Purposeless Dating
by Ted Slater on 01/05/2007 at 9:23 AM
Readers of Boundless are familiar with our Boundless Answers set of columns. Each week we select questions from one of our readers and John Thomas and Candice Watters take turns addressing them.
This coming Monday Candice responds to an e-mail from a woman that contains the following line: "[T]he guy I have been dating for the last four months told me he is not sure if he ever wants to get married."
Stunning. And all-too-common. This has got to stop. This is absolutely unacceptable. It is absolutely shameful.
This young (perhaps) man is defrauding this woman, taking emotional intimacy (and perhaps physical intimacy as well) without any thought for this woman. It's entirely selfish. Among other things, he is prolonging her singleness, perhaps inhibiting another, marriage-minded, man from seeking a relationship with her. If she ends up never getting married, this man bears some of the responsibility for that. And God will hold him to account for his sin.
Why, I wonder, is this man dating this woman if he has no intention of ever marrying her, let alone marrying anyone?
If he feels called to a life without marriage, that's is admirable. Jesus and Paul and John the Baptist are but a few examples of men called to such a high vocation. But if he is truly called to a life of celibate service, why is he dating?
He is either a coward, afraid to take on the commitment and responsibility and fulfillment of marriage and is content stealing intimacy from this woman. Or he is falling far, far short of his calling to live a God-honoring life of celibacy.
Let me ask the male readers of this blog directly: If you are dating someone, why are you doing such? Are you exploring with your girlfriend whether or not it's the Lord's will that you marry? Or are you merely in it to satisfy your desires for emotional and physical intimacy, and in the process delaying her marriage and perhaps denying her a husband?
1. John said the following at 9:41 AM on Jan 5:
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What the guy most likely means is he's not sure if he wants to marry that particular woman.
2. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:55 AM on Jan 5:
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I agree with John. It's a bit harsh to make judgements at calling this guy a "coward" and "defrauding a woman" until you hear his side of the story. Maybe it's true, but maybe as John says it's not and just trying to say that he's not interested in her.
Also another detail left out is what SHE is doing in response to this. Let's assume the allegations are true and he has no intention of marrying (her). If she purposefully stays in this relationship hoping that things will change she is in my opinion just as guilty of "inhibiting" as he is by not making herself available to other guys who are not afraid to commit.
Regarding though "dating without intention" I agree that you should NEVER date someone unless you are consciously aware that this person may be a future marriage partner. That means of course if you are a Believer you should only date Believers.
However, this notion of intention can be taken too far unless both parties involved are at the same level. For example, say HE is dating someone and wants to marry right away (say 6-12 months). SHE is open to marriage but wants to wait until after she graduates from grad school (say 2 years from now). Or perhaps she is open to marriage but wants to "see how the relationship develops" first. Who is in the wrong? I'd say neither as long as this understanding is clear. Should the guy now say "Nuts to you, I'm going to break this off and find a woman who isn't afraid to commit on MY terms"?
Honestly, different people have different meet->marry timetables. For some it's fast. For others it's slow. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to date/court someone with a similar timetable, but I also don't think it's wrong per se to date/court someone who's timetable is longer than someone else's so long as marriage is still the expectation as the end result. Unfortunately, there is no "right" or "wrong" tolerance level (i.e. 6 months or greater difference and you should call it off).
3. RS said the following at 11:05 AM on Jan 5:
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John,
Perhaps, but not necessarily ... I was in a similar situation where I was dating a guy who cared about me a lot, really wanted to keep dating, yet due to past experiences with his parents had some issues with marriage and wasn't sure he could ever say "I do" and remain committed for life. That's where the relationship had to stop, even though it was painful for both of us. He is not the only guy that I have met who struggles with this.
It is easy, in a sense, for me to desire marriage and not fear the commitment of it, because I have loving parents who are very happily married and have set a fantastic example for me and my siblings. However, not everyone has had this experience. I think that using an either/or statement labelling men who aren't yet ready to make a commitment a "coward" is a little harsh. Perhaps he is, but maybe there is more to the story. I agree that it is wrong for men (and women) to steal intimacy from those who they are dating when they know they are not ready for marriage. However, I also think that there needs to be some loving encouragement that avoids labelling for these men to address the issues that lead to fear of marriage and commitment.
4. Paidwell said the following at 11:10 AM on Jan 5:
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Prologing her singleness? He's not doing ANYTHING wrong here. He told her what he was out for, and that he wasn't interested in marriage. It's up to her to stick around the guy. But even still, what fool would try to build something leading to marriage after only 4 months? You barely know the person, so to consider marriage at that stage of the game is slightly premature.
5. Dustin said the following at 11:32 AM on Jan 5:
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Ted I'm not sure if I completely agree with you.
I'm a young Christian male, and I truly hope to find a nice Christian woman to marry and enjoy God's gift of life with. When I date a girl I try to learn about her, who she is, her character, and the qualities about her that tell me she would make a great or not so great wife and mother.
I can only assume women do (or at least should be doing) the same thing. Time and time again on this site (which is great by the way) I read essays espousing the duty of Christian men to pursue Godly women with the intention to marry. How could this young woman date a man, for FOUR MONTHS, and have no idea that he lacked the characteristics to be a good husband? She shares in this situation, and it’s results. Dating and the results therein are not completely dependant upon how the guy acts, I don’t understand how Boundless never seems to be able to address this situation. The depravation of this woman’s ability to date other men lies solely in her hands, she could breakup with this man at any point and pursue Godly men, with marriage potential and desires if she so wishes.
I say all this because I have personally seen it with several girls I am friends with. They know it’s not a good relationship, but they “Love him so much” they couldn’t leave. Some women have this innate desire to mold men into what they yearn for, instead of finding a man with qualities they want (and deserve).
If a man never intends to marry a woman, is not certain of his goals in dating, or is selfish and only is seeking to satiate his own physical or emotional desires, a woman should be able to discover this by date 3 or 4. Which is what, a month tops? Certainly before it becomes a serious, committed relationship issues such as this should be resolved. Even more importantly, before a deep emotional bond has formed preventing a relatively easy splitting of the relationship. We’re instructed to guard our hears above all else, and this is a form of following that proverb.
