Biblical Dating
by Ted Slater on 11/30/2006 at 11:30 AM
The posts by Suzanne and me, as well as the comments on those posts, touch on various aspects of Christian dating. An article we published on Boundless this morning called Biblical Dating aims to get to the very heart of Christian dating.
I'd be interested in hearing what our readers think of the principles the author presents, and the biblical support and logic he employs to drive his argument.
1. Michelle said the following at 12:42 PM on Nov 30:
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The author says that most of the readers will disagree or be initially annoyed with his statements. Then he asks us to question ourself why. I'm neither disagreeing or annoyed with his statements... maybe I'm just a little confused.
The author almost assumes that Biblical dating is ultimately the right way to date and the modern dating approach is bad? The Biblical evidence he presents is clear and understandable, but I think it can also support Godly Christian dating too. I think you can definitely find a Godly approach to dating and still keep Him at the center of your life.
Some people, without even knowing exactly what Biblical dating is, choose to enter a relationship with marriage in mind and don't support the idea of "playing the field." There are many couples who rather hang out together in group activities rather than alone. And there are Christian couples who are totally committed to keeping Christ at the center of their relationship and in addition have committed themselves to staying pure until marriage.
I believe God will too support a Godly dating relationship, not just courtship. A Christian couple participating in the 'modern dating approach' can still bless their brothers and sisters in Christ and even be a good example towards non-Christian couples. They can be light and salt in this society where dating is taken way too lightly, and most importantly glorify God's name through their thoughts and actions.
By the way, thank you Boundless and the Boundless Line for your insightful posts and articles. This Jesus freak really appreciates it. =]
2. Mike Theemling said the following at 1:19 PM on Nov 30:
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Although I believe that the Bible is definitely a good reference for what principles to apply when finding a mate, but I do not believe there is one "Biblical model".
If we were to use that argument, saying we should "follow how the Bible did it" then we all ought to marry through parental arrangement as was the norm in those times yet I don't see him saying that we should do that.
He does bring up good points that trying to apply Biblical principles in today's environment often fails because of underestimating temptation or people being to self-centered. Still, there needs to be some practicality and realism mixed in with his thesis.
I attended a seminar he held at Focus discussing this issue. What's not mentioned is that he also believes:
- The timetable from approaching a woman's father (or family member) to be marriage should be about 6-12 months
- Men and women ought not to go out alone on "dates" together (e.g. going out for coffee, a dinner/movie, etc) unless the intention to marry is there
- When approached, a woman can say "No" but needs to seriously reconsider before giving an unequivocal rejection
The bottom line is that although in theory this model probably is superior to traditional dating methodology the trick is getting people to follow it. Any guy/girl who strictly followed this model ANYWHERE in this country (except maybe in an Amish community) is not likely to get married anytime soon.
I know if I followed this model in my local singles group all it would get me a lot of rejection and pretty much kill any opportunities for future prospects within that group.
3. Ted Slater said the following at 1:58 PM on Nov 30:
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Mike wrote: "Any guy/girl who strictly followed this model ANYWHERE in this country (except maybe in an Amish community) is not likely to get married anytime soon.... I know if I followed this model in my local singles group all it would get me a lot of rejection and pretty much kill any opportunities for future prospects within that group."
Not only is that a sad commentary, but it's also an incorrect one.
I followed the principles that Scott teaches (I learned them from someone else), and I was married within 8 months of the beginning of my "courtship." Rather than being the object of ridicule, I was honored by the woman I ended up marrying, and had the respect of her father, my pastor, and the single men and women around me.
If more men would take a chance with a countercultural approach to pre-marriage relationships, my happy experience would not be the exception.
4. Ashleigh said the following at 2:57 PM on Nov 30:
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To add to what Ted mentioned (I'm his wife), not only did we follow this and were married within 8 months, but we had many friends at our church who did the same. A couple we are friends with practiced "biblical dating" for two months, got engaged, and were married two months later. A total of four months. Even though they were both in their 30's and could have claimed they were too old for parental or church oversight, they had both active in their relationship.
