Friends While Single by Ted Slater on 03/30/2007 at 12:14 PM

In his article published yesterday, "Biblical Dating: Just Friends," Scott Croft identifies different types of friendship experienced by single adults. There's the type that unintentionally "invites confusion and frustration," and there's the type that's enjoyed within the "context of community."

He's not trying to pour cold water on the rich friendships singles can share, but rather bring clarity to an area that sometimes invites confusion and "delays the good."

What do you think? Have you experienced these two types of friendship? Are there other kinds of friendship?

I'd love to hear your comments, but request that before you press the "post" button you read what Scott wrote.

Friends While Single by Ted Slater on 03/30/2007 at 12:14 PM

In his article published yesterday, "Biblical Dating: Just Friends," Scott Croft identifies different types of friendship experienced by single adults. There's the type that unintentionally "invites confusion and frustration," and there's the type that's enjoyed within the "context of community."

He's not trying to pour cold water on the rich friendships singles can share, but rather bring clarity to an area that sometimes invites confusion and "delays the good."

What do you think? Have you experienced these two types of friendship? Are there other kinds of friendship?

I'd love to hear your comments, but request that before you press the "post" button you read what Scott wrote.

Comments

[1. Kelly said the following at 12:56 PM on Mar 30:]

1

I recently went through an experience where a male friend and I were "hanging out" in addition to relating to each other on spiritual and emotional levels. Needless to say, there was confusion and a lack of clarity as to what was developing. In the end this personal experience helped me to realize, seconded by Boundless and Carolyn McCulley (a virtual Titus 2 mentor http://solofemininity.blogs.com/), that I will not be "hanging out" as friends with a guy anymore. If he wants to get to know me better then he can ask me out on a date. Otherwise, my heart is not available for intimate friendships with a male outside of marriage. I do have guy friends and I have enjoyed their friendships as they have developed amidst a mixed group of my single friends.

Ladies, I believe our hearts are too valuable to be given out in pieces. Guard it and only share it with a man who sees it as worthy of pursuing as God intended.

And to you men, if you see us worthy of pursuing in this manner, then, by all means, go for it. You will gain so much respect from us.

[2. Aaron said the following at 1:05 PM on Mar 30:]

2

I definitely agree with what Scott said in his article. I am a little different from a lot of the guys I know in that I have never had an intimate friendship with a girl. I have plenty have female acquaintances, but no deep friendships. Moreover I have seen some of these female acquaintances suffer because they had a very close friendship with a guy and developed feelings for him that were not returned. Men and women were created for each other, that much is obvious. But they were created for marriage, and these intimate friendships simply serve to confuse both parties.

There is something related to this that I’ve been thinking about recently that occasionally I feel guilty for. Whenever I meet a single Christian girl, always in the back of my mind is the thought that if she proves to be mature and Godly, I should consider asking her out. This doesn’t mean that I go around asking everyone I meet on a date, as evidenced by the fact I’ve asked three girls out in my 22 years, but rather that I approach every new meeting with a mindset of possibility. I believe men and women were created to be together, and as I am single, I believe it’s my responsibility to have an attitude of potential towards the single Christian girls I know. Potential not of an intimate friendship, but one of marriage. My thoughts and actions are not dominated by this when I meet someone, but it is present. Sometimes I feel guilty and creepy for this, probably because it’s against the mainstream idea that girls and guys should just be good friends and wait and see if something happens. But I don’t apologize for it, I just must ensure it stays within the boundary of treating all of Christian females I interact with as sisters in Christ.

Any thoughts from some girls on whether or not you would prefer for guys to have this sort of attitude?

[3. sina said the following at 1:16 PM on Mar 30:]

3

I agree with his article 100%. I know there are some who don't agree because I've had many debates with my girlfriends about this. Perhaps this might be a weakness of mine. But I've experienced the heartbreak of falling for several guy friends. If we had not spent so much time alone perhaps I would not have 'fallen' for them. As a result, I find it hard to develop friendships with guys now because I'm still afraid that I'll keep falling for guys that I become close with.

[4. sina said the following at 1:29 PM on Mar 30:]

4

Aaron: I would rather guys have your attitude but only because I have had experience with heartbreak as a result of guy friendships. In the future I would appreciate a guy having this attitude at this point in my life.

[5. Blair said the following at 1:34 PM on Mar 30:]

5

I have a good friend who is suffering the consequences of a friendship with a guy that was plagued with lack of clear communication or defining of the relationship. It has created so much drama and heartache, I have definitely learned from her mistake.

[6. Michelle B said the following at 1:37 PM on Mar 30:]

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Aaron:

Paul said we are not to be conformed to the pattern the world holds to. You are in the right to treat Christian women as sisters and with all purity.

I have two sisters who are in their late teens/early 20's, and I being considerably older have had many opportunities to talk with them and their friends on this issue of close guy friends. I can tell you from my own experience and from what I have seen and heard from these younger girls is that it is VERY difficult if not flat out impossible for we ladies to remain unattached in a close friendship with a man. I know some girls say it's no big deal, but the evidence I have seen would indicate that those gals are lying to themselves.

Thanks for helping your sisters in Christ to maintain a whole and pure heart for their husbands by not encouraging close friendships with them.

[7. Ariana said the following at 1:42 PM on Mar 30:]

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Aaron, I don't think your attitude is that bad. There could be other things in it that you need to correct that you did not write about, but I don't think that approaching girls with the mindset of possibility is a bad thing. And actually, I have a similar attitude. Being a girl, I don't approach guys with the mindset that I could ask them out, but I do keep in mind that there is always a possibility there. And the consciousness of that possibility has kept my relationships pretty clear cut. I also have never had a close friend of the opposite sex, though I was very close to a couple of guy cousins of mine. Relationships with the opposite sex are valuable, but I think that good family relationships can be a good way of having them without creating a confusing situation.

Sometimes I think that I must be wierd or something, since this attitude is rare. But at the end of the day, I'm much happier with clearer boundary lines. And I've also found that this attitude helps me to draw clearer boundaries with guys who I actually am interested in, or who express interest in me.

[8. Laura said the following at 1:56 PM on Mar 30:]

8

Scott's article was helpful in distinguishing between having good friends of the opposite sex (in a communal context) as opposed to having one or more close friends of the opposite sex. I've had several close friendships with guys over the years and I have to agree that he's right that it's very, very difficult for both parties to consistently maintain the expectation that you'll be "just friends."

That said, I don't regret most of those relationships. I'm very thankful for the opportunity my close relationships with guy friends have given me to understand how men think. I don't have brothers, and it's been so good for me to get to know men in no-pressure relationships that are purely about friendship. These guys have encouraged me and helped to protect me from a couple of dating relationships that could have been bad. I think Scott's points are important, but I wonder if setting a kind of absolute standard (keeping opposite-sex friendships purely in a group context) veers towards being a little legalistic.

[9. Kristine said the following at 1:58 PM on Mar 30:]

9

I went through an experience, similar to what Kelly described and have learned the hard way. It is very difficult for guys and girls to be intimate friends without someone getting hurt. I agree with her comments- if a guy would like to know me better, he can ask me out.

[10. Kryistala said the following at 2:56 PM on Mar 30:]

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Aaron,
Thank you!!! Yes this is a good attitude to have!! It is very nice to know that at least some guys are thinking of this. I agree with Ariana about keeping the possibility in the back of my mind as well.
I don’t know that I agree 100% with not having good friends that are guys, because growing up I did not relate to the girls. All they wanted to talk about was clothes, makeup, hair, and which guys were the cutest (keep in mind this was in grade school and junior high). I had no interest in that at all at the time. I just wanted to play and have fun. As adults though we think differently and things are not the same. So there is lots of room for friendship, but not the one on one friendship I enjoyed as a child. I know my heart and that I would start to think some thing was there that was not. So perhaps I do agree in my own way…….

[11. anonymous said the following at 3:04 PM on Mar 30:]

11

I pretty much agree with what the article said. I can certainly say that if I'd known what I know now on this subject that I would have done some things differently.

In my case, I was trying to be friends with a young lady who had been hurt in a relationship before and was afraid of committment. At the same time she needed a man to affirm her and make her feel secure.

Well, I really liked her and thought to myself, "What she needs is someone like me to win back her trust; someone to show her the kind of loyalty and honor that a man is supposed to demonstrate." (Guys, I caution you DON'T TRY THIS. Only God can heal a woman's heart and restore her trust.)

To make a long story short, by always being there for her I took away her incentive to commit; her respect for me decreased (because I had basically thrown myself down as a doormat); and I started to feel resentment over being used and taken for granted.

Had I maintained my dignity by walking away I would have been doing both her and myself a big favor. Plus in time our relationship might very well have worked out.

Once again, I point out to Boundless that guys aren't the only ones afraid to commit. Also, how about some articles for women on letting go of hurts from past relationships.

[12. James said the following at 3:19 PM on Mar 30:]

12

Kelly said, "Ladies, I believe our hearts are too valuable to be given out in pieces. Guard it and only share it with a man who sees it as worthy of pursuing as God intended."

It is a statement which I heartilly agree with, and from the guy's point, here's why:

Even when I as a guy want to hang out with a girl and develop a close friendship with her, if she doesn't want to date me, but we pursue a close personal friendship anyway, then when I start to develop feelings for her (this is what USUALLY happens), I'm in for a big heart crash when I finally DO ask her out.

So girls, by being guarded with your hearts in this manner, you also are helping protect the hearts of those same guys.

And guys, same goes for US!

[13. sina said the following at 3:21 PM on Mar 30:]

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anonymous: I agree, there should be more articles about getting over past hurts for women (and men too that struggle). Before I was saved I had a few awful experiences with the opposite sex and then when I got saved I thought I left that behind (which I did for the most part) but then each Christian single guy has turned out to act the same way (proof that we are all sinners saved by grace!). Anyway, I still deal with stuff sometimes especially when a new guy tries to get to know me. I sort of get reserved so I don't get hurt again like for the 10th time! LOL!

[14. Darin said the following at 3:59 PM on Mar 30:]

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A word to the ladies: While I agree that it's the man's responsibility to define the relationship and to not string you along or use you to satisfy his need for companionship (without a committment), you've got to realize that there are guys out there who WILL DO THAT if you let them. (It's not right...but unfortunately it's often a reality.)

The good news is that you don't have to tolerate it. If a guy asks you out somewhere one-on-one but doesn't define his intentions you have every right to tell him, "I've made the decision not to go out with guys one-on-one unless I know their intentions."

I agree; you shouldn't have to do that. But isn't it better than being strung along and used? Set standards for yourself and hold guys to it.

[15. Jethro said the following at 4:52 PM on Mar 30:]

15

Wow, I think I am in almost the opposite situation to some people here, especially Aaron.

As a male, the majority of my close friendships are actually with females. Now yes, it is definitely possible that in this situation one, or both, of you may become attracted to the other. I can also tell you that it is definitely possible for a male and a female to become and remain great friends without this ever happening.

A general observation: I find it interesting when people say they don't form close friendships with members of the opposite sex in order to avoid falling for them and 'giving away a piece of their heart'. Really, what is that attitude? Do these people also avoid traveling in cars in order to avoid crashing? Or never drink soda in order to avoid high blood sugar levels and diabetes?

Life is nothing but the sum of our experiences. If you avoid friendships to 'protect your heart' you may end up with a heart that's not worth protecting....

[16. Aaron said the following at 5:44 PM on Mar 30:]

16

Thanks all who commented on my question. It’s encouraging.

Jethro, do you have that attitude that you should drive 150 around sharp turns because it’s more fun? Or stand in the middle of a busy street to laugh as people swerve to miss you? No, because you’re guaranteed to end up in a tree and under a car.

I have girls who I consider my friends, but we are not confidants. Jumping out of a plane without a parachute might be more fun on the way down, but the in the end the one with the parachute is going to have a better experience.

[17. DS said the following at 7:13 PM on Mar 30:]

17

I would like to address a point which I believe has been construed, and carried on in a skewed manner.

I continue to read about and listen to women who explain their adamant stance of waiting for a guy who will pursue them. NOTE: Re-read the first comment attached to this article's blog,

"Ladies, I believe our hearts are too valuable to be given out in pieces. Guard it and only share it with a man who sees it as worthy of pursuing as God intended."

In all honesty, this sounds nice and valiant for both parties, but it's fundamentally incorrect. Romantic relationships aren't about the pursuit of one-another. Rightly understood, they are about a joint-pursuit of God's heart, that is, fellowship. As noted in many articles before, a question to ask yourself when viewing a potential romantic relationship in biblical understanding is, "Do I serve /seek God with more of my all within this relationship or by myself." The place at which you grow in Christ more is of most importance (Still, be gentle and act in love). God didn't create you for another person, He created you for Himself, and in romantic relationships that other person gets to enjoy a uniquely intimate fellowship with you, likened unto God's relationship with us and His own fellowship within the Trinity.

(NOTE: Kelly, it's obvious that I am writing this from an imperfect understanding of your understanding, and so I apologize if I interpreted your comment incorrectly, but the seemingly widespread, glamorized, idea that men and women are made for each other, even if it appears virtuous, is dangerous.)

[18. Jamie said the following at 7:30 PM on Mar 30:]

18

I completely agree with this article. I wonder how to handle situations in which the relationship starts out and develops in community but because of timing or distance (someone moves or the community is only physically close for a limited time, i.e. mission trip) but then continues over distance. In my experience, the use of phone and email is nearly always just between the two people and lends an air of isolation even if it is not intended by either party.

Is it possible to continue a relationship without interest from one side or the other in the natural isolation of distance?

[19. Kari said the following at 7:54 PM on Mar 30:]

19

I have never actually seen this happen. I am the close female confidante of many good men (about 8); they come to me for consolation, advice, the highs and lows of life, to get a new perspective. We hang out, often one-on-one or in groups of three or four. I love them dearly. Some are very godly men. Some are even single and cute. I wouldn't date any of them. None of them would date me. We have close relationships where I am often the only girl in that circle of their three most immediate friends, but the clarity of intention is striking. The direction I am taking my life is different from the ones they are going; our closeness enables to see each other honestly, and also to assess with honesty our lack of compatability as romantic partners, too.

What I have seen happen in my life over and over instead is that a person who doesn't know me especially well gets interested in me based on a couple of short social interactions, tries to imitate these other close relationships, fails either to initiate that closness or my interest, and gives up feeling frustrated they never "had a chance" with me. (They didn't, we'll be honest.) The worst mistake I ever made was trying to date a guy I didn't know very well. It ended messily and with both our hearts strewn in pieces.

I'd much rather risk one of my close friendships changing shape and knowing I am certain in the character and heart of my true friends than blunder again and again through commitments to guys I hardly know. Knowing the hearts and minds of these men who are my friends has taught me a lot about relating to men, being friends with men, and what I know will enable me to push towards a strong marriage if those opportunities come along.

[20. Adam said the following at 10:41 PM on Mar 30:]

20

Aaron,

You said:
Jethro, do you have that attitude that you should drive 150 around sharp turns because it’s more fun? Or stand in the middle of a busy street to laugh as people swerve to miss you? No, because you’re guaranteed to end up in a tree and under a car.

Since when does having a close relationship with the opposite sex GUARANTEE that you will end up hurt? I would say that there is just as much of a chance that you will end up hurt in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex, as you will with someone of the same sex.

Again, we have to come back to this unacceptible ethical mistake that it is somehow your environment [who you are friends with] that causes you to sin. Jesus himself said that it is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what comes out. James says that we sin because of our own evil lusts.

As far as the article goes, I found the biblical arguments very unconvincing. When you have to describe your best text as a "broad (but sound) implication," I would say that you are already walking on thin ice. Secondly, I would wonder how it can be a sound implication when it totally violates Paul's context. Paul is not addressing confidant intimacy at all. He is addressing sanctification, and abstinance from sexual immorality. The "defrauding" here refers back to illicit sexual intercourse. The Greek term porneia is clearly used back in verse 3, and the term "passionate lust" in verse 5 strengthens this interpretation. Nowhere do these words refer to any type of psychological confidance.

The other verses used just simply beg the question. The author admits that they only thing they teach is that we must love others, not harm our neighbor, favor weaker brothers, and encourage them. However, then he makes a huge leap in logic and concludes that confidal relationships with the opposite sex don't do these things. That is a huge leap, and one that must be proven.

The only real attempt to do that is to appeal to the author's experience. However, does "it is my experience that" translate into "it is always, or even mostly the case that?" Obviously not.

Worse than that, we cannot just say things are wrong for the sake of expediency. In other words, we cannot just say things are wrong because it would help us in our cultural situation. A brother on another blog posted and interesting quote from Dr. John Murray, and I think it is relevant here as well:

"On certain details of life and behavior the Lord has not bound us by law to one course of action rather than another. If we follow one course rather than the other we have not sinned, because we have not transgressed law...There is always the tendency to invest with the sanction of law certain courses of action which considerations of expediency may dictate. Consequently, courses of action against which there is no law are liable to be branded as wrong because they contravene the prescriptions of expediency. Expediency knows no law, and when expediency is erected into law the sphere of liberty is invaded and confusion of conscience results. It is a distinction of similar import that the apostle makes in this chapter" -"Principles of Conduct", pg71 (year 1957).

I expecially like Murray's statement that "expediency knows no law." In other words, we cannot make what we see in our own experience crutial to our definition of what is right and wrong, because such thinking knows no law.

All in all, I *do* think the hurt in relationships needs to stop. On that we can all agree. However, the way to do that is to train people to be obedient to God's law, and not to give them some other command that is based on the expediency of the situation. Only when people desire to be obedient to God's commands will the hurt ever stop.

[21. Felicity said the following at 11:07 PM on Mar 30:]

21

I am in the midst of one of these 'relationships.' I've always been a friend to my male buddies, but this one friend has gotten too close. I've always prided myself on not falling for my friends, but I have failed miserably this time. I see that I made the mistake of becoming emotionally involved. I now see that when I was friends with males before they were purposeful friendships: With one we'd watch our favorite baseball team, and with another we'd enjoy hiking and other outdoor activities. The conversation never dug too deep. Now, I've fallen for what has become my best friend and his heart belongs to another (lucky) girl. I don't want to drop our friendship like yesterday's news, but really...I see no alternative. I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced this and would have any tips...

[22. BDB said the following at 11:47 PM on Mar 30:]

22

I think that Kari says it better than I could. I will grant you that for a close male-female friendship to last after one of them gets married to someone else, the other party will need to truly relinquish any romantic hopes. Once that happens, though, a friendship is very possible. And as someone who took a girl to the high-school prom that I barely knew, Kari is very right that it's better to know people better through friendship. It helps so much - especially by developing a track record of conflict resolution with that person without the added pressure of "dating."

The pain and embarassment associated with male-female "buddy" relationships sounds like garden-variety unrequited love. That's not exactly a new problem. Try reading a few Jane Austen novels if you don't believe me. Saying that men and women shouldn't be friends will not magically eliminate unrequited love.

So, on a practical basis, if you're the one feeling it, set a time limit. If your feelings don't fade after six months, and they don't initiate, make a decision. Men who don't read this blog may never have heard of the concept of men initiating. You can always give them a copy of Passion and Purity and see what they do. If they disappear, you have your answer, and you only "wasted" six months. (OK, I only tried this once, and she didn't read the book, but she didn't run away either.)

Just don't wait around for five years.

[23. Leah T said the following at 1:09 AM on Mar 31:]

23

I've had at least one 'friendship' that resembled an actual relationship so much that people thought we were really dating (People as in most of our church, including his parents!). The truth is, we were never romantically involved and we were always honest with one another about that; and while that is a good thing, the fact that our emotional attachment was so deep that it made our "clear communications" more ambiguious than not was a very, very bad thing. We had, without intending to, filled a role in eachother's lives that should only exist between a man and a woman within the context of marriage. Please understand, I am happy beyond words for this friend (who was recently married to another girl) and I feel so honored to share in the joy that he's found. But he hurt me. Again, it was unintentional, but it did happen. He found someone to officially take on the role that I had only been filling in for - and what a blessing that was - and I was left with a gap in my life in the place where he had been. We are good friends still, but there is no longer that dependency or that intimacy - neither of us is acting as the 'temporary fix' for the loneliness of the other.

A little over a year ago, I started to become really convicted about this particular friendship and the extent of our involvement in each other's lives. While I loved my friend, and love him still, I understood that there would be a point when he wasn't the most important guy in my life, and I wasn't the most important girl in his. Furthermore, there really isn't an appropriate runner-up position. "The girl I'm closest to in all the world, aside from my wife" just sounds lame to say the least. I pulled away and as a result, he developed the relationship which is now his marriage.

So now I'm embarking on a new friendship pattern -- one where I'm spending less one-on-one time with single guys and more community time with a larger group of friends. Right now, I'm finding that a little strange, if only because I've always been close with guys and for the past twelve years have had a male "best friend". It makes sense though. I've been very carefull in romantic relationships to guard my heart and am in fact extremely jealouse, for my future husband's sake, of the few peices I have given out in the past. So why set up "friendships" where the probability of developing unwarranted emotional attachment is so high? It's just not necessary. Not when it is possible to enjoy fulfilling friendships within the proper context.

[24. Ting said the following at 1:35 AM on Mar 31:]

24

I think Scott hits the nail on the head with this one, especially when it comes to enjoying the convenient and delaying the good. I have a few friends who have a lot of opposite gender friends than same gender friends ( who hang out one on one ).

And when I ask them about this, they all say the same thing. The guy would say "It's easier to talk to girls because they open up more." The girl would say "It's easier to hang out with guys because they are not that complicated." As Paul reminds us "Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial"

Frankly I have had opposite gender friends whom I have spent one on one time with. Looking back at it, I think it was a mistake to connect emotionally without the commitment of a romantic relationship intent on marriage. I must admit and agree with my friend that yes, it was easier to talk with girls (for w/e reason, nicer, willing to listen, etc.)but it doesn't necessarily justify the action. What's easier isn't always right. We often talk of sexual purity in Christian circles but what about emotional purity? I think it does cheapen the marriage altar a bit when you share your heart so many times (with opposite gender) it does make one wonder what makes marriage so special.

Practically speaking I think it would be healthy and wise for both genders to build more same gender friendships.
Once your opposite gender friend ties the knot or vice versa, the only people you should hang out with are your same gender friends anyways.

I don't think the contents or the conclusion of Scott's article is legalistic. In fact its very countercultural and I'm surprised not more people have rejected it more outrightly.

As we know, anything not mentioned in Scripture is left for conscience. In terms of dating/romance Scripture is definitely not explicit on it. But the principles drawn from Scripture (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8, 1 Corinthians 6:12) would seem to indicate spending one on one time with opposite gender (without the intent of dating for marriage) is a bad idea.

[25. Daniel Pennant said the following at 2:44 AM on Mar 31:]

25

I definitely agree with what Scott said in his article.In my experience, the use of phone and email is nearly always just between the two people and lends an air of isolation even if it is not intended by either party.
So when are single ,make some male or female friends is good.

[26. Jen said the following at 7:17 AM on Mar 31:]

26

Jamie- i too wonder about that question! I met a guy last summer, and after only knowing him for a couple weeks, he went back to the other side of the coutnry for school. We have kept in touch since last September via email and instant messenger, and over the Christmas break I admitted to him that I liked him as more than a friend... he moved back, now we still keep in touch but I know he is not ready to be in a relationship and expressed this to me, and that he didnt know if it would ever happen with us... which breaks my heart... Its a mesy situation, and I think its the kind of thing that will inevitably happen if guys and girls keep in touch long distance, with not a long base of friendship beforehand..

[27. Leah said the following at 7:44 AM on Mar 31:]

27

I'm still a bit lost as to what Boundless or Scott is calling an intimate friendship... :S

Like, I don't really have problems with being what I'd call "good friends" with a guy outside of a relationship. But I was never one to hang out with a particular guy 1 on 1 outside of a relationship (except a stupid high school fling type thing :P).

When it comes to *real* 'close friendships' with guys (not like the teenage fling thing described above), I had/have what I'd call "good friends" who are guys like I said before. I will hug them in greeting, have decent-lengthed conversations with them and them only (either online, or in a room though there may be plenty of other people in the room) etc. There is one particular guy who shares his "girl problems" with me and I give him advice etc about that. Does this constitute an 'intimate friendship'? I mean, I'm in a relationship with a great Christian guy, and have these "good friendships" outside that- sharing nowhere near the closeness me and my boyfriend share. We have 1 on 1 conversations and share things you wouldn't share with just anybody, but it's nowhere near the intimacy involved in an actual relationship. I don't see a problem with this, but feel like it may be what Boundless or Scott looks on as an 'intimate friendship'.

