Church Membership
by Ted Slater on 03/08/2007 at 10:00 AM
We published an article this morning that, in effect, encourages our readers to find and join a church. Not just attend regularly, but to go through the membership process and formally become a member of that congregation.
Pastor Mark Dever, whom author Suzanne Hadley quotes in her article, has seen his congregation grow dramatically since making church membership a priority. Surprisingly, perhaps, most of these new members are under 35.
There are expectations from members, of course, but also benefits of membership. Suzanne writes that "the church body commits to providing the member with accountability, financial help, prayer support, biblical teaching and training in evangelism. An additional benefit for the member is being known and nurtured by the pastors, elders and fellow members. Maybe it is this 'belonging' that attracts young adults, the least loyal of all church attendees, to membership."
Because of my own need for a sense of "belonging," and because I was convinced that it was commended by Scripture, I became a member of my church back in Virginia. While membership at my current church here in Colorado Springs is a bit less formal, my wife and I have done everything we can to bring ourselves under the covering of our new church. We've found that getting off the fringe and really tying in to our church has enriched our lives and given us greater opportunities to be blessings to others.
I'd be interested to hear what our readers' experiences have been with church membership.
1. DrLiz said the following at 10:06 AM on Mar 8:
I like my current church because you could join without having to "go down front" and then stand there and meet everyone after (a staple in most Baptist churches as far as I can tell, at least here in The South).
2. Jade said the following at 10:35 AM on Mar 8:
Unfortunately, I fall into the category of young people who bounce around to several different churches because I and my husband are unable to find a church where we feel would be a good place to put down roots. Granted, we have been moving around in the past few years (between the two of us, we've lived in 6 different places since we got married 3 1/2 years ago) so we haven't really had time to find a church together. We really struggle to find a place that has a diverse group of ages (many places are either really elderly or young and immature), solid biblical teaching, uplifting worship, and sized so that we can actually get to know people and not just be part of a throng. Maybe we are too picky, but I’d like to see more articles on Boundless on how to find a great church.
3. Sarah said the following at 10:35 AM on Mar 8:
One thing that makes me a little reluctant to join a church is that I have had to move around a lot.
* I took classes at a local college and lived with my parents for a year, attending and joining a church here.
* After a year, I moved across the state to another university and joined another church. I went home this summer and at Christmas, so I wasn't around for significant portions of time, and I had to switch churches again when my church moved to a new location that was significantly farther away.
* A year and a half later, I have graduated and moved hours away from all of these churches.
* I'm planning to work until next fall and then (hopefully) start graduate school, possibly in another part of the country, which would make me uproot again.
I feel like a nomad. By the time I go to a church long enough to join, it's almost time to move again.
Is it better to join even though I know I won't be there very long, or is it better to attend and be active in the church while refraining from formal membership?
4. Becky F. said the following at 10:47 AM on Mar 8:
Church membership seems like a fairly big deal for Lutheran churches (at least the Missouri Synod, which I am a member of). We practice infant baptism, which automatically makes that person a member of the church. Also, confirmation at the end of 8th grade, which makes a person an adult in the church, and allows that person to participate in the Lord's Supper in our church body. And weddings are really only performed for members, with some exceptions. New members, dropped members, or transfering members are affirmed by the voters assembly so that people are not members of multiple churches, or counted as a part of the congregation when they haven't shown that they are.
Because membership in the Lutheran church is much more common than I would guess in other church bodies, we have a problem with "delinquent" members; people who are members of the church, get the "benefits" of membership (free offering envelopes, reduced tuition rate in our schools), but who do not regularly attend our services.
It helps a little having "adult confirmation" classes for those desiring to be members of our church, so that they are taught what the LC-MS believes (see www.lcms.org if you're curious) and that when they stand up in front of the church and are "installed" as members, they are publicly affirming before our congregation that they also believe what our church teaches.
5. Becky F. said the following at 11:01 AM on Mar 8:
This is an interesting discussion, because some of these things are foreign to me, and others are things I will be somewhat experiencing soon with my husband attending Seminary.
How it works in the LC-MS is that once you are a member of an LC-MS church you can fairly easily transfer to another LC-MS church without going through new member classes or having to attend a specific number of times at the new church. Transfer may take a few months for the paperwork to flow between the two churches, but I don't think it's a very tough process. (I've never had to do it myself because I've been at my current church since I was 12, and my parents took care of any transfers for my family before that.)
In 2009 when my husband graduates with his M-Div from Concordia Seminary he will hopefully be placed as a pastor of a church. This placement process does involve some interviews, but other than that, my husband and I have no say in where we will go. We will need to transfer our membership to a church that we are not familiar with, and that we have relatively no choice but to attend. But that's how the placement of new pastoral graduates works in the LC-MS.
I think maybe we're too into American consumerism that we need to shop around until we find something we like the best, when maybe we should just attend and join the local church that is the denomination we agree with. Granted, churches will have problems that we may not want to get in the middle of, which is the reason my parents moved my family between churches a few times when I was little. But every church is going to go through bad times, every church is filled with flawed people, and led by flawed people.
