Misunderstanding John Piper?
by Motte Brown on 02/13/2007 at 3:19 PM
John Piper isn't one to mince words. That's why I love his books and sermons. But I also hate them for fear that I'll read or hear something so convicting, my spirit won't be at rest until the matter is settled within. And it's usually an issue I want to remain unsettled. So I'm always surprised when I hear him preach a message that leaves me a bit ... confused.
Pastor Piper made quite a stir in Atlanta this year at Passion -- a Christian conference for college students -- when he used an expletive in a breakout session. I blogged about it here. And now there's something else that came out of that conference which gave me pause when I read it. It's a talk titled, "How to Deal with the Guilt of Sexual Failure for the Glory of Christ and His Global Cause."
The title is self-explanatory. His premise is that the guilt of sexual sin -- masturbation, fornication and online porn -- causes young people to give up on their dreams of doing something radical for the Lord.
Here a portion of the talk:
I have not come to Atlanta to waste your time or mine. I have come with a passion that you not waste your life. My aim is not mainly to cure you of sexual misconduct. I would like that to happen. O, God let it happen! But mainly I want to take out of the devil's hand the weapon that exploits the sin of your life to destroy your valiant dreams, and make your whole life a wasted worldly success. Do you know the real, deeper meaning of Passion's "Do Something Now" campaign?
- 20,000 towels for Atlanta shelters
- 11 wells for fresh water in Africa
- college education for 20 international Compassion students
- the New Testament translated for the Dela people of Indonesia
- a freedom center for the Kurds in Northern Iraq
- life-changing surgery for kids in South America
- Bibles for families in East Asia
- liberation for those enslaved in sex trafficking.
What's the point of all that? The point is not this is what you do with your loose change. The point is: This is what you do with your life.
Piper's message about not wasting your life is a needed one. But there are purposes beyond missionary journeys like being a spouse and parent which are as important and more directly speak to one's sexual sin. If someone is struggling with masturbation, fornication and online porn, it tells me that that someone is burning with passion. But instead of directing them toward marriage, which Paul does in 1 Corinthians 7:9, Piper instructs them on how they can conquer it through "theology". This sounds like a sort of willful celibate service, not a gift of celibate service.
But maybe I'm just misunderstanding him.
1. Becky F. said the following at 3:53 PM on Feb 13:
Yeah, I read/skimmed through the link of the speech manuscript (which had some typos, by the way). It seems like his talk is suggesting that if people occupy themselves with missions, etc. they won't have time for sexual sin. But filling time with good things doesn't change lust of the heart and mind, even if your hands and eyes don't have time to help you lust. It doesn't seem like a very practical way to "cure sexual misconduct". His suggestion doesn't require a heart change, just a change in what is done with a majority of a person's time.
2. David Bromberg said the following at 4:03 PM on Feb 13:
You're just misunderstanding him.
His point is not "the way to heal your sexual sin is to get good theology." Instead, he's suggesting a shift in focus. As one who struggles with sexual sin, it's really easy to give into Satan's accusations of how crappy a person I am, and how I'll never amount to something for God until I get over this sexual sin. And so my walk with God can amount to nothing more than that -- I would feel guilty all the time and that just leads to hopelessness, which leads to more sexual sin. So Piper's main point is that we have to understand God's love for us and how completely we've been washed clean and don't have to feel guilt anymore, and how we can battle against sin, and for the things God cares for, and take a bigger focus, with his help and his love. This applies not only to sexual sin, but to all sin. The pursuit of godliness is a good pursuit, but if we're wrapped up in our failures, we won't understand God's complete forgiveness and we won't aim high. So your point about marriage might be a helpful weapon against sexual immorality, but it might not -- married people still struggle with pornography, or the shift could be to other sins. What we really need to understand is God and how he views us, and what that means for what our focus should be in our walk with him.
3. Mike Theemling said the following at 4:34 PM on Feb 13:
I agree with David that the point of his speech was to say that focusing on sin (and failing it) reduces our effectiveness towards the Kingdom whatever our calling is, whether it be overseas missions, being a good spouse/parent, etc.
Satan (the accuser) loves to do the one-two punch combination. He first tempts you to sin, then when you give in he says, "See, you are weak and pathetic. How could God use you?"
And with sexual sin, because of the social stigmas attached with them in the Church and Biblically they seem to be in a class all by themselves (sinning against our own bodies) it is more suseptible to guilt than others.
The question now that some would bring up is should the guilt management be done affirming that masturbation is a sin or not?
Masturbation is a controversial issue among Christians. Mr. Piper's unequivocal stance on it is rare since most hedge the issue and either say, "It's wrong if you do it and..." or "I'm not going to say it's sin but still you shouldn't do it". I know Dr. Dobson is actually quite liberal in his stance and defends his stance in an FAQ on Focus' website. He acknowledges many do disagree with his position.
Without giving my unequivocal response (because I'd probably hedge the answer too) I'll simply say that if someone struggles with lust and his/her sex drive it should be an indicator to use that energy positively (i.e. marriage and the pursuit thereof). As much as redirecting or coping that energy (exercise, cold showers, etc) sounds good in theory, it rarely works well in practice.
4. chizadek said the following at 4:35 PM on Feb 13:
Piper is specifically addressing the issue of guilt from past sins, so it is no surprise that he does not address any of the practical ways of fighting sexual temptation, including marriage. That said, he is a supporter of the gift of singleness rather than gift of celibacy interpretation of 1 Cor 7;7, as can be seen in the extract below from his foreword "For Single Men And Women (And The Rest Of Us)" in Recovering Biblical Manhood And Womanhood (http://www.cbmw.org/rbmw/rbmw.pdf):
V. The Apostle Paul calls singleness a gift from God.
“I wish that all men were [single] as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that” (1 Corinthians 7:7). In essence, Jesus pointed to the same thing in Matthew 19:12 when He said, “The one who can accept this should accept it.”
With the gift comes the grace to be chaste. Margaret Clarkson is right: “His commands are his enablings.” She reminds the single person, after dealing with her own single sexuality for more than forty years, that chastity is not only commanded but possible, year after year, as a gift from God.
