Where's the Motivation Guys? by Steve Watters on 03/23/2007 at 11:15 AM

Over the past week, I've spoken with two attractive, gifted single women about the headaches of dating. Both of these women have great jobs here at Focus on the Family, are fun to be with and have a lot to offer in the roles they'd love to play some day as wives.

Too many times I've heard them talk through the frustrations of pseudo-relationships, quasi-dates and bizarre exchanges with online suitors.

As I hear these stories, I so often scratch my head and think, "How can so many guys miss how great of a catch these girls are?" As I think back to college, I see that these are the kinds of girls that my friends and I would have been competing to date.

I remember a conversation I had with a guy named Jim who met his wife in the 80s. He described seeing a girl named Mary and thinking, "I better marry her before someone else does."

Are there any guys thinking like that these days?

I'm not trying to pile onto guys. I know from our emails and blog comments that there are some solid and well-motivated guys among our readers. Too often, however, I hear stories of guys acting like they have all the time in the world to evaluate their options -- regardless of the wear and tear they might be putting on the hearts of the women in their lives.

I hate to sound too doom and gloom, but a lot of today's single guys need to keep in mind what a forty-something single friend of mine once said: "Looking back now, I realize that I let a lot of good opportunities pass me by."

Where's the Motivation Guys? by Steve Watters on 03/23/2007 at 11:15 AM

Over the past week, I've spoken with two attractive, gifted single women about the headaches of dating. Both of these women have great jobs here at Focus on the Family, are fun to be with and have a lot to offer in the roles they'd love to play some day as wives.

Too many times I've heard them talk through the frustrations of pseudo-relationships, quasi-dates and bizarre exchanges with online suitors.

As I hear these stories, I so often scratch my head and think, "How can so many guys miss how great of a catch these girls are?" As I think back to college, I see that these are the kinds of girls that my friends and I would have been competing to date.

I remember a conversation I had with a guy named Jim who met his wife in the 80s. He described seeing a girl named Mary and thinking, "I better marry her before someone else does."

Are there any guys thinking like that these days?

I'm not trying to pile onto guys. I know from our emails and blog comments that there are some solid and well-motivated guys among our readers. Too often, however, I hear stories of guys acting like they have all the time in the world to evaluate their options -- regardless of the wear and tear they might be putting on the hearts of the women in their lives.

I hate to sound too doom and gloom, but a lot of today's single guys need to keep in mind what a forty-something single friend of mine once said: "Looking back now, I realize that I let a lot of good opportunities pass me by."

Comments

[1. Dustin said the following at 11:57 AM on Mar 23:]

1

Hey Steve, can I have their numbers? :-P

It's hard and frustrating, I'm a guy and I try to be outright with my feelings (i.e. actively pursue Christian women I'm interested in), I've been shot down more times than I care to think about but I know the Lord loves me and that's all that really matters. And I know he has a plan for my life. So if that means getting shot down some more, or for your friends putting up with some dudes who don't quite have the spine yet to be in a serious relationship, hen so be it. I think the end goal is worthy of the hard work.

[2. jcs said the following at 11:59 AM on Mar 23:]

2

Steve, I think you're "preaching to the choir" here. Judging from the men's tales of woe that appear in your comboxes on a daily basis, the men who read "The Line" are pursuing women like this, and getting shot down every time. Your statement probably would have had more impact if it was posted as a regular article.

(jcs cringes as he contemplates how men are going to fill this thread with the same tales of romantic woe that have been endlessly discussed in previous threads...)

[3. Jordan Peacock said the following at 12:08 PM on Mar 23:]

3

You don't hear about many of these guys because they aren't constantly hanging around the dating scene. I've only sort-of dated once, and got married to her. The same applies to many of my friends who, while dating longer, aren't dating more, and have the same end in mind.

[4. Jonathan from Canada said the following at 12:24 PM on Mar 23:]

4

I would think like that if I knew girls like that...

[5. Darin said the following at 12:55 PM on Mar 23:]

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I think that part of the problem good single Christian women and good single Christian guys have...IS FINDING EACH OTHER. There are a lot of us out there, but it's a big world and we're spread out all over it.

What adds to the difficulties of finding each other is the fact that it takes valuable time to find out who has the inner qualities needed and who doesn't. Some churches have singles Bible study groups which makes it easier to meet other singles and evaluate their potential...but from what I've seen these groups are few and far between.

Another obstacle is the fact that many of the quality Christian singles that you meet have standards so high that I don't think Christ himself would be able please them (Eww...he's got facial hair!)

And then there's the problem that was mentioned: Guy's who think that they have forever to evaluate their options. BUT...it's not just the guys who have the problem here. There are just as many girls stringing guys along as the other way around.

Another problem is that single people these days pack their schedules so full that they simply don't have time for relationships. Chances are if a guy has to get an appointment a month ahead of time to initiate a relationship...it's not going to happen. (In today's society women are faced with an increasing pressure to be "successful" in a career PLUS serving in the church PLUS trying to learn the skills of a housewife...)

Likewise, many guys fall into the same category of being to busy. In a man's defense, many guys are simply trying to prepare financially for marriage. And that often requires a college degree. (These days a college degree is comparable to what a high school diploma was fifty years ago.)

Finally a guy finishes college and get's a job. But that's not good enough. Before he can think of marriage, he has to buy a home...a palace for his bride.

Has anyone noticed the trend in real estate prices in the last thirty years? What it used to take a man four years wages to buy...a guy might spend forty years paying off in today's market.

A young man's father might advise him, "Just don't expect so much when your starting out." But try telling that to a young lady's father. Try telling it to a young lady who grew up with dreams of being carried off to a palace by Prince Charming. Try telling it to her mother who is trying to live her own life through the life of her daughter. That's reality.

Were it not for God's supernatural intervention I don't know if ANY good Christian single people would find a partner these days. Thank goodness for God's mercy!

And thank you to all the people at boundless for tackling this complex issue. There is hope...and with God's help we will succeed.

[6. Chris B. said the following at 1:01 PM on Mar 23:]

6

Speaking as someone who saw a girl not too long ago and said to himself, "I better marry her before someone else does," and then moved from there to successfully pursue that beautiful, godly young woman, I can see a lot of missing intentionality and courage to initiate relationships in many of the young men that I know.

The truth is that most of the guys with a lot of motivation to pursue godly young women are already taken, because they pursued the woman to whom God led them without hesitation--but hopefully not without counsel.

From my own experience, a lot of guys miss out on wonderful opportunities in college, for the simple reason that they don't yet feel ready to enter into serious relationships during their college years. This attitude is damaging, because college is one of the best times in a young man or woman's life to interact with lots of people of similar age, goals, background, and--if they're lucky--shared faith in Christ.

I encourage all Christian young men to seek "the wife of your youth," and get motivated to prepare themselves to meet their future wife (Proverbs 5:18).

[7. Gina Dalfonzo said the following at 1:13 PM on Mar 23:]

7

I'm really looking forward to getting the guys' take on this and maybe, FINALLY, understanding what the phenomenon is all about. If I could even just get an explanation for the classic one-date-and-never-call-again pattern, I could die a happy woman.

[8. Mac said the following at 1:13 PM on Mar 23:]

8

I know that I'm not thinking that I have all the time in the world. I've just not met anyone with reciprocal interest in me. I believe that part of the issue is once schooling is over, our forced social interaction is also over. The workplace, with its cubicles, emails, and voicemails is not designed for socializing because real interaction with real people reduces productivity. With today's society leaning towards more individualism, it requires a more dedicated person to break out of the limited interpersonal communication that existence provides. On the other hand, geography still is the largest barrier to overcome. Despite the power of the internet, relationships are impossible without face to face social interaction.

[9. andrew said the following at 1:20 PM on Mar 23:]

9

I've recently starting dating a wonderful girl and I keep thinking "I better marry her before someone else does". I need to be careful not to get ahead of myself though. It's only been ~3 months for us.
- Andrew

[10. Mike Theemling said the following at 1:38 PM on Mar 23:]

10

Were these girls at the Boundless mixer that I attended? Were they one of the 9 whom I e-mailed (initiated) with afterwards who either ignored me or turned me down for a date (or one of the two whom I asked before the event and turned me down)? If so, I'd like to know why they turned ME down.

If even I didn't ask them directly, I never got any e-mails from them hinting at meeting together.

jcs is right. Before blanketing the blame at the guys I'd ask them if they'd acted warm to only guys they are interested in and cool around the others, how many online dating requests they've turned down, etc.

Maybe they truly are victims of bad circumstance. But I suspect that all of us, guys and girls, play a role in our lack of success. Myself included.

[11. Christina said the following at 1:49 PM on Mar 23:]

11

I think geography is key. I work at a conference center in Upstate New York, in a town with a population of 500. Granted, the population triples during the summer, but I often think, "How am I ever going to find a husband living here?"

On the other hand, tons of reputable young gentlemen find their way here during the summer months and I find myself thinking, "are they thick? There are tons of reputable young women staring right at them."

Thanks for asking a great question Steve. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one confused.

[12. BDB said the following at 2:08 PM on Mar 23:]

12

One thing I've noticed is that if you make enough money to support a family, you don't have time to see them. To own a basic 3-bedroom home on one income in Southern California requires a job working 50-60 hours/week. That's either a management job with a lot of stress or something like law enforcement with a lot of overtime.

A big driver of divorce is when people are working too much and their spouse feels neglected. Teachers seem to have the lowest divorce rate, but they also get 3 months off each year. That time can be invested in something besides work.

I know a number of women who complain bitterly that their husbands work too much. I also know a number of single women who evaluate men by the size of their paycheck, their car, their house, etc. It's a vicious circle.

But it can also be measured. When my grandparents got married, they took a 4-day weekend. Cost in today's dollars: $300. Today, I know many people who expect their honeymoon to be a cruise - cost in today's dollars $3000. So in two generations, expectations have increased by an order of magnitude.

I tried to explain this concept to someone, and she didn't get it. But a few months later she did manage to book an Alaska cruise with her boyfriend.

I really think that both men and women are way too materialistic, and the SUV's in the church parking lot show that it's not just a secular problem. If you want the stuff, you'll never have time. If you never have time, you'll never meet anyone. And even if you do, your marriage will be endangered if you still put aquiring stuff at the top of your list.

[13. Zeph Greenwell said the following at 2:08 PM on Mar 23:]

13

Guys who want to marry do marry. However these women could do themselves a favor by not allowing these pseudo-relationships to begin. If he doesn't know what he wants, or he does and its just not marriage they should dump him. Guys who can't be leaders in dating relationships will not be good leaders in marriage. Women need to stop wasting there time with them and focus on the guys who would marry a nice girl if they found one.

[14. Esther said the following at 2:13 PM on Mar 23:]

14

Does this mean it's time for boundless to start matching people up? I read comments from guys here that make me think, "wow, I'd like to get to know them better", but who knows, they probably live on the other side of the country.

[15. Sina said the following at 2:15 PM on Mar 23:]

15

I had a lot of guys hang out with me and then later tell me they only saw me as a friend after I attempted to "Pull a Ruth"...so in an attempt to figure out where I went wrong, I decided to be very gaurded when it comes to close relationships with guys.

I think with all the singles groups it makes it very comfortable for guys and girls to not realize the need for a mate. Afterall they have all the companionship they need right there!

I did have a few instances where I 'think' guys were trying to pursue but it was a whole lot of hinting and having their friends ask me stuff...that's a complete turn off if the guy can't come to me on his own. So since they never came to me directly, I didn't ask for further explanation from the ones trying to hook them up with me.

Although trying to analyze the whole situation makes me dizzy too! Perhaps no one has pursued me because God is protecting me from the 'wrong' ones.

[16. ethan said the following at 2:23 PM on Mar 23:]

16

great article, I have found the same to be true in talking with guys (especially more conservative ones) They seem to be so focused on getting themselves perfect before "dating" that they miss the whole point that it's the process of interaction that improves you.

Stop thinking about it and just do it. (thanks nike)

(I took my own advice btw and am now happily married) :-)

[17. Ed said the following at 2:58 PM on Mar 23:]

17

Not to be rude or anything. . .but I wonder how this relates to Candice's story of your actions early in your relationship with her? It sounds like your pursuit of Candice was brought on with her "Pulling a Ruth" and taking the initiative. . .maybe certain guys need some affirmation and intiative from a woman before they jump in?

[18. Mark said the following at 3:02 PM on Mar 23:]

18

I second Esther's comment.

How 'bout a little forum for the guys and girls to chit-chat in. The audience here at The Line definitely seems to have their hearts in the right place. All the talk about intentionality and taking initiative is nice, but if you live in some place like, say, northern New England, where there's few mature singles and fewer Christian singles, all that talk doesn't amount to much if you can't put it into practice with anyone.

By the way, can I have the number of the girl that Dustin doesn't go out with?

[19. Ashley said the following at 3:04 PM on Mar 23:]

19

Darin: "Try telling it to a young lady who grew up with dreams of being carried off to a palace by Prince Charming... That's reality."

A palace? Who wants a palace? Why do men think that women have these lofty expectations of physical things? Do I want my husbands character to reflect responsibility and support for the welfare of our family? Yes, please! But that is by no means asking for a palace! Just a feasible means of support. Does that mean you're going to have a more difficult time finding a wife with a degree in Non-western Comparative History with a minor in Ceramics? Yes! Because you'll have a harder time supporting a family, not because you can't afford a palace.

Mike: "I'd like to know why they turned ME down."

Why do they owe you a reason that they turned you down? Is that a reason to stop trying? The odds are still good that someone, will, eventually say yes. (by the by, know that you're in the minority, most men I know are far too busy reconstructing cars and playing guitar to pursue women)

Zeph: "However these women could do themselves a favor by not allowing these pseudo-relationships to begin. If he doesn't know what he wants, or he does and its just not marriage they should dump him."

How do we know that he doesn't know what he wants unless he communicates that to us? Contrary to popular opinion women's intuition does not extend to thought-reading.

Ethan: Amen. Couldn't agree more.

[20. Gina said the following at 3:25 PM on Mar 23:]

20

Well, I wish that some guy would tell me what I'm doing wrong. I DO go out with guys who ask me out unless I have a good reason not to (i.e., he's not a Christian, or we're so completely different I can't see it ever working out, or there's something alarming about his behavior). In other words, I say "yes, let's go out" most of the time. Nine times out of ten the guy then loses interest. So, am I utterly dull, or is it something else? If someone would just tell me, then I could try to do something about it!

[21. Becky F. said the following at 3:28 PM on Mar 23:]

21

Andrew, if you both feel the same way, and you see that you are a good match, I don't think you're getting ahead of yourself in thinking about marriage at 3 months of dating.

My husband and I met, started "dating" two weeks later, got engaged 3 months after that, and got married 5 months after that. It happens!

[22. Mandi said the following at 4:08 PM on Mar 23:]

22

Gentlemen, motivation is a mark of manliness for many women.

But, there is a fine line that crosses over to desperation -- maddening, I guess, but I think it's there. Maybe some girls mistaken motivation for desperation because there are just so many guys out there that enter into pseudo-relationships, that when they meet someone who wants more, they think he's desperate. I know I met so many more unmotivated men than I could have imagined, so that by the time I met someone worthwhile who *was* motivated, it took me a while to realize there was nothing wrong with him. Seriously. Sometimes, I'm still in shock.

That said, wow, reading some of these responses by the guys, it's very touching and convicting. The unmotivated guys out there can easily lead a girl to the conclusion that men don't want or need to be loved, since they're more interested in career, sports, hardware stores, or whatever it is that's keeping them from having love and commitment.

I guess the thing about girls not being warm to guys they're not interested in is that...well, don't you guys do it too, when you sense a girl you "don't think of that way" is interested in you?

I think it's comforting to remember that it's only your role as a guy to find the wife God is leading you too. Something I read in the (great) book "Choosing God's Best" put it very well: remember that God chose Adam's wife, and all Adam was doing before that was sleeping! Now I realize that might seem like the exact *opposite* thing to say in a post encouraging men to be motivated and actively pursue women. But isn't it nice to know that if you let Him, God will be your perfect match-maker and is more than capable of leading you to a wonderful girl who will respond to you the way you deserve (or more) when God thinks you're ready? But you have to let Him. So, back to motivation!

[23. Darin said the following at 4:11 PM on Mar 23:]

23

Chris, the question is, "WHY do so many guys not feel like they are yet ready for marriage in their college years?"

Answer: Many guy's are ADVISED that until they are "financially secure" they have no business thinking about marriage. (A financially secure college student??? If they have rich parents maybe.)

And here's another question: "Is success guaranteed for guys who DO feel ready to persue marriage in college?"

Answer #1: Many young women are advised not to consider a man who is not "financially secure". (There have been a lot of guys shot down repeatedly in college because of their lack of income.)

Answer #2: Women in secular colleges are not there to learn how to be a wife and mother. (Nor are they there simply to find a husband as was the case in years gone by.) They are more concerned about their career goals.

Answer #3: Not every secular college is overflowing with good single Christian ladies. A man might be doing his best to find one and still come up empty.

To the guys who made it through the obstacle course...CONGRATULATIONS!!! There are a lot of other guys who tried everything that you did and weren't as fortunate.

Now, consider the statement below:

"The truth is that most of the guys with a lot of motivation to pursue godly young women are already taken, because they pursued the woman to whom God led them without hesitation--but hopefully not without counsel."

How do you suppose that statement makes a guy feel who has been intentional and courageous in initiating relationships but has been shot down repeatedly by Christian women who were looking for "financial security" or were more interested in their career? Or what about the guys whose college relationships broke up after graduation because the woman's career was leading her in a different direction?

Sure, there are a lot of guys who are cowardly and apathetic about marriage...but that's NOT most of the guys here. Most of the guys participating in this discussion are on here because we ARE motivated...and we ARE intentional.

Give thanks to God for your good fortune, brother. And pray for the rest of us to receive our turn. God bless and I wish you the best in your relationship.

[24. Simon said the following at 4:19 PM on Mar 23:]

24

I think it is largely a myth that it is the guys who want to keep their options open and avoid committing to a woman.

In articles, it is always the Christian guys who are criticized. What about the Christian girls?

I've "been out" with 5 Christian women and in all the situations, they have rejected me and not reciprocated my feelings.

I don't know what to do - I seek to be a Godly guy who loves God and seeks to follow Christ, but I don't seem to be attractive to any girls.

[25. Mandi said the following at 4:20 PM on Mar 23:]

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Becky F.,

Thanks for sharing that. It was very encouraging. God bless your heart, I needed that. It's hard to feel you're doing the right thing when so many people around you comment on how "fast" a relationship has developed because it hasn't taken YEARS to do so. That kind of thing can unnecessarily create doubt in your mind.

[26. James said the following at 4:39 PM on Mar 23:]

26

Steve said: "I remember a conversation I had with a guy named Jim who met his wife in the 80s. He described seeing a girl named Mary and thinking, "I better marry her before someone else does."

Are there any guys thinking like that these days?"

Yes, but in my circle of friends, it has happened several times (in my experience), where two equally mature Christian guys will be thinking that about the same mature Christian girl. And what's even more ironic, is that the two times it has already happened to me, the other guy is my good friend, and usually a current or former roommate.

The blessing to those situations is that instead of being tempted to wallow in self-pity, I can begin to rejoice for my brother since I cannot begrudge him; and also rejoice for my sister since she has been blessed to be pursued by a man I know for a fact to be a God-honoring, Christ centered man.

In the first instance that this happened, those two are getting married this summer, and I'm one of the groomsmen.

I'm still waiting on God to bring me that girl who I'll end up marrying before some other guy...and in the meantime, continue to let Him grow me spiritually.

[27. Gina said the following at 4:54 PM on Mar 23:]

27

Guys, here's one thing to keep in mind: "Career" is not a dirty word when it relates to women.

Of course a lot of us are interested in our careers. They're a big part of our lives. And that is not a bad thing. It's not even unbiblical. (Go back and read about that Proverbs 31 woman and her activities again.) And it does not necessarily mean that we're not willing and able to be stay-at-home moms when the time comes. But in the meantime, we kind of have to support ourselves, you know? And there's nothing wrong with that and there's not even anything wrong with a woman enjoying that career. If you're looking for a woman who's bored and frustrated and resentful with the work God's given her to do at this point in her life -- well, that creates a whole new set of problems.

If you're pursuing a woman who's too wrapped up in her career to be interested in going out with a guy, then okay, you have a point. But I don't think that's true in the majority of situations.

[28. Hunter W said the following at 4:56 PM on Mar 23:]

28

One possibility that hasn't been discussed is that these girls have "Prince Charming Syndrome". It is similar to "Supermodel Syndrome" that many guys suffer from.

It has been my experience (personal and in others) that many women expect a guy to say and do what she considers to be the "right thing" 99% of the time. (The extra 1% is to allow for our 'sin natures'.) These women look for value in the sizzle and not in the steak.

I’m sure if these girls look around at the men in their respective circles, they’d find at least two or three quality men that have the same outlook on the future as they do and who would pursue them in a Godly way if he was only given the chance.

[29. Darin said the following at 5:16 PM on Mar 23:]

29

BDB, excellent commentary on materialism!

Ashley, it sounds like you're well balanced in terms of your financial expectations for your future husband. Many women are not. And if they are, quite often their parents have unrealistic expectations for their daughter's mate.

When I use the expression of a girl expecting a palace, I am referring to the tendency of a lot of women to hold onto their childhood expectations for what marriage will be like. That tendency has been documented by people with a far broader perspective than I have.

Noone is saying that ALL women are like that. I just listed it as one of the many possible obstacles that men face.

[30. Blair said the following at 5:35 PM on Mar 23:]

30

Just a word of encouragment to the guys out there. Many women do not care if a man has a lot of money. I am not so much worried about how much a man makes but how he spends what he makes. I actually am turned off by a lot of guys with nice cars because I think about how much the payments must be. Most of my friends and I want men of God who are striving to live a godly life and as far as looks go my only big turn off is a man with poor hygiene. Anyways my point in writing this is to let the guys out there who are pursuing marriage that your search is not in vain. Use discernment, wise counsel, and lots of prayer when pursuing your future spouse and I believe God will bless your efforts. As a single women who wants to be a wife I am been encouraged to see that there are men of God who want to get married, may the Lord guide and bless your search.

[31. BDB said the following at 5:50 PM on Mar 23:]

31

I don't know if this is the least bit helpful, but as I've read these articles over the last few months, it occurs to me that one problem is when people are in the same geographic proximity and meet each other, but have different expectations for how things should proceed. There are so many different sets of rules that two people following different rules will completely miss the signs of interest in each other.

For example, a man trying to follow Elisabeth Elliot's advice to observe the character of women around him and look for a godly one may discover that they are all volunteering in the nusery -- where men aren't allowed to volunteer for insurance reasons. This is more of a tactical delay than a strategic problem, though. I've read 11 of EE's books now and I've decided she's right. I would encourage everyone to examine their routine and see if they are organizing their time in such a way that they never come into contact with single people their age. Women who are never volunteering around single men will never be noticed by a man trying to follow EE's rules. But if they also go to a bar on Saturday night, they will probably be noticed by men following singles-bar rules.

As for pure motivation, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned all the children of divorce out there. At the undergraduate university I attended, they actually put in the parent's orientation packet explicit instructions for parents to not tell their child they are getting a divorce on the day they drop their child off for college. It happened often enough they had to make it a rule. A lot of people go to college looking for an escape from an unhappy home life. Yes, some are trying to get the Mrs. degree to escape, and I know a few who did that. But today I think a lot more people decide that they're going to need to be more responsible than the parents they saw growing up, so they focus on their career and fixing themselves in the mean time -- putting marriage off until some distant point in the future. It takes a good 10 years to get established in a career. People taking that route won't even be thinking about marriage until long after college. And then they will indeed realize that it was easier to meet people in college.