6. John said the following at 11:25 AM on Mar 8:
I did the church membership thing. I took the New Member classes, met the elders, gave my testimony in front of the Session, stood up in front of the congregation on Sunday morning. It was a huge church (2500 plus) and, some years later, while the senior pastor probably would recognize my face, he knows next to nothing about me. In a megachurch you have to get involved with small groups or it's as anonymous as Grand Central Station. I tend to be a more introverted person and make friends more easily in smaller settings.
I eventually left that church (for reasons not worth getting into here) and, like Suzanne, I still get mailings from them. I have not formally joined another church (I attend services at several different churches now) but I believe that I was saved into Christ's universal church, not to one specific local body.
7. Zeph Greenwell said the following at 11:25 AM on Mar 8:
The reason that young people bounce around more in churches has little to do with non commitment but has a lot to do with the volatility of life at that moment. Young people are going to college, getting married, and finding jobs. These all might require them to move from one church to another several times over a short timespan.
As for myself, I have never been a member of any church but have always been an active participant and have always paid my tithe. I have been attending the same church for seven years with only one break when the church my wife had attended asked me to serve as a volunteer youth pastor, which I did for about a year. Now we're back at my regular church serving in the youth ministry and college ministry.
8. DrLiz said the following at 11:37 AM on Mar 8:
Becky:
The problem with joining 'the local church that is the denomination we agree with' is much, much more complicated in denominations without any kind of formally centralized leadership structure (power all in local church).
So, besides the fact that there are at least 10 different Baptist churches within spittin' distance (as we say here in 'The South'), and over 100 in this mid-size metropolitan area, there may be significant doctrinal differences between churches (even just among Southern Baptists, without getting into the Independent Baptists, etc.).
However, I agree that consumerism in churches is a problem, especially among those whom we would otherwise consider committed Christians. In spite of being in the same town for seven years of graduate school, I never put down roots in a church because "I'll be leaving anyway..." or "they don't have anything for singles who aren't either 22 and in college or 40 and divorced with kids".
When I got my job and moved to a new town, I made it a priority to find a church home. Fortunately, God made it easy for me this time, and I'm still at the same church.
9. Ted Slater said the following at 12:11 PM on Mar 8:
John -- I'm having a hard time understanding your last sentence. Have you heard somewhere that joining a church was part of some salvation process?
For some other commenters: Do you "attend" your family, or are you a member of your family? Isn't there a real, tangible difference between merely "attending" a church and being a member?
Please don't hear what I'm not saying. I'm not condemning those who merely attend a church (for various perhaps-legitimate reasons). But I think many could do better than merely attend.
10. Lynn said the following at 12:21 PM on Mar 8:
I agree that membership in a church is a good thing and biblical. My concern with Suzanne's article, however, is the concept that members of the church vote and that "majority rules." Where in the bible are we encouraged to vote as a church on any issue? Spiritual positions were appointed through prayer and by those already in recognized & fruitful positions of spiritual leadership. Democracy doesn't work in the church because not every believer is mature; if the majority of believers are not mature, the "majority rule" could be (and is in some churches) a problem, leading to bad decisions.
11. Lynn said the following at 12:26 PM on Mar 8:
One other comment about choosing a church...I think it's good to discuss this but at the same time Christians have to be careful not to look for the perfect church. There isn't such a thing and it is neither profitable to yourself nor to others to continuously search for such a thing. I've known people who've changed churches frequently in order to find one that fits them perfectly, and it causes divisions and discontent, and disrupts ministry. Obviously sound doctrine is extremely important but you're not going to find a church where you absolutely agree with everything.
12. KC said the following at 1:32 PM on Mar 8:
I'm nearly 24, and my experiences with churches that require/push membership have been very bad. I have a condition that makes it hard for me to read people and fit in, and have found that churches that are membership-oriented are the most difficult for me to fit into.
Scripture is clear that we Christians are ONE body, and that we join when we become saved. Church membership creates barriers between believers causing some, like me and my family, to suffer deeply.
13. Josh said the following at 1:39 PM on Mar 8:
Being a pastor and wondering why so many people opt not to become members is rather troubling to me. Some people think (from my experience) that when they become members then they are going to be asked to "work" in the church when they arn't comfortable with doing those things. Its almost like they want to have the community, but not "commit" to the body of believers they come into contact on sundays. It hurts me to think that some churchs have a application form for membership, and not that is all that bad, i guess. I believe that all that is needed to be a member of a church (any christian church for that matter), is having a relationship with Jesus Christ, having put their full trust in Him. One thing that drove me from church when i was younger, was all of the disunity there was among denominations. And how they were so at each others neck, that you had to believe the "exact" same things as they did, otherwise you couldn't be a member of that church. How far have we all fallen from where Christ originally wanted us to be, UNITED IN CHRIST. Christ is all that matters. But i do agree that members should know the testimonies of other members, cause it helps build community within the church to know where people have struggled, and can build each other up as well.
14. Mike Theemling said the following at 2:06 PM on Mar 8:
I attend a church in my town regularly, try to serve in its congregation (admittedly, I'm not doing as much as probably could/should), am involved with its people, but am not a formal member. Why? The abridged answer is that to me, when one signs up to be a member of a church, it signals that you are subscribing to that particular denomination's belief system. I know that it is not strictly true per se (most churches I know do not make you sign a binding statement saying you agree with X, Y, and Z doctrinal positions) but still, I am not comfortable with the notion that I would be identified as "Southern Baptist", "Prebyterian", "Methodist", etc. rather than just a "Christian".
