Is Kissing Sinful? Scott Croft Clarifies

Is Kissing Sinful? Scott Croft Clarifies
by Motte Brown on 01/20/2007 at 10:37 AM

This is a hot topic, our blog post "Is Kissing Sinful?" having received almost 60 comments in just a couple of days. I thought it'd be a good idea, then, to begin a new thread with Scott Croft's addressing some of the themes he found in readers' reactions to his article, "Biblical Dating: To Kiss or Not to Kiss."

Hi, All -

To everyone who has commented so far, thanks for your comments. I'm really grateful that believers in the Lord can sharpen one another through a thoughtful dialogue about a difficult topic. I've been edified by reading the posts.

Let me briefly respond to a couple of common themes.

First, to reiterate, I'm not meaning to address all types of kissing in the article. As I wrote, I mean to address kissing (and other physical activity) that is romantically oriented and that takes place in a romantic context, and that's it. No relatives, no (appropriate) greetings, no kisses to signify to the bad guys which one the Messiah is (though I must say, for my money, that latter one was a sin for any number of reasons).

Second, a lot of posts seem to be addressing, in one form or another, the "wisdom" argument I made near the end of the article (several posts mention that this is an area to be governed by conscience or guidance from the Spirit, or wisdom, or some equivalent phrase). As you might be able to tell from the article, I kind of meant that to be a "back-up" argument.

Our consciences certainly can be helpful to us, but as Christians, we must make sure that we inform our consciences by -- and submit them to -- the clear teachings of scripture. Scripture also tells us that true "wisdom" is found *in scripture*. "Guidance from the Holy Spirit" is not fundamentally a subjective, mystical experience whereby I do "that which I have a peace about" from moment to moment. The clearest and fullest guidance we get from the Spirit is when He opens the scriptures to us.

My main argument is not "don't kiss because it might lead you to sin." My main argument is that romantically oriented kissing is sexual activity, such that when done outside of marriage, it is itself sin.

In my view, scripture presents a strong and clear enough argument against all sexual activity outside of marriage -- and clearly presents relationships to other believers as asexual "familial" relationships -- that arguing for the liberty to be physically involved requires more than a general statement about conscience, guidance, and wisdom. We must bring the discussion back to scripture and make the argument from there.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a HUGE fan of Christian liberty -- I'm just convinced scripture doesn't offer it to us in this area.

If that's truly my unwavering perspective on what scripture teaches, then why, as a few posts asked, do I say that this is a topic on which "reasonable Christians can disagree"?

Simple. I want to be careful to acknowledge that whether premarital kissing is a sin or not is not a salvation issue. Two people who believe totally opposite things on that question can still believe the exact same gospel and can still be in heaven together one day. Both can enjoy the same grace and salvation of Jesus Christ. One of them's just wrong about kissing :)

The same is true about the other topics we'll discuss here. They're arguments within the household of faith. Not to acknowledge that -- to imply that one can't be Christian if one doesn't agree on this or that secondary issue about how to best live the Christian life -- that's the true definition of legalism.

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Comments

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1. Anne said the following at 12:50 PM on Jan 20:

An African King once said

"Our thoughts lead to our words, our words to our actions, our actions to our habits and our habits to our character"

If one's habits (and through that character) cannot allow one to even temporarly abstain from extramarital ROMANTIC kissing, I submit that one would be wise to evaluate *with the help of someone older and wiser and Christian* the location of ones heart.

(ROMANTIC KISSING DEFINDED AS: kissing between two mutually attracted individuals intentionally exploring the possiblity of a future marrige, AND ALSO kissing that would not otherwise take place if one were not in courting/dating relationship.)

Red flags would be going up in my mind if one was incapable of even temporarly abstaining from ROMANTIC KISSING in order to genuinly seek after God's will in the matter. It shows a lack of self control and spiritual maturity and sets some bad precidents for extramarital sexual temptations that WILL occure after one is married.

2. Dave said the following at 1:52 PM on Jan 20:

Scott Croft wrote:
"My main argument is that romantically oriented kissing is sexual activity, such that when done outside of marriage, it is itself sin."

The relationship between kissing and sexual sin is obviously the core of the argument, and I think it is a weak argument. When we refer to 'sexual immorality' in the Bible we are referring to the Greek word porneia. It's translated as sexual immorality in the NIV, but in many other translations a more narrow word is used, namely 'fornication'. I have never seen any argument that would relate porneia to kissing, and it strikes me as rather a unwarranted expansion of the meaning of the word. I think that should be justified before it is used in that way.

The passage in 1 Timothy 5:1-2 is also used, "Treat younger men as brothers, older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.” However, one could see this passage as looking at our relationships with people outside the scope of dating / courting (indeed the very concept of choosing a spouse via dating / courting is foreign to the Bible, but I don't think anyone is proposing going back to the marriage practices of that time). No one is going to marry their sister, and in my opinion the idea that a couple who are engaged must treat each other as brother and sister until they are married is rather inappropriate.

Either way, I think a lot of work needs to be done before the relationship between kissing and sexual sin can be justified.

3. Philippa said the following at 2:05 PM on Jan 20:

Romantic kissing is delightful and yes, sexy, but it doesn't lead automatically to sex and it really doesn't begin to be on the same moral and emotional level as sex. So why pretend that it is?

I do not believe that romantic pre-marital kissing is sinful. I believe such an idea is an overly legalistic and heavy-handed response to the challenges of the permissive society in which we live.

I can only illustrate my point from my own life. I have no guilt about the kisses I exchanged with two previous boyfriends. I didn't go to bed with either chap, so there's no sin to confess. The memories of those kisses are sweet. And guilt-free.

For those of you claiming biblical backup for the extreme position that pre-marital kissing is a sin, perhaps you should revert to the culture of the New Testament and only practice wedding celebrations that last seven days.

... Actually, I know mission partners in cross-cultural marriages whose weddings were quite similar to that.

Which is cool.

But it still doesn't make pre-marital kissing sinful.