I agree that this man may in fact be selfish (from what little details you gave) but I think that laying the blame entirely on him is very brash and not evaluating the situation very abjectly.
6. Erin said the following at 11:45 AM on Jan 5:
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John, if that indeed is what he means, then he should not be so cowardly as to conceal his feelings under an anti-marriage veneer. If he doesn't want to marry this woman, then he shouldn't be dating her. If he doesn't want to get married, then he shouldn't be dating her. Seems to me he just shouldn't be dating until he can figure out what purpose dating holds for him. (Granted, he may already see dating's purpose for him as a way to have fun and steal a few kisses without ever having to fully commit to someone. A view that is all too common and all too shameful.)
7. Ken said the following at 12:01 PM on Jan 5:
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I thought the question Ted was asking was "If you are dating someone, why are you doing such?" Come on people, open up and answer the question. I can't because I'm already married, but looking back to our time of dating, I was looking for a woman to marry, but I also see that I had a ton of selfish motives as well, which I am still working out 13 years later.
8. Kristen said the following at 12:11 PM on Jan 5:
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Just a note to Paidwell. Talking about marriage at 4 months is not premature. I have many friends that were engaged before that point, including myself.
My husband and I first talked about marriage after 1 month through God's prompting. We were engaged two weeks later after prayer and speaking with our parents, close friends, and pastor. Just because something is quick, doesn't automatically make it foolish.
9. Jethro said the following at 3:18 PM on Jan 5:
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Very harsh judgment Ted - you have basically conducted a character assassination of some guy you've never met because he's not acting as you perceive a Christian should.
On which note, I think it is cowardly to attack a person who cannot defend themselves. This man has had not opportunity to respond to your attack. That to me is not how a Christian should act. The phrase 'practice what you preach' springs to mind.
In any case, so called 'purposeless dating' is not actually a sin as far as I'm aware - do you have an actual scriptural passage to say that it is?
10. Mark said the following at 3:45 PM on Jan 5:
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I'm with Dustin on this one. If the girl hasn't figured out what the guy is about after the first month or so, why is she still hanging around with him?
Also, one of the problems I've found in dating is that women like the idea of commitment and getting married. Often it seems as if it is programmed into them, particularly if they are raised in a Christian home. Again, this is only my experience here, but when the conversation turns to lifelong commitment they tend to realize the seriousness and gravity of the situation, and they become a little less interested in marriage than when the relationship began.
To delve deeper into another one of Dustin's points: why is the success of the relationship, according to Boundless, always dependent upon the guy's actions? Is it because we're the pursuers? I get the impression that if a guy is over 25 and single(like myself), he's unmotivated, immature and not serious about commitment. Any woman over 25 and single has been defrauded of a husband by said guy and is the innocent victim. Maybe I've become cyncial in my older age, but I'm a subscriber to the Danielle Crittenden school of thought on single women.
11. DanL said the following at 5:23 PM on Jan 5:
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I completely agree that this young man’s actions are shameful, mislead the young lady question, and deserve our condemnation. But, Mr. Slater goes on the say that this “all-too-common.” I would like him to defend this later statement, since he offers no evidence that this common at all. I would remind him that emails a webzine such as Boundless receives do not present an accurate statistical sample. I wish that Boundless would spend more time addressing readers who do try to follow Biblical principles and are trying to seek a spouse, but are nevertheless unsuccessful rather pick on easy targets like this one. I sometimes seems as though they need to have someone to blame, even if that someone represent a minuscule fraction of their readership.
I would also add that, in addition to harming this particular young lady, this man’s action harm to the rest of us men as well. Thanks to him, and men like him, the rest of us will have to live with our motives always being questioned, even when are trying to act purely.
I was also displeased by Mr. Slater’s parenthetical comment, “and perhaps physical intimacy as well.” Perhaps this young lady should have figured out this man’s intentions (or lack there off) sooner, but anyone can be mislead. Physical intimacy, however, is an area that, as they say, takes two to tango. Unless this was something in her letter (I wonder if the post should have waited until Monday, so we could all have read it) to indicate this, I find it discouraging that Mr. Slater would be so quick to assume the worst about her.
12. Kyu said the following at 5:23 PM on Jan 5:
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I think the point Ted is trying to make here is not necessarily about judging this specific man ("character assassination", if you will), but rather, he's addressing the general population at large that is guilty of 'playing the field' without an end goal in mind.
I think all of us readers here can agree to the fact that most men and women in our western society today (including those in the church, unfortunately) live by the date-around-and-see-how-it-goes approach. As another reader has pointed out, the contemporary dating culture has seeped into the confines of the church. And it's unfortunate that Ted's answer to his own question is correct for many of us: "to satisfy [short-term] desires for emotional and physical intimacy."
The sad reality is that guys initiate and girls accommodate (and vice versa), so both end up hurt in the end.
May God give us the strength to swim upstream in a rapidly flowing river of lust, false expectations, and compromised standards.
13. John said the following at 3:10 AM on Jan 6:
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Alright... that's a lot of comments to wade through. I'm going to exhale a bit.
To address Ted's questions in his post, I am not dating anyone right now precisely because of several reasons, enumerated in his questions:
I don't have sufficient resources to marry - I'm a college student - and I'm not prepared to discuss marriage.
I still struggle with sexual and emotional desires, even though I'm trying to remove those sins from my life with God's grace. (If anything, I'd like to see more Boundless articles on how to fight these - I don't think we can honestly say to ourselves we don't need any advice with sexual issues and dating/marriage relationships, never even mind reproof.)
I am also, by God's grace, trying not to be selfish with another's time. If I'm not going to get married, I shouldn't hinder a woman that might be finding someone else great. To wit, if I'm in a journey with her that has a big 'No Outlet' sign at the end, I can't justify it when she misses her exit out to marriage with one of our mutual friends, possibly, or possibly even a guy I don't know. It's not fair to her, to him, or to me - we're just wasting time driving on the dead-end road.
Now that I'm done, I have a few general responses to the comments:
(1) This side of heaven, we will never enter into a perfect relationship, and the responsibility of a sin or oversight rarely rests on one person. So I would say that both the girl and the guy in this relationship have some things to work out.
