takes in love and putting your heart out there.

[59. Darin said the following at 1:56 PM on Apr 5:]

59

Shazia, I have a couple of scripture verses that I hope will encourage you:

"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life." Matthew 19:29

"God sets the lonely in families, he leads forth the prisoners with singing..." Psalm 68:6

In a manner of speaking, you've been made a spiritual prisoner in your own home. But I believe that God wants to lead you forth and liberate you. We don't know yet what God's plan is or what his timing will be...but He does have a plan.

It sounds like you're already looking for that "liberation plan", but you're discouraged by the thought of being alone. That fear is understandable. But I believe that God wants to place you in a family...with brothers and sisters and spiritual mentors.

As far as having the authority of a father in your life, many people have reasons that they can't go to their biological father, so they adopt spiritual parents (mentors) to fill that role. And I know that there are godly couples out there who would be most proud to serve you in that way.

For now, it sounds like you're doing all that you can under the circumstances. The only other thing that I would recommend is if you're able to get in touch with a local pastor (perhaps during the week) and tell him of your situation.

In addition to their wise counsel, pastors generally know a lot of people so they are a good source of information on jobs, affordable places to rent, people who are looking for room mates, and so on.

Also, please don't feel ashamed by your background. As Christians we are taught to love those who don't agree with us...and that includes Muslims. The angels in heaven rejoice upon receiving you into the Christian family and the rest of us rejoice along with them.

God bless and you are in my prayers.

[60. V said the following at 2:15 PM on Apr 5:]

60

Shazia -- continue in the Lord. You will seek guidance and you will find guidance. Jesus has told us that he has left us His Spirit -- the wonderful counselor. I empathize with your struggle. I encourage you in the name of the Lord. Try as best you can to meet with/talk to other Christians, that you may be encouraged. I will pray for you.
Though not of the same situation, when I was younger (by that I mean, a teenager), I found myself feeling similar -- that because of my own family background, why would a Christian man of a Christian family want to date me? (I was holding myself to the same standard that was to be held for the men -- "does he come from a good, believing family?") Thankfully, I have come to understand that it doesn't matter. I am a believer; if someone were to have chosen not to marry me because of my family, it would be their personal choice,and not my fault. :-)
Now, another issue: I have many a friend who began a relationship with a young man their parent(s) disapproved of initially -- even for quite some time. The same parents that could not STAND the young man in the beginning, grew to love him incredibly **over time** (sometimes, even a whole year, or more), and the couples eventually married and are happy and working out their lives. What does anyone have to say about that? Should they (the ladies) have given up those relationships because the parents disapproved initially? Because, perhaps, the young man did not answer the list of questions to the parents approval? And, also where/how do we leave room for grace (if need be)? I understand a "Soul is Like a House," and these things must be highly considered -- but where does one have "faith for the man he'll become" -- or honor for the man he has become, in spite of the past? It seems a little tough sometimes. Sometimes it seems like there is a bit more grace extended to the females with pasts than the males. I wonder if it leaves the men feeling discouraged, and the women feeling confused if the man in their life is one who has difficult answers to some of the questions. Just some thoughts.

[61. S said the following at 4:35 PM on Apr 5:]

61

Jake,

(with thanks to Gina for mentioning it). You say you "advocate a return to traditional sex roles where women by and large are not in leadership positions, but rather remain in the home." I'm sure if that's what you are seeking in a wife, you could certainly find a woman who has the same goals, but you seem to want all of society to shift back with you!
Do you believe such discrimination in hiring should be codified in the law? If you believe that women should not have leadership positions, do you also believe that they shouldn't pursue graduate level education in medicine, law, business or any other field? Or do you feel that if they do pursue such paths, should they be warned going in that certain positions will be forever closed to them, ("Sorry ladies, you may be good, you may be brilliant, even, but there's a limit and above this limit you may not pass, even if your skills and talent and everything else, found in a man, would make you more than worthy.")? Would you support such attitudes in hiring if they were based on race?

ChristianityToday had an incredible article on submission: http://www.christianitytoday.com/singles/newsletter/2007/mind0321.html

Explain this "true traditional morality" in which "men and women are not considered equal". I am not familiar with it.

