I Regret Kissing My Wife
by Motte Brown on 01/22/2007 at 4:00 PM
A comment from Gina in the "Is Kissing a Sin? Scott Croft Clarifies" thread about her parents' and best friends' regret-less premarital kissing got me thinking about the kisses my wife and I shared before we were married. And unlike her family and friends, I am panged with regret, not romantic affection.
It's hard to put a finger on it. Maybe it's because I kissed her just like I did all the others I had kissed, for mere pleasure, not knowing she would be my wife. Maybe it's the familiarity I had with her on the wedding day, which meant our first kiss as husband and wife was just that, familiar. Maybe it's because that familiarity affected my view of kissing, seeing it only as a means to an end, when it is so much more.
Maybe, most of all, it is because my precious wife looks back with these same regrets too.
When the Boundless team interviewed Scott Croft and Michael Lawrence for the Mentor Series, Michael said that in all his years of premarital counseling, he's never had one couple come back and say that they wished they had been more sexually active during their dating relationship. You can add me to that list.
1. Rusty Shackleford said the following at 5:04 PM on Jan 22:
But the whole point that no one has proven from the Scriptures is that kissing = sexual activity. This is where the argument is coming from. Until someone does solid exegesis to prove that this is the case, many of us will remain skeptical of the conclusion.
Rather, Biblical evidence (like Song of Solomon 1.2 and 8.1) tends to support the position that kissing prior to marriage, even romantic kissing prior to marriage, is an acceptable activity.
While I can appreciate your point Motte, could it be that you are looking back on kissing your wife through lenses of morality shaded by prominent evangelical churches in the Washington, D.C. area (where it is apparent that a whole lot of this kissing=sexual moral standard is coming from)? While not dismissing those fine churches as legitimate arenas where the Holy Spirit is working, if you were in another city or perhaps another country, I doubt that you would be looking back so regretfully. That isn't to say that other places are right and the D.C. churches are wrong, but the fact that such an (forgive me for the adjective, I cannot think of another) extreme stance has been taken in your immediate context by those whom you respect could color your perception of the past.
2. Danielle said the following at 5:25 PM on Jan 22:
Wow; that's a fascinating insight to share, and, I think, an encouraging one. I guess we will have enough regrets to work through because of simple selfish nature, without adding any to the list by rushing into something that can just as easily wait until we are married. Thanks for sharing your personal slant on the matter.
And just a note with regard to Rusty's comment: "Extreme" is not always a negative word. Sometimes we are called to do extreme things in the name of Christ. Dying to self and crucifying the lusts of the flesh are pretty extreme things. They are also good things.
3. Jethro said the following at 6:10 PM on Jan 22:
I agree with Rusty. It seems like the problem isn't your kissing of your wife prior to marriage. The problem is how you're now perceiving that behaviour.
Honestly, how long have you felt this guilt for Motte? Since straight after your wedding or since Boundless started promoting these extreme views?
If I might also perhaps make an observation. Regret is like a rocking chair -- it gives you something to do, but it doesn't get you anywhere.
Why dwell on something that is:
a) well in the past; and
b) a largely trivial matter?
4. Gina Dalfonzo said the following at 6:39 PM on Jan 22:
I would suggest that a little familiarity with one's spouse on the wedding day is not such a terrible thing. (I am NOT referring to actually having sex, which I am completely committed to saving for marriage. But no one here has yet proven that kissing outside marriage is the same thing as sexual sin, anyway.)
Here's an angle that some of you may not have considered. I remember a guest speaker at my church proudly announcing that his son and daughter-in-law had waited until marriage to kiss. He then played a video of the wedding, where he (the father), who was officiating, pronounced them husband and wife and then announced that the couple were about to share their first kiss. Awkwardness and hilarity among the crowd ensued. While some people watching this video were laughing, I was cringing. To me, it seemed far worse to make a spectacle and a laughingstock out of a beautiful and sacred moment than it would have been for them to actually kiss before marrying. I'm not saying that those who don't kiss before marriage are wrong; that's their right if they feel it's best for them. But I personally would rather feel comfortable kissing my husband at the altar. And I still don't think that's sin.
(As it happens, Jethro, I do attend a large D.C. evangelical church, which may or may not be among those thinking of. But I'm happy to say that my church doesn't teach this strict view.)