(2) Is the guy a coward? Purely selfish? I would say that the word 'coward', made simply to mean, "one who lacks courage", would aptly describe him. After all, it does take courage to get married, and I'm sure most married men would back me up. Is he selfish? I would say probably yes to that, for the same reason that Ted's given and that I've basically echoed here. So, my response to that is, so what? No one's free of sin, and no one's free of character flaws either. We don't always condemn or derogate people when we label them negatively - we merely characterize them. For the Christian, sin is an undeniable and unshakable reality of an imperfect existence. I think, by God's grace, we should always be ready to be corrected by other brothers and repent and change before God, even if it really bites to be rebuked.
Now, an aside - I totally thought that Ted's post was about the guy in the previous BA, Secrets in the Basement. I mean, not to pass judgment or be overly harsh or anything, but in all frankness, how many non-committal guys are out there? I do admit that these two guys are probably a BA e-mail inbox coincidence, but the lack of discernment and quick rationalizations in some of these comments bothers me. This adultescence bug is apparently really infectious. I'm glad that Boundless is offering some remedies for it. Keep it up.
14. Sarah said the following at 12:55 PM on Jan 6:
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Amen, Ted! I agree with your blog. Personally, I don't want to date someone unless I think I may be interested in marrying them - otherwise I would feel like I was using and misleading them. I don't want to hurt someone like that.
15. DanL said the following at 1:24 PM on Jan 6:
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John,
Maybe I shouldn’t say this, but I have to seriously wonder if the letter in this week’s Boundless Answers (Secrets in the Basement) is a joke. I remember reading the letter, and just when you thought this guy couldn’t get any worse, then he comes out with “I know Mom does not approve of my GF because she is not saved,” line. The editors here may have a better idea, since I think all the letters get edited pretty heavily before publishing, but count me skeptical.
I will reiterate my desire that Boundless spend more time writing for readers who are tying to be serious and to do go about things Biblically (which I suspect makes up large share of there readership than they seem realize) instead of hitting easy targets. It also makes me wonder if they are desperate for letters to BA and didn’t have much else to choose from. I was working on a letter to Dr. Theophilus before he jumped ship; maybe I should try to submit that to BA instead (although, as it stands know its kind of two questions, so I think I need to pick one or the other for there to be a chance of it being used, and I kind of was trying to cut back on my time online too). Perhaps others here should try to submit better questions as well.
16. Jake said the following at 1:48 PM on Jan 7:
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I can't answer the question directly, since I am not currently dating. However, in both of the relationships I have been in, I was exploring the possibility of marriage. (Unless you count the fact that in the first one, while I was in college, both I and she were so immature and naive about the whole thing that we couldn't even say the "M-word" and danced around the issue. But we both thought we would get married after graduation.) In the second relationship, I was the one peristently bringing up the subject of marriage and recommending that we go forward with it. Both relationships were terminated by the female, against my wishes. And no, in case you were wondering, this isn't a sign that she was immature; she was in fact the spitting image of the on-fire-for-the-Lord Christian girl: raised in a Christian family, had always been interested in overseas missions, went to a Christian college, teaches kids' Sunday school, attends women's bible study and leads one of the small groups, attends a weeknight home prayer/Bible study group, etc. -- seemingly exactly the kind of girl Boundless is always portraying as desperate to get married. This is why I'm kind of sick of seeing men blamed for the delay or declining frequency of marriage by Boundless writers.
I'd also like to echo some of what DanL said. First, Boundless often suggests there is a high degree of premature physical intimacy going on in professing Christian dating couples. I wonder why they think so. If we're talking about hand-holding and kissing, then I'm sure that does happen frequently, but is there any reason to believe that large numbers of sincere believers are having premarital sex? Second, I wonder why physical intimacy is always portrayed as a single-handed action on the part of the man only. I know some Boundless authors have come out against even holding hands, and said that if a man holds a woman's hand and then winds up not marrying here, he's "defrauding" her. Don't you think there's a possibility that the woman might reach for the man's hand? If a couple holds hands and then the woman decides not to marry the man, is she guilty of "defrauding" him? And when it comes to sex, as DanL said, it takes two to tango. Either he is raping her, in which case she should be pressing charges, or she is doing it willingly, in which case she is equally guilty.
Now, some of you, when you read my account of my last girlfriend, may think "it sounds like she just wasn't right for you." I have been told that on message boards where I have posted the story: people have said, in essence, "I'm sorry it didn't work out, I know it's difficult and I feel sorry for you, but have you considered that if she didn't feel strongly enough to marry you, that it just wasn't meant to be?" That's fine for what it is, but imagine the tables being turned -- think of how, say, Debbie Maken or Al Mohler react to such a story in which the sexes are swapped. In that case, the guy needs to stop "test driving his girlfriend," stop depriving her of marriage, grow up and marry her. In other words, when it's the man stalling the relationship, he's being immature and irresponsible and needs to start exhibiting male leadership, grow up and get married. But when it's the woman stalling, that just means it's not the Lord's will for the two to get married, and it's probably for the best that it's not happening. I'd like to know why this is.
17. Sina said the following at 1:50 PM on Jan 8:
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I'm definitely all for the woman taking responsibility in a relationship. I've not been in a dating situation since I've been saved but I have (in my opinion) been defrauded by gentlemen who spent lots of time with me only to tell me later that we were 'just friends.'
By defrauding I mean, making me feel like they are interested in me as more than a friend. I think both men and women know when the platonic friendship line is crossed (or perhaps women are more sensitive regarding that). But at anyrate, when I did find out their true intentions I didn't waste anytime breaking off the 'friendship.' I knew that in order to make myself available to guys who might have been interested, I needed to stop spending so much time with the ones who didn't want to marry me. Unfortunately, the guys (this has happened to me more than twice) made me feel like I was crazy for not being able to spend time with them. I guess guys are better at guarding their hearts or something.
So all that to say that I'm an example of a woman who took action when I found out the guy wasn't interested in more than just 'fun' When something like that happens more than twice I have to step back and say..."hey, what's up with me?" I'm still unmarried but at least my heart doesn't ache from unrequited relationships.
