Imus
by Ted Slater on 04/13/2007 at 2:09 PM
Jonathan from Canada provided a subtle hint that we should start a thread on The Imus Situation.
I really don't want to, since there are so many complex issues surrounding what's happened, and as a result it's inevitable that there are going to be misunderstandings among those commenting. And tempers will likely flare.
That said, it does puzzle that one person can lose his job for saying something that's ignorant and racist, while others make millions of dollars for saying the same and worse. Perhaps it's just our free market at work -- a vulgar left-wing shock jock (he voted for Kerry, for example) is proving a liability for a network and for corporate sponsors, so he's dropped. That's fine. But if we're going to advocate cleaning the airwaves of this debasing filth, let's be consistent and address cleaning the airwaves of defiling music like that found listed on the link above.
What concerns me most about this situation is how some are using it to call for a crack-down on other talk shows, rather than addressing the cesspool of vulgarity that's bubbled to the top of the Billboard Hot Rap Tracks chart. Outlets such as talk radio and blogs and forums are like release valves on a boiler; If Americans are unable to voice their opinions through these particular media, some of them may find other, perhaps more violent, ways to express their opinions. This feigned dismay and concern over debased speech is facilitating a chilling effect on free speech. And that's not just not fine, it's outright dangerous.
A final thought: I am holding out hope that individuals such as Sharpton and Jackson will soon come down hard, publicly and consistently, against the popular rappers and the labels that distribute their filth (Capitol Records, Columbia/Jive, Crunk/BME/Reprise, Warner Bros., and others) who profit from denigrating society.
1. Lee said the following at 3:10 PM on Apr 13:
I totally agree, and I've been saying the same thing since this whole thing started. He gets branded a racist (by true racists, I might add. Caucasians aren't the only people capable of being racist.), and gets fired, but if a rapper said it, people would wonder why he's being so clean.
Hasn't the desire of the Black community for many, many years been equal rights? Why should 50 Cent, for example, get treated any differently than Don Imus?
2. Jeff said the following at 3:36 PM on Apr 13:
Well said, Ted. Michelle's blog post was right on.
3. Esther said the following at 3:42 PM on Apr 13:
I don't like what he said, I think it's despicable...however it is his first amendment right to say whatever he wants. Imus is a "shock jock" after all, does anyone really expect him to have any sort of integrity? Too bad that he didn't have Kerry's press agent to let this "botched joke" go over better.
If I held a press conference every time someone said a racists/sexist/religious derogatory comment towards me, I would be booked from now 'til dooms day.
Too bad the real winners of the NCAA Women's Basketball Tourney are going unnoticed. *Go Lady Vols*
4. Tom said the following at 4:30 PM on Apr 13:
Rap/record companies expect their artists to say vulgar things, as that is what sells. Over the air newsbroadcasters expect their personalities to keep basic decorum, as that is what keeps people from overly protesting. This is not a free speech issue whatsoever, and there shouldn't be anything too puzzling about this.
Oh and why does it matter that he voted for Kerry? Am I the only person who reads boundless that gets a lil annoyed when the writers start pushing too much politics into this? Especially the implied viewpoint that anything Democratic = liberal and evil and Republican = good and virtuous...
For what it's worth, I cannot think of anyone worse than Ann Coutler, who says something about God in one sentence, and in the next says something about hating some group and how we should kill them all. Many of my non Christian friends have a bad impression of Christians because of personalities like her that make us all seem hateful people, which makes it that much harder to share the gospel. .
5. Julie said the following at 5:39 PM on Apr 13:
I just wanted to make a note of something, more of a bit of apparently unknown info. This isn't about his first amendment rights at all. The first amendment is about freedom of expression, including speech, yes. But the amendments are protection from persicution from the government. If any rights are being violated, it's the station's right to property. They have a right as the owners of that "property" or station, to allow or not allow anything they want. So long as it's not illegal of course. When we make it about first amendment rights, we actually LOOSE first amendment rights because people start wanting restrictions on what we can and can't say and do in public.
6. Jonathan from Canada said the following at 6:03 PM on Apr 13:
[I'm not so convinced this is a free speech issue either, much in the same way that Boundless moderating comments isn't a censorship issue. The state isn't responsible for restricting Imus' speech... at least until they pull out the "fairness doctrine" stuff again.]
Otherwise, I think Ted is dead on that this is just cover for the racist and sexist rap/record companies. Who's going to seriously take them on? Not whites. Apparently that'd be racism.
And on degrading music, I hope blame isn't entirely put on the people up top. After all, it's consumers who buy the filth. Going after executives is just another sign of a society that shirks individual responsibility.
7. Crystal said the following at 8:37 PM on Apr 13:
First of all, in response to Lee, black people can't be racist. Racism is an act of power. It occurs when a group in power attempts to subjugate a group that has less power. That said, black people can be bigoted, prejudice, discriminatory, biased etc., but the one thing we can't be is racist. We aren't in power. As a whole we don't try to dominate other groups. I know I’m going to get a lot of heat for saying this, but racism is deeper than merely disliking another group, it is a systematic and legalized attempt to suppress them. Because of the historical subjugation of African Americans and the present battles with ubiquitous institutional racism, when white people make derogatory comments such as those made by Imus it opens wounds that have never had a chance to properly heal. Minorities are tired of it! If the Imus comment were one isolated incident, perhaps I wouldn’t feel as strongly about the matter, but Imus has continuously made inappropriate comments about African American people, women, Jews, gays, and even the handicap (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_controversial_Don_Imus_quotes_on_women_and_minorities) Imus was fired because of a series of volatile remarks, and people everywhere were just fed up.
Slightly off topic, I have to totally agree with Tom when he says that Boundless is becoming too polarized. Liberal doesn’t equal bad any more than conservative equals good, that’s a lesson that I believe many of the writers and readers of Boundless need to understand.