[62. Marci said the following at 7:12 PM on Apr 5:]

62

Charles H,

Your comment was interesting, and I've been thinking about it. I think what this boils down to is what you believe the father's role to be from a spiritual perspective. Fathers are the representative of God in the home, and are supposed to be the protectors of all those who live therein. Symbolically, when we marry, the authority over the woman passes from her father to the "new" man( husband). Given that this is the case, does there not seem to be a precendent that the father -- prior to marriage -- has the spiritual authority to aid the woman in her choice of the spouse who will take his role? He is her parent/authority figure, and has the role *until* she marries, at which point she obviously submits to the authority of her husband.

The fathers *job* or role is not completed until he has successfully handed over protection of the daughter to her husband. Not just any joe will do lol -- the father *hands over* this mantle of responsibility -- and I think this teaching has become stronger in the church as people realize that this is not a light role, and parenting must be taken seriously even at this juncture.

No? Yes? This does seem to be the spirutal principle that is at play here in the very set up of families and the notion of 'giving away.'

Of course, I realize, as another poster mentioned, that if the father has been abusive, etc, the young lady may want to find a mentor or pastor who can protect her heart as her biological father was mandated to by screening out men, too. And of course, I think that women should ask questions themselves, too.

Your thoughts are welcome!

Blessings to you!

[63. Marci said the following at 7:16 PM on Apr 5:]

63

Darin,

I agree -- no father should be rude. But I think the guys should be encouraged -- if the father is a Godly man, why would he want to freak you out by being unkind and rude? My father's traditional, but he is a kind, respectful man and would and has asked questions of suitors in a friendly, conversational type of way....

I think father's aren't as scary as some of y'all might think lol...

I do think our other points largely meet, as well

Blessing to you!

[64. m Castillo said the following at 12:15 AM on Apr 6:]

64

1928??? is that when this post was made? Was this made by someone who has grown up in our society? My debt history and GPA is between myself and God and the pride I put into working hard... Back in the land of 'real world' where people divorce and Christians don't always act perfect, people aren't so crazy... my girlfriend's parents are Christians but oppose her going on the mission field and her dad has a psp... some of these articles aren't helpful at all

[65. LauraZ said the following at 3:30 PM on Apr 6:]

65

I disagree with some of the comments posted...I don't think the questions are a problem at all, and even if the answer is my GPA was low, my credit score is bad, and I'm still unsure about my future...I would hope that the guy would then be able to respond with what those "negative" experiences, and possibly immature actions taught them about responsibility...As a young woman who has also not always made wise decisions, I would have to say that my credit is bad...and I'm still dealing with the consequnces of that past sin, but I can also say that the Lord has drawn me closer to him through that, and I now better understand the importance of teaching my children about financial stewardship...

[66. Ariana said the following at 1:38 AM on Apr 7:]

66

Ted,

It seems that what "anonymous" is saying is not that "If I were just godly enough, then God would give me a husband," but that articles like the aforementioned appear to conclude that those with troubled backgrounds are not together enough for marriage--almost by virtue of the fact. The myth is talking about women thinking that it is the Lord who is requiring a certain mysterious level of godliness before He will grant their desire to be married. But Anonymous seems to be talking about a certain standard that Boundless and others like it can seem to be setting up for getting to the altar.

For instance, the questions directed toward the women mentioned in the post, "So you want to court my daughter," ask things such as, "When she begins to be more like her mother in 10 years, will that be a good thing?" Or, "Does she look up to and respect her father? Does respect come easily to her because of her relationship with him?" Though the answers to these questions will probably reflect a person's character, they won't necessarily do so. Many times, what lists like these do is they presume a certain type of "Christian" background and effectively make that backgroud nigh unto a necessity for being a mature person, or a person ready to be married. (note: actually, the list for the men wasn't that bad. I thought that the questions for the ladies were more close-ended)

Also, I don't think that many evangelicals realize this, but lists like the ones we are discussing are almost necessarily aimed, not simply at believers, but at believers within the Christian sub-culture. There are scores upon scores of people who did not grow up in the Church (i.e, their families are not Christian, or they have a spotted past). And if the Church is doing it's job, that should be the case. But in churches where adult conversion is common and many people have such stories, people would not as easily assume that a person's mother or father were people to be modeled or to be in a close relationship with, which at least one of the questions presumed. And again, to go back to what "anonymous" wrote, that really can be discouraging if you happen to have a non-Christian background with a number of bad elements in it. Christians should not underestimate the type of pressure it can put on people who weren't raised in the church to come against a culture that can imply (unintentionally, I'm sure) that you're not really living a deeply Christian life, or not able to experience the fullness of God's will in your life unless you have a certain background. (sounds extreme, but that impression can definitely be subtly given).