18. Stacey said the following at 5:55 PM on Jan 8:
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When did physical intimacy just refer to sex? I resent the implication that it should and that sex is the only physical action that affects a relationship. I think it bears well to remember that the affects of physical intimacy -- even hand holding, an arm over the shoulders -- are there even if it sex is not part of the equation. Perhaps men and women are different in how that affects but, as a female reader, I know the affects of even "pure" physical touch. For women, at least, there is an emotional connection at that point too.
And yes, men and women are both responsible in that area however, if either party participates in such a form of intimacy knowing that there is nothing behind, that the relationship is not going somewhere, they are being selfish and behaving with little regard for the other.
Now, to the question of whether purposeless dating is an issue which seems to me to be the actual question raised, i believe there is a problem. I can't speak to this specific situation because, as was mentioned in someone's comments, we only have a small portion of the situation however, dating (or courting or whatever you want to call it) is generally a way to get to know someone with the intention of pursuing a deeper relationship and, eventually, marriage. If you don't intend to marry, my idea would be don't date. Whether you're a man not wanting to marry or a female choosing not to marry, don't date. The issue does not seem to be whether they are male or female but whether they are behaving in a manner that respects the other. Whether we intend to marry someone or not, whether it's not now or not ever, we are still called to treat others with respect.
19. Cynt said the following at 6:38 PM on Jan 8:
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This is my first time here, therefore, my first time posting. I know one would think that because I am a woman, I would be on board with the female in this case. However, I've had trouble understanding why the woman in this scenario is not being held responsible or accountable?
I do believe it is possible for a man and a woman to meet and know within a short period of time if they are compatible and progress to a marriage commitment. But, I also believe this is definitely not the norm for most of us.
I also think that people define "dating" differently. I know that if I were "dating" it would from the perspective of a good movie and dinner from time to time. It would be set on the terms of getting to know one another spiritually and intellectually. For me personally, marriage would be the last thing on my mind for a great many months down the road.
My stance, in all fairness, may have more to do with my age and with the fact that before becoming a committed servant of the Lord some 10 years ago, I had been married twice. I know what it is to be single, married and to be single after divorce.
What I did not know before Christ in my life that I know now is that singleness is not a curse. I also know that I am the most fulfilled when I am seeking deeper intimacy with God than at any other time of my life.
I love the Lord and the next man in my life, above all else, must love the Lord even more than he loves me. So, what does that mean or have to do with Ted's question?
I think it all boils down to a matter of expectation. Our perceptions and opinions are formed out of our own expectations, whether they be selfish or not. Having our own agenda's, even when it comes to relationships, will always lead to dissatisfaction and disappointment.
I believe when Jesus is our Focus, it is very difficult to get angry, frustrated, discouraged with another person or even put off by their not agreeing with us.
If the conversation was an open and honest one, why does the guy have to be a coward? Why does his not wanting to get married automatically insinuate that he has some sort of phoebia? I respect the guy more for not lying and or telling her something she may have wanted to hear. What happened to the pat on the back for that (honesty)?
And to the one who stated what is the deal when the woman isn't ready to commit?
I love my sisters in Christ but some of us can be way out in left field and manipulative. Sometimes the manipulation is so subtle...you don't even know you're being manipulated. Yes, we are born-again believers...but we still have issues.
20. Bridget Campbell said the following at 7:08 PM on Jan 8:
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I've been through that recently.
A year ago,I met a guy on line who claimed to be a Christian. We started dating pretty seriously after he asked me too and we went to church together quite regularly when he was in from work. We prayed togethered and talked serious talks, but he would always tell me that he would probably never get married. And that if he did it would be at least seven or ten years from now. I didn't understand how someone could go that long without committing into a relationship if he said he loved me. Eventually I began to see that he really didn't love me and his true colors began to show. Needless to say, I ended up wasting 5 months of my life and now I'm still single.
I just don't understand why I always meet the guys who have no entention of being in a relationship to stay.
21. DanL said the following at 7:17 PM on Jan 8:
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This may be obvious, but I’ll say it anyway. Women do this too. In my last relationship, or what I thought I was my last relationship, the lady she didn’t consider us, or have any desire to be, more than just friends. Fortunately I found this out after a couple of weeks instead of four months. The strange thing was she would still call me up and express an interest in doing things together. I seriously considered being blunt and telling her that I asked her out because I liked her, and that for me to continue to spend time with her like that wasn’t conducive to me “getting over” her.
22. healersdaughter said the following at 7:47 PM on Jan 8:
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I am a female responsible for "stringing a man along" for two years; for the entire time, I put off the Holy Spirit who was calling me to singleness. HOWEVER, I was extremely convinced by the man I was dating that he was "the one," and was even more convinced by family and friends that I was just "scared of commitment" because my father left early in adolescence--the very things you've discussed or implied here. It was not until I studied abroad and had time away from the relationship that I was able to accept the fact that God's true desire for me, and consequently what I desired, was for a period of prolonged singleness and a future without that man.
Why then did I find it so hard to make the choice to stop "stringing him along?"
The fact is that we are composed of both emotions and logic, or heart (the human part of us) and our spirit (where God leads). This man may know very well that he wants to be single, but that in no way implies he finds this girl unattractive or does not desire to know her more and spend time with her. In reality, it will be very hard for him to accept a call to singleness if she is trying to convince him to stay in the relationship.
In other words, we are both responsible for our choices, but sometimes outward pressure can influence a person's decision even when they think they don't want a relationship. Don't be too hard on him, judge him too harshly, assume he's messed up somehow, or assume she herself has already had the courage to "set him free," so to speak. We are godly people with good intentions--but we are also human beings who long for physical love and companionship.
Unless we continually turn to and abide in Him we will hurt each other and find it hard to let go of things we want for what we know is best.
23. Dee said the following at 7:54 PM on Jan 8:
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Cynt - Thanks for mentioning that your age may have a bearing on this issue, and the fact that you have been married twice before becoming a Christian. You don't say whether you have children or not though, and if not, whether this is something you desire(d)?
I appreciate your honesty, but I think you may yet be underrating the impact of your previous life when you say: "What I did not know before Christ in my life that I know now is that singleness is not a curse."
Singleness after divorce is very different from protracted singleness, particularly when a person shares God's desire for godly children.