5. K.M. said the following at 5:10 PM on Feb 13:
I deeply appreciated John Piper's words. They gave me new resolve in my life. Pointing people towards marriage may be good, but for someone like me who currently has no prospects for marriage it does little good. What am I supposed to do? Masturbate until I get married ... which may be 3,4,5, or more years away? No! I can spend my single years as Piper suggests. During this time I will train myself in godliness so that I am ready for marriage. From everything I can tell, marriage does not bring an abrupt end to sexual temptation and sin. For some, getting married may be one of the things they feel unworthy to do. I say good job John Piper!
6. Eric said the following at 11:44 PM on Feb 13:
Because I know that some who read this will be those searching for help in overcoming this horribly destructive sin, please allow me to share a series of messages that the Lord used to open my eyes in a new way regarding the deception that is lust:
The "Rescuing Sex" series of three messages that Josh Harris gave can be found near the bottom of this page
Oh, *please*, *please* don't give up hope, if you feel that you're trapped in this sin! Surrender to Jesus -- pray immediately when tempted in this area, and quote the Word, our Sword of the Spirit!
Some verses I find invaluable for battling lust:
Psalm 19:12-14
Romans 8:6
I John 1:9
I'd also recommend Josh's book on this, originally called "Not Even a Hint". Now, I believe it's titled, "Sex Is Not the Problem, Lust Is"
Also greatly helpful is a piece written by Steve Watters called, "In Your Face, In Your Mind: Resisting the Power of Pornography", which revealed some awesome truths as well. I found it years ago off of the www.pureintimacy.org site and saved it locally. Sadly, I can't find a live link to it anymore, but perhaps Steve would be so kind as to post a link?
7. Jason said the following at 6:21 AM on Feb 14:
Motte, I think you're misunderstanding Piper but I also think I might be misunderstanding you.
I don't think that Piper's message had anything to do with the gift of singleness. And, like chizadek said, I don't think Piper's goal was to address how to resist sexual temptation (i.e. marriage) but how to resist the guilt and hopelessness that sexual sin can cause. Regardless of why people commit sexual sin, Piper is dismayed that their sin discourages them from doing great things for the Kingdom (married or not).
Do you think Piper is advocating pouring your passion into missions instead of marriage? Or are you concerned that Piper's examples of "great things" are mostly mission-related and he seems to kinda knock the Christian who works a 9-to-5? Or is your issue with looking to theology, as opposed to God's strength and grace, to solve our problems?
8. Susan said the following at 11:38 AM on Feb 14:
As a single christian for two decades..I like what Elizabeth Elliot has said that ALL single christians have the gift of celibacy.Liking it and embracing it are totally different issues. It is only done through discipline and radically transforming your mind to agree with God's word about covenant marraige and sex. While having never heard Piper I do read his books,I find him and the whole Soverign Grace team sometimes "majors" on this topic a little too much - to the exclusion of alot of other things. Focusing on missions and other areas of service can take alot of pressure off the desire to marry as it keeps you focused on God's service. Of course marrying is God's service as well but your interests will be divided and their is no marraige in heaven.
Marrying just because your burning is not always the answer either. I feel that some of the movements out there that are trying to curb sexual immorality in the church are doing this to the detriment of sound compatability and discipline.Pushing people to marry young because of this is wrong.Following God's will for your life is the answer. If you marry young while doing that so be it. You can still burn simply because their are not enough compatable people or possibly you are defrauding each other in which case its cut bait and run as there is a bigger problem there. Proably sexual addiction. Sexual addiction is no different than any other types of addictions and marrying beacuse of it is not the answer.
9. Motte said the following at 2:41 PM on Feb 14:
I appreciate the comments here. They've helped me process my thinking on Piper's message.
Let's set the stage again. Piper is speaking to college students about how the guilt of sexual sin can prove prohibitive for missions work because the devil says, "you're not good enough." Piper goes on to put this guilt in perspective using Colossians 2:14-15 about God nailing our record of debt to the cross, thus disarming Satan's condemnation.
Piper is excellent on this point.
However, Piper then proceeds to tell thousands of young single Christians that their purpose in life is missions. It's too broad a stroke in my view, particularly when bringing one's sexual passions into the picture. The millions of Christians living today who are not smuggling Bibles into East Asia may have simply been called to something else. And if they struggled sexually with masturbation, fornication and online porn, then they were probably called to marriage and bringing forth godly offspring.
Now missions and marriage aren't mutually exclusive. But when Piper speaks of conquering the guilt of sexual sin outside of the context of marriage, I can only assume he's calling these young single Christians to missions outside of the context of marriage as well, regardless of the burning their experiencing.
I think it would have been better for him to have tied the two together. To say, "Live radically for Jesus. Do all these things I've mentioned. And if you're burning with passion, find the wife of your youth and do them together."
When speaking about sexual desire, Dr. Albert Mohler says specifically that it has it's own purpose.
So by leaving marriage out of the equation when speaking on this issue with young people, I think Piper missed it.
10. Adam said the following at 6:59 PM on Feb 14:
Motte,
First, I don't see John Piper as saying that missions is something everyone is called to. He mentions downtown Atlanta, and those enslaved in "sex trafficing." Atlanta is here in the US, and sexual trafficing is certainly something that can happen anywhere.
I think that what he is getting at is that, in many cases, sexual sin is a result of some kind of selfishness inside of you. I think what John Piper is saying is that we need to care for other people instead of thinking of them as sex objects. In other words, the main problem is that, when it comes to people, we need to see them as Christ sees them. It is only then that we will truly be able to make a difference in the world.
Second, as far as 1 Corinthians 7:9, there is even some question as to whether or not he is referring to virgins at all. In fact, I agree with Craig Blomberg who says that this is talking to widows and widowers, and telling those who have had their spouse die how they can know if they have the gift of singleness.