Yes, wise Christians will understand that the Lord truly changes people and brings them through adversity. But I still think that if the author were being more mindful (and realistic even), he would write a list that got more at how that person has dealt with life in general, whatever it has contained.

[67. Ted Slater said the following at 7:59 AM on Apr 7:]

67

FWIW, Ariana is responding to a comment I made on a different thread, in which I wrote:

Anonymous -- Please read Suzanne's article that we published this week: Seven Myths Single Women Believe. One of the common "myths" is exactly what you describe in your last sentence -- "If I were just godly enough, the Lord would give me a husband."

No, God blesses us despite our sinfulness. And he doesn't withhold his blessing just because of our falling short. He's an inexplicably generous Lord.

Anonymous had written, "I am starting to think that perhaps marriage is only for those who have it all together and haven't messed up."

Again, I have to disagree with that conclusion. None of us has is all together. All of us have messed up.

As I wrote there, I still maintain that those with sinful backgrounds (wouldn't that include all of us?) are not excluded from being the recipients of God's grace. None of us is, as Anonymous wrote, "disqualified from marriage."

And as has been written earlier, the series of questions are not meant to be a "true-false" interrogation, but a way to open up a conversation between a father and a young man interested in his daughter.

[68. Charles H. said the following at 8:46 AM on Apr 7:]

68

Marci - It sounds like you're reasoning more from the contents of the wedding ceremony than from the Bible. This doesn't mean your conclusions are necessarily *wrong*, only that I don't think it automatically follows that they are God's way of doing this. At any rate, I'm not saying that fathers should be *uninvolved*, only that I don't see the Bible compelling a particular method or exact degree of involvement. It appears that it is left to our discretion as Christians. It is certainly to be hoped that a father will choose to offer his guidance and help for a daughter as she finds a husband, and that their relationship will be such that this will be both (a) a good idea and (b) one that is accepted. That, however, still leaves a broad range of options for *how* he chooses to help.

So, why do I bother with what sounds like a semantic argument? Because if it's *our* reasoning and not God's, then we have a lot more latitude in adapting it. In other words, if God says "do it this way," we need to try to do it that way. But if we're just doing it this way because it seems best to us, then we're free to say things like "This woman's relationship with her mother (sister, brother, etc) is much closer. Mom/sis/whoever should interview the guy." Or, alternately, "This woman is mature and self-supporting, and is essentially capable of doing her own screening." I've known both types, and the best example I knew of the latter (quite a Proverbs 31 woman, btw) had parents who would have been completely unsuited to any sort of spiritual guidance for her: they were not Christian and appeared to decide about prospective suitors based on some sort of astrological silliness. Again, if it's God's will for him to do the screening, I have to make the best of it. But if we're to decide on a case-by-case basis who the "screener" is, it sounds like it's our own logic at work. That's all I'm saying.

[69. Danielle said the following at 11:50 AM on Apr 7:]

69

istm this question list is all about discernment. "the heart is deceitful above all things," says Scripture, and it is true. It is in *anyone's* best interest to ask others to help discern whether a potential mate is a good match. And as sexual and financial issues are the 2 main things over which marriages crumble, it would be good to know beforehand where each other stands on esp. those 2 issues. I think the sexual questions are especially needful in the climate today.

Of course, anyone could hide anything and appear innocent under questionning... but istm someone who is older, wiser, and whose passions aren't flaring, would be better able to discern lack of integrity and problem areas.