And of course, God does say that it was a sign of His displeasure with Israel that "their maidens had no wedding songs." (Psalm 78:63)
I am also not sure that anger is always a bad thing. Sometimes it can spur us on to achieve great things for the Lord.
But to reply to the original post, I think the man is at fault here. He is wrong to date if he is not regarding it with purposeful marriage intentions. Of course, it may be that he had only just heard the call to renounce marriage for the sake of the Kingdom, in which case I would expect him to be packing his bags for the mission field very soon!
24. Cynt said the following at 9:33 PM on Jan 8:
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Dee-
I do not want to take this off track from its origin. But to give an answer to an indirect question; yes, I had children (five boys); who are growing in the Lord.
We can experience protracted singleness even after divorce, especially depending on one's age at the time of divorce. I know many people who were divorced and hated being single.
What being single did for me is obviously personal and seasonal. I have received my time as a single, particularly after divorce, as a time of spiritual growth, refreshing, renewal, restoration, and transformation. In short, a blessing from God. I have always been a believer in Jesus Christ. I received Christ as my Savior at the age of 12.
And, for the record I did not initiate divorce. Both of my marriages ended due to infidelity on their part and because they sought one.
But, you're right. I don't know what it is to have never been married. But I do know what it is to have an overwhelming desire to be; to include the times when I actually was.
25. Terri said the following at 11:42 PM on Jan 8:
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Hi,
I'm a first time poster (stumbled across this site tonight and really am enjoying it.)
Excellent topic. Jethro upthread asked if there was some scriptural admonishment against "purposeless dating". I've heard 1 Thes 4: 3-7 used in this way, but I believe the context is implying some inappropriate sexual activity occurring, so take it as you will. I have to say, I really agree with Jake. There does seem to be a huge double standard here related to gender. A guy calling things off after 7 months of dating is a cad who has emotionally robbed the girl. In the same circumstances though, a girl breaking it off often earns sympathy ("how difficult it must be for you!") and respect for making a hard, but wise, decision. Not in overy case, of course, but often enough even in my own life experience that it's noticable. Not sure why this is. I'm a single woman. If you date, you should be prepared to marry. Four months is a long time to aimlessly date. The woman really didn't have a clue as to the man's intentions (or lack thereof) during this span of time? If she did, she is as guilty of wasting time as he is.
I think women in general tend to ascribe more emotional significance to words and gestures than men do. We may read something as meaning more than the man intended. That can cause problems at times, and lead to the woman feeling emotionally "defrauded". Again, your mileage may vary--just throwing that out there.
Terri
26. Dee said the following at 2:23 AM on Jan 9:
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Once again Cynt, I appreciate your openness and honesty.
I trust you understand that my comments are not judgmental in ANY way.
However being unmarried as a twice-divorced, mother of five, offers a very different perspective on "singleness" from protracted, barren spinsterhood.
27. Leah said the following at 5:06 AM on Jan 9:
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Ted, you don't even know the guy's side of the story. How can you say he's selfish or sinful without even knowing his motives or his own thoughts? Maybe he's only just realised "hey, I'm not cut out for this marriage business (yet)". Give the guy some slack and you needn't be so judgmental.
28. Leah said the following at 5:15 AM on Jan 9:
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Paidwell,
I think your comment of "But even still, what fool would try to build something leading to marriage after only 4 months? You barely know the person, so to consider marriage at that stage of the game is slightly premature" is pretty judgmental itself.
I know people who have *known* each other for years, dated for a few months, gotten engaged, then married.
I even know one young woman who met a guy at her cousin's wedding, started dating him a week later, was engaged a month later. (They had a 9 month engagement however). This guy had been her brother's best friend for about 10 years, and although she'd met him a few times didn't really know him at all. While I found the idea of getting engaged after a month very hard to swallow, I wouldn't call her or her husband (both Christians) fools. Both families (all Christians) were supportive- it was no doubt a plus that the families were probably very familiar with each other already (through their sons' friendship). The couple in question, however, had really only known each other a little over one month when they got engaged, and while I'm the first to admit it could be risky, I have total faith that they will remain committed to each other. We needn't condemn people like this as "fools".
29. Chris Krycho said the following at 1:37 PM on Jan 9:
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If anything is frustrating to me in the ongoing discussions/debates/arguments/food fights about marriage, courtship, dating, etc. it is the double standard brought up by Jake and commented on as well by Terri. I've seen precisely that, in a great many situations, both personally and in a general sense. I've no desire to play the victim here; there's been too much of that by both men and women in the past.
However, I think it's important to recognize the sometimes subtle ways that modern and post-modern feminist ideologies have infiltrated even the church. There's often an undercurrent of a suggestion that if there's a conflict, the woman is more holy, more likely to be right, etc. Biblically, this is simply wrong. Men and women are equally fallen, equally depraved, and equally in need of God's restoration and sanctification. At no point should we start to play favorites in either direction. The pendulum has, once again, swung to far, if I may use a rather tired colloquialism.
I appreciate what Al Mohler, Debbie Maken, and those like them, are saying to men. Fewer, however, are the voices (like that of Danielle Crittenden) criticizing women for the part they've played in the situation. We need to be mindful not to disumiss anyone's sinfulness - nor to overstate the blame that any general group has for a problem. That goes for marriage, sexual sin and temptation, and so on. Let us not, in our haste to encourage men to stand up and be men, forget to encourage women to stand up and be women; let us not forget the equal culpability of both men and women for the morass we find ourselves in today. And above all, let us not forget that Christ died for all of us, and His redemptive work is powerful in every one of us.
30. Christine said the following at 2:46 PM on Jan 9:
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In this vein, I've been struggling lately to try NOT to lead someone on. He's about 6 hours away and has expressed interest in me. I don't know him well, but I have enjoyed the little contact that we've had. The problem for me is that I don't live there and won't be in a position to move there any time soon, nor can he move in the near future. I don't want to give him encouragment if I can't follow up on it. At the same time, I'm not totally uninterested, so I have maintained contact. He knows this whole situation, but still I feel like I'm on a tight wire ... precariously trying to not lean to the left or the right.
Any thoughts?