Another thing that is distressing to me is when people act as if rap music is the only music that has negative content. Rap is an easy target but it shouldn’t take the fall. We live in a world where most of what is on television, in movies, and on the radio is evil. Our media is saturated in sewage. I say this not to justify what the rappers are saying, but to illustrate that they are not the only ones at fault. It’s easy to blame it on “those black guys” even though much of rap music is purchased by suburban white kids. I’m all for cleaning up our media. Frankly I’m tired of all the garbage. Don Imus should be fired, rap music needs to be cleaned up, but let’s not just blame the African American men. ALL MEDIA is soiled and that’s a truth that transcends color. And let’s take some of the blame ourselves. When we purchase profane music, when we watch sordid TV shows, and when we buy tickets to these distasteful movies, we are promoting the things that we as Christians are supposed to oppose. If people weren’t supporting the garbage it wouldn’t be profitable and thus wouldn’t exist. If more people wrote the TV and radio stations and demanded wholesome entertainment, the filth would start to dissipate (Imus is a perfect example if this). Please don’t blame the black rappers for all the filth that plagues our media. Let’s take some personal responsibility here, I know I do.
8. Leah said the following at 9:01 PM on Apr 13:
...what's the Imus situation? Is it just an American thing?
9. Ted Slater said the following at 9:01 PM on Apr 13:
Julie -- I agree with you.
That's why I didn't use the term "First Amendment," but rather alluded to how the snowballing responses to Imus and other talk shows have the potential of fostering an atmosphere of persecution that may result in a "chilling effect" on free speech.
I'm afraid that as a result of this frenzy to shut people up, there may be a groundswell for restrictions on such free speech (e.g., the Fairness Doctrine).
While I would mind that, I wouldn't mind a bit of restrictions on the dangerous trash being put out by some rappers and the media moguls who distribute it.
Leah -- follow the second link on the original post. It'll give you some background about Imus, a big-name American talk show host who has been around for decades and has made a career out of being vulgar. He was just fired for calling some female basketball players some bad names. Now some people are calling for the firing of anyone who says anything "offensive" -- anyone except those who introduced this particular vulgar vocabulary.
10. Ted Slater said the following at 9:11 PM on Apr 13:
Crystal -- are you saying an individual cannot be racist? I believe an individual (with power, without power) can be racist, not just (as you write) "groups."
Regarding my noting Imus's political slant -- I wanted to cut off any suggestion that he's a "right-wing shock jock." He's not. So let's not go there and write off all "right-wing" talk show hosts, putting them in the same category as this vulgar man. That's a Straw Man.
Finally, the reason I (and others) reference rap is simply because that is where this vulgar vocabulary is coming from. There are white rappers as well as black rappers (and Asian, Latino, etc.) -- some of them contribute to this disintegration and degradation of society. Imus didn't make up the words he used; he got them from the rap subculture (and Spike Lee, apparently).
Of course, there are good rappers, who are a blessing to society.
11. m Castillo said the following at 9:42 PM on Apr 13:
In other suprising news, I was watching the Anderson Cooper show last night and all the coverage of the issue and was suprised to find good reporting as well as a CBS board member saying that they need to evaluate how much tolerance of filth the media has. I would've never watched CNN but my little lady had it on.
On there they talked about how this hip hop sub-culture is taking root and all these kids are living the "prison" lifestyle. I've seen many a kids dressing like that even at my University. Even besides that, whenver I play basketball at my local gym or even at my university, people tend to want to get in fights. Maybe it's cause I'm short and white, but I have people starting fights out of nowhere with me. Even this week this guy is purposely trying to hurt me and play dirty so I finally called a foul and he gets in my face like he's going to try and start a fight! I didn't even do anything! It's a byproduct of what we are talking about here, all these wannabe gangstas.
Aside from freedom of speech, I think the outrageous thing was that he randomly targeted these girls, it's not like he targeted mainstream woman who had a rep like that.
12. Ariana said the following at 9:52 PM on Apr 13:
I will second Crystal's point about racism. However, with respect to Ted's question, Yes, individuals can be racist in the sense that any individual person can think that his particular race is superior to another, or that a particular race as a whole is inherently inferiror. However, racism in a social context does require power (and those rappers aren't being "racist" anyway). What black rap stars say to one another and to their communities, and what a white talk show host says to the nation cannot be compared given the history of this country.
Also, there is a difference between those rap lyrics and what Imus said in that what Imus said was a racially derogatory statement directed toward a specific group of women who exist in real life, not these fictions that rap stars come up with. Despite what the rap lyrics say, black women don't tolerate men calling them any of the words that rappers like 50 Cent call women in their songs. And perhaps that's where Imus messed up. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he heard those songs, thought he actually understood the dynamics within the black community and thought he could copy what he heard, when in reality he didn't and probably still doesn't understand at all.
The backlash against Imus isn't because he said something vulgar and we need to clean up the airwaves, but because he deeply insulted a group of women, and the black community as a whole, with that statement. And it is the type of statment that touches a very sensitive nerve in the black community, and with good reason.
13. Laura said the following at 10:22 PM on Apr 13:
This isn't about free speech. It was a market decision, pure and simple. From what I've been told by colleagues, Imus has been saying hateful, shocking things for years. The only difference now is that it became bad business for CBS Radio to be seen as supporting someone who says such things. Up to this point, CBS Radio was making money off of Imus. When they started to lose major advertisers, they fired him.
The only reason record labels and Hollywood produce so much garbage is that there are millions of people willing to buy it. Money talks.
14. Leah said the following at 10:52 PM on Apr 13:
Crystal, you said racism "occurs when a group in power attempts to subjugate a group that has less power."
Absolutely untrue. Racism is discrimination based upon a person's race.
I did a "google define" on racism and came up with...
"a form of discrimination based on race, especially the belief that one race is superior to another"
"The inherent belief in the superiority of one race over all others and thereby the right to dominance"
"An attitude, action or institutional structure, which subordinates a person or group because of their color"
"Judging an individual based solely on his or her racial affiliation"
Eg- if a shopkeeper refused to sell something to a customer simply because they were black, that's racism. Or, just like Hitler believed Germans were a superior race. Individuals are more than capable of racism.