4. Leah said the following at 10:36 PM on Jan 20:

Or maybe there IS no "wrong" or "right"

5. Jake Linn said the following at 10:54 PM on Jan 20:

The first thing we must keep in mind is that Mr. Croft presented this as a statement of fact. He said "According to scripture, extramarital kissing is a sin -- and here's why"

Therefore, it is not enough to simply say "I disagree", or even to say "He's wrong." What is required is for someone to say "According to scripture, extramarital kissing is not a sin - and here's why". (The here's why being the part where they support their argument.)

To specifically address some of the posts here...
#2, Dave -

Regarding 1 Tim 5:1-2
Yes, it could be viewed as reflecting our relationships outside of dating, but is there any reason to view it that way? Since, as you mention, the Bible doesn't talk about dating/courtship, that's doubtful. It would appear, then, that the passage deals with all relationships outside of marriage.

Further the "sister" part is just an analogy -- so for the sake of clarity, that's remove it, and the other analogies, momentarily. Therefore, it now reads

"Treat younger men, older women, and younger women with absolute purity"

That's what Paul is trying to get across. It doesn't differentiate between dating or non -- dating, etc. Therefore, we are required to treat everyone with absolute purity. The question, then, is this -- "Is romantic kissing treating each other 'with absolute purity'?"

I think, given what he said about the role of kissing as "foreplay" for sexual intercourse, romantic kissing outside of marriage is not treating the other "with absolute purity", and therefore is forbidden under this passage.

Finally, you mention that "in my opinion the idea that a couple who are engaged must treat each other as brother and sister until they are married is rather inappropriate."

No offense, but your opinion doesn't cut it. Can you provide passages that support that opinion?

#3, Philippa -

The same problem arises. Opinion doesn't cut it, we need Biblical facts here. Even allowing, as Mr. Croft did, that it might be possible to "engage in extramarital romantically oriented physical activity and obey the above biblical standards while doing it" your statements come off lacking.

You admitted that "Romantic kissing is delightful and yes, sexy". This sounds like there might have been "even a hint" of sexual immorality in it (Eph 5:3-5). Further, given the role of kissing as sexual foreplay, it would not seem that it was done in "absolute purity". (1 Tim 5:2)

Of course, I could well be wrong. So, I invite you all -- prove me wrong. Prove Mr. Croft wrong. But prove it, don't just state it.

Jake

6. Rachael said the following at 12:53 AM on Jan 21:

I am REALLY pleased with the treatment of this subject in both the article and clarifications. I know many Christian singles who have readily adopted the relationship patterns of their secular counterparts, and the results have been fraught with pain and compromise. Folks, we know that God calls us to be different -- yes, RADICALLY different. And our motivation should not be that someone has called a particular activity a sin, but because we seek to be among those who "flee youthful lusts" and(...)"call on the Lord out of a pure heart." I hope we can all agree that we are called to deny ourselves and follow Him. The extent and quality of that denial depends on each one of us, but at least we can be sure that He withholds nothing good from us. So lets stop dreading seeming "puritanical," and start letting God make us holy.

7. Jason W said the following at 4:29 AM on Jan 21:

Why light a fuse when you don't intend to explode the dynamite?

8. Dave said the following at 10:57 AM on Jan 21:

Jake Linn wrote:
Therefore, it is not enough to simply say "I disagree", or even to say "He's wrong." What is required is for someone to say "According to scripture, extramarital kissing is not a sin -- and here's why".

My point of view is that Scott Croft's inclusion of extramarital kissing as a sin is very weak (namely extending the word porneia to include kissing, which as far as I know is a novel exegesis of the word). So, I don't think the onus is on me to prove that kissing is not a sin, when I don't think that it ever has been included as a sin.

Jake Linn wrote:
Finally, you mention that "in my opinion the idea that a couple who are engaged must treat each other as brother and sister until they are married is rather inappropriate." No offense, but your opinion doesn't cut it. Can you provide passages that support that opinion?

Also no offense, but neither does your opinion. And I don't think that we're dealing with anything more than opinions here. As I said above, I really don't see a Biblical argument for including kissing as a sin. The argument that kissing is a one-way path to sex is also little more than opinion. Certainly foreplay will include kissing, but it may also include holding hands, looking each other deeply, talking. Why draw the line at kissing, but not include talking? If we keep going down that slippery slope I think every man can admit to having been turned on at just the sight of an attractive woman. Should women be dressed in burkhas? In my opinion (and yes, it is just my opinion) we are drawing arbitrary lines here which could just as easily be drawn somewhere else. Given the sexual mores of our society these lines may be wise, however to claim that this is 'Biblical', that extramarital kissing is a sin, that a man 'defiles' a women when he kisses her, that that is entirely unsupported.

9. Lis said the following at 11:26 AM on Jan 21:

You know, just like fasting, not-kissing could be an act of faith. It could say to God, "I could take advantage of this opportunity, but I'm not going to, because I'm expecting that You'll provide something so much better!"

10. Philippa said the following at 12:51 PM on Jan 21:

Jake,

Dave didn't just state his own opinion. He made a convincing biblical argument based on the definition of the Greek word 'porneia'. I'm not sure why you overlooked this. I was already convinced by Dave's argument, so I saw no need to repeat the point.

11. Hannah said the following at 1:47 PM on Jan 21:

I just wanted to say thanks for this. It's actually a relief to know that there is biblical basis to the no-kissing-before-marriage arguement. My previous relationship experience has given me a bad taste for physical affection, largely because it felt so selfish and always left me wanting more. Your words have made a lot of sense. Thank you.

12. Gina Dalfonzo said the following at 6:29 PM on Jan 21:

It seems to me that the burden of proof is on Scott here. He makes the claim that romantic kissing is in itself sexual activity and thus sinful outside of marriage, but how does he back that up? In my opinion, he does not successfully make his case, and I think that shows when he states that there's room for reasonable people to disagree. Where has the Bible ever allowed room for disagreement on what sin is? Is it really the case that many Christian unmarried couples are sinning right now as they kiss, but it's not such a big deal because they don't realize it's sin? How does that make sense?

If God really doesn't want us doing something, I think He makes that clear to us.

And if Scott is truly looking for strong believers who don't regret kissing before marriage, I could refer him to my parents, who were high school sweethearts and happily married for over forty years now. Or my best friend and her husband, who kissed before marriage and have no regrets. Or quite a few other Christians I know. In fact, I would have a hard time thinking of Christians I know who DO regret kissing before marriage.