31. Chris Krycho said the following at 5:11 PM on Jan 9:
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Christine -
My suggestion would be to continue praying, and seek the counsel of those who know you well. If you can arrange to spend more time with him, especially with some of those people around, that'd probably be very good. And then, if there's no check on anyone's heart and he pursues, I think you're probably fine to follow his lead. Long distance relationships can be a lot of work -- in fact, they nearly always are -- but they are in no way "wrong." One of my best friends just got engaged to the guy she'd been dating for about a year and three months, nearly all long-distance (she goes to OU; he goes to Texas A&M... not a short trip). It can work. But it needs to be under Godly wisdom of those around you who can make sure you and he are on a healthy track.
You say you're concerned about leading him on; if you're interested in being pursued, however, and he's pursuing, then so long as God is saying, "Yes," you're not leading him on. And, at least for me, I don't feel led on by a girl continuing to get to know each other a little better as friends while not dating -- even if interested in one another -- so long as there is clear, consistent communication about where the relationship is and is not, and what each other's intentions are. That's just my two cents. I'll pray for you to have wisdom!
32. Christine said the following at 9:23 PM on Jan 9:
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Thanks Chris.
33. Mike Theemling said the following at 9:48 PM on Jan 9:
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What Jake, Kyu, Terri and Chris are saying highlights something we are often guilty of.
We listen to our immediate community and constant hear a certain message and point of view. We then think, "Wow, 'EVERYONE' is saying the same thing. It must be universal!" Then we assume that the problem is widespread, try to explain it (assigning blame as appropriate), and then offer up solutions. This false representation of truth is often seen in the news.
And unfortunately, it seems to exist within the church as well with regards to young adult men and women. I won't rehash the finger pointing; you can read them for yourself above and in other articles.
I will say though that as DanL put it eloquently and accurately, "it takes two to Tango". Kyu echoes this saying "the sad reality is that guys initiate and girls accommodate (and vice versa), so both end up hurt in the end."
Both men and women are directly responsible for their actions and the relationships they are involved in. Rarely is just one person solely the cause.
For example, I remember the story of a young woman who was frustrated with her boyfriend because he was only interested in "physical" things. But that's just the advertisement she gave him.
Likewise, there's the story of the guy who would gladly go out with women just for the sake of "having a girlfriend" but has no intention of anything more serious.
Both sexes have the power to make themselves available to others. Both have the power to say 'Yes' to a relationship. Both have the power to say 'No' and walk away from one. Barring the marriage vow, either one has the right to call it off at any time.
Danielle Crittenden's "The Cost of Delaying Marriage" is one of my most favorite and influential articles on the matter of marriage mainly because she has the guts to honestly say how most guys and girls feel, and yet is so un-PC to say it:
- Women want to be cared for and want a family (children)
- Men prefer women who are nubile, pleasant, and sexy (across all cultures, you so often see older men with younger women, very rarely the other way around)
- Both genders want companionship
In this respect, as Candice Watters has written before, women too often give away their biggest trump card of "sexual power" (giving men the benefits of intimacy [physical or emotiona]) and to a lesser extent companionship. If they want to see if a guy is truly committed, "pull a Ruth" and demand some serious commitment.
But guys, WE need to take the lead and not only commit, but also to take the high road and "not string women along". I won't go far as to say "defrauding" but it's not honorable for a guy to KNOWINGLY take advantage of a girl's emotions just to get some physical intimacy (the "if you really loved me you would..." line). Who knows if in this circumstance that's the case, but it might as well be.
Tried to be balanced here, and honest. My apologies in advance if I've stepped on some toes (I know Danielle's article is hard pill to swallow but do believe it to be closer to reality).
34. Dee said the following at 3:07 AM on Jan 10:
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Just a quick point for Mike: Do we "often" see older men with younger women? Surely most women are with someone around their own age, usually just two or three years older than themselves?
When you do see the older man/younger woman thing in our culture, the man usually has a higher perceived "status" than most other men, which compensates for the lack of attractiveness in other areas ie. he is likely to be rich and/or famous! (And in fact this is also the case when you see an older woman with a younger man!)
You really don't see an older "average Joe" with a younger woman that often.
I am not saying that older men are not still attracted to younger women, mind! It's just that they are likely to receive rejection after rejection if they try to pursue them.
I think men sometimes are lulled into a false sense of security by the fact that they don't have a biological clock. They think they don't need to marry in a timely manner because they can still be a father into their 30s, 40s, 50s and beyond. But what I think they often don't take into consideration is that they may have difficulty in attracting a nubile young woman if they themselves are 5, 10 or even 20 years older than her!
I am talking primarily about western culture here. Women may be in a more vulnerable position elsewhere and less able to make choices.
35. Mike Theemling said the following at 9:46 AM on Jan 10:
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Dee,
Worldwide, men marry younger women with men being on average 3.5 years older than the woman. It isn't just a Western phenomenon.
http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/worldmarriage/worldmarriagepatterns2000.pdf
From firsthand evidence:
- My brother-in-law is 7 years older than my sister
- One friend is 7 years older than his wife
- Another is 4 years older than his wife
- My dad is 4 years older than my mom
True, many times couples are close in age (a couple of years). But more often than not, the man is significantly older. Take a poll in your local community and I'll bet you'll find the same thing.
Also, Danielle in her article brings up the point that if you presented a 35 year old man with two women to marry with roughly equal "qualifications" (education, interests, etc), but one was 25 years old and the other 35 years old, 99% of the time he'll choose the 25 year old over the 35 year old.
The problem is men are more stimulated visually which is highly dependent upon age while women are more stimulated by emotional or relational attributes which is not so dependent upon age.
Despite this, men still ARE able to obtain younger women much more successfully as the statistics show. True, you need to have loads of cash to be a 50 year old marrying a 20 year old. But I dare say the 4-7 year difference occurs much more often, even among "average Joe's".
36. John said the following at 9:56 AM on Jan 10:
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Increasingly you see younger men with older women (Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore, for example).
37. Christine said the following at 10:12 AM on Jan 10:
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I'm 25 and, in the last year, I've gone on dates with a 31 year old and a 33 year old. I'm not necessarily looking for someone that much older than me, but I won't rule them out for that reason alone. I probably would have had a stronger opinion on age a few years ago, but now it isn't that big of a deal to me.