If that is the case, then I don't think, as a blanket statement, that intimate friendships are wrong. It's when you start having regular 1 on 1 (alone) conversations/meetings with a guy, help each other out (like with uni work or travel) regularly that questions might be warranted. (Note I'm not saying helping out someone of the other sex in this way is wrong- it's only when it's occurring between the two of you regularly.) And I think it's important to view these things together. Ie. a guy and girl who do their homework together might be perfectly fine. A guy who regularly gives a girl a lift to uni because he lives around the corner from her might be fine. But it's when the same guy is giving the same girl help with her homework...and lifts to various places... and have coffee together in breaks at uni... and... I think you get the point.

Ok I know that was long and a bit repetitive but it's late and that's the way my thinking is going at the moment :P I hope you see what I'm saying- that I think a certain degree of closeness is fine, and it really depends on what constitutes an 'intimate friendship'.

[28. Kari said the following at 9:46 AM on Mar 31:]

28

Ting, I disagree with you on a lot of points, but I'm frankly baffled by what you mean by this: "Once your opposite gender friend ties the knot or vice versa, the only people you should hang out with are your same gender friends anyways."

Watching the example of my own parents, who are deeply godly people, my parents have dear friends of both sexes, especially with other married couples. My parents have been going strong 31 years, it has been a privilege and a joy for me to see my parents act out godly friendships of support and accoutability both with single and with married friends both male and female. People would have to be very, very rediculous, to hold out hope for love when dealing with godly married couples.

I think a great deal of my thoughts on this matter come from C.S. Lewis' right observations in The Four Loves that romance or eros is a pervision of true friendship (I'll sum up, the quote itself is long); metaphorically speaking, friends do not look at each other but towards a similar object of interest, their interest in each other is not in "friendship" as a goal but in sharing the things they both love or find valuable. They are compared to travellers on the same journey. Lovers look at each other. If two friends are too involved in looking at each other to be heading towards a shared "destination", they don't really meet my definition of friendship anyway - yes, then, that is a defrauded love.

[29. Rebekah said the following at 10:37 AM on Mar 31:]

29

Felicity: I too, have been in your situation. It was one of the most painful times in my life. It hurts to know that the man you have fallen for will never return your feelings. While it seems harsh and unkind, I really believe the best thing to do is to completely let go of your friendship with this guy. I have found (in my experience anyway) that the only way to really get over someone is to drop all communication with them. I have also found that time and prayer and the best healers for situations such as these. Don't be afraid to take that step and let go...you are only prolonging your hurt if you don't. I commend you on being wise enough to see that the hardest thing to do (letting go of the friendship) is also most likely the best thing to do.

All of this is just my opinion, and comes from what I have experienced in my own life. Just remember Jeremiah 29:11...God has plans of good things for your life, and not of harm.

[30. Ting said the following at 11:22 AM on Mar 31:]

30

Kari, to clarify, I meant that once a person is married, it would be very unwise for him or her to hang out 'one on one' with the opposite gender. I'm all in favor of cross gender friendships in the context of groups as Scott wrote, but especially when one is married. I guess the married couple would have to discuss that between themselves on what kind of friendships is allowed once they are married.

As Scott pointed out, no where in Scripture do we have examples of opposite gender friendships. Nor do we have any commandment that explicitly prohibits it. This goes back to an issue of conscience, where one persons conscience may allow certain things and another's may not.

[31. Anne said the following at 12:16 PM on Mar 31:]

31

Felicity,

I like Rebekah have been down this road and I concure with her advise. I would strongly recomend cutting off all contact with him, not just for your sake but for his. And even if you feel like your feelings for him have faded, don't allow the relationship to pick up agein. I did and had to go through the whole mess of breaking it off a second time.

I also want to warn you, he will not like it. Just as he is important to you, you are important to him, even if he doesn't want to date you. He is loosing someone he is very close to and he will likely fight to keep that relationship. Prepare yourself for comments such as "I just want to be your friend" and "Why are you doing this?" and "I thought you were better than this"

Yes it will hurt, and if your like me there wont be a best friend to catch you, because he was the best friend. But I promise, there will be light at the end of the tunnel, and God is faithful. I grew so much closer to Him during this time in my life.

Jethero,

As much as your intentions may be pure, odds are you will unwittingly do this to one of your "many" girl buddies. After reading many of your posts on boundless it seems that I will not be able to convince you to change your potentially distructive bahavior, so let me at least ask you this: If a girl ever comes to you to end a friendship as Felicity is about to do, please let her go nicely. Do not fight her or try to keep the friendship going. If you cared about her at all, just let her go.

[32. Darin said the following at 2:17 PM on Mar 31:]

32

Leah, I think you have an excellent point concerning the ambiguity of what constitutes an "intimate" friendship. It all seems pretty subjective to me.

For example, in some parts of the country greeting someone with a hug means nothing more than a handshake...where in other parts of the country it would be considered a strong romantic gesture.

I think that BDB makes a good point too that eliminating opposite sex friendships isn't in itself going to solve the problems. For example, suppose that we were able to completely eliminate opposite sex friendships. In a few years, Boundless would be writing articles about weather or not it's acceptable for us to smile at each other across the room.

So, while I agree with Scott in principle; I think that we need to steer clear of trying to define an "intimate" friendship by a list of behaviors. Behaviors can serve as warning signs that we need to take an inventory of our feelings (and for us guys it's a sign that we need to define the relationship and take an inventory of the other person's feelings) but ultimately it's all a matter of perspective.

This leads me to my point that the ultimate responsibility for a person's feelings lies with himself/herself. This shouldn't take anything away from the responsibility that we have to each other in that regard. I just think that far too often people fail to see their own role in getting hurt, thus they remain vulnerable to it happening again. It also causes bitterness and delays healing when we can't see our own role in the situation.

[33. Darin said the following at 3:03 PM on Mar 31:]

33

Jamie, I've experienced exactly the situation that you mentioned (i.e. an opposite sex friend moves away and the only way to communicate is one-on-one via phone or e-mail). In my experience we kept our e-mails to just once every two or three weeks and everything was fine. Ultimately though I think that it simply all boils down to how you feel toward that person and how they feel toward you. (And how well defined the relationship is.)

[34. Charles H. said the following at 3:33 PM on Mar 31:]

34

I think the most important thing for these relationships is for people to be honest, first and foremost with themselves. Why? Because no matter how much you want to be honest with other people, you can't until you're honest with yourself about how you feel.

I have good friends who are men, and good friends who are women. If I am doing something with a female friend, and concerned that she might infer an interest I don't actually have, I try to clarify in some respectful way what my intentions are. My typical litmus test is whether what I'm doing would be inappropriate if she were married -- things like one-on-one dates. In this regard I think Scott would agree with me.

I do, however, think we have to be careful when comparing a deep emotional bond with a sexual one. While I agree that married people should reserve that kind of bond with the opposite sex for each other, simply because it can otherwise lead to unfaithfulness, I think the comparison breaks down beyond there. After all, there's nothing wrong with having an emotionally close friendship with someone of the same sex; in fact, that's what Scott appears to argue for. If the relationship were a physical one, this would of course be inappropriate. That in itself shows the difference between an emotional and physical bond, and why we must be careful when attempting to equate the two.

As for the notion that friendships will deepen, sometimes become romantic, etc... yes, this can sometimes be painful when the feeling isn't mutual, but it also leads to an awful lot of marriages. Again, honesty is key.

[35. Christine said the following at 4:00 PM on Mar 31:]

35

If I had read this several years ago, I would have been outraged and would have commented on the number of male friends that I had and how great they were, etc. Now, looking back, I was too close to some of them and as a result, one of us got hurt - sometimes me and sometimes the guy.

From experience, I do know that it is completely possible for two people of the opposite sex to be good friends and it be completely void of defrauded love. But, also from experience, I think that that is the exception rather than the rule.

I do still have guy friends and I am willing to go on a walk, stop for coffee, etc. with a guy whom I consider a friend, but I won't let those friendships become so emotionally entangling. When I need a guy's opinion, I call my dad, my brother or one of my cousins. These are the men in my life that I CAN safely lean out without the relationship being inappropriately emotional.

I for one am not interested in being a man's buddy. I'm tired of being the "sister" - I want to be someone's wife.

[36. Bethany said the following at 4:14 PM on Mar 31:]

36

I fully agree with Scott's take on this. I tried to get a guy I used to go out with to understand that having a lot of close female friends was a bad idea all around. For one, he was leading them on, since women tend to think spending more one-on-one time with a guy means he's interested. And secondly, it doesn't make sense to have close friends of the opposite sex that you're not pursuing romantically because you'll have to drop them when you get married. It is most definitely inappropriate to have a close friend of the opposite sex that you spend time with one-on-one when you're married, so why should it be any different when you're single? They should remain one of your many friends that you see and hang out with as a group, or you should be pursuing a more serious commitment.

[37. Alina said the following at 6:06 PM on Mar 31:]

37

I can understand the point of view and I've had gotten hurt by close friendships and mix signals before, but I still have close friendships with guys that have been a huge blessing from God. Do thoughts of potential marriage material come into our heads...yeah sometimes. I think the difference from my close friendships with guys now and those in the past are three things. 1. Our relationship with God comes before all things, 2. Day to day we ask ourselves how are we showing the love of Christ to each other, and 3. 100% honesty in communication up front. We tell it like it is - sometimes it's not fun but consistant genuine communication is really important. Whether or not something else comes out of a close friendship is all God's doing.

It's hard and we screw up, but we always put the relationship in God's hands and trust Him because in every relationship between strangers, friends, siblings, parents and children, spouses there is always a third party - God. When you remember that and when you put trust in his plan - great blessings happen.

Now I could be a fluke and it's not that I haven't been hurt by having close guy friends. And maybe that my being the only girl in a family full of boys has given me a different mindset (my best friend is my baby brother). I do believe that men and women need to be careful with each other because we are made for each other on a very intimate level and without God's presence in our relationships - we're going to crash and burn. I also believe that God can bless guy/girl friendship as long as the it glorifies Him. As far as the arguement of how the assumed person your supposed to get married reacts to these friendships..God will work that out too (but again all relationships should glorify God).

[38. Melissa said the following at 8:34 PM on Mar 31:]

38

All I can say, is that I used to be one to think that I could be in close friendship situations with guys, so I had a couple of VERY good guy friends. We got exceptionally close and that relationship led to intimate feelings on both our parts. We were afraid of risking our friendship so neither of us was going to pursue anything beyond it, but to make a long story short, that didn't last long. We ended up in a 'defined' sort-of-dating situation. (Definition meaning that we aknowledged our feelings for each other).
For various reasons, that relationship was not one that would work, or could have the possibility of marriage as an outcome. The outcome was that I subconsciously gave my heart away through the emotional intimacy of this friendship, and am on the other side with a broken heart and a lot of emotional recovery to face.
I see both sides of the coin from these posts, but as someone who's been on both sides of the coin, I can't be in intimate relationships with guys unless it's in a defined dating/courtship setting.
Now, I'm not saying that I don't have guy friends, (I have many whom I respect and love dearly) but these relationships are largely in a community sense, and these guys don't have an "in-road" to my life/struggles/etc.
Jethro: I don't doubt your impartiality in your friendships with those girls, but I would encourage you to guard their hearts and emotions with a very conscious effort. We, (at least in my female experiences,) have very fragile hearts, and in all honesty we crave that male emotional intimacy almost more than the physical or even spiritual intimacy more characteristic of a defined male-female dating relationship. Sometimes we don't realize the depth of our emotional dependence on those 'friendships' until it's too late.

[39. BDB said the following at 9:42 PM on Mar 31:]

39

Kari - I will say that C.S. Lewis has influenced my thoughts on this topic, particularly the chapter on Friendship in "The 4 Loves." Indeed, friends with a common goal remain my friends decades later - and like Lewis suggested, they married similar people and their spouses are now friends. The circle expanded. This worked very well with friends who have the same passion for volunteering that I do.

On the other hand, if you're spending 10-20 hours alone with someone each week - and at least one of you doesn't think you're dating - it will end in tears.

I suppose it's an ancient Klingon proverb that tells us "Rejection is a dish best served cold." If you sever a relationship all at once, that's how it will come across. Besides, if you're interested in him and he HAS read some of Elisabeth Elliot's books, he'll assume that when you decline all his invitations you're not interested. (I'm starting to confuse myself now.)

But there is an old etiquette suggestion called "distancing." If you pull back to, say 1-2 hours a week, tops, and limit the subject matter to specific areas like work or church or calculus homework, it will affect you a lot less, and you're not investing enough time to be a real intimate confidante. Don't help him figure out his girlfriend. You can even say something like, "I don't want people to avoid asking me out because they think we're together." Lunch or coffee once a week is plenty for "just friends." Then he can make a decision. You're drawing a boundary line, not rejecting the person. And I've read several biographies of men who didn't get off the dime until the woman forced him to make a decision. Try Colin Powell's and read about what pushed him to propose.

I was trying to decide whether to bring this topic up, but hey, I'm feeling adventurous. One thing I haven't noticed any Evangelical Christian writing on the topic of how to approach a situation where a woman you're interested is in a quasi-relationship with some guy that is clearly going nowhere. Now, I know that the "Wild at Heart" crowd would just say to barge right in - if a man wants a woman to himself he needs to propose. But I'll bet that topic would get some good comments going, too...

[40. BDB said the following at 10:00 PM on Mar 31:]

40

What the heck, I'll share a true story.

When I was a freshman in college, I woman I just met told me that she didn't believe in "dating." She then immediately asked me if I wanted to go to dinner.

"Now?" "Yes, now."

"But, I don't have any money with me." "I'll pay."

We went to Sizzler. She drove, she paid, I had a great time.

And I came to realize that a lot of women said they "don't date" in their first conversation with someone in order to preclude someone from pressuring them into a physical relationship. It did scare those kinds of guys off. So, if you're going to eliminate frienship also, it's going to be even more difficult for people to get to know each other.

That's my $.02

[41. Ariana said the following at 10:09 PM on Mar 31:]

41

BDB,

About barging in on a "quasi-relationship that is obviously going nowhere." You would probably need to be very sure about the nature of the relationship and that the girl actually is dissatisfied...though if she is, she probably shouldn't be sharing that with you. Anyway, there's a risk of seeming disrespectful if this is a relationship that she genuinely cares about. However (though I've never seen or experienced this), I could see myself at least being at least somewhat receptive to another guy who very clearly expressed what he was thinking, what he saw in that relationship (he doesn't treat you right, etc.), and what he wanted. But he had better really want something.

And as far as thinking that "If a man wants a woman to himself he has to propose," I think that's very true. Elisabeth Eliot has a quote which basically asks why a young woman would give her undivided time and energy to a man who had not made any permanent committment to it. But anyway...

[42. Felicity said the following at 10:11 PM on Mar 31:]

42

Anne:
You are right. He has told me that "we're just friends; we're doing nothing wrong." He is getting married in a matter of days and I have told him that our daily phone calls, emails, etc. must end to honor their marriage and my sanity. He's not getting it. I told him that I will not continue a close friendship with another woman's husband. He thinks I'm silly; I think I'm right.

Thanks to everyone for their advice.

[43. BDB said the following at 12:36 AM on Apr 1:]

43

Felicity:

I concur with Anne and Rebekah.

If he's getting married in a few days, he shouldn't be calling you every day. My female friends who stayed friends pretty much disappeared for weeks at a time in the months leading up to their weddings.

The ONLY exception I can think of is if you're a bridesmaid and/or you're organizing part of their wedding or reception, in which case the bride would be calling you every day.

[44. Ellie said the following at 7:47 AM on Apr 1:]

44

First of all, I appreciate what Aaron said, and second Ariana's response. There is that element of possibility, and I don't think it's necessarily creepy or weird to recognize that. If it became a preoccupation, or was part of desperation, then it might need to be worked on, but (in my humble, and often wrong) opinion, it's normal to consider, especially prayerfully.

If anyone wanted to respond with some advice, I'd really appreciate it. I had (have) a friendship like the ones described. It started with the guy calling me when I came home from college for the summer for group get-togethers, where, mysteriously, no one else materialized. Then came the understanding, verbalized on his part, that whenever I wasn't at work, we would get together. We watched movies, hiked, went to the mall....I wasn't comfortable with this without some iota of clarification. Were we dating? DTR, bitte! Believing in guy initiation, I didn't want to, or think it was my place to, start one. But I didn't know what to do. And I really didn't want to be mean or rude or anything - I care for him as a Christian brother, as a basic human being, after all. I didn't (don't) know how to "kindly" reject. So I kind of just went along with it. After some prayer and soul-searching, I realized for sure that I didn't want to date this fellow. After 6 weeks of zero clarity and this awkward relationship, it was time for me to go back to school, and I thought that that might be enough to cut it off. It wasn't. He backed off for a while, then went full speed ahead at Christmas. I turned him down several times, citing various reasons (doing things with the fam, girls' night with my best friend, etc.), unless it really was a group gathering. I gave in once - he asked me to dinner and a movie. I said yes to dinner, mind made up that I was going to have to tell him that I couldn't continue this way. And then....I didn't have the guts for it. But through the course of the evening (my vague replies to what my post-college plans were, paying my half of the bill, etc.), I thought he got it. For a few days, nothing. Then he called again. I was leaving town for school, and (again) that was my out. Now he's emailing again. All this without having been "officially" asked out, under the terms of friendship. But it's become apparent to me and to mutual friends that he thinks of it, or wants it to be, more, despite the lack of relationship-defining talk.

That was a long-winded background, but there it be. If anyone had any thoughts on how I should proceed, kindly, gently, and as his Christian sister, I'd sure appreciate it.

[45. Leah said the following at 8:23 AM on Apr 1:]

45

Ariana,

If a girl is in a quasi-relationship and she 'genuinely cares' about it, she still needs to be shaken out of it. Quasi-relationships are no-nos, no matter how you come to the realisation that you are in one (whether it's taking a DTR test, or having someone else barge in on you, or whatever). If a guy were to barge in on that relationship, what has she lost? A relationship that wasn't getting her anywhere? Besides, it's not saying her and the first guy can't still be friends. She hasn't lost him- just the undefined, precarious, quasi-natured relationship between them. They would then probably be put into a scenario where they could establish a proper, healthy friendship, having been given a wake-up call.

And if you made that comment because it's possible you yourself are in this situation, please know that I myself have been in these quasi-relationships.

They were both with non-Christian guys who were interested in me, flirted with me, knew I wouldn't date them, but still continued flirting (one of them simply because he could, and was, getting the intimacy, and the other one because he was hoping to change my mind)- and I, enjoying their attention, flirted back. How did both 'quasi-relationships' end? With them getting a girlfriend and me getting hurt.
Guy #1: simply started dating this other girl when I went out of town for a few weeks, and we never spoke of the attraction between us, we never spoke of what happened, until a few months after he started dating (and consequently broke up with) this other girl. (And then it was just one conversation.)
Guy #2 (the one hoping to change my mind)and I had many DTR type talks, and while he acknowledged we would probably never date, he continued to treat me as- and I continued to happily fill the position of- his special girl. Until he developed an interest in another girl, at which point he discussed it with me. And even though everything was out in the open with us, it still hurt seeing someone else fill that position of his special girl (the position I shouldn't have been in anyway). (Not that he stopped flirting with me- *cough*PLAYER*cough*).

So anyway. I did genuinely care for those friendships- I still talk to the second guy every so often online (I talk to the first guy when I can, but that's rarely). But I needed to be shaked out of those quasi-relationships, and had true husband material seen me and wanted me so much he'd barge in and rescue me from something like that, I would have been eternally grateful. I knew the situations I was in were wrong, but because I valued the friendships (not to mention enjoyed the attention :P *rolls eyes*) I continued on in them.

I hope that explains why a guy barging in on quasi-relationships is not a bad thing.

[46. Leah said the following at 8:28 AM on Apr 1:]

46

Oh, and Kari- check out the Ladder Theory. I'll bet those guys *would* date you, except for the fact they know you wouldn't date them.

Ladder Theory: http://www.ochuk.com/?p=935

[47. Charles H. said the following at 11:31 AM on Apr 1:]

47

Felicity: You have it right. He should be giving that attention to his wife, not confusing you with it.

[48. Emily said the following at 4:06 PM on Apr 1:]

48

I'll get right to the point. I'm introverted and pretty quiet in groups of more than three. Whenever I try to get a word in, a more extroverted person either talks over me, or I feel like I'm being "fake" just to get people to notice I'm there. This especially happens in a group where I am new. I have noticed that the only guys to ever notice me have been ones I got to spend one-on-one time with. They did not pick me out of the group because I'm rarely the most outgoing. While I have had experience with heartbreak from excessive, undefined one-on-one time, the idea of mostly hanging out in groups puts me at a disadvantage in all kinds of relationships. I'm a pretty mysterious girl. How is a guy supposed to get to know me if we can't sit down and talk one-on-one?

[49. Melissa said the following at 6:22 PM on Apr 1:]

49

Ellie: I've been in a couple of similar situations similar to yours and it's never easy. To be honest, I've never handled it exactly like I would've liked to in hindsight. One time I freaked out and avoided the guy completely (which was difficult because we went to the same church and were involved in a lot of the same activities). My rudeness ended up temporarily ruining any friendship we DID have before he started pursuing me. So I definitely won't recommend that approach.

The other time, I didn't really say anything at all, and as it happened, the young man actually asked my dad if he could court me. I said no, so my father actually got me out of that one. Nonetheless, things were slightly akward between us for a while.

Since you have the distance factor on your side, and he's emailing you, I would find a way to let him know via that venue. You could respond to his emails with unpersonal (yet not rude) shorter replies that don't initiate another response. That still leaves room for potential lack of understanding on his part though. I think that a carefully thought out, gentle email that lets him know that you appreciate him as a friend would be good, but also state clearly that this phase of your life doesn't allow for any other kind of relationship. To me it seems that you could communicate that clearly without causing him unnecessary pain or humiliation.

I've dealt with some very dense guys though...well, dense isn't really the right word, they just don't always pick up on the "hints" we drop. Subtleties like that are usually painfully obvious to females. **(Guys, I'm not saying this is true for all of you, just a few that I've had to deal with, so please, don't take offense!! I'm NOT negatively steriotyping you!!)** Sometimes we have to communicate things in black and white terms that leave no room for misinterpretation. The nice thing about email is that you can carefully plot out what you want to say. (For good measure, I'd have a godly guy friend read a copy before I sent it, so I could get his perspective on how it landed on the male mental landscape.)

I hope that this will be remotely helpful to you, or that at least you won't feel so alone in your circumstances. I'll pray that everything will work out, because I know how complicated this stuff is. From your post, you seem to be a bit like me in that you REALLY don't want to make others uncomfortable or hurt their feelings...I've found it to be one of my biggest assets and weaknesses. So, I feel your pain and am praying that God will bless your attempts to resolve this situation to His glory!

[50. Melissa said the following at 6:38 PM on Apr 1:]

50

Emily: I think the most important element of any male-female friendship is that of our own heart. We know how we are emotionally affected by too much, or any, male attention. For some of us that means guarding our hearts by taking relatively extreme measures. BUT I tend to get to know people easily in group situations, so for me, one on one time with guys would be somewhat unwarranted.

I completely understand where you're coming from though, and wouldn't judge you for a second if you have one on one guy friendships. I know that the Lord guides and guards each of us individually if we are earnestly seeking to honor Him in our relationships

Just a humble reminder to those of us posting, (myself more than anyone):
As christians, we need to remember that sometimes our zeal for the right thing leads us to make blanket, judgemental statements, so I think we should try to season all our comments with grace, love, and understanding. ( I'm NOT picking on anybody, or trying to drop hints. I haven't seen any really judgemental remarks, I've just recently been convicted of my own tendencies in that area.)

[51. sarah b. said the following at 7:02 PM on Apr 1:]

51

i've had the opposite problem. my fiance and i just ended our relationship because he decided he wasn't happy with a compromise he made to me.. namely to not hang out with single women one-on-one. not only this, but he also had the unfortunate habit of greeting friends, men and women, single or not, with a kiss on the lips. he agreed not to do this any more either. he finally admitted these compromises made him unhappy and the wedding is now off, and he's looking for an apartment. any words of advice for me or him? i am very sad and wish i could change his mind. thanks.