13. David said the following at 9:17 PM on Jan 21:

"Love is not self-seeking"

That's the crux of it all, folks. If you haven't made a committment that's lasting, and you still want to kiss, can you actually say that you aren't seeking self-gratification?

You guys are all intelligent. Let's not use our intelligence to rationalize sin and dishonor God.

God Bless,
D

14. Ariana Miller said the following at 9:37 PM on Jan 21:

I appreciate Gina's comment. Croft's comment that he believes that pre-marital, romantic kissing is sinful, while also believing that reasonable Christians can disagree about it, also gave me pause. The Bible does not allow Christians to disagree on what is actually sinful. What it allows Christians to disagree on are doctrinal issues (true/false claims) which have no bearing on the Gospel, and on behaviors (such as drinking alcohol) which may or may not be sinful depending on the particular person, and their particular context. An issue of sin has to do with how one relates himself to God and to others. If non-married, romantic kissing is sinful, then it is in some way a violation of the command not only to obey God, but to love one's neighbor properly. I think that the question should then be: "In just what way does a romantic kiss inherently (at any time, with any person) defraud or harm my brother or sister?" If that question can be answered, then all non-married Christians are bound to refrain from romantic kissing, there being no room some Christians choosing to love their romantic interest well, and others choosing not to do so.

Personally, I have not been convinced by this article or by other literature making an argument against pre-marital kissing. But I think that a very strong and perhaps more convincing argument could be made if it came from the perspective of what it means to love the person you are dating, and how a kiss fits into that. Such an argument was a part of Croft's article, but his argument seems to rest on the premise that a romantic kiss before marriage is sexually immoral and therefore forbidden by God. Christians do not disagree about whether sexual immorality is forbidden by God. But the question still remains as to why a kiss is sexually immoral. Is it becuase it can lead to sex, or becuase it can be arousing, or becuase it can be lustful? While all of those things may be true, they are not necessarily so; and there are plenty of simple kisses that are not meant to be taken any further than that. If it is possible to have a range of physical affection in non-romantic relationships, why would that same range be automatically excluded from a romantic relationship, as if there were no other layers to the relationship other than romantic interest and sexual attraction?

And lastly, Boundless has endorsed a website on sexuality, PureIntimacy.org, on which "sexuality" is explicitly given a broader context than a romantic one. Physical affection and horsing around, etc. in all contexts is spoken of as an expression of our sexuality. I find that Croft's statement that "romantically oriented kissing is sexual activity, such that when done outside of marriage, it is itself sin," gives short shrift to this perspective. Though it is likely that by "sexual activity" Croft means activity directly related to sexual intercourse, the question still remains as to how every romantic, non-marital kiss (and every marital kiss for that matter) is directly related to sexual intercourse.

15. Jen said the following at 10:42 PM on Jan 21:

I think that most of what I would say concerning biblical backing for this topic has been said somewhere through all these posts already, so I won't repeat it. All I would like to say right now is that from personal experience, it is possible to kiss in a way that is honoring to the Lord.

My boyfriend & I did not adequately discuss the whole issue of physical intimacy at the beginning of our relationship, and we regret it. It gave us an excuse to kiss for longer than we should have (and while it was a slippery slope I also learned that extended periods of kissing, while I have been convicted of it, does not necessarily lead to further things, at least not in our case). We have recognized this, repented, prayed & discussed physical intimacy, and have come up with some things that enable us to appropriately express our affection and comfort (ie after a bad day) etc. That includes brief kisses, mostly goodbye - and we are able to stick to that, and kiss in a way that is not self-centered, self-gratifying, or tempting to selfish indulgence. At times when I have been upset, my boyfriend will give me a hug or put his arm around me or kiss me briefly. Sometimes he does these to convey affection while we're talking. And it doesn't go further.

I am not using this to justify kissing before engagement/marriage for others - our beliefs and standards can only be justified by the Bible, and shouldn't be based on personal experience of ourselves or others. All I am saying is that, for reasons that I won't get into because they've already been stated by others, my boyfriend & I are able to kiss in a way that we believe is honoring to the Lord and which we do not believe is forbidden in the Bible.

That being said, I respect those who have determined before the Lord to abstain from kissing and/or other forms of physical intimacy/contact before marriage. After my experience at the beginning of dating my boyfriend, I do believe this is wise.

It is important for us to build each other up & encourage each other as brothers and sisters in the Lord - and while encouraging things like not kissing before marriage can be helpful & beneficial, it is important not to condemn others for kissing & other forms of physical intimacy/contact by implying that it is a sin. Fornication obviously is a sin; beyond that, what one person determines is appropriate in obeying & honoring our Lord - based on convictions from reading the Bible & the work of the Holy Spirit - is between him/herself and God.

16. Leah said the following at 10:45 PM on Jan 21:

David- "If you haven't made a committment that's lasting, and you still want to kiss, can you actually say that you aren't seeking self-gratification?"

Are you saying it's only "self gratification" when the two of you aren't married? If it's not self-gratification when married, why is it when you're not married?

And besides -- I'd answer "yes" to that question. True, it's not true ALL the time. But it certainly is at other times.

I still have issues with why kissing is self-gratifying before marriage and not after.

Gina- "In my opinion, he does not successfully make his case, and I think that shows when he states that there's room for reasonable people to disagree. Where has the Bible ever allowed room for disagreement on what sin is?"

Amen, sister!

Jason- "Why light a fuse when you don't intend to explode the dynamite?"

Kissing isn't always a fuse that leads to dynamite.

Jake- there is nothing to prove here. Scott Croft hasn't PROVEN anything, and his opposers can't PROVE anything. Scott has proven that sexual activity outside marriage is a sin- he has not, however, PROVEN that kissing is always a sexual activity. You said "the role of kissing as sexual foreplay". Well, let me turn your own challenge back to you- "prove it. Don't just state it."

As I said though, I don't think there's anything to prove. If people feel they should not kiss before marriage, good on them. If people feel they are free to kiss before marriage (provided of course it doesn't lead to sexual activities) then good on them.