[70. Vesselformercy said the following at 12:12 AM on Apr 8:]

70

Truly, I am surprised, (and somewhat turned off) by many of the responses listed here. As a single girl under my father's protection, I would be honored and feel very protected were my dad to “grill" suitors that come my way. How foolish I would be to wish my dad to be more “gentle” in order to keep from “scaring” away some guy! The truth is, if any young man is “scared” or “intimidated” by such a grilling, he isn’t worthy of having, holding, or protecting the very treasure he is seeking (i.e. a wife). Marriage is permanent; it is a father’s DUTY to ensure with every fiber of his being that his daughter is given to a man of integrity, honor, and character. What better way is there for a father to understand the depth of a man’s character (or lack-there-of) than to ask direct, personal questions?

A god-fearing man should not be afraid of answering direct questions. In reality, a god-fearing man should be encouraged by such a grilling because it will be a tell-tale sign of the family he is seeking to become a part of. Chances are if a father is going to be so bold in investigating the character of a young man, he has likewise been direct in confronting his daughter on character issues, ensuring her readiness to fill the role of a godly wife and mother.

[71. Darin said the following at 9:48 AM on Apr 8:]

71

Vesselformercy, suppose that a guy brought you home to meet his family and the mother took one look at you and said, "So...how many guys have you slept with?" "Do you know how to cook?" "And how about your spending? Do you spend all of your money on clothes and having your nails done?"

I can guarantee you that if someone put up a post that advocated such rude behavior toward women, virtually every guy on this site would be writing in saying "This is insanity! Sure those questions need to be answered...but this approach is rude, tactless and downright meanspirited."

Honestly, I'm surprised (and somewhat turned off) by the fact that a few of the commenters here don't think that guys are deserving of even the most basic level of courtesy. (I'm not speaking of all women here as I know that some were simply reading courtesy into the questions.)

Consequently, I don't have anything to hide and I would GLADLY answer those questions if asked appropriately. In fact, I would answer them even if they were asked in a rude and tactless manner. (But I would be watching closely to see the young lady's response to her father's rude and tactless approach. After all, no guy wants to be married to a woman who thinks that he was made to be a doormat.)

[72. Ame said the following at 11:15 PM on Apr 9:]

72

Shazia - I've been following this thread loosely ... this may be of interest to you . . .

Have you heard of Afshin Ziafat (http://www.afshinziafat.net/)? He grew up Muslim, became a Christ-follower, and was disowned by his father. His story is incredible. I've heard him share his testimony, and it changed my life in ways different from yours.

Here's the online link to a sermon he preached in a church in Atlanta and shared his testimony: http://www.northpointministries.org/player/player.jsp?occurrenceID=1406

I do not know the life you live, however I have had to choose Truth over a relationship with my family. Though my family claim to know God, they do not accept the reality that they have been and are abusive. The last time my parents were here, four years ago I think, my dad started hitting my kids - 3 & 5 yrs old at the time. I told him he could NOT hit my kids, EVER! He said he didn't hit my kids. I told him, "I saw you hit them; you may not hit my kids!" Both he and my mother totally denied he did anything wrong at all and still deny any of the abuse of every kind they did to me. It is very, very sad.

When I listened to Afshin, I realized that when God calls me to become more "public" with my testimony, my story, then I will have to do so despite the fact my family will deny the truth and deny me. It is hard to swallow - because they will (and do) call me a liar. I am not a liar. I know what they did; I was the victim. Now I am the survivor. Now, I go by Ame out here in cyber space. Someday God may call me to become more public with my story, and I will need to make the choice to go by my real name.

Also, another huge part of my story is the way my ex husband abused me and his deep addiction to pornography. When I become "public" with this information, it will be under the distinct direction from God. I have much to consider ... my children do not know right now. Someday they will, and I want them to hear the truth from me. My ex husband's life is another consideration. And, his family - his parents are retired, career, foreign missionaries and his brother is a national missionary.

Yet, someday, when the time is divinely directed by God, I know God is going to use my life on a wider level - and the stories woven within to reach others going through the same. Pornography is so prevalent - it leaves many innocent wives (and innocent husbands as women are also addicted) in its wake. Porn is also raising the stats on child abuse of all kinds, and I was abused in every way.