[52. James said the following at 8:09 PM on Apr 1:]

52

"I for one am not interested in being a man's buddy. I'm tired of being the "sister" - I want to be someone's wife."

Sister, I can echo that from the guy's side:

I'm tired of being the "brother" all the time - I want to be someone's husband.

BDB,

It's "Revenge is a dish best served cold." Also, do you listen to much Shakesphere? I'm told it's best in the original Klingon. =p

Emily, you said you're usually the mysterious girl. Well, guess what? That WILL attract guys. Mystery intrigues a man, and he will be inquisitive to find out that which is in front of him but that he doesn't know much about. So, don't be discouraged, sister. You've got a powerful ally that other girls who are outgoing have less of or don't have at all, and that's mystery.

[53. Leah said the following at 8:11 PM on Apr 1:]

53

For Melissa, and anyone else- guys just don't pick up on hints, at all. Subtle hints, obvious hints, whatever. They don't take hints! Hinting is not the way to do it. Just tell him outright that you are not interested (politely, of course).

[54. Darin said the following at 8:42 PM on Apr 1:]

54

Ellie, my take on the situation is that your friend is probably a decent guy...but he has never been taught how a man is supposed to act in a relationship.

It sounds like you, on the other hand, know how a man is supposed to act...but you are a bit low on the assertiveness scale. You may have even been led to believe that it's inappropriate for a lady to ask for a DTR. (Ideally, you shouldn't have to...but guys who haven't been taught might need a nudge.)

Anyhow, it's beyond that point now. It sounds to me like you probably like this guy on some level...but you feel trapped by him. You admire his persistence...but don't appreciate his methods. Likewise, it's hard for a lady to respect a guy who doesn't respect himself.

It sounds like you probably already know what you need to do, but you're looking for some confirmation. My advice is that you level with him and tell him that you can't go on with the relationship. Tell him that for both of your sake you have to make a clean break from it. (He needs this relationship to end too so that he can get on with his life.)

And even though it's not required, I think that you'd be doing him a BIG favor by pointing him to Boundless. Just say something like, "I think that you need to understand women and relationships better. If you would like, I can tell you about a great website for learning these things."

God bless and I hope that my advice has helped. I'll say a prayer for your situation too.

[55. Shannon said the following at 9:12 PM on Apr 1:]

55

There seems to be a small debate over a few things here (what constitutes intimate? how close is too close? etc). I'll throw in my two cents as someone who's been on both sides - I had the "buddy" and now I'm married (not to the buddy).

The question that one should ask is not - is this "okay" but is it glorifying to God - does it push you towards the things of God?

I had a buddy in college. I had a lot of emotional crap and he was willing to listen. The result was that over three years we spent all this one on one time together. We had dinner together, we got coffee together and the whole time he kept telling me "he wasn't interested" in me. I engaged him intellectually, I was funny, but in his mind, not marriage material. Even when he was interested in pursuing another girl, he continued to meet with me.

Now, good things did come out of it, but I rather see them as God "turning it to good". My last year of college I finally told him to take a hike, that he was leading me on and I wasn't going to play anymore. In that moment I was finally emotionally free of him.

Within a few months I met my husband and because I was free of my "buddy" I could open up to him and start building the emotional bond with him. I married my best friend as far as I'm concerned.

Once you get married, opposite sex relationships have to change. I have some guy friends that were part of my "group" of friends and we exchange the occasional email - the content which is completely known by my husband.

I think avoiding intimate opposite sex friendships has a lot to do with being emotionally available for your future spouse. Men and women are supposed to connect strongly! A husband and wife are supposed to be best friends. When something great happens to you, it should be your spouse you want to talk to first. When you're sad, you're spouse is the one you want to comfort you.

I don't know if any of this makes much sense. I apologize, I'm a bit sleep deprived (we had our first baby six weeks ago!). But there's my thought for what it's worth :)

[56. Holly said the following at 9:19 PM on Apr 1:]

56

In my life, the Lord has used an intimate friendship with a guy to bring a lot of healing to both of us. We both had difficulty trusting the opposite sex because of past hurts (inflicted by our opposite-sex parents, respectively). The friendship developed every positive aspect of a brother-sister relationship, and there was no defrauding or miscommunication or potential for hurt feelings in that regard on either side because of one important factor -- and, as long as this factor is present, I think other singles can safely experience an intimate opposite-sex friendship.

We are not attracted to each other in a romantic sense at all. I am attracted to tall, athletic, serious types. He is a skinny computer geek video-gamer who couldn't be serious for ten consecutive minutes if you paid him. He is attracted to ultra-feminine, frilly-lace type girls. I am a black belt for whom breaking boards is a favorite hobby, who would just as soon spar you as talk to you. LOL.

God knew that we both needed the safety of a genuine friendship with the opposite sex as a chance to help heal the wounds our parents left us with, so he set us up perfectly in that regard. He has taught me a lot about men, and I have taught him a lot about women. We share the same rapport that I see in people who are siblings by blood.

I can already hear the objections, that a lot of time together and sharing of deep feelings can cause attraction to develop, etc., and I don't doubt that this is true in many (or even most) cases. But there are simply some guys I am never going to be attracted to in a romantic sense, just as I am never going to be attracted to a girl.

My guy friend and I have been beacons of God's unconditional love in each other's lives, and I often smile when I think about the bizarre way we met (a story too long to share here, but one which can be summarized with "only God could've arranged it"), the many things we have in common, and the sense of safety from being the polar opposite of each other's attraction. I would have to be male to be less attractive to him in a romantic sense, and he would have to be female to be less attractive to me in a romantic sense. End of the spectrum.

God truly has a sense of humor to match His boundless mercy.

[57. Chris Krycho said the following at 9:26 PM on Apr 1:]

57

Melissa - I must say, I certainly don't take any offense at your note that guys can often miss even girls' strong hints. (I often have.) As a good female friend of mine and I discussed a little while back, a girl can be sending the strongest signals she knows how to send, and the guys is completely oblivious all too often - even if he's looking for them. They're like a hidden, coded message to him. At the same time, I've known of many girls who had no idea a guy liked them, despite - or, as we were discussing, perhaps because - the fact that it was more like a flashing neon sign saying, "I really like you!" The girl can be so busy looking for subtle signals she misses the sign; and the guy doesn't know how to see the subtle signals, only neon signs. Neither is better or worse, but they certainly are different.

Yes, this is a strong generalization - but it's also, I think, at least partly true.

[58. BDB said the following at 11:06 PM on Apr 1:]

58

Emily:

I was thinking about what you said. In better company, a group facilitator will shush the loud people and draw you into the conversation. Though it occurs to me that women are much more difficult to approach when they travel in a pack, too. Here's a few things I thought of:

1) Smile. If you smile at a man twice in one day, he'll come talk to you. Doesn't work every time, but it works a lot. Even if you never get to talk in the group.

2) Volunteer. Preferably in an unstructured setting, such as a church food warehouse. This provides flexibility for small groups of people to work on a project together. It might only take two of you to put a bag of rice into each box for example.

3) Arrive early. If there's a group with people you like, start showing up ten minutes early. (In Southern California, this would make you an amazing person.) This would give you the chance to talk with the first 2-3 people who arrive before the group. And, if someone notices that you always arrive early, he might also start arriving early...

Though I will also say that some of the best conversations I've ever had came from seeking out the quiet person in a corner of a larger event.

[59. BDB said the following at 1:19 AM on Apr 2:]

59

For those of you who are interested, here is Elisabeth Elliot's devotional on this exact topic.

If the link doesn't work, it is entitled, "Two Marriageable People."

http://www.backtothebible.org/index.php?option=com_devotion&qid=5&task=show&resource_no=058&Itemid=75

[60. Cherise said the following at 7:58 AM on Apr 2:]

60

Ellie - I know how you feel! If he has not provided clarification for you about his intentions, then it feels like you can't say anything. After all, he may just want to be friends, right? Would you feel comfortable asking him what his intentions are? You have a right to know, after all the time you've spent together. Short of coming out and telling him straight up you don't want anything more than friendship, you are in a tough spot. Melissa's advice of replying to his emails with shorter, less personal answers is good. He may get the hint if you can consistently be busy and delay a few days in answering emails. Oftentimes a guy will give up if the girl of his interest becomes unavailable. I've done this passive rejection to a few guys, and while it's not the best way to handle the situation, it can work. It may feel mean/rude to tell a guy you're not interested (regardless of whether he's expressed interest by word or by deed), but it's really a kindness. You're saving him from wasting any more energy hoping for something with you. I hope this works out for you without minimal drama.

Sarah B. - I'm sorry to hear about the end of your engagement... what a heartache! But I think it was a good thing for him to release you from the commitment. If a guy can't keep a promise to you before marriage, he won't keep them afterwards. Kissing others on the lips as a greeting is not something I would be comfortable with my husband doing, and honestly, would you? Are you praying that God would change his heart? If he is the best man for you, then he will be willing to let go of his bachelorhood. And if he's not... then there is someone better, who will respect you. I pray that God would reveal His perfect love to you during this time.

[61. Michele said the following at 9:02 AM on Apr 2:]

61

It was difficult to read Scott's column, I admit. I'm one of those women who "get along" better with men than with women - I've always found it nearly impossible to form lastly friendships with women, sometimes because of my own issues, sometimes because of theirs.

Scott's column was convicting, and I think that's a great thing. A lot of us need a nudge when it comes to Biblical relationships of whatever kind - we don't know what is and is not acceptable, and often use the rest of the world as our guide.

With that in mind, though, when I finally came to know Christ and recognized the changes that needed to be made in my life, the nature of my friendships changed as well. I take the "would my future husband be offended/hurt by this?" attitude and it works well. I have fewer close friends - which is also good, because I have more time for the Lord and I have more opportunity to really develop the friendships I still have.

[62. MCW said the following at 9:28 AM on Apr 2:]

62

I really liked Scott's article because it explained some of the problems I've had and helped me take the first step in being clear about boundaries with male friends. However, I have on how to proceed with the male "best friend" who is currently "filling-in". I know my heart where he is concerned and I want to do the right thing and draw the boundaries and I need advice on the best way to do this without causing all out war. It feels like re-drawing country-boundaries and maybe I'm being too optimistic in hoping to keep the friendship.I would particularly like an older female/male perspective on this. Thanks.

[63. Michelle B said the following at 9:34 AM on Apr 2:]

63

Dear Sarah B:

I am SO sorry this has happened to you! I don't think I could say anything that would be helpful to you but I am praying for you!

[64. Alex C. said the following at 9:42 AM on Apr 2:]

64

I must admit that this is an issue that I have been struggling with for a long time. It always seemed incredibly weird to me to say that men and women shouldn't be close friends. When reading that article, the obsticle I face is the assertion over the "emotional intimacy" issue. There is hardly any problem with accepting the idea that "physical intimacy" is something that should be saved for marriage, but the idea that emotional closeness should also be saved for marriage is an idea that is much harder for me to grasp. The question it brings to my mind is that, if "close friendships" between women and men are innapropriate, why are "close friendships" between two men or two women ok? What if a person has a "close friendship" with a sibling of the opposite gender? Why is it ok for two guys or two girls to to be close friends? If being close inevitably leads to someone becoming romanticly interested in the other, why is it ok for same sex people to be close? The conclusion I'd end up coming to from reading that article is that no one, regardless of gender, should become close friends.

[65. Jen said the following at 11:34 AM on Apr 2:]

65

Alex, I've totally thought about that same issue (why is okay for 2 friends of the same gender to be close, if being emotionally intimate with someone takes away from your future spouse?). No one's really been able to give me a good answer to the question. Personally, I don't think that having emotional intimacy with someone defrauds your future spouse, but I'm definitely in the minority here.

[66. BDB said the following at 12:02 PM on Apr 2:]

66

Alex & Jen bring up a good point. This idea that only your spouse should provide emotional support will ultimately fail. I've spent the last 12 years in church "small groups" that include a significant number of married couples. The reality is that you need to live in community with people. If something medical happens to your spouse, and they were your sole means of support, you will truly be lost. Besides, very, very few people are strong enough to be the entire emotional support system for another person. It's even harder to do it consistently - everyone has good days and bad days.

That said, it's much easier to draw the line at avoiding lots of one-on-one time alone. Becoming a significant part of each other's routines is really where you get into trouble. We live in a time where people believe that romance "happens" or "doesn't happen." If you're spending 20 hours alone with someone each week, it's going to happen to one of you. Cut it back to an hour a week and you can still be friends, but you're no longer dependent on their routine for your own life. This varies by age though, too. An hour a week in college is nothing; when you're over 30, it might be seen as significant because it's hard to find that much uninterrupted time.

Though, if you're not interested in someone, and doing the passive "too busy to talk" thing, please don't then suggest dinner at a date-level restaurant at 8pm on a Friday and then give them a well-thought-out present. It's fine if you are interested, but if you're not, then that kind of behavior is VERY confusing.

Not that it's happened recently; I'm just saying it's a mixed message...

[67. Gary said the following at 12:16 PM on Apr 2:]

67

Ellie,

From a guys perspective, I agree with some of the other posts saying that hints typically do not work. I suggest that you be up front with this guy, and tell him that you're not interested in a relationship with him. It can be that simple...you don't have to give him a laundary list of reasons why. Don't cop out and say that you're too busy right now, or you're not ready, because if you by chance begin to date someone else in the near future, he will lose respect for you. Just be honest. That is really what a guy wants. Also, don't wait to do this until after you're at dinner with him like you did the first time. The next time he invites you to dinner or a movie or whatever, make your intentions clear. After that, if he still doesn't get the hint and e-mails you or calls you a lot, I feel you're under no obligation to return his e-mails or calls, since you've made your position known. But I can't stress enough to be open and honest with him. Women often use excuses for not going out with a guy, instead of just saying that they are not interested. This leaves open the possibility that you would have gone out with him if you weren't busy, which is just inviting him to ask you out again. I know it seems like guys are clueless to not get it, but sometimes its hard to accept that you've been rejected, especially if it was done using veiled attempts. If you're not interested, just say that to begin with, and everything is much easier from then on.

[68. Darin said the following at 12:36 PM on Apr 2:]

68

MCW, it's good to hear that you are drawing healthy boundaries for your friendships. In regards to the male "best friend", the best thing that you can do is to simply tell him how you feel and what your new boundaries are going to be. If he is a true friend, he will respect your feelings and abide by the rules.

One thing that you need to ask yourself is why you are worried that it will turn into "all out war". Has he demonstrated controlling behavior or manipulation in the past? If so, you're not really his friend; you're his prisoner.

Anyway, you need not feel like you are destroying a friendship. You have every right to express your feelings. If the friendship doesn't survive then it was him who destroyed it; not you.

[69. Alex C. said the following at 1:47 PM on Apr 2:]

69

"We live in a time where people believe that romance "happens" or "doesn't happen." If you're spending 20 hours alone with someone each week, it's going to happen to one of you."

The problem I have is that a lot of articles and comments I've seen on this site will argue that this is inevitably what happens to a man and a women when they spend a lot of time together, but say nothing about the possibility of this happening between people of the same sex. Why are two guys or two girls (or opposite gendered siblings) who spend great lenghts of time together per week assumed to be immune to this effect that seems to plague guy/girl friendship interactions? It's as if we assume that there is some unexplainable "something" that only happens between a guy and a girl that causes them to become attracted; I think if that were true than either A) homosexuality wouldn't be very prevelent at all, or B) "curing" homosexuality would be much easier than it's made out to be (all you'd have to do is get a homosexual person to form a close friendship with someone of the opposite sex.)

[70. Darin said the following at 1:51 PM on Apr 2:]

70

Melissa, Cherise and women in general, there is something that I need to tell you about men. First of all, it is SO TRUE that men don't get women's hints! (You really hit the nail on the head with that one, Melissa.)

The other thing that you need to understand is that we are "problem solvers". So, if all of a sudden you start sending shorter and less frequent e-mails to a male friend, I can almost guarantee you he's never going to have a moments peace until he figures out WHAT THE PROBLEM IS.

Here's an example of what goes on in a guys head when a woman starts to close down communication with him: "I wonder what's wrong? Was it something that I said? Was it something that I did? Or maybe it was something that I DIDN'T do that I should have. Maybe she's just wanting me to persue harder. On the other hand, maybe it's not even about me. Maybe she's depressed. Or maybe she's just really busy right now. -- WHY DOESN'T SHE JUST TELL ME???"

A guy will then go through all of the motions of trying to find out what's going on inside the elusive female mind. He'll call you or write you: "Are you upset with me about something? Are you depressed? What's wrong?"

Eventually, you're right...some guys will eventually disappear. But don't assume that they got the hint. Most of the time they simply walk away angry, hurt, frustrated and confused. (Really, is it worth putting a guy through all that?)

I don't think that you INTEND guys any harm by using that tactic on them...but from a man's perspective that's simply how it is.

(Other than that I totally agree with your advice to Ellie.)

[71. Rebekah said the following at 3:22 PM on Apr 2:]

71

Shannon: I was in a situation similiar to yours, not that long ago, only everything happend over a years time. Since you have bridged the gap between being "buddies" and being married, I thought I might ask you a question that I have been struggling with for sometime.

The thing I have a hard time with, is finding a balance between being someones "buddy" and yet emotionally connecting with someone enough to marry them. How do you know that the time and effort and emotional attachment you put into someone will turn out to be your future husband?

I guess I just want to prevent myself from becoming someones "buddy" again, but at the same time still develop a relationship with someone. What is the distinguishing lines between being someones "buddy" and being on your way to a long lasting committed relationship?

Perhaps someone else has already asked this question, and I've just missed the answer somewhere among all the posts....so if I'm reposting something, I'm sorry!

[72. IWishToRemainAnonymous said the following at 4:10 PM on Apr 2:]

72

I have two takes on this:

First of all, for many years (through high school, and college, and on into grad school) I was close friends with an unsaved guy. He was interested in me for a time; I was not interested in him, and the dilemma of whether or not I should be interested in him was never an issue because as an unbeliever, he was not someone I could date. We shared many hobbies and interests, and because his family was a certified mess, he looked to mine to see what a family should be like. I had opportunities to witness to him, and he credits me with teaching him a lot about life. Three years ago, we met for lunch during spring break; he had recently become engaged, and that was our last "old buddies" time together. Now that he is married, I will not spend time with him unless his wife is present or we are with a group, and anything I email to him goes to the joint account he shares with his wife. There was a necessary, and very natural, severing of our friendship as it had formerly existed when he married his wife.

On the other hand, I can think of a good number of CHRISTIAN guys who played the "buddies" game with me without making their intentions clear enough to avoid confusion, only to disappear and then resurface with a girlfriend or fiancee in tow.

So why is it that I could have a quality, platonic friendship with a nonbeliever but not with a Christian guy?

[73. Joey U. said the following at 4:13 PM on Apr 2:]

73

Alex & Jen,
I hope to be able to answer your question. It might seem very confusing to consider intimate friendship between two single Christians of the opposite sex not beneficial, but then consider 2 Christian male friendships (David and Jonathan) or 2 Christian female friendships ( Ruth and Naomi) to be beneficial. What is the difference? (which is what I think you’re asking)
I do not full understand the reason for homosexual tendencies, nor do I know if they come from spending too much time with the same sex. I do not believe that is the problem, but due to my lack of knowledge I will not address that area. I do understand that the friendship between 2 Christian of the same sex is different from the relationship between the Christian friendships of the opposite sex. The major difference is that you won’t receive the type of intimacy that is meant for marriage from the same sex, because God created that kind of intimacy only to be experienced between married men and women.
I think one of the points of the article was to show that intimate guy/girl relationships try to emulate the intimacy we desire in marriage. It causes us the delay in seeking marriage and it takes away from the intimacy planned for your future spouse. If we can’t experience that intimacy in guy/guy or girl/girl friendships, then I don’t think they will hinder our desires for marriage.

Hope this helps
Joey

[74. felicity said the following at 4:16 PM on Apr 2:]

74

Wow, there has been a lot of talk today. It sounds like there are a lot of people with the same types of problems out there. It's a good feeling to know you're not alone.

I'm doing my best to let go of this friendship I have with my "mbf" male best friend, but he's not taking it so well.

I'm thankful for all of the advice offered even when it is directed towards someone else. I'm taking it all in and trying to apply it; it's a slow process.

[75. felicity said the following at 4:18 PM on Apr 2:]

75

Rebekah:
What an excellent question! I can't wait to hear some of the answers!

[76. Ariana said the following at 4:23 PM on Apr 2:]

76

Darin,

Thanks for explaining how guys deal when women shut down communication. It's not a very nice thing to just go "silent," but at the same time, I wonder if you would suggest just going silent for a guy who would happily string a girl along without clearly stating his intentions? On one hand, why should one party have to explain themselves when the other won't? At the same time, that seems a bit petty. But maybe that provides a little motivation in some cases?

Alex C.,

On what you said about romance "just happening" between men and women, and also about homosexuality: The premise underlying the Boundless article is that generally men are already attracted to women and generally women are already attracted to men--to the exclusion of those of the same sex. Oftentimes, at some point, that general desire for an opposite-sex companion will enter into the friendship and this friend is seen as having very solid potential for fitting the bill. If a person has no attraction to a person of the opposite sex, then there's little reason to think that something would just arise in an intimate friendship.

Moreover, the article encourages singles to be honest about the nature of their relationship to their opposite-sex friend, which many times is really romantic in nature (at least in part) rather than just "friendly." And yes, there is a difference between the two. CS Lewis' The Four Loves is useful for making the distinction; and J.Budziszewski also wrote an Ask Theophilus column about it, but I can't remember the title. But since there is a difference, I think that that also means that there are some male-female friendships that really can stay platonic, because the nature of the friendship is actually platonic, and for whatever reason, both parties have excluded the other from "mate potential," which, by the way is one possible reason that same-sex friends don't necessarily "fall" for one another.

[77. Sina said the following at 4:23 PM on Apr 2:]

77

Rebekah~ that's a very good question and one that I would like to find out the answer to myself. I hate to repeat the 'buddy' thing again but at the same time I realize I may be cutting myself off from future relationships. Anyone have suggestions?

[78. Ellie said the following at 4:46 PM on Apr 2:]

78

Thanks for all the advice; very helpful! The prayers are much appreciated, too. I think I will have to talk to him soon - I just hope that I can have both grace and clarity in doing it.

Regarding the why is it okay for same-sex friends or family members to spend that sort of time....
I would guess it has to do with the complementary nature of men and women. We were created for the "my better half" system. Homosexuality and SSA do exist (and I do feel for those experiencing that), as does incest, but these aren't the expression of sexuality God intended. As such, I think there is a higher potential in these situations, and a certain naturalness to it (as we desire companionship), for something more to develop.

My best friend, whom I cannot fathom not being in my life, is also female. But the emotional support we give and receive is different than that between me and a significant other. And we both need it. But it is different. We might be complementary in, say, she's better at trig and I'm decent at history, or she knows how to handle one type of situation, and I have experience handling another, but it's not the same as that, I don't know, natural fit between men and women that I think exists.

Just my two cents. : )

[79. Amber said the following at 5:49 PM on Apr 2:]

79

Sarah B.: I'm sorry to hear about the end of your engagement. I recently endured the same thing. I know it feels like the end of so many things right now. That's ok. It's ok to be sad -- but also know that what feels like a pain that can never heal CAN... with God's help. You're probably wondering why God would bring the two of you together only to change your fiance's heart. I don't know, but I'm starting to slowly see through my pain a purpose for my hurt and I believe that you will in time see that as well. Sarah...I know words do nothing to comfort...big hug from a sister in Christ!

[80. BDB said the following at 7:10 PM on Apr 2:]

80

Ummm...at the risk of irritating everyone with another post, here's two more pieces.

You will really learn a lot about someone by how they respond when you try to set a boundary. If they care about you, they will respect it, Even if they don't understand it, they will hopefully slow down and ask for clarification.

For example, when I was in college, I once had a female friend say I had to stop calling. I said, "OK, write me a letter."

And I waited.

About a week later, I got a letter. Turns out, the problem wasn't me. She explained that her uncle was upset by how much time she was spending on the phone. She was actually helping to take care of a grandmother in a nursing home. The uncle didn't have call waiting and wouldn't consider it, and he was upset that he might miss a call from the nursing home.

So we wrote a bunch of letters that summer. Today, she and her husband and I, are all still good friends a dozen years later. Even the uncle was glad to meet me at the wedding.

If you're at the point of severing a friendship, I wouldn't recommend mailing a letter or just going silent. That's mean.