I agree with Dave when he says "Given the sexual mores of our society these lines may be wise, however to claim that this is 'Biblical', that extramarital kissing is a sin... is entirely unsupported". Us "pro-kissers" or whatever you want to call us are not OPPOSING the idea of not kissing before marriage. We are opposing the idea of calling it a sin.

I think Ariana and Gina both gave very sound comments.

17. Adam said the following at 12:09 AM on Jan 22:

Jake Linn,

You said:
You admitted that "Romantic kissing is delightful and yes, sexy". This sounds like there might have been "even a hint" of sexual immorality in it (Eph 5:3-5).

First of all, are you aware of the fact that the NIV is the only translation that translates this passage in that way? It is similar to the "abstain from the appearance of evil" argument that people make, not recognizing that the KJV is the not the best translation at that point. Second, is there not a way we can understand her words in which they do not mean sexual sin? Are you not equivocating on the meaning of the word "sexual?"

You said:
Further, given the role of kissing as sexual foreplay, it would not seem that it was done in "absolute purity". (1 Tim 5:2)

Your argument is totally circular as it assumes that kissing is not "absolute purity."

Second, I would say that the scriptures reject the idea that our environment can cause us to sin. As Jesus says:

Mark 7:15 there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man.

James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.

In other words, it is because of our own wickedness that we do what is wrong, and not because of what is outside of us. It has nothing to do with our environment, nor what is around us. That is a purly gnostic concept. In fact, in the very context of refuting the gnostics, Paul says:

Colossians 2:20-23 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)-- in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

So, here is the question. If you think you can avoid sin by not kissing, why does Paul say that commands such as "do not touch" will be of no value against the desires of the flesh? Paul also says that you will even look wise if you do such things. However, the real issue is the heart. It is not "foreplay" it it is not "kissing" or anything of the sort. The question is what is in your heart, and what do you desire more ... sexual intercourse, or obedience to God's law?

God Bless,
Adam

18. S said the following at 12:41 AM on Jan 22:

I really like Ariana's comment, because I feel that many people who are single, and thus have never had sex are speaking about kissing and sex in terms of "self-gratification", "on-ramps", sticks of dynamite and so forth. These analogies assume that in the context of marriage, romantic kissing is foreplay, and *the only point* of foreplay is sex. But this is an extremely limited and limiting view of human sexuality and affection, and the expression of that affection. (I would warn the single, celibate men on this site that such a view [romantic kissing should/always will lead to intercourse] will leave your wives [and perhaps yourselves] frustrated, disapointed, bored, etc.)

But moreover, comments like David's above:
"'Love is not self-seeking' That's the crux of it all, folks. If you haven't made a committment that's lasting, and you still want to kiss, can you actually say that you aren't seeking self-gratification?"

completely ignore that kissing (and I'm not talking horizontal, groping, extended make out sessions, but gentle, loving meaningful kisses) *give* pleasure and affection to one's partner *as much as to* oneself! And, if that affection is genuinely felt by both parties, that is to say that no one is taking advantage of another, then how is this dishonoring God? I truly, truly see this, within established, agreed upon limits (like no lying down, clothes staying on, and hands not wandering) as a beautiful expression of affection.

I also think that if a couple decides that even that is too much, then fine! But to claim it is sin because it is selfish seems to misunderstand sexuality. What, exactly, about a marriage ceremony makes kissing afterwards un-selfish? The commitment? Does that mean that post-wedding ceremony, intimacy and sex cannot ever be used in a selfish or manipulative way *because it is post ceremony*? Of course not! Kissing, sex, intimacy, they must all be used in a God honoring way, at all stages of a relationship.

19. Nelson said the following at 9:26 AM on Jan 22:

I've always been curious as to why people who date need to be romantic. Is romance really what holds marriage together? Is that what love really is? Is romance really the best way to discover the priorities and values of the other person? The passage that I think about when people talk about romance is 1 Co 7:33, where Paul gives both the husband and wife God ordained duty to "please their spouse". In this context, it is clearly for married people.

When people date, I will assume that the readers here are marriage minded. So, given that context, is getting romantically involved the best course of action? What is the real driving force behind figuring out if kissing is sinful or not? Ask yourself that and spend some real effort to figure it out. As Jeremiah 17: 9-10 says:

The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
"I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve."

my boyfriend & I are able to kiss in a way that we believe is honoring to the Lord and which we do not believe is forbidden in the Bible.

You'll need to state more than belief to say something is "honoring to the Lord". I find no biblical reference to romance between non-married people that are reflective of this.

20. Alison D. said the following at 1:01 PM on Jan 22:

I just have one point of contention with Croft's article. He states that the only reason that married people engage in kissing/touching is in preparation for sexual intercourse. As a married woman, I can say that is not true. My husband and I often kiss/cuddle/fondle naked in bed without the intention or the end result of having sex. We are often talking during these times, sharing our frustrations and fears with one another. It is a wonderful way to minister to one another--it comforts and encourages so deeply--and truly is not "sexy" in the conventional sense of the word.

P.S. I am not, however, arguing that this behavior is acceptable to God outside of marriage. It isn't. Simply that Croft is wrong when he says that the ONLY reason people engage in these activities is in preparation for sexual intercourse.

21. Ted Slater said the following at 1:17 PM on Jan 22:

Alison wrote that Scott Croft "states that the only reason that married people engage in kissing/touching is in preparation for sexual intercourse."

I've re-read what Scott wrote above and in the article on Boundless.org, and can't find anywhere where Scott says this. Instead, I see where he acknowledges different kinds of kissing.

The type of kissing addressed in the article, and in his post above, is "romantically oriented" kissing. I can't imagine anyone not understanding what this means, frankly, and how it's different from certain cultural greetings, goodbye pecks, and so on....

22. Chris Krycho said the following at 3:17 PM on Jan 22:

Nelson -- speaking from even my own limited experience, romance is a very significant part of what drives people together in the framework in which we currently pursue marriage. You're welcome to argue that it's not a necessary component, but I doubt you're going to find much support for that Scripturally.

Nelson said, You'll need to state more than belief to say something is "honoring to the Lord". I find no biblical reference to romance between non-married people that are reflective of this.