5. Kewil said the following at 6:58 PM on Jan 22:
Author said: "Michael said that in all his years of premarital counseling, he's never had one couple come back and say that they wished they had been more sexually active during their dating relationship."
But I am sure he had ones that didn't have regrets over kissing as well. Seems like a straw man point to me.
6. Josh T said the following at 7:51 PM on Jan 22:
I think part of the difficulty of this whole discussion is regarding the meanings/connotations of the words "romantic" and "sexual" (and the relationship between the two). Strictly speaking, everything we do as humans is colored by the fact of our genders -- such that in many ways there could always be a "sexual" component to how we relate to one another. I think this muddies the dialogue a bit when the terms can have multiple uses.
Sure, romance is necessarily sexual, definitively speaking, but there is a serious difference in connotation in my mind when I ponder the two terms -- perhaps therein lies the difference. For example, I recall daydreaming in a merely romantic sense (non-sexual) about a certain girl I liked when I was eight-years-old (I don't recall ever *not* liking girls). It was all about infatuation -- focusing on how pretty she was, and perhaps even the fantasy of a brief kiss -- but nothing of what I would consider "arousing" in a sexual sense.
Another example of the difference would be from my teenage years, even before I became a Christian. I recall fantasizing sexually about girls (I was a typical 14 or 15-year-old), BUT if there was ever a girl I had a crush on, I was not able to think of her in the same purely physical (sexual) sense, but I simply daydreamed like I did when I was eight. A close friend of mine admitted similar experiences from his pre-Christian days -- perhaps other guys here can relate.
And when I did kiss my wife for the first time (before we were married, BTW), I did not have any immediate "sexual" feelings, so to speak, not did it "get my engine going". It seemed purely romantic, in that same sense as when I was eight -- not self-gratifying, but focused on the love of the other person. And so that's why I have trouble considering that kind of kiss to be "sexual activity" in the plain sense. And after nearly seven years of marriage, no I do not regret kissing beforehand.
Personally, I always imagined the idea of a first kiss in front of a wedding crowd to be no fun at all. I'm sure others may disagree, but if I had to wait until marriage for my first kiss, I think I'd rather say, "Sorry folks, we're going to wait until nobody's watching."
7. Laura Zimmerman said the following at 8:43 PM on Jan 22:
It seems to me that we tend to rationalize the things that we want ... that is a scary thing! I can come up with lots of reasons that kissing before marriage is not a problem, and I can also come up with even more reasons that it is a problem. But if we are to be "set apart," in our relationship with Christ, why not be "set apart" in all of our relationships.
I don't personally have a problem with simple kissing before marriage, a peck here and there, but I think when we get into a passionate kiss, I want to save all the good stuff for that person who is committed to me, and me to them.
I work with inner city children, and often the students are confused by a purity ring that I wear. They will ask if I'm married, and when I tell them no, they ask why I have a ring. Without getting into the whole sex conversation, my general answer is that I am saving some of the most special parts of me for my husband, and that this ring represents that. How awesome is it to think that my passionate kisses can be a part of that gift...
Besides, anyone can kiss ... but it takes commitment to the commitment to set that aside until a more precious time...
8. Leah said the following at 8:58 PM on Jan 22:
Rusty, I don't think it's fair to assume that Motte has formed his opinion due to pressure or influences around him, rather this is a personal issue that each person has their own opinion on.
Motte, while I appreciate your opinion, I do hold it just as that -- opinion. I think this whole "is kissing before marriage sinful or not" is off track. No-one has given any remote evidence that it is. Mr Croft and other commenters gave proof that sexual activity is sinful, but gave no proof as to whether kissing is always a sexual activity.
If someone such as Motte has regrets about kissing before marriage, I'm very sorry about that. But it really does seem to be a matter of personal conviction and opinion. ("Personal conviction" being important- we must act upon our personal convictions. It would be wrong for someone who believed kissing was wrong to go ahead and do it.)
9. Kristy said the following at 9:07 PM on Jan 22:
Could it be that Motte's guilt stems more from "all the others" he kissed, and not so much his wife? In other words, is the regret the timing of the kisses with his wife (pre- or post-marriage) or the fact that she wasn't the only.