But if you really just want to re-adjust the boundaries, you can write it in a letter - then hand it to them and let them read it in front of you. Might be a good idea to bring a box of tissue. But a couple of times I've been pleasantly surprised at certain people's willingness to adjust without drama. It might even be a relief and reduce tension for them, too. I really do get concerned that the marriage-or-nothing mentality is what creates so much pressure that men are afraid to initiate anything.

[81. DanL said the following at 9:25 PM on Apr 2:]

81

I’ll confess that many of my closest friends have been women. There have been several times when it seems like I was just setting myself up to be hurt, so I’m very open to the idea male/female friendships are a bad idea, but in the end I find Mr. Croft’s argument unconvincing. Croft’s article itself seems to shift form, alternating between such friendships being unbiblical and merely being unwise. Most of the comments seem to assume that the friendship between the man and women is some undefined interaction that might be romantic, or might not, and is just sort of drifting along. I wish we would spend more time dealing cases where both the man the women have discussed this and agreed to be just friends. I think addresses the point of the “defrauding” that Croft attempts to make.

Many of my close female friends have been women that I’ve either dated or ask out previously. Its true that that can makes things awkward at first and its sometimes frustrating when the two of you seem to relate so well, and you have no idea why they wouldn’t ever consider you more than a friend. But the awkwardness works itself out over time, and I would consider it the height of selfishness if I was only interested in friendship with a woman if I thought it would get me something more. In the end these friends have helped out through some very difficult periods of my life, and I’m grateful that they were there for me. It has definitely been worth any pain the relationship caused. In the end, I think if you get close enough to any friend, be they male or female, there will be times when you both cause each other pain, but I hope this never leads us to think we shouldn’t have close friends.

It has been true that I haven’t been spending 20 hours a week with any of these friends. I don’t have 5 hours, let a long 20 to spend with anyone even if I wanted. And most of time hasn’t truly been spent along, but in small groups of three or four, although we never actually canceled plans if our other friends didn’t make it. We have spent a lot of time emailing. And I’ve made several calls to my one friend who spent the last two years as a missionary in Eastern Europe, although I generally don’t like phone calls. Like Emily above, I am painfully shy don’t have the ability to get to know someone if I am in a large group.

Despite what was said in the article, and by others, I’ve never really found it that difficult when my female friends to get married. Obviously I involve the husband in any activities, and time you see each gets cut down some. All and all though, I’d say my relationship with female friends who get married changes less than with my male friends who get married. I think women in general keep more of the old friends (male and female) when they get married, while men suddenly only want to interact with other marrieds.

[82. blessedbabe said the following at 9:55 PM on Apr 2:]

82

I think Scott hit everything right. I've been in one. Usually it is the woman who gets hurt and ends up expecting something. I reached a point (as did many of my sisters who experienced it) as to why is it that of all people, it's a Christian guy who's hurt me.

Now, I wasn't about to go on and conclude that the entire Christian male population is like that. But see, I live in Asia and my pastor has admonished the men in one session. Then I go read up articles like this and was surprised that this is as common as it is in the West!

I think it's all about the "renewal of the mind" and all of us being a work in progess.

But let's make it clear. We are to be a light to the world. We have to show them what a good relationship is like. Not the other way around.

In a sense, that book entitled 'He's not that Into You,' which is not a Christian book, but somehow make sense. Men in general, if they want something, would really go get it. Non-Christians at least.

Shouldn't Christians behave even more so? Since we have the Holy Spirit and therefore more wisdom, shouldn't we already know what we want? And be clear in getting it?

I think that Christian men should be clear in what they want and boldly get it. I seriously think that if they want marriage, they would do everything to get it!

Now as for women who fawn over this 'Christian men are too timid to pursue' thinking, the only one we can go to this is God, of course. But let's also consider our brothers. They have to think and initiate about everything!

I really think that we should understand them and know that the true Christian men will stand up for the things that they want, especially marriage.

Now, if it seems like they're not doing anything... they're probably 'not that into you.' It shouldn't be cause for impatience or despair. Just more room for prayer and I guess... other men.

[83. James said the following at 11:15 PM on Apr 2:]

83

Gary said, "Don't cop out and say that you're too busy right now, or you're not ready, because if you by chance begin to date someone else in the near future, he will lose respect for you. Just be honest. That is really what a guy wants. Also, don't wait to do this until after you're at dinner with him like you did the first time. The next time he invites you to dinner or a movie or whatever, make your intentions clear. After that, if he still doesn't get the hint and e-mails you or calls you a lot, I feel you're under no obligation to return his e-mails or calls, since you've made your position known. But I can't stress enough to be open and honest with him. Women often use excuses for not going out with a guy, instead of just saying that they are not interested. This leaves open the possibility that you would have gone out with him if you weren't busy, which is just inviting him to ask you out again. I know it seems like guys are clueless to not get it, but sometimes its hard to accept that you've been rejected, especially if it was done using veiled attempts."

Ladies, let me be up front here: if you cop out and give a false reason that doesn't clearly say in itself "I'm not interested in you romantically," then one of two things will happen:

1) The guy will ask you out again, and you will decline in the same vague manner you did previously. Ad infinitum, or until a guy you DO like asks you out, you accept and start dating the guy. Then that previous guy will lose respect for you because he will THEN see your reasons as dodges (which they were), and will feel betrayed because you lied to him, and he would be right. It is much more preferable that you let him know the FIRST time he asks that you're not interested in him romantically and decline the date for THAT reason. No list of reasons why are needed, but for heaven's sake, do NOT use anything other than the truth.

2) From previous experience the man will see what you're really saying and take it as is. However, in the process you will lose credibility in his eyes because he will know that you're really saying something else and will see that as you not respecting him enough to give him the straight truth. Like in situation number 1, he will feel betrayed and lied to. It's just that it won't take as long. He'll know after the first attempt, or maybe the second.

Also, ladies, NEVER say "I don't believe God has me in a position to be in a relationship right now" unless you really mean that for the current season of your life (meaning that this is going to be at least for the next several months or year or so) that you are NOT to be in any serious relationship. Too often I see even well-meaning girls use this on me, and from experience I've come to see it as "I'm actually interested in another guy." And just about every time I've been proven right b/c within the following month, sure enough she's dating a guy. You REALLY want to make a guy feel betrayed and lied to, hide behind God when He hasn't actually put you in a season of continued singleness (doesn't count if you're seriously attracted to a guy who's also acting attracted to you). This, above all other excuses is the WORST, and as a guy I HATE it when a girl uses this as a cop-out. Now, when its the truth, then that's fine and very noble and I pray about that for that girl in my prayers. But when it turns out not to be true, then it feels as if even my prayers were just defrauded.

So, ladies, here's the straight facts: we men DO NOT process hints.....at all. So be direct, but tactful. To be kind you just need to be honest and respect us enough to tell us the truth off the bat. Doesn't mean you don't have to be careful in your words, it just means don't tell us reasons that aren't true.

I still respect a girl who turns me down kindly, but tells me the reason is because she is not interested in me romantically. But if she dodges, and I see it (I've been hurt enough that I can suspect it when it happens .... though I'll usually try and get a straight answer out of her first before I totally give up all hope), then she loses respect and the pain is WORSE.

[84. Darin said the following at 11:18 PM on Apr 2:]

84

Ariana, I agree that it would probably be like poetic justice to just "go silent" on a guy who doesn't define the relationship like he should. But that would be "eye for an eye" justice (i.e. revenge) and we're under a different covenant.

As far as teaching him a lesson.... I don't think that it would do him near as much good as some genuine communication. (Most guys don't even know what is expected of them in a relationship...sad, but true.)

Another way to teach the guys a lesson is to require clarity BEFORE an intimate friendship starts. It's perfectly acceptable for a lady to request that. (A lady shouldn't have to ask...but if the guy doesn't know his role then she may have to.) A woman who gets strung along is a "willing victim" and she needs to acknowledge her own role in it.

[85. MCW said the following at 4:09 AM on Apr 3:]

85

Thanks for the advice Darin and your additional post on hints and why they don't work has helped as well (I was thinking of taking this "easier" route).

And the comment on "all out war" was more in reference to myself - as I think I would have the bigger struggle/battle in keeping those boundaries :( I have however been very encouraged by the posts that have shared on creating and keeping boundaries and the benefits they have gained so in prayer I'm going forward :)!

[86. Ariana said the following at 12:52 PM on Apr 3:]

86

Darin,

Thanks for the response, though I didn't really mean that perhaps women ought to go silent in order to get revenge or to teach guys a lesson. I meant that in the case that a man is actually stringing a girl along, that perhaps she could "check out" of this quasi-relationship without needing to explain to him why, unless, of course, he asks. Like I said, that's not very nice -- particularly if the guy really means no harm. But in one way, having to have that conversation with the guy seems unfair. Sure, women can ask a man to state his intentions if they are confused, but more often than not she is only concerned with this question because she wants more than he's giving. In which case, bringing the issue up might be one more grasp at a relationship that perhaps isn't even worth it. (The whole, "He's Just Not That Into You" line of thinking. But perhaps that's a bit pessimistic, and it goes against the testimony of people like Candice and Steve Watters.

[87. Nicole said the following at 4:44 PM on Apr 3:]

87

I've really enjoyed reading the comments to this blog as it relates a lot to my situations that I have been dealing with lately. I have suffered a lot of emotional harm from Christian males who do not know how to respectfully end friendships. And no, it was not me who desired more than friendship. Instead, I have been a victim of "going silent" from males whose romantic feelings I did not return. While I completely respect one's need to disengage from a person by whom their romantic feelings are not returned, I do feel like we are called to be respectful rather than hurtful when doing so. However, these guys abruptly stopped interacting or worse, would contact me asking for forgiveness and the reestablishment of our friendship only to then immediately cease speaking to me even during holidays, birthdays and such occassions. Hence, I was left extending grace and forgiveness to people who immediately upon receiving it returned to exhibiting disrespect, ostracism, and generally unChrist-like behavior.

In my experience (and that of many of my Christian female friends), I have found that this is an area where Christian men struggle more than non-Christians. I have had friendships with non-Christian men were I did not return their romantic feelings. As a result, we are no longer friends. However, the process of dissolving our friendships was not rude or hurtful. These men handled it in a mature and respectful manner in which neither of us suffered any additional emotional harm. For the life of me, I cannot understand why I have been treated so much better by men who do not profess to be Christians than by those who do.

As a single woman such experiences can be extremely discouraging...How can we support one another as husbands/wives when we unnecessarily fail each other as brothers/sisters?

Please know that I agree that intimate cross-sex friendships are unwise. My issue is with the dysfunctional manner in which individuals go about severing those relationships.

[88. Katie said the following at 5:35 PM on Apr 3:]

88

Aaron:

Thank you thank you thank you!! I pretty much echo the comments that commended you for this attitude. That sort of thing helps us girls to not attach our hearts, and I pray you are able to maintain that distance until God brings you your wife.

[89. Darin said the following at 6:46 PM on Apr 3:]

89

Ariana, thanks for the clarification. I think that I understand a bit better now. You're talking in terms of a guy who knows what he's supposed to do but he's just not doing it...did I get it right?

I have one final observation that I want to comment on in this post. Upon reading all of the stories of hurt it would be easy to go to the opposite extreme of avoiding the opposite sex altogether. But it's important to keep in mind that "pain avoidance" is not always the answer.

Proverbs 14:4 says, "Where no oxen are, the manger is clean, but much revenue comes by the strength of the ox." In other words, by avoiding the mess you often miss out on the rewards. So in regards to opposite sex friendships, don't throw out the ox just to keep the barn neat and clean. Just make sure that you are using the ox in a proper and constructive manner.

[90. Matt said the following at 12:47 AM on Apr 4:]

90

Well this is something that just came to a head tonight.

There was a girl that I was pursuing over a period of time. We had gone on 3 "dates" during that time and I was getting ready to do the DTR thing. However, she popped the DTR on me first and asked what my intentions were towards her. After I told her that I liked her she said that she was still getting over a previous relationship, was really busy with grad classes and work, and was feeling like she was far from God so she didn't think it was fair to me to be in a relationship right now.

Due to some converstations we basically agreed to a 2 month period where we'd see where we felt then. Well that 2 month period was ending next week and I had no idea if I was interested in her still. However, after talking to her roommate tonight I learned that basically all that was code for "I'm not interested in you that way".

I'd strongly considered that as a possibility for what she was really thinking but I was pretty sure that if she didn't like me that she was they type that would have been willing to tell me that she wasn't into me. I guess I was wrong.

I'm not upset with her, but I wished I had known 2 months ago what I know now instead of 2 months with ambiguity. As has been said before, girls if you don't like the guy be gently but straightforward and honest. We aren't these delicate butterflies that won't recover from getting crushed. Sure, it will hurt but we will get over it and move on. Dragging out the process ends up being more painful in the long run.

[91. Ariana said the following at 1:40 PM on Apr 4:]

91

Darin,

Yes, that's about right. Though the funny thing is, it seems like it doesn't register to some guys that what they are doing is stringing a girl along. So, that's why communication is actually good. Not to be down on men, but a friend and I were talking about the behavior of a male-friend of hers; and we agreed that sometimes Christian guys can think that becuase there's no sex involved or other types of physical intimacy, that their ambiguous relationships with their female friends and more-than-friends must be okay. For some reason, the thought "I'm a player" doesn't register, since in comparison to non-Christian men, they're great. And I've been unsure about the proper response to that. In the secular world, a woman dealing with such a man, if she has a decent amount of self-respect will say, "You're a jerk," and never give him another moment's thought. But I'm sure we owe our Christian brother more than that.

[92. xeres said the following at 2:51 PM on Apr 4:]

92

I think the problem is most people's minds, they subconsciously think that this person is like me. The truth of the matter is that no one will be like me. Most of love the idea of relationships, not so much of the person him/herself. As a result, we never anticipate the possible differences I migh have with this person either as a friend or lover or spouse. Also, most Christians entering Christian college think like as if because it's christian, everyone will like Mr. rogers and all that. Plus, a lot of us feel won't have a hard time making an effort to make relationships work and meaningfulnow that most people are Christians. If that was the case, then the Gentile believer in the early church will easily be fellowshipping with the Jewish believers side by side as if they best buddies, which didn't quite happen that way. While being christ followers relieve some of the issues, it doesn't make communication any less work. This planet is not the garden of eden. Everyone is going to had some sort of bad history whatever it is. I think that's why my university is one of the few Christian colleges where being a believer isn't required to apply to the university. As long as we exist, we will always going to has problems with the opposite sex either way. Avoiding them will just make the problem worse anyway

[93. Chris Krycho said the following at 3:20 PM on Apr 4:]

93

Matt - sorry to hear that. I pray you will have grace to walk through this; I know that sort of things can hurt (been there, done that). The ambiguity is often the worst part, in my experience: far worse even than hearing no (painful though that be) are the times when, as a guy, you simply have to wait and not understand where a girl is coming from.

Ladies - help out your guy friends by explaining honestly where you're coming from. If you don't know (and I understand from conversations with women I'm friends with that, odd as it may seem to us men, you sometimes just don't), then help by explaining that. Most guys don't understand that; I don't understand how it works but I understand that it happens. If you communicate that to a guy - honestly, not as a cover - then he'll appreciate it.

It seems the issue of deception has been raised a lot. Deception typically for the purpose of not hurting someone's feelings, but deception nevertheless. Does it bother anyone else that we, as Christians, so cavalierly practice the "white lie" or simple obfuscation by omission, etc. so as to "protect" each other? The truth really does set us free. Be tactful in your delivery of the truth, yes... but speak the truth. No matter how painful that is for the person hearing it, it's far more loving to tell them the truth now rather than stringing them along (which I think guys and girls have a bad tendency to do in equal degrees, though in different ways).

God bless, all.

[94. xeres said the following at 4:09 PM on Apr 4:]

94

Deception bothers me a lot. the question how can the truth be presented in a Christ like way without blowing their world apart. However, it's really hard to anticipate the response well especially if you going to be the one who blow their world apart in a negative fashion. I'm always stuck with unrequited love all the time. I mean, there is a guy that I became a pal to (not a intimate buddy). As I got to notice few things about the person, I come to be interested. However, I'm always stuck with the reality that they'll not going like me back at anytime soon :P. It was clear as day but I still hold on to those feelings. I always knew but I end up liking them anyway. I couldn't tell them especially when I knew the true outcome anyway. Part of me does want to but it just reeks. This doens't happen to every guy but when it happen, it's pretty lame to say the least. Throughout my years, I have been interested in five guy pals but only one come to like me back. However that was bittersweet because he was or became a backslidder and I'm becoming mature in my faith. That doesn't help either if I like this person before I became a believer. As of now, I'm over him but it was hard. If you knew whats going on, you would understand. Honesty is fundamental regardless of my excuses for not letting those male pals know my true romantic feelings for them especially when one of them had to found out through gossip. However, I'm doing much better but I still have a long way to go.

[95. sarah b said the following at 10:13 PM on Apr 7:]

95

thank you so much cherise, michelle b. and amber for your kind words of hope, prayer and encouragement. i have moved through the pain, grief and heartbreak, and i am now working through some anger for his deception and incredible break of trust. fortunately, he will be moving out within a week, so i will then have more space to come back into my own. thanks again and god bless you all!

[96. sarah b said the following at 10:38 PM on Apr 7:]

96

alex and jen,

my two cents on the emotional closeness between two of the opposite sex is that, say you have a great friend of the opposite sex then get married.. the friend would (or should if his/her intentions with you are pure) totally understand the need to back off. if he/she didn't, and you were to have an argument with your spouse, then that friend "could" be your sounding board... a very real threat in times of hardship to your spouse. your "friend" then might understand you, support you, help you, etc. and then he/she could seem like a better partner to you in that time of distress than your spouse. so my answer would be that intimate one-on-one friendships with the opposite sex should be considered innappropriate simply for the reason that they *could* become a threat, and why upset your spouse by dangling that carrot (keeping an intimate friend of the opposite sex around). hey, pretty good explanation, eh? :-)

by all means, go out in groups if you don't want to lose your opposite sex friends altogether! and if you have an opposite sex friend around that you wouldn't be willing to make that compromise or committment for, then take a gooooood hard look at your spouse, girlfriend, boyfriend, fiance, relationship, and ask yourself in what ways you are unhappy. because granted, there is *something* - and then be brave and discuss it with him/her.

god bless!

[97. Marcus said the following at 1:43 AM on Apr 8:]

97

Too many comments to follow and read! But definitely a wealth of information here!
So i guess i'm not alone in this after all!
This whole friendship-courtship thing is a dangerous mine(mind)field that requires careful and prayerful treading.

So what happens when she says:
"I'm don't think i'm ready for a relationship now"
or
"I don't think this is going to work out".
Does it mean "BACK OFF, GO AWAY, NEVER"? - Something along those lines was said to me. She had just had a long term relationship end on her. I guess, i made the mistake of not letting her heal by herself. But she had always been a friend - a good friend (I believe she even used the term 'close friend') prior to this situation. She had always been there for me, and vice versa.

This put a huge strain on our friendship. I basically had to find ways to avoid her completely - Block her on IM, deactivate my facebook account etc..it was my way of getting her out of my system.
(My friends, it's not the best way! she'll know..)

This affected my studies greatly, and i had to struggle the whole first semester of graduate school.
I never saw her for more than 5 months. I barely spoke to her over IM or whatever means. I never called her. The most i did was a card for Christmas...which all other friends received too..

----
Today 8 months later, things have improved somewhat. I believe she's moved forward, acquired a FIRE for Christ, made new friends. Same goes for me, i've gotten plugged into a Church, got myself involved with campus and Int'l student ministry.

The scary thing is this:
I thought the feelings had gone away after being away from her for so long.
I can't lie. They're still there.
I feel like telling her again, but the cost was so high the last time i shared with her.
I enjoy hanging out in groups with her and her/our friends. I try not to engage her too much in our group get-togethers...

What do you folks think about,
DTR: "May I try, again?"

[98. Jessica said the following at 10:03 AM on Apr 9:]

98

It's very interesting that we pose the question why we keep the opposite sex friend around when we are in a relationship when it seems that there is a more obvious question or questions that need to be asked, such as:
What if this friendship is not just about your inappropriate level of closeness but your own personal fears and insecurities?(fears that your relationship won't fulfill your needs the way you want or believe you need it to)

What is your real reason for being this close to a single young man/woman? Are you using this relationship as a buffer against loneliness?

Are you expecting more fulfillment from your relationships with your friend/significant other than you are your personal relationship with Jesus?

The more we draw to God and grow in our level of intimacy with Him, the more insight and clarity you receive in your own relationships. It is because of the love of God that we are capable to love others.

Just my thoughts.....

[99. The Nameless Woman said the following at 7:07 PM on Apr 10:]

99

Jessica - your point is one of the most interesting by far. I've recently been discovering for myself that the best way to guard my own heart around my guy friends is to view the friendship in as an unselfish way as possible. I don't want to be friends with a guy simply because I desire to get a boyfriend out of the deal.

I still don't know when to bridge the gap between being "just friends" and pursuing something further but I guess it's all one step at a time. For now I'm most comfortable in groups.

I've long decided that the only men that I'd come strongly attached to an emotional sense are my dad, brother (whom I share excellent relationships with) and my future husband. Other guys can become even good friends with me but currently I reserve any of my pure, emotional honesty for my girlfriends.

[100. N said the following at 8:46 PM on Apr 11:]

100

I would actually like to seriously disagree with this article and most posts on here. I, as a female, think a close, intimate relationship with guys is essential to life and especially essential before you ever think about dating him.
I will state first that I think it is essential to life because they bring a different perspective to things. At this point in my life I am to be single, and I am sure God has called me to that point for now, but only for now. I still need that male problem solving persona in my life, which my close male friends provide. And they need my attention to details. We say men and women are very different, yet we apparently don’t need those differences during our single years?
Now I will tell you why I think an intimate relationship with a guy is essential before you date him. As a sophomore in college another guy transferred to a school in my area. We were sorta friends for about a month. I met him at church. He talked and really seemed to walk with this “I love Jesus” attitude. He had read all the books, his prayers made me shiver, his Bible looked worn. He basically seemed perfect. I was thrilled when he asked me out and of course said yes. We started dating and getting to know each other. He ended up “date-raping” me about a month into the relationship, and it gets a lot more complicated, but that’s all that needs to be said here (it’s rape, not date-rape, I assure you that is a dumb term). You can’t know someone well enough when you’ve only know them for about three months. Yeah, you can avoid that with other people knowing them and stuff, but who could know them well enough when they are new in town? That’s why any other guy I date will be someone I’ve had a close intimate relationship with for a while before I go out on even one date with them. That's why an intimate friendship with the opposite sex is necessary.
I think in this article the "Biblical" reasons are flimsy at best, as I saw someone else point out and won't waste your time on.
As far as it replacing your need for other relationships, I disagree. There is a difference between a relationship where both of you are looking toward a future together and planning and thinking about that possibility and a friendship where you both are planning separate lives. From personal intimate friendships with guys I've seen them pursue and start dating other girls who I had no problem with and who had/have no problem with me. They didn't mind our intimate friendship at all.
If I found that I didn’t need to have these friendships during my college years (which have been spent at a women’s college) and during my graduate school years (a phase I start this fall) I would probably decide that I never really needed a husband honestly. I spent most of a year without that close relationship with guys that I had always enjoyed, because of my bad relationship with the prior mentioned guy, and I thought that perhaps I never needed that in the future. I was doing okay without them after all. But having those friendships now has taught me that God didn’t create me to be single and at some point in the future he wants me to get married. They also show me the type of guys that are out there, the godly, amazing, good guys. I forgot they existed for a while, and having these good Christian men as friends remind they do exist. They set a standard for any guy who ever tries to win my heart. They check out the guys who do show interest in me. I had one guy friend look at me and say absolutely not to this guy I was talking to, he told me later that he knew him from school and he was bad news for me, but at that moment I just trusted my friend and talked politely and moved on by politely declining giving him my number.
I obviously have put lots of thought into this. I once read a quote I don't remember it word for word or who said it, but it said something to the extent that friendships between men and women are great, but at some point one or the other will fall for the other -- maybe for a time, maybe at the wrong time, maybe forever. This quote may be true. But I would rather risk getting slightly hurt by developing a crush on one of these intimate friends than dating a guy who's just a friend I don't know that well and risk the heartbreak from that. I know that the guy who wins my heart one day will have come from one of these close friendships, because I’ve dated one guy who didn’t and it was the worst experience of my life. And I personally would prefer for you to not tell guys that they should not pursue intimate friendships with girls, because if they stop I will probably never get married.
Perhaps you see that as me having a trust issue and needing healing. I have had counseling and have moved on in my life. Two years later I have very healthy relationships with guys again and I am able to trust them, I just understand better how well you need to know them because not all are trustworthy. Don’t be naïve. I still would never feel comfortable dating someone who I didn't know well enough to look at them and know what they were thinking behind their different facial expressions and to know what their reactions are in different situations and to know that they would never purposely hurt me.