38. Dee said the following at 11:04 AM on Jan 10:
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Mike - I was thinking in terms of wider age gaps than you have now indicated.
I do think it is quite humorous that a study was even conducted to ask whether a 35 year old man would prefer a 25 year old woman (other things being equal) over a 35 year old!
Being successful in his pursuit of her, however, is an entirely different matter! ;)
39. Kevin said the following at 11:39 AM on Jan 10:
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I just wanted to add to some of the comments presented not only in the original post, but also the responses that followed. I pose a question to every guy and girl out there who is in the dating world. I believe we spend a significant amount of our time, energy, thoughts, etc. on finding someone and on relationships that if we were completely honest, probably don't honor God.
The finish line is not the marriage altar, as good and right as marriage can be. The finish line is seeing our Lord and Savior face to face, in glory. We so easily forget that. Our primary motivation in life must be to please our Lord and Savior, marriage or not. Hence my question, are we truly content in Christ alone? Marriage, a girlfriend or boyfriend, nothing will fill the void only Christ can. I truly believe that if we seek Him (Matthew 6:33, Psalm 37:4) He will bless us with those things, in His time and on His terms.
40. Dee said the following at 11:50 AM on Jan 10:
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I am curious about something Kevin.
You say that God will bless us with marriage in "His time".
Does this mean you think it is wrong to actively seek a wife?
41. DanL said the following at 5:37 PM on Jan 10:
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I find this whole age difference thing interesting. Women already live longer than men, so if a lady marries a man that is substantially older than here it seems she is most likely going to be spending many years as a widow. But it does seem to rather common in the circles I run in. In the married couple I’m closest too (not counting family) there is a ten year age difference between husband and wife. I guess I’m odd ball. Of three women I’ve dated, all have been older than me: one by only a couple months, but the other two by 5 and 7 years.
I also wonder who much of this has to do with older men have more savings/earning potential. If this is the case, then I’m not sure how much of this is natural aspect of a women looking for someone to support her and raise a family with, and how much of it is greed and worldliness. Interestingly, one of my friends has suggested that I try re-asking one the ladies I once went out with once again now that I’ve graduating and am earning good money instead of living off a graduate student stipend (she never grave a reason when she called things off, but I doubt this was it and I don’t really plan to follow his advice here).
At an event our church put on recently a speaker actually suggested that women not date younger men since that aren’t as interested in marriage. This really upset me. I can understand this maybe being true in aggregate, but I would hope if your were considering going out with a guy that you would have some knowledge of him and you could base decision on that instead of off statistics.
42. Kevin said the following at 8:25 PM on Jan 10:
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Dee, I do not think there is anything wrong with actively seeking a wife or husband. However, it can easily become our main focus in life, to find someone (especially as we get older). As long as you are confident in your faith and your position with the Lord, I would say go for it. However, like many of the articles presented on Boundless, it should be done wisely and a question Andy Stanley asks is "In light of my past experiences, current situations, and future hopes and dreams, is this the wise thing to do?" You can replace the "this" with just about anything, including dating/courting. I hope I answered your question.
43. Christine said the following at 9:13 PM on Jan 10:
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I think that most women don't date younger men because of the cultural stigma. The first guy I "dated" was 18 months younger than me, but I endured quite a bit of teasing over that fact.
However, though I've gone on dates with older men, the most meaningful relationship I've ever had was with a guy who was younger than me. It didn't work, but from him, I did learn a great deal about God, life and relationships.
In my opinion, yes, I would prefer to marry someone a little older than me or who is around my age. But, I would also prefer to marry someone who's taller than me and weighs more than me. Preferences like that are not requirements and I wouldn't turn someone down based on those things.
Just my two cents on the age thing...
44. Katie said the following at 5:42 PM on Jan 11:
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Wow. How'd this suddenly turn around into the age thing?
Firstly, people were asking why the woman isn't held as responsible as the man in the initial post. Well ... she should be. Just in different ways. And yes, it IS very easy for men to lead women on. I'm a sophomore in high school, and I see it happening all the time. As Genesis 3 tells us, God cursed women with constantly wanting attention from men. Just a little smile, a hug, or holding hands can mean the world to us, and the promise of that bit of intimacy can lead us into situations we don't want to be in. (But we don't realize at the time what's happening....)
Now, about the age thing ... I see that all the time. True, I do know some couples where the wife is older than the husband, but usually only by a year or two. Now, I've seen/heard of some couples where the man is significantly older than the woman. Celebrities, of course, but then there's one of my friends whose dad is in his 60s and her mom is in her 30s or 40s. Granted, her dad is from England and fairly rich, and I don't even know what number wife this is...
One of my other friend's dad is 18 years older than her mom. I think he might be rich, too, based on the fact they have a pool, she has her own car (she doesn't even have her license yet), and she's got almost everything (laptop included).
My Dad is two years older than my Mom ... that's the most common age difference I find.
Now, about ages in dating. My rule is two years older or two years younger max. At my age, those two years are pretty important. I understand when you're an adult, a few more years don't make as much of a difference, since you're both mature. But still, the two year rule is pretty good, I think. Maybe I'll think differently later on.
I've had friends who've had 'crushes' on younger boys before. These girls were made fun of all the time, because ... well, most of us are aiming for older boys. Girls mature more quickly than boys, so if we want a guy who's on our maturity level, we generally need to find somebody older than us. But there's a slight problem with that ... there's also the idea that the older the guy, the luckier the girl. As in, one of my friends (she's 15) has dated 26 year old men before. (Her parents don't know, of course.) We, her friends, generally chide her for this, but she doesn't see what's wrong with it. She's bought into the idea that an older guy is better.
As for myself, my current 'boyfriend' is a year younger than me. He's one of the rare ones who really IS on my maturity level. ;) But we're not really going out; it's kind of a long distance thing, where we talk on the phone every now and then. We're just high school kids, WAY too young for commitment of that level.