I appreciated what Gina said as well. Quoting a fiction series here is probably not the most scholarly response, but here goes: In the Christy Miller series by Robin Jones Gunn, one of the guys pledges that he will have his first kiss on the altar at his wedding. The wedding takes place much later, in a subsequent series, but it actually included some of this guy's friends holding up signs in the balcony "rating" the couple on their kiss as if it were an Olympic sport -- something that never would've happened if the "first-kiss-on-the-altar" thing hadn't been such a priority. Fiction, yes -- but not so far off from the reality Gina has described.
10. Jessica said the following at 9:18 PM on Jan 22:
I think kissing is very intimate, and sweet, and special. I would really like to wait. I feel that I would be untrusting of a man who could not wait to kiss. Any kind of touch for a woman is incredibly sensual. Even hugging is difficult for a woman sometimes! Just like I don't plan on walking around half-dressed before a guy I'm going to marry, I appreciate it when guys make an effort to be careful with their touch. Where men have a weakness to what they see, women have a similar weakness to being touched. I also think the heart attitude behind the kissing/touching makes a difference.
I knew a couple that waited to kiss on their wedding day and it was sweetest, most beautiful, most 'unawkward' kiss I have ever seen.
I have also a seen a first kiss that was awkward.
The difference between the two was that one man was very self-confident, settled, secure, ready, whereas the other was still growing in those areas.
It's only going to be awkward if you think it's going to be awkward. People should be counseled appropriately in those situations.
But, I'm sure a lot of sex on that first night is pretty awkward too--does that mean that you should practice and be comfortable before you're married to be sure you get it right?
Just my thoughts.
11. Adam said the following at 9:39 PM on Jan 22:
Danielle,
You said:
And just a note with regard to Rusty's comment: "Extreme" is not always a negative word. Sometimes we are called to do extreme things in the name of Christ. Dying to self and crucifying the lusts of the flesh are pretty extreme things. They are also good things.
However, dying to self, and crucifying the lusts of the flesh are biblical concepts. We are trying to argue that not kissing until marriage is not a biblical concept.
Worse than that, I think your comments illustrate something important. Modern Christianity is obsessed with being extreme and couter-cultural. Instead of conforming our lives to the word of God, it seems people always want to look for a standard outside of God's word so that they will look more extreme and against the grain.
I am not saying that I have proven that this is what is going on in this instance. Obviously, that must be argued from the text of the Bible. However, what I am saying is that we have to guard against the things I mentioned above.
God Bless,
Adam
12. JessicaF said the following at 9:58 PM on Jan 22:
Jury's still out on where I actually fall on this topic, but just a thought on Gina's comment:
What a testament of the congregation not to respect and encourage the newly married couple, no matter what they personally thought and felt (shock and disbelief, even) of the fact that the couple had never kissed. I am saddened that a couple would face laughter at them in the first moment after they are declared husband and wife. How edifying and encouraging.
13. Nelson said the following at 11:44 PM on Jan 22:
Adam:We are trying to argue that not kissing until marriage is not a biblical concept.
We have to admit that this is a VERY hard issue, because if we were to stick with OT times, our current rituals that lead up to marriage are significantly different.
I just want to present a small dichotomy that I think of when deciding on this issue.
Will God ever rebuke me for kissing someone? I can imagine multitues of scenarios (pre or post marriage, with someone that is or is not my wife).
Will God ever rebuke me for not kissing someone? Probably, but in only one situation; in accordance to 1 Cor 7:4.
I'm not sure about you, but when I look at these two scenarios, I'll pick #2 since, as this blog clearly proves, it's a pretty muddy field and really, I don't gain nearly as much as I can lose.
14. Marie said the following at 12:52 AM on Jan 23:
Jessica, you said:
"I have...seen a first kiss that was awkward...
[But] It's only going to be awkward if you think it's going to be awkward...
But, I'm sure a lot of sex on that first night is pretty awkward too --does that mean that you should practice and be comfortable before you're married to be sure you get it right?"
Yes, it may be awkward if you share your first kiss at the altar. Yes it may be awkward when/if you have sex for the first time on your wedding night. BUT the difference between the two is HUGE! Premarital sex is CLEARLY sinful. It is a sin against yourself as well as your partner. While kissing on the other hand MAY be unwise it cannot be biblically proven or even suggested to be actual Sin.
Furthermore, I have not seen one clear, level-headed, direct reason/explanation as to why premarital kissing is wrong or sinful. While kissing may or may not be used for self-gratification there are no valid grounds to found this belief upon. Honestly, almost anything based on that logic can be termed as sin.