I cannot imagine at all your situation. I have Muslim neighbors whom I absolutely love, yet I do not understand all their ways. I do, in my own way, know what it is like to choose the Truth of God over my family, and to loose most all of my family in the choice.

To Ted and Motte - I realize there is a lot of info in here - feel free to edit if necessary.

Dear God, I lift Shazia up to You. Keep drawing her intimately to You in such unique ways that she knows she is looking in the face of The Almighty God who is alive and who loves her deeply and who knows where she is and the weight of the choices laid before her. Fill her with Your strength to choose You alone, Jesus, as the blood sacrifice for all her sins and her Savior. Fill her with Your Wisdom, God, in knowing how and when and where and what to share with her family. Surround her and cover her with You, Lord, as only You can. Thank You for her willingness to take such a huge step and be so open here. I love you God, Ame

[73. Leah said the following at 12:15 AM on Apr 10:]

73

I know this is pretty off-topic, but it's something I think would be an interesting discussion point at Boundless, and maybe by posting here it'll get noticed instead of the deluge of emails to the editor that go un-noticed.

In Candice's recent Boundless Answers post, she said "There's a lot of changing and maturing happening between freshman year and when you graduate. It's not likely you're still going to be interested in the same guy at 23 that you were at 15, 16 or 17."

Does this bug anyone else? For starters, who said 23 is the magic age at which you will suddenly know who is suitable to be your spouse and who isn't? And what about some of Boundless's own contributors- Bethany Torode comes to mind- who got married before 20? And does this mean that the friends you have in high school won't be your friends 5 years down the track, because the people you're interested in at 17 won't be the people you're interested in when you're 23? I'm 19, and I've had friends for 19 years. I've matured an awful lot in that amount of time, does that mean I'm no longer interested in the same people?

If the Boundless editors choose not to publish this, I totally understand seeing as it's pretty unrelated to the blog, but I'd still like to see it addressed. And maybe there could be an exclusive email for the Boundless Line seeing as emails sent to the Boundless email address get ignored?

[74. Leah said the following at 7:57 AM on Apr 10:]

74

Oh, I also think these questions should be asked of a young man only if he's already courting the daughter and is actually looking to marry her... so, in other words, "So You Want to Marry My Daughter" rather than "So You Want to Court My Daughter".

I think it's far too upfront, intimidating, and rude even, to ask these questions of a young man who is not even courting her yet. And as for "but if he's a real man he'll stick through it for the girl"- well, if they're not even courting yet, he might not know the girl so well, or be so in love with her that this wouldn't scare him off, and that makes him no less of a man.

For example, I'd go through that type of questioning for my boyfriend who I want to marry, but would I do it for a guy I was merely interested in courting? No way.

[75. Aaron Shackelford said the following at 9:03 AM on Apr 10:]

75

Assuming the father wants to sit the guy down and ask these questions all at one time or over the course of several "meetings", how about the man saying "I'll be glad to answer any questions you would like to ask me, but only if out of mutual respect for each other, you'll answer the same questions?"

[76. Shazia said the following at 9:48 AM on Apr 10:]

76

Wow Ame thank you so much for this link; I could always use inspirational links such as this. It would be cool to find more links like that. Anyway I guess I wasn't writing as much in this blog as I had previously, I sort of lost stamina to write more but I did keep on reading.

I do not want to digress too much but there are times where frankly it is difficult for me to read things on Boundless because it does tend to focus on marriage/dating/courting articles and everytime I read it I keep feeling like I've missed the boat in marriage and stuff, because being 27 and never having had a boyfriend, and constantly struggling with sexual desires, is making me wonder whether or not I have to suffer (yes, I do have to use that word "suffer") these desires for the rest of my life. I'm still trying to decide how much I would like to read things on Boundless because ever since one of the articles here made me literally cry (it was called "Cost of Delaying Marriage" but I forgot who wrote it), I've felt really sad ever since. Maybe the article was directed at those who are purposefully delaying marriage as opposed to being unable to get married due to "it's just not happening for me yet even though I would like it to." I don't know. But still, that article hurt my feelings a lot but I don't want to really "hijack" this blog thread because I want to essentially keep it focused on what the original topic was.