Thirdly, therefore, I do not agree that marriage will help sexual sin. People do not sin sexually because they have no outlet. People sin sexually because they are not thinking in a Christlike manner. As Cornelius Van Til used to put it, they are not "thinking God's thoughts after him." Hence, the solution is not to get married, but to learn to pattern your thoughts about reality after Christ.
In fact, if sexual sin is not addressed before marriage, you can easily take that sin into marriage leading to pornography, adultery, and all kinds of sexual debauchery, which will just simply end up hurting your spouse.
God Bless,
Adam
11. Debbie Maken said the following at 8:47 PM on Feb 14:
I think it is more than just the oversight of marriage. I actually see some level of contempt for marriage making.
Piper goes so far as to say that someone who finds himself in his old age rocking in front of his lake house and handing down an "inheritance" to his children is confirming "worldliness." In his own words, Piper cites them as guilty of "middle class mediocrity." I wear that badge with honor, and know that what my husband and I create will be handed down to our own legacy, as God intended, and not to unknowns within the State or the Church. The entire concept of inheritance has always been built on blood/familial relations, not on people who are merely joined together by common values. In fact, without having a direct object (i.e. children) for whom to work, the entire notion of creating an inheritance goes out the window, which would explain the "worldliness" and seeking of temporal pleasures of most singles.
This is the problem with concepts of modern day "radical obedience," it is looked upon as some sort of individual thing, as opposed to the Joshua principle, "as for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord." Both the church and that nation-state are made up of families, not just individuals, some of whom have decided to form families. Neither entity would function as intended if the healthy family unit was no longer the base.
Moreover, "radical obedience" is made to look far harder and complicated than it has to be. It is looked upon as something that is "out there," as opposed to doing the simple things that constitute life "right here," like taking a wife, making a home, bringing heirs into this world, and leaving the world a better place because the covenant continued.
If I were a single person reading Piper's sermon, the only thing I would gauge is that perhaps I can make it up to God for my sexual disobedience by doing some missions work. Theology trumping biology only works to partly assuage the guilt. The reason I say partly is because while God does forgive, wisdom often does not. And instead of Piper going down that road to say to young people, that perhaps their sexual misdeeds should point them toward the meaningful pursuit of marriage, he encourages them to consider getting towels into the Atlanta inner city. Yeah, I can really see some single saying to Satan, "Stop accusing me, I've got some towels to deliver now."
I like Piper. But sometimes, I think that good ministers (perhaps because they have been married for so long, and are presumably sexually satisfied) just miss the humanity of it all, and that we are frail, and that our sexual natures will indict us. Because we are made "male and female," we cannot escape from our sexual nature, so why not start telling young people from the very beginning to get married, and then get the delivery truck for towels. These are not either-or propositions.
Piper, while encouraging singles who will undeniably struggle with sexual sin in going down the road of protracted singleness, is not giving them sound and complete advice here.
Debbie Maken
12. Ame said the following at 11:25 PM on Feb 14:
I get the sense that "the church" is becoming very frustrated with sexual sin and the consequences thereof because they don't know what to "do" to stop it; and they don't know what to "do" about those left in the wake of the consequences of it.
I cannot address the lust issue, but I can address the addiction issue - including on-line pornography, which I believe is addictive.
What I do not like about Piper's statement in the quote is that he dismisses the gravity of the sin.
And I appreciate Adam's comment: "In fact, if sexual sin is not addressed before marriage, you can easily take that sin into marriage leading to pornography, adultery, and all kinds of sexual debauchery, which will just simply end up hurting your spouse."
To believe that marriage is a "cure" for sexual sin is an absolute lie.
I was sexually abused by my parents, so I did not see the "signs" when I met my PK husband-to-be in 1984. He had many posters of women on his walls and actually became angry when I asked him to throw them away before the wedding. He was physically very agressive with me. He read sexually explicit material. From where I came from, this was "normal."
What I didn't know then, which he confessed some 17 years later, was that getting married for him was reaching for hope that sexual freedom in marriage would "cure" his desire for pornography and masterbation. It did not. It never does. Not only did it not cure his desire, it further frustrated him and enhanced his guilt and anger and made him more abusive.
Pornography, in any form, is addictive; and addiction is progressive. There would be no addiction if it didn't create a need for more and more and more. His addiction progressed till he contemplated then acted upon soliciting prostitutes.
My ex husband was/is a brilliant man. He learned well from his missionary parents to live one life in public and another in private - he was taught well how to live a double-life. Not a difficult step to cross over those skills to live two parallel lives in the real world and in his fantasy/acting out world.
Would we say that to rid oneself of the guilt of alcoholism or drug-addiction one must engage in missions? How absurd.
Can one ever work for their unearned forgiveness and relief from guilt that only God can offer? Is Piper motivating young people to trade in their guilt for works in the realm of missions? If so, I would submit that this is an abusive way to motivate people to do "the work of the Lord."
Sexual sin IS serious; and God clearly states that in His Word. And it IS serious because of what it does do to a person's mind and heart and body.
There is hope and healing and forgiveness for sex addiction. It IS a very hard road. It is NOT easy. But it is possible with God and the resources available.
But to say that keeping busy in worthwhile ventures in order to attempt to wipe away guilt is very sad, and sickening.
I've often been told "the church" doesn't know what to do with those of us who are divorced or widowed. To those I ask, "Well, have you asked US?" And they look at me with the most astounded expressions and answer, "No."
If men and women, like Piper, want to know the reality of the consequences of sexual sin, they only need to ask those of us who have been sucked into its sick wake ... not to mention our children.
Sex addiction needs to be dealt with immediately, and most certainly BEFORE marriage. If one cannot work through their sex addiction before marriage, though I absolutely support marriage, I would suggest never marrying and dragging a spouse and children down with you.
13. Raj Sharma said the following at 7:25 AM on Feb 15:
When will Mr. Piper be digging his well in Niger? Is he exempt since he is married?
Does he know that the "middle class mediocrity" pays his salary and his provides for the operational budget of his church.
The same "middle class mediocrity" gave MILLIONS for tsunami relief, the Katrina disaster, the earthquakes in India and Pakistan, and on and on.
