Biblical Dating: Are You Ready to Date?
by Ted Slater on 02/16/2007 at 2:40 PM
We published the third in Scott Croft's "Biblical Dating" series yesterday, entitled "Are You Ready to Date?"
Some striking quotes from his article:
- "In my view, if you can't happily picture yourself married within a year, you're not in a position to date."
- "[E]asily the biggest complaint that I and others who advocate this approach get from godly Christian women is that men don't initiate."
- "[M]arriage and family are considered a natural stage of progression toward manhood."
- "As it is the man's God-given role to initiate, so it is the woman's God-given role to respond."
- "Humble openness to accountability is essential to a godly relationship."
Scott does read this blog when he gets a chance, so please either leave your comments/questions for him below, or send us an e-mail and we'll pass that along to him.
1. Tom said the following at 7:34 PM on Feb 16:
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I'm sure at least a few guys feel this way, but it's a bit tiring to always be blamed for this. Simply put, guys DO initiate and many times we get shot down.
What girls are really secretly upset at is that the guys they happen to like don't initiate with them. But guess what? You know those guys that did ask you out but you had no interest in them? Well it works both ways...
I bring this up because girls prefer to forget about the guys that did have the courage to initiate but weren't interested in. But they will complain about guys that they ARE interested in that don't initiate. It's not really fair if you think about it.
IMO the single biggest reason for the breakdown in relationships is because both genders expect too much and expect the wrong things from their potential mates, more than anything else.
2. Daniel said the following at 8:49 PM on Feb 16:
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There's a small problem with this advice.
(Non-Christian) Men and Women expect sex in a "relationship" -- with sex likely being the defining aspect of this relationship. All women (including Christians) expect (all) men to expect sex in any such relationship. So when a Christian man directly approaches a Christian woman, (all) women immediately assume dishonourable intentions, and will blow him (well, me) off in any various number of ways. And it's not like you can tell them, "I'm not interested in sex," because then they'll know you were thinking about it and are obviously lying in order to get them into bed.
I've read in one of Boundless' articles that "the modern day mating scheme is by far the most dysfunctional in the history of civilization." I'd say us Christians aren't doing much better right now.
3. Leah said the following at 10:34 PM on Feb 16:
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"In my view, if you can't happily picture yourself married within a year, you're not in a position to date." -> Not true.
"[E]asily the biggest complaint that I and others who advocate this approach get from godly Christian women is that men don't initiate." -> True
"[M]arriage and family are considered a natural stage of progression toward manhood." -> Doesn't surprise me
"As it is the man's God-given role to initiate, so it is the woman's God-given role to respond." -> True
"Humble openness to accountability is essential to a godly relationship." -> Yep.
While there are bits and peices of Scott's articles that I agree with, I think most of it is unnecessary. I've kind of given up paying attention to them because a majority of marriages I have seen (and I'm not talking just about people my age getting married, but about the marriages of my parents' generation) didn't happen the way Scott dictates and they work just fine.
4. Leah said the following at 10:37 PM on Feb 16:
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Tom- there have been many guys I've been interested in, who are obviously interested in me but just not interested in the commitment, are scared, whatever, but haven't initiated. Luckily I found a real man who wasn't afraid of putting himself on a limb, wasn't afraid of risking rejection and wasn't afraid of the commitment.
5. Katie said the following at 11:06 PM on Feb 16:
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I think Tom is right. Personally, I have complained that Christian guys will not initiate. However, the reality is that some Christian guys have initiated, but they have not been guy/s whose interest I wanted.
I realized this a while ago. Basically, my complaint boils down to "I haven't found the right one yet." [i.e. someone with whom I share mutual interest] But, that's the name of the game, as Tom wisely pointed out.
Guys, please keep initiating with girls. I know many of you are.
Other guys seem to be more worried that the girl will assume he wants to marry her once he asks her out. And, too often, we girls do put too high of expectations on guys once they show interest. Post- I Kissed Dating Goodbye, the stakes seem to have gotten higher and the pressure more intense. We all need to just chill. :-) But, that's a different tangent...