I noticed that at the church we attended when we "courted" and got married, marriages happened quickly and often. Why? Because the attitude in the church was that relationships were to be intentional and purposeful. Although each relationship may have been walked out the principles a bit differently, they followed closely to the ideas that Croft discussed (even though they didn't come from his teachings).
5. Sherie said the following at 4:00 PM on Nov 30:
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Ted and Ashleigh, I'm so happy to hear that the biblical model of dating worked so well for you, and it is definitely an excellent example to others! For Ted and Mike, as the men in the equation, you can set the example for others in your churches to follow. My concern comes more from the female side of the equation; if biblical dating is a model that I desire to follow (as it's been defined in the article), how does it work for us if the men in our churches and communities do not date under those principles and have no examples of men who have on which to base their attitudes toward dating? We could conceivably be left waiting a long while on the sidelines as others around us proceed with dating the way the rest of the world does.
6. James said the following at 5:51 PM on Nov 30:
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While I disagree on a STRICT rules oriented model for dating/courtship, I do think that the article brought forth some very good principles on which to base our (men's) view, behavior, and attitude on the process or dating/courtship. The rules another poster posted, though, are good general guides.
As a man who started dating while unsaved and still "of the world", and then finally kicked that bucket a short while after coming to faith in Christ, the "biblical model" as it is called holds great appeal. I know first-hand the problems with the world's position on dating. To the world, it's a game, yet the stakes are very high. The world would have us believe that it's way helps you protect yourself. From experience, I'd like to say straight up that the world is blatantly lying.
The biblical model, as I see it being presented, emphasizes the role of the families of both the young man AND the young woman (both church and biological families), and provides accountability and support for both. I would like to say that this glorifies God, even, because the encouragement and focus from the church and family to the young couple is to seek God first and to honor Him in the relationship. The courtship/dating process then is not a private affair, but rather a community affair where the young couple is safe and can lean on the support of others who love them and can give them advice when they hit rough spots. There is accountability to help stave off frivilous "dumping" and promote the practice of commitment.
It is true that a good number of cases will be that either one or both sets of parents will be absent due to distance (either physical or emotional), or death, etc., but that doesn't mean that the courtship/dating relationship cannot proceed. After all, there is still the church. Even if the two go to different Churches, the body of Christ is still there supporting them. This is assuming that both go to spiritually healthy churches.
Keeping the church active and involved in ones life should be a principle which is practiced not just in courtship/dating and marriage, but also in all other aspects of life. We are all going through life together as members of the Body of Christ. No one Christian is an island, after all.
7. Fred Walker said the following at 7:29 PM on Nov 30:
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It is very annoying for a person to advocate an approach yet to have not used that approach themselves so it's good to hear actual experiences of 'Biblical' dating. Thanks.
8. Mike Theemling said the following at 9:35 PM on Nov 30:
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What Ted and Ashleigh experienced is truly the exception rather than the rule in most churches. I am glad for their experiences, but am still not convinced that in my current environment, as well as many others out there, that I would be as successful.
I have traveled a lot and visted many churches. In most of those churches, "finding a mate" is something that you're on your own to do, and asking the chuch to help you is considered selfish and would get you replys such as, "church isn't a meet-market".
Again, it seems that the key factor of success here is the ATTITUDE of the environment you are in. In the church Ted and Ashleigh attended this kind of behavior would be considered normal I suppose (I would be curious to know how well you or your family knew each other before the actual initiation). And perhaps other settings such as Bible colleges or the Mormon church (they actually highly encourage marriage among young people, albeit based upon faulty doctrines).
I just want to ask the ladies out there, as it seems many who post are such: How would you feel, honestly, if a guy you only knew casually and you weren't head-over-heels over approached you or your family and asked to be married to you in 6-12 months? What would your inclination be? If I am completely wrong in my suspicions I'd like to be corrected of my ignorance.