If Mr. Piper feels so strongly about this, he should do what Rich Mullins did. Take a vow of poverty, give away everything he has and go live with and serve the poor.
14. Dan said the following at 10:43 AM on Feb 15:
For my $0.02 worth, I am not sure Dr. Piper was literally saying "either you get married and have your 2.5 kids and your nice white picket fence in the suburbs and live a lukewarm faith, or you please God by giving away everything and move to a 3rd world country and be a single missionary." However, when I read his article, it kind of did give ME that impression (or I could possibly have been "preconditioned" into seeing it that way because I read a few of the above comments before reading Dr Piper's article).
Anyways, I know of many single Christians who love God and dearly want to have a spouse and kids and a home, and I don't question their love for the Lord. I also know of some married Christians that are living the suburban lifestyle and I DARE NOT accuse them of being lukewarm either.
Besides, take a look outside your window and see all the "nice middle and upper-class people driving around in their nice cars." How many of them know the Lord? Many of them do, but many of them don't. Isn't the "safe, white, middle and upper-class" neighborhood a mission field also? You all KNOW that there are some in the suburbs with dying marriages, kids using drugs, cancer, etc. What about the building across town that houses all kinds of people with disabilities? There are many lonely people in those buildings. What about the ministry center across town that houses men who are about to be released from jail, and these men need another man to come along and show them how to be a real man and a responsible citizen? What about your co-worker who is just your average guy or gal, but their life consists of nothing more than getting up, going to work, doing a good job at work, going out with friends afterwards to relax, and then going home to sleep, and then the same thing the next day?
Do those kind of people really matter?
15. Danielle said the following at 12:07 PM on Feb 15:
If someone is struggling with masturbation, fornication and online porn, I think they need to deal with it in a biblical matter of discipline and self-control, before moving towards marriage and bringing anyone else into their sin, which could be painful if these issues continue. Fornication is the only sin mentioned here that would already involve someone else.
Also, I think you're misapplying 1 Corinthians 7:9 here, which states:
"But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."
It seems to me that this passage is speaking about burning in passion for another person. If this is the case, then you should marry. The rest of the passage seems to be within this context. But just because you randomly burn with lustful passion via the internet or masturbation, I don't think that pursuing marriage is a cure-all. Those problems will probably still remain if not dealt with.
16. Double G (G²) said the following at 12:18 PM on Feb 15:
Mabye it's just me, but it seems that perhaps there really isn't anything that Piper said that was inaccurate....
For the man to say that we should be avoiding sexual sin because of mission ... well, it seems that it was simply a statement meaaning anything that could glorify the Lord's Work of Spreading the Gospel/Representint His Kingdom ... and honestly, this would be an extremely good deterent to avoid sexual sin.... How can we live holy as God is Holy without remembering that we don't belong to the world anymore and that we're foreigners on Enemy Territory, commissioned to Represent God's Standards and His Ways to those who don't play by His rules so they can turn to HIM:
1 Peter 2:9-12
9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
11Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. 12Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.
The entire reason a person is suppose to honor God with their bodies isn't simply because of the pleasure they'll recieve sexually in marriage if they'll honor Him, or even because of the dire consequences of their sin (though both are extremely important reasons for doing so....that is, Living for God's Pleasure and Walking in the Fear Of God, Proverbs 5 and Ephesians 5:1-7)....
The entire reason we're to keep ourselves pure is so we can shine brighter for Christ....The entire purpose for Marriage/sexual purpose is so we can better represent our relationship with Christ (Ephesians 5:25-33) ... and to Spread the Good News for CHRIST!!! We can't deal with sexual sin if the focus is still on us, our welfare or preservation from destruction rather than a purpose greater than ourselves....
And Apart from keeping the Work of the Good News in View, the basis for which everything we do was ultimately meant for ALONE (Matthew 28:16-20, how can we truly be as effective as possible in dealing with the issue of sexual sin?
What do ya'll think?
17. Jason said the following at 12:32 PM on Feb 15:
There's no question that there are ample ministry opportunities in everyone's home town. But I wonder how we justify ministering in our hometowns where there is a church on every corner when we know that there are parts of the world with no Christian ministry at all. There are people in my neighborhood and at my job who need Jesus, but I'm not the only Christian they know. If I abandon those ministries to go to unreached areas, others will pick up the slack back home. If I stay where I am, who will fill the gap in the unreached areas?
18. Jennifer said the following at 12:47 PM on Feb 15:
Excellent points, Dan. The problem we're seeing is that each year, we keep losing a thin edge of the wedge as far as family life is concerned-- even in the church. The age of first marriage keeps rising, the birth rate keeps dropping, resulting in family life become less of the norm and the isolation of single life becoming more common. Yes, there are many single people living responsible lives, and no, marriage isn't a guarantee that an individual won't go on to develop a sexual addiction, as was mentioned by an earlier poster. But as the rate of singleness keeps increasing, the margin of "at risk" people also increases, as many of those people go without the stabilizing influences of marriage. We see this in the higher rates of crime and addiction among single people, male and female alike. Like that Joni Mitchell song goes, "don't it always seems to go, you don't know what you've got til it's gone".
I don't think Piper intended to disparage marriage and family life, but the problem with his grandiose style of expression is that he leaves himself wide open to misinterpretation, as evidenced by the debate stirred in numerous posts here. To young ears it can sound like middle class family life = bad, celibate mission life = good. As such he overlooks the possibility that just as many young people may avoid serving God over the guilt of not really wanting to "give their all", as over the guilt of sexual sin.
19. Adam said the following at 1:41 PM on Feb 15:
Ame,
I mostly agree with everything you said. However, I don;'t think John Piper is saying that missions is a cure for sexual sin. I think the focus is on helping other people and making a difference in the world. This is something which sexual sin hinders because of the guilt. We cannot make a difference if we sit around feeling sorry for ourselves because of our sin.