6. msasia said the following at 12:34 AM on Feb 17:
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This is my first time in this site.:-) Cool! The article about biblical dating is really good. Men initiate. Women respond. Yes, women SHOULD wait. Ah...it's difficult...for the past 3 years of my life i have been patiently waiting and praying for this "guy" and the sad thing is he never initiates or show anything that he is interested in me. At times it's tiring though and I almost tempted to initiate ( not in an obvious way) and sometimes I want to give up praying for this person. Yeah, it's hard to wait but it is possible. GOD is worth waiting for.
7. Chris Krycho said the following at 10:55 AM on Feb 17:
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It was a good article. And apparently a lot less controversial than the last one!
msasia - Welcome to the party! Keep waiting; it's worth it. At the same time, it may not be worth it to wait for that one guy to ask (I don't know the circumstances, obviously). To be perfectly honest, you really don't want a guy who, despite years of your being interested, clearly isn't interested in you (or if he is, is too afraid to get up and go). You want a guy who wants to be with you and will pursue you even if it's a huge risk for him. Keep waiting for that guy, whoever he may be. God will meet your desires in His perfect timing.
8. Becky F. said the following at 8:44 AM on Feb 19:
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The only potential disagreement I have with the article is that men have to initiate every time. I'm pretty sure my older sister initiated her relationship with her husband, and I most certainly initiated my relationship with my husband. Both my sister and I simply asked our guys if they wanted to hang out with us one day. I'm not sure all the details of their pre-marriage relationship, but I know for my husband and me that he asked for my phone number, that he asked to see me again. Both of our guys asked our parents if they could marry us, and both are good Christian men. My husband actually thanked me for saying something to him because he thought I was nice and that he would have liked to get to know me better, but he didn't think he'd ever be able to get it started without a nudge from me. Now that I think about it, my mom asked my dad to do something with her too, which began their dating relationship.
I personally do not think there is anything wrong with a girl initiating a relationship. And by that I mean that she lets the guy know she is interested in getting to know him. Or that she asks him if he'd like to do something, whether it's in a group or one-on-one situation. After that, she should let the guy do the rest of the initiating. But sometimes guys need a little nudge to let them know a girl has noticed him.
9. Jake said the following at 9:25 AM on Feb 19:
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I'm a bit surprised this article hasn't generated as many comments as the previous "Biblical Dating" ones. After all, the hostility toward men and the assumption of the basic goodness of women have been toned down, but they're still there. Maybe we men are tiring of posting the same objections over and over again, and not even seeing them acknowledged.
A defender of this article might say, look, it's critical of both men and women, it assumes both sexes do some things wrong. And superficially, that's true. Croft does suggest to both men and women that they do some things differently from the way they are now (assumedly) incorrectly doing.
But look at what he is really saying. Young men are afflicted with "Peter Pan syndrome;" we should want to get married and pursue women, but we don't. Our desires are wrong, because we want to enjoy an extended adolescence rather than get married and start a family. Much like the new Christian who finally realizes that he is a sinner at heart, we must realize that our desires are fundamentally wrong and undergo a process of self-denial and self-abnegation in which we learn to supress our wrong desires for the sake of what we now know is good.
But the only advice offered to women is that they, when frustrated by the failure of men to pursue them, refrain from the temptation of initiating themselves. It is assumed that their desires -- which are assumed to be for marriage and family -- are basically good, and that the only problem is that some actions they may be tempted to take may undermine their ability to have these desires realized. So the article continues in the same vein as its predecessors, portraying the dating/courtship process as a struggle of good vs. evil, in which women are good and men are evil, and the problem can only be solved by men realizing their evil state and joining the good side.
This approach continues to offer no advice to those of us men who do want to get married, and are perfectly happy to ask women we are interested in out, but are having no success in finding a wife. Furthermore, I am skeptical that the type of man it seems to be aimed at is as predominant among Christians as Croft and others assume he is, and also that, even if he is, there is any reason to think those men are reading Boundless.
10. Esther said the following at 11:10 AM on Feb 19:
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When I was in college, I had a personal policy that I would give any guy with the courage to ask me out the benefit of the doubt and go on one date with him. And I followed through with it, even to going out with guys that my friends laughed at and mocked. At times, that openness allowed me to get to know someone that I wouldn't have initially ever thought I had anything in common with. None of those relationships worked out long-term, but I value the people I got to know.