[77. John said the following at 9:48 AM on Apr 10:]

77

On the one hand, I like to think of myself as a stand-up guy, and my instinct would be to look her father straight in the eye and answer his questions (he might not like some of the answers).

On the other hand, it also occurs to me that my own parents do not know the answers to some of those questions. How weird would it be to tell a potential in-law (still a stranger) things that even my parents don't know about me. (Or, if her father happens to know my parents, will my answers get back to them?)

[78. BDB said the following at 11:30 AM on Apr 10:]

78

Leah, you wrote:

>>Does this bug anyone else? For starters, who said 23 is the magic age at which you will suddenly know who is suitable to be your spouse and who isn't? <<

That's a good question. Let me take a stab at tying it into the topic.

Take for example the questions about debt and student loans. They shed some light on how people make choices with the resources God has blessed them with. How people handle money says quite a bit about their priorities.

When I got my first real job after college, I got a 401(k). I had to pick a beneficiary. I suddenly realized that many of the "fun" people I knew in college were not people I could trust to manage my money if I was incapacitated. So, I discovered new values after age 23.

The questions are designed to force to the surface patterns of behavior. If you ever watched the MTV show, "Parental Control," you can see some amazingly slacker guys who nevertheless get the girl. One hopes that they will both grow up eventually.

[79. Mark said the following at 11:39 AM on Apr 10:]

79

I'm with John.

For whatever reason, I've never had a full-disclosure relationship with my parents. They assume they taught me how to make proper, God-pleasing decisions (which they did) and that I'd respond accordingly. Over the years, I've strayed from the path and regretted decisions that I've made. Am I supposed to tell my parents about these times? Am I supposed to tell my future in-laws about these times? Am I supposed to tell the parents of a girl I'm interested in dating about these times?

Were the relationship to get serious enough, I would obviously let out the secrets to my future wife, but who else really needs to know? I've confessed my sins to God and apologized to those directly hurt. Is there something else I'm supposed to do?

[80. Darin said the following at 12:30 PM on Apr 10:]

80

Shazia, I think that the article you mention was directed more toward women who are intentionally delaying marriage. I believe that God sends us opportunities according to His own timing. By intentionally delaying marriage we are essentially trying to force God to conform to our own time line and we're taking it for granted that God will comply with our demands.

In your case, I believe that God's timing is different. Had God sent a good Christian man too soon you may not have been ready. Had you tried to get ahead of God's timing, you might have married someone outside of your Christian faith. But you have honored God's timing and I believe that your reward will follow. Only God knows when it will happen, but I sincerely believe that it will.

[81. Ame said the following at 12:47 PM on Apr 10:]

81

Shazia,
Your feelings are valid. It is difficult to read "instruction" about that which you cannot control.

I wonder, have you ever heard of the Sovereignty of God? Believing God is Sovereign is essential to understanding the character of God. That God is Sovereign means that He is in absolute authority, absolute control of everything everywhere all the time and always has been and always will be. It does not alter our free will.

God is Sovereign over your life. He is, in a sense, *courting* YOU! He is wooing you unto Himself so that He might draw you into intimate relationship with Him. He longs for you to choose Him, to choose to love Him over and above everyone and everything ... including your family.

That God is wooing you unto Him, and you have yet to choose and be sold out to God, sheds light on one of the possibilities that you are still single.

See, the Holy Bible, in II Corinthians 6:14-15 tells us not to be unequally yoked ... or, one who believes in Christ should not marry one who does not. Perhaps, God is waiting until you choose Him ... then He will draw a man to you who follows Christ, too, and you will be equally yoked in your marriage.

Shazia - do you own a Holy Bible? If not, I believe I am correct in stating that you can conntact Boundless, a division of Focus on the Family (www.family.org) and they will provide a Bible at no charge to you.

As you read your Bible, God will reveal Himself to you, personally, right where you are, within your situation and circumstances, and you will have the freedom to choose to know Him. He loves you deeply, more than you can imagine. We cannot understand your sacrifice to follow Christ, but Christ can; He understands it intimately. And He can guide you on the path to Him.