One other thing that has troubled me is that we, even in the Christian community, seem to be so over-sexualized. It's like nearly everything we say & do seems to have some sort of sexual connotation. A kiss can be so much more than a means to an end(that end being sex), a kiss can be tender & pure.
I can say from personal experience that there is most definitely a difference between a sexual kiss & a romantic kiss. I shared sexual kisses back in my b.c. days w/ my "friend w/ benefits," which were the expression/result of my already lustful heart. But earlier today I shared a tender, simple, & sweet kiss w/ my boyfriend when he kissed me goodbye.
I'm just wondering if the problem is that kissing is a sexual act or if the problem is that we have our heads in the gutter & need to quit perverting something that is sweet & tender into something that is cheap & sinful.
15. margie said the following at 3:31 AM on Jan 23:
Is it possible that because a kiss at the altar is public, it is therefore not sexual? If it were sexual, generations of people would have screamed that this public display of affection was inappropriate. In my mind, the stuff of a honeymoon is "naked and unashamed" and completely private. Is there a distinction here?
16. Chris Krycho said the following at 7:33 AM on Jan 23:
At the same time, Nelson, that's very much just an argument from fear, which is not the best way of approaching an area in which we have limited information. I understand what you're saying, and there's an element of what at least appears to be wisdom in it, but as has been pointed out before, that sort of wisdom is all too often related to a sort of cultural false piousness and is not supported by the texts.
One place we also need to distinguish is in cultural traditions. While Jewish weddings of that period are cool -- another guy and I last year joked that we'd both like to have Jewish weddings ourselves when our pastor had described them -- there is nothing more or less Godly about the way their weddings are conducted; nor was their way of arranging marriage inherently better, per se, than a modern courtship submitted to God's will and input and guidance from those in the community. Unless you'd care to argue that we should return to a system in which nearly all weddings were arranged?
Again, I just point people in the direction of Song of Solomon, which has a lot to say both about guarding each other's hearts and about pre-marital romance, the man's wooing of the woman's heart, their expressions of affection for each other -- verbally and, yes, physically -- before their marriage, as well as after. It's interesting to me that the book tends to get largely ignored (save perhaps for the token quoting of "Do not awaken love until it desires") despite the fact that it has a great deal to tell us about this issue.
17. Adam said the following at 8:32 AM on Jan 23:
Nelson,
You said:
Will God ever rebuke me for kissing someone? I can imagine multitues of scenarios (pre or post marriage, with someone that is or is not my wife).
Will God ever rebuke me for not kissing someone? Probably, but in only one situation; in accordance to 1 Cor 7:4.
I'm not sure about you, but when I look at these two scenarios, I'll pick #2 since, as this blog clearly proves, it's a pretty muddy field and really, I don't gain nearly as much as I can lose.
Using a parody of this argument we can say:
Will God ever rebuke me for doing something in a non-vegitative state? I can imagine multitues of scenarios.
However, God will never rebuke me for doing anything in a vegetative state? I can't think of a one.
I'm not sure about you, but when I look at these two scenarios, I'll pick #2 since, as reason clearly proves, it's a pretty muddy field and really, I don't gain nearly as much as I can lose.
In other words, I can use your own argument to prove that every human being should be in a vegetative state simply because, in that state, there is no potential for sin. There is more to loose by living life itself. However, and this is where the rubber meets the road, we have to ask whether we desire to be obedient to Christ, and his commandments, or whether we are to be obedient to our own desires. The issue is not "in what situation is the least possible sin likely." Rather, it is, "Is my heart's desire to follow Christ in everything I do, including my life and my kissing?"
18. Kewil said the following at 8:33 AM on Jan 23:
Nelson said: "Will God ever rebuke me for kissing someone? I can imagine multitues of scenarios (pre or post marriage, with someone that is or is not my wife)."
Where in scripture does God rebuke someone for kissing someone? I do not see one scenario (let alone multitudes.)
Nelson also said: "I'm not sure about you, but when I look at these two scenarios, I'll pick #2 since, as this blog clearly proves, it's a pretty muddy field and really, I don't gain nearly as much as I can lose."
That is fine. If you can't kiss a woman with out lustful thoughts, that is obviously a right decision, just like some believers can have a glass of wine with dinner, though others can't without the temptation of getting drunk.