9. Andy said the following at 9:45 PM on Nov 30:
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Although I appreciate Crofts effort, I do not agree with his dating paradigm. Two things in particular stand out:
First, Croft fails to adress the role of the historical-cultural context in which the "Biblical" model of spouse selection is set. For instance, it is illogical to assume that simply because some examples in the Bible include fatherly influence, it is necessary for a Christian paradigm of dating. We might also assume then, that because in most communal gatherings during Biblical times women had to wear head coverings, they should now, too.
Second, Croft's assertion that being the right person is the most important thing vis-a-vis finding the right person is wrong. If one truly cares about his or her mate, then one must find a mate that is a good fit. Gathering from his other articles, Croft believes that marriage ought to not only parallel, but perfectly reflect the analogy of Christ's preeminent love -- yet the clearest example in Scripture of God specifically commanding someone to marry based upon the analogy of his preeminent love is found in Hosea where he is instructed to marry a prostitute! The example is pristine and immutable -- God is seeking to most clearly illuminate what his love looks like in mate selection, and Hosea is completely obedient.
A less contextualized and more realistic model is needed for Biblical mate selection than what Croft provides.
10. Joy said the following at 9:48 PM on Nov 30:
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For those of you who have followed Biblical Dating, how does it work for those of us in college? My boyfriend and I are planning on marring after we both graduate, meaning that by the time we get married we will have been "dating" for a little over three years. It was a mutual decision that our parents agree with and support us in. Also, what do you meen by church involvement in the relationship? We attend my home church (which is next door to our school), I have been with him to his home church many times, and he is studying to be a preacher.
11. Jake said the following at 10:07 PM on Nov 30:
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Well, whenever an article on this topic appears on Boundless, before I start reading, I think to myself "I wonder how many paragraphs in before the author starts bashing men and assuming the goodness, innocence, and purity of women?" Fortunately, Mr. Croft didn't do that here. However, I still think the article is incoherent.
The general problem is that it exhibits a variation of that tendency, which some of us commenters have criticized before, to take negative trends and observations from the society at large and impute them to the conservative Christian subculture. The purpose of the article seems to be to chastize Christians for practicing modern dating, and command us to practice biblical dating instead. Mr. Croft mentions that modern dating is purely recreational and doesn't make marriage a goal, that it does not involve the families of the parties involved, that it places one's own needs and desires first, that it encourages intimacy before commitment, that it pretends there are no differneces between the sexes, and that it has us attempt to figure out whether to marry someone by acting like we are already married. Now, when one looks at the modern, secular world, all of those things do seem to be present to some degree in dating relationships. But this is not the secular world. Mr. Croft's intended audience is Christians. Why does he assume that the above is what Christians want or are pursuing? Even though I don't know anyone at my church who has undergone what he calls Biblical dating or courtship, I also don't know anyone who would agree that any of the above is a good idea. Indeed, in my own last relationship (which I must mention ended at the young lady's behest, lest I be accused of being one of those men often described on Boundless who refuse to pursue marriage), we were intentional about seeking marriage, we did not become physically intimate (though I think my understanding of that is different from Croft's, who if I recall correctly thinks holding hands goes too far), and I was eager to meet her family for the first time. Was I wrong? Was I pursuing modern dating instead of Biblical dating? Why reprimand Christians for doing something we are by and large not doing?