[32. Sara said the following at 5:58 PM on Mar 23:]

32

What Darin said about the girls' dads having these sky high expectations is so true. Also, I've seen as well what he mentioned about the moms -- I have friends just like that. Of course there are different situations, but it is a definite issue, especially with folks who've grown up in Christian, "courtship-trained" homes. We need to get back to the basics and remember what is truly important in godly relationships that will lead to marriage. Makes me think of that article one of the ladies wrote, titled "Faith for the Man He will become."

[33. Jake said the following at 6:07 PM on Mar 23:]

33

It's tempting to echo the other guys and say that often women turn us down or are less than enthusiastic about the relationship when we do date. However, the specific scenario described by Steve is one in which two women allegedly do want to get married, and want more from relationships than any of their suitors have been willing to give. So I will speculate on why that might be.

I can only speak for myself, but there is one way that I could see myself doing what has supposedly been done to these women. Ever since I started liking girls in early puberty, I've been afflicted by crushes: at any given time, there has been one girl, and only one, whom I "like," to the exclusion of all others. Over the past few years, I managed to date, twice, and be broken up with, twice, the girl I had a crush on, and it's been over a year since our breakup. However, the feelings just have not gone away. Now, I know that anyone offering me advice on this subject would say that that's immature, even unhealthy, of me, and that I should just get over it, broaden my horizons, ask out some other Christian women and see what happens. The rational side of me thinks "they're right; Jane always expressed doubts and reservations while we were dating, and broke up with me twice. She's moved on, is possibly dating other guys but is also the type who's able to be perfectly content being single, and leads a very full life without me. I really am never going to be with her. If I ever want to get married, be able to have sex, have children, have someone to grow old with, I need to look elsewhere." But the emotional side of me simply cannot make my feelings disappear, or reassign them to another girl.

So, here's what I could see happening: somebody I know at church comes up to me and says "hey, my niece just moved to the area and started attending here; I think you two would be good together; I'll introduce you." Said niece starts coming to adult Sunday school, and we talk briefly every week for a few weeks. I think "well, she's not Jane, but she is kind of pretty, and very nice. I wonder if there could be something there if I gave it a chance?" So, in one of my rational moments, I say "hey, I'm not doing anything else, so why not?" and I ask her out. We go on a date or two, but then it hits me. My emotional side surfaces and starts to think "I just can't do this. I want to be with Jane. The feeling for this other girl just isn't there. I can't pursue her knowing I might spend the rest of my life looking over my shoulder and thinking about what might have been; it's not pleasant for me nor fair to her." Not wanting to lead her on, I call it off before it goes anywhere. Or, maybe, since even though she's not Jane spending time with her is better than spending yet another Friday night home alone with a movie, I don't call it off even though I know it will never ultimately go further, so I do wind up leading her on.

Now, this has not actually happened to me. And again, I can only speak for myself. But this is something that I can imagine accounting for the behavior of the men Steve described.

Incidentally, I'd like to know how common the "crush" predilection is for us men. I've emphasized only speaking for myself, but I often wonder whether it's something other guys experience or find to be a hurdle for them. Maybe there could be another post polling us on the matter?

[34. Sina said the following at 6:29 PM on Mar 23:]

34

I think we have a lot of girls here who haven't been pursued and guys who are pursuing as they should yet meet denial. Perhaps we need the others to chime in...those who are not asking girls out and girls who are turning guys down.

I have accepted date invitations in the past but then the guys turn around and tell me they see me as a friend.

We should all have a big party online and meet one another since we all seem to be in the same boat (those of us who are not married or dating that is).

[35. rich said the following at 7:01 PM on Mar 23:]

35

I can echo many of the guys' thoughts here. I know that many, many women get frustrated with the loony behavior of many men, but really, I think its a two way street. In my church, the number one criticism I hear from the women (and the pastors) is that men don't initiate, etc, etc. But I'm a guy who has no problem doing that, and most of my guy friends have no problems doing that either. Most of us have the same phenomenon going on that many men here have noted: the women a) shoot them down, and/or b) they think a guy that is being intentional about marriage is desperate and weird (and trust me, we're not being desperate.). I once heard two girls I was interested in say within earshot, "heck, I'd just be happy if ANY Christian guy asks me out! I'll go out with him!" So I asked them out (not at the same time...a few months apart). They both turned me down, saying they weren't ready for a relationship...which is ok, but it all just looked shady, given the aforementioned confession. Yes yes, I know that the women have the "right" to turn guys down, and they don't owe us an explanation nor do they even owe us a chance (though it would be nice), but is a balanced assessment of the situation too much to ask (i.e., acknowledge that its not all the guys fault)?

I'm not trying to put the onus back on the women...I'm merely pointing out that both genders are missing something, and its untruthful and discouraging to criticize one gender heavily. I read article after article where the men's butts are kicked for being passive and stuff, and pastor after pastor says the same thing. Some of that can be exhortational, and some of it is called for, but after a while it has the opposite affect intended...not to mention that its inaccurate.

[36. Jacob said the following at 7:03 PM on Mar 23:]

36

I have to echo those who have brought up the financial factor. While many men may not initially think too much of it, Darin is right: we are advised not to get married until we're "financially stable." Things get worse when you factor in college loans (and for many, car payments), which will not leave much for the savings account, especially for new graduates. On the whole, however, I would say that the true men out there have the motives, but too many of the women are expecting the 25 year single John MacArthur to woo them.

[37. Christina said the following at 7:29 PM on Mar 23:]

37

Steve, I'm sure the suggestion got lost in most of the opinions (some of which, are mine) but I think the idea of a forum is great.

We singles obviously have a lot to discuss and spur each other on in (in love, of course).

We could have topics to discuss, where both men and women could help figure out the Christian Dating crisis we all seem to find ourselves in.

I don't know if it would help, or if it would frustrate us more, but I thinks it's something worth looking into.

[38. James said the following at 7:41 PM on Mar 23:]

38

Jake, as for myself, I AM a bit vulnerable to infatuations. However, here's the trick to it (and it's not really a trick, but good biblical advice):

Give it to God.

Seriously! The past several times I've developed infatuations with girls I'm friends with (and they are Christians), and recognized them as infatuations, I begin praying for God to do what He will in the situation. I let Him take over, and put those feelings away, trying instead to serve that girl in purity first. This includes thoughts, surrendering feelings, and my words and actions. All go to God, and I treat her as I would any of my other sisters in Christ.

I figure that if God intends for our relationship to mature, that He will do it, and it will grow from friendship our developing friendship. However, that current infatuation is still an infatuation (as the saying goes, "Right girl, wrong time is still wrong girl"). And by giving that up, I'm freed to see the girl for who she really is and let her character speak for her, not my imagination or emotions.

The best solution for heartache here, is surrender to God.

[39. Gina2 said the following at 7:56 PM on Mar 23:]

39

Sigh....I find myself also thinking like most of the other posters here. I'm often telling my friends," where are all the good single men? - they're probably sitting around saying "where are all the good women?""
And depending what culture you're from, a lot of factors and family are involved in the process of finding a good mate. A delay in marriage weighs not just on my mind, but also on my family and extended family. But it's not just about finding a "good" mate, is it? For me, I'm looking for someone whose desires are aligned with mine so that we can serve God together. I don't need/want 10 or 5 or even 2 suitors....I just want the one that God intended for me. And I have every hope that as He is preparing my heart for what lies ahead, He is preparing him for the same pupose.
I just wish this didn't have to take so long.

[40. mr. x said the following at 8:10 PM on Mar 23:]

40

Jake,

I, too, have had the "crush" issue in the past. At the time, it seemed impossible that I would be interested in another woman ever again.

The solution? Go for a year without seeing or communicating with her (except for the occasional short how-are-you e-mail.) You'll be amazed at how she slowly fades from your mind.

I recognize that this might be difficult (especially if she's in your social circle and is hard to avoid) but you need to do something.

[41. Gina said the following at 8:19 PM on Mar 23:]

41

Jake has a point. You can't just turn feelings on and off, so that just adds one more complication to the whole mess!

[42. Darin said the following at 9:50 PM on Mar 23:]

42

Mandi, that's a very good point about not carrying motivation to the point that it becomes desperation. And also about waiting for God's timing.

The way that I see it, we are co-laborers with God. He creates opportunities for us according to his own perfect timing and his own perfect will. We in turn have to watch for those opportunities and respond to them when they occur.

I also believe that God gives us choices in regards to who we marry so not all of those opportunities are going to be successful. But like they say, "When one door closes another one opens."

Steve, there's been quite a bit of finger pointing going on all throughout this discussion. Perhaps we need to come up with a better way of approaching these subjects which will bring men and women together instead of dividing us against each other. God bless!

[43. Rachel said the following at 10:10 PM on Mar 23:]

43

Whoa! I am surprised and encouraged that their are so many christian men trying to initiate healthy, christian relationships. Do any of you live in NJ? :)
- 'Many guy's are ADVISED that until they are "financially secure" they have no business thinking about marriage.'- Many older married christians have told me that one of the most valuable times in their marriage was in the begining when they were struggling finiancially. They said that they strengthened themselves through their love for each other and faith in God. I think family members offer this advice because they don't want to see their loved one(s) struggle. Unfortunately, by avoiding the struggle, we miss the valuable lessons learned from it. Although many divorces are fueled by financial problems, we should not dodge the challenge. We should do our best to discipline ourselves financially as singles. Then when we begin a relationship, we can gracefully work to help each other reach the goal of finacial stability.

"Finally a guy finishes college and get's a job. But that's not good enough. Before he can think of marriage, he has to buy a home...a palace for his bride"-
Don't believe the hype.
I want a palace in heaven, and a modest home on earth. Even if it is a 1 bedroom apartment in the city. As long as I know that my future husband and I are doing what God has asked us to do, even a shack is o.k. because I know it is not my final destination.

"Most of us have the same phenomenon going on that many men here have noted: the women a) shoot them down, and/or b) they think a guy that is being intentional about marriage is desperate and weird (and trust me, we're not being desperate.)"-
Who are you asking out? You might want to reconsider your qualifications if you keep being attracted to the same type of person. I am currently doing that because I keep attracting non-christian men. They are friendly, respectful, funny, even a little religous, but not Christians. I need a miracle.

[44. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:38 PM on Mar 23:]

44

Steve Watters, in the blog posting you said:

"I remember a conversation I had with a guy named Jim who met his wife in the 80s. He described seeing a girl named Mary and thinking, 'I better marry her before someone else does.'"

I find it very interesting that you posted an earlier blog regarding a dating site just for "hotties" and were (rightly) critical it as most of us wouldn't make the cut.

However, based upon what Jim said, he viewed Mary as the "best" knowing NOTHING about her except her appearance.

Does this not indeed validate the notion that we (guys especially) put more emphasis on appearance than we ought to or more than we let on?

[45. Darin said the following at 10:41 PM on Mar 23:]

45

Gina, I am the only one on here who really talked about careers. So should I assume that your comments are directed at me? Or is it just a frustration that you're bringing in from the outside?

If it is directed at me, I encourage you to go back and try to find one place where I insinuated that "career" is a dirty word as it pertains to women. You won't find it because it didn't happen.

What I did state was that women often put their careers before marriage. I also sympathized with those women because they are often EXPECTED to put their careers first.

I think that it's wonderful if a woman wants to have a career before marriage and afterward too as long as it doesn't interfere with her role as wife and mother. (And yes, I know what Proverbs 31 says.)

In case this was just a complaint you brought into the discussion from elsewhere...don't sweat it. Most of us guys understand your need for income and something to do that you find fulfilling.

[46. heidi said the following at 10:50 PM on Mar 23:]

46

james: i agree. surrender to God is key. waiting on him is as well i believe. I have encountered many "decoys" in the past few years, which has been annoying, and yet many valuable lessons have been learned.
i am still learning what waiting on God actually means, as well as what i am to do in the meantime besides making daily decisions to trust my future to his perfect timing.

[47. Darin said the following at 11:26 PM on Mar 23:]

47

Rachel, your comment on finances and marriage was awesome. (Sigh! I live all the way on the other side of the U.S. -- Too bad.)

I also was raised on those same stories of young couples starting out with nothing but love, a strong work ethic and faith in God. But when I started looking for a wife I looked high and low but couldn't find a lady who shared that view. (And now it's too late because I've already got things going on my own.) Oh well...I guess that God can even work that together for good.

What you said about people worrying because so many marriages fail over finances is true. (Add to that our modern notion that money fixes everything.) My feeling is that it's not so much a lack of money that breaks marriages apart...it's materialism. Otherwise it would have been our grandparent's generation that had the high divorce rates instead of ours.

[48. Hannah said the following at 11:54 PM on Mar 23:]

48

I agree. I and some of my female friends (whom, in my personal opinion would be in love with were i a guy...) hang out with single guy friends reguarly. We don't spend time with them simply to look for husbands, but sometimes I wonder how dense they are to not "get it." Where are these so-called pursuers?

[49. J said the following at 11:54 PM on Mar 23:]

49

Very thought provoking post for me. I'm a single Christian woman closing in on age 25. I've never dated a Christian man, even though I'd very much like to. My last relationship was five, yes, FIVE years ago. God has blessed me with a great career, an outgoing personality, and I own my own home. Desperation is something I'm NOT and I'm more of a guy's girl, with interests in computers, TV, poker, and no clinginess and talk of DTR's. Although I'm no supermodel, I'm fairly attractive. And I couldn't get a date to save my life.
For three years, I've been living in a city in the Southwest with a very low number of Christian men. At my last church there were four single men between ages 22-32. This church had a body of 5,000. Another girl and I would hang out together and we hoped one of those guys would ask us out. I developed feelings for one of the guys, and he liked my friend. Unfortunately, she did not like him. It was like a tragic love triangle.
Several months ago, my shift at work changed and I no longer have weekends off. At the encouragement of a friend's father, I started attending a Wednesday night church service. Since then, I've gotten to know quite a few of the young adults and have been getting somewhat involved. I find I can relate well and enjoy spending time with the gals. They are great to hang out with.
But the guys... that's another story. They're from another planet! It's almost like they're still stuck in junior high youth group mode. One guy is in his 20s and his "thing" is to jump out and scare people by screeching at them. He also sent me a few really freaky messages on MySpace telling me that he thought of me as family and that I'd "better do things with the group." Another got offended when he asked me how much I paid for my house, and I tactfully told him that it was personal and I wanted to keep that to myself (especially since it's currently on the market!).
Growing up in the Northeast, we were never "huggers" and I feel very uncomfortable when strange guys I don't know maul me in a bear hug. It seems fairly inappropriate for a man to do that to a woman he doesn't know, as many women have past traumatic experiences with sexual abuse, etc... But when I told them I'd rather shake hands, again, they acted like I was being rude and inconsiderate. There are about a dozen single guys in this group, but frankly, I just don't feel at ease with most of them. They don't seem to have any social awareness at all, and it's sad if they think behaving this way will attract a wife.
Oddly enough, the one male that I didn't want to run away screaming from... is new to church and isn't a Christian.
The funny thing is, all of the women are totally normal. They're kind, considerate, polite, and have a good head on their shoulders. I'm interested in hanging out with them, and developing a bond. Too bad it's not the same for the guys.
My point is, that there are some major issues with today's young adults that need to be addressed in church and in God-fearing households. Men especially, need guidance from older, more mature men. They need to be taught how to treat ladies they encounter and how to conduct themselves socially. I honestly don't feel this is happening.
God help me, but at this point in my life, I am completely turned off to the idea of dating/marrying a Christian man. All of the single ones I have ever known have been downright strange.
Now, I don't want to be finger-pointing blame, or implying that women are perfect. We're not. There are messed up Christian women. I know that for a fact. I'm one of them, and that's why I'm so grateful for the Lord's providence and grace. It just that there IS a double standard between men and women. If a single woman dresses like a slob, slept around, and doesn't have a job -- she's an untouchable disaster. If a single guy does the same thing, he's still somehow considered a catch...simply because he's available.
Ladies, I believe we need to raise the bar. Don't go out with the guy who cheated on his last girlfriend, or who "sort of" asked you out but not really. You're worth more than that. Don't waste your time on a boy, when you can have a man. We've really sunk down to the bottom of the barrel. I realized this after I'd nearly dated a non-Christian who I was not attracted to at all. As Jewish rabbi Shmuley Boteach said, "In a world without ladies, there can be no gentlemen."

[50. Matt said the following at 12:08 AM on Mar 24:]

50

For the most part I have really only "gone out" with one girl and that was only for a few dates. At this point I'm not willing to ask out a random stranger and want to know a girl better before I'd be willing to ask them out. However, then it starts becoming tough to ask out someone out that has lots of mutual friends since I've seen how bad it becomes if it doesn't work out.

So, I need to meet someone that I don't know that well that I start liking pretty quickly. Then I'd be willing to ask her out. At least, that's how I got up the nerve to ask out the only girl I have asked out.

[51. Keb said the following at 4:28 AM on Mar 24:]

51

With a little creativity, a single room can become a palace. So it's just the prince charming that's needed, as far as I'm concerned. I think a lot of us are afraid that if things aren't -perfect- before we get married, we'll doom ourselves to divorce. Rationally, we know better; we know we aren't ever going to be perfect (in this life) and neither is the person we marry.

When I think about it, the people I'm closest to aren't the people who know me at my best. They're the people who know me and knew me at my worst and love me anyway. The shared experiences, good and bad, are what make for a close relationship.

I like the idea of a forum connected with Boundless. It could be a valuable resource.

[52. Kevin said the following at 9:03 AM on Mar 24:]

52

Reading through all the comments, it is interesting to see the differing perspectives of both men and women - I know for me at least, it's great to get both sides of the story.

My initial reaction to the story was to say "Now hold on, I'm a single guy who has tried his hardest to pursue and lead in multiple relationships now and it has always been the girl who has been noncommital." And while that's certainly true in my case, I can also turn the coin around and see how many of my fellow men have been less than stellar at pursuing ladies as well (not implying that I'm perfect at all or somehow have it all together).

It seems to me that, as a culture, we have a lot of misconceptions about marriage yes, but about dating too. Even in the so-called "Christian" dating culture. For example, I am currently attending seminary in the South (I'm from the Midwest originally) and the ideas that a lot of guys and girls have at this campus are just plain wrong, perhaps even unbiblical.

While I'm no expert - believe me - perhaps both men and women have some things that need to change in this arena. Yes, we men need to step up. Yes, we need to take more risk. And yes, we need to make sure that our priorities are correct (I'm in complete agreement that men are too focused on 'financial security' and use that as a materialistic crutch). At the same time however, women, you gotta give us a chance. I know numerous women in my circle of acquaintances alone who have the mentality that if a guy isn't this gorgeous, perfect Prince Charming from date one who says and does everything perfectly that he can't be worth dating. And that's only if you can get a date in the first place (which is quite a feat in itself since, at least down here, most women seem unwilling to show you any interest one way or the other)! Keep in mind, I'm at a conservative, evangelical seminary and this is the mentality there where you would certainly think that the fields would be "ripe for the harvest" - I can only feel for those of you who are in situations where the ratios are much worse. So all that to say, perhaps a shift in thought is in order for both genders?

May God teach us and bless each of us as we try to work our way through this difficult situation that we've found outselves in.

[53. Craig said the following at 9:07 AM on Mar 24:]

53

Wow, you guys and gals don't like each other very much, do you? lol...

You know what, guys? If you've asked out a lot of gals and none of them like you...it's you. Take a good look in the mirror, and stop thinking that the fact of your Christianity and "superior character" entitles you to the affection of a woman.

And gals? Here's the simple, honest answer. If he dated you once and didn't call again, he didn't like you that much. He didn't think you were attractive or he thought you were boring. Maybe he's crazy, or maybe you're unattractive and boring. Again, Christians are still people, and people are attracted to what they're attracted to, no way around it.

I don't think God is going to "lead" you to your soulmate--there are a lot of sad, lonely people out there. So if you desire marriage and aren't having much luck...improve thyself. Seriously. Nothing helps a girl see your inner character better than a decent wardrobe, good haircut and daily workout.

[54. Laura said the following at 10:00 AM on Mar 24:]

54

The "Prince Charming and Palace" package has piqued my interest and I'd like to throw another opinion in the pool, here. A guy friend and I were talking the other day about the notion of provision. Men want to care for their women. Women want to be cared for. Unfortunately, when men think of care, they tend to think of providing financial stability, etc. While this is important, that's generally not at all what women are thinking of - we want to be cared for relationally. We want our husbands to love us - that's all.

In all honesty, I have a secret hope (oops, not a secret anymore...) that my husband and I will be somewhat financially unstable in our first few years. I want to be scrupulously frugal with him, so we can succeed together. I think that would be so much better for our marriage than straining through the tough time right after college alone, then getting married once we've established independence.

[55. Darin said the following at 10:18 AM on Mar 24:]

55

J, that's an excellent comment about "raising the bar" in terms of not dating guys who are lazy, womanizers, or who otherwise degrade women. I might also add; don't even let on that you enjoy their flirtations. (Some women enjoy the attention even though they aren't especially fond of the source.)

My point is, if an honorable Christian man is present he will likely interpret that you don't have standards yourself.

Likewise, don't reward those twenty-something year old guys who refuse to grow up by dating them. (That's just encouraging their behavior and furthermore, the mature Christian guys will be insulted by it.)

Could this be the reason that the ladies who Steve mentioned weren't being pursued by more honorable men; because of the pseudo-relationships they were engaging in? I have no idea because I don't know the people involved...but it's something to think about.

OK GUYS --- Lets give the ladies some tips on why they might not be getting asked out. (Unless of course, you've asked out every single Christian girl you've ever met.) Here are a few tips of my own:

Tip #1) PATIENCE: Honorable men aren't into dating just for entertainment purposes and leaving a trail of broken hearts behind them. Before they ask you out they need some time to evaluate your character, your values, your maturity level...and if you even have a desire for marriage. (Trust me...the guys are sizing you up weather you realize it or not.)

If you get impatient and decide to settle for a pseudo-relationship with a less than honorable man...or if you decide to entertain the flirtations of a less than honorable man...he's quite likely to cross you off his list.

Tip #2) Do NOT go around quoting 1 Corinthians 7 (i.e. it's better to be single....) unless you are at least 100 miles away from the nearest man. You may as well be telling a guy, "Don't bother asking me out...I'm not even interested in marriage."

Tip #3) Don't exaggerate about how busy you are or use "I'm too busy" as an excuse to skip functions that you simply don't WANT to attend. You may as well be telling a guy, "Don't waste your time...I don't have time to persue a relationship." (I might add to this one, "Don't BE too busy either.")

Steve, I just finished reading Joshua Harris's book on courtship "Boy Meets Girl". It would appear that he knew his wife-to-be for many months before he asked if he could court her. (Wasn't he afraid that some other guy might snatch her up?) I wonder why he was such a slouch?

[56. Vincenzo said the following at 10:39 AM on Mar 24:]

56

J said
"Growing up in the Northeast, we were never "huggers" and I feel very uncomfortable when strange guys I don't know maul me in a bear hug."

LOL, I grew up in NJ so I know what you mean about not being a hugger.

[57. Chris Krycho said the following at 10:46 AM on Mar 24:]

57

Ted mentioned one coming back in some comments he made earlier in the year. I'm still waiting to see it. :p In all seriousness, I think it'd be much more conducive than some of these threads are for conversation anyway; and I'd love to chat with people in a slightly less directed way (since these conversations, while relatively wide-randing, are still constrained rather tightly by the original post).