You likewise need to state more than belief to say that something is not honoring to the Lord. I find very few Biblical references to the pursuit of marriage at all whatsoever, which is unsurprising given their culture had different norms... and the few instances I can think of include some very romantic actions indeed. I suggest you reread the parts of Song of Solomon where the two first meet and he woos her; and indeed the vast majority of the poetry therein. You'll find plenty of romance in that pursuit.

You said, I've always been curious as to why people who date need to be romantic. Is romance really what holds marriage together? Is that what love really is? Is romance really the best way to discover the priorities and values of the other person?

...

When people date, I will assume that the readers here are marriage minded. So, given that context, is getting romantically involved the best course of action?

I think I see what you're getting at with this. If your concern is that romance overwhelms everything else in the relationship, then I agree with you. However, it seems to me that you're going a step further and saying we should avoid romantic involvement when pursuing a marriage, and there I think we're going to have to disagree. For Biblical grounds, I'll point you again in the direction of Song of Solomon, as well as the actions taken by Ruth, David, and others. Romance is and should be a part of marraige. Should it be the sole focus of marriage? Hardly. Glorifying God together should. But God made us romantic beings.

Also... I'd like to see anyone try to have a successful relationship without romance. We're wired for it, and I simply have a hard time picturing that relationship. That's not to say it's impossible, but it's certainly pointlessly ascetic, and borderline gnostic in its approach to the question at hand.

Ted Slater: The type of kissing addressed in the article, and in his post above, is "romantically oriented" kissing. I can't imagine anyone not understanding what this means, frankly, and how it's different from certain cultural greetings, goodbye pecks, and so on....

Ted, I think the problem is that Christians can and do honestly differ as to whether romantic kissing is inherently sexual. There's a serious question here of how we're defining "romantic." Several people have made the point that it's quite possible to kiss each other -- in the context of a committed, romantic relationship -- in ways that are not sexual, yet they consider to be romantic. While I appreciate very much where you and Scott are coming from on this (and even, to a certain extent, agree), I think conflating the two types of kissing is unwise. If even within marriage there are many romantic kisses that are affectionate but not sexual (as several married people here have argued), there is simply no reason (other than presupposition of the conclusion) to believe that all romantic kisses outside of marriage are sexual.

Based on that last line, are you saying now that "goodbye pecks" are okay for unmarried couples? Because that's a kiss -- even, quite possibly, a very romantic kiss, even if it's only a peck (it would be for me). And romantic kisses are, according to what you guys have argued here, not allowed. Or are goodbye pecks allowed only between married people as well? And if so, given their lack of sexual connotation, why? Again, what sorts of kisses are and are not allowed? As someone else has asked before, is a kiss on the cheek or forehead or hand disallowed, if it's romantic in connotation? Is it allowed if both parties, though romantically interested in each other, consider it only a kiss goodbye, absent romantic connotation? Are intense looks expressing deep affection, or anything other than very distant hugs, appropriate? To me, these all seem to be areas of personal discernment and conviction, rather than clear-cut areas of Biblical absolutes.

I understand the danger of that line of thought: it becomes all too easy to justify kissing as being "romantic but not sexual," but again we come to a place where we see only that the heart is deceitful and wicked. Lust is not inhibited by a lack of physical contact, though I'll certainly acknowledge that it can (though not by any means must) be stirred up by physical contact.

And all of this is coming from someone who has committed not to kiss until he's engaged, and after that only occasionally and chastely -- essentially as a physical sign of the commitment, a seal on the engagement so to speak. I may not kiss until I get married. I have very strong lines on what physical contact is to happen when in a relationship, and will not cross those lines. As such, I've nothing to defend here for my own sake, because I personally have no problem with the concept of waiting to kiss until the wedding day. The notion that I - or many of the others who have posted on this issue - have our own personal desires to defend is fallacious in this case. I hold to my convictions strongly, but those are my lines, and while I recognize the value and wisdom in them, I don't think Scripture speaks clearly enough to say that I ought to be telling everyone else that they need to be following my lines. Again, the exegesis has simply not been convincing on this point.

23. Becky F. said the following at 3:49 PM on Jan 22:

S, you said: "What, exactly, about a marriage ceremony makes kissing afterwards un-selfish? The commitment? Does that mean that post-wedding ceremony, intimacy and sex cannot ever be used in a selfish or manipulative way *because it is post ceremony*?"

Well, the only thing I can think of is that when two people are married their bodies belong to each other, and no longer only to themselves (see 1 Corinthians 7, especially verse 4). Two unmarried people do not belong to each other, and may in fact belong to somebody else eventually. What my mom always told me was be careful who you kiss, because you're most likely going to be kissing somebody else's future husband (or wife when she talks to my brothers). I know this isn't really an answer to the selfishness point you made, but it does make a big difference, in my opinion, as to whether romantically kissing someone you are not married to, or not pledged to be married to, is a good idea.

I wish I hadn't kissed anybody but my husband, and I wish he hadn't kissed anybody but me. So there's an example of a Christian person who does regret most of my kissing before marriage. (I've already posted on another topic on the Line about my regrets pre-wedding with my husband.) I wish I could have been a person who could have waited for at least being engaged before kissing, but I didn't have enough self-control.

24. Gina Dalfonzo said the following at 5:32 PM on Jan 22:

Leah and S are right -- some people here are speaking as if kissing is all about self-gratification outside of marriage, and automatically becomes NOT about self-gratification after marriage. Why can't it be about more than self-gratification before marriage? Does the minister at the wedding tap the couple with a magic wand that changes all their motivations?

Pardon the flippancy, but -- with all due respect -- I have a real problem with all the arbitrariness I'm seeing here. (And I, like Chris, have pretty high standards when it comes to kissing.) I humbly submit that it's very, very dangerous to tell people that one way of doing things, which has not been accepted by all or even a majority of Christians throughout history, is the one true Scriptural way of doing things and everything else is sin. I speak from unhappy experience. I went to school for years at a place where those in authority did just that, and it did much more harm than good. I would ask all my brothers and sisters in Christ here please to consider prayerfully what they're doing and to be very careful not to start laying guilt trips with no true Scriptural foundation on other people. Thank you for listening.