19. Zeph Greenwell said the following at 9:35 AM on Jan 23:
The bible is very clear on how we should approach dating. It tells us that we should have "not even a hint of sexual immorality among you" (Ephesians 5:3). Now the question is, "Is kissing before marriage sexual immorality?" Jesus isn't around in person to ask the question to but I want to point out a different situation and, although it deals with money, I think it is very applicable to dating.
In Luke 12:13-21, Jesus is demanded by a person in the crowd where he is speaking to, "Tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me". Now, we don't know the situation this man is in, but it is entirely possible that his brother was unjustly keeping all the money for himself. Jesus’ response is very interesting. "Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?" Jesus asks. Then he warns the man about greed and tells a story about where a greedy attitude leads.
Jesus saw this man's heart and even though he was asking for a clear cut answer Jesus didn't give it to him. Instead, Jesus instructed this man on how he should live. We, as Christians, are no longer under the law and we aren't restricted to a simple list of right and wrong. Instead we should be motivated by a heart seeking to please God with our actions, both with money and with dating. We're asking God if kissing is ok, but God is asking us to check our hearts. Are we really seeking to please God?
Can you kiss before marriage? The biblical answer is yes. Should you kiss before you married? Before you answer that you really need to examine your motives. Why do you want to kiss this person? If you are trying to go as far as you can without actually sinning you most certainly already are sinning. Remember, the bible tells us to have "not even a hint of sexual immorality" and, as a warning, the only way to tell how close you have to go to the fire to get burned is to continue going closer until the inevitable burn happens.
Thankfully the bible doesn't require us to live by a list of right and wrongs. We are simply commanded to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" and to "Love your neighbor as yourself". As long as you're seeking to follow these two commandments then your dating life will be acceptable before God.
20. Nelson said the following at 10:10 AM on Jan 23:
However, God will never rebuke me for doing anything in a vegetative state? I can't think of a one.
But I can think of why God will rebuke you for putting yourself or others in a vegetative state, or for getting rid of people in a vegetative state. God designed us to not be vegetative (Responsibility of Man). God also designed us to be sexual/romantic, but in the context of a marriage. Dating is not marriage. A "relationship" is not explicitly marriage. Don't muddle that line.
"Is my heart's desire to follow Christ in everything I do, including my life and my kissing?"
And how exactly do we determine what is "follow Christ in everything I do"? Is the determining factor whether "some believers can have a glass of wine with dinner, though others can't without the temptation of getting drunk"? Is our conscience the final say?
You're right that there is more to be desired of the current exegesis of how kissing is sinful, then let's bring more in as a support for that.
People are quoting some form of the greatest commandment "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength." (Dt 6:5 + others in OT, expanded in Mt 22:37, + others in NT). Why did Jesus himself say "Love your neighbor as yourself" to the expansion of that first commandment? Because that's how you love God! By placing others first.
When I mention others, I'm not talking about the person you're kissing. I'm talking about everyone else that's not you. If you're not inclined to sin, sure, but are you making sure everyone else doesn't follow suit and sin (causing others to stumble, not because they find it "offensive", but they see it as something to emulate and hence sin due to their own lack of knowledge)? This blog is an obvious proof of how confusing the subject already is. How does telling people "kissing is not sin" help them even think through the subject? There is more on the line than just "am I sinning or not".
The body of Christ should not cause the individual parts to look only at themselves but the whole. Sure, I don't necessarily have to be sinning for every kiss (or any for that matter), but that's hardly where it ends.
Consider what Jesus had a right to. Creator and God. He had no reason to do anything he did, hence why we stand in awe of his death and resurrection. In the end, it comes down to Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son." An act of the will, done for the sake of mankind/others. (I'm aware of the part about his Glory, but that's a different context and not necessarily exclusive to this.)
Just re-read all the posts, look at all the different views. Are you simply satisfied with the question "Is kissing a sin?" I want to see our thinking to incorporate questions that are directly along the Will of God, and to see effects of this subject be more than "simply" sin or not sin, but how can we use this to build, to train other up in gaining wisdom in understanding God's word.
Of all that I understand about the Will of God, I know, for a fact, that God wants us to know and obey His will more than anything else, because that's exactly what Jesus enabled us to do by his death and resurrection.