15. BDB said the following at 10:59 PM on Apr 13:
Leah:
Oh, thank you for injecting some needed perspective! I think it's just an East Coast American thing at that...
Does anyone have Satellite radio? I'm guessing that Howard Stern is still on the air...
16. Michele said the following at 11:42 PM on Apr 13:
The First Amendment protects the right of freedom of speech from being trampled on by the government - not by private entities such as the CBS broadcasting company. So Imus was taking his career into his hands, not his Constitutionally-protected (not given, I should add) rights.
But back to the actual post - I agree. The outrage over what Imus said should spread to other, worse things that are said/sung/rapped. It's intellectually dishonest to feel that what Imus said was offensive and inappropriate, but not if it's said by someone else. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson don't rush to Michelle Malkin's aid when certain epithets are thrown her way - and they certainly were quiet when Condoleezza Rice was ridiculed in a particularly offensive manner.
17. V said the following at 10:36 AM on Apr 14:
Racism is indeed institutional -- for years those in higher power have (and sadly, continue) to oppress, repress, hold down, slow down, discourage (fill in the blank) those "below" them who tend to be of a different color, race, ethnicity. There are systems of domination in place, and sadly, racism and discrimination tend to blanket all of a people (look at the immigration issue today. Somehow people have lumped "immigrant" and "illegal" together. And mind you, who are the immigrants we tend to identify? No one is talking about Europeans immigrating to the U.S.) Today, perhaps, those racial systems aren't as open and blatant as Brown v. Board, segregation, racial disenfranchisement, etc. But racism does still exist often in the subtlest forms. Take for instance, studies that have been done taking the same exact resume, and changing the names to those that are more racially/ethnically recognizable -- Sara Lee, Jonathan O'Leary for instance, versus Jahaira Rodriguez, Shaniqua Johnson, etc. (Those names are strictly made up -- if that happens to be your name, its strictly coincidental :-) Resumes with more Caucasion-appearing names were picked up much more often than the others. That's not to say that we as a country have NOT progressed at all -- it does serve as a reminder however, that we are not nearly "there" yet.
I will say however, that individuals can be racist, regardless of your skin color/ethnicity. Reverse racism exists much the same -- I've experienced it myself. Racism is much more than black and white. Racism exists within groups as well -- its called Intraracism. (Read some excellent novels from the Harlem Renaissance that bring these issues to light). Racism exists between and within all cultures and subcultures. (Look for instance at the Trujillo regime in the Domincian Republic years ago. It was racism broken down and within their own people in a horrible sense). We should be aware of this and not be blind to the fact that it still exists. In Re: the language we choose to use: The Bible says that from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. What we say, for the most part, reveals what's in our heart. That's not to say we can't make mistakes (we all know that we are capable of serious blunders), nevertheless, it challenges us to think about subtle ideas we have that are harmful and hurtful to others. We have to educate ourselves. Understand the society we live in and begin making changes ourselves -- it begins with my attitude and view of myself and others. And it's needless to say, for the Christian, the Love of Christ should be our guide. To love our neighbors, as is his command.
18. Fred said the following at 1:02 PM on Apr 14:
In response to Ted re: his response to Crystal - of course an individual can be racist - but that's not Crystal's point. There is a completely different dynamic going on when a member of an oppressed group makes a comment about itself in its own language and context and when a member of the dominant group attempts to use an oppressed group's language. This mismatch between speaker and language is what Imus was trying to poke humor at and what makes Ali G funny. The problem is that certain aspects of urban black culture are so pervasive - they are a major force in pop culture. And we as non-black consumers, in the lines of what Crystal was saying, love to embrace the negative aspects of the culture such as violence, drug use, misogyny and sexual promiscuity because it allows us to partake in it as an escape without having to truly identify ourselves with it. In so doing, we fuel the rap music labels. Rap music is not popular because of black people - its popular because of white people.
19. Marci said the following at 2:28 PM on Apr 14:
Ted,
As someone who studies race diligently, I must say that while African Americans can be racist, there is quite a lot of truth in what Crystal is saying.
More to the point: I am tired of everyone blaming rap music for the ills of the world! This is yet another way that people often imply that black people are once again "the problem". What about some of the content in Rock music?!? It can be exteremly degrading to women, advocate inummerable abuses to onesself and others, etc.
Moreover, black people can say things about their own race that would be derogatory if another race said it because they are speaking from within the culture, whereas were a white individual to make the same comment, it would be in question what his or her intent was (ie. are they racist?). This might seem unfair, but this is a part of the politics of cultures, and is certainly not unique to black culture (almost any culture has facets of itself that function in the exact same way).
But all in all, this targeting of Rap music is becoming a form of scapegoating that is not useful, and merely reinforces stereotypes that as Christians we shouldn't be espousing...
I really, really don't think this form of scapegoating was your intent, so this is just something to think about/be aware of in future posts, etc.
We should, however, clear the airwaves of a lot of the junk out there - we just have to be careful not to start trying to blame one group or type of music for the sins of the many.
Blessings to you!
20. Marci said the following at 2:46 PM on Apr 14:
Ted,
P.S. When I say that African Americans can be racist, I mean along the lines that ANYONE can be racist. I am an African Canadian, so obviously I'm not making any racist attack against African Americans by making this statement.
But you're also right that we can't generalize the "right wing" - good call.
21. BDB said the following at 4:36 PM on Apr 14:
Point to Ponder: Governor John Corzine of New Jersey was on his way to mediate the meeting between Imus and the Rutgers basketball team, the object of his comments. Corzine got into a serious car accident. Did God intervene on purpose, or was it just an accident?