Does sexual sin need to be taken seriously and be dealt with? Yes. However, part of dealing with that sin is to repent and believe that you are forgiven. What John Piper is saying [and this is why I think most people who disagree with him are characturing him] is that people can live in the guilt of sexual sins all their life, and it will end up destrying them, and wasting their life. Hence, someone may, indeed, get married, but his life will be totally wasted if he does nothing but hang on to the guilt of sexual sin his whole life.
Second, what I was objecting to is the idea that marriage can be a substitute for repentance and struggle against the desires of the flesh. It can't. I think my comment should be more appropriately stated that if a person thinks marriage is going to cure him, he is going to bring those problems right into marriage, and he will have worse problems than what he had before.
Of course, what do you do if someone you are interested in is struggling with sexual sin, knows it, is ashamed of it, and is repenting of it? That is a tough question. I don't think a definite "no," such as what you gave, is the answer. If we ban someone from marriage on the basis of a sin, then it seems that we would be ignoring the fact that we are all sinners. While sexual sin is abominable, we need to have compassion on those who are caught in it. It is a tough question, but [and I hope this answer won't be a cop-out] I think, perhaps, that question should be answered on a situation by situation basis.
But the guy you were married to had red flags written all over him. Pictures of women all over the wall???????? He thought it was "normal" to read sexually explicit material????????? There is no repentance here, and there is no shame here at all! What you have here is a person who loves his sin. That is, indeed, someone who we should stay away from when finding a spouse.
20. Leah said the following at 6:45 PM on Feb 15:
Ame, I think you are bringing a lot of bitterness and unfairness into your commenting here. A majority of men struggle with some sexual sin. Does this mean they should not marry? No. There are people, like your husband, who are completely unrepentant, or treat marriage like a cure. These are people who shouldn't get married. But then there are those who know their sin, are trying to beat it, and know that marriage is not a cure but that they still desire marriage and so seek to fix their problems so that their marriage is not affected. Now, these men may not have completely fixed their problems by the time they want to get married. Does this mean they shouldn't get married? No. They have the right attitude and the right mindset, and the support of a wife is incredibly encouraging to men.
21. Ame said the following at 8:04 PM on Feb 15:
found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_addiction#Pornography_addiction_according_to_James_Dobson
Pornography addiction according to James Dobson
According to Dr. James Dobson, pornography addiction causes a person to:
Become desensitized to the material, no longer getting a thrill from what was once exciting
Fantasize about acting out various pornographic scenes
Become callous towards ordinary sexual relationships
Become reclusive and attempt to hide the habit from family and friends
View the opposite sex as sex objects
View sex as being solely for the pleasure of himself or herself[2]
Dr. Dobson also believes that pornography leads to premarital sex, unprotected sex, prostitution, affairs and problems during marriage. Once married, Dobson believes that men who were or are addicted to pornography will be unable to be satisfied with their sexual partner, causing marital problems and even divorce. Dobson believes that pornography should be illegal because of its addictive effects. [3]
22. Leah said the following at 12:24 AM on Feb 16:
Yes, I believe it should be illegal too. None of what you said changes my opinion. You're acting like once a man views pornography he's a lost cause, and that's wrong.
23. Philippa said the following at 8:01 AM on Feb 16:
Ame, I think you are bringing a lot of bitterness and unfairness into your commenting here.
Leah, I don't see any bitterness and unfairness in Ame's first post. I thought her post was honest, moving and transparent. She comes down hard on sexual sin because she has been directly affected by it. Sex addiction is like other addictions: it's devastating, and it has devastating consequences.
Ame's post rung bells with me because many years ago one of my friends was virtually destroyed by her husband's dark sexual obsessions (which went way back to his childhood). And yes, he was a professing Christian, and at one point professed public repentance for his behaviour. Nobody would have guessed, from looking at him (he was an outwardly meek and mild type), that he was struggling with those kinds of inner demons. Unfortunately, in the end he chose to walk away from Christ and from sanity and to this day, as far as I know, continues to live in the sin which wrecked his two marriages. Tragic.
I am not inferring from this that people cannot change or be transformed by the power of Christ. Of course they can. All I'm saying is, there are casualties. I am grateful to Ame for sharing her painful experience and I thank God for her great faith in Him.
24. Dan said the following at 3:37 PM on Feb 16:
"But I wonder how we justify ministering in our hometowns where there is a church on every corner when we know that there are parts of the world with no Christian ministry at all."
Jason,
Why do I need to "justify ministering in my hometown..."? Where I am in life is where I am "called". Where I live and work and play and sleep is where I am "called" and that is where I am -- no apologies. Frankly, God HASN'T called me to fly across the world and plant a church or a ministry, so why should I do that? I am not a church-planter. That is NOT my giftedness, OK? God has called me where I am at, and that may include visiting with someone who is lonely. Is someone's lonliness here is the USA of lesser concern that bad drinking water in Africa? Really? You know that people die from lonliness, sometimes a slow death, and sometimes a quick death (i.e., suicide)? Is my "way" of ministring any less of a ministry in your opinion? You minister in the place where God has put you, and if he "calls" you to some other place, then he calls you there, and that "other place" may NEVER be more than a few miles from where you grew up! Frankly, there are many people in this country who DON'T know the gospel or haven't heard of the name Jesus. Many (note I didn't say "all") of your neighbors are never going to walk into a church just because it is sitting there on the corner. And maybe you are the person that your neighbor needs, not someone else just because we live in the USA.
Everyone else,
I attended the church that Dr. Piper pastor's at (Bethlehem Baptist Church) for a time, and I am pretty sure he isn't implying what I stated earlier (married or missions), for there are hundreds of missionaries at that church, and most of them (probably 90% or higher) are married. I also know FROM GOING TO THAT CHURCH, that that church has a large college-age population.
There may not be a better way of putting this, but the ministries that Dr. Piper mentioned in his speech are one's that are currently in focus or "trendy" -- hopefully not really trendy -- amongst 20somethings (e.g. view any copy of Relevant Magazine).
In my experience, I notice that people kind of think other Christians should share the same level of passion and heart that they themselves have. I have done that myself, but it doesn't work that way folks.