J - I can definitely see why you'd be frustrated. Be assured: there are Godly Christian men out there who are looking for women like you. I think it's a tragedy that guys like the ones you run into where you are act the way they do. As for the double standard, I can see what you mean. Then again, it depends on where you are: a good female friend and I were chatting a few days ago about the tendency for there to be an opposite double standard: one that essentially slams guys all the time and puts girls on a pedestal. It's weird, and I don't get it. I think men have a huge amount of work to do... but so do women. We're all fallen, and the worldiness of this generation affects us all, though in different ways. Be encouraged to know that there are places where we guys are being challenged and discipled by older men, and don't give up!

[58. James said the following at 11:24 AM on Mar 24:]

58

J, I have seen that behavior myself in quite a few of my Christian brothers, and it often makes me feel embarrassed because I'm of the same gender.

However, there are also a good number of just Christian guys who are far more respectful of our sisters in Christ.

Just keep looking. There are mature Christian men out there.

Btw, WHERE in the Southwest?

[59. Ted Slater said the following at 11:49 AM on Mar 24:]

59

Chris -- I tried e-mailing you about "the forum," but my e--mail was "greylisted." Ah, well, I guess my words about it will remain a mystery.... ;-)

[60. Melissa said the following at 12:33 PM on Mar 24:]

60

Guys-
It's not easy to turn you down!! Very often, a girl will go out with a guy, or corespond a little bit and realize that the Lord isn't necessarily leading her life in the same direction he's leading you. I've run into this situation a couple of times, and despite the fact that these are wonderful, godly young men that I praise God for, and value as people, I just don't see how it would be in either of our best interests to pursue a relationship headed towards marriage.
It's HARD to say 'I don't think this is where the Lord is leading me.' (After prayerfully considering and recieving godly council.) I know what it takes for a guy to stick his neck out and ask a girl (or her father) to pursue something, but please don't get discouraged!! We're all only going to marry 1 person (hopefully) so don't lose heart and don't stop looking for opportunities to initiate!
Craig, I really appreciated your comments because it's true...Christians are also human (shocking, I know, right? ;)) But compatability and life direction are things that should be considered. You obviously can't judge a person's conversation skills from just 1 talk, but a few can give you a pretty good idea of how they relate to others and their surroundings. Since I'm a person that values communication, verbal interaction with a person is very important to me! If you don't seem to connect, or if conversation is always stale, then don't be so desperate to find a spouse that you overlook those details.
AND HYGIENE!!!
I've also felt that sometimes 'good christian guys' with 'superior character quality' suffer from 'super-model syndrome' and seem to think that aside from their apperance, they are entitled to a barbie-doll-gorgeous godly christian woman. Honestly, men, you consider physical attraction important right?? Just because women aren't steriotypically 'visual' creatures, we'd love it it some of you would look like you made an effort to care about how you appear. Not because we're being shallow, but it helps us to feel that you respect and honor us. Whether or not you feel that you are attractive, it IS attractive when we can tell that you care about yourselves and us in that way.

[61. Chris Krycho said the following at 12:53 PM on Mar 24:]

61

Weird. I just tried to send an e-mail directly to line@boundless.org and it bounced. Something very odd is going on. I'm hoping the e-mail from you will still come through, as I'm hoping that your message will just get resent by your server (if the MTA just sent its normal "you got greylisted" message, rather than a permanent delivery failure message). C'est la vive, I suppose.

[62. red said the following at 12:55 PM on Mar 24:]

62

"I better marry her before someone else does."
Are there any guys thinking like that these days?

[American perspective, no comment on other countries/cultures.]

No. Reasons:

1) Marriage is only a desirable state among Christians anymore, and the percentage of true Christians is small.
[thus, the "too few singles / location" problem]

2) Those who are born with or have obtained "good looks" AND confidence can have their choice of a mate, know this, and have time on their side. [thus, the "pseudo-relationship" problem]

3) Those who don't will never be engaged in a "competition" about them (girls), or lack the confidence to be involved in one (guys). [thus, the "no one is interested in me" / "no direction" problems]

Observations, for those who would be critical of the above:

1) Jacob worked for 14 YEARS to obtain beautiful Rachel, proving as importunate in marital pursuit as he later did in wrestling the angel of God for a blessing. Rachel, in turn, bore the choice son of their years (Joseph), who later rescued them from famine.

2) Sarah, Rebekah, Rachel, Joseph, David, Abagail, Bathsheba, Tamar, Abishag, Esther, Job's daughters after his affliction, and there are others, all are referred to as "beautiful of form".

3) Physical attraction is a key initiatior of non-arranged real marriages (Deut. 21:11). Physical _and_ spiritual beauty together in youth make one a prime marriage candidate. For the physical without the spiritual, see Prov. 11:22. For the spiritual without the physical, the attraction comes after marriage (Prov 31:10-31, 1 Peter 3:1-6). A culture defined by physical beauty and against arranged marriage though, leaves many of the latter scenario not marrying at all... is that what we find today?

Applications:
Lord willing - when I meet a specific financial milestone (projected late summer), I will embark on my search for a mate. Not only will I fast and pray beforehand, but I plan to work out more and lose some weight, and seek out a stylist and fashion consultant (either professionals or friends) before I start down this road...

Post-script:
Add to all this, that Christ is my love above all, and I am satisfied with Him. As a guy, I will do what is required of me, both by Scripture and cultural custom to prepare for and seek a mate, but if God does not bless me in this way, I should not be disappointed. It is interesting that the great reformation preachers speak so little of marriage and family life, but yet so much of the riches of Christ and His salvation - would it be that we too would "Focus on Christ" instead of only "Focus on the Family".

[63. Chris B. said the following at 1:31 PM on Mar 24:]

63

I see a lot of good discussion on this subject, along with a lot of frustrated men and women.

While it is true that we could all do more to make ourselves more approachable or open to godly relationships--and avoid worldly relationships--we must as some point be willing to break the cycle, and be willing to sacrifice in order to transform our situation. In this context, the biblical mandate to sacrifice falls squarely upon men.

Paul's words in Ephesians 5 are pertinent to this situation, when Paul commands, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word" (Ephesians 5:25-26). Sacrifice is the key to proper love for husbands towards their wives; and, by extension, men who are pursuing their future wives. In the end, all of our complaints only lead to negative thinking and excuses, which undermine our efforts to pursue godly relationships. Men, we can blame women for our failures, or we can be prepared to sacrifice, and win their hearts with Christ-like love.

Any Christian woman should honor such a sacrifice, and it will certainly not go unrewarded by the Lord.

Concerning the request for a forum on Boundless in which singles could meet one another, I support the idea. As long as we see the same vigilant content moderation as we find on Boundless Line, I can't see how facilitating godly relationships would be a bad measure. Naturally some relationships will always end in break-ups and heartache, but that should not deter us from responding to God's call to marry.

[64. Charles H. said the following at 2:02 PM on Mar 24:]

64

Second the idea of how much fun a forum could be. I'd love to meet more Christians in my area. From Rachel's posting I know she's within a day's drive of me -- and I bet that's a lot of others here!

Reasons I haven't asked some women for second dates:

- She isn't Christian (hopefully not applicable to people here!)

- She is already married to her career. Gina, you're absolutely right that women need to support themselves before marriage. I've dated a law school graduate, and have gone out with other physicians. But the flip side is that many professional women seem to make their jobs their lives. (Probably true of us men, too!) In fairness to them, they're trying to overcome decades of "You're not really a woman if you don't have both a family and a career" in the culture.

- She has so much emotional baggage that I give up. I've met women who successfully dealt with horrible situations in their lives, to the point where I would believe they were ready for marriage. I've also met many who had yet to deal with very minor issues and so let them become relationship killers.

- She has serious problems in her Christian life and no interest in solving them. Again, I'm certainly not perfect either, but the "I'm already perfect" attitude sure turns me off in a hurry.

- We just aren't compatible. If every joke I tell gets a blank look, the chances of a second date are zero. If I'm boggled by the things she finds interesting or attractive, it's also not looking good. But you know what? That's not sin. That's human difference. If you aren't compatible with someone on the first date, why keep banging your head against the wall?

J, I *definitely* feel your pain about meeting people at church. I am getting accustomed to being one of a small handful of people in my generation at decent-sized churches. Part of this is attributable to abortion; our generation is missing millions of people, some of whom would doubtless be in church. But another part is Christians who simply don't go to church, or people who could have been raised in the faith but whose parents didn't bother to teach them.

Last but not least, let's not lay all the blame for emphasizing appearance on men. I can't count how many women I've met who just want a guy who's kind, sweet, and considerate -- and 6ft+, athletic, wealthy... Sure, guys fall into this trap. But so do women.

[65. Darin said the following at 2:16 PM on Mar 24:]

65

To all of you ladies who pointed out that "money isn't everything" -- Thank you! You've restored my faith!

I also need to clarify my own position a little bit. Us guys shouldn't carry the "bonding through our financial hardship" thing too far. I'm fine with the idea if it's in the context of "not putting off marriage". But a guy who wants to get married shouldn't feel like it's a time to be irresponsible or to "celebrate his freedom". If he can get ahead now and save his future wife from that stress ... so much the better.

And now back onto the subject of why godly women don't always get asked out.

Come on guys, I think some of the ladies want some answers. Here are a couple more tips that I thought of myself:

Tip #1) When you are talking about your standards and what you expect out of a man ... don't be threatening about it (i.e. "Any man that I go out with had better remember to open my door for me or I'll give him a piece of my mind!"). Noone likes to feel like they're going to get their head chopped off the first time they make a mistake.

Tip #2) Don't go overboard when talking about your standards. A lot of women tend to do this when they're talking to their lady friends and believe me; the guys are listening. I've known some great Christian gals who never got asked out because they had given themselves the label "impossible to please".

Tip #3) Guys are watching for many of the same clues that you look for. Take "anger management" for example. Guy's watch to see how you respond to disagreements ... such as the ones that often occur in discussions like this one. Guys respect women who know how to disagree respectfully. Women who become sarcastic in their responses receive a big demerit. (You might be surprised to know that to some guys biting your tongue is often even worse than being sarcastic. Guys HATE the silent treatment and they hate being left in the dark about what they said/did wrong.)

[66. Jonathan from Canada said the following at 2:49 PM on Mar 24:]

66

J - what a tragic story. I look back at my college years when I was total goofball and realize my buddies and I probably ruined the impressions of Christian guys for dozens of Christian girls. Yet it was so much fun.

Fortunately, college is over.

[67. Elizabeth said the following at 2:58 PM on Mar 24:]

67

I have been reading this blog for some time, and I thought I would comment on something that I feel has been overlooked. What about those women (and I would be one of them) who feel called to a specific area of service? For instance, I feel God is calling me to do mission work overseas. I would like to be married, but I believe that this calling is stronger than any one to get married, so I will not consider any man if he does not feel a similar calling. Many of the comments on the issue of finding a husband/wife centre on the idea of finding a Christian spouse, without seeming to consider the idea of a central vision/mission for the couple and whether this matches. (And there are considerations of calling, I find there is more about whether the woman is willing to follow the husband's calling) I am wondering what some of the opinions on this subject are?

[68. Mark said the following at 4:05 PM on Mar 24:]

68

Darin, had some excellent advice. Craig's was worth heeding as well, though it's not a sure-fire recipe for success. I'm all about the good personal hygiene, dressing well and working out. I've even got a good job lined up after graduation and what have I reaped with all of it: nada.

That being said, as I write and prepare to defend my dissertation, I've had to stop worrying about other things that I used to lose sleep over--questions like "will I ever get married?" and related issues. Perhaps I'm starting to wax nostalgic now, but I've realized how much God has blessed me during my last four years of grad. school, all of the great friends I've made, and how I've grown spiritually. When I was worrying about things that were not completely under my control (I can only initiate, I can't make them date/court/marry me) I often ignored the other areas of my life in which I was growing and experiencing God. Lately, I've been reminded of Peter's walking on the water toward Jesus. Why did Peter start to sink? Because he took his eyes off of Christ, doubted and became afraid (Matthew 14: 29-31).

God provides what we need, but He never gives us more than we need and He never gives it before we need it. Trying to find a godly spouse can be infuriating, but I believe this helps to build the character that that person of the opposite sex will one day find oh-so appealing.

[69. Eric said the following at 5:23 PM on Mar 24:]

69

Sina wrote:
"Perhaps we need the others to chime in...those who are not asking girls out and girls who are turning guys down."

Well, I recently asked a girl out for the first time, with the intentions of exploring a dating relationship, but it was a *long* road for me to get to that state.

I suffered a hurt, call it a "heart wound", very young, which caused me to develop a mental mechanism where, throughout my adolescence and high school/college years, if I caught myself developing an attraction to a girl, I'd laugh it off and tell myself "yeah, right - nothing'll happen". And sure enough, after telling myself that, after a while those feelings would go away, and I'd be delighted that I got rid of that "problem".

As you might expect, that led to nothing good, internally - sadness, depression, cynicism - all regarding thinking about romance. I had so many other blessings to be thankful for and be happy about that I tried not to think about this area of life. Most times, I really didn't think about it. It was better that way.

It was only recently, when I identified this heart wound and asked the Lord to take me through it, that I found healing. And that desire to identify it was caused by the marriage of my best friend, who pretty much had the same dating experience as I (none). Through the witness of his godly courtship (and marriage, wow!) with a wonderful woman, I knew the same just might be possible for me as well! *That* was an extremely emotional revelation to say the least.

Through awesome talks with both him and his wife, along with a few great Christian books and some particular sermons, the Lord healed me. And I came to a place where through reliance on the Lord, I think I can become a godly boyfriend and husband.

I still struggle somewhat when I've had a setback (she said she was too busy), and the enemy whispers, "You don't have what it takes", "That stuff only happens in movies and fairy tales", and "What makes you believe that you're actually worthy of a woman?"; but I know that He who is within me is greater than He who is in the world, and that He will be faithful to complete the good work in me which He began.

A section of another Boundless article touched on these deceptions - see "Less Criticism, More Support" in What Guys Wish You Knew:

"OK. This is going to sound like the guys are making excuses, but hear us out. Everything — I mean everything — in this world is trying to keep us from maturing into manhood."

When you consider the enemy is part of this world, it makes even more sense.

Another quote from that article:
"Most young men have had little in the way of authentic Christian masculinity modeled for them, so they're blazing new territory. They're not there yet, but they're working on it, and they are often as disappointed in their progress as you are. Just remember, even though there's a lot more of what he doesn't know than what he does know, he's learning, so don't give up on him yet. Your support means everything to him. Ask how you can pray for him; speak words of encouragement; if you notice his efforts toward maturity and manhood, let him know. It'll do wonders for him."

I don't know if ladies realize how powerful their gentle encouragement is to a Christian guy...

So to answer the question, "Where's the motivation, guys?", in my case, I never pursued a girl because of the above.

The things I would ask Boundless to do *much* more of is to encourage guys to identify the heart issues which cause all of the symptoms (bad behaviors) they and the ladies observe:
- Extended adolescence
- Lack of clarity or intentionality
- Passivity
- Lack of leadership
These are all symptoms of a deeper heart issue, in my opinion, and while discussion of them is certainly valid, oftentimes the cause of them lies deeper.

I'm sorry to say it, but posts like these would, in the past, discourage me immensely. It's only now that I have hope that the Lord will make me into the man He wants me to be, that I can come away from reading them without despairing. At the end of these posts, or any articles which focus on the failings of men, *please* give us guys some encouragement that we *can* actually overcome these failings. Just some feasible "next steps" would be incredibly helpful.

Instead of me asking myself, "Boundless, Where's the Motivation, Guys?"; I'd love to see articles where the end result is direct encouragement.

[70. Bethany said the following at 5:40 PM on Mar 24:]

70

In addition to the forum suggestion, what about an event similar to the Rocky Mountain Christian Singles Mixer mentioned in January? Or - simply a conference, like New Attitude, for Boundless readers? I think anything that would allow us to meet each other, in person or in a forum, would be something to consider.

[71. Melissa said the following at 5:43 PM on Mar 24:]

71

Mark, thanks so much for your post!! It's such a great reminder that we need to remain God-focused ESPECIALLY in this area of our lives!
Being content with the lot that God has set for us is, I feel, an important concept for us to embrace because if we don't, then we won't be fully satisfied in any realm of our existence. INCLUDING our future marriage!
We can also take heart because our Heavenly Father knows us infinitely better than we know ourselves, and he IS a god of beauty. If we can revel in the beauty of where he has placed us, he will provide us with something (a relationship maybe...) of exceptional beauty, so much more than we would have planned for ourselves. If we have faith in his supremacy, we know without any doubt that he orders our lives for OUR GOOD and HIS GLORY!!
(On the flipside, when we feel like we don't necessarily trust him,or maybe should help him out with his plan for our lives, it's a direct affront to the creator of the universe and lover of our souls.)
BTW, loving the idea of a forum! Could be a lot of fun!

[72. Mike said the following at 5:55 PM on Mar 24:]

72

It's a two way street on this issue. All I hear from single women is that they are looking for an honest, hardworking, decent christian man and yet they are still waiting for the " handsome man, highly successful riding on the beach on a horse with his hair blowing in the wind in slow motion". You can have it both ways ladies, as a single man, it's very discouraging trying to enter the dating scene with women who call themselves christian and yet they fall into what the secular image of what a man is and should be.

[73. Chris Krycho said the following at 6:09 PM on Mar 24:]

73

Elizabeth:

I agree with you, there. A lot of times there's such a big focus on getting married that we forget that there are good reasons - reasons beside lack of commitment, etc. - that keep people from pursuing some of those around them. Like you, I have some pretty specific calling on my life, at least so far as I understand it at this point. A significant chunk of that involves being overseas for an extended period of time (to be determined by God); and I am probably going into vocational ministry after that. There are things that go with that that simply are not the life that most Christian women are looking for - and that's all right. It does, however, limit my choices significantly.

There are some different schools of thought here. One of the men who's discipling me - a very Godly man who I respect immensely - takes the view that as long as you marry someone who will follow God, you're fine, because if you are following Him together, you're in good shape. I see his point, but I disagree with it a little: if I, feeling led as I am to be overseas for a good chunk of time, marry a woman who really feels strongly led to be working with elementary school kids in ghettos in America, then there are going to be some problems: not least that one or the other of us is simply going to have to be walking in a direction contrary to the things God has burdened our heart with. Now, at the same time, people can change people's hearts and desires. (He has mine... if you'd asked me a year ago I'd have said there was no way I'd ever be going overseas; and even six months ago I was more just confused about where I was going than anything else.) So there's a balance, I think.

Tips for the ladies:

(1) Don't be afraid to let guys know (in a general sense, not direct to one particular guy) that you are actually interested in marriage. Might not sound like a big deal, but honestly, it is. So many women are not interested in marriage, and especially in kids. I will not marry a woman - and most men in my circles wouldn't - who isn't interested in being a mom over any career. [Guys, take heart, I know quite a few of those kinds of Godly women who really are interested in pursuing family over career.] [Ladies, I am not condemning your having careers!] It's always a huge encouragement to me when some of my female friends are talking about their interest in marriage and children... and it gets me excited to pursue, challenges me to buck up the courage and go for it, knowing that there is a reward for it!

(2) Don't rule a guy out just because he's not your idea of what he ought to look like. Just as you often point out to us the frustration of not being one of the "top five" girls in the church, etc., guys have the same issue. There are some amazingly Godly guys I know who just aren't that good looking, and others who might be a bit shy or slightly lacking in social graces - but are working on it. Don't be afraid to give those guys a chance. You might discover a jewel of a man who, though quiet and possibly even awkward in large groups, is amazing one on one, who is pursuing God like crazy, etc. You might not, either, and that's fine.

(3) Don't let the idea that your beauty should be inward be an excuse for sloppiness. Just as some of you have commented that you appreciate it when we have good hygiene, try to keep in decent shape, etc., we appreciate those same things in you. A lot. You don't have to be the thinnest woman on the planet, or even close; you don't have to be in perfect shape. Just the fact that you're staying healthy really does mean something to a lot of us. Put on a little makeup - not much, but a little - when you go to church. Dress nicely when you go to church, too, if that fits with the church culture (and maybe if it doesn't) - and this one goes for guys, too. I really appreciate the girls who take the extra time for that, just as you've noted you appreciate it when we do.

(4) Focus on growing in Christ. Find a way to be discipled and mentored by someone older than you - and then turn around and pour it back into those younger than you. I know of almost nothing more attractive to me than women who are actively pursuing a deeper walk with Christ and pouring that out into those who are coming along behind them. (Of course, your purpose in this shouldn't be to catch a guy's eye - but it may well be a consequence of it.)

(5) Hard as it might be to pull off, don't be afraid of a long distance relationship. One of the most amazing relationships I've watched is that of one of my best friends, who is now engaged to the man she started dating a year and a few months ago. They had a hard time of it, but their relationship is, I think, stronger for it. He would drive up here for a weekend, stay in my room so they could have time together, then drive back down; she would do similarly. One of the most exciting moments of my life was when she called me over Christmas break and told me they were engaged. It's hard, and it's not for everyone - but don't run from it.

That's all I can think of for right now; I'll be back if something more comes up in my brain.

If I had to sum up my thoughts on the matter in general: let's try to avoid a double standard. Guys should be willing to see to the inner beauty of a woman... and likewise women towards men. Guys should be willing to pursue... and women should be willing to be pursued. The responsibility is on all our shoulders to do this together.

Ted, you might try another e-mail address of mine. I've switched it for this particular posting.

[74. Laur said the following at 6:40 PM on Mar 24:]

74

i say, bring on the forum!

i think there are oodles and oodles of things wrong with all of us. even so, i think that, with an attitude of submission to God and Christ-like love, we are going to be fine. obedience, y'all. obedience is huge. we must remember that, no matter how badly we want to get married, we are going to be ok whether we do or not - because God is good and kind and isn't going to withold what is best for us.
we are loved by an all-wise and utterly merciful God.

that said, i'm all for us all "meeting" and chatting it up more often. you know what i'm saying? :)

[75. rich said the following at 6:42 PM on Mar 24:]

75

Darin,

I agree with those "tips" you offer. Reading them was one of those situations where I thought, "gee, I've always felt/thought this way, but couldn't quite put the feelings/thoughts into communication that would be powerfully stated. Boy I have tried, and yet I always seem to get tongue tied or always seem to stick my foot in my mouth.

I'm actually experiencing some of this right now: I'm currently pursuing a woman, but she is ullltra busy...more busy than I am (and I keep myself pretty occupied). This is frustrating. I'm the type of guy that wants to actively lead, pursue, and woo. I want to bring the right woman into my life and "show her around;" I want to involve her in my life. That by no means means that I "chase her around." Without getting into it, I think I have an appropriate sense of space. But if I don't have room to do those things I just mentioned, or if I don't feel like she's appreciative of that, I leave her alone.

[76. annie said the following at 7:07 PM on Mar 24:]

76

Good stuff everyone! As I have been reading through all of your comments, I've thought "Oh, how I can relate to the frustrations." So, many times I have thought, "Lord, where are the Godly guys who will initiate the relationship?"
But, as I've been processing and praying to God, I have just been reminded of God's goodness. You know, He is a big God. He is bigger than our circumstances whether it be location, finances, population. The thing I love about God is that He specializes in the impossible! As we seek Him wholeheartly and walk in His will, He honors that. And He says as we delight ourselves in Him, He will give us the desires of our heart (Ps. 37:4). I've seen Him do it in so many areas of my life. And I know that as I wait on Him and remember that His heart for me is good, He will bring along the right guy when the time is right. So, be encouraged in staying true to God. His heart for you all is so big! His timing is perfect. And as you seek His face, He will give you wisdom to know the next step. And the blessings of the Lord are so worth the wait and the emotional turmoil we so often feel!!