25. xeres said the following at 7:46 PM on Jan 22:

This is quite the topic. Here is my input if I may. There are different types of affections. There is one for family, friends, children, and spouses. There's even the ones for different occassions. Romantic kissing falls under the affections of romantic passion catagory. This catagory is special from all the other kinds of affections. They are the most appropriate when men and women who are lifetime lovers(spouses in holy matrimony I mean) express them towards each other. The reason people show affection of any kind is because they want to show adortion, respect and delight in being in one's presence or company. What makes affections of romantic passion stand out is that the reason previously stated aren't the only reasons why spouses show this kind of affection. The main reason is to give the message the you are special enough to be "the flesh of my flesh". If anyone is wondering "what does all this have to do with the whole topic?", it is that although romantic affections (romantic kissing included) doesn't always lead to sex, it always leads to pleasure when done under the appropriate circumstances. As fallen creatures, we come to use affections as the end of itself or for pleasure's sake rather than the means to show importance or delight in someone. Romantic affection are the most misused. We defraud our fellow sisters or brother when we start showing romantic affections for the sake of pleasure and/or at the end of itself. So if I start kissing some person romantically prior to marraige, I'll be more tempted to do it at the end of itself, not that I won't be tempted to do it like that ever again after I'm married. I decided to reserve my lips until marriage not just to avoid temptation to defraud my brother in Christ, but also to make a habit of not doing things at the end of themselves and start using the things God bless us according to their intended purposes.

26. xeres said the following at 7:57 PM on Jan 22:

I just came up with another reason why I save my frist lip on lip kiss. I want my future husband to be my first and only kisser and lover. That in of itself is so romantic and extraordinary. :)

27. Chris said the following at 10:55 PM on Jan 23:

I think the problem here revolves around the word "romantically." From the piece:

"I believe the Bible to teach that all sexual activity outside of marriage is sin, and all romantically oriented physical activity is sexual activity. In my view, this includes premarital kissing."

Merriam-Webster defines romance (at least the meaning for this discussion) as a "love affair" or "a romantic attachment or episode between lovers".

Thus, if two people kiss "romantically", it would be a type of kiss having solely to do with a "love affair" (e.g., not a socially accepted greeting or display of affection). Please note that "affair" does not mean adultery.

The problem with this, however, is the connotation from the article ("romantically oriented physical activity"). As others have noted, there's this asusumption that it all leads to sex.

This is patently false. A man or woman can kiss her/her spouse in a way that is "romantic" yet not even remotely sexual. If you need it explained to you, you have obviously not been in a serious relationship. If you are in a relationship and do not understand it, then, I'm sorry, but your relationship lacks something very important.

While we're on the subject, why limit it to kissing? What about hugging? Kiss a man, and you get his attention. Touch him gently in the right places (and it doesn't have to be in an erogenous zone), and you have his undivided attention.

If kissing is off limits, why not non-greeting hugs? Isn't that along the continuum, too, that leads to sexual intercouse? Again, from the article:

""Let's talk about two practical arguments that have implications for "just kissing." The first is that all sexual activity is sex. God's design of sex doesn't merely include the act of sexual intercourse. It's also everything that leads up to that act, and everything on the sexual continuum is meant to end in that act. It's called foreplay, and it's a fundamental part of God's design for sex.""

The whole argument against kissing assumes that it's foreplay. Isn't touching part of foreplay, too? From a purely practical standpoint, I'd say that hugging is more dangerous. Not to get graphical, but when I hug my wife, I can put my hand on the curve of her back, smell her skin, feel her hair on my face and neck, and (gasp!) feel her breasts press against my chest. Isn't this blatantly sexual?

If you believe so, then what about a long, lasting embrace that only two people in a "love affair" can have? Those are some of the best, and they have *nothing* to do with sex.

I suppose you could make the argument that kissing (and hugging) of the type I have described is wrong since such displays of affection are to be reserved for one's future spouse. However, you cannot use the argument that romantic kissing automatically constitutes sexual activity outside of marriage.

A common phrase is that sex is not always love. Let us remember that love (and romance) is not always sex.

28. Jason W said the following at 1:25 AM on Jan 24:

Leah,

Any guy that can romantically kiss a woman and not get his fuse lighted deserves a medal.

Jason

29. EmmaLee said the following at 9:58 AM on Jan 24:

Jason W:

Then slap a badge on my husbands chest. Doing something out of love doesn't always light a fuse. Sometimes it just touches the heart. My husband has been reading this debate with me and we think that most people who think all kisses (excluding greeting/friend kisses) are sexual or "start the engines", probably aren't married. We exchange kisses that I call "I love you" kisses, which convey to the other person that you love them without inciting a biological reaction. I think those are the best kind.

BTW, we kissed before we got married and discovered then that there are different kinds of kisses and set down rules to save anything remotely "sexual" for marriage. Neither of us regret kissing before marriage, because it wasn't selfish. We didn't kiss just because it felt good. We kissed to say "I love you" to each other and were able to do so in "absolute purity".

30. Ariana said the following at 4:10 PM on Jan 24:

Emma wrote:
We didn't kiss just because it felt good. We kissed to say "I love you" to each other and were able to do so in "absolute purity".

I am of the opinion that it is indeed possible to share such kisses in purity of heart before a couple is married. And yet, if I were to be convinced that I ought not kiss my romantic interest at least until we were engaged, it would be precisely becuase of what that kiss would communicate. In my reasoning about my own standards regarding this issue, what I am most concerned about is keeping my word to the person that I am interested in, meaning that I don't at any point want to say one thing and do another, or communicate one thing but mean another, or not really mean it at all. Saying "I love you" isn't just an expression of good feeling at the moment, or even admiration. When we say "I love you," the implication is that that love is unconditional and never-ending. And we do not mean simply the charity that all Christians are called to give to every other person. But those words are an expression of our personal commitment to this other person. And when we hear those words, assuming that we believe them, we open ourselves to the speaker, believing that we will be accepted and received with care.