Speaking of long distance relationships, that was brought up before. My parents had a long distance relationship going for a while ... I don't know if they were engaged during that time or what, but I'm pretty sure they were planning on getting married. They met at North Dakota University, and then later Dad stayed there and Mom went down to Texas for something. They've got some nice love stories of when one of them drove all day and all night to see each other. See, long distance relationships CAN work. :)
So ... 'pointless dating' is, as the name says, pointless ... I agree with Ted on that ... actually, I agree with pretty much all of what he said. And I also have to mention the 'Friendly Fire' article that was on Boundless last week. A LOT of comments here are downright mean and cruel. The Bible says we SHOULD judge our fellow Christian, because judging them helps to tell them what they're doing wrong so they can fix it and grow in Christ. But there's a difference between a Christian rebuke (as in what Ted was doing) and degrading, hateful comments aimed at cutting somebody down and hurting them. Now, ya'll might not realize that's what you're doing, but you should think about it. As our Momma always said, "Think before you speak!" Or type, in this case. Forget idle hands; thoughtless words are the Devil's workshop.
Oh, yeah, and some of you were questioning how often 'purposeless dating' happens and how often Christian couples are 'physically intimate.' Let me tell ya now: Everybody I know (save a couple of engaged couples) is dating for the sake of dating. Sad, but true. I know a few people who want to be dating with marriage in mind, but they're not dating right now because they haven't found 'the one.' But as for the people who are dating? Well ... yeah. One of my friends actually started dating a guy because her previous boyfriend broke up with her and she 'hated being single.' I, myself, am not innocent of this purposeless dating. My boy-friend (friend that's a boy, not boyfriend) and I are not dating, per se, but every now and then I like to say we are, just so I'm not the only person at my lunch table who's single. I know, that's wrong, and I've been praying for God's grace to help me stop that.
Physical intimacy in Christian couples ... now, I don't know how often REAL Christians do this, but I know a lot of people CLAIMING to be Christian who are very busy physically. A couple of my 'Christian' friends (I doubt their salvation) made out for 3 hours. Statistics show that 'Christian' teens have oral sex as often as non-Christians. As for my own 'Christian' friends, they think everything's ok as long as they don't lose their virginity. 'Sex' is a LOT more than just the intercourse, but they don't know that! And statistics also show that Christian college students are just as sexually active as non-Christian colleges. I wish I had some links to these statistics ... look for them on Focus on the Family. I promise they're there. Look for them on Boundless. I promise they're here, too.
Now ... um ... let's see ... what's left to say? Sorry for the long post; if I stepped on your toes, I apologize and can recommend a Band-Aid and ointment for you (the Bible and prayer!), and ... that's all, folks.
45. John said the following at 8:57 AM on Jan 12:
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Katie, even "REAL" Christians are vulnerable -- not just to that sin, but to every temptation that is common to man. The difference is how we respond to our sin. Do we rationalize it and say it is no big deal, or do we come back to the Father in repentance? Someone defined a Christian as being a "repenter at heart." I don't know the spiritual state of your friends, but I pray that they will come to know the Lord and accept the truth of the Scriptual teachings on sex.
PS Which is a greater challenge, maintaining purity in the hormone storm of the teenage years, or running the "abstinence marathon" after 35? Having done both, I'm thinking it only gets more difficult ...
46. Zeph Greenwell said the following at 9:59 AM on Jan 12:
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I haven't read all the comments but I wanted to post a responce to the original question in the article. If a guy is dating a girl with no intention of marriage then he only wants one thing, SEX! Anyone who denies it is an outright liar. As a christian guy or girl dating a relationship must be leading towards marriage. Otherwise, where does it have to go? If after a while the couple decides not to get married thats ok, but without marriage as a goal dating is pointless and will only cause problems.
47. Leah said the following at 8:08 PM on Jan 12:
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Katie, you say that everyone you know (almost) are dating for the sake of dating- yet you're only a sophomore in high school. That's what school kids do. The dating culture of school is different to that of outside in the real world. Of course school kids don't have marriage in mind. (Well, most don't). I'm not saying this makes their purposeless dating right- but I can understand it a little more. It's all a big game for school kids (and unfortunately that carries on to later in life sometimes). Even though I believe purposeless dating is rife, I don't think a school kid saying "well, purposeless dating is everywhere coz my school friends are dating for the sake of dating" says much about the real essence of dating in the outside world. Because I do think that *most* dating has some sort of committment in mind (maybe not marriage, which is still wrong), unlike high school dating.
48. Chris Krycho said the following at 11:28 AM on Jan 13:
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Leah, where I disagree with you is that it really isn't terribly different in HS than "in the real world." People still largely date just for the sake of dating. And most people in HS are dating merely for the sake of having some physical and emotional intimacy and figuring out what they eventually like. How is that any different from the purposeless dating elsewhere? Is purposeless dating not purposeless dating regardless? Isn't it really the exact same issue, at heart? And does the fact that it's in high school and people that age usually can't get married make it any better? I'd say that, to the contrary, it makes it even worse. And as for your last statement - I'd say that might be true in Christian circles, but having spent a fair amount of time around a more worldly crowd this summer, I'd have to disagree. Most people "date" so they have someone to have around, have sex with, etc. Marriage is often for financial convenience, and is little more binding than being dating for a lot of people. Why? Because - often from middle school on - people establish patterns of behavior that do not prepare them for longterm commitment. Instead, they go from relationship to relationship, trying to find a greater degree of intimacy and compatibility. Middle school and high school dating typically involves having a crush, getting together, and then eventually just fighting so much over incompatibilities that you break up, because there's no longterm vision. The same thing remains true after graduating from high school, all the way through the college years, for the vast majority of people. It's all about ME in that worldview, and I think Katie brings up a very valid point in demonstrating that the patterns that are common in 10th grade remain common afterward. It's the same problem, the same underlying cultural issue. Being a sophomore in high school makes people no less in need of a Godly view of dating.
49. Leah said the following at 11:41 PM on Jan 13:
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True, purposeless dating is the same. I think what I meant was that dating is different between high school and the real world. Most people I come across have *some* sort of purpose in mind when dating. (Not necessarily marriage. This is not the case in high school. This could just be the community I'm in or the people I happen to socialise with.
And I never said people in high school were not in need of a Godly view of dating. They're desperately in need of it. Just because I think there's a difference in views between high school and the outside world doesn't mean I think either view is right.