[77. Annie said the following at 7:17 PM on Mar 24:]

77

Good stuff everyone! As I have been reading through all of your comments, I have thought "Oh, how I can relate to the frustration!" There have been so many times when I have asked "Where are the Godly guys who will initiate a relationship?"
But, I cannot help but be reminded of God's goodness. He is a big God! The thing I love so much about Him is that He specializes in the impossible! So often we limit Him. God is bigger than our circumstances of location, population, finances. As we look to Him and walk in His will, He honors our obedience. He says as we delight ourselves in Him, He will give us the desires of our heart (Ps. 37:4). I have seen this happen in so many areas of my life. And I know that when the time is right, I will meet the right guy. So, be encouraged! God's heart for you all is so big. His timing is perfect and I know the blessings that come from Him will be well worth the wait! Keep seeking His face.

[78. Darin said the following at 7:26 PM on Mar 24:]

78

Since the subject of physical appearance keeps coming up I feel obliged to put in my own two cents worth.

First of all, I agree that physical appearance does play a role in initial attraction. But, as you get to know a person, your PERCEPTION of how they look changes (for better OR worse) according to the inner qualities that you see in them.

Some people would therefore draw the conclusion that since inner beauty is what counts the most in the long run, then physical appearance shouldn't matter at all. Here's the problem with that reasoning: How do you get to the point of "secondary attraction" unless you're able to attract someone initially?

Here are some pointers if you find yourself lacking in the "skin deep" kind of beauty:

1)First, change what you can (i.e. hygeine, diet, exercise, etc.)...and forget about the rest.

2)Second, get involved in a group (church singles, cell group, etc.) where you can get to know people on a deeper level outside of a dating relationship.

3)Show hospitality; pay people compliments (to everyone in the group that is); refuse to participate in gossip; be cheerful; be positive; be confident (i.e. don't allow negative thoughts about yourself). -- Good advice for all of us really!

4)Give it time. It might take someone as long as a couple of years to get to know you on that level...but the up-side to that is that you probably won't need as long of a courtship because you will already know each other.

And now I have a comment for everyone: Many people impair their ability to get from "initial attraction" to "secondary attraction" because of L-U-S-T. I'm not just talking about drooling over the swimsuit calender (guys) or the "men of...whatever" calender (ladies). I'm talking about the more subtle things too. I'm convinced that many guys fail to initiate relationships because of this single issue...and many women turn guys down for the same reason.

[79. Betty said the following at 7:54 PM on Mar 24:]

79

Hi everyone,

From reading the postings one question comes to mind "Is there such a thing as trying to hard?" I don't mean to back track and discourage all the well-meaning effort but perhaps we all need to have a little more faith that God works at his own time and pace, and a little less angst, concerning the vocation of marriage. (Yes, vocation).
When discussing relationships, my brother once said to me that the more one pursues something, the more it moves beyond one's grasp. From experience, I can see that he is right. (Never thought I'd say that!) Let go and let God. Afterall, there is only 'one thing needful.' What if we focused more on living the life to which He calls us, believing, to paraphrase from Mark's posting, that He will give us what is necessary, when it is necessary, in order to better answer that call?

[80. Caleb said the following at 10:56 PM on Mar 24:]

80

When I was seeking God about marriage, He revealed something to me that was very profound and took my relationship with Him to a much greater level. He showed me that there were three stages to the Hebrew tabernacle. There was the outer court, the inner court, and the Holy of Holies. Many people remain in the outer court. They are saved, but they do not press any further in the knowledge of God. Some press into the inner courts. In the inner court, you experience His presence, you get revelation on the Word, and you let your prayers and petitions be made known to Him. But few venture into the Holy of Holies. There is an ache inside us to stand before the manifest presence of God, to go beyond the wisdom of God and the knowledge of God, to God Himself. It is terrifying, because it requires us to come face to face with our deepest core need for unconditional love that we have tried to fill so many times. It requires us to strip ourselves of everything that could possibly satisfy and come before Him totally naked, without any covering of our shortcomings and failures, awaiting His answer. When you hear Him say, "I love you" it will change your life forever, because now you know that He accepts you despite all your imperfections, and you are filled with confidence. But you must EXPERIENCE it in the place of prayer and fasting and desparation for God. It is not enough to know it mentally. So many people turn aside to other things, even good things, like marriage, to ease that ache. But they go through the rest of their lives always wondering...was there more? They are never fully confident in who they are because there are things in their lives that they never laid bare before God in that place, and they are haunted by the thought that He would reject them for it if He knew. I believe many of you are standing at the veil of the entrance to the Most Holy Place of intimacy with God, to encounter Him at a level far beyond what you have walked in thus far. He is calling you to come closer, from knowing His wisdom, knowledge, and book, to knowing Him. He wants you to experience the joy and confidence of being fully known yet fully accepted. Is there a place for marriage? Absolutely! (Anyway, as a single guy, I sure hope so) But it is after an encounter in that place that you are changed, and you come out radiating the presence, the beauty, and the love of God. That is what the Bible talks about when it refers to the inner beauty of the heart. That is when it is filled with His love and is coming from the inside out. You've seen people like that, haven't you? It comes from the place of encounter. Every single person who was significant in the Bible had a supernatural encounter with God. He wants to give it to you more than you want it. Just ask. Then you will be irresistible to the opposite sex, when you are consumed by His love. :)

[81. DanL said the following at 11:19 PM on Mar 24:]

81

At the risk of being somewhat blunt, does Steve Watters ever read any of the comments on this site? There are innumerable previous posts on The Line filled with comments by men who are trying to pursue women, but who achieve minimal success. Granted Watters notes that there are “some” men amongst Boundless’s readership who are “solid and well-motivated,” and says that he is not “trying to pile onto guys.” Yet, piling onto guys is precisely what the does, and given that these responses from _numerous_ male readers to previous posts seem to show the an overwhelming majority of them are trying to intent ally pursue women I am forced to view Watters’s choice of the word “some” was an attempt to minimize this section of this male readership.

I hope I am wrong, but I’m start to sense the real message of Boundless that real Christian men are successful with women, and those who are not are “losers” who aren’t worth caring about. Note the way Watters is quick to assume that if men are single, then that likely means they are “acting like they have all the time in the world,” and have no motivation. Never mind that he apparently reaches this conclusion from “stories” he heard rather any interactions with real male Boundless readers, who routinely claim otherwise in the comments. It makes perfect sense if you view men who have been turned down a time or two to be an embarrassment to the church and wished to pretend they didn’t exist. Earlier this month The Line ran an article that amongst other things noted who men have no support structure assist them through romantic breakups. But nothing since then as seem to have dealt with this subject since, evidently, men who get dumped aren’t the kind of men who matter.

This seems to also be echoed in many of the comments here. From Chris B. (Mar 23. 1:01 pm): “The truth is that most of the guys with a lot of motivation to pursue godly young women are already taken, because they pursued the woman to whom God led them without hesitation.” From Zeph Greenwell (Mar. 23 2:08 pm): “Guys who want to marry do marry.” (There would seem to be numerous counter-examples to this [me, for example], but I guess they don’t count as real “guys.”) From Craig (Mar. 24. 9:07 am): “You know what, guys? If you've asked out a lot of gals and none of them like you...it's you.”

It seems like every story on Boundless about a man and women always ends up being a success story where they get married in the end. I wish that they could run a few where the relationships didn’t work out. I also wish they would be careful about drawing conclusions based on the occasional story they here coupled with letters written to Boundless (and I highly suspect women are much more likely to write to such sources on such topics). And while I’m making a wish list, perhaps next time they could just give me a nice paper cut and pour lemon juice on it rather than run posts like this one.

[82. BDB said the following at 11:30 PM on Mar 24:]

82

Getting the Second Date:

OK, I've had some time to think about it, and here's a few more observations. These are all personal observations over a meal, whether on a date or at the same table with both women and their date:

- What % of the conversation is the woman talking about herself? Does she ever ask her date questions? Does she listen to the answers and follow up with another relevant question?

- Is the woman ramping down her intellect in order to not intimidate the man? I'm surprised at the number of women who do this instead of considering an intellectual match. I know women who've married both ways - those with the intellectual match are much happier.

- If someone orders the most expensive item on the menu, she should eat ALL of it. Otherwise, order a less expensive, smaller lobster. Or steak. Or whatever. (Though I wouldn't be offended to see a woman eat an entire lobster and 32-oz Porterhouse steak in front of me in one sitting.)

- Be respectful to your date and to the wait staff. I'm appalled when I see a wife verbally tear down her husband as soon as he steps away from the table. Those aren't happy marriages.

- Find a way to pay at least three compliments - only one of which on appearance. This requires paying attention to your date! But it gets you invited back.

- As to Elizabeth's point about what to do when you know God's calling...it did change what I was looking for. If someone laughed when I discussed what I felt God had called me to do, I wouldn't pursue anything further with her. On the flip side, I did run into someone who appeared to have the same calling that I did. When we went to lunch the conversation was...unexpectedly good.

[83. Chris Krycho said the following at 11:39 PM on Mar 24:]

83

Betty, while I understand the sentiment behind that, and largely agree with it, my concern is that it's often used to justify a lack of intentionality and pursuit on the guys' part and a lack of responsiveness to that intentionality on the girls' part. It's all to easy to develop a "sit back and let God do the work" attitude out of what you describe. In reality, it's somewhere in between: we need to be conscientiously pursuing it, but letting go of the angst and frustration and trusting that God will in His own time. It is, as so many things are, not a case of "either-or" but rather "both-and."

[84. J said the following at 11:44 PM on Mar 24:]

84

James, when I say Southwest, I mean the western tip of Texas.

If you all are looking for another place to vent/discuss, a bunch of single Christians have a blog together. It's become quite a hotspot. We've talked about all of these topics and more.

http://fabulousfemales.blogspot.com

As a disclaimer about the name, it started off being girls, then, one-by-one, guys kept asking to join!

[85. BDB said the following at 11:55 PM on Mar 24:]

85

Betty,

You and Chris and Elizabeth are very right. And I believe that is even more true for those of us who have already submitted other chunks of our life over to God. By the time we've submitted to God's calling, we've probably learned (sometimes the hard way) that God's gifts are better than our own efforts, as long as we listen and are obedient. Marriage will come as a gift, not as something we engineer for ourselves.

[86. J said the following at 12:04 AM on Mar 25:]

86

(Though I wouldn't be offended to see a woman eat an entire lobster and 32-oz Porterhouse steak in front of me in one sitting.)

This sounds absolutely mouthwatering right now! The best I've done is an 18 oz. porterhouse. One of the best meals of my entire life!

[87. Samuel PG said the following at 12:07 AM on Mar 25:]

87

Reading through many of these posts (but not all, there are A LOT), the recurring theme of woundedness seems to resound. I am glad to see everyone being willing to share tips and advice that will hopefully help everyone to improve themselves, but the background music of bitterness toward God and members of the opposite sex seems to be present. I can understand why this can be so upsetting, but maybe we should each reflect on whether or not we are harboring anger toward God for not yet providing a husband or wife or bitterness toward the opposite sex for not responding to us the way we would like. The resentment is understandable, but as Christians we are not allowed even reasonable resentment. Now might just be the time to forgive.

[88. J said the following at 12:13 AM on Mar 25:]

88

Samuel, at this point in my existence, I know that I can't get married unless it's a man who truly loves God. Sorry to sound jaded and pessimistic, but I'm skeptical that a guy like that exists -- who would also be compatible with myself. So I've resigned myself to being basically asexual and dreaming about joining a convent.

[89. xeres said the following at 12:29 AM on Mar 25:]

89

Hi all!

I know this is late but my tips sum up for a few thing.

1) Trusting is an active action, an intentional act, not something just simply being overly open. In regards to marriage and getting to that, if you trust God for your marriage, then be watchful and willing to anticipate the opportunities God will give you. Look forward to it so you won't have be on the prowl all the time.

2) Learn how to be a servant (in a bibical mindset). When you're making a connection with someone you're interested in, focus on how to serve that person gladly. If you become romantically involved, keep learning. If married, keep learning and take your time to learn.

3)Don't pull the soulmate thing. It's one thing to talk about marriage but it's another if you said you're looking for your soulmate. The concept is just downright narcissitic and mindless. Not to mention it puts unnatural and unnecessary pressure. If you want a soulmate, get a cat.

4)You don't just know. Hardly anyone buys furniture that way. I'm sure most of us won't vote for a President that way either.I don't understand why in marriage, they don't participate the mental process of counting the cost.Marriage is a something that you need to actually weigh the scales, reflect, and explore.

5) Learn to love God first. Through loving God, you will learn to love people too, not just for the sake of loving.

The rest of other things are already mention from the previous comments. they are all good too.

[90. xeres said the following at 12:48 AM on Mar 25:]

90

DanL, what you just said right that is downright harsh but at some points true. Tone it down a little bit. Just a little bit. They don't intent to give off that message. Otherwise, the writers would be complete hypocrite. I do admit, however, they have misconception just like anyone else. I think when we all are so bitter at being shot down in the relationship department that we just want to say. whatever. We are dealing with humans. I always give people the benefit of the doubt even if I may come off as naive

[91. Erika said the following at 1:10 AM on Mar 25:]

91

Wow. Clearly this is a topic that tons of us have strong feelings about, and I'll freely admit that I read the relationship posts and discussions far more eagerly than many other topics. I'm still trying to figure it out as well.
Some of us girls have, unfortunately, had too much time to develop a strong sense of independence. And I really do mean unfortunately. In the last 8 years, I have been in numerous roommate situations where I have had to be the "tough" girl of the group... kill the spiders, fix the shower, change tires, move the heavy objects, troubleshoot the computer, and far to many other things that tend to fall into the guy's realm of home and social life simply because I didn't have the patience to wait for someone else to show up and kill, fix, or move whatever it was and I quite honestly could do it. So, that's become a part of how I see my identity, and while I sometimes get so tired of being "strong" enough, I don't know anything else. As crazy as it seems, having that independence is what makes me insecure about being in a serious relationship becuase it would basically redefine my "identity". I want it redefined, but at the same time I can't see what it would become so I'm scared of the change.
So, one of the traits I know I need is a man who is a strong leader. Someone who can say, "no, I am going to do this, and you just need to let me." And then stick to his guns, as it were, when I protest. It's a tall order, I know, but I firmly believe that God intends the man to be the leader, so there must be men out there who are strong like that.
To so many of the guys who are posting here... I'm both encouraged and slightly saddened by what you write. Encouraged because it's clear that you do want to pursue someone and are really putting the time and energy into figuring out how to go about that. It's good to see some evidence that guys like you are out there. Saddened because I don't see those attitudes in the men where I live.
Since this is so late in the string, it may get entirely lost and overlooked, but I'd vote for that forum too.

[92. BDB said the following at 1:45 AM on Mar 25:]

92

OK, I admit that I've never actually seen a 32-oz Porterhouse on the menu, but I assumed that when combined with lobster it would be the most expensive item on the menu. 18-oz is extremely impressive and would still make a great date story.

Of course, at a French restaurant, the most expensive item on the menu would be tiny and designed to look pretty, but I'm now waaaay off topic...

[93. James said the following at 2:26 AM on Mar 25:]

93

Right on Samuel! That is the very thing I have been battling in my heart, and as I've been giving it over to God more and began putting away any feelings of accusation towards the opposite sex, there has been a noticeable increase in the peace in my life.

Now to some more practical tips:

Ladies, what to do if you want to FRIGHTEN OFF a godly man:
-mention within his hearing that you cannot see yourself married anytime soon, because there's so much else you'd like to do first (yes, I've heard this)
-say the same thing, but with regards to children. Conversely, one of the biggest encouragements that I heard from a godly Christian sister before she left for a year-long mission trip overseas was that she really wanted to be a mom. That she said it that simply, without the usual qualifiers I hear of, "but not anytime soon" or "but I want to do some other things first", etc. Because what a godly man would like to hear from a godly woman is that she would like to be a mother, and is willing to let it be when God wills it, and not try and force her own timetable on the issue.

As a Christian man, what really attracts me is when I encounter a young Christian woman who is willing to lay aside her personal plans for those God has in store for her (including marriage and children).

So, a good tip is to be pursuing the Lord and His will for your life with all your heart. Not in order to attract a man, but rather put that idea away and just submit to God because He is God. Keep an eye out, but let God be the center and your focus. Because sure as shootin', that Godly man is looking for a Christian woman who says (and MEANS), "Lord, not my will, but Yours be done."

J, that's cool. By Southwest, I thought you'd meant Arizona/Nevada/New Mexico (Arizona right here). I don't count Cali as being part of the Southwest. Cali is "The Left Coast" =p.

[94. Darin said the following at 9:31 AM on Mar 25:]

94

Betty, I think that as far as just "waiting on God" you have a very good point...especially where women are concerned. For us guys though, it's like asking God for a job and then laying on the couch and waiting for a knock at the door. I believe that we are co-laborers with Christ in that he presents us with opportunities...but we still have to search for those opportunities and act on them.

Caleb, that's good advice! I've found through that experience with God my own need for unconditional love decreases (because I've found the source)...and my need to share that love increases. (In other words, I don't need a relationship nearly as much for what I can "receive" as I need a relationship for what I can "give".)

As far as becoming "irresistible" to the opposite sex"...I don't think that I've quite attained that level yet. Ha! Ha!

One thing to remember here, God designed us for one thing: to give and receive love. And He gave us just two commandments to sum up all the rest: love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.

Therefore, feeling God's unconditional love is a tremendous (and critical) step toward our ultimate fulfillment. So is the aspect of giving and receiving love from other people.

For me (and many other readers here too I'm sure) the greatest frustration of being single is an unfulfilled desire to bring another human being into our own "Holy of Holies" and express that same unconditional love in similar manner to how God expresses it to us.

Well, I'd like to pontificate some more but I've got to finish getting ready for church. God bless!

[95. Mike Theemling said the following at 11:16 AM on Mar 25:]

95

After reading through all the comments again (I agree after the increased reader interest since The Line started and the sheer number of postings just in this thread, a forum should be seriously considered), I am reminded of a quote said by a very successful salesman:

"There are 2 reasons that a man (or woman) gives for his actions: One that sounds good and the REAL reason"

For example, Rich's story of the women who lamented "I'd go out with ANY Christian guy" only to get turned down in the same breath shows that isn't the REAL reason these ladies aren't going out on dates. The REAL reason was their idea of a qualified man was higher than most men in their peer group could attain.

J commented that "Although I'm no supermodel, I'm fairly attractive. And I couldn't get a date to save my life." If this were really the case, I have trouble believing that no guys in your group would be asking you out or showing obvious interest. As noted, physical appearance gives you the biggest advantage by far for garnering interest.

I suspect that part of the REAL reason is that again they do not meet your standards.

"There are about a dozen single guys in this group, but frankly, I just don't feel at ease with most of them. They don't seem to have any social awareness at all, and it's sad if they think behaving this way will attract a wife."

I'm not saying that the guy who screams at everyone or those that continually harasses you are those you should consider dating, but I'm curious: What about the other guys? Why aren't they qualified? What exactly makes them lack 'social awareness' to the extent that you wouldn't go out with ANY of them? I find it hard to believe that out of a dozen or so guys in your peer group ALL of them would be that bad.

And finally there was the post by Laura regarding finding a guy who was "financially unstable". Although I see her point, when the rubber hits the road I think that you and most people would hesitate to marry a guy whom you knew was a compulsive spender (that's how I interpret the word "unstable"). To the contrary, according to polls among single women (Christian and non-Christian) financial security is a big concern.

Xeres had a comment worth repeating. There seems to be this notion that marriage/finding someone is some mysterious process in which "it just happens". You put your trust in God and somehow *poof* you end up with a great mate.

It kind of reminds me what I learned in art class: The myth is that you either have the gift of art or your don't. Fact is that in art (I'll take drawing as an example) there are definite, defineable skills which ANYONE can learn (lines, shading, perspective, etc.) Sure, there is a part of art which is inspired and mystical, but for the most part it's just practicing a skill like carpentry or fishing.

This "let God do it for you and don't worry about it" attitude is reinforced by the soulmate idea. Yet I don't see this translated into other areas. If someone were to say, "I don't have a job. So rather than get my resume out, make connections, etc I'm just going to sit back and let God 'find a job for me'; one which His 'perfect' will" Most people would rightfully say that's a misrepresentation of how God works. But yet we use it as an aliby for relationships all the time.

DanL is a bit harsh, and I agree not properly representing the Boundless staff. However he does have a good point. Once again, it's the article/post which uses GIRLS as the victims and GUYS and the villans. I can't recall specifically a case where a posting/article started out like:

"Here's single guy X. He's well employed, a dedicated Christian, has no obvious red flags. He'd make a great husband and father and greatly desires to find a godly wife and mother. Yet despite his being involved with his single group and initiating with other women, he always seems to be overlooked and gets turned down constantly..."

There's this misconception that these types of men don't exist, or at least don't exist in church. Yet I know for a fact that that is a falsehood.

The DTR video entitled "The Circus Ring" chose to have the GUY be the gunshy one ("Danger Will Robinson, Danger") despite the fact that they shot two versions of the video with one having the girl not wanting to commit.

More later but I'm already late to something. Some things to chew on.

[96. Samuel PG said the following at 11:30 AM on Mar 25:]

96

J,
I can assure you that there are plenty of men out there who love God. There are clearly many just from reading this blog, but I also have many godly friends. I realize that doesn't help you, per se, but if they exist here in both Northern and Southern California they exist everywhere.

[97. Luke said the following at 12:53 PM on Mar 25:]

97

I am 26 and I have been accused of being too picky when I date different girls. However, I am now in a relationship with a wonderful and godly woman. I met her on the internet through a great website. She lives 10 hours away from where I live. We would have never have met by any other means. I am convinced that if I had not started online dating I would still be without a girlfriend and I would still be going out on dates with nice Christian girls who after one or two dates I would know that they weren't for me. I know many people are opposed to online dating and I understand that there are many problems with it. However, it greatly increased the amount of eligible women that I came into contact with and I believe that it is a way that God brings people together.

[98. Jake said the following at 1:20 PM on Mar 25:]

98

Here's something else I've been wanting to say for a while. Some of the comments have been critical, though not in an overly harsh way, of the men who say that we HAVE pursued women but have been turned down. "Stop complaining and just keep pursuing," they say. This response would be valid if we were here primarily to complain, but as one of those men, I don't feel that's what we're doing. Our refrain that we do pursue but have not met with success so far isn't offered here as a complaint, so much as a "rebuttal" to the assertion that we aren't pursuing.

It gets a bit frustrating to see pundits like Debbie Maken and the Boundless editors continually berating men for not pursuing when many of us are, so we feel compelled to offer ourselves as counterexamples. To me, however, that's only half of the equation--the flip side of the stereotype is even more frustrating: being told that there are scores of Christian women in every church yearning for marriage, eager to quit their jobs and raise children, and just longing for ANY Christian man to ask them out. It's kind of an extra slap in the face to us men who want to get married and have tried to some degree or another, to be told that there are plenty of good opportunities out there and that we're turning them down. The reason it's extra frustrating is that many of us WISH that were true, and feel that if it were, we'd probably be married by now! Again, the availability of single Christian women may vary by factors like geographical region and denomination, but from the vantage point of some of us, it's a bit like telling a starving man in the middle of a desert "what are you doing just standing there, while the fields are ripe for the harvest? Start picking and eating!"

So, our complaints aren't necessarily a plea for sympathy nor even a request for advice (though advice is welcome), they're more an attempt at refuting what we feel is an unfair portrait of the situation.

[99. Darin said the following at 1:30 PM on Mar 25:]

99

Samuel, that's an excellent point about the need to let go of resentment toward the opposite sex. As a guy, I've met a lot of women who I simply would not pursue because it seemed that they were carrying a chip on their shoulder...and I'm sure that the ladies could say the same thing about men.