I do not believe that non-marital kissing is sinful, but I am keenly aware of what physical touches can communicate. And here is what I do not want to do: I would never want to, in essence, say "I love you," to a romantic interest unless I could also verbally say those words to him. And I would not verbally say "I love you," unless I could at the same time say, "Yes, I will marry you."

I would feel that I had defrauded my brother if, becuase of what my actions communicated, he opened himself to me and allowed me to enjoy even only a portion of the gift of his person in emotional intimacy and physical affection, only for me not to really be prepared to accept it. I would not want to accept and enjoy it for the moment without also being able to say that I would accept and enjoy him always. Nor would I want to share myself with him in that way unless I knew that he would not only enjoy me now, but love me always.

Saying "I love you" in a romantic context calls the other person to unmask himself and to share himself in a relationship that is different from all others. I don't think that I have any right or reason at all to call any young man to do that unless I could honestly say that I loved him. That wouldn't mean that we couldn't kiss until we were married, but it probably means that kissing without marriage clear in mind would be dishonest and/or self-gratifying.

31. Adam said the following at 6:00 PM on Jan 24:

Nelson,

The point is that one cannot give up doing things just because one is afraid they might sin. There are other things we might avoid as well ... malls, movie theatres, departments stores and almost any public place can be a source of temptation. In fact, almost anything you do can be a source of temptation, come to think of it.

Worse than that, I would like to, again, point out that the Bible does not present sin as coming from our situations. It doesn't present sin as coming from our external environment. In fact, Paul says that the command "do not touch" is of no value against the desires of the flesh [Colossians 2:20-23]. What is worse than that is that Jesus tells us nothing can defile a man from the outside [Mark 7:15], and James tells us that the reason we are tempted is because of our own lusts which are already inside of us [James 1:14]. So, in other words, the reason some people cannot kiss their girlfriend without sinning is not because of kissing itself. It is because there is evil in their own hearts.

The worst part is that, unless this is dealt with, you will carry it right into marriage. The mortification of sin does not happen by changing our environment, it happens because of a change in heart.

In reality, a person who cannot kiss without engaging in lust is only getting rid of the symptoms when he refrains from kissing. The real problem is in his heart. He needs to change the way he thinks about women in general, and if this doesn't happen, evil sexual thoughts can turn into things like pornography, or even adultery.

I am not saying that this will happen to every person who doesn't kiss until marriage, but we need to make sure that our decision to not kiss until marriage is not masking the fact that we have purity issues in this area. For that, only changing your thinking in conformity with the word of God is going to help.

God Bless,
Adam

32. Leah said the following at 7:17 PM on Jan 24:

Well Jason, I know a lot of guys who deserve medals. Are you saying everytime a guy kisses his wife before going to work he 'lights a fuse'?

33. Joy said the following at 12:28 PM on Feb 1:

I agree with scott. Kissing is a thing that should be left till marriage. Have I kept to this belief? No! and it is one of the biggest regrets of my life. Have you ever heard of a gateway drug? well kissing is also a gateway that can lead you to things that will not only harm you, but lead you off the path God has for us. Once emotionally charged, it is so hard to refrain from sexual activity and even if you manage to restrain yourself, you are dishonoring someone else's spouse ( every person is potentially someone else's spouse until you put a ring on that persons finger). When I realised this, i had to repent and personally I made a vow to God that the next kiss i give will be to my husband on my wedding day. This is a truth we christians dont like hearing because the devil lies to us that this is another "fun" thing God is "keeping" from us; but take a step back and study his word...He says no good thing will he keep from us and all the promises he made to David will be ours. In the longrun, honoring God should be of higher priority than honoring our flesh.

34. Joy said the following at 12:42 PM on Feb 1:

To those who made the comment of not seeing kissing as a sin. Let me ask you this...
If you made the decision to stop kissing, what would it take away from your present relationship? would your partner still believe that you loved them?
I once wrestled with these questions till God laid it on my heart that I didnt want to stop because i needed at least a small physical side to my relationships. It made things seem more real...more romantic and more pleasurable. I was playing with a match in a petrol station
I think we really need to pray to God and ask exactly why it is so hard for us not to 'awaken love till the right time" as King Solomon said. These pleasures ( No one can lie that kissing is not pleasurable) are being stolen from their rightful owners( our God chosen spouses)

35. peejay said the following at 12:16 PM on Jul 3:

i believe that kissing is sinful if it is not a married couple.... why???? its because.... as wat the verse said... u will never kiss your younger sister. and we know that we must be a christ like people..... we must respect our body because this our living temple.... and body is not just from neck to feet but it includes ur head and face.... maybe its a trend in our secular world... but trend is different from wat is right.....

36. Ballpin14 said the following at 2:55 PM on May 15:

Let me just begin by thanking Scott and Ted for the opportunity to read and participate in this discussion. I would also like to thank Adam aka (PuritanCalvinist)as well as Chris for their detailed input on the matter.

I am from the tiny island of St. Lucia and day after day I face this argument with believers including the lady I'm dating. Let me just cut to the chase and establish myself as being against the presupposition that romantic kissing is sexual activity and therefore is sin when practiced outside of marriage.

I do see the wisdom involved in the discipline and i have no problems with persons who choose to follow that path. But such a path is not dictated by scripture thus it is futile to debate it on a scriptural basis. I believe that it boils down to the two persons involved and the desires of their hearts when they do romantically kiss. Their version of a romantic kiss may not consist of any self-gratification or lust of the flesh or impure thoughts. If you kiss with a heart that is after the flesh or in simple terms, you kiss motivated by impure thoughts; then by this very nature kissing would fall under lust and ultimately sin. But the author of this article like many other people, have careless assumed that a romantic kiss is sexual in nature when that's not always the case! The article should state the question, "What is the condition of your heart when you kiss romantically?" because that is the true nature of this argument.

Like Adam has said before in his two posts: it has to do with the condition of our hearts. Follow James 1:14,But every man is tempted when he's drawn away of his own lusts, and enticed, and Col 2:20-23. Strangely, this argument is no different from the one which forbids Christians from going to the movies or to any events which are secular in nature because it can lead to sin or it is "not pleasing with God" (this is not the view of Ted or Scott btw.)