[1. Kelly said the following at 12:56 PM on Mar 30:]

1

I recently went through an experience where a male friend and I were "hanging out" in addition to relating to each other on spiritual and emotional levels. Needless to say, there was confusion and a lack of clarity as to what was developing. In the end this personal experience helped me to realize, seconded by Boundless and Carolyn McCulley (a virtual Titus 2 mentor http://solofemininity.blogs.com/), that I will not be "hanging out" as friends with a guy anymore. If he wants to get to know me better then he can ask me out on a date. Otherwise, my heart is not available for intimate friendships with a male outside of marriage. I do have guy friends and I have enjoyed their friendships as they have developed amidst a mixed group of my single friends.

Ladies, I believe our hearts are too valuable to be given out in pieces. Guard it and only share it with a man who sees it as worthy of pursuing as God intended.

And to you men, if you see us worthy of pursuing in this manner, then, by all means, go for it. You will gain so much respect from us.

[2. Aaron said the following at 1:05 PM on Mar 30:]

2

I definitely agree with what Scott said in his article. I am a little different from a lot of the guys I know in that I have never had an intimate friendship with a girl. I have plenty have female acquaintances, but no deep friendships. Moreover I have seen some of these female acquaintances suffer because they had a very close friendship with a guy and developed feelings for him that were not returned. Men and women were created for each other, that much is obvious. But they were created for marriage, and these intimate friendships simply serve to confuse both parties.

There is something related to this that I’ve been thinking about recently that occasionally I feel guilty for. Whenever I meet a single Christian girl, always in the back of my mind is the thought that if she proves to be mature and Godly, I should consider asking her out. This doesn’t mean that I go around asking everyone I meet on a date, as evidenced by the fact I’ve asked three girls out in my 22 years, but rather that I approach every new meeting with a mindset of possibility. I believe men and women were created to be together, and as I am single, I believe it’s my responsibility to have an attitude of potential towards the single Christian girls I know. Potential not of an intimate friendship, but one of marriage. My thoughts and actions are not dominated by this when I meet someone, but it is present. Sometimes I feel guilty and creepy for this, probably because it’s against the mainstream idea that girls and guys should just be good friends and wait and see if something happens. But I don’t apologize for it, I just must ensure it stays within the boundary of treating all of Christian females I interact with as sisters in Christ.

Any thoughts from some girls on whether or not you would prefer for guys to have this sort of attitude?

[3. sina said the following at 1:16 PM on Mar 30:]

3

I agree with his article 100%. I know there are some who don't agree because I've had many debates with my girlfriends about this. Perhaps this might be a weakness of mine. But I've experienced the heartbreak of falling for several guy friends. If we had not spent so much time alone perhaps I would not have 'fallen' for them. As a result, I find it hard to develop friendships with guys now because I'm still afraid that I'll keep falling for guys that I become close with.

[4. sina said the following at 1:29 PM on Mar 30:]

4

Aaron: I would rather guys have your attitude but only because I have had experience with heartbreak as a result of guy friendships. In the future I would appreciate a guy having this attitude at this point in my life.

[5. Blair said the following at 1:34 PM on Mar 30:]

5

I have a good friend who is suffering the consequences of a friendship with a guy that was plagued with lack of clear communication or defining of the relationship. It has created so much drama and heartache, I have definitely learned from her mistake.

[6. Michelle B said the following at 1:37 PM on Mar 30:]

6

Aaron:

Paul said we are not to be conformed to the pattern the world holds to. You are in the right to treat Christian women as sisters and with all purity.

I have two sisters who are in their late teens/early 20's, and I being considerably older have had many opportunities to talk with them and their friends on this issue of close guy friends. I can tell you from my own experience and from what I have seen and heard from these younger girls is that it is VERY difficult if not flat out impossible for we ladies to remain unattached in a close friendship with a man. I know some girls say it's no big deal, but the evidence I have seen would indicate that those gals are lying to themselves.

Thanks for helping your sisters in Christ to maintain a whole and pure heart for their husbands by not encouraging close friendships with them.

[7. Ariana said the following at 1:42 PM on Mar 30:]

7

Aaron, I don't think your attitude is that bad. There could be other things in it that you need to correct that you did not write about, but I don't think that approaching girls with the mindset of possibility is a bad thing. And actually, I have a similar attitude. Being a girl, I don't approach guys with the mindset that I could ask them out, but I do keep in mind that there is always a possibility there. And the consciousness of that possibility has kept my relationships pretty clear cut. I also have never had a close friend of the opposite sex, though I was very close to a couple of guy cousins of mine. Relationships with the opposite sex are valuable, but I think that good family relationships can be a good way of having them without creating a confusing situation.

Sometimes I think that I must be wierd or something, since this attitude is rare. But at the end of the day, I'm much happier with clearer boundary lines. And I've also found that this attitude helps me to draw clearer boundaries with guys who I actually am interested in, or who express interest in me.

[8. Laura said the following at 1:56 PM on Mar 30:]

8

Scott's article was helpful in distinguishing between having good friends of the opposite sex (in a communal context) as opposed to having one or more close friends of the opposite sex. I've had several close friendships with guys over the years and I have to agree that he's right that it's very, very difficult for both parties to consistently maintain the expectation that you'll be "just friends."

That said, I don't regret most of those relationships. I'm very thankful for the opportunity my close relationships with guy friends have given me to understand how men think. I don't have brothers, and it's been so good for me to get to know men in no-pressure relationships that are purely about friendship. These guys have encouraged me and helped to protect me from a couple of dating relationships that could have been bad. I think Scott's points are important, but I wonder if setting a kind of absolute standard (keeping opposite-sex friendships purely in a group context) veers towards being a little legalistic.

[9. Kristine said the following at 1:58 PM on Mar 30:]

9

I went through an experience, similar to what Kelly described and have learned the hard way. It is very difficult for guys and girls to be intimate friends without someone getting hurt. I agree with her comments- if a guy would like to know me better, he can ask me out.

[10. Kryistala said the following at 2:56 PM on Mar 30:]

10

Aaron,
Thank you!!! Yes this is a good attitude to have!! It is very nice to know that at least some guys are thinking of this. I agree with Ariana about keeping the possibility in the back of my mind as well.
I don’t know that I agree 100% with not having good friends that are guys, because growing up I did not relate to the girls. All they wanted to talk about was clothes, makeup, hair, and which guys were the cutest (keep in mind this was in grade school and junior high). I had no interest in that at all at the time. I just wanted to play and have fun. As adults though we think differently and things are not the same. So there is lots of room for friendship, but not the one on one friendship I enjoyed as a child. I know my heart and that I would start to think some thing was there that was not. So perhaps I do agree in my own way…….

[11. anonymous said the following at 3:04 PM on Mar 30:]

11

I pretty much agree with what the article said. I can certainly say that if I'd known what I know now on this subject that I would have done some things differently.

In my case, I was trying to be friends with a young lady who had been hurt in a relationship before and was afraid of committment. At the same time she needed a man to affirm her and make her feel secure.

Well, I really liked her and thought to myself, "What she needs is someone like me to win back her trust; someone to show her the kind of loyalty and honor that a man is supposed to demonstrate." (Guys, I caution you DON'T TRY THIS. Only God can heal a woman's heart and restore her trust.)

To make a long story short, by always being there for her I took away her incentive to commit; her respect for me decreased (because I had basically thrown myself down as a doormat); and I started to feel resentment over being used and taken for granted.

Had I maintained my dignity by walking away I would have been doing both her and myself a big favor. Plus in time our relationship might very well have worked out.

Once again, I point out to Boundless that guys aren't the only ones afraid to commit. Also, how about some articles for women on letting go of hurts from past relationships.

[12. James said the following at 3:19 PM on Mar 30:]

12

Kelly said, "Ladies, I believe our hearts are too valuable to be given out in pieces. Guard it and only share it with a man who sees it as worthy of pursuing as God intended."

It is a statement which I heartilly agree with, and from the guy's point, here's why:

Even when I as a guy want to hang out with a girl and develop a close friendship with her, if she doesn't want to date me, but we pursue a close personal friendship anyway, then when I start to develop feelings for her (this is what USUALLY happens), I'm in for a big heart crash when I finally DO ask her out.

So girls, by being guarded with your hearts in this manner, you also are helping protect the hearts of those same guys.

And guys, same goes for US!

[13. sina said the following at 3:21 PM on Mar 30:]

13

anonymous: I agree, there should be more articles about getting over past hurts for women (and men too that struggle). Before I was saved I had a few awful experiences with the opposite sex and then when I got saved I thought I left that behind (which I did for the most part) but then each Christian single guy has turned out to act the same way (proof that we are all sinners saved by grace!). Anyway, I still deal with stuff sometimes especially when a new guy tries to get to know me. I sort of get reserved so I don't get hurt again like for the 10th time! LOL!

[14. Darin said the following at 3:59 PM on Mar 30:]

14

A word to the ladies: While I agree that it's the man's responsibility to define the relationship and to not string you along or use you to satisfy his need for companionship (without a committment), you've got to realize that there are guys out there who WILL DO THAT if you let them. (It's not right...but unfortunately it's often a reality.)

The good news is that you don't have to tolerate it. If a guy asks you out somewhere one-on-one but doesn't define his intentions you have every right to tell him, "I've made the decision not to go out with guys one-on-one unless I know their intentions."

I agree; you shouldn't have to do that. But isn't it better than being strung along and used? Set standards for yourself and hold guys to it.

[15. Jethro said the following at 4:52 PM on Mar 30:]

15

Wow, I think I am in almost the opposite situation to some people here, especially Aaron.

As a male, the majority of my close friendships are actually with females. Now yes, it is definitely possible that in this situation one, or both, of you may become attracted to the other. I can also tell you that it is definitely possible for a male and a female to become and remain great friends without this ever happening.

A general observation: I find it interesting when people say they don't form close friendships with members of the opposite sex in order to avoid falling for them and 'giving away a piece of their heart'. Really, what is that attitude? Do these people also avoid traveling in cars in order to avoid crashing? Or never drink soda in order to avoid high blood sugar levels and diabetes?

Life is nothing but the sum of our experiences. If you avoid friendships to 'protect your heart' you may end up with a heart that's not worth protecting....

[16. Aaron said the following at 5:44 PM on Mar 30:]

16

Thanks all who commented on my question. It’s encouraging.

Jethro, do you have that attitude that you should drive 150 around sharp turns because it’s more fun? Or stand in the middle of a busy street to laugh as people swerve to miss you? No, because you’re guaranteed to end up in a tree and under a car.

I have girls who I consider my friends, but we are not confidants. Jumping out of a plane without a parachute might be more fun on the way down, but the in the end the one with the parachute is going to have a better experience.

[17. DS said the following at 7:13 PM on Mar 30:]

17

I would like to address a point which I believe has been construed, and carried on in a skewed manner.

I continue to read about and listen to women who explain their adamant stance of waiting for a guy who will pursue them. NOTE: Re-read the first comment attached to this article's blog,

"Ladies, I believe our hearts are too valuable to be given out in pieces. Guard it and only share it with a man who sees it as worthy of pursuing as God intended."

In all honesty, this sounds nice and valiant for both parties, but it's fundamentally incorrect. Romantic relationships aren't about the pursuit of one-another. Rightly understood, they are about a joint-pursuit of God's heart, that is, fellowship. As noted in many articles before, a question to ask yourself when viewing a potential romantic relationship in biblical understanding is, "Do I serve /seek God with more of my all within this relationship or by myself." The place at which you grow in Christ more is of most importance (Still, be gentle and act in love). God didn't create you for another person, He created you for Himself, and in romantic relationships that other person gets to enjoy a uniquely intimate fellowship with you, likened unto God's relationship with us and His own fellowship within the Trinity.

(NOTE: Kelly, it's obvious that I am writing this from an imperfect understanding of your understanding, and so I apologize if I interpreted your comment incorrectly, but the seemingly widespread, glamorized, idea that men and women are made for each other, even if it appears virtuous, is dangerous.)

[18. Jamie said the following at 7:30 PM on Mar 30:]

18

I completely agree with this article. I wonder how to handle situations in which the relationship starts out and develops in community but because of timing or distance (someone moves or the community is only physically close for a limited time, i.e. mission trip) but then continues over distance. In my experience, the use of phone and email is nearly always just between the two people and lends an air of isolation even if it is not intended by either party.

Is it possible to continue a relationship without interest from one side or the other in the natural isolation of distance?

[19. Kari said the following at 7:54 PM on Mar 30:]

19

I have never actually seen this happen. I am the close female confidante of many good men (about 8); they come to me for consolation, advice, the highs and lows of life, to get a new perspective. We hang out, often one-on-one or in groups of three or four. I love them dearly. Some are very godly men. Some are even single and cute. I wouldn't date any of them. None of them would date me. We have close relationships where I am often the only girl in that circle of their three most immediate friends, but the clarity of intention is striking. The direction I am taking my life is different from the ones they are going; our closeness enables to see each other honestly, and also to assess with honesty our lack of compatability as romantic partners, too.

What I have seen happen in my life over and over instead is that a person who doesn't know me especially well gets interested in me based on a couple of short social interactions, tries to imitate these other close relationships, fails either to initiate that closness or my interest, and gives up feeling frustrated they never "had a chance" with me. (They didn't, we'll be honest.) The worst mistake I ever made was trying to date a guy I didn't know very well. It ended messily and with both our hearts strewn in pieces.

I'd much rather risk one of my close friendships changing shape and knowing I am certain in the character and heart of my true friends than blunder again and again through commitments to guys I hardly know. Knowing the hearts and minds of these men who are my friends has taught me a lot about relating to men, being friends with men, and what I know will enable me to push towards a strong marriage if those opportunities come along.

[20. Adam said the following at 10:41 PM on Mar 30:]

20

Aaron,

You said:
Jethro, do you have that attitude that you should drive 150 around sharp turns because it’s more fun? Or stand in the middle of a busy street to laugh as people swerve to miss you? No, because you’re guaranteed to end up in a tree and under a car.

Since when does having a close relationship with the opposite sex GUARANTEE that you will end up hurt? I would say that there is just as much of a chance that you will end up hurt in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex, as you will with someone of the same sex.

Again, we have to come back to this unacceptible ethical mistake that it is somehow your environment [who you are friends with] that causes you to sin. Jesus himself said that it is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what comes out. James says that we sin because of our own evil lusts.

As far as the article goes, I found the biblical arguments very unconvincing. When you have to describe your best text as a "broad (but sound) implication," I would say that you are already walking on thin ice. Secondly, I would wonder how it can be a sound implication when it totally violates Paul's context. Paul is not addressing confidant intimacy at all. He is addressing sanctification, and abstinance from sexual immorality. The "defrauding" here refers back to illicit sexual intercourse. The Greek term porneia is clearly used back in verse 3, and the term "passionate lust" in verse 5 strengthens this interpretation. Nowhere do these words refer to any type of psychological confidance.

The other verses used just simply beg the question. The author admits that they only thing they teach is that we must love others, not harm our neighbor, favor weaker brothers, and encourage them. However, then he makes a huge leap in logic and concludes that confidal relationships with the opposite sex don't do these things. That is a huge leap, and one that must be proven.

The only real attempt to do that is to appeal to the author's experience. However, does "it is my experience that" translate into "it is always, or even mostly the case that?" Obviously not.

Worse than that, we cannot just say things are wrong for the sake of expediency. In other words, we cannot just say things are wrong because it would help us in our cultural situation. A brother on another blog posted and interesting quote from Dr. John Murray, and I think it is relevant here as well:

"On certain details of life and behavior the Lord has not bound us by law to one course of action rather than another. If we follow one course rather than the other we have not sinned, because we have not transgressed law...There is always the tendency to invest with the sanction of law certain courses of action which considerations of expediency may dictate. Consequently, courses of action against which there is no law are liable to be branded as wrong because they contravene the prescriptions of expediency. Expediency knows no law, and when expediency is erected into law the sphere of liberty is invaded and confusion of conscience results. It is a distinction of similar import that the apostle makes in this chapter" -"Principles of Conduct", pg71 (year 1957).

I expecially like Murray's statement that "expediency knows no law." In other words, we cannot make what we see in our own experience crutial to our definition of what is right and wrong, because such thinking knows no law.

All in all, I *do* think the hurt in relationships needs to stop. On that we can all agree. However, the way to do that is to train people to be obedient to God's law, and not to give them some other command that is based on the expediency of the situation. Only when people desire to be obedient to God's commands will the hurt ever stop.

[21. Felicity said the following at 11:07 PM on Mar 30:]

21

I am in the midst of one of these 'relationships.' I've always been a friend to my male buddies, but this one friend has gotten too close. I've always prided myself on not falling for my friends, but I have failed miserably this time. I see that I made the mistake of becoming emotionally involved. I now see that when I was friends with males before they were purposeful friendships: With one we'd watch our favorite baseball team, and with another we'd enjoy hiking and other outdoor activities. The conversation never dug too deep. Now, I've fallen for what has become my best friend and his heart belongs to another (lucky) girl. I don't want to drop our friendship like yesterday's news, but really...I see no alternative. I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced this and would have any tips...

[22. BDB said the following at 11:47 PM on Mar 30:]

22

I think that Kari says it better than I could. I will grant you that for a close male-female friendship to last after one of them gets married to someone else, the other party will need to truly relinquish any romantic hopes. Once that happens, though, a friendship is very possible. And as someone who took a girl to the high-school prom that I barely knew, Kari is very right that it's better to know people better through friendship. It helps so much - especially by developing a track record of conflict resolution with that person without the added pressure of "dating."

The pain and embarassment associated with male-female "buddy" relationships sounds like garden-variety unrequited love. That's not exactly a new problem. Try reading a few Jane Austen novels if you don't believe me. Saying that men and women shouldn't be friends will not magically eliminate unrequited love.

So, on a practical basis, if you're the one feeling it, set a time limit. If your feelings don't fade after six months, and they don't initiate, make a decision. Men who don't read this blog may never have heard of the concept of men initiating. You can always give them a copy of Passion and Purity and see what they do. If they disappear, you have your answer, and you only "wasted" six months. (OK, I only tried this once, and she didn't read the book, but she didn't run away either.)

Just don't wait around for five years.

[23. Leah T said the following at 1:09 AM on Mar 31:]

23

I've had at least one 'friendship' that resembled an actual relationship so much that people thought we were really dating (People as in most of our church, including his parents!). The truth is, we were never romantically involved and we were always honest with one another about that; and while that is a good thing, the fact that our emotional attachment was so deep that it made our "clear communications" more ambiguious than not was a very, very bad thing. We had, without intending to, filled a role in eachother's lives that should only exist between a man and a woman within the context of marriage. Please understand, I am happy beyond words for this friend (who was recently married to another girl) and I feel so honored to share in the joy that he's found. But he hurt me. Again, it was unintentional, but it did happen. He found someone to officially take on the role that I had only been filling in for - and what a blessing that was - and I was left with a gap in my life in the place where he had been. We are good friends still, but there is no longer that dependency or that intimacy - neither of us is acting as the 'temporary fix' for the loneliness of the other.

A little over a year ago, I started to become really convicted about this particular friendship and the extent of our involvement in each other's lives. While I loved my friend, and love him still, I understood that there would be a point when he wasn't the most important guy in my life, and I wasn't the most important girl in his. Furthermore, there really isn't an appropriate runner-up position. "The girl I'm closest to in all the world, aside from my wife" just sounds lame to say the least. I pulled away and as a result, he developed the relationship which is now his marriage.

So now I'm embarking on a new friendship pattern -- one where I'm spending less one-on-one time with single guys and more community time with a larger group of friends. Right now, I'm finding that a little strange, if only because I've always been close with guys and for the past twelve years have had a male "best friend". It makes sense though. I've been very carefull in romantic relationships to guard my heart and am in fact extremely jealouse, for my future husband's sake, of the few peices I have given out in the past. So why set up "friendships" where the probability of developing unwarranted emotional attachment is so high? It's just not necessary. Not when it is possible to enjoy fulfilling friendships within the proper context.

[24. Ting said the following at 1:35 AM on Mar 31:]

24

I think Scott hits the nail on the head with this one, especially when it comes to enjoying the convenient and delaying the good. I have a few friends who have a lot of opposite gender friends than same gender friends ( who hang out one on one ).

And when I ask them about this, they all say the same thing. The guy would say "It's easier to talk to girls because they open up more." The girl would say "It's easier to hang out with guys because they are not that complicated." As Paul reminds us "Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial"

Frankly I have had opposite gender friends whom I have spent one on one time with. Looking back at it, I think it was a mistake to connect emotionally without the commitment of a romantic relationship intent on marriage. I must admit and agree with my friend that yes, it was easier to talk with girls (for w/e reason, nicer, willing to listen, etc.)but it doesn't necessarily justify the action. What's easier isn't always right. We often talk of sexual purity in Christian circles but what about emotional purity? I think it does cheapen the marriage altar a bit when you share your heart so many times (with opposite gender) it does make one wonder what makes marriage so special.

Practically speaking I think it would be healthy and wise for both genders to build more same gender friendships.
Once your opposite gender friend ties the knot or vice versa, the only people you should hang out with are your same gender friends anyways.

I don't think the contents or the conclusion of Scott's article is legalistic. In fact its very countercultural and I'm surprised not more people have rejected it more outrightly.

As we know, anything not mentioned in Scripture is left for conscience. In terms of dating/romance Scripture is definitely not explicit on it. But the principles drawn from Scripture (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8, 1 Corinthians 6:12) would seem to indicate spending one on one time with opposite gender (without the intent of dating for marriage) is a bad idea.

[25. Daniel Pennant said the following at 2:44 AM on Mar 31:]

25

I definitely agree with what Scott said in his article.In my experience, the use of phone and email is nearly always just between the two people and lends an air of isolation even if it is not intended by either party.
So when are single ,make some male or female friends is good.

[26. Jen said the following at 7:17 AM on Mar 31:]

26

Jamie- i too wonder about that question! I met a guy last summer, and after only knowing him for a couple weeks, he went back to the other side of the coutnry for school. We have kept in touch since last September via email and instant messenger, and over the Christmas break I admitted to him that I liked him as more than a friend... he moved back, now we still keep in touch but I know he is not ready to be in a relationship and expressed this to me, and that he didnt know if it would ever happen with us... which breaks my heart... Its a mesy situation, and I think its the kind of thing that will inevitably happen if guys and girls keep in touch long distance, with not a long base of friendship beforehand..

[27. Leah said the following at 7:44 AM on Mar 31:]

27

I'm still a bit lost as to what Boundless or Scott is calling an intimate friendship... :S

Like, I don't really have problems with being what I'd call "good friends" with a guy outside of a relationship. But I was never one to hang out with a particular guy 1 on 1 outside of a relationship (except a stupid high school fling type thing :P).

When it comes to *real* 'close friendships' with guys (not like the teenage fling thing described above), I had/have what I'd call "good friends" who are guys like I said before. I will hug them in greeting, have decent-lengthed conversations with them and them only (either online, or in a room though there may be plenty of other people in the room) etc. There is one particular guy who shares his "girl problems" with me and I give him advice etc about that. Does this constitute an 'intimate friendship'? I mean, I'm in a relationship with a great Christian guy, and have these "good friendships" outside that- sharing nowhere near the closeness me and my boyfriend share. We have 1 on 1 conversations and share things you wouldn't share with just anybody, but it's nowhere near the intimacy involved in an actual relationship. I don't see a problem with this, but feel like it may be what Boundless or Scott looks on as an 'intimate friendship'.

If that is the case, then I don't think, as a blanket statement, that intimate friendships are wrong. It's when you start having regular 1 on 1 (alone) conversations/meetings with a guy, help each other out (like with uni work or travel) regularly that questions might be warranted. (Note I'm not saying helping out someone of the other sex in this way is wrong- it's only when it's occurring between the two of you regularly.) And I think it's important to view these things together. Ie. a guy and girl who do their homework together might be perfectly fine. A guy who regularly gives a girl a lift to uni because he lives around the corner from her might be fine. But it's when the same guy is giving the same girl help with her homework...and lifts to various places... and have coffee together in breaks at uni... and... I think you get the point.