It's true that I didn't initiate by going through her father. The reason for this is, to echo Mike Theemling, probably both he and she would have thought I was crazy to do so. It would have involved calling up a man I'd never met who lived 500 miles away and asking if I may court his daughter. Come to think of it, how would I have gotten her father's phone number anyway without asking her, which would have pretty much equated to initiating with her rather than him? Or should I have gone through the church, maybe confiding in some of the elders that I was interested in courting her and asking for guidance? Well, if she had gotten wind of that through anyone other than me, I don't think I would have stood a chance -- to a modern woman, Christians included, a man she barely knows expressing serious interest in her behind her back is pretty much the textbook definition of "creepy." Which brings me to another big problem with the article. Croft asks "Can you find explicit support for the modern approach in Scripture?" No, I can't, but I also can't find explicit support in Scripture for women going off to college for 4 years at age 18 to prepare for a career, getting a full-time professional level job, and moving into an apartment with roommates while still single, instead of being told by their father "here's your future husband, the wedding's next month" while they're still teenagers. It's modern life itself that is the source of the modern system, and very few, evangelical Christians or not, will come out wholesale against modern life. Yet a complete rollback of modern life is what would be necessary to effect the changes Croft would like to see. He and those on his side want to have it both ways: they want people to choose to do things the old fashioned way, while leaving the society that makes that action a choice rather than a necessity intact. But in order for these choices to work on a large scale, there needs to be a certain critical mass of people choosing them, or society itself must require them. I could choose to pursue this Biblical system tomorrow, but without any women and fathers in my church choosing it also, my effort would be dead in its tracks.
12. DanL said the following at 10:58 PM on Nov 30:
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This article gave me much to think about, and I will need more time to form a complete opinion. Nevertheless, here are my initial thoughts.
1) The author makes reference to Christians having a divorce rate potentially higher than that of the world. While polls this is true if one merely looks at those who self identify as Christian, if one considers those who attend church regularly, then practicing Christians do have a significantly lower divorce rate (I’ll try to look up the study so I can post numbers). I suspect one would find similar results for the numbers he cites about “sexual involvement outside of marriage.” I can certainly say that the churches I’ve been a part of, and the singles in them, have been noticeably different than the world. This bothers not only because I think he is using misleading statistics to slander his committed Christian readers, but also because I think Croft needs to decide whether to write an apologetic piece on why one should follow traditional Christian sexual morality, or a piece on how committed Christians should seek a spouse.
2) Croft takes a very strong either/or approach between “Christian dating” and “modern dating.” I don’t think any reader of Boundless is going subscribe to what he terms the modern approach, and yet I am not fully convinced that every element of his “Christian dating” description is as necessary as he makes it.
3) I don’t really understand what he means my formal oversight from the church. I guess I would tend to favor what I would call an informal oversight. While it is the Biblical role of the elder to be an overseer, this is different than a micromanager. To be honest the problem here may be with me. I guess I picture Capital Hill Baptist having a stack of forms titled, “Standard Form SF87: Notification of oversight elder of congregant romantic activity.” I know this isn’t what he means, but he never really explains what he does mean.
4) I’m not sure I really buy him claiming that (nearly) all dating should be in group activities. Personally, if I’m not already involved in group activities with someone, then I don’t know them well enough to ask out (although I must admit, I’m starting to rethink this as it is harder to get to know people this way know that I am no longer in school, and I fear limit myself too much, but at the moment I’m not quite comfortable doing anything different yet). I also think that you can get to have more meaningful conversations with people when you are alone. Obviously, one should be careful to avoid placing themselves in an environment that would tempt them, but I haven’t really found this to be a problem. I really don’t think there is anything wrong with inviting a woman to dinner at a public restaurant, for example.
5) I don’t know what to make of this statement “Modern dating tends to assume that you need to get to know a person more deeply than anyone else in the world to figure out whether you should be with him or her.” Yes, I would like to know the person I hope to marry well. Surely there are ways of accomplishing this without misleading someone. I think I’m really missing something here.
13. Ame said the following at 11:50 PM on Nov 30:
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i find this interesting ... all of it ... croft's article and the comment discussion.
personally, i would die, and would have at any age in my life, if a man approached my dad. my dad was very abusive on every level. also, his choice for a man for me would have been horribly distorted because my dad is a "weak" man and would not have wanted "competition."
yet, what i "get" from croft is a need for accountability in every area of our lives, including and especially dating/courting relationships. on that, i completely agree.
i'm not sure how he would define the church's role in this relationship. given my history with my church, i would be greatly reluctant to ask for such a thing.
however, i have created my own "system" of accountability for the time that i begin dating again. i have a mentor who is about 70 and three close, godly friends - all of whom i have developed deep and solid relationships with, and all of whom i choose to allow to keep me accountable in my life. and, that will include dating.