Fact is that these different denominations may have things that I may not agree with doctrinally. It may be the acceptance of ordained women ministers, methods of baptism, political views, etc. These issues won't make me stop attending a church as the fundamental beliefs are kosher, but I'd rather not slap a label on myself saying I agree with positions which I really don't agree with or make others with that label uncomfortable saying I don't agree with it.
Josh and other people's comments about having an application or screening process for membership makes me a tad squeamish. Other than being a Believer, I can't imagine any other criteria for church membership.
I understand the benefits of having a church membership system (for metrics, a sense of commitment, etc) and think there's nothing wrong with a church having one or people joining it. It's just a personal choice for myself.
15. Jacob said the following at 2:17 PM on Mar 8:
I would venture to guess that fear of accountability might be a factor also. If I am not "in membership" than I can "opt out" of oversight meetings, etc or anything else I don't feel comfortable with. In reality, accountability and encouragment are two of the biggest reasons why someone should become an official member of a church.
Many of us complain about how "guys" and "girls" are avoiding commitment in relationship, and I can't help but see a parallel here. In many respects, joining a church is a statement of love for that particular body of Christians, and demonstrates your desire to build them up in the faith and to be built up yourself by them.
As a college student, I can sympathize with the difficulty that comes with trying to commit to a church while getting an education. However, I do not think this is a good enough excuse, especially for those who do not even attend a church weekly (my course load is pretty demanding and I am still able to pull it off). Call it tough love, but honestly, guys, I'm sick of hearing lame excuses that serve only to demonstrate my assumption that our generation has no real sense of ecclesiology (doctrine of the church). And believe me, I want to be wrong about this.
16. CHBC member & lovin it! said the following at 3:04 PM on Mar 8:
My husband and I are so blessed now to be members of the spotlighted church, CHBC. DC is an extremely transient area, and upon arriving several years ago, we found the most convenient mega-church and attended for about a year. The teaching was light, seeker-seeking, and our sense of community was nil - we often walked away empty. But boy, the music, lights, and movie-screens were impressive - and that coffee bar! My, don’t we focus on what’s important?!
A friend urged us to check out CHBC, and at first, we were scared away by the old hymns, and of course, the "process" to become a member - and those sermons sure were long and heavy! But gosh, I thought, there are SO MANY young people like us here!
And, I've never been to a church that cared whether I stayed or went (nothing personal), by means of membership. What’s the big deal at CHBC??
CHBC (and other churches that follow the 9Marks philosophy/ideas) may ask you to be interviewed and share your testimony (um, shouldn’t they care about that?!), and “stand[ing] in front of members and be[ing] voted on” (no offense Suzanne!) was a little over exaggerated – it’s hardly like that at all. But overall, that “process” we were so scared of, and (*gasp*) the commitment? WELL BEYOND WORTH IT - the church that cares that much about knowing you, your life and your testimony – and your level of commitment to them - cannot help but have committed leaders and members that give back 100 times over.
I have seen church membership in a new and positive light since coming to understand the worth in the emphasis. When they say a ‘committed body of believers’, they mean it. People know who you are, they care about you, they pray for you, and they want to teach you...all as an excellent, healthy, biblically modeled church should. I’ve learned, grown and fellowshipped exponentially in the last six months.
Not that I'm advertising for CHBC, but the concept of joining a church never made much sense to me until I saw the concept at work – I mean really working. I would highly recommend trying to locate a church in your area that is attempting to institute the 9Marks ideas. Do a church search, take a visit - you might be in for the ride of your life!
http://www.9marks.org/
17. Jethro said the following at 3:33 PM on Mar 8:
I have never joined a church basically because I don't want a bunch of people becoming so intimately familiar with me and the intricacies of my life.
I recognize that for some people this 'being known' and 'accountability' is really what church membership is all about, but to me it is highly intrusive and makes me very uncomfortable.
18. Shelley said the following at 4:06 PM on Mar 8:
I admit I have yet to commit to a church. Since graduating from college in 2000 I have had a different job every year (except the last 2 yrs where I was stable). I was trying to find myself, my passion, and I felt the need to travel abroad, on the East Coast, and do a ministerial program. God has worked in my life through my travels, so I don't regret anything I've done. Now, I am ready to be stable to develop those deeper relationships within a church and community. I understand the challenge of constant movement.
Thank you for the quote:
"My relationship with my church effectively becomes like a common law marriage; I'm living the commitment minus the binding contract". Wow, that's impactful. It's something I will pray into. There has been a pattern of not commiting to a church and me not commiting to other things in my life. I want commitment, but it's a scary thing!
Great message, thank you! -Shelley
19. Suzanne said the following at 4:41 PM on Mar 8:
CHBC Member,
I took my description directly from what Pastor Dever told me. :) Of course, I made the them sound generic in the opening paragraph to get people wondering. It's good to know the "voting in" process wasn't intimidating. I didn't think it was. Although, Pastor Dever definitely gave an impression of its seriousness.