Another thing about Boundless, they are essentially from an American point of view and founded on biblical concepts. These same biblical concepts will translate directly to where you are, however, the way you read what is written here may be difficult. Boundless addresses cultural issues in this American culture that concern the foundation of the family according to the Bible. The Bible is the never-changing standard we base our lives on. Yet, our circumstances and culture will greatly impact our needs and the way we view the Bible and the way God teaches us through His Word. Don't worry, God is bigger than all that. He can take His Holy Word and meet you where you are. God's Holy Word transcends time, space, culture, people ... it is eternal, it is solid, it is real, and it is alive and relative to you, where you are, right now.

Dear God, continue to draw Shazia into Your arms. Reveal Yourself to her in ways only You know she needs, and enable her to choose You. I love You, God, Ame

[82. Riqui said the following at 12:55 PM on Apr 10:]

82

Shazia,
You said: "...everytime I read it I keep feeling like I've missed the boat in marriage and stuff, because being 27 and never having had a boyfriend, and constantly struggling with sexual desires, is making me wonder whether or not I have to suffer (yes, I do have to use that word "suffer") these desires for the rest of my life..."
My roomate's mother put it like this--we are suffering for righteousness sake.
You, me, my roommate, my sister, and many other godly women (and men) are exactly where you are. So, first off, take heart, you are not alone. Second, I don't think we've quite missed the boat and I am really working on not "blaming" the Christian guys around us (or in my little world). I know that a few of the articles and posts in the past year or so places blame at the feet of the church, our current culture, and previous generations (Getting Serious About Getting Married) and at the feet of guys (Where's the Movtivation Guys?) I see a lot of fault all the way around--me included. However, God hasn't changed. He is still in the business of "directing us in the way we should go" and He "knows the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."
So, while we're "suffering for righteousness sake", I will pray for God's perfect timing and try to encourage my brothers and sisters.

[83. Ame said the following at 1:00 PM on Apr 10:]

83

Shazia - I believe the meaning of your name is "fragrant." What a beautiful name ... and how profound.

In order for frangrance to be released, the flowers or herbs or plants must be crushed. It is in the crushing that the beautiful fragrance is released. In history, people would plant herbs in the walk paths of gardens so that when they walked upon them their fragrance would be released from the crushing weight of their feet.

As you allow God to *crush* you, draw you to Him, mold you into His image, your beauty will be enhanced and your life will release a fragrant aroma that will rise to heaven and bring joy and honor to Christ Himself! Beautiful :)

[84. Shazia said the following at 1:07 PM on Apr 10:]

84

Darin I will certainly agree that the article was focused on women who purposefully postpone marriage. The ramifications of such a thing hurt me so bad while reading it even though it is not in my heart to purposefully postpone marriage. I just wonder whether the overall outcome described in the article (that is, the sadness experienced by the woman as she gets older) is the same for someone who ends up never marrying, whether it is purposefully done or not. I don't know if I am making any sense. Oh well. However you have a point on something: if I had attempted to defy God's true plans for me I would have probably married outside of the Christian faith but somehow, as agonizing as my lonely single lifestyle seems to be (this could be subjective - some people feel less agonized over this issue than others), the thought (for ME at least, anyway) of being unequally yoked with someone presents me with the thought of a very lonely marriage indeed. It would be just as lonely as being single because I wouldn't have anyone to really pour out my heart and soul about God the way I would like and it would not be able to enhance me spiritually since I am trying to DEVELOP more spiritually every day. I guess that this type of marriage, for me at least, would be just as lonely as being single.

[85. m Castillo said the following at 2:50 PM on Apr 10:]

85

I still think that part of this and people on here disregard most peoples' reality. My girlfriend's family has teased her about being a missionary. When they were going to move to Arizona, they expected her a 20-year old with roots in ministry and school, to just get up and move. They went back and forth between saying they would pay for school or not.
Then they said that they would pay, took out a student loan and then when it came time to take out the loan said she would be paying for it... and yes they are Christians...

A lot of us don't have great families, grew up with godly people mentoring us or parents that even encouraged us to finish school (my case). I just wish there was a more broad perspective on this board... I hope that was neither too personal and clear.

[86. m Castillo said the following at 6:14 PM on Apr 10:]

86

Leah,
I know your comment was way back, but Candice has a point about the age difference.