Recently however, I've become more cautious about that methodology. It seems that as we get older, a casual date "to get to know you" is more complicated, with more weighing on it. I hesitate to say "yes" to someone that I'm not particularly interested in (though willing to get to know), for fear they will see it as more than it is, and accuse me of misleading them. I think most girls have had experiences of being nice to someone who pursued them, and then had it degenerate into a really uncomfortable situation of mutual misunderstanding. Sometimes I'm ready to call in the matchmaker!
Guys, I see your perspective that often these articles can feel really critical of you. It's tough to be the initiator, the wise and humble leader, the financier and romantic planner. And there are certainly girls who are willing to let you do all the heavy lifting and stand back and laugh if you make a fool of yourself in the process. There are girls who are just out for status, or appearance and will overlook the "nice" guys, in preference to the "edgy", "cool" ones. I find that girls often function in a "pecking-order" mentality and tend to set up a list of guys, ranging from 'to die for', to 'interesting and sweet', to 'ick!'. Just as most guys (from what I've heard), have their own list, from 'amazingly beautiful', to good looking and fun, to "I've got to be polite because she's my Christian sister". It's not pretty, but I think it's true. And if either person doesn't fit into the other's arena of "possible partners", it'll be an uphill battle.
I don't think it's wrong for a girl to try to talk with a guy who might have not picked her out in a crowd as the most attractive, and let him see her other strengths. However, I don't think it's fair for guys to expect that a girl should call him up, plan for activities, get all dressed up, put herself on the line physically, and be left waiting breathlessly for the guy's approval. If you want a girl to appreciate your courage and manliness, it helps to show it. If you want a girl who takes all the work and responsibility on herself, and tells you it's worth it all just to have you around, then all the criticism is correct, and you're really looking to marry your mom.
11. Mark said the following at 12:01 PM on Feb 19:
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I'd like to pick up on a point that Esther mentioned in passing: the casual, get-to-know-you date. Based on viewing dating through an intentional and "Croftian" lens, how does a guy initiate with a girl that he sees only on occasion (and not at church) and with whom he shares no mutual friends?
From what I gather, I'm not supposed to casually date. I have to evaluate the girl based on seeing her at church, IV, or Crusade meetings or through some mentor or other mutual friend. If these situations don't apply, what's the proper approach to take? A lot of what Croft and others have mentioned sounds good, but I'm not sure how it applies outside of Christian fellowship. Someone like Henry Cloud would say that I should just walk up to her, strike up a conversation and "go out with anyone once." What do those at Boundless and anyone reading this blog say?
12. Denise said the following at 1:02 PM on Feb 19:
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I understand Mark's dilemma, even though I am a girl; and actually, I found Cloud's advice to be quite sound and helpful. It seems to be a weakness in Croft's line of thought, and in that of others like him, in that it basically gives no opportunity for you to get to know someone who is not already in your circle of friends, close church group, etc. Recently, I was in a situation with a classmate of mine who I actually saw often, and could chat with, but never really in the type of situation that would lend itself to getting to know one another well. We knew enough to be interested, but not enough to become particularly serious or "intentional" about anything. Becuase of our schedules, if we spent time together, it generally had to be planned. And since we were both interested in one another, it wasn't as if we could pretend that we were going out of our way just to be friends. And so in that case, we were basically dating casually. But we were not in a relationship. We were intentionally spending time with one another in order to get to know one another better, and becuase we enjoyed one another's company. Besides a hug when parting, there were no intimacies shared. I think that too often Croft's line of thought assumes that you cannot be only casually spending time with someone who you are interested in. It assumes that if two people like one another and they go out on "dates," then they are crossing emotional and/or physical boundary lines. And that is simply untrue. You actually can spend time with a romantic interest, as a romantic interest, without being in a "pseudo-marriage." This young man and I did eventually have to discuss our relationship to one another and where it was headed, but it wasn't something that we needed to do on the front end. We didn't know one another well enough yet. And again, to pursue someone in the name of "friendship" when, really, you have romantic interest might just end up being more confusing if the other person can tell that you have more than a platonic interest, and especially if that person returns the interest.