20. Jethro said the following at 5:41 PM on Mar 8:
Actually I'm interested in this 'covenant' people at CHBC sign. Is it meant to be legally binding - ie are you obligated to give 10% of your income?
I must say the tithing requirement sounds very cult like. Do they check up to make sure you have given your correct salary? Do they check to make sure you're giving your 10% each and every week? Oh, I find this makes me very squeamish - what about people just giving as they feel called?
21. mm said the following at 6:53 PM on Mar 8:
I guess I'm the opposite. I moved to town and started looking for a church to join, maybe because my parents taught me that was the "right thing" to do (whether that's good or bad...)
I joined a church with a great group of young adults. That was five years ago. Now, everyone else in the group except me has moved away--marriage, jobs, school, etc.
I think most other people would kind of have drifted out a while back when everyone else was leaving. But I feel like it would be pretty selfish of me to leave just because my friends don't live around here any more. (Friends are not exactly the point of church.) Plus, I've gotten pretty involved in the church.
Now I'm not sure what to do. Pray for new friends?
22. CHBC Member & Lovin it! said the following at 7:51 PM on Mar 8:
Hi Suzanne!
Thanks for your reply and clarification. I certainly didn't mean to give the impression that membership voting isn't as serious as Mark said; I was just concerned by comments like Lynn's in response to that: "My concern with Suzanne's article, however, is the concept that members of the church vote and that "majority rules"...the "majority rule" could be (and is in some churches) a problem, leading to bad decisions." And DrLiz's comment about having to "go down front"...Sounds scary!! ;)
I just want to make sure that no one gets the wrong impression of the voting process - her comment reminded me of my (not-so-proud) sorority days when there really was "voting", and it was not in a kind way. CHBC is informative and loving in this regard. You're absolutely right in summarizing the process as 'not intimidating, yet indeed serious'...and I would add, full of love!
And for Jethro, please see the covenant for yourself to understand what it says/means:
http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/
Click: "We Are" - "Governed" - "Covenant".
...not the least bit scary!! :)
23. ag said the following at 9:49 PM on Mar 8:
Interviews with the pastor??? Being voted in by the congregation??? I have to be honest, while reading this my first thought was of John 12:43. "For they (Pharisees) love the approval of men more than the glory of God. (They value the credit of men over the credit of the Lord)" Amplified Bible Translation
24. Mandi said the following at 10:31 PM on Mar 8:
Wow -- this is definitely "Doozy Week" on Boundless! :)
This post, "Church Membership", actually goes hand in hand with the one posted right after it, "Lazy, Fantasized Bible Study": what we believe is intrinsically tied to whose interpretation of the Scriptures we're going on (or not going on), and how we express those beliefs, whatever they may be, in prayer and in our lives.
E.g., the Bible speaks several times about baptism. Yet, people who identify as Christians run the gamut from dismissing that as non-applicable or "legalistic", to believing it's a symbol of new life in Christ, to believing that baptism is not a symbol but is actual re-birth, necessary for salvation (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:2-4, Gal. 3:27, Col. 2:12, 1 Pet. 3:21). (I guess you can tell where my Church is on this spectrum, eh? :) As it happens, I guess this is a fitting example for me to use to show the relation between the two posts because these "interpretations" informed how I "joined" the Body of Christ.) And that's to say nothing of how people are to be baptized, and why! And yet, these interpretations cannot all be true, by definition. Some of these interpretations cannot be supported by Scripture, or oppose what's written.
Many other topics (all pretty much "doozies") show this link between Biblical interpretation, and where and how we worship God. Whether and why one should partake of the Lord's Body and Blood, is another example. Purgatory is yet another, though that's a belief (with the greatest respect to Catholics) that was not universally accepted by the Early Church (not even thought of, actually) because God's Word contains teachings going totally against that concept.
So, then the question becomes whose Scriptural interpretation is right? Who has been interpreting all of these "doozy" passages from the very beginning and how? What were they doing to live these Words of God? How did they decide questions of competing interpretations, as they had as early as the ones recorded in the Book of Acts regarding circumcision? As one of this week's articles on Boundless points out, it's always a good idea to learn from the incomparable wisdom of the earliest Christians.
We should never ever forget that the believers were united -- very much unlike today -- in one Church (though scattered geographically) in one Faith for at least the first 500 years or so. That kind of made me sad reading these two posts. But let us pray for that unity and clarity again, for the Glory of God.
25. Alvin Lam said the following at 12:05 AM on Mar 9:
I believe it's imperative that believers aligned themselves to a local church. My prayer as a young christian then was that i might be part of a church and be able to serve. When believers attend church and hope to see what they can benefit from it, they stand to lose because they don't realize that joy comes in the course of duty; unfortunately many search for happiness and waste time waiting for it to come. Jesus says, "it's more blessed to GIVE than to receive." What's more. the Body of Christ metaphor tells clearly that when we are not "connected" we are the ones on the losing end. Membership allows us to serve according to our giftedness; keeps us accountable; challenge us to practice loving others and "stickability." Too many people walk out on a relationship when things don't go well. Too many churches in their bid to be "relevant" end up being "irreverant" to the biblical teachings of church membership. Too many churches are what I'd call "cut-flower" churches - severed from roots that provide the nutrients to sustain it. Jesus says "without me you can do nothing" Without the Head can the Body survive?