22. Bethany said the following at 10:09 PM on Apr 15:
Different groups getting away with saying different things has always been the case. Blacks can make black jokes and whites can't. Asians can make Asian jokes, etc. Women can bash men as much as they want, while men cannot women-bash (see "Men R Fools" chapter in Dobson's "Bringing up Boys.") Basically, the historically oppressed group can usually say whatever they want, while the historically oppressive group cannot. This is a difficult issue as far as the hip-hop/rap culture lyrics are concerned, but I have the feeling that because of money, it will only continue.
One clarification: it is not a 'black culture' vs. 'white culture' thing with the language in so many lyrics these days. There are plenty of blacks who *completely* disagree with calling people n--, b--, and h--. It is the younger, hip-hop generation that has made this cool, but it should not be generalized to the black race as a whole. Just like Imus doesn't represent the sentiments of all white people, those who endorse hip-hop do not represent the black culture. To go further, I think it's ridiculous that Jackson and Sharpton are considered 'mouthpieces' for African-Americans. How absurd is it to imply that all blacks think alike and agree with them?
Finally, I don't think anyone can really consider this issue without watching the video of Coach Vivian Stringer's press conference in response to the incident. This incident was not about the Rutgers Women's Basketball Team; it was about women and young people in our society. There are so many negative stories about young people all over the news. Then you have a group of intelligent, determined, devoted, hard-working young women achieving great success, and they are denigrated? Madness! The links to her videos are here:
(Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd6dsrxd_Qc
(Part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCRtBi25Bxg
The 2 parts total 20 minutes.
23. Tomi said the following at 10:41 PM on Apr 15:
Hmmm, instead of discussing America's socio-economic racist white heterosexual male power structure that allows men like Imus to even have a radio show in the first place, lets blame rap music.
Instead of discussing the historical, current, and institutional racism that allows even the possibility of Imus not being fired, and leaves that decision to rich white men who luckily for us black folk did the right thing, lets shift the discussion to denigrating the evils of hip hop!
Instead of questioning why, in 2007, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are STILL called upon to speak for, represent, defend, and negotiate on behalf of an entire race of people, lets blame hip hop! Come on, who's with me? Apparently Boundless and the rest of the media!
NEWS FLASH #1: The violent imagery and misogyny in Hip Hop is a reflection of the society that we live in as a whole, not the cause of it! If Hip Hop ceased to exist, I'm pretty sure not much would change. The typical James Bond flick is just glorified violence and misogyny in shinier more digestible White male packaging.
NEWS FLASH #2: Regardless of whether the rapper is Black, White, Asian, Latino, or Purple, Hip Hop is still "Black music," and will likely remain so no matter the extent of cultural appropriation (look it up). And if one looks at the historical time line of Hip Hop, one might notice that it became more violent and misogynistic when it became more mainstream and had to appeal to white suburban kids, who are still by far the largest consumers of mainstream hip hop.
NEWS FLASH #3: Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are not President and Vice President of the United Black States of America! I was hoping Boundless wouldn't stoop to the same level as the rest of mainstream media. Giving TWO men the responsibility of denouncing every issue that affects Black people (men AND women) is ridiculous.
While I'm sure they appreciate your concern, I'm pretty sure the free speech rights of rich white men are NOT in jeopardy. The only difference is now people of color actually have a say and can speak out without fearing for their lives. You only have to "watch your toungue" if you actually harbor racist/sexist views: What's on the inside WILL eventually come out.
And "feigned dismay and concern?" PLEASE speak for yourself only. I'm disappointed that Boundless didn't take the (delayed) opportunity to denounce Imus's statements and to facilitate an quality discussion of racism. The easiest way to shut down a discussion of racism is to:
--complain: "yeah that was racist but what about all those rappers, they're just as bad and nobody is doing anything about it!"
--become indignant: "What about our free speech rights? White people are the REAL victims of political correctness!"
--deflect: Deny that you (or whoever) is a racist, no matter WHAT was said or done.
Ted: PLEASE don't tell me you actually linked to Michelle Malkin? In my mind she's public enemy No. 2, right after Ann Coulter. White supremacy can come in all colors! Ironically, Michelle Malkin is in the same league as those rappers you blame all the ills of society for regarding making money off of racist hateful speech. Regardless of what specifically you were linking to, I think its kind of irresponsible do so without at least a disclaimer.
Anyway, I'm done pulling my hair out, I'll go back to watching Glenn Beck and throwing coke cans at the TV. Has anyone else noticed how primetime CNN has suddenly morphed into Fox News? I call it Foxification.
24. Adam Sloope said the following at 6:39 AM on Apr 16:
“First of all, we ain't no old-a** white men that sit up on MSNBC [the cable network home to Imus] going hard on black girls. We are rappers that have these songs coming from our minds and our souls that are relevant to what we feel.” –Snoop Dogg
I fear that the rap industry and so many other urban things have become blind to the horror that their grandparents went through. If Imus was released due to pure principal of degrading these young African American basketball players, then this principle must be consistent. I was mesmerized by a show I watched on B.E.T. the other day that was having this same debate amongst a college professor, young college student, Christian pastor, and Muslim theologian. The issue at hand or the beast that revealed itself again is the word Niger in its various forms. It is ridiculous that a word is offensive if it ends in “er” but is a term of endearment if it ends in “a”. The black culture says it is okay for them to use it because it comes from their history, but is it really okay for the rest of the world to sit by and watch a culture that has come so far digress back to using this horrific word so many lost their lives to abolish. The African American community has conquered the race issue and still has never found resolution because this word is smudging the line between disrespect and cultural trend. I have no good explanation of why calling a friend “nigga” is acceptable in the black culture, it is just states that it is a term used in today’s culture, but what is the reason, is it turning a negative into a positive or what? Ephesians 4:29, Do no let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.” If there are any African American Christians commenting, please tell me how using that detestable word fits into this scripture. I hate the word, it created barriers between beautiful creations of God and the scars are still visible in our culture today, why use such a word?
By the way, I do agree that Imus’s comment was inappropriate.