Yet the truth of the matter is that we are in the world but not of the world and we will always bump into sinners every now and then and we will be tempted every now and then too. In order for us to truly 'flee from temptation' would that require us to dig and build an underground home separate from the world or even to not have a girlfriend or boyfriend period...just so that we can stay and keep holy unto the Lord? Of course not…yet this is what many people have assumed in this scenario.

We are called to be lights of the world and light can only shine in areas where there is darkness, and the light spoken of has to do with the condition of our hearts, our intentions when we go shopping and to the cinema amongst unbelievers, the condition of our hearts when we try to evangelize to sinners who could very well tempt us to sin, the condition of our hearts when we kiss, caress, hold, hug, talk, look into another's eyes, smile etc. THE CONDITOIN OF THE HEART.

37. Lynda Ruth said the following at 7:49 PM on May 20:

Well I think that The Idea That No Kissing Before Marriage doesn't make sense to me at all!!! First off kissing is a private between two people who deeply love and care about each other;which should be establish before kissing but once that is establish and you have a good solid friendship a kiss is allowed to express how you feel towards The Person if your motivate is pure and to show you deep gratitude of how much The Person means to you;If you can't commit to this type of feeling then you shouldn't kiss and that is sinful to lead someone on if you don't deeply care about someone and want to spend The Rest of Your Lives With Them;You have to make sure The Person is right for you and Jesus is telling This Person Is Right For You but The Act Of Kissing isn't a sin it The Motivate behind The Kiss That Is The Real Sin Or No Sin!!! I have nothing to say about this issue expect my first kiss will not be at The Alter;it will be a kiss in The Privacy of My Relationship not for everyone to see!!! The second kiss is at The Alter for Commitment!!!

~God Bless and do things for The Right Reasons~

38. Lynda Ruth said the following at 4:09 PM on May 22:

I am not sure if The Author Of "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" would get offened by this but I just can't wait until My Wedding Day To Be Kissed!!! I wouldn't date a Christian guy who would only want to be kissed on his Wedding Day!!! To me if you are dating someone and you both have establish a strong solid friendship for awhile and both deeply care about each other and are willing to commit to those type of feelings there is nothing sinful about kissing before The Wedding Day!!! I wouldn't walk down The Isle with a guy who just a friend because if you have not expressed feelings of love then it just a friendship to me and that not ok with me!!! Kissing second off it between two people that are willing to commit to those type of feelings of caring about each other and loving each other dearly if you can't commit to those feelings then you shouldn't kiss someone!!! That is a sin!!! The First Kiss is between two people that really want to share their lives with each other!!! It intimate and should be expressed inprivate in their dating relationship that it not something I am willing to share with a congregation!!! My kiss with My Husband will be a kiss of commitment!!! Besides,no offense The Main Reason I don't believe in it besides The Preciousness And The Gift it hold you look all wired up their never kissed!!! The Husband wants to give his wife a passionate kiss not no peck/small kiss on The Lips but you both don't know what your doing The Kiss looks unatural and to me it is embarrassing!!! You are a great writing and everything and you have a lot of great concepts and enjoyed your sciptures you put in their as well in your book "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" but My first kiss will not be at The Alter!!! It not in The Bible where did people come up with This No Kissing At The Alter Joshua???

You know why people can't control themselves at The First Kiss Because They Aren't Friends First and don't use commentsense!!! Praying with each other on dates and what your motivation with The Person and how long you spend time alone it just very simple it can be done!!! To me if you have to wait to kiss until The Alter you are hiding something that you can't control yourself!!! The Main Thing is what you do after The Wedding weather you wait for your first kiss or not what do two people bring into The Marriage!!! What roles is The Man and The Women sopose to bring to The Marriage that is what I was expecting your book to be about "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"...I know you won't post this but I just wanted to let you know why I feel so strong about this!!!

~Lynda Ruth Leavy~

Posted by: Lynda | May 22, 2008 5:50 PM

Name:

39. Rick said the following at 9:23 PM on Jun 23:

When the Bible describes which foods are sinful to eat (I cannot quote it, nor remember who said it, I believe it had to do with Corinthians but I can be mistaken)it states that if one does not feel shame in the act it is not a sin, I believe this applies to other things that are not clearly defined in the Bible (such as gambling, drinking, ect..)In other words, if it is not clearly stated as a sin and a person wishes to engage in an act and can do so with out guilt and shame, then it is not a sin. Why should I feel shameful for kissing the woman I love that God has given to me but have not yet married? I dont and I will not as long as I kiss her in love. If I were to kiss another girl out of lust then I would feel shame and guilt and therefore it is a sin to me. Lets face it, when we are in love there is a shimmer of lust, it is human nature and cannot be avoided. Physical attraction is that shimmer of lust and is necessary for a dating relationship, why? Because it is necessary to progress into marriage. Why marry someone when there is no physical attraction? Sex is a gift from God but the physical attraction is necessary to arouse both partners to engage in sex. It cannot be magically turned on once someone says "ok, your married now." Think on that

40. Ashley Harris said the following at 8:06 AM on Jun 24:

re: (39)

Shimmer of lust?

Sounds a lot like "a hint of sexual immorality" to me ;)

41. Chris said the following at 4:22 PM on May 23:

With the discussions on the word "porneia" my thoughts are this and I think it brings things into perspective. If sexual immorality is called adultery when it takes place between persons who are married (either one or both) and fornication is the same for those who are not married – then the chances are they look similar in terms of what is and what is not permissible. If I kissed another woman then I'm sure my wife would say that I had committed adultery. So surely if an un-married man kisses an un-married woman this is fornication as a married man kissing a women to whom he is not married is adultery. This is why I think it is legitimate to include kissing in the bracket of porneia.

42. John said the following at 5:39 AM on Jun 17:

I hear and understand the comments. However it is important to note that, as has been pointed out, the link between premarital kissing and sexual sin/immorality is weak BUT NOT ABSENT. It may well be that 99.999% of readers can kiss romantically AND remain pure but there may the be one time when you can't or one individual who can't. Each person should (in my opinion) start from a 'no (romantic) kissing' stance and work from there, in prayer and support from their partner to find a safe stopping point, ideally far from the edge of sexual immorality.

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