21. Rebekah said the following at 10:31 AM on Jan 23:
I agree with the comment that the heart is what matters. For me, I know the line, and I know when I am walking on it, or avoiding it. It's not a question of familiarity (to me, familiarity is welcome and comforting). Staying pure is a constant battle mentally and physically. We have 2 months to our wedding, and the strength to stay away from the line comes from God and him alone.
22. John said the following at 10:41 AM on Jan 23:
This discussion is making me dizzy! 4,000 posts on kissing, and we still haven't resolved anything.
How about we all spend more time memorizing Scripture, or working on behalf of th3e persecuted church abroad, or playing basketball, or learning needlepoint? Or maybe the mythical adultescents decried by Dr. Albert Mohler and Debbie Maken have the right idea -- play video games (just not the occult ones) for hours. I know some guys who have gone decades without kissing anybody.
23. Becky F. said the following at 11:01 AM on Jan 23:
These last few comments (Zeph and Nelson specifically) I think are hitting at the heart of the issue, or at least very close to it. I think it is best to look at kissing someone other than your spouse in light of Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 6 & 10.
Paul says (ESV) "'all things are lawful' but not all things are helpful." Or the NIV version, "'everthing is permissible', but not everything is beneficial." In chapter 6 Paul goes on to talk about sexual immorality being a sin against yourself. In chapter 10 he goes on to talk about being able to do things without guilty conscience, namely eating meat without worrying if it had been sacrificed to idols. However, near the end of chapter 10 he says that you should not do something if you think it may be a stumbling block to another, so that they do not judge you.
How does this apply? Well, it applies to anything that may make people think we are not followers of Christ. We do not want to do anything that will make others think less of Christ, or of us, since we profess belief in him. If this means a pastor does not drink alcohol outside of the privacy of his home, since some of his parishioners may not think drinking is ok; or that a person does not see R-rated movies in a theater (or at all) so that people will not think they believe sex (in the wrong context, ie. pornography), violence, and foul language are ok; or whether an unmarried person does not kiss in front of people, or spend time with a date in dark cars or behind closed doors, so that people will not think that they are committing sexual immorality.
The Bible doesn't explicitly/specifically talk about a lot of subjects that are big issues today, because they are modern issues (such as dating or abortion). I think, though, if we look at controversial issues in light of how people will perceive us, and what they will think of God and Jesus because of our witness and lifestyle, we will try to behave in such a way that we will be above reproach. Living that way is glorifying to God, and is walking in his will.
24. Chris Krycho said the following at 12:12 PM on Jan 23:
Nelson: God also designed us to be sexual/romantic, but in the context of a marriage. Dating is not marriage. A "relationship" is not explicitly marriage. Don't muddle that line.
And, if we're to learn anything from Song of Solomon, we are to be romantic before marriage, as well, as part of the wooing process. Again, I challenge you to find any Scripture to support the notion that pre-marital romance is in some way bad or wrong. It's simply not to be found. The only Biblical examples of pre-marital relationships that led to marriage nearly all include some sort of wooing on the part of one or both of those involved, so far as I can recall.
When I mention others, I'm not talking about the person you're kissing. I'm talking about everyone else that's not you. If you're not inclined to sin, sure, but are you making sure everyone else doesn't follow suit and sin (causing others to stumble, not because they find it "offensive", but they see it as something to emulate and hence sin due to their own lack of knowledge)? This blog is an obvious proof of how confusing the subject already is. How does telling people "kissing is not sin" help them even think through the subject? There is more on the line than just "am I sinning or not".
Again, though, there's a problem with this. Based on your argument, if someone is still operating under the conviction that the OT regulations about clean and unclean foods, I might cause them to stumble by eating certain kinds of meats in front of them. Paul's instruction, though, is not to not eat meat, but to be sensitive to those people. Don't eat meat around them. Don't do things that would cause each other to stumble. That is not, however, an excuse for legalism; nor does it diminish the liberty we have in Christ. Furthermore, while I have a responsibility to be a help to others and to guard their hearts insofar as I can, I am still not responsible for their sin of I unknowingly do something that they struggle with. We are responsible for our own sin, and no outside temptation changes that. Yes, as brethren in Christ we are called to serve each other by helping in areas that we each struggle with, but that does not mean that we are to from that derive the notion that, for example, I ought never eat meat around anyone I don't know for fear they might be a vegetarian and caused to stumble by it. Consideration and love for each other -- not fear -- ought to be that which drives us in our interactions one with another.