Also, about the complaint that men do actually initiate, but that girls forget about those who they don't like, I'd like to say that that has been quite true in my experience. I might be frustrated with a couple of guys who I wish would make a move, or who, if I know they like me, don't say anything. And in the middle of that frustration, I might be like, "Why won't guys step up?" But I've forgotten about the literally dozens of men who have approached me but who I turned down. I really respect those guys though!
13. BDB said the following at 1:33 PM on Feb 19:
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There's something to the "men should initiate" thing. I wasn't previously aware of this theory, and admittedly enjoyed having women ask me out. But now that I think about it, I was never motivated to pursue anything further in those situations, and at least one person got really irritated. I've tried to be careful about not accepting invitations since then.
At the same time, I know a number of single women in their 30's. It recently occurred ot me that I've known some of these women for 10 years. During that time, they've always been attached -- and not open to initiation by other men. But it never seems to result in marriage. I'm now convinced that these women are initiating the relationships and doing a lot of the work -- planning activities, etc. and the boyfriend is just enjoying the ride. I've seen a few of the boyfriends break up with them after years and get engaged to someone else six months later. My conclusion is that when women initiate, there is a significant risk of attracting a man who is interested in enjoying companionship, but is not motivated to make a commitment to her.
Thats's my $.02.
14. Becky F. said the following at 2:45 PM on Feb 19:
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Well, Mark, I don't think there is anything wrong with a "getting to know you" date. I think what is silly is having a relationship with someone and never discussing the idea of marriage. Why be continuously dating somebody if you haven't talked about whether you're pursuing a dead-end relationship or a covenant relationship?
I think if two people go out on a date or two, more as friends than anything else, so they can figure out if they would like to consider something more serious, there is nothing wrong with that. I don't see how that's any different than going out with any friend. But where we go wrong is when we're serial monogomists and are in many long (or even short) relationships, because those just lead to broken hearts and sexual temptation.
15. Chris Krycho said the following at 3:16 PM on Feb 19:
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I think that's a pretty fair question, and honestly I'm curious what the answer is. I've been in the position before of being somewhat interested in a young woman who I saw at most twice a week, in very crowded settings -- someone with whom I got along well, but simply didn't have good opportunities to hang out in groups outside those perhaps 20 minutes a week because our schedules didn't line up well. Every time I tried to invite her to stuff, she couldn't come, and it became more painfully obvious I was interested, which put a lot of pressure on our friendship. There wasn't really any room for a casual date, thanks to the strong pressure we put on commitment (pressure which, as you all know, I think it is a very good thing overall), and so it ended up with me having to ask for a "relationship," which in turn led to her saying no because she wasn't interested (possibly at least in part because she just didn't know me that well). So what are we to do in these situations? I'm increasingly of the opinion that there is a place for casual dates, as long as the relationship doesn't stay there, and as long as we aren't habitually casually dating to meet our emotional wants.
16. DanL said the following at 4:11 PM on Feb 19:
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Ester, it seems like there are many women who like you, will go out once with almost anyone who asks them. I’m not sure this is such a good idea. There were two ladies who each went on one date with me. In both cases I thought I knew them rather well (over a year) and when then didn’t wish to go out again I was left wondering whether I made such a fool of myself in one evening, that the previous year(s) of experience, where she decided I was worth going out with, where undone in a few hours. It now seems more probable that they knew they weren’t interested in me, but for some reason went out with me anyway. Either way, I don’t get it.
17. Nova said the following at 5:53 PM on Feb 19:
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Hi All. I have frequented boundless website but this is my first time on this website. This comment is for msasia. I have been struggling with similar problem like you do. Though I agree with Chris' comments, it's hard to know the fine line btw God's will or our own will because what if that feeling is birthed by God? I read 2 Elisabeth Elliot's books (Passion & Purity, and Quest for Love) recently. In those 2 books, they described several people experiences that deal with waiting. And how waiting sometimes is a way that God is trying to teach us something -- patience that develop into character and to be like Ruth to trust in the sovereignty and the goodness of God. So I guess bottom line, like in everything else, a lot of prayers need to be done. What else can we say in the end but His will be done and thus His name will be glorified.