I do have doubts, however, that the resentment is as bad as it sounds. Often times when a discussion starts off with one side getting blamed for everything, people get on the defensive and what sounds like resentment is really just people trying to make a point that there's plenty of blame to go around.

Nevertheless, good point...because undoubtedly there ARE people here with resentment.

[100. Gina said the following at 1:48 PM on Mar 25:]

100

BDB makes an excellent point about intellectual matches. This has been a tough one for me. I feel like I'm being a bit of a snob if I date only men who share my intellectual interests and are into books and ideas and so forth. On the other hand, when I don't -- well, I've gone on several dates with really nice guys with whom I had absolutely nothing to talk about. (And before I get blasted for that, I tried hard to find things to talk about. Asked questions and encouraged conversation about their work, their hobbies, their families, everything I could think of.) So if I try to keep the relationship going, I feel like I'm leading him on, and if I don't, I feel like I'm being mean and horrible to a perfectly nice guy.

Then again, I met an intellectual guy recently and (I thought) we were having some really interesting and thoughtful and fun conversations, and suddenly HE cut it off for no reason that I can figure out.

So, back to the old drawing board . . .

[1. Dustin said the following at 11:57 AM on Mar 23:]

1

Hey Steve, can I have their numbers? :-P

It's hard and frustrating, I'm a guy and I try to be outright with my feelings (i.e. actively pursue Christian women I'm interested in), I've been shot down more times than I care to think about but I know the Lord loves me and that's all that really matters. And I know he has a plan for my life. So if that means getting shot down some more, or for your friends putting up with some dudes who don't quite have the spine yet to be in a serious relationship, hen so be it. I think the end goal is worthy of the hard work.

[2. jcs said the following at 11:59 AM on Mar 23:]

2

Steve, I think you're "preaching to the choir" here. Judging from the men's tales of woe that appear in your comboxes on a daily basis, the men who read "The Line" are pursuing women like this, and getting shot down every time. Your statement probably would have had more impact if it was posted as a regular article.

(jcs cringes as he contemplates how men are going to fill this thread with the same tales of romantic woe that have been endlessly discussed in previous threads...)

[3. Jordan Peacock said the following at 12:08 PM on Mar 23:]

3

You don't hear about many of these guys because they aren't constantly hanging around the dating scene. I've only sort-of dated once, and got married to her. The same applies to many of my friends who, while dating longer, aren't dating more, and have the same end in mind.

[4. Jonathan from Canada said the following at 12:24 PM on Mar 23:]

4

I would think like that if I knew girls like that...

[5. Darin said the following at 12:55 PM on Mar 23:]

5

I think that part of the problem good single Christian women and good single Christian guys have...IS FINDING EACH OTHER. There are a lot of us out there, but it's a big world and we're spread out all over it.

What adds to the difficulties of finding each other is the fact that it takes valuable time to find out who has the inner qualities needed and who doesn't. Some churches have singles Bible study groups which makes it easier to meet other singles and evaluate their potential...but from what I've seen these groups are few and far between.

Another obstacle is the fact that many of the quality Christian singles that you meet have standards so high that I don't think Christ himself would be able please them (Eww...he's got facial hair!)

And then there's the problem that was mentioned: Guy's who think that they have forever to evaluate their options. BUT...it's not just the guys who have the problem here. There are just as many girls stringing guys along as the other way around.

Another problem is that single people these days pack their schedules so full that they simply don't have time for relationships. Chances are if a guy has to get an appointment a month ahead of time to initiate a relationship...it's not going to happen. (In today's society women are faced with an increasing pressure to be "successful" in a career PLUS serving in the church PLUS trying to learn the skills of a housewife...)

Likewise, many guys fall into the same category of being to busy. In a man's defense, many guys are simply trying to prepare financially for marriage. And that often requires a college degree. (These days a college degree is comparable to what a high school diploma was fifty years ago.)

Finally a guy finishes college and get's a job. But that's not good enough. Before he can think of marriage, he has to buy a home...a palace for his bride.

Has anyone noticed the trend in real estate prices in the last thirty years? What it used to take a man four years wages to buy...a guy might spend forty years paying off in today's market.

A young man's father might advise him, "Just don't expect so much when your starting out." But try telling that to a young lady's father. Try telling it to a young lady who grew up with dreams of being carried off to a palace by Prince Charming. Try telling it to her mother who is trying to live her own life through the life of her daughter. That's reality.

Were it not for God's supernatural intervention I don't know if ANY good Christian single people would find a partner these days. Thank goodness for God's mercy!

And thank you to all the people at boundless for tackling this complex issue. There is hope...and with God's help we will succeed.

[6. Chris B. said the following at 1:01 PM on Mar 23:]

6

Speaking as someone who saw a girl not too long ago and said to himself, "I better marry her before someone else does," and then moved from there to successfully pursue that beautiful, godly young woman, I can see a lot of missing intentionality and courage to initiate relationships in many of the young men that I know.

The truth is that most of the guys with a lot of motivation to pursue godly young women are already taken, because they pursued the woman to whom God led them without hesitation--but hopefully not without counsel.

From my own experience, a lot of guys miss out on wonderful opportunities in college, for the simple reason that they don't yet feel ready to enter into serious relationships during their college years. This attitude is damaging, because college is one of the best times in a young man or woman's life to interact with lots of people of similar age, goals, background, and--if they're lucky--shared faith in Christ.

I encourage all Christian young men to seek "the wife of your youth," and get motivated to prepare themselves to meet their future wife (Proverbs 5:18).

[7. Gina Dalfonzo said the following at 1:13 PM on Mar 23:]

7

I'm really looking forward to getting the guys' take on this and maybe, FINALLY, understanding what the phenomenon is all about. If I could even just get an explanation for the classic one-date-and-never-call-again pattern, I could die a happy woman.

[8. Mac said the following at 1:13 PM on Mar 23:]

8

I know that I'm not thinking that I have all the time in the world. I've just not met anyone with reciprocal interest in me. I believe that part of the issue is once schooling is over, our forced social interaction is also over. The workplace, with its cubicles, emails, and voicemails is not designed for socializing because real interaction with real people reduces productivity. With today's society leaning towards more individualism, it requires a more dedicated person to break out of the limited interpersonal communication that existence provides. On the other hand, geography still is the largest barrier to overcome. Despite the power of the internet, relationships are impossible without face to face social interaction.

[9. andrew said the following at 1:20 PM on Mar 23:]

9

I've recently starting dating a wonderful girl and I keep thinking "I better marry her before someone else does". I need to be careful not to get ahead of myself though. It's only been ~3 months for us.
- Andrew

[10. Mike Theemling said the following at 1:38 PM on Mar 23:]

10

Were these girls at the Boundless mixer that I attended? Were they one of the 9 whom I e-mailed (initiated) with afterwards who either ignored me or turned me down for a date (or one of the two whom I asked before the event and turned me down)? If so, I'd like to know why they turned ME down.

If even I didn't ask them directly, I never got any e-mails from them hinting at meeting together.

jcs is right. Before blanketing the blame at the guys I'd ask them if they'd acted warm to only guys they are interested in and cool around the others, how many online dating requests they've turned down, etc.

Maybe they truly are victims of bad circumstance. But I suspect that all of us, guys and girls, play a role in our lack of success. Myself included.

[11. Christina said the following at 1:49 PM on Mar 23:]

11

I think geography is key. I work at a conference center in Upstate New York, in a town with a population of 500. Granted, the population triples during the summer, but I often think, "How am I ever going to find a husband living here?"

On the other hand, tons of reputable young gentlemen find their way here during the summer months and I find myself thinking, "are they thick? There are tons of reputable young women staring right at them."

Thanks for asking a great question Steve. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one confused.

[12. BDB said the following at 2:08 PM on Mar 23:]

12

One thing I've noticed is that if you make enough money to support a family, you don't have time to see them. To own a basic 3-bedroom home on one income in Southern California requires a job working 50-60 hours/week. That's either a management job with a lot of stress or something like law enforcement with a lot of overtime.

A big driver of divorce is when people are working too much and their spouse feels neglected. Teachers seem to have the lowest divorce rate, but they also get 3 months off each year. That time can be invested in something besides work.

I know a number of women who complain bitterly that their husbands work too much. I also know a number of single women who evaluate men by the size of their paycheck, their car, their house, etc. It's a vicious circle.

But it can also be measured. When my grandparents got married, they took a 4-day weekend. Cost in today's dollars: $300. Today, I know many people who expect their honeymoon to be a cruise - cost in today's dollars $3000. So in two generations, expectations have increased by an order of magnitude.

I tried to explain this concept to someone, and she didn't get it. But a few months later she did manage to book an Alaska cruise with her boyfriend.

I really think that both men and women are way too materialistic, and the SUV's in the church parking lot show that it's not just a secular problem. If you want the stuff, you'll never have time. If you never have time, you'll never meet anyone. And even if you do, your marriage will be endangered if you still put aquiring stuff at the top of your list.

[13. Zeph Greenwell said the following at 2:08 PM on Mar 23:]

13

Guys who want to marry do marry. However these women could do themselves a favor by not allowing these pseudo-relationships to begin. If he doesn't know what he wants, or he does and its just not marriage they should dump him. Guys who can't be leaders in dating relationships will not be good leaders in marriage. Women need to stop wasting there time with them and focus on the guys who would marry a nice girl if they found one.

[14. Esther said the following at 2:13 PM on Mar 23:]

14

Does this mean it's time for boundless to start matching people up? I read comments from guys here that make me think, "wow, I'd like to get to know them better", but who knows, they probably live on the other side of the country.

[15. Sina said the following at 2:15 PM on Mar 23:]

15

I had a lot of guys hang out with me and then later tell me they only saw me as a friend after I attempted to "Pull a Ruth"...so in an attempt to figure out where I went wrong, I decided to be very gaurded when it comes to close relationships with guys.

I think with all the singles groups it makes it very comfortable for guys and girls to not realize the need for a mate. Afterall they have all the companionship they need right there!

I did have a few instances where I 'think' guys were trying to pursue but it was a whole lot of hinting and having their friends ask me stuff...that's a complete turn off if the guy can't come to me on his own. So since they never came to me directly, I didn't ask for further explanation from the ones trying to hook them up with me.

Although trying to analyze the whole situation makes me dizzy too! Perhaps no one has pursued me because God is protecting me from the 'wrong' ones.

[16. ethan said the following at 2:23 PM on Mar 23:]

16

great article, I have found the same to be true in talking with guys (especially more conservative ones) They seem to be so focused on getting themselves perfect before "dating" that they miss the whole point that it's the process of interaction that improves you.

Stop thinking about it and just do it. (thanks nike)

(I took my own advice btw and am now happily married) :-)

[17. Ed said the following at 2:58 PM on Mar 23:]

17

Not to be rude or anything. . .but I wonder how this relates to Candice's story of your actions early in your relationship with her? It sounds like your pursuit of Candice was brought on with her "Pulling a Ruth" and taking the initiative. . .maybe certain guys need some affirmation and intiative from a woman before they jump in?

[18. Mark said the following at 3:02 PM on Mar 23:]

18

I second Esther's comment.

How 'bout a little forum for the guys and girls to chit-chat in. The audience here at The Line definitely seems to have their hearts in the right place. All the talk about intentionality and taking initiative is nice, but if you live in some place like, say, northern New England, where there's few mature singles and fewer Christian singles, all that talk doesn't amount to much if you can't put it into practice with anyone.

By the way, can I have the number of the girl that Dustin doesn't go out with?

[19. Ashley said the following at 3:04 PM on Mar 23:]

19

Darin: "Try telling it to a young lady who grew up with dreams of being carried off to a palace by Prince Charming... That's reality."

A palace? Who wants a palace? Why do men think that women have these lofty expectations of physical things? Do I want my husbands character to reflect responsibility and support for the welfare of our family? Yes, please! But that is by no means asking for a palace! Just a feasible means of support. Does that mean you're going to have a more difficult time finding a wife with a degree in Non-western Comparative History with a minor in Ceramics? Yes! Because you'll have a harder time supporting a family, not because you can't afford a palace.

Mike: "I'd like to know why they turned ME down."

Why do they owe you a reason that they turned you down? Is that a reason to stop trying? The odds are still good that someone, will, eventually say yes. (by the by, know that you're in the minority, most men I know are far too busy reconstructing cars and playing guitar to pursue women)

Zeph: "However these women could do themselves a favor by not allowing these pseudo-relationships to begin. If he doesn't know what he wants, or he does and its just not marriage they should dump him."

How do we know that he doesn't know what he wants unless he communicates that to us? Contrary to popular opinion women's intuition does not extend to thought-reading.

Ethan: Amen. Couldn't agree more.

[20. Gina said the following at 3:25 PM on Mar 23:]

20

Well, I wish that some guy would tell me what I'm doing wrong. I DO go out with guys who ask me out unless I have a good reason not to (i.e., he's not a Christian, or we're so completely different I can't see it ever working out, or there's something alarming about his behavior). In other words, I say "yes, let's go out" most of the time. Nine times out of ten the guy then loses interest. So, am I utterly dull, or is it something else? If someone would just tell me, then I could try to do something about it!

[21. Becky F. said the following at 3:28 PM on Mar 23:]

21

Andrew, if you both feel the same way, and you see that you are a good match, I don't think you're getting ahead of yourself in thinking about marriage at 3 months of dating.

My husband and I met, started "dating" two weeks later, got engaged 3 months after that, and got married 5 months after that. It happens!

[22. Mandi said the following at 4:08 PM on Mar 23:]

22

Gentlemen, motivation is a mark of manliness for many women.

But, there is a fine line that crosses over to desperation -- maddening, I guess, but I think it's there. Maybe some girls mistaken motivation for desperation because there are just so many guys out there that enter into pseudo-relationships, that when they meet someone who wants more, they think he's desperate. I know I met so many more unmotivated men than I could have imagined, so that by the time I met someone worthwhile who *was* motivated, it took me a while to realize there was nothing wrong with him. Seriously. Sometimes, I'm still in shock.

That said, wow, reading some of these responses by the guys, it's very touching and convicting. The unmotivated guys out there can easily lead a girl to the conclusion that men don't want or need to be loved, since they're more interested in career, sports, hardware stores, or whatever it is that's keeping them from having love and commitment.

I guess the thing about girls not being warm to guys they're not interested in is that...well, don't you guys do it too, when you sense a girl you "don't think of that way" is interested in you?

I think it's comforting to remember that it's only your role as a guy to find the wife God is leading you too. Something I read in the (great) book "Choosing God's Best" put it very well: remember that God chose Adam's wife, and all Adam was doing before that was sleeping! Now I realize that might seem like the exact *opposite* thing to say in a post encouraging men to be motivated and actively pursue women. But isn't it nice to know that if you let Him, God will be your perfect match-maker and is more than capable of leading you to a wonderful girl who will respond to you the way you deserve (or more) when God thinks you're ready? But you have to let Him. So, back to motivation!

[23. Darin said the following at 4:11 PM on Mar 23:]

23

Chris, the question is, "WHY do so many guys not feel like they are yet ready for marriage in their college years?"

Answer: Many guy's are ADVISED that until they are "financially secure" they have no business thinking about marriage. (A financially secure college student??? If they have rich parents maybe.)

And here's another question: "Is success guaranteed for guys who DO feel ready to persue marriage in college?"

Answer #1: Many young women are advised not to consider a man who is not "financially secure". (There have been a lot of guys shot down repeatedly in college because of their lack of income.)

Answer #2: Women in secular colleges are not there to learn how to be a wife and mother. (Nor are they there simply to find a husband as was the case in years gone by.) They are more concerned about their career goals.

Answer #3: Not every secular college is overflowing with good single Christian ladies. A man might be doing his best to find one and still come up empty.

To the guys who made it through the obstacle course...CONGRATULATIONS!!! There are a lot of other guys who tried everything that you did and weren't as fortunate.

Now, consider the statement below:

"The truth is that most of the guys with a lot of motivation to pursue godly young women are already taken, because they pursued the woman to whom God led them without hesitation--but hopefully not without counsel."

How do you suppose that statement makes a guy feel who has been intentional and courageous in initiating relationships but has been shot down repeatedly by Christian women who were looking for "financial security" or were more interested in their career? Or what about the guys whose college relationships broke up after graduation because the woman's career was leading her in a different direction?

Sure, there are a lot of guys who are cowardly and apathetic about marriage...but that's NOT most of the guys here. Most of the guys participating in this discussion are on here because we ARE motivated...and we ARE intentional.

Give thanks to God for your good fortune, brother. And pray for the rest of us to receive our turn. God bless and I wish you the best in your relationship.

[24. Simon said the following at 4:19 PM on Mar 23:]

24

I think it is largely a myth that it is the guys who want to keep their options open and avoid committing to a woman.

In articles, it is always the Christian guys who are criticized. What about the Christian girls?

I've "been out" with 5 Christian women and in all the situations, they have rejected me and not reciprocated my feelings.

I don't know what to do - I seek to be a Godly guy who loves God and seeks to follow Christ, but I don't seem to be attractive to any girls.

[25. Mandi said the following at 4:20 PM on Mar 23:]

25

Becky F.,

Thanks for sharing that. It was very encouraging. God bless your heart, I needed that. It's hard to feel you're doing the right thing when so many people around you comment on how "fast" a relationship has developed because it hasn't taken YEARS to do so. That kind of thing can unnecessarily create doubt in your mind.

[26. James said the following at 4:39 PM on Mar 23:]

26

Steve said: "I remember a conversation I had with a guy named Jim who met his wife in the 80s. He described seeing a girl named Mary and thinking, "I better marry her before someone else does."

Are there any guys thinking like that these days?"

Yes, but in my circle of friends, it has happened several times (in my experience), where two equally mature Christian guys will be thinking that about the same mature Christian girl. And what's even more ironic, is that the two times it has already happened to me, the other guy is my good friend, and usually a current or former roommate.

The blessing to those situations is that instead of being tempted to wallow in self-pity, I can begin to rejoice for my brother since I cannot begrudge him; and also rejoice for my sister since she has been blessed to be pursued by a man I know for a fact to be a God-honoring, Christ centered man.

In the first instance that this happened, those two are getting married this summer, and I'm one of the groomsmen.

I'm still waiting on God to bring me that girl who I'll end up marrying before some other guy...and in the meantime, continue to let Him grow me spiritually.

[27. Gina said the following at 4:54 PM on Mar 23:]

27

Guys, here's one thing to keep in mind: "Career" is not a dirty word when it relates to women.

Of course a lot of us are interested in our careers. They're a big part of our lives. And that is not a bad thing. It's not even unbiblical. (Go back and read about that Proverbs 31 woman and her activities again.) And it does not necessarily mean that we're not willing and able to be stay-at-home moms when the time comes. But in the meantime, we kind of have to support ourselves, you know? And there's nothing wrong with that and there's not even anything wrong with a woman enjoying that career. If you're looking for a woman who's bored and frustrated and resentful with the work God's given her to do at this point in her life -- well, that creates a whole new set of problems.

If you're pursuing a woman who's too wrapped up in her career to be interested in going out with a guy, then okay, you have a point. But I don't think that's true in the majority of situations.

[28. Hunter W said the following at 4:56 PM on Mar 23:]

28

One possibility that hasn't been discussed is that these girls have "Prince Charming Syndrome". It is similar to "Supermodel Syndrome" that many guys suffer from.

It has been my experience (personal and in others) that many women expect a guy to say and do what she considers to be the "right thing" 99% of the time. (The extra 1% is to allow for our 'sin natures'.) These women look for value in the sizzle and not in the steak.

I’m sure if these girls look around at the men in their respective circles, they’d find at least two or three quality men that have the same outlook on the future as they do and who would pursue them in a Godly way if he was only given the chance.

[29. Darin said the following at 5:16 PM on Mar 23:]

29

BDB, excellent commentary on materialism!

Ashley, it sounds like you're well balanced in terms of your financial expectations for your future husband. Many women are not. And if they are, quite often their parents have unrealistic expectations for their daughter's mate.

When I use the expression of a girl expecting a palace, I am referring to the tendency of a lot of women to hold onto their childhood expectations for what marriage will be like. That tendency has been documented by people with a far broader perspective than I have.

Noone is saying that ALL women are like that. I just listed it as one of the many possible obstacles that men face.

[30. Blair said the following at 5:35 PM on Mar 23:]

30

Just a word of encouragment to the guys out there. Many women do not care if a man has a lot of money. I am not so much worried about how much a man makes but how he spends what he makes. I actually am turned off by a lot of guys with nice cars because I think about how much the payments must be. Most of my friends and I want men of God who are striving to live a godly life and as far as looks go my only big turn off is a man with poor hygiene. Anyways my point in writing this is to let the guys out there who are pursuing marriage that your search is not in vain. Use discernment, wise counsel, and lots of prayer when pursuing your future spouse and I believe God will bless your efforts. As a single women who wants to be a wife I am been encouraged to see that there are men of God who want to get married, may the Lord guide and bless your search.

[31. BDB said the following at 5:50 PM on Mar 23:]

31

I don't know if this is the least bit helpful, but as I've read these articles over the last few months, it occurs to me that one problem is when people are in the same geographic proximity and meet each other, but have different expectations for how things should proceed. There are so many different sets of rules that two people following different rules will completely miss the signs of interest in each other.

For example, a man trying to follow Elisabeth Elliot's advice to observe the character of women around him and look for a godly one may discover that they are all volunteering in the nusery -- where men aren't allowed to volunteer for insurance reasons. This is more of a tactical delay than a strategic problem, though. I've read 11 of EE's books now and I've decided she's right. I would encourage everyone to examine their routine and see if they are organizing their time in such a way that they never come into contact with single people their age. Women who are never volunteering around single men will never be noticed by a man trying to follow EE's rules. But if they also go to a bar on Saturday night, they will probably be noticed by men following singles-bar rules.

As for pure motivation, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned all the children of divorce out there. At the undergraduate university I attended, they actually put in the parent's orientation packet explicit instructions for parents to not tell their child they are getting a divorce on the day they drop their child off for college. It happened often enough they had to make it a rule. A lot of people go to college looking for an escape from an unhappy home life. Yes, some are trying to get the Mrs. degree to escape, and I know a few who did that. But today I think a lot more people decide that they're going to need to be more responsible than the parents they saw growing up, so they focus on their career and fixing themselves in the mean time -- putting marriage off until some distant point in the future. It takes a good 10 years to get established in a career. People taking that route won't even be thinking about marriage until long after college. And then they will indeed realize that it was easier to meet people in college.

[32. Sara said the following at 5:58 PM on Mar 23:]

32

What Darin said about the girls' dads having these sky high expectations is so true. Also, I've seen as well what he mentioned about the moms -- I have friends just like that. Of course there are different situations, but it is a definite issue, especially with folks who've grown up in Christian, "courtship-trained" homes. We need to get back to the basics and remember what is truly important in godly relationships that will lead to marriage. Makes me think of that article one of the ladies wrote, titled "Faith for the Man He will become."

[33. Jake said the following at 6:07 PM on Mar 23:]

33

It's tempting to echo the other guys and say that often women turn us down or are less than enthusiastic about the relationship when we do date. However, the specific scenario described by Steve is one in which two women allegedly do want to get married, and want more from relationships than any of their suitors have been willing to give. So I will speculate on why that might be.