Just re-read all the posts, look at all the different views. Are you simply satisfied with the question "Is kissing a sin?" I want to see our thinking to incorporate questions that are directly along the Will of God, and to see effects of this subject be more than "simply" sin or not sin, but how can we use this to build, to train other up in gaining wisdom in understanding God's word.
Of all that I understand about the Will of God, I know, for a fact, that God wants us to know and obey His will more than anything else, because that's exactly what Jesus enabled us to do by his death and resurrection.
The problem, though, is that this whole discussion is in response to the very direct claim that pre-marital romantic kissing is sinful. That, then, is the issue to be addressed by this discussion; and it's hardly surprising that people are more concerned with addressing the Biblical validity or lack thereof of that assertion than they are with questions about God's overarching will for our lives. Certainly His will is important in areas like this - but that is, again, a place where the guidance of the Spirit through meditation on Scripture and careful prayer leads to conviction as to what one ought to do... though generally not to grand sweeping pronouncements about what everyone everywhere ought to do. God's will for my life is, at least in many specific details, not the same as His specific will for your life. His glory is of course the ultimate purpose of both, but the details of what that look like will vary drastically between you and I.
All: The constant reference to the very poor translation of Ephesians 5:3 in the NIV is frustrating, at this point, especially since it's been so thoroughly commented on. ESV translates the verse -- as do all other word-for-word translations, as commanding us not to even speak of immorality; and clearly the context supports that Paul is here talking about our speech, not at all akin to what the NIV translates the passage as. I'm aware that interpretation has been very much popularized. It's also inaccurate, and thus not terribly useful.
25. Scott said the following at 12:24 PM on Jan 23:
These articles, and subsequent discussions, have been great in generating thought on this topic. Like some have said and I agree with at this point in time, "I'm not sure where I stand on this subject." My heart tends to go towards waiting to the altar for the 1st kiss. However, I'm glad that Scott Croft pointed out that godly men and women will disagree on this subject.
But I do think this is a issue, discussing putting a stumbling block in front of another believer's faith. However, this is an issue that shouldn't be dismissed on a whim. It is my hope and plan in any future relationship to sit down and discuss this issue. If my potential spouse has a problem with this and wants to wait to the altar, then I will respect her conviction. If I don't and lead her to do otherwise, I run the risk of causing her to stumble in doubt and very likely sin ().
I'm also thankful for Motte's openness to share some of his regrets on this subject. Why? Because in setting a goal to wait to kiss at the altar, I'm taking a leap of faith in my future pursuit of a wife that it would be the most God-glorifying and Christ-loving towards my future wife.
Actually, I'd love to see more discussion and articles along the lines of "why?" Por ejemplo, "Why did you wait/not wait to the wedding day?" or "What are your reasons for kissing during the dating/courting?" I ask these as legitimate questions because I do believe listening to those who have taken the marriage route before can be invaluable advice.
Man I've got to cut down my post lengths. :)
26. Becky F. said the following at 2:55 PM on Jan 23:
Scott, you asked: "Why did you wait/not wait to the wedding day?" or "What are your reasons for kissing during the dating/courting?"
I would say that I kissed the guys that I dated because I wanted to, I was attracted to them in some way, and because it was fun and it felt good. I wish I hadn't because I see now that they were selfish reasons to be kissing someone I was not committed to for life. I don't like to think of the fact that my husband kissed, etc. other girls, so I'm sure he doesn't like the fact that I kissed, etc. other guys.
I realize that not everyone feels the same way about their past relationships, and what they did in them, as I do. I learned things from them, but they really just seem like a waste of time now that I'm married.
Now, I do not regret all the kisses I shared with my husband before we got married. The ones we shared to say goodbye, and the like, were out of love for each other, and did not lead to sexual temptation, but the wrong ones that led us to falter were more prominent than the others, so refraining from kissing at all, or keeping strict boundaries is so important.
27. Emma said the following at 3:31 PM on Jan 23:
I agree with John: at a certain point, other subjects should get our attention.
What about the 3000+ American unborn babies killed A DAY, to say nothing of those killed by abortifacients like the Pill? What about those Christians living under the rule of terrorists?
Why doesn't the plight of these people occupy us all for days and days and days? Just compare the number of posts commenting on the origins of Sanctity of Life Sunday to all the ones on kissing in the past week -- this, during the time that the U.S. remembers Roe v. Wade the most.