I say to Christians, your political views are opinionated and therefore don’t really have any solidity in being put on any blogs or websites, keep ‘em to yourself unless there is a biblical principle for being left or right as a general rule.
Crystal- I agree that the consumers help this nasty market to keep using such vulgar racial terms. What I have experienced growing up in a 70/30 black/white culture is that it is easier for the black culture to point fingers at the white man than take responsibility for taking what MLK Jr and others fought so hard for and bringing it back from the grave. The black culture tolerates this word and racial slurs within their culture, which is sad, but are outraged when anyone outside of their culture uses this word that is no less or more powerful used by anyone, the fact is the word is negative and should not be used EVER by ANYONE.
25. Jessi said the following at 9:18 AM on Apr 16:
Ok folks, this is what I found on an online dictionary defining racism:
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races
Bottom line, racism is hatred, pure and simple. And everyone is capable of hatred in my book due to simple human nature.
First of all, I have to agree with Crystal about vulgar music, because people actually tried to JUSTIFY Imus's behavior on the airwaves by saying it wasn't as bad. NEWS FLASH! It's all equally bad. Vulgarity is vulgarity, and God views all of it the same way. IT IS SIN.
Doesn't matter what color you are, because hatred goes deeper than what you look like or what culture you come from. And that is something that is true of all humanity.
I am fed up with this right wing/left wing madness. As Christians, we are in the same family and body of believers. Let our fights be ones of spiritual warfare against wicknedness, not against who's in power and who's not. The last time I checked we are supposed to PRAY for our leaders in authority over us, even when they make decisions that are not right. That is not a right wing/left wing thing, that is a BIBLE THING.
And let's be honest. Blaming rap is not going to address all the issues of vulgarity in American culture, because it's not only coming from rap culture. Rap is the easiest target for dealing with vulgarity because of the level at which it is visible in American culture right now. If you eliminated rap music, then it would be something else.
We are dealing with the world system here, and instead of simply pointing fingers and talking about the left wing/right wing dichotomy and complaining, we should be doing. Instead of simply speaking out about this, we should be putting our money where our mouths are in supporting gospel rap, challenging Christians to have dialogues about this issue and realize that this goes deeper than black/white left wing/right wing thing.
THIS IS A SIN ISSUE AND A HEART ISSUE!
Because of this, you can not merely look at a spiritual issue and use natural means to deal with. The answer will always be through Jesus.
THE ONLY WAY TO COUNTER HATE IS WITH LOVE!
So let's start talking about how we can love other cultures and races with the love of God and stop perpetuating hatred and ignorance about ourselves and about other people. This is why the unsaved has such a hard time seeing Jesus. They are simply not seeing LOVE in the body of Christ UNIVERSALLY.
26. gb said the following at 12:50 PM on Apr 16:
Part of the reason why it is considered ok for black people to make jokes about black culture, or to use terms that would be offensive if spoken by a member of another ethnicity, is the fact that the appropriation of the language of the oppressor is one such way that a dehumanized minority group can assert its legitimacy and control. While this may seem counterintuitive many post-colonial and other social theorists (e.g. Franz Fanon, Edward Said) have addressed this issue. While it remains complicated, this is simply one more viewpoint to consider.
27. Rita said the following at 3:55 PM on Apr 16:
The reason Jackson and Sharpton don't go after rappers and other similar types is because it's the continued controversy that keeps them financially afloat. Why would they want to spoil that?
28. Marci said the following at 4:59 PM on Apr 16:
Gb:
thank you for bringing a theoretical edge to this discussion! Your argument is certainly valid from a theoretical standpoint - it certainly is one of the central debates in race studies/ postcolonial studies. Also, Homi K Bhabha does some phenomenal stuff with race theory as well (his discussion of hybridity is a good read for anyone who wonders what exactly is at stake in these race debates...and speaks to the difficult position many blacks find themselves in relation to "empire", etc).
Good call!
Blessings to you!
29. Marci said the following at 5:23 PM on Apr 16:
Fred and Everybody:
I think it's also important to remember that "violence, drug use, misogyny and sexual promiscuity" are problems in EVERY culture, but are merely represented in different ways. And I would hasten to add that just because certain forms of culture (whether artistic or racial) are more tacit in how these problems are represented does not mean they are less lethal!
Case in point: which type of racism is 'worse' - the type where a black individual just doesn't get the job because of his/her race, or the type where someone of the dominant class/power block blatantly calls a black person a "Nigger"? I would suggest both are EQUALLY harmful - so let's avoid the suggestion that because certain types of artistic or racial culture are more blatant, they are therefore more dangerous...IT'S ALL BAD!!!
Blessings to you all!
30. xeres said the following at 6:53 PM on Apr 16:
America is a very reactionary (as well as adverseital) culture in general with an all or nothing mentality. It is not uncommon for things like this come about nor is it is uncommon for people to elevate one thing through degrate another in this country with . The hard core liberals and conservative are totally and unrighteously judgmental with each other and with those who are not like them. It is just that they say say it so nicely that no one will notice their pig-headed attitude.Read Dr. B's book revenge of the conscience
31. Charles H. said the following at 7:24 AM on Apr 17:
How is saying that *rap music* has problems the same as being racist? We didn't say "music produced by, and generally for, blacks." That would include rap, soul, R&B, funk, gospel, blues... and many (most?) of the singers who formed American music -- Marvin Gaye, Diana Ross, and countless others. I'd absolutely agree that *some* rock music has problems (though it's not as much an integral part of the genre as it is with rap), but I'd be shocked to hear someone say that it's racism against whites to point this out.
The original point was this: while some things become offensive based on who's doing the talking, others are just plain offensive no matter what. Do those who are crying "racism" here seriously think we'd have no problem with white people producing CDs of obscenities shouted at seemingly random, frequent intervals?