I can only speak for myself, but there is one way that I could see myself doing what has supposedly been done to these women. Ever since I started liking girls in early puberty, I've been afflicted by crushes: at any given time, there has been one girl, and only one, whom I "like," to the exclusion of all others. Over the past few years, I managed to date, twice, and be broken up with, twice, the girl I had a crush on, and it's been over a year since our breakup. However, the feelings just have not gone away. Now, I know that anyone offering me advice on this subject would say that that's immature, even unhealthy, of me, and that I should just get over it, broaden my horizons, ask out some other Christian women and see what happens. The rational side of me thinks "they're right; Jane always expressed doubts and reservations while we were dating, and broke up with me twice. She's moved on, is possibly dating other guys but is also the type who's able to be perfectly content being single, and leads a very full life without me. I really am never going to be with her. If I ever want to get married, be able to have sex, have children, have someone to grow old with, I need to look elsewhere." But the emotional side of me simply cannot make my feelings disappear, or reassign them to another girl.

So, here's what I could see happening: somebody I know at church comes up to me and says "hey, my niece just moved to the area and started attending here; I think you two would be good together; I'll introduce you." Said niece starts coming to adult Sunday school, and we talk briefly every week for a few weeks. I think "well, she's not Jane, but she is kind of pretty, and very nice. I wonder if there could be something there if I gave it a chance?" So, in one of my rational moments, I say "hey, I'm not doing anything else, so why not?" and I ask her out. We go on a date or two, but then it hits me. My emotional side surfaces and starts to think "I just can't do this. I want to be with Jane. The feeling for this other girl just isn't there. I can't pursue her knowing I might spend the rest of my life looking over my shoulder and thinking about what might have been; it's not pleasant for me nor fair to her." Not wanting to lead her on, I call it off before it goes anywhere. Or, maybe, since even though she's not Jane spending time with her is better than spending yet another Friday night home alone with a movie, I don't call it off even though I know it will never ultimately go further, so I do wind up leading her on.

Now, this has not actually happened to me. And again, I can only speak for myself. But this is something that I can imagine accounting for the behavior of the men Steve described.

Incidentally, I'd like to know how common the "crush" predilection is for us men. I've emphasized only speaking for myself, but I often wonder whether it's something other guys experience or find to be a hurdle for them. Maybe there could be another post polling us on the matter?

[34. Sina said the following at 6:29 PM on Mar 23:]

34

I think we have a lot of girls here who haven't been pursued and guys who are pursuing as they should yet meet denial. Perhaps we need the others to chime in...those who are not asking girls out and girls who are turning guys down.

I have accepted date invitations in the past but then the guys turn around and tell me they see me as a friend.

We should all have a big party online and meet one another since we all seem to be in the same boat (those of us who are not married or dating that is).

[35. rich said the following at 7:01 PM on Mar 23:]

35

I can echo many of the guys' thoughts here. I know that many, many women get frustrated with the loony behavior of many men, but really, I think its a two way street. In my church, the number one criticism I hear from the women (and the pastors) is that men don't initiate, etc, etc. But I'm a guy who has no problem doing that, and most of my guy friends have no problems doing that either. Most of us have the same phenomenon going on that many men here have noted: the women a) shoot them down, and/or b) they think a guy that is being intentional about marriage is desperate and weird (and trust me, we're not being desperate.). I once heard two girls I was interested in say within earshot, "heck, I'd just be happy if ANY Christian guy asks me out! I'll go out with him!" So I asked them out (not at the same time...a few months apart). They both turned me down, saying they weren't ready for a relationship...which is ok, but it all just looked shady, given the aforementioned confession. Yes yes, I know that the women have the "right" to turn guys down, and they don't owe us an explanation nor do they even owe us a chance (though it would be nice), but is a balanced assessment of the situation too much to ask (i.e., acknowledge that its not all the guys fault)?

I'm not trying to put the onus back on the women...I'm merely pointing out that both genders are missing something, and its untruthful and discouraging to criticize one gender heavily. I read article after article where the men's butts are kicked for being passive and stuff, and pastor after pastor says the same thing. Some of that can be exhortational, and some of it is called for, but after a while it has the opposite affect intended...not to mention that its inaccurate.

[36. Jacob said the following at 7:03 PM on Mar 23:]

36

I have to echo those who have brought up the financial factor. While many men may not initially think too much of it, Darin is right: we are advised not to get married until we're "financially stable." Things get worse when you factor in college loans (and for many, car payments), which will not leave much for the savings account, especially for new graduates. On the whole, however, I would say that the true men out there have the motives, but too many of the women are expecting the 25 year single John MacArthur to woo them.

[37. Christina said the following at 7:29 PM on Mar 23:]

37

Steve, I'm sure the suggestion got lost in most of the opinions (some of which, are mine) but I think the idea of a forum is great.

We singles obviously have a lot to discuss and spur each other on in (in love, of course).

We could have topics to discuss, where both men and women could help figure out the Christian Dating crisis we all seem to find ourselves in.

I don't know if it would help, or if it would frustrate us more, but I thinks it's something worth looking into.

[38. James said the following at 7:41 PM on Mar 23:]

38

Jake, as for myself, I AM a bit vulnerable to infatuations. However, here's the trick to it (and it's not really a trick, but good biblical advice):

Give it to God.

Seriously! The past several times I've developed infatuations with girls I'm friends with (and they are Christians), and recognized them as infatuations, I begin praying for God to do what He will in the situation. I let Him take over, and put those feelings away, trying instead to serve that girl in purity first. This includes thoughts, surrendering feelings, and my words and actions. All go to God, and I treat her as I would any of my other sisters in Christ.

I figure that if God intends for our relationship to mature, that He will do it, and it will grow from friendship our developing friendship. However, that current infatuation is still an infatuation (as the saying goes, "Right girl, wrong time is still wrong girl"). And by giving that up, I'm freed to see the girl for who she really is and let her character speak for her, not my imagination or emotions.

The best solution for heartache here, is surrender to God.

[39. Gina2 said the following at 7:56 PM on Mar 23:]

39

Sigh....I find myself also thinking like most of the other posters here. I'm often telling my friends," where are all the good single men? - they're probably sitting around saying "where are all the good women?""
And depending what culture you're from, a lot of factors and family are involved in the process of finding a good mate. A delay in marriage weighs not just on my mind, but also on my family and extended family. But it's not just about finding a "good" mate, is it? For me, I'm looking for someone whose desires are aligned with mine so that we can serve God together. I don't need/want 10 or 5 or even 2 suitors....I just want the one that God intended for me. And I have every hope that as He is preparing my heart for what lies ahead, He is preparing him for the same pupose.
I just wish this didn't have to take so long.

[40. mr. x said the following at 8:10 PM on Mar 23:]

40

Jake,

I, too, have had the "crush" issue in the past. At the time, it seemed impossible that I would be interested in another woman ever again.

The solution? Go for a year without seeing or communicating with her (except for the occasional short how-are-you e-mail.) You'll be amazed at how she slowly fades from your mind.

I recognize that this might be difficult (especially if she's in your social circle and is hard to avoid) but you need to do something.

[41. Gina said the following at 8:19 PM on Mar 23:]

41

Jake has a point. You can't just turn feelings on and off, so that just adds one more complication to the whole mess!

[42. Darin said the following at 9:50 PM on Mar 23:]

42

Mandi, that's a very good point about not carrying motivation to the point that it becomes desperation. And also about waiting for God's timing.

The way that I see it, we are co-laborers with God. He creates opportunities for us according to his own perfect timing and his own perfect will. We in turn have to watch for those opportunities and respond to them when they occur.

I also believe that God gives us choices in regards to who we marry so not all of those opportunities are going to be successful. But like they say, "When one door closes another one opens."

Steve, there's been quite a bit of finger pointing going on all throughout this discussion. Perhaps we need to come up with a better way of approaching these subjects which will bring men and women together instead of dividing us against each other. God bless!

[43. Rachel said the following at 10:10 PM on Mar 23:]

43

Whoa! I am surprised and encouraged that their are so many christian men trying to initiate healthy, christian relationships. Do any of you live in NJ? :)
- 'Many guy's are ADVISED that until they are "financially secure" they have no business thinking about marriage.'- Many older married christians have told me that one of the most valuable times in their marriage was in the begining when they were struggling finiancially. They said that they strengthened themselves through their love for each other and faith in God. I think family members offer this advice because they don't want to see their loved one(s) struggle. Unfortunately, by avoiding the struggle, we miss the valuable lessons learned from it. Although many divorces are fueled by financial problems, we should not dodge the challenge. We should do our best to discipline ourselves financially as singles. Then when we begin a relationship, we can gracefully work to help each other reach the goal of finacial stability.

"Finally a guy finishes college and get's a job. But that's not good enough. Before he can think of marriage, he has to buy a home...a palace for his bride"-
Don't believe the hype.
I want a palace in heaven, and a modest home on earth. Even if it is a 1 bedroom apartment in the city. As long as I know that my future husband and I are doing what God has asked us to do, even a shack is o.k. because I know it is not my final destination.

"Most of us have the same phenomenon going on that many men here have noted: the women a) shoot them down, and/or b) they think a guy that is being intentional about marriage is desperate and weird (and trust me, we're not being desperate.)"-
Who are you asking out? You might want to reconsider your qualifications if you keep being attracted to the same type of person. I am currently doing that because I keep attracting non-christian men. They are friendly, respectful, funny, even a little religous, but not Christians. I need a miracle.

[44. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:38 PM on Mar 23:]

44

Steve Watters, in the blog posting you said:

"I remember a conversation I had with a guy named Jim who met his wife in the 80s. He described seeing a girl named Mary and thinking, 'I better marry her before someone else does.'"

I find it very interesting that you posted an earlier blog regarding a dating site just for "hotties" and were (rightly) critical it as most of us wouldn't make the cut.

However, based upon what Jim said, he viewed Mary as the "best" knowing NOTHING about her except her appearance.

Does this not indeed validate the notion that we (guys especially) put more emphasis on appearance than we ought to or more than we let on?

[45. Darin said the following at 10:41 PM on Mar 23:]

45

Gina, I am the only one on here who really talked about careers. So should I assume that your comments are directed at me? Or is it just a frustration that you're bringing in from the outside?

If it is directed at me, I encourage you to go back and try to find one place where I insinuated that "career" is a dirty word as it pertains to women. You won't find it because it didn't happen.

What I did state was that women often put their careers before marriage. I also sympathized with those women because they are often EXPECTED to put their careers first.

I think that it's wonderful if a woman wants to have a career before marriage and afterward too as long as it doesn't interfere with her role as wife and mother. (And yes, I know what Proverbs 31 says.)

In case this was just a complaint you brought into the discussion from elsewhere...don't sweat it. Most of us guys understand your need for income and something to do that you find fulfilling.

[46. heidi said the following at 10:50 PM on Mar 23:]

46

james: i agree. surrender to God is key. waiting on him is as well i believe. I have encountered many "decoys" in the past few years, which has been annoying, and yet many valuable lessons have been learned.
i am still learning what waiting on God actually means, as well as what i am to do in the meantime besides making daily decisions to trust my future to his perfect timing.

[47. Darin said the following at 11:26 PM on Mar 23:]

47

Rachel, your comment on finances and marriage was awesome. (Sigh! I live all the way on the other side of the U.S. -- Too bad.)

I also was raised on those same stories of young couples starting out with nothing but love, a strong work ethic and faith in God. But when I started looking for a wife I looked high and low but couldn't find a lady who shared that view. (And now it's too late because I've already got things going on my own.) Oh well...I guess that God can even work that together for good.

What you said about people worrying because so many marriages fail over finances is true. (Add to that our modern notion that money fixes everything.) My feeling is that it's not so much a lack of money that breaks marriages apart...it's materialism. Otherwise it would have been our grandparent's generation that had the high divorce rates instead of ours.

[48. Hannah said the following at 11:54 PM on Mar 23:]

48

I agree. I and some of my female friends (whom, in my personal opinion would be in love with were i a guy...) hang out with single guy friends reguarly. We don't spend time with them simply to look for husbands, but sometimes I wonder how dense they are to not "get it." Where are these so-called pursuers?

[49. J said the following at 11:54 PM on Mar 23:]

49

Very thought provoking post for me. I'm a single Christian woman closing in on age 25. I've never dated a Christian man, even though I'd very much like to. My last relationship was five, yes, FIVE years ago. God has blessed me with a great career, an outgoing personality, and I own my own home. Desperation is something I'm NOT and I'm more of a guy's girl, with interests in computers, TV, poker, and no clinginess and talk of DTR's. Although I'm no supermodel, I'm fairly attractive. And I couldn't get a date to save my life.
For three years, I've been living in a city in the Southwest with a very low number of Christian men. At my last church there were four single men between ages 22-32. This church had a body of 5,000. Another girl and I would hang out together and we hoped one of those guys would ask us out. I developed feelings for one of the guys, and he liked my friend. Unfortunately, she did not like him. It was like a tragic love triangle.
Several months ago, my shift at work changed and I no longer have weekends off. At the encouragement of a friend's father, I started attending a Wednesday night church service. Since then, I've gotten to know quite a few of the young adults and have been getting somewhat involved. I find I can relate well and enjoy spending time with the gals. They are great to hang out with.
But the guys... that's another story. They're from another planet! It's almost like they're still stuck in junior high youth group mode. One guy is in his 20s and his "thing" is to jump out and scare people by screeching at them. He also sent me a few really freaky messages on MySpace telling me that he thought of me as family and that I'd "better do things with the group." Another got offended when he asked me how much I paid for my house, and I tactfully told him that it was personal and I wanted to keep that to myself (especially since it's currently on the market!).
Growing up in the Northeast, we were never "huggers" and I feel very uncomfortable when strange guys I don't know maul me in a bear hug. It seems fairly inappropriate for a man to do that to a woman he doesn't know, as many women have past traumatic experiences with sexual abuse, etc... But when I told them I'd rather shake hands, again, they acted like I was being rude and inconsiderate. There are about a dozen single guys in this group, but frankly, I just don't feel at ease with most of them. They don't seem to have any social awareness at all, and it's sad if they think behaving this way will attract a wife.
Oddly enough, the one male that I didn't want to run away screaming from... is new to church and isn't a Christian.
The funny thing is, all of the women are totally normal. They're kind, considerate, polite, and have a good head on their shoulders. I'm interested in hanging out with them, and developing a bond. Too bad it's not the same for the guys.
My point is, that there are some major issues with today's young adults that need to be addressed in church and in God-fearing households. Men especially, need guidance from older, more mature men. They need to be taught how to treat ladies they encounter and how to conduct themselves socially. I honestly don't feel this is happening.
God help me, but at this point in my life, I am completely turned off to the idea of dating/marrying a Christian man. All of the single ones I have ever known have been downright strange.
Now, I don't want to be finger-pointing blame, or implying that women are perfect. We're not. There are messed up Christian women. I know that for a fact. I'm one of them, and that's why I'm so grateful for the Lord's providence and grace. It just that there IS a double standard between men and women. If a single woman dresses like a slob, slept around, and doesn't have a job -- she's an untouchable disaster. If a single guy does the same thing, he's still somehow considered a catch...simply because he's available.
Ladies, I believe we need to raise the bar. Don't go out with the guy who cheated on his last girlfriend, or who "sort of" asked you out but not really. You're worth more than that. Don't waste your time on a boy, when you can have a man. We've really sunk down to the bottom of the barrel. I realized this after I'd nearly dated a non-Christian who I was not attracted to at all. As Jewish rabbi Shmuley Boteach said, "In a world without ladies, there can be no gentlemen."

[50. Matt said the following at 12:08 AM on Mar 24:]

50

For the most part I have really only "gone out" with one girl and that was only for a few dates. At this point I'm not willing to ask out a random stranger and want to know a girl better before I'd be willing to ask them out. However, then it starts becoming tough to ask out someone out that has lots of mutual friends since I've seen how bad it becomes if it doesn't work out.

So, I need to meet someone that I don't know that well that I start liking pretty quickly. Then I'd be willing to ask her out. At least, that's how I got up the nerve to ask out the only girl I have asked out.

[51. Keb said the following at 4:28 AM on Mar 24:]

51

With a little creativity, a single room can become a palace. So it's just the prince charming that's needed, as far as I'm concerned. I think a lot of us are afraid that if things aren't -perfect- before we get married, we'll doom ourselves to divorce. Rationally, we know better; we know we aren't ever going to be perfect (in this life) and neither is the person we marry.

When I think about it, the people I'm closest to aren't the people who know me at my best. They're the people who know me and knew me at my worst and love me anyway. The shared experiences, good and bad, are what make for a close relationship.

I like the idea of a forum connected with Boundless. It could be a valuable resource.

[52. Kevin said the following at 9:03 AM on Mar 24:]

52

Reading through all the comments, it is interesting to see the differing perspectives of both men and women - I know for me at least, it's great to get both sides of the story.

My initial reaction to the story was to say "Now hold on, I'm a single guy who has tried his hardest to pursue and lead in multiple relationships now and it has always been the girl who has been noncommital." And while that's certainly true in my case, I can also turn the coin around and see how many of my fellow men have been less than stellar at pursuing ladies as well (not implying that I'm perfect at all or somehow have it all together).

It seems to me that, as a culture, we have a lot of misconceptions about marriage yes, but about dating too. Even in the so-called "Christian" dating culture. For example, I am currently attending seminary in the South (I'm from the Midwest originally) and the ideas that a lot of guys and girls have at this campus are just plain wrong, perhaps even unbiblical.

While I'm no expert - believe me - perhaps both men and women have some things that need to change in this arena. Yes, we men need to step up. Yes, we need to take more risk. And yes, we need to make sure that our priorities are correct (I'm in complete agreement that men are too focused on 'financial security' and use that as a materialistic crutch). At the same time however, women, you gotta give us a chance. I know numerous women in my circle of acquaintances alone who have the mentality that if a guy isn't this gorgeous, perfect Prince Charming from date one who says and does everything perfectly that he can't be worth dating. And that's only if you can get a date in the first place (which is quite a feat in itself since, at least down here, most women seem unwilling to show you any interest one way or the other)! Keep in mind, I'm at a conservative, evangelical seminary and this is the mentality there where you would certainly think that the fields would be "ripe for the harvest" - I can only feel for those of you who are in situations where the ratios are much worse. So all that to say, perhaps a shift in thought is in order for both genders?

May God teach us and bless each of us as we try to work our way through this difficult situation that we've found outselves in.

[53. Craig said the following at 9:07 AM on Mar 24:]

53

Wow, you guys and gals don't like each other very much, do you? lol...

You know what, guys? If you've asked out a lot of gals and none of them like you...it's you. Take a good look in the mirror, and stop thinking that the fact of your Christianity and "superior character" entitles you to the affection of a woman.

And gals? Here's the simple, honest answer. If he dated you once and didn't call again, he didn't like you that much. He didn't think you were attractive or he thought you were boring. Maybe he's crazy, or maybe you're unattractive and boring. Again, Christians are still people, and people are attracted to what they're attracted to, no way around it.

I don't think God is going to "lead" you to your soulmate--there are a lot of sad, lonely people out there. So if you desire marriage and aren't having much luck...improve thyself. Seriously. Nothing helps a girl see your inner character better than a decent wardrobe, good haircut and daily workout.

[54. Laura said the following at 10:00 AM on Mar 24:]

54

The "Prince Charming and Palace" package has piqued my interest and I'd like to throw another opinion in the pool, here. A guy friend and I were talking the other day about the notion of provision. Men want to care for their women. Women want to be cared for. Unfortunately, when men think of care, they tend to think of providing financial stability, etc. While this is important, that's generally not at all what women are thinking of - we want to be cared for relationally. We want our husbands to love us - that's all.

In all honesty, I have a secret hope (oops, not a secret anymore...) that my husband and I will be somewhat financially unstable in our first few years. I want to be scrupulously frugal with him, so we can succeed together. I think that would be so much better for our marriage than straining through the tough time right after college alone, then getting married once we've established independence.

[55. Darin said the following at 10:18 AM on Mar 24:]

55

J, that's an excellent comment about "raising the bar" in terms of not dating guys who are lazy, womanizers, or who otherwise degrade women. I might also add; don't even let on that you enjoy their flirtations. (Some women enjoy the attention even though they aren't especially fond of the source.)

My point is, if an honorable Christian man is present he will likely interpret that you don't have standards yourself.

Likewise, don't reward those twenty-something year old guys who refuse to grow up by dating them. (That's just encouraging their behavior and furthermore, the mature Christian guys will be insulted by it.)

Could this be the reason that the ladies who Steve mentioned weren't being pursued by more honorable men; because of the pseudo-relationships they were engaging in? I have no idea because I don't know the people involved...but it's something to think about.

OK GUYS --- Lets give the ladies some tips on why they might not be getting asked out. (Unless of course, you've asked out every single Christian girl you've ever met.) Here are a few tips of my own:

Tip #1) PATIENCE: Honorable men aren't into dating just for entertainment purposes and leaving a trail of broken hearts behind them. Before they ask you out they need some time to evaluate your character, your values, your maturity level...and if you even have a desire for marriage. (Trust me...the guys are sizing you up weather you realize it or not.)

If you get impatient and decide to settle for a pseudo-relationship with a less than honorable man...or if you decide to entertain the flirtations of a less than honorable man...he's quite likely to cross you off his list.

Tip #2) Do NOT go around quoting 1 Corinthians 7 (i.e. it's better to be single....) unless you are at least 100 miles away from the nearest man. You may as well be telling a guy, "Don't bother asking me out...I'm not even interested in marriage."

Tip #3) Don't exaggerate about how busy you are or use "I'm too busy" as an excuse to skip functions that you simply don't WANT to attend. You may as well be telling a guy, "Don't waste your time...I don't have time to persue a relationship." (I might add to this one, "Don't BE too busy either.")

Steve, I just finished reading Joshua Harris's book on courtship "Boy Meets Girl". It would appear that he knew his wife-to-be for many months before he asked if he could court her. (Wasn't he afraid that some other guy might snatch her up?) I wonder why he was such a slouch?

[56. Vincenzo said the following at 10:39 AM on Mar 24:]

56

J said
"Growing up in the Northeast, we were never "huggers" and I feel very uncomfortable when strange guys I don't know maul me in a bear hug."

LOL, I grew up in NJ so I know what you mean about not being a hugger.

[57. Chris Krycho said the following at 10:46 AM on Mar 24:]

57

Ted mentioned one coming back in some comments he made earlier in the year. I'm still waiting to see it. :p In all seriousness, I think it'd be much more conducive than some of these threads are for conversation anyway; and I'd love to chat with people in a slightly less directed way (since these conversations, while relatively wide-randing, are still constrained rather tightly by the original post).

J - I can definitely see why you'd be frustrated. Be assured: there are Godly Christian men out there who are looking for women like you. I think it's a tragedy that guys like the ones you run into where you are act the way they do. As for the double standard, I can see what you mean. Then again, it depends on where you are: a good female friend and I were chatting a few days ago about the tendency for there to be an opposite double standard: one that essentially slams guys all the time and puts girls on a pedestal. It's weird, and I don't get it. I think men have a huge amount of work to do... but so do women. We're all fallen, and the worldiness of this generation affects us all, though in different ways. Be encouraged to know that there are places where we guys are being challenged and discipled by older men, and don't give up!

[58. James said the following at 11:24 AM on Mar 24:]

58

J, I have seen that behavior myself in quite a few of my Christian brothers, and it often makes me feel embarrassed because I'm of the same gender.

However, there are also a good number of just Christian guys who are far more respectful of our sisters in Christ.

Just keep looking. There are mature Christian men out there.

Btw, WHERE in the Southwest?