i will want a man to meet with at least one of these four women and possibly their husbands before a first date. yes, that will probably weed out a lot, and, really, that is one of the purposes. very soon, i would want him to meet with all four women. and, i want to meet his friends and those to whom he is accountable.
and, i will continue to choose to allow my friends to hold me accountable.
as a mom with two unbelievably beautiful little girls who are 6 and 9, dating is of HUGE interest to me. for me personally, the stakes are high - and so are my standards. and for my girls? you know, i have a very unique opportunity to model for them purity in every area of my life - including dating/courtship and marriage. they are old enough to remember, and my 9 year old and i have already talked all the way through sex and intimacy and marriage and conception and pregnancy. she will be watching me closely.
there is something else to consider that is probably very difficult for those who are young. every choice you make will be revealed on some level to your children someday. and your children will not differentiate between the you before marriage and the you after marriage when they view you as their parent. to them, you have always been their dad or mom. though my children can visually "see" me go thru a dating process, yours will someday see your dating process, too. your physical, intimate, sexual, relational experiences will affect your children someday. there will be things you may want to hide, but as you know, often what we do not know becomes fertile ground for an overactive immagination, making the truth extremely distorted.
whatever choices we make will never be made in isolation whether we choose to believe that truth or not. every choice we make affects at least one someone and most always many others. we want to take parts of our lives and keep them "private" so that they affect no one else. but that is never possible. there are a few truths i drill into my girls, and one of them is that my life is not just about me.
whatever "process" we choose to adapt for our personal dating choices, may we always remember our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit of God, that the choices we make on our dates are not isolated to that moment in time, and that, above all, we must honor God in everything we do and every choice we make - and that includes honoring the person we are with.
i would love to see single christian men and women begin to integrate godly and healthy boundaries in all relationships, and in so doing may all our individual choices collectively affect a lost world in a positive way for Jesus Christ.
14. Mike Theemling said the following at 8:28 AM on Dec 1:
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Jake has summed up my thoughts perfectly. Thank you for your post!
"It's modern life itself that is the source of the modern system ... Yet a complete rollback of modern life is what would be necessary to effect the changes Croft would like to see ... I could choose to pursue this Biblical system tomorrow, but without any women and fathers in my church choosing it also, my effort would be dead in its tracks."
The reality is in any given time period, there are both good and bad things about it. Courtship might have been prevalent at the turn of the 20th century, but so was blatent racial discrimination and workplace abuse. The women's liberation movement of the 60's broke the "naked, barefooted and pregnant" destiny on many women, but it also increased sexual promiscuity and the divorce rate.
For the kind of radical change Scott Croft wants to bring about in the Christian church would require convincing large groups of people to break about 3+ generations worth of how they did things. Not an easy feat.
Of course, the catch 22 is how are things going to change unless there are those bold enough to try; but if they try they themselves aren't going to get what they are seeking? At this point I'm not willing to pay the price of being spouseless (and to a lesser extent be branded "creepy" by my church peers) because I asked father after father to marry his daughter. Even Dr. Dobson gives this advice:
"Don't be too quick to reveal your desire to get married-or that you think you've just found Mr. Wonderful or Miss Marvelous. If your partner has not arrived at the same conclusion, you'll throw him or her into panic." (Dobson, Life on the Edge)
He would probably agree that the courtship model is preferred, but he knows most young people wouldn't subscribe to it.
15. Christine said the following at 9:54 AM on Dec 1:
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Living over 300 miles away from my parents makes me wonder how I can get married with such a system. I'm all for my parents' involvement in my romantic relationships, but I don't exactly see them too often.
Also, I do believe that marriage should be the goal, but I can also see wisdom in not rushing relationships. I'd love to be able to marry my best friend -- someone who's been there for me and someone whose character has been proven to me over time. I just don't think I can find that in four months, but that's just me.