In the church - the Body - the Family - we stay together thru thick and thin. That's how we grow. That's how we will mature. Love is a choice; not feeling only. Only when we choose to be part of a local body then are we ready to love in agape fashion - love driven by choice.
26. Jethro said the following at 3:30 AM on Mar 9:
Well CHBH Member and Loving it,
That little covenant sounds all fine and dandy, but nowhere does it mention appropriation of your income, so I am assuming that it is perfectly acceptable at CHBC not to tithe at all if you so wish? Or do I somehow feel like such a course of action may attract 'church discipline'?
Interesting, isn't it: if the government taxes us it's a 'slave tax' but if the church taxes us then there's not problem at all....
27. Chris Krycho said the following at 7:50 AM on Mar 9:
Jethro, the one significant difference is that the church isn't asking you to give %40 of your income (which, for many income brackets here in the U.S., isn't an unusual percentage -- and some have to go more than that). While we do have freedom as New Testament believers, I'm curious where from the New Testament you get the impression that you're not supposed to give. First, we have repeated admonitions by Paul that indicate that we are to give. Second, Jesus nowhere and in no way suggested He was abolishing the tithe. To the contrary, comments such as "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's" suggest rather strongly that He would have said to pay both your taxes and your tithe. (In fact, it seems like He's saying pretty much exactly that.) As well, where in the New Testament do you see a lowering of the standard? All I see is its being raised. The Old Testament talked about killing people or committing adultery -- actually doing the physical act. The New Testament talks about lusting after a woman and about thinking angrily about your brother. So while ceremonial practices may be gone, the rest of the law is not: to the contrary, it is raised a notch. And the example of the early church (see, for example, Paul's testimony about the Macedonians in 2 Cor. 8) is that they gave and gave beyond what they could afford. I don't think the standard has changed any.
Lastly, I'm curious -- and you certainly needn't answer if it's too invasive a question -- why you would not want to tithe and give to God. After all, the money is His anyway; that's simply how He tells us to use some of it. I can tell you from both my own testimony and the testimony of many others that if you are faithful to give to God, He does not let you run out of money. Does it get a little tight at times? Yes, it does. But He never fails to provide as much as is needed.
As someone who has seen the benefits even to myself of tithing, I would strongly encourage you to do it. As your brother in Christ, I would strongly encourage to join a church body -- a good one -- and risk being known, because as difficult as it may be, that's ultimately what you and I were made for: fellowship.
28. LauraMH said the following at 9:23 AM on Mar 9:
CHBC Member & Lovin it said that:
CHBC is informative and loving in this regard. You're absolutely right in summarizing the process as 'not intimidating, yet indeed serious' ... and I would add, full of love!
Regardless of how much "love" is wrapped around the process to make it seem warm and fuzzy, still sounds like a popularity contest to me. The voters may be the most amazing Christians in the world, but they are still judging people, and they are human too. There's enough people-judgment in the workplace, I don't want my church to be like that too.
I also wonder about the tithing at CHBC. My understanding is that the LDS church requires it.
29. Jane said the following at 9:41 AM on Mar 9:
My church requires membership in order to teach Sunday school, participate in missions trips, join a church board-- and I think it's a great requirement. I feel a sense of accountability to the church, something I'm sure most of us agree we need, whether or not we want it. I joined in college, one summer, in order to teach VBS. Although I went to school several states away, I'm still glad I joined. After college, I served as a missionary and this church supported me, because they knew me as a member. And when I came back-- sure, I thought about finding a church that "fit" me better, but I see it a bit like a marriage: I joined a church that, while imperfect, isn't doctrinally heretical, loves God and people, and is an expression of the Body in my town. So I am committed to my church. And if she strays, if the Body here starts falling, it's my responsibility to help restore. I don't want someone to give up on me if I'm in error, and I don't want to do that to my brothers and sisters, either. Membership reminds me that I can't be a lone Christian; I need my church and my church needs me.
30. Mandi said the following at 9:48 AM on Mar 9:
Jethro, LauraMH, and others who question tithing,
I would only add to Chris Krycho's excellent points that the only time God ever asked us to try Him was on this very issue of tithing, in Malachi chapter 3:
9 You are cursed with a curse,
For you have robbed Me,
Even this whole nation.
10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
That there may be food in My house,
And try Me now in this,”
Says the LORD of hosts,
“ If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
And pour out for you such blessing
That there will not be room enough to receive it.
11 “ And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes,
So that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground,
Nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in the field,”
Says the LORD of hosts;
If you reject something that was not clearly overturned in the New Testament (like loving friends and hating enemies), then you're really subscribing to a view that not all of God's Word is God's Word.
31. Becky F. said the following at 10:31 AM on Mar 9:
I see evidence in Acts, and throughout the New Testament that while all believers were united by faith in Christ's death and resurrection, they still had separate churches in different cities. Acts 15 and 16 use "churches", the plural, so we can assume there was more than one church within the ancient Church body.