Ok I know that was long and a bit repetitive but it's late and that's the way my thinking is going at the moment :P I hope you see what I'm saying- that I think a certain degree of closeness is fine, and it really depends on what constitutes an 'intimate friendship'.

[28. Kari said the following at 9:46 AM on Mar 31:]

28

Ting, I disagree with you on a lot of points, but I'm frankly baffled by what you mean by this: "Once your opposite gender friend ties the knot or vice versa, the only people you should hang out with are your same gender friends anyways."

Watching the example of my own parents, who are deeply godly people, my parents have dear friends of both sexes, especially with other married couples. My parents have been going strong 31 years, it has been a privilege and a joy for me to see my parents act out godly friendships of support and accoutability both with single and with married friends both male and female. People would have to be very, very rediculous, to hold out hope for love when dealing with godly married couples.

I think a great deal of my thoughts on this matter come from C.S. Lewis' right observations in The Four Loves that romance or eros is a pervision of true friendship (I'll sum up, the quote itself is long); metaphorically speaking, friends do not look at each other but towards a similar object of interest, their interest in each other is not in "friendship" as a goal but in sharing the things they both love or find valuable. They are compared to travellers on the same journey. Lovers look at each other. If two friends are too involved in looking at each other to be heading towards a shared "destination", they don't really meet my definition of friendship anyway - yes, then, that is a defrauded love.

[29. Rebekah said the following at 10:37 AM on Mar 31:]

29

Felicity: I too, have been in your situation. It was one of the most painful times in my life. It hurts to know that the man you have fallen for will never return your feelings. While it seems harsh and unkind, I really believe the best thing to do is to completely let go of your friendship with this guy. I have found (in my experience anyway) that the only way to really get over someone is to drop all communication with them. I have also found that time and prayer and the best healers for situations such as these. Don't be afraid to take that step and let go...you are only prolonging your hurt if you don't. I commend you on being wise enough to see that the hardest thing to do (letting go of the friendship) is also most likely the best thing to do.

All of this is just my opinion, and comes from what I have experienced in my own life. Just remember Jeremiah 29:11...God has plans of good things for your life, and not of harm.

[30. Ting said the following at 11:22 AM on Mar 31:]

30

Kari, to clarify, I meant that once a person is married, it would be very unwise for him or her to hang out 'one on one' with the opposite gender. I'm all in favor of cross gender friendships in the context of groups as Scott wrote, but especially when one is married. I guess the married couple would have to discuss that between themselves on what kind of friendships is allowed once they are married.

As Scott pointed out, no where in Scripture do we have examples of opposite gender friendships. Nor do we have any commandment that explicitly prohibits it. This goes back to an issue of conscience, where one persons conscience may allow certain things and another's may not.

[31. Anne said the following at 12:16 PM on Mar 31:]

31

Felicity,

I like Rebekah have been down this road and I concure with her advise. I would strongly recomend cutting off all contact with him, not just for your sake but for his. And even if you feel like your feelings for him have faded, don't allow the relationship to pick up agein. I did and had to go through the whole mess of breaking it off a second time.

I also want to warn you, he will not like it. Just as he is important to you, you are important to him, even if he doesn't want to date you. He is loosing someone he is very close to and he will likely fight to keep that relationship. Prepare yourself for comments such as "I just want to be your friend" and "Why are you doing this?" and "I thought you were better than this"

Yes it will hurt, and if your like me there wont be a best friend to catch you, because he was the best friend. But I promise, there will be light at the end of the tunnel, and God is faithful. I grew so much closer to Him during this time in my life.

Jethero,

As much as your intentions may be pure, odds are you will unwittingly do this to one of your "many" girl buddies. After reading many of your posts on boundless it seems that I will not be able to convince you to change your potentially distructive bahavior, so let me at least ask you this: If a girl ever comes to you to end a friendship as Felicity is about to do, please let her go nicely. Do not fight her or try to keep the friendship going. If you cared about her at all, just let her go.

[32. Darin said the following at 2:17 PM on Mar 31:]

32

Leah, I think you have an excellent point concerning the ambiguity of what constitutes an "intimate" friendship. It all seems pretty subjective to me.

For example, in some parts of the country greeting someone with a hug means nothing more than a handshake...where in other parts of the country it would be considered a strong romantic gesture.

I think that BDB makes a good point too that eliminating opposite sex friendships isn't in itself going to solve the problems. For example, suppose that we were able to completely eliminate opposite sex friendships. In a few years, Boundless would be writing articles about weather or not it's acceptable for us to smile at each other across the room.

So, while I agree with Scott in principle; I think that we need to steer clear of trying to define an "intimate" friendship by a list of behaviors. Behaviors can serve as warning signs that we need to take an inventory of our feelings (and for us guys it's a sign that we need to define the relationship and take an inventory of the other person's feelings) but ultimately it's all a matter of perspective.

This leads me to my point that the ultimate responsibility for a person's feelings lies with himself/herself. This shouldn't take anything away from the responsibility that we have to each other in that regard. I just think that far too often people fail to see their own role in getting hurt, thus they remain vulnerable to it happening again. It also causes bitterness and delays healing when we can't see our own role in the situation.

[33. Darin said the following at 3:03 PM on Mar 31:]

33

Jamie, I've experienced exactly the situation that you mentioned (i.e. an opposite sex friend moves away and the only way to communicate is one-on-one via phone or e-mail). In my experience we kept our e-mails to just once every two or three weeks and everything was fine. Ultimately though I think that it simply all boils down to how you feel toward that person and how they feel toward you. (And how well defined the relationship is.)

[34. Charles H. said the following at 3:33 PM on Mar 31:]

34

I think the most important thing for these relationships is for people to be honest, first and foremost with themselves. Why? Because no matter how much you want to be honest with other people, you can't until you're honest with yourself about how you feel.

I have good friends who are men, and good friends who are women. If I am doing something with a female friend, and concerned that she might infer an interest I don't actually have, I try to clarify in some respectful way what my intentions are. My typical litmus test is whether what I'm doing would be inappropriate if she were married -- things like one-on-one dates. In this regard I think Scott would agree with me.

I do, however, think we have to be careful when comparing a deep emotional bond with a sexual one. While I agree that married people should reserve that kind of bond with the opposite sex for each other, simply because it can otherwise lead to unfaithfulness, I think the comparison breaks down beyond there. After all, there's nothing wrong with having an emotionally close friendship with someone of the same sex; in fact, that's what Scott appears to argue for. If the relationship were a physical one, this would of course be inappropriate. That in itself shows the difference between an emotional and physical bond, and why we must be careful when attempting to equate the two.

As for the notion that friendships will deepen, sometimes become romantic, etc... yes, this can sometimes be painful when the feeling isn't mutual, but it also leads to an awful lot of marriages. Again, honesty is key.

[35. Christine said the following at 4:00 PM on Mar 31:]

35

If I had read this several years ago, I would have been outraged and would have commented on the number of male friends that I had and how great they were, etc. Now, looking back, I was too close to some of them and as a result, one of us got hurt - sometimes me and sometimes the guy.

From experience, I do know that it is completely possible for two people of the opposite sex to be good friends and it be completely void of defrauded love. But, also from experience, I think that that is the exception rather than the rule.

I do still have guy friends and I am willing to go on a walk, stop for coffee, etc. with a guy whom I consider a friend, but I won't let those friendships become so emotionally entangling. When I need a guy's opinion, I call my dad, my brother or one of my cousins. These are the men in my life that I CAN safely lean out without the relationship being inappropriately emotional.

I for one am not interested in being a man's buddy. I'm tired of being the "sister" - I want to be someone's wife.

[36. Bethany said the following at 4:14 PM on Mar 31:]

36

I fully agree with Scott's take on this. I tried to get a guy I used to go out with to understand that having a lot of close female friends was a bad idea all around. For one, he was leading them on, since women tend to think spending more one-on-one time with a guy means he's interested. And secondly, it doesn't make sense to have close friends of the opposite sex that you're not pursuing romantically because you'll have to drop them when you get married. It is most definitely inappropriate to have a close friend of the opposite sex that you spend time with one-on-one when you're married, so why should it be any different when you're single? They should remain one of your many friends that you see and hang out with as a group, or you should be pursuing a more serious commitment.

[37. Alina said the following at 6:06 PM on Mar 31:]

37

I can understand the point of view and I've had gotten hurt by close friendships and mix signals before, but I still have close friendships with guys that have been a huge blessing from God. Do thoughts of potential marriage material come into our heads...yeah sometimes. I think the difference from my close friendships with guys now and those in the past are three things. 1. Our relationship with God comes before all things, 2. Day to day we ask ourselves how are we showing the love of Christ to each other, and 3. 100% honesty in communication up front. We tell it like it is - sometimes it's not fun but consistant genuine communication is really important. Whether or not something else comes out of a close friendship is all God's doing.

It's hard and we screw up, but we always put the relationship in God's hands and trust Him because in every relationship between strangers, friends, siblings, parents and children, spouses there is always a third party - God. When you remember that and when you put trust in his plan - great blessings happen.

Now I could be a fluke and it's not that I haven't been hurt by having close guy friends. And maybe that my being the only girl in a family full of boys has given me a different mindset (my best friend is my baby brother). I do believe that men and women need to be careful with each other because we are made for each other on a very intimate level and without God's presence in our relationships - we're going to crash and burn. I also believe that God can bless guy/girl friendship as long as the it glorifies Him. As far as the arguement of how the assumed person your supposed to get married reacts to these friendships..God will work that out too (but again all relationships should glorify God).

[38. Melissa said the following at 8:34 PM on Mar 31:]

38

All I can say, is that I used to be one to think that I could be in close friendship situations with guys, so I had a couple of VERY good guy friends. We got exceptionally close and that relationship led to intimate feelings on both our parts. We were afraid of risking our friendship so neither of us was going to pursue anything beyond it, but to make a long story short, that didn't last long. We ended up in a 'defined' sort-of-dating situation. (Definition meaning that we aknowledged our feelings for each other).
For various reasons, that relationship was not one that would work, or could have the possibility of marriage as an outcome. The outcome was that I subconsciously gave my heart away through the emotional intimacy of this friendship, and am on the other side with a broken heart and a lot of emotional recovery to face.
I see both sides of the coin from these posts, but as someone who's been on both sides of the coin, I can't be in intimate relationships with guys unless it's in a defined dating/courtship setting.
Now, I'm not saying that I don't have guy friends, (I have many whom I respect and love dearly) but these relationships are largely in a community sense, and these guys don't have an "in-road" to my life/struggles/etc.
Jethro: I don't doubt your impartiality in your friendships with those girls, but I would encourage you to guard their hearts and emotions with a very conscious effort. We, (at least in my female experiences,) have very fragile hearts, and in all honesty we crave that male emotional intimacy almost more than the physical or even spiritual intimacy more characteristic of a defined male-female dating relationship. Sometimes we don't realize the depth of our emotional dependence on those 'friendships' until it's too late.

[39. BDB said the following at 9:42 PM on Mar 31:]

39

Kari - I will say that C.S. Lewis has influenced my thoughts on this topic, particularly the chapter on Friendship in "The 4 Loves." Indeed, friends with a common goal remain my friends decades later - and like Lewis suggested, they married similar people and their spouses are now friends. The circle expanded. This worked very well with friends who have the same passion for volunteering that I do.

On the other hand, if you're spending 10-20 hours alone with someone each week - and at least one of you doesn't think you're dating - it will end in tears.

I suppose it's an ancient Klingon proverb that tells us "Rejection is a dish best served cold." If you sever a relationship all at once, that's how it will come across. Besides, if you're interested in him and he HAS read some of Elisabeth Elliot's books, he'll assume that when you decline all his invitations you're not interested. (I'm starting to confuse myself now.)

But there is an old etiquette suggestion called "distancing." If you pull back to, say 1-2 hours a week, tops, and limit the subject matter to specific areas like work or church or calculus homework, it will affect you a lot less, and you're not investing enough time to be a real intimate confidante. Don't help him figure out his girlfriend. You can even say something like, "I don't want people to avoid asking me out because they think we're together." Lunch or coffee once a week is plenty for "just friends." Then he can make a decision. You're drawing a boundary line, not rejecting the person. And I've read several biographies of men who didn't get off the dime until the woman forced him to make a decision. Try Colin Powell's and read about what pushed him to propose.

I was trying to decide whether to bring this topic up, but hey, I'm feeling adventurous. One thing I haven't noticed any Evangelical Christian writing on the topic of how to approach a situation where a woman you're interested is in a quasi-relationship with some guy that is clearly going nowhere. Now, I know that the "Wild at Heart" crowd would just say to barge right in - if a man wants a woman to himself he needs to propose. But I'll bet that topic would get some good comments going, too...

[40. BDB said the following at 10:00 PM on Mar 31:]

40

What the heck, I'll share a true story.

When I was a freshman in college, I woman I just met told me that she didn't believe in "dating." She then immediately asked me if I wanted to go to dinner.

"Now?" "Yes, now."

"But, I don't have any money with me." "I'll pay."

We went to Sizzler. She drove, she paid, I had a great time.

And I came to realize that a lot of women said they "don't date" in their first conversation with someone in order to preclude someone from pressuring them into a physical relationship. It did scare those kinds of guys off. So, if you're going to eliminate frienship also, it's going to be even more difficult for people to get to know each other.

That's my $.02

[41. Ariana said the following at 10:09 PM on Mar 31:]

41

BDB,

About barging in on a "quasi-relationship that is obviously going nowhere." You would probably need to be very sure about the nature of the relationship and that the girl actually is dissatisfied...though if she is, she probably shouldn't be sharing that with you. Anyway, there's a risk of seeming disrespectful if this is a relationship that she genuinely cares about. However (though I've never seen or experienced this), I could see myself at least being at least somewhat receptive to another guy who very clearly expressed what he was thinking, what he saw in that relationship (he doesn't treat you right, etc.), and what he wanted. But he had better really want something.

And as far as thinking that "If a man wants a woman to himself he has to propose," I think that's very true. Elisabeth Eliot has a quote which basically asks why a young woman would give her undivided time and energy to a man who had not made any permanent committment to it. But anyway...

[42. Felicity said the following at 10:11 PM on Mar 31:]

42

Anne:
You are right. He has told me that "we're just friends; we're doing nothing wrong." He is getting married in a matter of days and I have told him that our daily phone calls, emails, etc. must end to honor their marriage and my sanity. He's not getting it. I told him that I will not continue a close friendship with another woman's husband. He thinks I'm silly; I think I'm right.

Thanks to everyone for their advice.

[43. BDB said the following at 12:36 AM on Apr 1:]

43

Felicity:

I concur with Anne and Rebekah.

If he's getting married in a few days, he shouldn't be calling you every day. My female friends who stayed friends pretty much disappeared for weeks at a time in the months leading up to their weddings.

The ONLY exception I can think of is if you're a bridesmaid and/or you're organizing part of their wedding or reception, in which case the bride would be calling you every day.

[44. Ellie said the following at 7:47 AM on Apr 1:]

44

First of all, I appreciate what Aaron said, and second Ariana's response. There is that element of possibility, and I don't think it's necessarily creepy or weird to recognize that. If it became a preoccupation, or was part of desperation, then it might need to be worked on, but (in my humble, and often wrong) opinion, it's normal to consider, especially prayerfully.

If anyone wanted to respond with some advice, I'd really appreciate it. I had (have) a friendship like the ones described. It started with the guy calling me when I came home from college for the summer for group get-togethers, where, mysteriously, no one else materialized. Then came the understanding, verbalized on his part, that whenever I wasn't at work, we would get together. We watched movies, hiked, went to the mall....I wasn't comfortable with this without some iota of clarification. Were we dating? DTR, bitte! Believing in guy initiation, I didn't want to, or think it was my place to, start one. But I didn't know what to do. And I really didn't want to be mean or rude or anything - I care for him as a Christian brother, as a basic human being, after all. I didn't (don't) know how to "kindly" reject. So I kind of just went along with it. After some prayer and soul-searching, I realized for sure that I didn't want to date this fellow. After 6 weeks of zero clarity and this awkward relationship, it was time for me to go back to school, and I thought that that might be enough to cut it off. It wasn't. He backed off for a while, then went full speed ahead at Christmas. I turned him down several times, citing various reasons (doing things with the fam, girls' night with my best friend, etc.), unless it really was a group gathering. I gave in once - he asked me to dinner and a movie. I said yes to dinner, mind made up that I was going to have to tell him that I couldn't continue this way. And then....I didn't have the guts for it. But through the course of the evening (my vague replies to what my post-college plans were, paying my half of the bill, etc.), I thought he got it. For a few days, nothing. Then he called again. I was leaving town for school, and (again) that was my out. Now he's emailing again. All this without having been "officially" asked out, under the terms of friendship. But it's become apparent to me and to mutual friends that he thinks of it, or wants it to be, more, despite the lack of relationship-defining talk.

That was a long-winded background, but there it be. If anyone had any thoughts on how I should proceed, kindly, gently, and as his Christian sister, I'd sure appreciate it.

[45. Leah said the following at 8:23 AM on Apr 1:]

45

Ariana,

If a girl is in a quasi-relationship and she 'genuinely cares' about it, she still needs to be shaken out of it. Quasi-relationships are no-nos, no matter how you come to the realisation that you are in one (whether it's taking a DTR test, or having someone else barge in on you, or whatever). If a guy were to barge in on that relationship, what has she lost? A relationship that wasn't getting her anywhere? Besides, it's not saying her and the first guy can't still be friends. She hasn't lost him- just the undefined, precarious, quasi-natured relationship between them. They would then probably be put into a scenario where they could establish a proper, healthy friendship, having been given a wake-up call.

And if you made that comment because it's possible you yourself are in this situation, please know that I myself have been in these quasi-relationships.

They were both with non-Christian guys who were interested in me, flirted with me, knew I wouldn't date them, but still continued flirting (one of them simply because he could, and was, getting the intimacy, and the other one because he was hoping to change my mind)- and I, enjoying their attention, flirted back. How did both 'quasi-relationships' end? With them getting a girlfriend and me getting hurt.
Guy #1: simply started dating this other girl when I went out of town for a few weeks, and we never spoke of the attraction between us, we never spoke of what happened, until a few months after he started dating (and consequently broke up with) this other girl. (And then it was just one conversation.)
Guy #2 (the one hoping to change my mind)and I had many DTR type talks, and while he acknowledged we would probably never date, he continued to treat me as- and I continued to happily fill the position of- his special girl. Until he developed an interest in another girl, at which point he discussed it with me. And even though everything was out in the open with us, it still hurt seeing someone else fill that position of his special girl (the position I shouldn't have been in anyway). (Not that he stopped flirting with me- *cough*PLAYER*cough*).

So anyway. I did genuinely care for those friendships- I still talk to the second guy every so often online (I talk to the first guy when I can, but that's rarely). But I needed to be shaked out of those quasi-relationships, and had true husband material seen me and wanted me so much he'd barge in and rescue me from something like that, I would have been eternally grateful. I knew the situations I was in were wrong, but because I valued the friendships (not to mention enjoyed the attention :P *rolls eyes*) I continued on in them.

I hope that explains why a guy barging in on quasi-relationships is not a bad thing.

[46. Leah said the following at 8:28 AM on Apr 1:]

46

Oh, and Kari- check out the Ladder Theory. I'll bet those guys *would* date you, except for the fact they know you wouldn't date them.

Ladder Theory: http://www.ochuk.com/?p=935

[47. Charles H. said the following at 11:31 AM on Apr 1:]

47

Felicity: You have it right. He should be giving that attention to his wife, not confusing you with it.

[48. Emily said the following at 4:06 PM on Apr 1:]

48

I'll get right to the point. I'm introverted and pretty quiet in groups of more than three. Whenever I try to get a word in, a more extroverted person either talks over me, or I feel like I'm being "fake" just to get people to notice I'm there. This especially happens in a group where I am new. I have noticed that the only guys to ever notice me have been ones I got to spend one-on-one time with. They did not pick me out of the group because I'm rarely the most outgoing. While I have had experience with heartbreak from excessive, undefined one-on-one time, the idea of mostly hanging out in groups puts me at a disadvantage in all kinds of relationships. I'm a pretty mysterious girl. How is a guy supposed to get to know me if we can't sit down and talk one-on-one?

[49. Melissa said the following at 6:22 PM on Apr 1:]

49

Ellie: I've been in a couple of similar situations similar to yours and it's never easy. To be honest, I've never handled it exactly like I would've liked to in hindsight. One time I freaked out and avoided the guy completely (which was difficult because we went to the same church and were involved in a lot of the same activities). My rudeness ended up temporarily ruining any friendship we DID have before he started pursuing me. So I definitely won't recommend that approach.

The other time, I didn't really say anything at all, and as it happened, the young man actually asked my dad if he could court me. I said no, so my father actually got me out of that one. Nonetheless, things were slightly akward between us for a while.

Since you have the distance factor on your side, and he's emailing you, I would find a way to let him know via that venue. You could respond to his emails with unpersonal (yet not rude) shorter replies that don't initiate another response. That still leaves room for potential lack of understanding on his part though. I think that a carefully thought out, gentle email that lets him know that you appreciate him as a friend would be good, but also state clearly that this phase of your life doesn't allow for any other kind of relationship. To me it seems that you could communicate that clearly without causing him unnecessary pain or humiliation.

I've dealt with some very dense guys though...well, dense isn't really the right word, they just don't always pick up on the "hints" we drop. Subtleties like that are usually painfully obvious to females. **(Guys, I'm not saying this is true for all of you, just a few that I've had to deal with, so please, don't take offense!! I'm NOT negatively steriotyping you!!)** Sometimes we have to communicate things in black and white terms that leave no room for misinterpretation. The nice thing about email is that you can carefully plot out what you want to say. (For good measure, I'd have a godly guy friend read a copy before I sent it, so I could get his perspective on how it landed on the male mental landscape.)

I hope that this will be remotely helpful to you, or that at least you won't feel so alone in your circumstances. I'll pray that everything will work out, because I know how complicated this stuff is. From your post, you seem to be a bit like me in that you REALLY don't want to make others uncomfortable or hurt their feelings...I've found it to be one of my biggest assets and weaknesses. So, I feel your pain and am praying that God will bless your attempts to resolve this situation to His glory!

[50. Melissa said the following at 6:38 PM on Apr 1:]

50

Emily: I think the most important element of any male-female friendship is that of our own heart. We know how we are emotionally affected by too much, or any, male attention. For some of us that means guarding our hearts by taking relatively extreme measures. BUT I tend to get to know people easily in group situations, so for me, one on one time with guys would be somewhat unwarranted.

I completely understand where you're coming from though, and wouldn't judge you for a second if you have one on one guy friendships. I know that the Lord guides and guards each of us individually if we are earnestly seeking to honor Him in our relationships

Just a humble reminder to those of us posting, (myself more than anyone):
As christians, we need to remember that sometimes our zeal for the right thing leads us to make blanket, judgemental statements, so I think we should try to season all our comments with grace, love, and understanding. ( I'm NOT picking on anybody, or trying to drop hints. I haven't seen any really judgemental remarks, I've just recently been convicted of my own tendencies in that area.)

[51. sarah b. said the following at 7:02 PM on Apr 1:]

51

i've had the opposite problem. my fiance and i just ended our relationship because he decided he wasn't happy with a compromise he made to me.. namely to not hang out with single women one-on-one. not only this, but he also had the unfortunate habit of greeting friends, men and women, single or not, with a kiss on the lips. he agreed not to do this any more either. he finally admitted these compromises made him unhappy and the wedding is now off, and he's looking for an apartment. any words of advice for me or him? i am very sad and wish i could change his mind. thanks.

[52. James said the following at 8:09 PM on Apr 1:]

52

"I for one am not interested in being a man's buddy. I'm tired of being the "sister" - I want to be someone's wife."

Sister, I can echo that from the guy's side:

I'm tired of being the "brother" all the time - I want to be someone's husband.

BDB,

It's "Revenge is a dish best served cold." Also, do you listen to much Shakesphere? I'm told it's best in the original Klingon. =p

Emily, you said you're usually the mysterious girl. Well, guess what? That WILL attract guys. Mystery intrigues a man, and he will be inquisitive to find out that which is in front of him but that he doesn't know much about. So, don't be discouraged, sister. You've got a powerful ally that other girls who are outgoing have less of or don't have at all, and that's mystery.