32. Marci said the following at 9:06 AM on Apr 17:
Charles H,
The problem is we need to get real here. When MOST people refer to rap music, they are not thinking of Latinos, Asians, or any other number of individuals. And I think you're way off to imply that rock music - which I recognize is often most closely associated with white people - is any less derogatory! It's absolutely not; moreover, this "sterotype" that suggests rap music is "worse" than other types of music is inherently racist.
Futhermore, I would suggest that rock music is no less influential in North American societies than rap music is - so why all the focus on rap music? This has become one of the most "professional" ways for members of the power block to suggest that black people are leading to the demise of society - and just because we've found more politically correct ways of spouting racist sentiments does not make it any less lethal.
And what about all the other types of music that are prone to "violence, drug use, misogyny and sexual promiscuity" ? To pin all this on rap music is rediculous, and shows that one does not understand the complexities of/ nuances in this highly relevant discussion. These are vices in north american culture at LARGE - so when we start suggesting that rap music is the reason these discourses have emerged, it doesn't take a race theorist to figure out what is being said.
About the main type of music (of course not including classical music, jazz, etc) that seems to have less "violence, drug use, misogyny and sexual promiscuity" is country music, which arguably is not mainstream in North American culture to the extent that rock and rap are.
My point is: were there NO rap, all these vices would still be prevelant, yes, even rampant, in North American socicety! Rap has not made anything worse than anything already has been for centuries; thus, discourses of "violence, drug use, misogyny and sexual promiscuity" would STILL be present in society in numerous forms.
The problem is that individuals these days are often less informed on historical matters than they should be - I would contend that it is primarily this lack of understanding of the evolution/history of music and more traditional/conventional histories of races and societies that leads people to suggest that Rap is the cause/chief proponent of "violence, drug use, misogyny and sexual promiscuity".
It's scapegoating, pure and simple
Blessings to you!
33. Marci said the following at 9:24 AM on Apr 17:
P.S.
Charles H said "I'd absolutely agree that *some* rock music has problems (though it's not as much an integral part of the genre as it is with rap), but I'd be shocked to hear someone say that it's racism against whites to point this out".
You are speaking as if blacks and whites are racially on the same footing. Just to clarify: often times, whites can take is as a given that no one is going to discriminate against them based on race. I will tell you from life experience that blacks have no such luxury! Trust me, my friends will tell you that I almost *never* pull the race card - and I certainly agree that some of the things that are attributed to race are actually caused primarily by other factors, whether political, socioeconomic etc (although race does cross these categorizations as well, but I'm sure you'll get the sense of what I'm getting at).
My point in bringing up rock music is that these vices are ACROSS cultures (racial and artistic), not primarily promoted by one!
And that whole assumption that black music is for black people for themselves isn't true to life. Historically (ie. from slave times, yes, it goes THAT far back!) black were allowed to flourish in entertainment - it was one of the main roles white society was comfortable with blacks inhabiting. But notice that entertainment is merely another type of servitude! If you don't "entertain" your audience, your pocket book suffers. And let's not be naive and think that the main purchasers of music by 50 cent and others are black! Everybody is buying the music, and entertainers are doing what sells. This discussion of the enslavement connection of entertainment is one race theorist are constantly grappling with all the time.
Fact is, more white people are comfortable with a black person excelling in music or sports (again, entertainment) than they are with a black doctor, lawyer, etc. I've actually heard white people degrade (or treat rudely) black people who worked hard for their designations as doctors or lawyers for no justifiable reason at all - but guess what? The same people will buy their kids junk to listen to! (Of course, thankfully, not all white people are like this, and things are getting better everyday that goes by)
Blessings to you!
34. Ted Slater said the following at 10:06 AM on Apr 17:
Charles -- you are exactly right. Rap isn't the only kind of music that has come from the black community -- as you mention, soul, R&B, funk, gospel, blues and so on have emerged from the African American community as well. And we're better off for it, in my opinion.
And it's true that rap isn't the only genre of music that includes societally harmful content.
Here's the thing: To say that the top "rap" songs are degenerate and corrosive is not inherently racist. Quantitatively, the top 10 rap songs are in fact more vulgar than the top 10 songs in other categories.
I'm not excusing the perversion represented in other genres of music (and movies and magazines and television shows, etc.). There's plenty of it. I am saying, though, that the most popular rap songs are among the most debased works ever released on society, and we should consider coming down against those who profit from creating and distributing this filth, perhaps with the same enthusiasm as that aimed toward the vulgar shock jock who started this most recent conversation.
We do need to keep in mind that rap music is relevant to this discussion because the terms Imus used are pulled directly from the rap/hiphop subculture.
Two concluding remarks:
Marci -- I appreciate your contribution to this discussion. As one who's earned a master's degree in intercultural communication, I'm naturally drawn to the theories you present. Fascinating stuff! That said, I have to disagree with your conclusions that nothing should be done about the degeneration of our culture and its artifacts (in this particular conversation, I'm speaking of rap music). I believe we should be concerned about the effects music (e.g., rap, rock, latin, R&B, emo, metal, country, etc.) has on people, and act as salt and light in our society to promote virtuous music and minimize vicious music.
I should note again that the genre itself is not irredeemable. Rap artists such as Voice and KJ-52, and production houses like I-66 Entertainment, are wonderful.
35. Marci said the following at 12:18 PM on Apr 17:
Ok Everyone!
I just want to let you know that Oprah is doing a SHOW TODAY on the Imus contreversy and hip hops response to it - I don't know what stance she's taking, but this should be a useful thing to watch, and should bring out tons of perspectives on what's at stake in these discussions.
Happy watching and Blessings to ya!
36. Jessi said the following at 12:36 PM on Apr 17:
Um, Charles...I hate to break it to you, but ALL American music has been affected in some way by Blacks.
I will once again say that you are showing your level of awareness not only of African American culture, but of racism PERIOD.