Perhaps it's easier for us all to keep talking about this instead of doing something concrete to help the unborn or Christians living under the sword. But we must at least try.
28. Chris Krycho said the following at 6:41 PM on Jan 23:
Emma - while I agree with you and John that there are other, more important topics, I think that posts like that might attract less comment for the simple reason that -- among theologically conservative Christians, at least -- those issues are significantly less controversial. This one is one that is up for a lot of debate. Abortion is not, at least not among those Christians who take the Bible seriously. I suspect, too, that we'd see more discussion if someone showed up and strongly disagreed with the notion that abortion is wrong on that thread.
As well, these articles (and thus, by dint of association, the corresponding blog posts) have sort of been at the front of Boundless' lineup of late, and as such have garnered a great deal of attention.
29. Jan said the following at 7:57 PM on Jan 23:
We waited to kiss until we were engaged because 1) we felt like kissing was a gateway to other physical activity and didn't want that to cloud our relationship, 2) we wanted to signify this relationship was different/special, 3) we felt like physical intimacy properly progresses with emotional intimacy and relationship commitment. Btw, we also waited to say I love you until we were engaged.
30. Sarah said the following at 1:13 PM on Jan 24:
Motte, I appreciated your blog.
Nelson, I think it's nice you want to error on the side of caution. You made a nice point.
Joshua Harris addresses this issue well in one of his books, either "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" or "The Beauty of Courtship." It's been a while since I've read them, but I think he provides helpful insight on why you may want to save kissing for marriage.
Since you're only going to marry one person and will only be kissing that person in a romantic way, it's probably a good parctice not to get used to kissing lots of different people.
31. Jay said the following at 4:29 PM on Jan 24:
I think the real issue here is Boundless's desire to hoist legalistic claptrap on folks. Its simply not enough to redefine sex to include kissing. You could as easily widen that circle to include hugging, holding hands, or even looking at a person.
I certainly support those who have individually decided to honor God in this manner -- but its a personal vow, not a biblical one.
32. Motte said the following at 4:53 PM on Jan 24:
Hey Jay,
You think my blog on premarital kissing was bad, you should check out the one I wrote about holding hands. ;-)
http://www.boundlessline.org/2006/10/the_meaning_of_.html
33. Jay said the following at 5:17 PM on Jan 24:
LOL! I humbly bow to the sheer number of blogs on the subject!
And let it never be said I won't defend an "extreme" vow! After all:
"All the exaggerations are right, if they exaggerate the right thing." - G. K. Chesterton
...but I still say its personal, not biblical!
34. Leah said the following at 7:14 PM on Jan 24:
Jessica, there is a difference between a first kiss at the altar and having sex for the first time on the wedding night -- one is before (possibly) hundreds of people -- the other one is in privacy.
35. Julie said the following at 12:32 PM on Feb 1:
Rusty,
I'd like to bring an interesting fact to the table. As a Sociology major in college, I was floored when we began talking about sexual activity & kissing was listed as the most socially acceptable public sexual activity! May I point out that while the Bible is our guide for life, it is not our encyclopedia or dictionary listing every possible thing under the sun to explain them to us.
If this non-Christian & scientific view of kissing as sexual activity doesn't get you at least thinking ... Think about your personal experience kissing & if you are honest with yourself, you will find that your body's natural reaction to kissing is sexual.
36. Beau said the following at 1:57 PM on Nov 19:
It's interesting what some of you are saying about kissing = sexual sin, or not.
I got a unique perspective on this from (of all places) Hollywood. In "Pulp Fiction" (which I do NOT recommend and didn't even finish), two hitmen are having a conversation on foot rubs. One says that it's innocent and harmless. The other is saying that it's at least in the same arena as sexual intercourse.
He asks two interesting questions: "Would you give a foot rub to a man?" "Would you give a foot rub to your mother?"
His point being that while it seems harmless, it IS in the same realm as sexual intimacy. The same goes for kissing.
What if you end up not getting married? You've just kissed another man's future wife. (Or another woman's future husband).
You couldn't justify kissing another woman if you were married. Why should we justify it because we're both single (for now)?
I won't say that kissing is a sin. But it is worth considering that it's on the same spectrum.
P.S. I'm not from D.C. or a D.C. area church. ;P