[59. Ted Slater said the following at 11:49 AM on Mar 24:]

59

Chris -- I tried e-mailing you about "the forum," but my e--mail was "greylisted." Ah, well, I guess my words about it will remain a mystery.... ;-)

[60. Melissa said the following at 12:33 PM on Mar 24:]

60

Guys-
It's not easy to turn you down!! Very often, a girl will go out with a guy, or corespond a little bit and realize that the Lord isn't necessarily leading her life in the same direction he's leading you. I've run into this situation a couple of times, and despite the fact that these are wonderful, godly young men that I praise God for, and value as people, I just don't see how it would be in either of our best interests to pursue a relationship headed towards marriage.
It's HARD to say 'I don't think this is where the Lord is leading me.' (After prayerfully considering and recieving godly council.) I know what it takes for a guy to stick his neck out and ask a girl (or her father) to pursue something, but please don't get discouraged!! We're all only going to marry 1 person (hopefully) so don't lose heart and don't stop looking for opportunities to initiate!
Craig, I really appreciated your comments because it's true...Christians are also human (shocking, I know, right? ;)) But compatability and life direction are things that should be considered. You obviously can't judge a person's conversation skills from just 1 talk, but a few can give you a pretty good idea of how they relate to others and their surroundings. Since I'm a person that values communication, verbal interaction with a person is very important to me! If you don't seem to connect, or if conversation is always stale, then don't be so desperate to find a spouse that you overlook those details.
AND HYGIENE!!!
I've also felt that sometimes 'good christian guys' with 'superior character quality' suffer from 'super-model syndrome' and seem to think that aside from their apperance, they are entitled to a barbie-doll-gorgeous godly christian woman. Honestly, men, you consider physical attraction important right?? Just because women aren't steriotypically 'visual' creatures, we'd love it it some of you would look like you made an effort to care about how you appear. Not because we're being shallow, but it helps us to feel that you respect and honor us. Whether or not you feel that you are attractive, it IS attractive when we can tell that you care about yourselves and us in that way.

[61. Chris Krycho said the following at 12:53 PM on Mar 24:]

61

Weird. I just tried to send an e-mail directly to line@boundless.org and it bounced. Something very odd is going on. I'm hoping the e-mail from you will still come through, as I'm hoping that your message will just get resent by your server (if the MTA just sent its normal "you got greylisted" message, rather than a permanent delivery failure message). C'est la vive, I suppose.

[62. red said the following at 12:55 PM on Mar 24:]

62

"I better marry her before someone else does."
Are there any guys thinking like that these days?

[American perspective, no comment on other countries/cultures.]

No. Reasons:

1) Marriage is only a desirable state among Christians anymore, and the percentage of true Christians is small.
[thus, the "too few singles / location" problem]

2) Those who are born with or have obtained "good looks" AND confidence can have their choice of a mate, know this, and have time on their side. [thus, the "pseudo-relationship" problem]

3) Those who don't will never be engaged in a "competition" about them (girls), or lack the confidence to be involved in one (guys). [thus, the "no one is interested in me" / "no direction" problems]

Observations, for those who would be critical of the above:

1) Jacob worked for 14 YEARS to obtain beautiful Rachel, proving as importunate in marital pursuit as he later did in wrestling the angel of God for a blessing. Rachel, in turn, bore the choice son of their years (Joseph), who later rescued them from famine.

2) Sarah, Rebekah, Rachel, Joseph, David, Abagail, Bathsheba, Tamar, Abishag, Esther, Job's daughters after his affliction, and there are others, all are referred to as "beautiful of form".

3) Physical attraction is a key initiatior of non-arranged real marriages (Deut. 21:11). Physical _and_ spiritual beauty together in youth make one a prime marriage candidate. For the physical without the spiritual, see Prov. 11:22. For the spiritual without the physical, the attraction comes after marriage (Prov 31:10-31, 1 Peter 3:1-6). A culture defined by physical beauty and against arranged marriage though, leaves many of the latter scenario not marrying at all... is that what we find today?

Applications:
Lord willing - when I meet a specific financial milestone (projected late summer), I will embark on my search for a mate. Not only will I fast and pray beforehand, but I plan to work out more and lose some weight, and seek out a stylist and fashion consultant (either professionals or friends) before I start down this road...

Post-script:
Add to all this, that Christ is my love above all, and I am satisfied with Him. As a guy, I will do what is required of me, both by Scripture and cultural custom to prepare for and seek a mate, but if God does not bless me in this way, I should not be disappointed. It is interesting that the great reformation preachers speak so little of marriage and family life, but yet so much of the riches of Christ and His salvation - would it be that we too would "Focus on Christ" instead of only "Focus on the Family".

[63. Chris B. said the following at 1:31 PM on Mar 24:]

63

I see a lot of good discussion on this subject, along with a lot of frustrated men and women.

While it is true that we could all do more to make ourselves more approachable or open to godly relationships--and avoid worldly relationships--we must as some point be willing to break the cycle, and be willing to sacrifice in order to transform our situation. In this context, the biblical mandate to sacrifice falls squarely upon men.

Paul's words in Ephesians 5 are pertinent to this situation, when Paul commands, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word" (Ephesians 5:25-26). Sacrifice is the key to proper love for husbands towards their wives; and, by extension, men who are pursuing their future wives. In the end, all of our complaints only lead to negative thinking and excuses, which undermine our efforts to pursue godly relationships. Men, we can blame women for our failures, or we can be prepared to sacrifice, and win their hearts with Christ-like love.

Any Christian woman should honor such a sacrifice, and it will certainly not go unrewarded by the Lord.

Concerning the request for a forum on Boundless in which singles could meet one another, I support the idea. As long as we see the same vigilant content moderation as we find on Boundless Line, I can't see how facilitating godly relationships would be a bad measure. Naturally some relationships will always end in break-ups and heartache, but that should not deter us from responding to God's call to marry.

[64. Charles H. said the following at 2:02 PM on Mar 24:]

64

Second the idea of how much fun a forum could be. I'd love to meet more Christians in my area. From Rachel's posting I know she's within a day's drive of me -- and I bet that's a lot of others here!

Reasons I haven't asked some women for second dates:

- She isn't Christian (hopefully not applicable to people here!)

- She is already married to her career. Gina, you're absolutely right that women need to support themselves before marriage. I've dated a law school graduate, and have gone out with other physicians. But the flip side is that many professional women seem to make their jobs their lives. (Probably true of us men, too!) In fairness to them, they're trying to overcome decades of "You're not really a woman if you don't have both a family and a career" in the culture.

- She has so much emotional baggage that I give up. I've met women who successfully dealt with horrible situations in their lives, to the point where I would believe they were ready for marriage. I've also met many who had yet to deal with very minor issues and so let them become relationship killers.

- She has serious problems in her Christian life and no interest in solving them. Again, I'm certainly not perfect either, but the "I'm already perfect" attitude sure turns me off in a hurry.

- We just aren't compatible. If every joke I tell gets a blank look, the chances of a second date are zero. If I'm boggled by the things she finds interesting or attractive, it's also not looking good. But you know what? That's not sin. That's human difference. If you aren't compatible with someone on the first date, why keep banging your head against the wall?

J, I *definitely* feel your pain about meeting people at church. I am getting accustomed to being one of a small handful of people in my generation at decent-sized churches. Part of this is attributable to abortion; our generation is missing millions of people, some of whom would doubtless be in church. But another part is Christians who simply don't go to church, or people who could have been raised in the faith but whose parents didn't bother to teach them.

Last but not least, let's not lay all the blame for emphasizing appearance on men. I can't count how many women I've met who just want a guy who's kind, sweet, and considerate -- and 6ft+, athletic, wealthy... Sure, guys fall into this trap. But so do women.

[65. Darin said the following at 2:16 PM on Mar 24:]

65

To all of you ladies who pointed out that "money isn't everything" -- Thank you! You've restored my faith!

I also need to clarify my own position a little bit. Us guys shouldn't carry the "bonding through our financial hardship" thing too far. I'm fine with the idea if it's in the context of "not putting off marriage". But a guy who wants to get married shouldn't feel like it's a time to be irresponsible or to "celebrate his freedom". If he can get ahead now and save his future wife from that stress ... so much the better.

And now back onto the subject of why godly women don't always get asked out.

Come on guys, I think some of the ladies want some answers. Here are a couple more tips that I thought of myself:

Tip #1) When you are talking about your standards and what you expect out of a man ... don't be threatening about it (i.e. "Any man that I go out with had better remember to open my door for me or I'll give him a piece of my mind!"). Noone likes to feel like they're going to get their head chopped off the first time they make a mistake.

Tip #2) Don't go overboard when talking about your standards. A lot of women tend to do this when they're talking to their lady friends and believe me; the guys are listening. I've known some great Christian gals who never got asked out because they had given themselves the label "impossible to please".

Tip #3) Guys are watching for many of the same clues that you look for. Take "anger management" for example. Guy's watch to see how you respond to disagreements ... such as the ones that often occur in discussions like this one. Guys respect women who know how to disagree respectfully. Women who become sarcastic in their responses receive a big demerit. (You might be surprised to know that to some guys biting your tongue is often even worse than being sarcastic. Guys HATE the silent treatment and they hate being left in the dark about what they said/did wrong.)

[66. Jonathan from Canada said the following at 2:49 PM on Mar 24:]

66

J - what a tragic story. I look back at my college years when I was total goofball and realize my buddies and I probably ruined the impressions of Christian guys for dozens of Christian girls. Yet it was so much fun.

Fortunately, college is over.

[67. Elizabeth said the following at 2:58 PM on Mar 24:]

67

I have been reading this blog for some time, and I thought I would comment on something that I feel has been overlooked. What about those women (and I would be one of them) who feel called to a specific area of service? For instance, I feel God is calling me to do mission work overseas. I would like to be married, but I believe that this calling is stronger than any one to get married, so I will not consider any man if he does not feel a similar calling. Many of the comments on the issue of finding a husband/wife centre on the idea of finding a Christian spouse, without seeming to consider the idea of a central vision/mission for the couple and whether this matches. (And there are considerations of calling, I find there is more about whether the woman is willing to follow the husband's calling) I am wondering what some of the opinions on this subject are?

[68. Mark said the following at 4:05 PM on Mar 24:]

68

Darin, had some excellent advice. Craig's was worth heeding as well, though it's not a sure-fire recipe for success. I'm all about the good personal hygiene, dressing well and working out. I've even got a good job lined up after graduation and what have I reaped with all of it: nada.

That being said, as I write and prepare to defend my dissertation, I've had to stop worrying about other things that I used to lose sleep over--questions like "will I ever get married?" and related issues. Perhaps I'm starting to wax nostalgic now, but I've realized how much God has blessed me during my last four years of grad. school, all of the great friends I've made, and how I've grown spiritually. When I was worrying about things that were not completely under my control (I can only initiate, I can't make them date/court/marry me) I often ignored the other areas of my life in which I was growing and experiencing God. Lately, I've been reminded of Peter's walking on the water toward Jesus. Why did Peter start to sink? Because he took his eyes off of Christ, doubted and became afraid (Matthew 14: 29-31).

God provides what we need, but He never gives us more than we need and He never gives it before we need it. Trying to find a godly spouse can be infuriating, but I believe this helps to build the character that that person of the opposite sex will one day find oh-so appealing.

[69. Eric said the following at 5:23 PM on Mar 24:]

69

Sina wrote:
"Perhaps we need the others to chime in...those who are not asking girls out and girls who are turning guys down."

Well, I recently asked a girl out for the first time, with the intentions of exploring a dating relationship, but it was a *long* road for me to get to that state.

I suffered a hurt, call it a "heart wound", very young, which caused me to develop a mental mechanism where, throughout my adolescence and high school/college years, if I caught myself developing an attraction to a girl, I'd laugh it off and tell myself "yeah, right - nothing'll happen". And sure enough, after telling myself that, after a while those feelings would go away, and I'd be delighted that I got rid of that "problem".

As you might expect, that led to nothing good, internally - sadness, depression, cynicism - all regarding thinking about romance. I had so many other blessings to be thankful for and be happy about that I tried not to think about this area of life. Most times, I really didn't think about it. It was better that way.

It was only recently, when I identified this heart wound and asked the Lord to take me through it, that I found healing. And that desire to identify it was caused by the marriage of my best friend, who pretty much had the same dating experience as I (none). Through the witness of his godly courtship (and marriage, wow!) with a wonderful woman, I knew the same just might be possible for me as well! *That* was an extremely emotional revelation to say the least.

Through awesome talks with both him and his wife, along with a few great Christian books and some particular sermons, the Lord healed me. And I came to a place where through reliance on the Lord, I think I can become a godly boyfriend and husband.

I still struggle somewhat when I've had a setback (she said she was too busy), and the enemy whispers, "You don't have what it takes", "That stuff only happens in movies and fairy tales", and "What makes you believe that you're actually worthy of a woman?"; but I know that He who is within me is greater than He who is in the world, and that He will be faithful to complete the good work in me which He began.

A section of another Boundless article touched on these deceptions - see "Less Criticism, More Support" in What Guys Wish You Knew:

"OK. This is going to sound like the guys are making excuses, but hear us out. Everything — I mean everything — in this world is trying to keep us from maturing into manhood."

When you consider the enemy is part of this world, it makes even more sense.

Another quote from that article:
"Most young men have had little in the way of authentic Christian masculinity modeled for them, so they're blazing new territory. They're not there yet, but they're working on it, and they are often as disappointed in their progress as you are. Just remember, even though there's a lot more of what he doesn't know than what he does know, he's learning, so don't give up on him yet. Your support means everything to him. Ask how you can pray for him; speak words of encouragement; if you notice his efforts toward maturity and manhood, let him know. It'll do wonders for him."

I don't know if ladies realize how powerful their gentle encouragement is to a Christian guy...

So to answer the question, "Where's the motivation, guys?", in my case, I never pursued a girl because of the above.

The things I would ask Boundless to do *much* more of is to encourage guys to identify the heart issues which cause all of the symptoms (bad behaviors) they and the ladies observe:
- Extended adolescence
- Lack of clarity or intentionality
- Passivity
- Lack of leadership
These are all symptoms of a deeper heart issue, in my opinion, and while discussion of them is certainly valid, oftentimes the cause of them lies deeper.

I'm sorry to say it, but posts like these would, in the past, discourage me immensely. It's only now that I have hope that the Lord will make me into the man He wants me to be, that I can come away from reading them without despairing. At the end of these posts, or any articles which focus on the failings of men, *please* give us guys some encouragement that we *can* actually overcome these failings. Just some feasible "next steps" would be incredibly helpful.

Instead of me asking myself, "Boundless, Where's the Motivation, Guys?"; I'd love to see articles where the end result is direct encouragement.

[70. Bethany said the following at 5:40 PM on Mar 24:]

70

In addition to the forum suggestion, what about an event similar to the Rocky Mountain Christian Singles Mixer mentioned in January? Or - simply a conference, like New Attitude, for Boundless readers? I think anything that would allow us to meet each other, in person or in a forum, would be something to consider.

[71. Melissa said the following at 5:43 PM on Mar 24:]

71

Mark, thanks so much for your post!! It's such a great reminder that we need to remain God-focused ESPECIALLY in this area of our lives!
Being content with the lot that God has set for us is, I feel, an important concept for us to embrace because if we don't, then we won't be fully satisfied in any realm of our existence. INCLUDING our future marriage!
We can also take heart because our Heavenly Father knows us infinitely better than we know ourselves, and he IS a god of beauty. If we can revel in the beauty of where he has placed us, he will provide us with something (a relationship maybe...) of exceptional beauty, so much more than we would have planned for ourselves. If we have faith in his supremacy, we know without any doubt that he orders our lives for OUR GOOD and HIS GLORY!!
(On the flipside, when we feel like we don't necessarily trust him,or maybe should help him out with his plan for our lives, it's a direct affront to the creator of the universe and lover of our souls.)
BTW, loving the idea of a forum! Could be a lot of fun!

[72. Mike said the following at 5:55 PM on Mar 24:]

72

It's a two way street on this issue. All I hear from single women is that they are looking for an honest, hardworking, decent christian man and yet they are still waiting for the " handsome man, highly successful riding on the beach on a horse with his hair blowing in the wind in slow motion". You can have it both ways ladies, as a single man, it's very discouraging trying to enter the dating scene with women who call themselves christian and yet they fall into what the secular image of what a man is and should be.

[73. Chris Krycho said the following at 6:09 PM on Mar 24:]

73

Elizabeth:

I agree with you, there. A lot of times there's such a big focus on getting married that we forget that there are good reasons - reasons beside lack of commitment, etc. - that keep people from pursuing some of those around them. Like you, I have some pretty specific calling on my life, at least so far as I understand it at this point. A significant chunk of that involves being overseas for an extended period of time (to be determined by God); and I am probably going into vocational ministry after that. There are things that go with that that simply are not the life that most Christian women are looking for - and that's all right. It does, however, limit my choices significantly.

There are some different schools of thought here. One of the men who's discipling me - a very Godly man who I respect immensely - takes the view that as long as you marry someone who will follow God, you're fine, because if you are following Him together, you're in good shape. I see his point, but I disagree with it a little: if I, feeling led as I am to be overseas for a good chunk of time, marry a woman who really feels strongly led to be working with elementary school kids in ghettos in America, then there are going to be some problems: not least that one or the other of us is simply going to have to be walking in a direction contrary to the things God has burdened our heart with. Now, at the same time, people can change people's hearts and desires. (He has mine... if you'd asked me a year ago I'd have said there was no way I'd ever be going overseas; and even six months ago I was more just confused about where I was going than anything else.) So there's a balance, I think.

Tips for the ladies:

(1) Don't be afraid to let guys know (in a general sense, not direct to one particular guy) that you are actually interested in marriage. Might not sound like a big deal, but honestly, it is. So many women are not interested in marriage, and especially in kids. I will not marry a woman - and most men in my circles wouldn't - who isn't interested in being a mom over any career. [Guys, take heart, I know quite a few of those kinds of Godly women who really are interested in pursuing family over career.] [Ladies, I am not condemning your having careers!] It's always a huge encouragement to me when some of my female friends are talking about their interest in marriage and children... and it gets me excited to pursue, challenges me to buck up the courage and go for it, knowing that there is a reward for it!

(2) Don't rule a guy out just because he's not your idea of what he ought to look like. Just as you often point out to us the frustration of not being one of the "top five" girls in the church, etc., guys have the same issue. There are some amazingly Godly guys I know who just aren't that good looking, and others who might be a bit shy or slightly lacking in social graces - but are working on it. Don't be afraid to give those guys a chance. You might discover a jewel of a man who, though quiet and possibly even awkward in large groups, is amazing one on one, who is pursuing God like crazy, etc. You might not, either, and that's fine.

(3) Don't let the idea that your beauty should be inward be an excuse for sloppiness. Just as some of you have commented that you appreciate it when we have good hygiene, try to keep in decent shape, etc., we appreciate those same things in you. A lot. You don't have to be the thinnest woman on the planet, or even close; you don't have to be in perfect shape. Just the fact that you're staying healthy really does mean something to a lot of us. Put on a little makeup - not much, but a little - when you go to church. Dress nicely when you go to church, too, if that fits with the church culture (and maybe if it doesn't) - and this one goes for guys, too. I really appreciate the girls who take the extra time for that, just as you've noted you appreciate it when we do.

(4) Focus on growing in Christ. Find a way to be discipled and mentored by someone older than you - and then turn around and pour it back into those younger than you. I know of almost nothing more attractive to me than women who are actively pursuing a deeper walk with Christ and pouring that out into those who are coming along behind them. (Of course, your purpose in this shouldn't be to catch a guy's eye - but it may well be a consequence of it.)

(5) Hard as it might be to pull off, don't be afraid of a long distance relationship. One of the most amazing relationships I've watched is that of one of my best friends, who is now engaged to the man she started dating a year and a few months ago. They had a hard time of it, but their relationship is, I think, stronger for it. He would drive up here for a weekend, stay in my room so they could have time together, then drive back down; she would do similarly. One of the most exciting moments of my life was when she called me over Christmas break and told me they were engaged. It's hard, and it's not for everyone - but don't run from it.

That's all I can think of for right now; I'll be back if something more comes up in my brain.

If I had to sum up my thoughts on the matter in general: let's try to avoid a double standard. Guys should be willing to see to the inner beauty of a woman... and likewise women towards men. Guys should be willing to pursue... and women should be willing to be pursued. The responsibility is on all our shoulders to do this together.

Ted, you might try another e-mail address of mine. I've switched it for this particular posting.

[74. Laur said the following at 6:40 PM on Mar 24:]

74

i say, bring on the forum!

i think there are oodles and oodles of things wrong with all of us. even so, i think that, with an attitude of submission to God and Christ-like love, we are going to be fine. obedience, y'all. obedience is huge. we must remember that, no matter how badly we want to get married, we are going to be ok whether we do or not - because God is good and kind and isn't going to withold what is best for us.
we are loved by an all-wise and utterly merciful God.

that said, i'm all for us all "meeting" and chatting it up more often. you know what i'm saying? :)

[75. rich said the following at 6:42 PM on Mar 24:]

75

Darin,

I agree with those "tips" you offer. Reading them was one of those situations where I thought, "gee, I've always felt/thought this way, but couldn't quite put the feelings/thoughts into communication that would be powerfully stated. Boy I have tried, and yet I always seem to get tongue tied or always seem to stick my foot in my mouth.

I'm actually experiencing some of this right now: I'm currently pursuing a woman, but she is ullltra busy...more busy than I am (and I keep myself pretty occupied). This is frustrating. I'm the type of guy that wants to actively lead, pursue, and woo. I want to bring the right woman into my life and "show her around;" I want to involve her in my life. That by no means means that I "chase her around." Without getting into it, I think I have an appropriate sense of space. But if I don't have room to do those things I just mentioned, or if I don't feel like she's appreciative of that, I leave her alone.

[76. annie said the following at 7:07 PM on Mar 24:]

76

Good stuff everyone! As I have been reading through all of your comments, I've thought "Oh, how I can relate to the frustrations." So, many times I have thought, "Lord, where are the Godly guys who will initiate the relationship?"
But, as I've been processing and praying to God, I have just been reminded of God's goodness. You know, He is a big God. He is bigger than our circumstances whether it be location, finances, population. The thing I love about God is that He specializes in the impossible! As we seek Him wholeheartly and walk in His will, He honors that. And He says as we delight ourselves in Him, He will give us the desires of our heart (Ps. 37:4). I've seen Him do it in so many areas of my life. And I know that as I wait on Him and remember that His heart for me is good, He will bring along the right guy when the time is right. So, be encouraged in staying true to God. His heart for you all is so big! His timing is perfect. And as you seek His face, He will give you wisdom to know the next step. And the blessings of the Lord are so worth the wait and the emotional turmoil we so often feel!!

[77. Annie said the following at 7:17 PM on Mar 24:]

77

Good stuff everyone! As I have been reading through all of your comments, I have thought "Oh, how I can relate to the frustration!" There have been so many times when I have asked "Where are the Godly guys who will initiate a relationship?"
But, I cannot help but be reminded of God's goodness. He is a big God! The thing I love so much about Him is that He specializes in the impossible! So often we limit Him. God is bigger than our circumstances of location, population, finances. As we look to Him and walk in His will, He honors our obedience. He says as we delight ourselves in Him, He will give us the desires of our heart (Ps. 37:4). I have seen this happen in so many areas of my life. And I know that when the time is right, I will meet the right guy. So, be encouraged! God's heart for you all is so big. His timing is perfect and I know the blessings that come from Him will be well worth the wait! Keep seeking His face.

[78. Darin said the following at 7:26 PM on Mar 24:]

78

Since the subject of physical appearance keeps coming up I feel obliged to put in my own two cents worth.

First of all, I agree that physical appearance does play a role in initial attraction. But, as you get to know a person, your PERCEPTION of how they look changes (for better OR worse) according to the inner qualities that you see in them.

Some people would therefore draw the conclusion that since inner beauty is what counts the most in the long run, then physical appearance shouldn't matter at all. Here's the problem with that reasoning: How do you get to the point of "secondary attraction" unless you're able to attract someone initially?