16. Laura said the following at 11:01 AM on Dec 1:
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I definitely agree with Scott Croft's article "Biblical Dating." I'm a freshman in college, and I have never dated. I just haven't felt comfortable with the world's way of dating. I don't want to give my heart away multiple times before I get married, and I don't want past relationships or mistakes to interfere with that lifelong relationship. I've also committed to saving my first kiss for my husband on our wedding day; I want to honor God and my husband with purity, and I don't want to "awaken love before it pleases." I only want memories of and intimacy with one man...the one I'm going to spend the rest of my life with. It's so encouraging to know there are others out there with the same convictions! I love how God uses His followers to strengthen and build up other believers. God is so good.
17. Ted Slater said the following at 11:11 AM on Dec 1:
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I have to address a few misrepresentations and concerns about biblical dating as described by Boundless author Scott Croft.
First, this approach is counter-cultural, and therefore not a simple thing to put into practice. Those who are putting it into practice are pioneers, like the Pilgrims or those who ventured West from the security of the East Coast. Or like homeschoolers during the 1980s. Most people are more comfortable staying where they're at and not taking the risk (and it is a risk). If you're up to the challenge, though, I believe you will be rewarded.
Second, Mike posed the following question to women: "How would you feel, honestly, if a guy you only knew casually and you weren't head-over-heels over approached you or your family and asked to be married to you in 6-12 months?" That is a misrepresentation of biblical dating. You do not state your intention to marry someone you casually know. That's just silly. What you *do* do is express an interest in together seeking the Lord's will about your potential life together, under the authority of others (could be a father, could be a mentor, could be someone at your church, etc.). If you were to ask a woman the question posed by Mike, you should expect to be dismissed.
Several people have mentioned living hundreds of miles from a parent. In my situation, my girlfriend's parents lived hundreds of miles away, and that frankly wasn't an issue. We live in 2006, for goodness sake. Pick up the phone. Send an email. I flew down there a couple of times. And if the parent is either unavailable or not in a position to be involved, find someone else -- a mentor, a pastor, someone at church you respect. It's not that difficult a concept to grasp -- you should be interested in having someone with some authority and wisdom provide counsel as you together consider the Lord's will about your relationship. Simple. Wise.
Finally, Jake wrote and Mike referenced the following: "I could choose to pursue this Biblical system tomorrow, but without any women and fathers in my church choosing it also, my effort would be dead in its tracks." Come on. You are a man. It is your role to take a chance, take initiative, to establish the context for your relationships. It took a few minutes for you to read Scott's article; I suspect you could explain your convictions to a prospective woman in a few minutes as well. If she doesn't see the wisdom in actively seeking the counsel of parents and/or mentors, and doesn't want to be intentional about the relationship, then perhaps you shouldn't waste your time with her.
Is it really such a fear-inducing thing to open yourself up to the input of parents and/or godly men and women you respect? Is it such a fear-inducing thing to be intentional in your relationships, rather than just sliding along? Is it such a fear-inducing thing to practice self-discipline when it comes to expressing yourself physically with someone you're romantically interested in?
Maybe it's because I've been wrestling with these issues for years, but biblical dating really doesn't strike me as that radical and challenging. Maybe the Lord has given me a double-portion of the pioneer spirit. May He bless those who read this with the bold and adventurous spirit of a godly pioneer as well.
18. Jacob said the following at 12:12 PM on Dec 1:
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My biblical namesake had to work 14 years to marry the woman he loved.
Men, let's quit being pansies and be willing to be inconvienenced for the sake of finding a Godly wife. So what if her parents are 300 miles away? Ted is right: get on a plane. Are you in college? Quit wasting time with your xbox and study so as to make time for such a trip if necessary.
Honestly, it seems like a lot of these objections are rooted in a desire not to be inconvienced. We say we want a wife, but if we have to go out of our way, it's too much trouble, so we decide on what we think is the easy path: sitting around, waiting for a wife to magically materialize.
As a friend of mine once said, only half jokingly, "suffer for love, worship till it hurts." Besides, as we all know, nothing good comes easily.