Also, Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians about how the different people were making distinctions between following Paul, Apollos, or Peter. Of course, he said they were merely people, that we should follow the Gospel we have been taught. However, we obviously can't agree on Biblical interpretation between denominations, and the Bible does say that it is important to have sound doctrine (see Titus). Unfortunately, we can't all even agree on grace and how salvation works... granted, we can relatively agree when we start using the same Theological vocabulary. Sacramental beliefs and Biblical interpretation of prophecy, and what are descriptive v. prescriptive passages, are what divide the church the most.
Of course not every person within a denomination agrees 100% with everything that denomination teaches, but it is good to know what you believe and find like-minded people and worship together.
Of course, as Christians, we are all members of God's universal Church, just by believing that Jesus Christ died to pay for our sins. And while I may disagree that it is a Biblical mandate to be a member of a church, it is still a good thing to believe a doctrine and serve/worship in a specific church that also believes that doctrine.
32. Becky F. said the following at 10:45 AM on Mar 9:
I cannot speak for CHBC, but the voters assembly at my church, which is only a proportion of the actual membership, merely approves of the comings-in and goings-out of members. I have never in a meeting witnessed anyone saying no when the motion is passed to accept the new members. It's not a judgment process, it's an order process to keep church records accurate and so that the most "prominent" members in the church (mainly, just those who do faithfully attend and are in the voters assembly) know the names of the new people so it is easier to make them feel welcome.
I don't like the application process or the pastoral interview, but attending a new member class so that you can be sure if you want to actually be a member of that church, so that you will generally agree with the doctrines they preach is a good thing. Standing in front of the church during a worship service so that people can see the new members faces is also a good thing.
And the tithing thing, it's not hard, it doesn't hurt (all the time), and it is good stewardship (like we were talking about with environmental issues). It is Biblical. And when you think about where the money goes, when you give money to church you are paying the pastor's and other church employees' salaries, paying for Sunday school/Bible study materials, and paying for the utilities which allow the church to be open on Sunday and throughout the week. When people do not give what they should then there will be no churches for people to attend because there will be no means to support ministry. It's not just an abstract idea of giving money to God, but a concrete work that you can see by what ministries that church is able to do within the community, etc.
33. Cora said the following at 12:28 PM on Mar 9:
Hello,
This issue is one I hadn't considered much until beginning attending the current church I'm at. The 'beforehand' story is that the church I grew up in was so small (less than 50 people) and an independant non-denominational church where membership wasn't even mentioned. We were all so involved in each others lives through the church school (where all the kids went and most adults taught or helped in some fashion). Then throughout university I did a co-op program so I was only in one place for a maximum of 8 months at a time. (and never having BEEN a member of a church I just didn't even consider it as an issue - nor did any of the churches I attended even though I was active in them)
Now, though, I've graduated from university and am regularly attending a church with my boyfriend and he's talking about becoming a member. At this point I'm just trying to understand what membership is/what the point of it is/why I should consider it. I mean for me by attending a church I'm committing to it with my financial and other resources.
Although, I must admit that like Mike T. I don't care to put a label on myself because, quite frankly, there is one issue (not a foundational issue, but a secondary one) that I don't agree with. I guess I'm wondering if that lack of agreement should hold me back from seeking membership or not... any comments?
34. Chris said the following at 1:06 PM on Mar 10:
Jethro, I have been a member at Capitol Hill Baptist for over a year, and I can definitely say that the membership process, especially the voting in of members, is not a "popularity contest." As far as the interview, the pastor and a few other men simply sit down with the prospective member and talk with him/her in a warm, yet appropriately serious way, to hear his/her understanding of the Gospel (which just has to be Biblical, not greatly detailed), and to hear about his/her conversion, and any (hopeful) signs of subsequent growth in Christ since that conversion. These are very basic attributes of the Christian, not legalistic "add-on's" of sinful men. About the voting process, I echo the words of another person above -- I have been to many membership meetings in my time at CHBC, and I have NEVER seen it treated as a "popularity contest." I have also never seen anyone who has been interviewed by the pastor, and proposed to the congregation as a possible member, NOT be voted in as a member. The interview process is to keep unbelievers out of church membership (NOT out of attending the church regularly and being welcomed there though). Biblically speaking, the church membership is to be comprised of those who are saved by Christ. According to the Bible, Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to make her His radiant bride. To those who would say that they are members of the "universal church" only, and who refuse to join a local church as a member, ask yourselves: If membership in a local church is not that important, in the scheme of things, then why did Paul write, and specifically form, each one of his New Testament epistles to "the church" in this or that city (Rome, Corinth, Galatia)? The believers in these cities were not floating around, unaccountable to a particular body of believers. They clearly had basic guidelines for church membership and church discipline, evidenced by the fact that in one letter to a church (at Corinth?), the believers were told to hand an unrepentant man in the church over to Satan so that his soul might be saved! Believers are also told in Scripture not even to eat with professing Christians who live lives of habitually hardened, unrepentant sin, as an overall pattern of their lives.
Church discipline at Capitol Hill Baptist is never done in a harsh, careless, unloving way. It is usually done because of willfull, deliberate refusal to at least attend church regularly, over a sustained period of time (several months or more). After all, if we truly love God, should we not want to be with His people at least weekly, to worship, fellowship, and hear the faithful preaching of His word? It seems to me that Christians who refuse to join a local church as members often have views of the church, and what it means to be "loving" as Christians, which are guided more by worldly, individualistic (or sentimental, emotional) ideas, than formed by Biblical truth.