Here are some pointers if you find yourself lacking in the "skin deep" kind of beauty:

1)First, change what you can (i.e. hygeine, diet, exercise, etc.)...and forget about the rest.

2)Second, get involved in a group (church singles, cell group, etc.) where you can get to know people on a deeper level outside of a dating relationship.

3)Show hospitality; pay people compliments (to everyone in the group that is); refuse to participate in gossip; be cheerful; be positive; be confident (i.e. don't allow negative thoughts about yourself). -- Good advice for all of us really!

4)Give it time. It might take someone as long as a couple of years to get to know you on that level...but the up-side to that is that you probably won't need as long of a courtship because you will already know each other.

And now I have a comment for everyone: Many people impair their ability to get from "initial attraction" to "secondary attraction" because of L-U-S-T. I'm not just talking about drooling over the swimsuit calender (guys) or the "men of...whatever" calender (ladies). I'm talking about the more subtle things too. I'm convinced that many guys fail to initiate relationships because of this single issue...and many women turn guys down for the same reason.

[79. Betty said the following at 7:54 PM on Mar 24:]

79

Hi everyone,

From reading the postings one question comes to mind "Is there such a thing as trying to hard?" I don't mean to back track and discourage all the well-meaning effort but perhaps we all need to have a little more faith that God works at his own time and pace, and a little less angst, concerning the vocation of marriage. (Yes, vocation).
When discussing relationships, my brother once said to me that the more one pursues something, the more it moves beyond one's grasp. From experience, I can see that he is right. (Never thought I'd say that!) Let go and let God. Afterall, there is only 'one thing needful.' What if we focused more on living the life to which He calls us, believing, to paraphrase from Mark's posting, that He will give us what is necessary, when it is necessary, in order to better answer that call?

[80. Caleb said the following at 10:56 PM on Mar 24:]

80

When I was seeking God about marriage, He revealed something to me that was very profound and took my relationship with Him to a much greater level. He showed me that there were three stages to the Hebrew tabernacle. There was the outer court, the inner court, and the Holy of Holies. Many people remain in the outer court. They are saved, but they do not press any further in the knowledge of God. Some press into the inner courts. In the inner court, you experience His presence, you get revelation on the Word, and you let your prayers and petitions be made known to Him. But few venture into the Holy of Holies. There is an ache inside us to stand before the manifest presence of God, to go beyond the wisdom of God and the knowledge of God, to God Himself. It is terrifying, because it requires us to come face to face with our deepest core need for unconditional love that we have tried to fill so many times. It requires us to strip ourselves of everything that could possibly satisfy and come before Him totally naked, without any covering of our shortcomings and failures, awaiting His answer. When you hear Him say, "I love you" it will change your life forever, because now you know that He accepts you despite all your imperfections, and you are filled with confidence. But you must EXPERIENCE it in the place of prayer and fasting and desparation for God. It is not enough to know it mentally. So many people turn aside to other things, even good things, like marriage, to ease that ache. But they go through the rest of their lives always wondering...was there more? They are never fully confident in who they are because there are things in their lives that they never laid bare before God in that place, and they are haunted by the thought that He would reject them for it if He knew. I believe many of you are standing at the veil of the entrance to the Most Holy Place of intimacy with God, to encounter Him at a level far beyond what you have walked in thus far. He is calling you to come closer, from knowing His wisdom, knowledge, and book, to knowing Him. He wants you to experience the joy and confidence of being fully known yet fully accepted. Is there a place for marriage? Absolutely! (Anyway, as a single guy, I sure hope so) But it is after an encounter in that place that you are changed, and you come out radiating the presence, the beauty, and the love of God. That is what the Bible talks about when it refers to the inner beauty of the heart. That is when it is filled with His love and is coming from the inside out. You've seen people like that, haven't you? It comes from the place of encounter. Every single person who was significant in the Bible had a supernatural encounter with God. He wants to give it to you more than you want it. Just ask. Then you will be irresistible to the opposite sex, when you are consumed by His love. :)

[81. DanL said the following at 11:19 PM on Mar 24:]

81

At the risk of being somewhat blunt, does Steve Watters ever read any of the comments on this site? There are innumerable previous posts on The Line filled with comments by men who are trying to pursue women, but who achieve minimal success. Granted Watters notes that there are “some” men amongst Boundless’s readership who are “solid and well-motivated,” and says that he is not “trying to pile onto guys.” Yet, piling onto guys is precisely what the does, and given that these responses from _numerous_ male readers to previous posts seem to show the an overwhelming majority of them are trying to intent ally pursue women I am forced to view Watters’s choice of the word “some” was an attempt to minimize this section of this male readership.

I hope I am wrong, but I’m start to sense the real message of Boundless that real Christian men are successful with women, and those who are not are “losers” who aren’t worth caring about. Note the way Watters is quick to assume that if men are single, then that likely means they are “acting like they have all the time in the world,” and have no motivation. Never mind that he apparently reaches this conclusion from “stories” he heard rather any interactions with real male Boundless readers, who routinely claim otherwise in the comments. It makes perfect sense if you view men who have been turned down a time or two to be an embarrassment to the church and wished to pretend they didn’t exist. Earlier this month The Line ran an article that amongst other things noted who men have no support structure assist them through romantic breakups. But nothing since then as seem to have dealt with this subject since, evidently, men who get dumped aren’t the kind of men who matter.

This seems to also be echoed in many of the comments here. From Chris B. (Mar 23. 1:01 pm): “The truth is that most of the guys with a lot of motivation to pursue godly young women are already taken, because they pursued the woman to whom God led them without hesitation.” From Zeph Greenwell (Mar. 23 2:08 pm): “Guys who want to marry do marry.” (There would seem to be numerous counter-examples to this [me, for example], but I guess they don’t count as real “guys.”) From Craig (Mar. 24. 9:07 am): “You know what, guys? If you've asked out a lot of gals and none of them like you...it's you.”

It seems like every story on Boundless about a man and women always ends up being a success story where they get married in the end. I wish that they could run a few where the relationships didn’t work out. I also wish they would be careful about drawing conclusions based on the occasional story they here coupled with letters written to Boundless (and I highly suspect women are much more likely to write to such sources on such topics). And while I’m making a wish list, perhaps next time they could just give me a nice paper cut and pour lemon juice on it rather than run posts like this one.

[82. BDB said the following at 11:30 PM on Mar 24:]

82

Getting the Second Date:

OK, I've had some time to think about it, and here's a few more observations. These are all personal observations over a meal, whether on a date or at the same table with both women and their date:

- What % of the conversation is the woman talking about herself? Does she ever ask her date questions? Does she listen to the answers and follow up with another relevant question?

- Is the woman ramping down her intellect in order to not intimidate the man? I'm surprised at the number of women who do this instead of considering an intellectual match. I know women who've married both ways - those with the intellectual match are much happier.

- If someone orders the most expensive item on the menu, she should eat ALL of it. Otherwise, order a less expensive, smaller lobster. Or steak. Or whatever. (Though I wouldn't be offended to see a woman eat an entire lobster and 32-oz Porterhouse steak in front of me in one sitting.)

- Be respectful to your date and to the wait staff. I'm appalled when I see a wife verbally tear down her husband as soon as he steps away from the table. Those aren't happy marriages.

- Find a way to pay at least three compliments - only one of which on appearance. This requires paying attention to your date! But it gets you invited back.

- As to Elizabeth's point about what to do when you know God's calling...it did change what I was looking for. If someone laughed when I discussed what I felt God had called me to do, I wouldn't pursue anything further with her. On the flip side, I did run into someone who appeared to have the same calling that I did. When we went to lunch the conversation was...unexpectedly good.

[83. Chris Krycho said the following at 11:39 PM on Mar 24:]

83

Betty, while I understand the sentiment behind that, and largely agree with it, my concern is that it's often used to justify a lack of intentionality and pursuit on the guys' part and a lack of responsiveness to that intentionality on the girls' part. It's all to easy to develop a "sit back and let God do the work" attitude out of what you describe. In reality, it's somewhere in between: we need to be conscientiously pursuing it, but letting go of the angst and frustration and trusting that God will in His own time. It is, as so many things are, not a case of "either-or" but rather "both-and."

[84. J said the following at 11:44 PM on Mar 24:]

84

James, when I say Southwest, I mean the western tip of Texas.

If you all are looking for another place to vent/discuss, a bunch of single Christians have a blog together. It's become quite a hotspot. We've talked about all of these topics and more.

http://fabulousfemales.blogspot.com

As a disclaimer about the name, it started off being girls, then, one-by-one, guys kept asking to join!

[85. BDB said the following at 11:55 PM on Mar 24:]

85

Betty,

You and Chris and Elizabeth are very right. And I believe that is even more true for those of us who have already submitted other chunks of our life over to God. By the time we've submitted to God's calling, we've probably learned (sometimes the hard way) that God's gifts are better than our own efforts, as long as we listen and are obedient. Marriage will come as a gift, not as something we engineer for ourselves.

[86. J said the following at 12:04 AM on Mar 25:]

86

(Though I wouldn't be offended to see a woman eat an entire lobster and 32-oz Porterhouse steak in front of me in one sitting.)

This sounds absolutely mouthwatering right now! The best I've done is an 18 oz. porterhouse. One of the best meals of my entire life!

[87. Samuel PG said the following at 12:07 AM on Mar 25:]

87

Reading through many of these posts (but not all, there are A LOT), the recurring theme of woundedness seems to resound. I am glad to see everyone being willing to share tips and advice that will hopefully help everyone to improve themselves, but the background music of bitterness toward God and members of the opposite sex seems to be present. I can understand why this can be so upsetting, but maybe we should each reflect on whether or not we are harboring anger toward God for not yet providing a husband or wife or bitterness toward the opposite sex for not responding to us the way we would like. The resentment is understandable, but as Christians we are not allowed even reasonable resentment. Now might just be the time to forgive.

[88. J said the following at 12:13 AM on Mar 25:]

88

Samuel, at this point in my existence, I know that I can't get married unless it's a man who truly loves God. Sorry to sound jaded and pessimistic, but I'm skeptical that a guy like that exists -- who would also be compatible with myself. So I've resigned myself to being basically asexual and dreaming about joining a convent.

[89. xeres said the following at 12:29 AM on Mar 25:]

89

Hi all!

I know this is late but my tips sum up for a few thing.

1) Trusting is an active action, an intentional act, not something just simply being overly open. In regards to marriage and getting to that, if you trust God for your marriage, then be watchful and willing to anticipate the opportunities God will give you. Look forward to it so you won't have be on the prowl all the time.

2) Learn how to be a servant (in a bibical mindset). When you're making a connection with someone you're interested in, focus on how to serve that person gladly. If you become romantically involved, keep learning. If married, keep learning and take your time to learn.

3)Don't pull the soulmate thing. It's one thing to talk about marriage but it's another if you said you're looking for your soulmate. The concept is just downright narcissitic and mindless. Not to mention it puts unnatural and unnecessary pressure. If you want a soulmate, get a cat.

4)You don't just know. Hardly anyone buys furniture that way. I'm sure most of us won't vote for a President that way either.I don't understand why in marriage, they don't participate the mental process of counting the cost.Marriage is a something that you need to actually weigh the scales, reflect, and explore.

5) Learn to love God first. Through loving God, you will learn to love people too, not just for the sake of loving.

The rest of other things are already mention from the previous comments. they are all good too.

[90. xeres said the following at 12:48 AM on Mar 25:]

90

DanL, what you just said right that is downright harsh but at some points true. Tone it down a little bit. Just a little bit. They don't intent to give off that message. Otherwise, the writers would be complete hypocrite. I do admit, however, they have misconception just like anyone else. I think when we all are so bitter at being shot down in the relationship department that we just want to say. whatever. We are dealing with humans. I always give people the benefit of the doubt even if I may come off as naive

[91. Erika said the following at 1:10 AM on Mar 25:]

91

Wow. Clearly this is a topic that tons of us have strong feelings about, and I'll freely admit that I read the relationship posts and discussions far more eagerly than many other topics. I'm still trying to figure it out as well.
Some of us girls have, unfortunately, had too much time to develop a strong sense of independence. And I really do mean unfortunately. In the last 8 years, I have been in numerous roommate situations where I have had to be the "tough" girl of the group... kill the spiders, fix the shower, change tires, move the heavy objects, troubleshoot the computer, and far to many other things that tend to fall into the guy's realm of home and social life simply because I didn't have the patience to wait for someone else to show up and kill, fix, or move whatever it was and I quite honestly could do it. So, that's become a part of how I see my identity, and while I sometimes get so tired of being "strong" enough, I don't know anything else. As crazy as it seems, having that independence is what makes me insecure about being in a serious relationship becuase it would basically redefine my "identity". I want it redefined, but at the same time I can't see what it would become so I'm scared of the change.
So, one of the traits I know I need is a man who is a strong leader. Someone who can say, "no, I am going to do this, and you just need to let me." And then stick to his guns, as it were, when I protest. It's a tall order, I know, but I firmly believe that God intends the man to be the leader, so there must be men out there who are strong like that.
To so many of the guys who are posting here... I'm both encouraged and slightly saddened by what you write. Encouraged because it's clear that you do want to pursue someone and are really putting the time and energy into figuring out how to go about that. It's good to see some evidence that guys like you are out there. Saddened because I don't see those attitudes in the men where I live.
Since this is so late in the string, it may get entirely lost and overlooked, but I'd vote for that forum too.

[92. BDB said the following at 1:45 AM on Mar 25:]

92

OK, I admit that I've never actually seen a 32-oz Porterhouse on the menu, but I assumed that when combined with lobster it would be the most expensive item on the menu. 18-oz is extremely impressive and would still make a great date story.

Of course, at a French restaurant, the most expensive item on the menu would be tiny and designed to look pretty, but I'm now waaaay off topic...

[93. James said the following at 2:26 AM on Mar 25:]

93

Right on Samuel! That is the very thing I have been battling in my heart, and as I've been giving it over to God more and began putting away any feelings of accusation towards the opposite sex, there has been a noticeable increase in the peace in my life.

Now to some more practical tips:

Ladies, what to do if you want to FRIGHTEN OFF a godly man:
-mention within his hearing that you cannot see yourself married anytime soon, because there's so much else you'd like to do first (yes, I've heard this)
-say the same thing, but with regards to children. Conversely, one of the biggest encouragements that I heard from a godly Christian sister before she left for a year-long mission trip overseas was that she really wanted to be a mom. That she said it that simply, without the usual qualifiers I hear of, "but not anytime soon" or "but I want to do some other things first", etc. Because what a godly man would like to hear from a godly woman is that she would like to be a mother, and is willing to let it be when God wills it, and not try and force her own timetable on the issue.

As a Christian man, what really attracts me is when I encounter a young Christian woman who is willing to lay aside her personal plans for those God has in store for her (including marriage and children).

So, a good tip is to be pursuing the Lord and His will for your life with all your heart. Not in order to attract a man, but rather put that idea away and just submit to God because He is God. Keep an eye out, but let God be the center and your focus. Because sure as shootin', that Godly man is looking for a Christian woman who says (and MEANS), "Lord, not my will, but Yours be done."

J, that's cool. By Southwest, I thought you'd meant Arizona/Nevada/New Mexico (Arizona right here). I don't count Cali as being part of the Southwest. Cali is "The Left Coast" =p.

[94. Darin said the following at 9:31 AM on Mar 25:]

94

Betty, I think that as far as just "waiting on God" you have a very good point...especially where women are concerned. For us guys though, it's like asking God for a job and then laying on the couch and waiting for a knock at the door. I believe that we are co-laborers with Christ in that he presents us with opportunities...but we still have to search for those opportunities and act on them.

Caleb, that's good advice! I've found through that experience with God my own need for unconditional love decreases (because I've found the source)...and my need to share that love increases. (In other words, I don't need a relationship nearly as much for what I can "receive" as I need a relationship for what I can "give".)

As far as becoming "irresistible" to the opposite sex"...I don't think that I've quite attained that level yet. Ha! Ha!

One thing to remember here, God designed us for one thing: to give and receive love. And He gave us just two commandments to sum up all the rest: love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.

Therefore, feeling God's unconditional love is a tremendous (and critical) step toward our ultimate fulfillment. So is the aspect of giving and receiving love from other people.

For me (and many other readers here too I'm sure) the greatest frustration of being single is an unfulfilled desire to bring another human being into our own "Holy of Holies" and express that same unconditional love in similar manner to how God expresses it to us.

Well, I'd like to pontificate some more but I've got to finish getting ready for church. God bless!

[95. Mike Theemling said the following at 11:16 AM on Mar 25:]

95

After reading through all the comments again (I agree after the increased reader interest since The Line started and the sheer number of postings just in this thread, a forum should be seriously considered), I am reminded of a quote said by a very successful salesman:

"There are 2 reasons that a man (or woman) gives for his actions: One that sounds good and the REAL reason"

For example, Rich's story of the women who lamented "I'd go out with ANY Christian guy" only to get turned down in the same breath shows that isn't the REAL reason these ladies aren't going out on dates. The REAL reason was their idea of a qualified man was higher than most men in their peer group could attain.

J commented that "Although I'm no supermodel, I'm fairly attractive. And I couldn't get a date to save my life." If this were really the case, I have trouble believing that no guys in your group would be asking you out or showing obvious interest. As noted, physical appearance gives you the biggest advantage by far for garnering interest.

I suspect that part of the REAL reason is that again they do not meet your standards.

"There are about a dozen single guys in this group, but frankly, I just don't feel at ease with most of them. They don't seem to have any social awareness at all, and it's sad if they think behaving this way will attract a wife."

I'm not saying that the guy who screams at everyone or those that continually harasses you are those you should consider dating, but I'm curious: What about the other guys? Why aren't they qualified? What exactly makes them lack 'social awareness' to the extent that you wouldn't go out with ANY of them? I find it hard to believe that out of a dozen or so guys in your peer group ALL of them would be that bad.

And finally there was the post by Laura regarding finding a guy who was "financially unstable". Although I see her point, when the rubber hits the road I think that you and most people would hesitate to marry a guy whom you knew was a compulsive spender (that's how I interpret the word "unstable"). To the contrary, according to polls among single women (Christian and non-Christian) financial security is a big concern.

Xeres had a comment worth repeating. There seems to be this notion that marriage/finding someone is some mysterious process in which "it just happens". You put your trust in God and somehow *poof* you end up with a great mate.

It kind of reminds me what I learned in art class: The myth is that you either have the gift of art or your don't. Fact is that in art (I'll take drawing as an example) there are definite, defineable skills which ANYONE can learn (lines, shading, perspective, etc.) Sure, there is a part of art which is inspired and mystical, but for the most part it's just practicing a skill like carpentry or fishing.

This "let God do it for you and don't worry about it" attitude is reinforced by the soulmate idea. Yet I don't see this translated into other areas. If someone were to say, "I don't have a job. So rather than get my resume out, make connections, etc I'm just going to sit back and let God 'find a job for me'; one which His 'perfect' will" Most people would rightfully say that's a misrepresentation of how God works. But yet we use it as an aliby for relationships all the time.

DanL is a bit harsh, and I agree not properly representing the Boundless staff. However he does have a good point. Once again, it's the article/post which uses GIRLS as the victims and GUYS and the villans. I can't recall specifically a case where a posting/article started out like:

"Here's single guy X. He's well employed, a dedicated Christian, has no obvious red flags. He'd make a great husband and father and greatly desires to find a godly wife and mother. Yet despite his being involved with his single group and initiating with other women, he always seems to be overlooked and gets turned down constantly..."

There's this misconception that these types of men don't exist, or at least don't exist in church. Yet I know for a fact that that is a falsehood.

The DTR video entitled "The Circus Ring" chose to have the GUY be the gunshy one ("Danger Will Robinson, Danger") despite the fact that they shot two versions of the video with one having the girl not wanting to commit.

More later but I'm already late to something. Some things to chew on.

[96. Samuel PG said the following at 11:30 AM on Mar 25:]

96

J,
I can assure you that there are plenty of men out there who love God. There are clearly many just from reading this blog, but I also have many godly friends. I realize that doesn't help you, per se, but if they exist here in both Northern and Southern California they exist everywhere.

[97. Luke said the following at 12:53 PM on Mar 25:]

97

I am 26 and I have been accused of being too picky when I date different girls. However, I am now in a relationship with a wonderful and godly woman. I met her on the internet through a great website. She lives 10 hours away from where I live. We would have never have met by any other means. I am convinced that if I had not started online dating I would still be without a girlfriend and I would still be going out on dates with nice Christian girls who after one or two dates I would know that they weren't for me. I know many people are opposed to online dating and I understand that there are many problems with it. However, it greatly increased the amount of eligible women that I came into contact with and I believe that it is a way that God brings people together.

[98. Jake said the following at 1:20 PM on Mar 25:]

98

Here's something else I've been wanting to say for a while. Some of the comments have been critical, though not in an overly harsh way, of the men who say that we HAVE pursued women but have been turned down. "Stop complaining and just keep pursuing," they say. This response would be valid if we were here primarily to complain, but as one of those men, I don't feel that's what we're doing. Our refrain that we do pursue but have not met with success so far isn't offered here as a complaint, so much as a "rebuttal" to the assertion that we aren't pursuing.

It gets a bit frustrating to see pundits like Debbie Maken and the Boundless editors continually berating men for not pursuing when many of us are, so we feel compelled to offer ourselves as counterexamples. To me, however, that's only half of the equation--the flip side of the stereotype is even more frustrating: being told that there are scores of Christian women in every church yearning for marriage, eager to quit their jobs and raise children, and just longing for ANY Christian man to ask them out. It's kind of an extra slap in the face to us men who want to get married and have tried to some degree or another, to be told that there are plenty of good opportunities out there and that we're turning them down. The reason it's extra frustrating is that many of us WISH that were true, and feel that if it were, we'd probably be married by now! Again, the availability of single Christian women may vary by factors like geographical region and denomination, but from the vantage point of some of us, it's a bit like telling a starving man in the middle of a desert "what are you doing just standing there, while the fields are ripe for the harvest? Start picking and eating!"

So, our complaints aren't necessarily a plea for sympathy nor even a request for advice (though advice is welcome), they're more an attempt at refuting what we feel is an unfair portrait of the situation.

[99. Darin said the following at 1:30 PM on Mar 25:]

99

Samuel, that's an excellent point about the need to let go of resentment toward the opposite sex. As a guy, I've met a lot of women who I simply would not pursue because it seemed that they were carrying a chip on their shoulder...and I'm sure that the ladies could say the same thing about men.

I do have doubts, however, that the resentment is as bad as it sounds. Often times when a discussion starts off with one side getting blamed for everything, people get on the defensive and what sounds like resentment is really just people trying to make a point that there's plenty of blame to go around.

Nevertheless, good point...because undoubtedly there ARE people here with resentment.

[100. Gina said the following at 1:48 PM on Mar 25:]

100

BDB makes an excellent point about intellectual matches. This has been a tough one for me. I feel like I'm being a bit of a snob if I date only men who share my intellectual interests and are into books and ideas and so forth. On the other hand, when I don't -- well, I've gone on several dates with really nice guys with whom I had absolutely nothing to talk about. (And before I get blasted for that, I tried hard to find things to talk about. Asked questions and encouraged conversation about their work, their hobbies, their families, everything I could think of.) So if I try to keep the relationship going, I feel like I'm leading him on, and if I don't, I feel like I'm being mean and horrible to a perfectly nice guy.

Then again, I met an intellectual guy recently and (I thought) we were having some really interesting and thoughtful and fun conversations, and suddenly HE cut it off for no reason that I can figure out.

So, back to the old drawing board . . .