19. Ame said the following at 12:44 PM on Dec 1:
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you know, as a woman, i would find it flattering if a man approached me saying something like, "i would love to spend time with you and get to know you better, is there someone who i could ask for this privalege?"
the implication would be that i am so valuable that i am being "protected" and "guarded" and that i am not easily accessible.
that he would assume that before approaching me would show how greatly he values and respects me - that he would acknowledge by assumption that i am valuable and respectible and worthy of being protected and guraded.
and you know what? i am!
20. ccinnova said the following at 12:48 PM on Dec 1:
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Scott Croft's essay and the dating system he endorses are mislabeled. To describe as "biblical" a method with which many evangelicals have good faith disagreement is, at the very least, presumptuous.
I find the system Mr. Croft endorses to be rigid and legalistic. Jesus spent much of His earthly ministry rebuking the Pharisees for their burdensome rules and regulations. Why do some Christians wish to impose similarly burdensome rules and regulations on their fellow believers?
The Scriptures give us some commands regarding the marriage process: marriage is between a man and a woman, do not be unequally yoked, avoid fornication and adultery. Beyond that, Christian liberty should prevail.
Regarding a couple of points in Mr. Croft's essay, the divorce rate supposedly being higher for Christians than non-believers does not take into account the fact that non-believers are much more likely to cohabit than believers. Divorce statistics do not reflect cohabiting couples' breakups.
Also, encouraging group activities while dating may intimidate introverts who are much more comfortable in one-on-one settings. The estimated 75% of those who test as extraverts on the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator shouldn't be setting the rules for the other 25% of us.
Mr. Croft's essay has certainly sparked an interesting discussion.
21. Ashleigh said the following at 2:11 PM on Dec 1:
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Joy asked, "Also, what do you mean by church involvement in the relationship?" For Ted and me, it meant keeping ourselves accountable to trusted, wiser members of our church.
For example, before Ted even approached me, he spent time seeking the counsel of one of his close married friends (who also happened to be a pastor at our church and played in a band with Ted). This pastor knew Ted well -- where he was spiritually, his weaknesses, his strengths, and knew the details of his previous dating relationships. He had a history with Ted and was known to be a spiritually mature individual. After we did start our "courtship" (as we called it), Ted made himself accountable to this person and continued to seek advice and counsel regarding our relationship.
For me, I kept myself accountable to and sought counsel from a dear friend who was also happened to be the female care group leader for the group I was in. Additionally, I looked to my parents (even though they were hundreds of miles away) for advice and counsel.
So it meant that we both realized it was important for us to be kept accountable and seek counsel from spiritually mature Christians, who knew us well. It didn't mean that the church leadership as a whole was dictating how our relationship played out.
I think that those who haven't given biblical dating a chance, don't have the authority to call it legalistic and rigid without experiencing it themselves. As someone who has practiced biblical dating (and modern dating in a relationship prior to my relationship with Ted), I can honestly say that there is actually a lot of freedom in biblical dating.
Something that we did, which I don't think you'll find in modern dating because it breaks the "rules" of it, is that we weren't afraid to talk openly about what we wanted our relationship to be characterized by.
I remember our first date. We picked up sandwiches and Ted took me to a park near his house. There, he pulled out two pieces of paper and two pens. Handing one of each to me, he asked me to write down characteristics I wanted to see in our courtship. I’d never done anything like that before. After spending a few minutes brainstorming, we shared our lists with one another. Suddenly the usual vagueness and uncertainty associated with new romances were eliminated. We both had an idea of what the other hoped for and expected to see in our relationship. It was extremely helpful to us and the future of our relationship to be clear on what we expected of our relationship.
I don't know about other women, but I hated my previous relationship where I was left guessing what the guy was thinking or feeling. Were we on the same page? Did he think our relationship could lead to marriage? And even worse believing that I couldn't even mention the "m" word because it might scare him off. Those type of thoughts.