People are blaming rap music to make excuses for Imus' behavior. The issue goes beyond offensive music. The issues speaks to the sin-sick soul of mankind and the level of depravity he will stoop to when he rejects God. When you reject God, you embrace everything that is He is NOT. God is merciful; when man rejects God and determines to attempt to exist and function without Him, he opens himself to be merciless. God is Love, when man rejects Him he opens himself to Hatred. God is just; when we reject Him and His ways we not only embrace injustice but carry it out as well. This is why I believe by rejecting our way to true freedom we enslave ourselves and enslave and oppress others in the process.
LETS LOOK DEEPER THAN JUST RACE AND MUSIC, FOLKS!
37. Marci said the following at 3:23 PM on Apr 17:
Ted,
I should qualify: in my posts, I have never suggested that we ought not all to do our parts to combat degeneration in culture (racial or artistic) - my point as expressed was that to blame rap as your initial post seemed to lean towards (though I'm sure this was not the intent) is a form of scapegoating.
There is a significant difference between saying we should clear up degeneration in general - which, in one of my earlier posts on this thread, I *did* express agreement on! - and blaming rap.
I think Oprah's discussion today was a great representation of the multiple sides of this issue, and also of the historical aspects which seem to have been ignored in many of the discussions on this issue. In particular, Russel Simmons brought up a good point: that historically, it is NOT rap artists who are responsible for the term 'nappy headed hos', as Imus claims. In the end, in order to really see what's going on, an individual has to really understand these discourses historically.
But I did think I should clarify that I actually supported your idea that we should clean up things in general (ie. across airwaves, etc) [Please see my very first post on this thread, I believe, and you'll see that this is true] - I felt it was important show that rap is NOT primarily responsible for this problem - *multiple* facets of culture at large must be targeted in order to deal with the degeneration that's apparent; this is too complex an issue to attempt to 'clean up' with a singular clean up, or even with a few choice ones. If change is going to happen, it has to happen on a more widespread front.
Blessings to you!
38. Mandi said the following at 3:29 PM on Apr 17:
What exactly does it do to our credibility to claim that people of color cannot be racist? Not much.
Racism comes from a lack of love and respect deeply rooted in the heart. Our Lord taught us that what comes out of our mouths is what defiles us because it is evidence of the sin in our hearts. And we're all capable of sin. Not only capable, but guilty of it too -- regardless of color, history, economic status, etc. Otherwise, our Lord wouldn't have come for ALL of us, just the people "in power" whom some on this blog think are the only ones capable of being unloving and disrespectful towards others.
I echo all the comments criticizing the carte blanche given to the Top 10 rap songs. We need to start linking behavior and choices to consequences -- all of us, black and white, and everyone in between. What you expose your senses to directly affects your behavior. Just ask any advertising executive.
They're not "just" lyrics, they're words that desensitize us to sin. Of course many other genres of music are guilty of this. But most rap music is particularly guilty of it, and specifically those Top 10 "hits" are. It is hypocritical to respond to Imus' comments with such vigour and get defensive about black people using the same language -- or worse. If we don't want people to judge us by the color of our skin, we have to stop making it an issue. We have to treat people (and speak or sing about them) as we would want to be treated (or spoken or sung about). We have to own up to the part we play in our own failures and life circumstances. Many, many other groups have suffered historical atrocities -- some until this day -- but not all have responded to such suffering with the same defensive, woe-is-me, us-against-them attitude. Instead, they have kept their eyes on the future, through giving high priority to chastity and family stability, which go a very long way in setting kids up to break out of poverty by getting educated and employed.
Imus' only saving grace was that he wasn't "right-wing". AFter all, he supported a candidate for the presidency that was the darling of the pro-abort, pro-gay "marriage" establishment. We, as Christians, may lament the whole left-right dicotomy created...but it has been the left that has brought that about with their die-hard support for killing unborn children and shaking the foundations of family life to their core. As such, it's perfectly expected and acceptable to make these kinds of distinctions. This isn't about Christians supporting parties for the *sake* of partisan allegiance, but rather for the sake of upholding the basic norms of decency and respect for human rights that any healthy, free, successful society should have.
39. Ted Slater said the following at 3:57 PM on Apr 17:
Jessi, you make some good points in your last paragraph.
That said, I don't see any evidence for your saying, "People are blaming rap music to make excuses for Imus' behavior." Who is defending this debased shock jock? I know of nobody. What people are saying is that if we're going to bring a light to Imus's vulgar communication, we should also bring a light to the most vulgar of all broadcast communication: popular rap.
In regards to your final paragraph, I believe we should think in terms of "both/and" and not merely "either/or." We should be concerned with *BOTH* the artifacts of our culture (e.g., vulgar communication) *AND* the souls of those around us. Doesn't need to be "either/or."
Regarding your saying, "ALL American music has been affected in some way by Blacks." Can't you also say that all American music has been affected in some way by whites, by Latinos, by the Irish, by Indigenous Americans, and so on? I imagine Copland, for example, was influenced some time in his life by someone who can trace their ancestry to Africa, so I guess you'd be right. But likewise he was probably affected by other ethnicities as well. Not sure what your point is in bringing that up, in all honesty.
40. Crystal said the following at 1:05 AM on Apr 18:
Leah, Fred, Marci, Tomi, Jesse it is refreshing to be supported and to have some of the points I attempted to make articulated so brilliantly. In regards to Adam Sloope, I hate the "N word.” And I am curious about African American’s “conquering the race war.” Maybe in some obscure parallel universe that is so, but in the reality that I live in people of African decent are still being oppressed—it’s just that the vehicles of oppression have changed. Oppression in any manifestation is still oppression. So it’s not institutional racism that plagues the black community—it’s the “N word”—a word that white people invented to denigrate blacks? Thanks for the enlightenment; it’s great to have new clarification on what the REAL problem is. Looks like MLK came made his little speech and racial issues are passé. Now all minorities stand victorious, if only that ugly “N word” would go away. I hope my sarcasm here is evident.