35. Darin said the following at 8:02 PM on Mar 10:
Since we are comparing church membership to the covenant of marriage.... Is it considered adultery if I visit another church while out of town? What if I move and have to find a new church...do I need to file for divorce? Seriously, I don't think that the comparison fits.
Furthermore, the above comparison cheapens the Biblical analogy between the marriage covenant and the covenant that we have with Christ. (Note: That covenant is NOT based upon church "membership".)
Another point that I feel merits some comment occurs at the start of this discussion:
"Pastor Mark Denver, whom author Suzanne Hadley quotes in her article, has seen his congregation grow dramatically since making church membership a priority."
Well, that's precisely why health clubs and grocery stores push memberships too. (If we're going to require official membership before we offer the benefits of accountability, prayer support, evangelism training, pastoral attention, etc....then why not go all the way and issue plastic reader cards for people to swipe before they can receive communion? Personally, I don't believe in making people jump through religious hoops in order to receive the above mentioned benefits.
I have one more comment to make on a question someone asked in a previous post:
"Do you 'attend' your family or are you a member of your family?"
My answer: I am a "member" of my family...and I didn't have to fill out any paperwork or go through any review processes in order to be accepted.
Let me conclude by saying that I don't disagree with the concept of church membership entirely. I just don't consider it a sacred institution on a par with marriage. Nor do I believe in making people jump through religious hoops in order to receive full acceptance into the church body.
36. Chris said the following at 1:49 AM on Mar 11:
Darin, in the New Testament, the apostle Paul explicitly likens the husband's relationship to the wife in the covenant of marriage to Christ's relationship to the church: He loved her and gave Himself up for her. As I wrote above in my previous post, the descriptions of church guidelines and practices (such as discipline for continual unrepentant sin on the part of a professing beliver) in Paul's epistles are basic and clear. They are not about "jumping through hoops." They are about discerning who truly should be brought into the membership of a Christian church. There are attenders in a church, and there are members. The church membership, according to the Biblical standards in Paul's letters amd elsewhere in the New Testament, is to be made up of people who have professed faith in Christ and repentance of sin. This is obvious from the fact that Paul tells one body of believers to hand an unrepentant man in their midst (in the church) over to Satan so that his soul might be saved. Therefore, churches who take membership seriously, and have a process that illustrates that seriousness, are only following the Bible's model to be sure, as any fallible group of humans can be, that the church membership is made up of those who are actually saved and walking (albeit imperfectly) with Christ. Unbelievers can, and should be encouraged to, attend church. Until they repent and trust in Christ for forgiveness of sin and for salvation though, they cannot be members of the "called-out ones," the ones for whom Christ gave Himself up, according to Paul-- the church. This is simply being faithful to the Biblical texts.
37. Becky F. said the following at 11:16 AM on Mar 11:
"I have one more comment to make on a question someone asked in a previous post:
"Do you 'attend' your family or are you a member of your family?"
My answer: I am a "member" of my family...and I didn't have to fill out any paperwork or go through any review processes in order to be accepted."
Well, your parents did the paperwork and you have a birth certificate and a social security number. ;)
38. Darin said the following at 12:32 PM on Mar 11:
Chris, thank you for the clarification. I can fully support "membership" in the context in which you are speaking. I think that we need to be careful however to make the distinction that church membership is NOT what seals our salvation. (I think that the analogy of marriage is a poor choice because it lends itself to that misconception...weather intended or not.) I also think that benefits such as "prayer support, biblical teaching...being known and nurtured by the pastors, elders and fellow members" should be available to all. (These were listed as "member benefits" in the article.)
One final note: The church that I attend offers no formal membership and there is a very high level of accountability. If you profess to be a Christian at our church (and you will be asked) then you can consider yourself fully accountable. There is no opting out of it via membership avoidance; which seems to be a loophole inherent to the more formal process.
39. Ted Slater said the following at 6:19 PM on Mar 11:
Darin -- how would your church enforce Matt. 18:17 and 1 Cor. 5 (especially verses 2 and 13)? How would the restoration of this man portrayed in 2 Corintians look in your church?
I honestly don't know how a church can formally "expel" someone from their midsts if they haven't first formally noted their "membership."
40. Darin said the following at 8:12 PM on Mar 11:
Becky, I think that we are in agreement but some clarification is still needed.
My point was that I am a member of my family simply because that's where God placed me and my parents accepted me. You could burn my paperwork and throw out my social security card and I would still be a member of my family.
Your point if I understand right, is that had my parents not filled out paperwork and if I didn't have a birth certificate and social security number then my status would not be recognized by the government. Nor would I have access to certain benefits that are reserved for legal citizens (such as voting, financial benefits, running for office, accountability to the IRS, etc.).
I fully agree with that concept. In fact, that analogy works far better than the analogy of "marriage". So, let's go ahead and apply it to church membership.
If I accept Christ as my savior that makes me a child of God. As a child of God, I am a member of His family ... regardless of weather the church government recognizes it or not.