[53. Leah said the following at 8:11 PM on Apr 1:]

53

For Melissa, and anyone else- guys just don't pick up on hints, at all. Subtle hints, obvious hints, whatever. They don't take hints! Hinting is not the way to do it. Just tell him outright that you are not interested (politely, of course).

[54. Darin said the following at 8:42 PM on Apr 1:]

54

Ellie, my take on the situation is that your friend is probably a decent guy...but he has never been taught how a man is supposed to act in a relationship.

It sounds like you, on the other hand, know how a man is supposed to act...but you are a bit low on the assertiveness scale. You may have even been led to believe that it's inappropriate for a lady to ask for a DTR. (Ideally, you shouldn't have to...but guys who haven't been taught might need a nudge.)

Anyhow, it's beyond that point now. It sounds to me like you probably like this guy on some level...but you feel trapped by him. You admire his persistence...but don't appreciate his methods. Likewise, it's hard for a lady to respect a guy who doesn't respect himself.

It sounds like you probably already know what you need to do, but you're looking for some confirmation. My advice is that you level with him and tell him that you can't go on with the relationship. Tell him that for both of your sake you have to make a clean break from it. (He needs this relationship to end too so that he can get on with his life.)

And even though it's not required, I think that you'd be doing him a BIG favor by pointing him to Boundless. Just say something like, "I think that you need to understand women and relationships better. If you would like, I can tell you about a great website for learning these things."

God bless and I hope that my advice has helped. I'll say a prayer for your situation too.

[55. Shannon said the following at 9:12 PM on Apr 1:]

55

There seems to be a small debate over a few things here (what constitutes intimate? how close is too close? etc). I'll throw in my two cents as someone who's been on both sides - I had the "buddy" and now I'm married (not to the buddy).

The question that one should ask is not - is this "okay" but is it glorifying to God - does it push you towards the things of God?

I had a buddy in college. I had a lot of emotional crap and he was willing to listen. The result was that over three years we spent all this one on one time together. We had dinner together, we got coffee together and the whole time he kept telling me "he wasn't interested" in me. I engaged him intellectually, I was funny, but in his mind, not marriage material. Even when he was interested in pursuing another girl, he continued to meet with me.

Now, good things did come out of it, but I rather see them as God "turning it to good". My last year of college I finally told him to take a hike, that he was leading me on and I wasn't going to play anymore. In that moment I was finally emotionally free of him.

Within a few months I met my husband and because I was free of my "buddy" I could open up to him and start building the emotional bond with him. I married my best friend as far as I'm concerned.

Once you get married, opposite sex relationships have to change. I have some guy friends that were part of my "group" of friends and we exchange the occasional email - the content which is completely known by my husband.

I think avoiding intimate opposite sex friendships has a lot to do with being emotionally available for your future spouse. Men and women are supposed to connect strongly! A husband and wife are supposed to be best friends. When something great happens to you, it should be your spouse you want to talk to first. When you're sad, you're spouse is the one you want to comfort you.

I don't know if any of this makes much sense. I apologize, I'm a bit sleep deprived (we had our first baby six weeks ago!). But there's my thought for what it's worth :)

[56. Holly said the following at 9:19 PM on Apr 1:]

56

In my life, the Lord has used an intimate friendship with a guy to bring a lot of healing to both of us. We both had difficulty trusting the opposite sex because of past hurts (inflicted by our opposite-sex parents, respectively). The friendship developed every positive aspect of a brother-sister relationship, and there was no defrauding or miscommunication or potential for hurt feelings in that regard on either side because of one important factor -- and, as long as this factor is present, I think other singles can safely experience an intimate opposite-sex friendship.

We are not attracted to each other in a romantic sense at all. I am attracted to tall, athletic, serious types. He is a skinny computer geek video-gamer who couldn't be serious for ten consecutive minutes if you paid him. He is attracted to ultra-feminine, frilly-lace type girls. I am a black belt for whom breaking boards is a favorite hobby, who would just as soon spar you as talk to you. LOL.

God knew that we both needed the safety of a genuine friendship with the opposite sex as a chance to help heal the wounds our parents left us with, so he set us up perfectly in that regard. He has taught me a lot about men, and I have taught him a lot about women. We share the same rapport that I see in people who are siblings by blood.

I can already hear the objections, that a lot of time together and sharing of deep feelings can cause attraction to develop, etc., and I don't doubt that this is true in many (or even most) cases. But there are simply some guys I am never going to be attracted to in a romantic sense, just as I am never going to be attracted to a girl.

My guy friend and I have been beacons of God's unconditional love in each other's lives, and I often smile when I think about the bizarre way we met (a story too long to share here, but one which can be summarized with "only God could've arranged it"), the many things we have in common, and the sense of safety from being the polar opposite of each other's attraction. I would have to be male to be less attractive to him in a romantic sense, and he would have to be female to be less attractive to me in a romantic sense. End of the spectrum.

God truly has a sense of humor to match His boundless mercy.

[57. Chris Krycho said the following at 9:26 PM on Apr 1:]

57

Melissa - I must say, I certainly don't take any offense at your note that guys can often miss even girls' strong hints. (I often have.) As a good female friend of mine and I discussed a little while back, a girl can be sending the strongest signals she knows how to send, and the guys is completely oblivious all too often - even if he's looking for them. They're like a hidden, coded message to him. At the same time, I've known of many girls who had no idea a guy liked them, despite - or, as we were discussing, perhaps because - the fact that it was more like a flashing neon sign saying, "I really like you!" The girl can be so busy looking for subtle signals she misses the sign; and the guy doesn't know how to see the subtle signals, only neon signs. Neither is better or worse, but they certainly are different.

Yes, this is a strong generalization - but it's also, I think, at least partly true.

[58. BDB said the following at 11:06 PM on Apr 1:]

58

Emily:

I was thinking about what you said. In better company, a group facilitator will shush the loud people and draw you into the conversation. Though it occurs to me that women are much more difficult to approach when they travel in a pack, too. Here's a few things I thought of:

1) Smile. If you smile at a man twice in one day, he'll come talk to you. Doesn't work every time, but it works a lot. Even if you never get to talk in the group.

2) Volunteer. Preferably in an unstructured setting, such as a church food warehouse. This provides flexibility for small groups of people to work on a project together. It might only take two of you to put a bag of rice into each box for example.

3) Arrive early. If there's a group with people you like, start showing up ten minutes early. (In Southern California, this would make you an amazing person.) This would give you the chance to talk with the first 2-3 people who arrive before the group. And, if someone notices that you always arrive early, he might also start arriving early...

Though I will also say that some of the best conversations I've ever had came from seeking out the quiet person in a corner of a larger event.

[59. BDB said the following at 1:19 AM on Apr 2:]

59

For those of you who are interested, here is Elisabeth Elliot's devotional on this exact topic.

If the link doesn't work, it is entitled, "Two Marriageable People."

http://www.backtothebible.org/index.php?option=com_devotion&qid=5&task=show&resource_no=058&Itemid=75

[60. Cherise said the following at 7:58 AM on Apr 2:]

60

Ellie - I know how you feel! If he has not provided clarification for you about his intentions, then it feels like you can't say anything. After all, he may just want to be friends, right? Would you feel comfortable asking him what his intentions are? You have a right to know, after all the time you've spent together. Short of coming out and telling him straight up you don't want anything more than friendship, you are in a tough spot. Melissa's advice of replying to his emails with shorter, less personal answers is good. He may get the hint if you can consistently be busy and delay a few days in answering emails. Oftentimes a guy will give up if the girl of his interest becomes unavailable. I've done this passive rejection to a few guys, and while it's not the best way to handle the situation, it can work. It may feel mean/rude to tell a guy you're not interested (regardless of whether he's expressed interest by word or by deed), but it's really a kindness. You're saving him from wasting any more energy hoping for something with you. I hope this works out for you without minimal drama.

Sarah B. - I'm sorry to hear about the end of your engagement... what a heartache! But I think it was a good thing for him to release you from the commitment. If a guy can't keep a promise to you before marriage, he won't keep them afterwards. Kissing others on the lips as a greeting is not something I would be comfortable with my husband doing, and honestly, would you? Are you praying that God would change his heart? If he is the best man for you, then he will be willing to let go of his bachelorhood. And if he's not... then there is someone better, who will respect you. I pray that God would reveal His perfect love to you during this time.

[61. Michele said the following at 9:02 AM on Apr 2:]

61

It was difficult to read Scott's column, I admit. I'm one of those women who "get along" better with men than with women - I've always found it nearly impossible to form lastly friendships with women, sometimes because of my own issues, sometimes because of theirs.

Scott's column was convicting, and I think that's a great thing. A lot of us need a nudge when it comes to Biblical relationships of whatever kind - we don't know what is and is not acceptable, and often use the rest of the world as our guide.

With that in mind, though, when I finally came to know Christ and recognized the changes that needed to be made in my life, the nature of my friendships changed as well. I take the "would my future husband be offended/hurt by this?" attitude and it works well. I have fewer close friends - which is also good, because I have more time for the Lord and I have more opportunity to really develop the friendships I still have.

[62. MCW said the following at 9:28 AM on Apr 2:]

62

I really liked Scott's article because it explained some of the problems I've had and helped me take the first step in being clear about boundaries with male friends. However, I have on how to proceed with the male "best friend" who is currently "filling-in". I know my heart where he is concerned and I want to do the right thing and draw the boundaries and I need advice on the best way to do this without causing all out war. It feels like re-drawing country-boundaries and maybe I'm being too optimistic in hoping to keep the friendship.I would particularly like an older female/male perspective on this. Thanks.

[63. Michelle B said the following at 9:34 AM on Apr 2:]

63

Dear Sarah B:

I am SO sorry this has happened to you! I don't think I could say anything that would be helpful to you but I am praying for you!

[64. Alex C. said the following at 9:42 AM on Apr 2:]

64

I must admit that this is an issue that I have been struggling with for a long time. It always seemed incredibly weird to me to say that men and women shouldn't be close friends. When reading that article, the obsticle I face is the assertion over the "emotional intimacy" issue. There is hardly any problem with accepting the idea that "physical intimacy" is something that should be saved for marriage, but the idea that emotional closeness should also be saved for marriage is an idea that is much harder for me to grasp. The question it brings to my mind is that, if "close friendships" between women and men are innapropriate, why are "close friendships" between two men or two women ok? What if a person has a "close friendship" with a sibling of the opposite gender? Why is it ok for two guys or two girls to to be close friends? If being close inevitably leads to someone becoming romanticly interested in the other, why is it ok for same sex people to be close? The conclusion I'd end up coming to from reading that article is that no one, regardless of gender, should become close friends.

[65. Jen said the following at 11:34 AM on Apr 2:]

65

Alex, I've totally thought about that same issue (why is okay for 2 friends of the same gender to be close, if being emotionally intimate with someone takes away from your future spouse?). No one's really been able to give me a good answer to the question. Personally, I don't think that having emotional intimacy with someone defrauds your future spouse, but I'm definitely in the minority here.

[66. BDB said the following at 12:02 PM on Apr 2:]

66

Alex & Jen bring up a good point. This idea that only your spouse should provide emotional support will ultimately fail. I've spent the last 12 years in church "small groups" that include a significant number of married couples. The reality is that you need to live in community with people. If something medical happens to your spouse, and they were your sole means of support, you will truly be lost. Besides, very, very few people are strong enough to be the entire emotional support system for another person. It's even harder to do it consistently - everyone has good days and bad days.

That said, it's much easier to draw the line at avoiding lots of one-on-one time alone. Becoming a significant part of each other's routines is really where you get into trouble. We live in a time where people believe that romance "happens" or "doesn't happen." If you're spending 20 hours alone with someone each week, it's going to happen to one of you. Cut it back to an hour a week and you can still be friends, but you're no longer dependent on their routine for your own life. This varies by age though, too. An hour a week in college is nothing; when you're over 30, it might be seen as significant because it's hard to find that much uninterrupted time.

Though, if you're not interested in someone, and doing the passive "too busy to talk" thing, please don't then suggest dinner at a date-level restaurant at 8pm on a Friday and then give them a well-thought-out present. It's fine if you are interested, but if you're not, then that kind of behavior is VERY confusing.

Not that it's happened recently; I'm just saying it's a mixed message...

[67. Gary said the following at 12:16 PM on Apr 2:]

67

Ellie,

From a guys perspective, I agree with some of the other posts saying that hints typically do not work. I suggest that you be up front with this guy, and tell him that you're not interested in a relationship with him. It can be that simple...you don't have to give him a laundary list of reasons why. Don't cop out and say that you're too busy right now, or you're not ready, because if you by chance begin to date someone else in the near future, he will lose respect for you. Just be honest. That is really what a guy wants. Also, don't wait to do this until after you're at dinner with him like you did the first time. The next time he invites you to dinner or a movie or whatever, make your intentions clear. After that, if he still doesn't get the hint and e-mails you or calls you a lot, I feel you're under no obligation to return his e-mails or calls, since you've made your position known. But I can't stress enough to be open and honest with him. Women often use excuses for not going out with a guy, instead of just saying that they are not interested. This leaves open the possibility that you would have gone out with him if you weren't busy, which is just inviting him to ask you out again. I know it seems like guys are clueless to not get it, but sometimes its hard to accept that you've been rejected, especially if it was done using veiled attempts. If you're not interested, just say that to begin with, and everything is much easier from then on.

[68. Darin said the following at 12:36 PM on Apr 2:]

68

MCW, it's good to hear that you are drawing healthy boundaries for your friendships. In regards to the male "best friend", the best thing that you can do is to simply tell him how you feel and what your new boundaries are going to be. If he is a true friend, he will respect your feelings and abide by the rules.

One thing that you need to ask yourself is why you are worried that it will turn into "all out war". Has he demonstrated controlling behavior or manipulation in the past? If so, you're not really his friend; you're his prisoner.

Anyway, you need not feel like you are destroying a friendship. You have every right to express your feelings. If the friendship doesn't survive then it was him who destroyed it; not you.

[69. Alex C. said the following at 1:47 PM on Apr 2:]

69

"We live in a time where people believe that romance "happens" or "doesn't happen." If you're spending 20 hours alone with someone each week, it's going to happen to one of you."

The problem I have is that a lot of articles and comments I've seen on this site will argue that this is inevitably what happens to a man and a women when they spend a lot of time together, but say nothing about the possibility of this happening between people of the same sex. Why are two guys or two girls (or opposite gendered siblings) who spend great lenghts of time together per week assumed to be immune to this effect that seems to plague guy/girl friendship interactions? It's as if we assume that there is some unexplainable "something" that only happens between a guy and a girl that causes them to become attracted; I think if that were true than either A) homosexuality wouldn't be very prevelent at all, or B) "curing" homosexuality would be much easier than it's made out to be (all you'd have to do is get a homosexual person to form a close friendship with someone of the opposite sex.)

[70. Darin said the following at 1:51 PM on Apr 2:]

70

Melissa, Cherise and women in general, there is something that I need to tell you about men. First of all, it is SO TRUE that men don't get women's hints! (You really hit the nail on the head with that one, Melissa.)

The other thing that you need to understand is that we are "problem solvers". So, if all of a sudden you start sending shorter and less frequent e-mails to a male friend, I can almost guarantee you he's never going to have a moments peace until he figures out WHAT THE PROBLEM IS.

Here's an example of what goes on in a guys head when a woman starts to close down communication with him: "I wonder what's wrong? Was it something that I said? Was it something that I did? Or maybe it was something that I DIDN'T do that I should have. Maybe she's just wanting me to persue harder. On the other hand, maybe it's not even about me. Maybe she's depressed. Or maybe she's just really busy right now. -- WHY DOESN'T SHE JUST TELL ME???"

A guy will then go through all of the motions of trying to find out what's going on inside the elusive female mind. He'll call you or write you: "Are you upset with me about something? Are you depressed? What's wrong?"

Eventually, you're right...some guys will eventually disappear. But don't assume that they got the hint. Most of the time they simply walk away angry, hurt, frustrated and confused. (Really, is it worth putting a guy through all that?)

I don't think that you INTEND guys any harm by using that tactic on them...but from a man's perspective that's simply how it is.

(Other than that I totally agree with your advice to Ellie.)

[71. Rebekah said the following at 3:22 PM on Apr 2:]

71

Shannon: I was in a situation similiar to yours, not that long ago, only everything happend over a years time. Since you have bridged the gap between being "buddies" and being married, I thought I might ask you a question that I have been struggling with for sometime.

The thing I have a hard time with, is finding a balance between being someones "buddy" and yet emotionally connecting with someone enough to marry them. How do you know that the time and effort and emotional attachment you put into someone will turn out to be your future husband?

I guess I just want to prevent myself from becoming someones "buddy" again, but at the same time still develop a relationship with someone. What is the distinguishing lines between being someones "buddy" and being on your way to a long lasting committed relationship?

Perhaps someone else has already asked this question, and I've just missed the answer somewhere among all the posts....so if I'm reposting something, I'm sorry!

[72. IWishToRemainAnonymous said the following at 4:10 PM on Apr 2:]

72

I have two takes on this:

First of all, for many years (through high school, and college, and on into grad school) I was close friends with an unsaved guy. He was interested in me for a time; I was not interested in him, and the dilemma of whether or not I should be interested in him was never an issue because as an unbeliever, he was not someone I could date. We shared many hobbies and interests, and because his family was a certified mess, he looked to mine to see what a family should be like. I had opportunities to witness to him, and he credits me with teaching him a lot about life. Three years ago, we met for lunch during spring break; he had recently become engaged, and that was our last "old buddies" time together. Now that he is married, I will not spend time with him unless his wife is present or we are with a group, and anything I email to him goes to the joint account he shares with his wife. There was a necessary, and very natural, severing of our friendship as it had formerly existed when he married his wife.

On the other hand, I can think of a good number of CHRISTIAN guys who played the "buddies" game with me without making their intentions clear enough to avoid confusion, only to disappear and then resurface with a girlfriend or fiancee in tow.

So why is it that I could have a quality, platonic friendship with a nonbeliever but not with a Christian guy?

[73. Joey U. said the following at 4:13 PM on Apr 2:]

73

Alex & Jen,
I hope to be able to answer your question. It might seem very confusing to consider intimate friendship between two single Christians of the opposite sex not beneficial, but then consider 2 Christian male friendships (David and Jonathan) or 2 Christian female friendships ( Ruth and Naomi) to be beneficial. What is the difference? (which is what I think you’re asking)
I do not full understand the reason for homosexual tendencies, nor do I know if they come from spending too much time with the same sex. I do not believe that is the problem, but due to my lack of knowledge I will not address that area. I do understand that the friendship between 2 Christian of the same sex is different from the relationship between the Christian friendships of the opposite sex. The major difference is that you won’t receive the type of intimacy that is meant for marriage from the same sex, because God created that kind of intimacy only to be experienced between married men and women.
I think one of the points of the article was to show that intimate guy/girl relationships try to emulate the intimacy we desire in marriage. It causes us the delay in seeking marriage and it takes away from the intimacy planned for your future spouse. If we can’t experience that intimacy in guy/guy or girl/girl friendships, then I don’t think they will hinder our desires for marriage.

Hope this helps
Joey

[74. felicity said the following at 4:16 PM on Apr 2:]

74

Wow, there has been a lot of talk today. It sounds like there are a lot of people with the same types of problems out there. It's a good feeling to know you're not alone.

I'm doing my best to let go of this friendship I have with my "mbf" male best friend, but he's not taking it so well.

I'm thankful for all of the advice offered even when it is directed towards someone else. I'm taking it all in and trying to apply it; it's a slow process.

[75. felicity said the following at 4:18 PM on Apr 2:]

75

Rebekah:
What an excellent question! I can't wait to hear some of the answers!

[76. Ariana said the following at 4:23 PM on Apr 2:]

76

Darin,

Thanks for explaining how guys deal when women shut down communication. It's not a very nice thing to just go "silent," but at the same time, I wonder if you would suggest just going silent for a guy who would happily string a girl along without clearly stating his intentions? On one hand, why should one party have to explain themselves when the other won't? At the same time, that seems a bit petty. But maybe that provides a little motivation in some cases?

Alex C.,

On what you said about romance "just happening" between men and women, and also about homosexuality: The premise underlying the Boundless article is that generally men are already attracted to women and generally women are already attracted to men--to the exclusion of those of the same sex. Oftentimes, at some point, that general desire for an opposite-sex companion will enter into the friendship and this friend is seen as having very solid potential for fitting the bill. If a person has no attraction to a person of the opposite sex, then there's little reason to think that something would just arise in an intimate friendship.

Moreover, the article encourages singles to be honest about the nature of their relationship to their opposite-sex friend, which many times is really romantic in nature (at least in part) rather than just "friendly." And yes, there is a difference between the two. CS Lewis' The Four Loves is useful for making the distinction; and J.Budziszewski also wrote an Ask Theophilus column about it, but I can't remember the title. But since there is a difference, I think that that also means that there are some male-female friendships that really can stay platonic, because the nature of the friendship is actually platonic, and for whatever reason, both parties have excluded the other from "mate potential," which, by the way is one possible reason that same-sex friends don't necessarily "fall" for one another.

[77. Sina said the following at 4:23 PM on Apr 2:]

77

Rebekah~ that's a very good question and one that I would like to find out the answer to myself. I hate to repeat the 'buddy' thing again but at the same time I realize I may be cutting myself off from future relationships. Anyone have suggestions?

[78. Ellie said the following at 4:46 PM on Apr 2:]

78

Thanks for all the advice; very helpful! The prayers are much appreciated, too. I think I will have to talk to him soon - I just hope that I can have both grace and clarity in doing it.

Regarding the why is it okay for same-sex friends or family members to spend that sort of time....
I would guess it has to do with the complementary nature of men and women. We were created for the "my better half" system. Homosexuality and SSA do exist (and I do feel for those experiencing that), as does incest, but these aren't the expression of sexuality God intended. As such, I think there is a higher potential in these situations, and a certain naturalness to it (as we desire companionship), for something more to develop.

My best friend, whom I cannot fathom not being in my life, is also female. But the emotional support we give and receive is different than that between me and a significant other. And we both need it. But it is different. We might be complementary in, say, she's better at trig and I'm decent at history, or she knows how to handle one type of situation, and I have experience handling another, but it's not the same as that, I don't know, natural fit between men and women that I think exists.

Just my two cents. : )

[79. Amber said the following at 5:49 PM on Apr 2:]

79

Sarah B.: I'm sorry to hear about the end of your engagement. I recently endured the same thing. I know it feels like the end of so many things right now. That's ok. It's ok to be sad -- but also know that what feels like a pain that can never heal CAN... with God's help. You're probably wondering why God would bring the two of you together only to change your fiance's heart. I don't know, but I'm starting to slowly see through my pain a purpose for my hurt and I believe that you will in time see that as well. Sarah...I know words do nothing to comfort...big hug from a sister in Christ!

[80. BDB said the following at 7:10 PM on Apr 2:]

80

Ummm...at the risk of irritating everyone with another post, here's two more pieces.

You will really learn a lot about someone by how they respond when you try to set a boundary. If they care about you, they will respect it, Even if they don't understand it, they will hopefully slow down and ask for clarification.

For example, when I was in college, I once had a female friend say I had to stop calling. I said, "OK, write me a letter."

And I waited.

About a week later, I got a letter. Turns out, the problem wasn't me. She explained that her uncle was upset by how much time she was spending on the phone. She was actually helping to take care of a grandmother in a nursing home. The uncle didn't have call waiting and wouldn't consider it, and he was upset that he might miss a call from the nursing home.

So we wrote a bunch of letters that summer. Today, she and her husband and I, are all still good friends a dozen years later. Even the uncle was glad to meet me at the wedding.

If you're at the point of severing a friendship, I wouldn't recommend mailing a letter or just going silent. That's mean.

But if you really just want to re-adjust the boundaries, you can write it in a letter - then hand it to them and let them read it in front of you. Might be a good idea to bring a box of tissue. But a couple of times I've been pleasantly surprised at certain people's willingness to adjust without drama. It might even be a relief and reduce tension for them, too. I really do get concerned that the marriage-or-nothing mentality is what creates so much pressure that men are afraid to initiate anything.