25. Chris Krycho said the following at 1:33 PM on Feb 17:
Sonya: I know you meant it as sarcasm, but you're actually right. You are in the center of God's will when you are consistently and continually pursuing missions and ministry. Or how else do you interpret Matthew 28:19? What that looks like for each person varies, of course, but we are all called to be light and salt in a dying world, and I think Piper is more concerned with people who use their "relational evangelism" as a cover for laziness, when he's talking about middle-class mediocrity. There is such a thing, and it's dangerous. We can be middle-class and excel and minister to many and see many come to Christ - or we can be middle-class and never achieve much of anything for the kingdom of God. Being an active, front-line part of the war requires sacrifice, and it's extremely easy not to sacrifice as a middle-class person. The lie is that it's good enough to just live a fairly comfortable life, make a good income, set aside some for a good retirement fund and a nice inheritance for your kids, and teach your kids to love Jesus. All of those are good things -- but none of them are the excellence to which we are called. You can do all of those and make a difference, or not. The notion that just doing all of those is the extent of the calling to which all of us are called is not Biblical; rather, it is born of modern Western materialism and individualism. Our lives are supposed to be living sacrifices to God; I'm not sure I see that being the case for those of us (myself included, all too often) who comfortably live our lives, rarely getting outside our safe zones, doing little for the thousands and millions in our own cities who are dying. No, we do have a call to be constantly in ministry and missions, and you cannot Biblically refute that. Most people are indeed called to "marketplace ministry," but most people focus on the marketplace and miss the ministry. That should break our hearts.
26. Jason said the following at 3:14 PM on Feb 17:
Dan, I apologize. I definitely should have made clear that my intention was not to belittle anyone or any ministry. I have not abandoned western civilization to live in the jungles myself, so I'm not criticizing anyone else. I was just trying to explore a question that I ask myself. God called us to take the gospel to all nations, so if the gospel had never spread beyond Jews living in Jerusalem then I think that we, the church universal, would have to ask ourselves how do we justify our failure to obey the Great Commission. And if my local church body doesn't take the gospel outside of the walls of its building, I think we would have to justify our failure to obey Christ's commands. So I was applying that same logic to myself and Christians like me. I agree with you that there are plenty of people right where I am that need Jesus and his cure to their problems like loneliness. I'm not trying to create a competition between whose souls are more valuable or anything like that. I guess I just think that people I know would have their choice of Christians to turn to if their loneliness became more than they could bear. But there are plenty of people in the world that don't know any Christians and would have to travel thousands of miles to walk into a church to talk with someone there. Shouldn't we be concerned about that?
I wonder if the New Testament isn't filled with enough calls to take the gospel to the nations that we shouldn't need a lightening bolt from heaven to send us out onto the mission field. Whatever your gifting is, I'm sure that God could use it on the mission field.
I'm not sure that I've responded to all of your questions and points, but hopefully I've clarified myself a little.
27. Dan said the following at 6:15 PM on Feb 17:
Thanks Jason for your reply. I guess sometimes when I rant I am also reacting to something I am struggling with inside me. I apologize for being overly reactive. I have never been on an "overseas" mission trip, maybe out of fear of traveling or the unknown. All I know is that just where I am TODAY is where I am supposed to be. I know that the gentleman that I have befriended is lonely and, if I remember correctly what he told me, no one Christian man had befriended him or visited him. And I was encouraged to befriend him by some mature Christians whom I respect very much. That doesn't mean that this will be my lifelong ministry, however, but it is where I am at now. Or it could be my lifelong ministry.
You and others have given me something to think about re: missions and ministry. It is an uncomfortable thought I have to admit. I recall from the first church I attended that it was emphasized that, when you walk out the doors of the church, you are on the mission field.
I have always been impressed and even fascinated by those who have "unique" ministries, not just the usual ones we think about when we hear of missions. That is just the way I am.
28. Leah said the following at 6:50 PM on Feb 17:
Sonya, I'm not sure you understand what ministry is. It's simply ministering to people ... that could be in kids' sunday school, with a tribe in africa, coordinating the worship groups at church, being a christian staffworker at a university ... not all that difficult, and not a particularly high expectation, to simply find a way to share our faith and to further God's kingdom...
29. Chris Krycho said the following at 10:52 PM on Feb 17:
Leah, I think you're right, except insofar as you say that it's not a particularly high expectation. I think I know how you meant it, but even so... it is an extremely high expectation. We're supposed to give our lives and our all to ministry, whatever that looks like. I don't think expectations get any higher than that.
30. Ame said the following at 11:50 PM on Feb 17:
Dan, my ex-in-laws are retired, career, foreign missionaries. In 1987, when we'd been married a year and a half, my ex and I took a trip there for two weeks, staying with his parents who were still there, visiting many of the places he lived, etc. I was never more happy when the gentleman handed me my passport and said, "Welcome Home" in the Miami airport! I wanted to get down on my knees and kiss that disgusting floor right there!
I think that we often romantisize "missions" in our churches. As stated in wikpedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missionary "The word "missionary" is derived from Latin missio 'sending'." And "ministry" in wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ministry "is the activity carried out by members of the church in fulfilment of the church's mission."
Befriending that man is beautiful, and just as eternal as anything else you could do.
God did not create us randomly; He created us purposefully beyond our comprehension. If we were all created for the same purpose, there would be no need for all of us.
As in statistics, it's all how you ask the question. In missions/ministry, often it's how it's worded that mystifies and romanticizes the work.
I find it extremely touching and beautiful that you would befriend a man whom obviously no one else has, and be committed to being his friend forever. THAT is incredible!
I think we like the idea of mission trips in the church because they are short-term committment. For two weeks (or whatever the term) you go to care for these people who are too far away to care for on a daily basis. They break your heart. But you can't do anything until you return.
But when you befriend a man who is local, your committment is not defined by a term of service. It is always there. That takes more committment than going on a mission trip.
I absolutely support missions and mission trips. But when we are misled to believe that one person's "idea" of missions should also be mine, then I have a huge problem.