However there are certain benefits that the church government reserves for it's "legal" members (i.e. voting, financial benefits, serving in leadership, accountability, etc.).
Therefore, in churches that offer formal membership ... people should join in order to support the program.
Now, that's an analogy that works for me.
41. Darin said the following at 9:18 PM on Mar 11:
Ted, that's a good question. In the case of someone caught in a sin such as the one mentioned in 1 Corinthians 5, the pastor would call together the elders of the church and confront the man. If he repented then he would be allowed to continue his fellowship there. If he refused to repent, the pastor would inform the congregation of his offence and ask him to leave the fellowship.
In terms of restoration, if the man repented he would receive counseling in addition to his regular church attendance. If the man refused to repent, he would receive continued prayer from the church and continued contact from the pastor outside of the church for as long as he would permit it. During contact, he would receive invitations from the pastor to receive counseling and restoration to the fellowship at whatever time he was ready to repent. (This process was carried out in our church once and it worked out that the man was eventually restored.)
I'm not sure how the process would work within a church with formal memberships; if the person would be allowed to continue attending services... That raises the issue of what it means to put someone out of your fellowship. Does it mean in the literal sense or does it simply refer to a legal action? (If someone has some solid proof either way I'd like to hear it.)
42. Becky F. said the following at 10:19 AM on Mar 12:
Darin, I like how you used the family analogy in terms of gov't recognition. I was just being kinda silly with the birth certificate comment, but I like the way you expounded on it.
You said: "I'm not sure how the process would work within a church with formal memberships; if the person would be allowed to continue attending services... That raises the issue of what it means to put someone out of your fellowship. Does it mean in the literal sense or does it simply refer to a legal action? (If someone has some solid proof either way I'd like to hear it.)"
How things work in the Lutheran church is we "excommunicate" members who are living in unrepentant sin. For example, my uncle had an affair, got a divorce from his wife, and moved in with his girlfriend. He was not allowed to take communion, but the church didn't bar him from attending worship in hopes that he would be moved to repentance. I'm not sure how other churches do things, but we don't push people outside of the church, just cut off their "membership" benefits, like leadership, communion, voting, etc.
43. Mandi said the following at 11:33 AM on Mar 12:
Becky F., with great respect, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you meant in your post about the plural "churches". (If I have, I'm very sorry, my dear sister in Christ.) There were, of course "churches" in different cities, but they did not differ in doctrine or practice. Our Lord's Apostles could not have been preaching conflicting doctrine. Eph. 4:5 says there was "one faith, one baptism", the Book of Acts is full of descriptions of the Disciples and Apostles in the church being "of one accord", and the Apostle Paul says that what is taught is taught "everywhere and in every church" (1 Cor. 4:17). Acts 15 shows how the Early Church dealt with differences in teaching and doctrine - by a meeting of all the Church leaders (the Disclipes and Apostles) coming to one decision, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. These men were eyewitnesses to Christ's ministry. Later, their own disciples would carry on the same practice of meeting and sorting out new challenges or questions in council (not by one person, with great respect to Catholics), using the Scriptures and the Tradition handed down to them from the Apostles, as the Apostle Paul commanded (2 Thess. 2:15, and see below).
Besides, with great respect, the historical record simply does not support the view that the different plural churches mentioned in Scripture had plural views about the Faith, including the major points of disagreement that you've highlighted. The model of Scriptural interpretation of the Early Church was taken from Acts 15. No one dared use personal opinion in the place of the teachings of our Lord to His Disciples, who in turn faithfully taught the same faith to others, and so on. (Why would they if they had the real thing?)
The first major dispute over the Faith happened in 325 A.D., and was discussed at such a meeting. Sadly, the first schism happened in 451 (and that has only now been recognized by most to have been a linguist misunderstanding, not a theological one at all), the "big one" happening in 1054. After that, ironically, the idea that tried to respond to Roman excesses, sola scriptura, itself spawned thousands of often conflicting teachings (which by definition cannot all be true)...and churches. (It's also ironic because that idea of sola scriptura itself is not expressly found in Scripture, and not in keeping with the practice of the Apostles regarding tradition found in 1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Thess. 2:15, 2 Thess. 3:6). And so here we are today...
May God have mercy on us and bring us all back to be in "one accord" again, for His Glory.
44. Becky F. said the following at 2:16 PM on Mar 12:
Mandi, I was not saying that I thought that Acts 15 & 16 using "churches" meant that they all had differing doctrines. I was simply making a point that there was evidence of different churches within the Church. Thank you for allowing me to clear that up.
However, maybe the letters to the churches in Revelation is somewhat an example of different teachings within different churches. Also, Paul's letters to the different churches mostly focused on different things. There were different focuses and heresies in the individual churches, so while they were not obviously denominationally split like the current Church, they still had differences between the churches.
Does this make more sense?
45. Nicole Baughman said the following at 4:01 PM on Mar 13:
Aren't we already members of the Church (the body of Christ that is)? So, why should we sign a paper saying that we belong to a system when by the blood it is already marked?
46. Ted Slater said the following at 5:04 PM on Mar 13:
Nicole -- did you read the article? It addresses your question pretty well.