[81. DanL said the following at 9:25 PM on Apr 2:]

81

I’ll confess that many of my closest friends have been women. There have been several times when it seems like I was just setting myself up to be hurt, so I’m very open to the idea male/female friendships are a bad idea, but in the end I find Mr. Croft’s argument unconvincing. Croft’s article itself seems to shift form, alternating between such friendships being unbiblical and merely being unwise. Most of the comments seem to assume that the friendship between the man and women is some undefined interaction that might be romantic, or might not, and is just sort of drifting along. I wish we would spend more time dealing cases where both the man the women have discussed this and agreed to be just friends. I think addresses the point of the “defrauding” that Croft attempts to make.

Many of my close female friends have been women that I’ve either dated or ask out previously. Its true that that can makes things awkward at first and its sometimes frustrating when the two of you seem to relate so well, and you have no idea why they wouldn’t ever consider you more than a friend. But the awkwardness works itself out over time, and I would consider it the height of selfishness if I was only interested in friendship with a woman if I thought it would get me something more. In the end these friends have helped out through some very difficult periods of my life, and I’m grateful that they were there for me. It has definitely been worth any pain the relationship caused. In the end, I think if you get close enough to any friend, be they male or female, there will be times when you both cause each other pain, but I hope this never leads us to think we shouldn’t have close friends.

It has been true that I haven’t been spending 20 hours a week with any of these friends. I don’t have 5 hours, let a long 20 to spend with anyone even if I wanted. And most of time hasn’t truly been spent along, but in small groups of three or four, although we never actually canceled plans if our other friends didn’t make it. We have spent a lot of time emailing. And I’ve made several calls to my one friend who spent the last two years as a missionary in Eastern Europe, although I generally don’t like phone calls. Like Emily above, I am painfully shy don’t have the ability to get to know someone if I am in a large group.

Despite what was said in the article, and by others, I’ve never really found it that difficult when my female friends to get married. Obviously I involve the husband in any activities, and time you see each gets cut down some. All and all though, I’d say my relationship with female friends who get married changes less than with my male friends who get married. I think women in general keep more of the old friends (male and female) when they get married, while men suddenly only want to interact with other marrieds.

[82. blessedbabe said the following at 9:55 PM on Apr 2:]

82

I think Scott hit everything right. I've been in one. Usually it is the woman who gets hurt and ends up expecting something. I reached a point (as did many of my sisters who experienced it) as to why is it that of all people, it's a Christian guy who's hurt me.

Now, I wasn't about to go on and conclude that the entire Christian male population is like that. But see, I live in Asia and my pastor has admonished the men in one session. Then I go read up articles like this and was surprised that this is as common as it is in the West!

I think it's all about the "renewal of the mind" and all of us being a work in progess.

But let's make it clear. We are to be a light to the world. We have to show them what a good relationship is like. Not the other way around.

In a sense, that book entitled 'He's not that Into You,' which is not a Christian book, but somehow make sense. Men in general, if they want something, would really go get it. Non-Christians at least.

Shouldn't Christians behave even more so? Since we have the Holy Spirit and therefore more wisdom, shouldn't we already know what we want? And be clear in getting it?

I think that Christian men should be clear in what they want and boldly get it. I seriously think that if they want marriage, they would do everything to get it!

Now as for women who fawn over this 'Christian men are too timid to pursue' thinking, the only one we can go to this is God, of course. But let's also consider our brothers. They have to think and initiate about everything!

I really think that we should understand them and know that the true Christian men will stand up for the things that they want, especially marriage.

Now, if it seems like they're not doing anything... they're probably 'not that into you.' It shouldn't be cause for impatience or despair. Just more room for prayer and I guess... other men.

[83. James said the following at 11:15 PM on Apr 2:]

83

Gary said, "Don't cop out and say that you're too busy right now, or you're not ready, because if you by chance begin to date someone else in the near future, he will lose respect for you. Just be honest. That is really what a guy wants. Also, don't wait to do this until after you're at dinner with him like you did the first time. The next time he invites you to dinner or a movie or whatever, make your intentions clear. After that, if he still doesn't get the hint and e-mails you or calls you a lot, I feel you're under no obligation to return his e-mails or calls, since you've made your position known. But I can't stress enough to be open and honest with him. Women often use excuses for not going out with a guy, instead of just saying that they are not interested. This leaves open the possibility that you would have gone out with him if you weren't busy, which is just inviting him to ask you out again. I know it seems like guys are clueless to not get it, but sometimes its hard to accept that you've been rejected, especially if it was done using veiled attempts."

Ladies, let me be up front here: if you cop out and give a false reason that doesn't clearly say in itself "I'm not interested in you romantically," then one of two things will happen:

1) The guy will ask you out again, and you will decline in the same vague manner you did previously. Ad infinitum, or until a guy you DO like asks you out, you accept and start dating the guy. Then that previous guy will lose respect for you because he will THEN see your reasons as dodges (which they were), and will feel betrayed because you lied to him, and he would be right. It is much more preferable that you let him know the FIRST time he asks that you're not interested in him romantically and decline the date for THAT reason. No list of reasons why are needed, but for heaven's sake, do NOT use anything other than the truth.

2) From previous experience the man will see what you're really saying and take it as is. However, in the process you will lose credibility in his eyes because he will know that you're really saying something else and will see that as you not respecting him enough to give him the straight truth. Like in situation number 1, he will feel betrayed and lied to. It's just that it won't take as long. He'll know after the first attempt, or maybe the second.

Also, ladies, NEVER say "I don't believe God has me in a position to be in a relationship right now" unless you really mean that for the current season of your life (meaning that this is going to be at least for the next several months or year or so) that you are NOT to be in any serious relationship. Too often I see even well-meaning girls use this on me, and from experience I've come to see it as "I'm actually interested in another guy." And just about every time I've been proven right b/c within the following month, sure enough she's dating a guy. You REALLY want to make a guy feel betrayed and lied to, hide behind God when He hasn't actually put you in a season of continued singleness (doesn't count if you're seriously attracted to a guy who's also acting attracted to you). This, above all other excuses is the WORST, and as a guy I HATE it when a girl uses this as a cop-out. Now, when its the truth, then that's fine and very noble and I pray about that for that girl in my prayers. But when it turns out not to be true, then it feels as if even my prayers were just defrauded.

So, ladies, here's the straight facts: we men DO NOT process hints.....at all. So be direct, but tactful. To be kind you just need to be honest and respect us enough to tell us the truth off the bat. Doesn't mean you don't have to be careful in your words, it just means don't tell us reasons that aren't true.

I still respect a girl who turns me down kindly, but tells me the reason is because she is not interested in me romantically. But if she dodges, and I see it (I've been hurt enough that I can suspect it when it happens .... though I'll usually try and get a straight answer out of her first before I totally give up all hope), then she loses respect and the pain is WORSE.

[84. Darin said the following at 11:18 PM on Apr 2:]

84

Ariana, I agree that it would probably be like poetic justice to just "go silent" on a guy who doesn't define the relationship like he should. But that would be "eye for an eye" justice (i.e. revenge) and we're under a different covenant.

As far as teaching him a lesson.... I don't think that it would do him near as much good as some genuine communication. (Most guys don't even know what is expected of them in a relationship...sad, but true.)

Another way to teach the guys a lesson is to require clarity BEFORE an intimate friendship starts. It's perfectly acceptable for a lady to request that. (A lady shouldn't have to ask...but if the guy doesn't know his role then she may have to.) A woman who gets strung along is a "willing victim" and she needs to acknowledge her own role in it.

[85. MCW said the following at 4:09 AM on Apr 3:]

85

Thanks for the advice Darin and your additional post on hints and why they don't work has helped as well (I was thinking of taking this "easier" route).

And the comment on "all out war" was more in reference to myself - as I think I would have the bigger struggle/battle in keeping those boundaries :( I have however been very encouraged by the posts that have shared on creating and keeping boundaries and the benefits they have gained so in prayer I'm going forward :)!

[86. Ariana said the following at 12:52 PM on Apr 3:]

86

Darin,

Thanks for the response, though I didn't really mean that perhaps women ought to go silent in order to get revenge or to teach guys a lesson. I meant that in the case that a man is actually stringing a girl along, that perhaps she could "check out" of this quasi-relationship without needing to explain to him why, unless, of course, he asks. Like I said, that's not very nice -- particularly if the guy really means no harm. But in one way, having to have that conversation with the guy seems unfair. Sure, women can ask a man to state his intentions if they are confused, but more often than not she is only concerned with this question because she wants more than he's giving. In which case, bringing the issue up might be one more grasp at a relationship that perhaps isn't even worth it. (The whole, "He's Just Not That Into You" line of thinking. But perhaps that's a bit pessimistic, and it goes against the testimony of people like Candice and Steve Watters.

[87. Nicole said the following at 4:44 PM on Apr 3:]

87

I've really enjoyed reading the comments to this blog as it relates a lot to my situations that I have been dealing with lately. I have suffered a lot of emotional harm from Christian males who do not know how to respectfully end friendships. And no, it was not me who desired more than friendship. Instead, I have been a victim of "going silent" from males whose romantic feelings I did not return. While I completely respect one's need to disengage from a person by whom their romantic feelings are not returned, I do feel like we are called to be respectful rather than hurtful when doing so. However, these guys abruptly stopped interacting or worse, would contact me asking for forgiveness and the reestablishment of our friendship only to then immediately cease speaking to me even during holidays, birthdays and such occassions. Hence, I was left extending grace and forgiveness to people who immediately upon receiving it returned to exhibiting disrespect, ostracism, and generally unChrist-like behavior.

In my experience (and that of many of my Christian female friends), I have found that this is an area where Christian men struggle more than non-Christians. I have had friendships with non-Christian men were I did not return their romantic feelings. As a result, we are no longer friends. However, the process of dissolving our friendships was not rude or hurtful. These men handled it in a mature and respectful manner in which neither of us suffered any additional emotional harm. For the life of me, I cannot understand why I have been treated so much better by men who do not profess to be Christians than by those who do.

As a single woman such experiences can be extremely discouraging...How can we support one another as husbands/wives when we unnecessarily fail each other as brothers/sisters?

Please know that I agree that intimate cross-sex friendships are unwise. My issue is with the dysfunctional manner in which individuals go about severing those relationships.

[88. Katie said the following at 5:35 PM on Apr 3:]

88

Aaron:

Thank you thank you thank you!! I pretty much echo the comments that commended you for this attitude. That sort of thing helps us girls to not attach our hearts, and I pray you are able to maintain that distance until God brings you your wife.

[89. Darin said the following at 6:46 PM on Apr 3:]

89

Ariana, thanks for the clarification. I think that I understand a bit better now. You're talking in terms of a guy who knows what he's supposed to do but he's just not doing it...did I get it right?

I have one final observation that I want to comment on in this post. Upon reading all of the stories of hurt it would be easy to go to the opposite extreme of avoiding the opposite sex altogether. But it's important to keep in mind that "pain avoidance" is not always the answer.

Proverbs 14:4 says, "Where no oxen are, the manger is clean, but much revenue comes by the strength of the ox." In other words, by avoiding the mess you often miss out on the rewards. So in regards to opposite sex friendships, don't throw out the ox just to keep the barn neat and clean. Just make sure that you are using the ox in a proper and constructive manner.

[90. Matt said the following at 12:47 AM on Apr 4:]

90

Well this is something that just came to a head tonight.

There was a girl that I was pursuing over a period of time. We had gone on 3 "dates" during that time and I was getting ready to do the DTR thing. However, she popped the DTR on me first and asked what my intentions were towards her. After I told her that I liked her she said that she was still getting over a previous relationship, was really busy with grad classes and work, and was feeling like she was far from God so she didn't think it was fair to me to be in a relationship right now.

Due to some converstations we basically agreed to a 2 month period where we'd see where we felt then. Well that 2 month period was ending next week and I had no idea if I was interested in her still. However, after talking to her roommate tonight I learned that basically all that was code for "I'm not interested in you that way".

I'd strongly considered that as a possibility for what she was really thinking but I was pretty sure that if she didn't like me that she was they type that would have been willing to tell me that she wasn't into me. I guess I was wrong.

I'm not upset with her, but I wished I had known 2 months ago what I know now instead of 2 months with ambiguity. As has been said before, girls if you don't like the guy be gently but straightforward and honest. We aren't these delicate butterflies that won't recover from getting crushed. Sure, it will hurt but we will get over it and move on. Dragging out the process ends up being more painful in the long run.

[91. Ariana said the following at 1:40 PM on Apr 4:]

91

Darin,

Yes, that's about right. Though the funny thing is, it seems like it doesn't register to some guys that what they are doing is stringing a girl along. So, that's why communication is actually good. Not to be down on men, but a friend and I were talking about the behavior of a male-friend of hers; and we agreed that sometimes Christian guys can think that becuase there's no sex involved or other types of physical intimacy, that their ambiguous relationships with their female friends and more-than-friends must be okay. For some reason, the thought "I'm a player" doesn't register, since in comparison to non-Christian men, they're great. And I've been unsure about the proper response to that. In the secular world, a woman dealing with such a man, if she has a decent amount of self-respect will say, "You're a jerk," and never give him another moment's thought. But I'm sure we owe our Christian brother more than that.

[92. xeres said the following at 2:51 PM on Apr 4:]

92

I think the problem is most people's minds, they subconsciously think that this person is like me. The truth of the matter is that no one will be like me. Most of love the idea of relationships, not so much of the person him/herself. As a result, we never anticipate the possible differences I migh have with this person either as a friend or lover or spouse. Also, most Christians entering Christian college think like as if because it's christian, everyone will like Mr. rogers and all that. Plus, a lot of us feel won't have a hard time making an effort to make relationships work and meaningfulnow that most people are Christians. If that was the case, then the Gentile believer in the early church will easily be fellowshipping with the Jewish believers side by side as if they best buddies, which didn't quite happen that way. While being christ followers relieve some of the issues, it doesn't make communication any less work. This planet is not the garden of eden. Everyone is going to had some sort of bad history whatever it is. I think that's why my university is one of the few Christian colleges where being a believer isn't required to apply to the university. As long as we exist, we will always going to has problems with the opposite sex either way. Avoiding them will just make the problem worse anyway

[93. Chris Krycho said the following at 3:20 PM on Apr 4:]

93

Matt - sorry to hear that. I pray you will have grace to walk through this; I know that sort of things can hurt (been there, done that). The ambiguity is often the worst part, in my experience: far worse even than hearing no (painful though that be) are the times when, as a guy, you simply have to wait and not understand where a girl is coming from.

Ladies - help out your guy friends by explaining honestly where you're coming from. If you don't know (and I understand from conversations with women I'm friends with that, odd as it may seem to us men, you sometimes just don't), then help by explaining that. Most guys don't understand that; I don't understand how it works but I understand that it happens. If you communicate that to a guy - honestly, not as a cover - then he'll appreciate it.

It seems the issue of deception has been raised a lot. Deception typically for the purpose of not hurting someone's feelings, but deception nevertheless. Does it bother anyone else that we, as Christians, so cavalierly practice the "white lie" or simple obfuscation by omission, etc. so as to "protect" each other? The truth really does set us free. Be tactful in your delivery of the truth, yes... but speak the truth. No matter how painful that is for the person hearing it, it's far more loving to tell them the truth now rather than stringing them along (which I think guys and girls have a bad tendency to do in equal degrees, though in different ways).

God bless, all.

[94. xeres said the following at 4:09 PM on Apr 4:]

94

Deception bothers me a lot. the question how can the truth be presented in a Christ like way without blowing their world apart. However, it's really hard to anticipate the response well especially if you going to be the one who blow their world apart in a negative fashion. I'm always stuck with unrequited love all the time. I mean, there is a guy that I became a pal to (not a intimate buddy). As I got to notice few things about the person, I come to be interested. However, I'm always stuck with the reality that they'll not going like me back at anytime soon :P. It was clear as day but I still hold on to those feelings. I always knew but I end up liking them anyway. I couldn't tell them especially when I knew the true outcome anyway. Part of me does want to but it just reeks. This doens't happen to every guy but when it happen, it's pretty lame to say the least. Throughout my years, I have been interested in five guy pals but only one come to like me back. However that was bittersweet because he was or became a backslidder and I'm becoming mature in my faith. That doesn't help either if I like this person before I became a believer. As of now, I'm over him but it was hard. If you knew whats going on, you would understand. Honesty is fundamental regardless of my excuses for not letting those male pals know my true romantic feelings for them especially when one of them had to found out through gossip. However, I'm doing much better but I still have a long way to go.

[95. sarah b said the following at 10:13 PM on Apr 7:]

95

thank you so much cherise, michelle b. and amber for your kind words of hope, prayer and encouragement. i have moved through the pain, grief and heartbreak, and i am now working through some anger for his deception and incredible break of trust. fortunately, he will be moving out within a week, so i will then have more space to come back into my own. thanks again and god bless you all!

[96. sarah b said the following at 10:38 PM on Apr 7:]

96

alex and jen,

my two cents on the emotional closeness between two of the opposite sex is that, say you have a great friend of the opposite sex then get married.. the friend would (or should if his/her intentions with you are pure) totally understand the need to back off. if he/she didn't, and you were to have an argument with your spouse, then that friend "could" be your sounding board... a very real threat in times of hardship to your spouse. your "friend" then might understand you, support you, help you, etc. and then he/she could seem like a better partner to you in that time of distress than your spouse. so my answer would be that intimate one-on-one friendships with the opposite sex should be considered innappropriate simply for the reason that they *could* become a threat, and why upset your spouse by dangling that carrot (keeping an intimate friend of the opposite sex around). hey, pretty good explanation, eh? :-)

by all means, go out in groups if you don't want to lose your opposite sex friends altogether! and if you have an opposite sex friend around that you wouldn't be willing to make that compromise or committment for, then take a gooooood hard look at your spouse, girlfriend, boyfriend, fiance, relationship, and ask yourself in what ways you are unhappy. because granted, there is *something* - and then be brave and discuss it with him/her.

god bless!

[97. Marcus said the following at 1:43 AM on Apr 8:]

97

Too many comments to follow and read! But definitely a wealth of information here!
So i guess i'm not alone in this after all!
This whole friendship-courtship thing is a dangerous mine(mind)field that requires careful and prayerful treading.

So what happens when she says:
"I'm don't think i'm ready for a relationship now"
or
"I don't think this is going to work out".
Does it mean "BACK OFF, GO AWAY, NEVER"? - Something along those lines was said to me. She had just had a long term relationship end on her. I guess, i made the mistake of not letting her heal by herself. But she had always been a friend - a good friend (I believe she even used the term 'close friend') prior to this situation. She had always been there for me, and vice versa.

This put a huge strain on our friendship. I basically had to find ways to avoid her completely - Block her on IM, deactivate my facebook account etc..it was my way of getting her out of my system.
(My friends, it's not the best way! she'll know..)

This affected my studies greatly, and i had to struggle the whole first semester of graduate school.
I never saw her for more than 5 months. I barely spoke to her over IM or whatever means. I never called her. The most i did was a card for Christmas...which all other friends received too..

----
Today 8 months later, things have improved somewhat. I believe she's moved forward, acquired a FIRE for Christ, made new friends. Same goes for me, i've gotten plugged into a Church, got myself involved with campus and Int'l student ministry.

The scary thing is this:
I thought the feelings had gone away after being away from her for so long.
I can't lie. They're still there.
I feel like telling her again, but the cost was so high the last time i shared with her.
I enjoy hanging out in groups with her and her/our friends. I try not to engage her too much in our group get-togethers...

What do you folks think about,
DTR: "May I try, again?"

[98. Jessica said the following at 10:03 AM on Apr 9:]

98

It's very interesting that we pose the question why we keep the opposite sex friend around when we are in a relationship when it seems that there is a more obvious question or questions that need to be asked, such as:
What if this friendship is not just about your inappropriate level of closeness but your own personal fears and insecurities?(fears that your relationship won't fulfill your needs the way you want or believe you need it to)

What is your real reason for being this close to a single young man/woman? Are you using this relationship as a buffer against loneliness?

Are you expecting more fulfillment from your relationships with your friend/significant other than you are your personal relationship with Jesus?

The more we draw to God and grow in our level of intimacy with Him, the more insight and clarity you receive in your own relationships. It is because of the love of God that we are capable to love others.

Just my thoughts.....

[99. The Nameless Woman said the following at 7:07 PM on Apr 10:]

99

Jessica - your point is one of the most interesting by far. I've recently been discovering for myself that the best way to guard my own heart around my guy friends is to view the friendship in as an unselfish way as possible. I don't want to be friends with a guy simply because I desire to get a boyfriend out of the deal.

I still don't know when to bridge the gap between being "just friends" and pursuing something further but I guess it's all one step at a time. For now I'm most comfortable in groups.

I've long decided that the only men that I'd come strongly attached to an emotional sense are my dad, brother (whom I share excellent relationships with) and my future husband. Other guys can become even good friends with me but currently I reserve any of my pure, emotional honesty for my girlfriends.

[100. N said the following at 8:46 PM on Apr 11:]

100

I would actually like to seriously disagree with this article and most posts on here. I, as a female, think a close, intimate relationship with guys is essential to life and especially essential before you ever think about dating him.
I will state first that I think it is essential to life because they bring a different perspective to things. At this point in my life I am to be single, and I am sure God has called me to that point for now, but only for now. I still need that male problem solving persona in my life, which my close male friends provide. And they need my attention to details. We say men and women are very different, yet we apparently don’t need those differences during our single years?
Now I will tell you why I think an intimate relationship with a guy is essential before you date him. As a sophomore in college another guy transferred to a school in my area. We were sorta friends for about a month. I met him at church. He talked and really seemed to walk with this “I love Jesus” attitude. He had read all the books, his prayers made me shiver, his Bible looked worn. He basically seemed perfect. I was thrilled when he asked me out and of course said yes. We started dating and getting to know each other. He ended up “date-raping” me about a month into the relationship, and it gets a lot more complicated, but that’s all that needs to be said here (it’s rape, not date-rape, I assure you that is a dumb term). You can’t know someone well enough when you’ve only know them for about three months. Yeah, you can avoid that with other people knowing them and stuff, but who could know them well enough when they are new in town? That’s why any other guy I date will be someone I’ve had a close intimate relationship with for a while before I go out on even one date with them. That's why an intimate friendship with the opposite sex is necessary.
I think in this article the "Biblical" reasons are flimsy at best, as I saw someone else point out and won't waste your time on.
As far as it replacing your need for other relationships, I disagree. There is a difference between a relationship where both of you are looking toward a future together and planning and thinking about that possibility and a friendship where you both are planning separate lives. From personal intimate friendships with guys I've seen them pursue and start dating other girls who I had no problem with and who had/have no problem with me. They didn't mind our intimate friendship at all.
If I found that I didn’t need to have these friendships during my college years (which have been spent at a women’s college) and during my graduate school years (a phase I start this fall) I would probably decide that I never really needed a husband honestly. I spent most of a year without that close relationship with guys that I had always enjoyed, because of my bad relationship with the prior mentioned guy, and I thought that perhaps I never needed that in the future. I was doing okay without them after all. But having those friendships now has taught me that God didn’t create me to be single and at some point in the future he wants me to get married. They also show me the type of guys that are out there, the godly, amazing, good guys. I forgot they existed for a while, and having these good Christian men as friends remind they do exist. They set a standard for any guy who ever tries to win my heart. They check out the guys who do show interest in me. I had one guy friend look at me and say absolutely not to this guy I was talking to, he told me later that he knew him from school and he was bad news for me, but at that moment I just trusted my friend and talked politely and moved on by politely declining giving him my number.
I obviously have put lots of thought into this. I once read a quote I don't remember it word for word or who said it, but it said something to the extent that friendships between men and women are great, but at some point one or the other will fall for the other -- maybe for a time, maybe at the wrong time, maybe forever. This quote may be true. But I would rather risk getting slightly hurt by developing a crush on one of these intimate friends than dating a guy who's just a friend I don't know that well and risk the heartbreak from that. I know that the guy who wins my heart one day will have come from one of these close friendships, because I’ve dated one guy who didn’t and it was the worst experience of my life. And I personally would prefer for you to not tell guys that they should not pursue intimate friendships with girls, because if they stop I will probably never get married.
Perhaps you see that as me having a trust issue and needing healing. I have had counseling and have moved on in my life. Two years later I have very healthy relationships with guys again and I am able to trust them, I just understand better how well you need to know them because not all are trustworthy. Don’t be naïve. I still would never feel comfortable dating someone who I didn't know well enough to look at them and know what they were thinking behind their different facial expressions and to know what their reactions are in different situations and to know that they would never purposely hurt me.