Acts 1:8 is the verse often quoted for missions: "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
Jesus didn't say everyone was going to the same place; and they didn't.
We are Jesus' disciples when we are so close to Jesus that we are covered in the dust from his feet. There is NOTHING we do for Jesus that is menial. EVERYTHING we do for Jesus is eternal.
31. Sonya said the following at 4:17 AM on Feb 18:
Didn't mean to get us to far off topic. A couple of things.
1. The majority of missions work is carried out by women,which theologically is a huge problem with the ideology of this particular ministry of which were a posting these comments. Good luck trying to raise funding (cash$$$)
2. Since I am to affirm my womenhood my minstry is to pursue marraige. My ministry is my husband and children.
Sorry ladies and gents but you can't have it both ways.If you really understood the doctrinal positions of each denomination out there you would see the conflicts.
For me personally I reach more people for Christ at work than I would on a two week mission trip.If missions is your call start young and plant yourself permanently in another country. It all about relationships,not teaching God's word exclusively per say. Christ lived and dwelt amongst us in all areas of life.Most people in ministry full time aren't that focused on what you do the other 6 days of the week outside of church.Why do you think they try so hard to keep you in those 4 walls of the church building.Letting you leave? hah!
I'm being provacative I know. I'm not discouraging you just letting you think realistically. The best thing to do is find full time missionaries and visit them and visit missions dept's of bible colleges and seminaries.THEN CHOOSE THE DENOMINATION VERY CAREFULLY. IT'S KIND OF LIKE MARRAIGE,ONCE YOUR STUCK YOUR STUCK.
32. Dan said the following at 6:51 PM on Feb 19:
"I guess I just think that people I know would have their choice of Christians to turn to if their loneliness became more than they could bear. But there are plenty of people in the world that don't know any Christians and would have to travel thousands of miles to walk into a church to talk with someone there. Shouldn't we be concerned about that?"
As my last comment on this near-dead post, I would like to say that I regret most of my previous/apologetic post.
Again, my friend had NO ONE (as far as I know) visiting him, and some people who are in need don't know how to ask for help. It is sad that many MANY believers do NOT have a close friend to turn to. I am not claiming that people in other countries are not all that important (did you read that into my first comment?). I shouldn't even have to defend myself on this one.
"Whatever your gifting is, I'm sure that God could use it on the mission field."
Jason, again I sense (if I read your last comment correctly) that there is still some sense of "your ok in what you are doing, but you would do better using your gift on the mission field". What is the mission field? Sorry if I sound like the pharisee who asked "who is my brother", but I hope you are not implying that the "mission field" is always overseas. How far do I have to go overseas before I please god? (small g intentional). As per Ame's comment, there is this over-romanticization (sp?) of the mission field - I believe Amy Carmicheal wrote a book or article titled "The Way Things Are" to dispel the romance of being on the "mission field".
As per the new post on this site about William Wilberforce, didn't he stay in government to serve God there? Did he make the wrong choice? Am I in the wrong for working in my career using my God-given talents, here in the USA?
Besides, the USA is a mission field too. Don't believe me, then listen in on any conversation at my workplace, and how much of life revolves around nothing more than getting drunk.
Hey, if it sounds like I am defensive 'cause I am trying to protect my "middle-class, suburban mediocrity" then you can deal with that and I will deal with where God is leading me.
33. Chris Krycho said the following at 10:38 PM on Feb 19:
Dan:
I don't think you're buying into middle class suburban mediocrity in the least; and to the contrary I applaud you. You're doing what I wish the rest of the church would do: stand up and go, exactly where called has called them to go. That can be next door, to their job, or yes, to the other side of the world. You're going, though, and sharing the gospel, and that's not middle class mediocrity.
We need to be careful not to dismiss the reality of that mediocrity - it's very real and very deadly in the church - but we also need to not lump people in it who don't belong there. Dan, to you I say, keep up the good work! We need more like you.
34. xeres said the following at 1:21 AM on Feb 20:
This is interesting. I see that the issue boils down to two things: grasping the concept that all things can be redeemed and understanding the discipline of service. It's one thing for people to be sorrowful out of honesty and humility. It's another to belittle themselves by letting their lives involve around their guilt, which what Satan wants us to do. As for the service thing, I recommend reading a chapter on service in Dr. Foster's book "Celebration of Discipline", a book called "Commpassion" and this article called "Downward Mobility in an Upscale World" by Shane Claiborne. Just read them out for a sec when all of you guys have the time. Even IF I don't understand all of what they say, give some thought to what they are trying to communicate regarding of service. I would look at the Bible characters. All of their calling and services are very different and rather beyond ordinary or seemly dull at times to say the least. However, none of what we know now regarding of the bible wouldn't be here if these people didn't follow their calling. Think of Mary, the prophet Daniel, John the baptist, Samuel, Rehab, Hosea, Solomon, Moses, Deborah, Mordeci Giedon and so forth. Their involvement in serving God's will along with shaping Bible history is any but useless and medicore.
35. Leah said the following at 7:15 AM on Feb 20:
Sonya - I am sure Boundless would have no problems with women in ministry. It depends specifically on the ministry. Women are not to have authority over men when it comes to biblical teaching (look in 1 Timothy, I think.) Women are free to participate in any other type of ministry.
And as for denominations, I feel sorry for the person who thinks "once you're stuck, you're stuck", because this is quite untrue.
36. Leah said the following at 7:29 AM on Feb 20:
Chris - I don't think the wording is important, as long as people understand what I'm saying, which you admitted you do.
If I must rephrase, perhaps it would be better saying it's "not a particularly hard expectation/thing to do" rather than "high expectation". Yes there are challenges, but mission does not have to be difficult. We are right on its doorstep at home.
37. Dan said the following at 5:13 PM on Apr 28:
As a Christian who was single until my early 30s, I have a few thoughts on masterbation. First, I see masterbation as very different from fornication and porn. Second, in my humble opinion and experience, what makes masterbation difficult to discuss is the fact that the act itself is not "one thing" but can be "practiced" in several ways.