I changed tremendously from 19 to 21 and from 21 to my old age of 24 and this next year will be full of change as I finish school, figure out when to get married, figure out whether to go to seminary or grad school, whether to seek a job abroad or stay here.

She's got a good point that you'll see in the next few years. I for one, have found out more about myself and passions the last few years. I've volunteered for Invisible Children, learned a lot about how certain ministries should be ran, etc.

[87. jack haff said the following at 10:51 PM on Dec 23:]

87

There is a really need for folks to read the Word of GOD more, and books by "experts" like Doug Wilson less.

Much less, maybe not at all if your time for reading is limited. Don't neglect studying God's WORD for the "wisdom" of man, especially Doug Wilson.

[88. Jo said the following at 10:18 AM on Dec 24:]

88

I'm surprised no one on this thread brought up the 'problem' of young women who don't have a father around. My Dad died last year, so who is meant to ask future potential husbands these questions now? My Mum? My younger brother? Whose 'authority' am I now supposed to be under, as a 25 year old single woman? Way to completely ignore a huge percentage of the unmarried female population.

Personally I would have been mortified if my Dad had ever dared to grill a guy I was interested in like this. I agree with the commenters who said a father should get to know the guy, not give him the third degree. I would have loved for my future husband to ask his permission to propose to me, but there you go.

The idea of one man being responsible for a woman's welfare before she marries is ridiculous in my opinion. The father has an important role, but he's not the only one who counts. When I find the man I will spend the rest of my life with, I expect ALL my family, my pastor and my friends to want to get to know him and to be looking out for my best interests, and I will do the same for them.

[89. Jo said the following at 10:22 AM on Dec 24:]

89

Incidentally, is there ANYONE here whose father would seriously ask a possible son-in-law, "Have you ever participated, whether experimentally or otherwise, in any sexual perversions? Homosexuality? Molestation of children? Bestiality?"? That's not exactly an easy topic to casually drop into conversation.

[90. Ted Slater said the following at 11:48 AM on Dec 24:]

90

Jo -- as Pastor Wilson states in his first paragraph, "A list of questions like this ought not to be use in a wooden checklist fashion, but rather as a list of ideas to get started." No, no father is going to ask that series of questions verbatim. My father-in-law, before I married his daughter, did ask me similar questions, about sexual promiscuity. I answered him; he's her father, after all.

Regarding the concern you express in the previous comment, elsewhere we've talked about what a single woman might do if her father is not around. She could ask a male family member to be her mediator, or a pastor, or mentor, etc.

All sorts of options. You're free to go with one or disregard our counsel altogether. It doesn't bother me one bit either way, to be honest. I hope that's helpful, Jo.

[91. Jo said the following at 5:14 PM on Dec 24:]

91

"It doesn't bother me one bit either way, to be honest."

Why not?

[92. Ted Slater said the following at 6:14 PM on Dec 24:]

92

Jo -- I'm responsible to God and my employer for the information I provide. I'm unable to take responsibility for what our readers do with that information.

I am affected, I admit -- but only a little -- by those who disregard what I write. It's my prayer, though, that those nuggets that are God-inspired are taken to heart.

In other words, I'm not going to argue with you that you should take our counsel. You're free to take what you find relevant and ignore the rest. Hopefully some of it is relevant and helpful. Seriously.

[93. Louise said the following at 8:39 PM on Dec 24:]

93

In my opinion, it would not be appropriate for a prosecptive parent-in-law to grill a daughter/son's partner about his/her sexual history.

[94. mar said the following at 8:31 AM on Dec 25:]

94

My first instinct upon reading this post was to somewhat freeze up and feel put off. I was glad to read, however, that this wasn't actually supposed to be a "wooden checklist." Of course I believe fathers should be very careful about whom they allow their daughters to court. *However*, it needs to be done in a respectful and tactful manner. (I know I'd certainly be offended if my father decided to grill someone and prepared a checklist beforehand.)

[95. Richard said the following at 7:40 PM on Aug 5:]

95

Is this list of 21 questions really meant to be taken seriously ????

If a person really is of bad character, wouldn't they just lie thier way through these questions anyway ?????