I reiterate I LOATHE the N word. I say that as someone who has been the victim of it on many occasions, by both whites who meant it offensively, and blacks who meant it as a term of endearment. But allow me to suggest a different perspective. My brother acts like a moron sometimes. And I call him a moron sometimes, but if someone outside of my family were to say that, I’d jump to his defense. Why can I insult him and others can’t? Because I love him. Because he is my brother. Because regardless of what I say about him, I’m always going to support and love him. Because I’ve been there with him when times were good, bad, and everything in between. Because I am a part of him and he is a part of me. Because his success is mine and my success is his. Because his struggles are mine and mine are his. He would feel differently if someone else were critical of him, but when it comes from his sister he isn’t insulted.I hope my analogy helps and doesn’t fuel an angry discourse about why black people can say things whites can’t. That was never my intention; I just want to elucidate a different perspective. Let us remember we have all been adopted into the family of Christ and that we have been commanded to love one another—that means even if a person’s opinion/race/political affiliation differs from our own.
May God Bless you all!
41. Jam said the following at 10:01 AM on Apr 18:
As an ethnic young woman,his remarks were uncalled for. Going further, beyond racism, he called out a college basketball team that did absotlutely nothing to him...to make fun of? Imus has always been a no boundaries radio host, because he was allowed to be. He's been fired in the past at previous stations, to sign contracts with others, when does it stop? His termination will go down with the others on the list, I'm sure his resume is being picked up as I write this. Let's not be hypocritical, his remarks were altogether over the top...but what about Rush Limbaugh? And others? Sure, we can take this opportunity to blast the rap community, but education is key. Let our children know it is not okay to call women "ho's," it is not tolerable to call names, like "nappy headed" or "jigaboos." Imus knew better, and his mouth has led him to the hot seat before, this time out the door...again. This was more diarhea of the mouth than a bonafide racism attack, a joke on young ladies gone too far.
42. Marci said the following at 1:21 PM on Apr 18:
Hey All!
Here's the other thing too. The word "nappy" historically goes back to times when the mouths, heads, hair etc of blacks were used as/in caricatures/pictures that were intentionally meant to portray blacks as "other" ugly, etc (for example, the said features were exagerated to such an extent that they were a distortion of how blacks actually looked). "Nappy" was used as a term which degraded black women's hair (ie. the tighter the hair's curl pattern, the uglier one was - clearly, straighter European hair was prefered), and was often used as an insulting term towards blacks.
That being said, this word has been - as race theorists would say -reclaimed. Since the 'black is beautiful' movement etc, blacks began to use this term to refer to their own hair as a way of taking back - and manipulating - the inherently negative connotations of this term.
So here's the problem! Imus' statement implicitly harks back to the first tradition I spoke of, where black hair was viewed as unattractive because of its un-European look and texture. His statement was made to criticize those women, to paint them in a negative light.
And about the word 'ho'? Let's get REAL! People keep saying this term belongs to rap - so for all those who failed to note the evolution of the word 'ho', I will provide a reminder which has been overlooked in MOST discussions about Imus' word choice. Simply put, the word 'ho' is MERELY the ebonic/African American *English* term for the word "whore"! (And that words been around since BEFORE those rappers were born - and feminists were trying to address this word and its connotations as mapped on to general society even in these times...)
Now, why on earth is Rap being blamed for a word it ultimately didn't create? There has always been a respect for the evolution of words in general, I've felt. Until now. Until people (decided to?) forget what we've *always* known (or should!) - that words have origins, and that to understand a word fully, you MUST understand its origin.
As part of my current PhD studies, I've done work on not only race, which is the central aspect of my thesis, but feminism, because there are a *lot* of intersections in the discourses used. So I think it's fair to say that the sterotypes of women (virgin, mother, whore etc) are reductive/rigid, and can be used to imprison people - these discourses can be used to map onto people identities that are not their reality, or are too prescriptive. SOOO if we really look at where the word 'ho' comes from, we'll realize that black folk/rappers (sad to say, some - though not all - see these terms as interchangable...) *didn't* create this term, so far as it's merely a derivative of the word "whore" and the word "whore" has its own sets of cultural baggage that are potent and dangerous in the multiple ways it entraps women all over the world.
But guess what? No one wants to discuss this, because then they can't pin the blame for the ills of the world on rappers! Not that rap doesn't have problems; it needs to be cleaned up ALONG SIDE of all the rest of corporate America, governement, etc...
And one more point: Ted, I think we may have to "agree to disagree" on your view that rap represents the "most vulgar (so it seems like you're saying the 'worst') "form of all broadcast communication: popular rap". I really do think that when we get into saying that one form is worse than another, we really get into dangerous waters. Does most blanant equal worse? I would argue not. [again, my example about whether or not someone not being given a job based on race versus someone blatantly calling someone else 'Nigger' is appropriate here ..I think both are EQUALLY bad]...
But get this! At conferences or debates, it often comes up that racism in the USA is worse than it is in Cananda - and there I am, the lone ranger, arguing that this is NOT the case because while racial tensions are more upfront in the states, in Canada, everything is tacit. Here, People just won't get the job etc, and that tacit stuff is so dangerous PRECISELY because its hard to address what is so undercover (I mean, how do you pin it down?!?) - that's why with this Imus contreversy, many people are ready to pin problems of race and gender relations on the rappers, instead of taking note of the less easily targeted, but equally poisonous ways these discourses work tacitly in Corporate America, government, and yes, even churches (yes, let's not pretend that racism, gender strife, and sexual promiscuity and the rest of it aren't present in the house of the Lord!).
[Woebegone sigh...]
Blessings to you all!
43. xeres said the following at 3:24 PM on Apr 18:
Remarks like what Imus said and situations like gossip, promiscuity does show one thing: Most of us who practice these are still lacking self-respect or respect for other people.
It reeks that things like strife, bitterness, discrimination happens in churches but it doesn't make it right; it only reveal our unwillingness to value what God values the most. If we really love God, we make every effort to make His values our value and to keep on learning how to fully accept who we really are in God's eyes. However, God knows the weakness in human so He remains very patient, much more what we really deserve.