For example, some people use it as a means to avoid marriage, which is sinful. Some people enjoy it and entice themselves with porn as part of the practice--also sinful.
For myself, I viewed it as a "pressure relief safety valve", to be used only when necessary, not as a form of self pleasuring.
Young folks, men especially, have a very strong, natural, God-given sexual drive. To deny this fact is silly and is itself a lie and therefore also a sin. Truth is truth and we humans, as created by God, were given a strong sexual drive. The sexual drive is not sinful, nor is it uncontrolable.
Porn inflames the natural drive and must be avioded by singles. These days, most of what's on TV is also going to "fan the flames" and should likewise be avoided.
However, even after having done one's best, a normal single person will still get a point where sexual thoughts are constant due to the natural sexual drive.
At those peak moments, and only those moments, I used masterbation as a means to relieve the sexual tension and it's associated thoughts. The relief allow me to refocus my thoughts on God, my work, worship, etc.
In light of the above, I found masterbation to be a blessing which allowed me to get back to "normal". In other words, it can be used as part of a disciplined Christian life.
I'm now 47 years old, have been happily married for 15 years and have four great children. I can assure you that masterbation is a mere shadow of the joy of married sex.
38. ken said the following at 8:35 AM on May 3:
That's one of the best messages I've ever heard from Piper.
39. K said the following at 11:04 AM on May 4:
Jason, perhaps you may have never been to the third world e.t.c you seem to be under the impression that the Gospel has not broken ground in any way or as far as is needed. But having lived there a significant portion of my life I can tell you that it is far from that. I will use Africa as an example and I can say The Gospel has reached Africa VERY WELL and if anything my experience are people there tend to be more reliant on God for EVERYTHING because nothing is near as stable in their day-to-day life as it is in the established West. Like my pastor says the test of your character is not in the hard times but good times. So in some ways things can be tougher in the West.
Some even see the West as being the ones that need a revival given the state of how the nation is perceived as a whole i.e. leader in bad entertainment e.t.c.
Secondly, the idea that you need to physically leave the US to go on the "mission field" in Africa e.t.c. I have to disagree with. Scripture clearly stated (paraphrased) "how will they go if no one has sent them?" and by that you should also understand that finance is just as important in helping to send the Gospel around the world and supporting those who are physically called to the mission fields. Everyone can't go to Africa e.t.c. to preach the gospel. We must be as living epistles and affecting our communities right where we are. And if you look at our communities as they stand they sure do need alot of affecting!
I also believe that if a person cannot start influencing their own family towards Christ first, why should they travel halfway round the world to go and start that when even the bible says in Timothy "a deacon must be faithful to his wife, and he must manage his children and household well..." strikes me that your mission field should begin in your home first then you can branch out. (by this i am not saying if your family isn't saved you shouldn't go on missions! but I think my point is understood)
40. Clement F. Andries said the following at 7:32 AM on Dec 7:
I would like to recommend a book entitled "When Good Men Are Tempted,"by Perkins. It suggests strategies(defense mechanisms0 to combat sexual addictions. Strategies not dissimilar from those suggested by Piper.
41. JKoos said the following at 4:14 PM on Mar 8:
http://ezinearticles.com/?How-To-Deal-With-The-Guilt-Of-Sexual-Failure---A-Response-To-John-Piper&id=1022209
I wrote an article where I disagreed with John Piper's position. The link is above.
In Him,
J Koos
42. Jim said the following at 12:09 AM on Jul 30:
Dan, I'm entering this conversation rather late, but for the sake of anyone who reads your message, I will state this simply. Dan, you can rationalize sin however you like, but it is STILL SIN. Honestly, what are you thinking about when you masturbate? If we lust in our hearts it is sin! Masturbation is taking it one step further, and sows even more seeds of destruction. Matthew 5:28 could not be more clear! It's what's going on in our hearts that is the problem. These powerful sexual impulses are natural. But God gives us an escape from all temptation. I used to masturbate daily, multiple times, and in public bathrooms at times because I could not control myself. I don't masturbate anymore. The reason isn't because I no longer have the urges, it's because I ask God to help me when I'm tempted, I physically remove myself from the temptation. I don't let my eyes look at porn, I don't let my mind dwell on women's bodies, and I don't watch tv. There are still women who dress inappropiately, but I avert my eyes and pray. Yeah, I fail sometimes averting my eyes or putting my thoughts in check as fast as I should. It's spiritual warefare, and Christ has given us the power to overcome sins that entrap us and hold us down like chains. Yeah, we will still sin, but we shouldn't be slaves to sin. If you HAVE to masturbate, even if it's once a month or once a year or whatever. Brother, your still a SLAVE! Put off your slave mentality! Repent, and reckon sin as sin and therefore unacceptable. Don't you know that Christ has robed you in His Righteousness, and filled you with the Holy Spirit, if you are saved? YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SIN! It's sad that church leaders are not willing to be firm on what masterbation is! Lust is one of Satan's most powerful weapons, and much of the church excuses it, because it is so pervasive. Pray, use the word, and get yourself physically away from the temptation. Leave the house if you are alone or call your accountability partner. I have failed so miserably with overcoming lust in the past until, I decided to deal with it as I have said. Am I perfect? Nope. Not till Christ takes me. But, Lord willing I will not decieve myself, so that I can continue being a slave to sin. By the way, I don't think you can be a slave to sin and try to distract yourself with service and make it go away. You have to deal with your heart. I pray that you will have victory.
Jim
43. Francis said the following at 11:42 AM on Jan 5:
The idea that masturbation is not a sin has to do with what is our heart saying when we want to do this. The likelyhood of thinking non-lustful thoughts before and during this act is very low. In the end are going to make much of Jesus Christ in our lives is the question. Sure, we can say we want to relieve stress and tension but what does that say about ourselves in relation to glorifying Christ. Absolutely nothing!
Struggling with masturbation is not the issue but rather justifying it and making it a practice of it is sin. Galatians. 5:24 says "Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passion and desires."