Also, Sherie asked, "If biblical dating is a model that I desire to follow (as it's been defined in the article), how does it work for us if the men in our churches and communities do not date under those principles and have no examples of men who have on which to base their attitudes toward dating?"
I think as women we've forgotten how much power and influence we can have in a dating relationship. Why can't the woman, after being asked out by the man, tell him, "OK, but here's my philosophy on dating. If you want to date me, this is how it's going to be." If the guy really is interested in pursuing a God-honoring relationship with her, I think he would be open to giving biblical dating a try. If it scares him off, then maybe he's not the kind of guy she should be dating.
22. Chris Krycho said the following at 4:34 PM on Dec 1:
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I have to back up those who comment that calling this rigid and legalistic - particularly without having tried it - is folly. It is clear that God has a right way and a wrong way for us to do things. We ought not take freedom as an excuse to sin, as you all recall. This is not a set of rules - it is more a set of guidelines of the heart, and some practical ways we can apply that. Every part of our lives is to be submitted, and not only to God in some abstract sense, but also to the guidance of those older and wiser than us in the church. We have the body for a reason. Without spiritual authority over us, we quickly veer off the path.
As someone who has pursued a young woman in a way that, for all my efforts not to, essentially ended up looking just like the world in terms of patterns of behavior (sure, we kept ourselves physically, but we wounded each other deeply emotionally) and having pursued just a little now in a way much more similar to what is being advocated by Croft, Joshua Harris, and others in a similar vein, I can speak from firsthand experience when I note that this new (old-ish) way is much better. Croft and Harris have it right. The old way has it wrong.
I think perhaps the clearest moment of revelation for me was in reading a book countering Harris and trying to elaborate on a Godly, Biblical way of making dating work, Cloud and Townsend's Boundaries in Dating. Clearly they were well intentioned, but equally clear was that they missed the entire point of Harris' writing: that it is the attitude of our hearts, not some specific set of actions, that God is concerned about (ie, at what stage you kiss - I'm not saying God doesn't care about sinful actions). In fact, I found it ironic that a book devoted to rebutting the "legalism" of I Kissed Dating Goodbye (a legalism I've never managed to find despite having read the book through at least four times) ended up itself being little more than a set of rules about "do this, don't do that in such and such a situation." It also ended up being a very self-centered approach, whereas Harris, Croft, and those like them are advocating an approach to dating that has as its foundation a heart of serving the other person in the relationship - of laying one's life down for them even as Christ did for the church and us as individuals.
It is worth noting - and I hope that Ted or one of the others who have followed this discussion points it out to him - that the divorce rate statistics he quoted are indeed misleading. I and several others pointed this out in our response to the post you put up back when the Census bureau released new figures a month or so ago... marriage among Christians has a way to go, but when normalizing for church attendance alone I believe the divorce rate for Christians drops to around 30% or lower - not perfect, but far from looking like the rest of culture.
Ashleigh - thanks for sharing that story. It was both an encouragement and a source of good ideas!
23. Charles H. said the following at 6:12 PM on Dec 1:
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Very interesting... I usually at least mostly agree with the opinions in Boundless, but in this case I really have to disagree. Awhile back I wrote a rebuttal to _I Kissed Dating Goodbye_, the book that more-or-less established 'courtship' in the evangelical vernacular. Unfortunately it's on a laptop that's ceased to function, but some of the main points (as best I remember them from five or so years ago!) bear repeating.
1. As has already been alluded to, even in the original article, the Bible verses quoted in the article simply do not point to any one method of finding a spouse. They guide us as we use whichever method we're going to use. Bear with me here, because this is very important.
Every single verse the author quotes has to do with purity before marriage -- a worthy goal, no question. However, the article isn't mainly about purity before marriage. Instead, it argues for asking a girl's 'father or family' for permission for a relationship, and then pursuing it 'under [his] authority.' Not even one of the quoted Bible verses states anything to this effect.
So who cares, right? Well, I do. My beef here is that courtship proponents tend to put forth a mixture of somewhat unrelated Scripture verses and 'this is how I think it should be' arguments, then present the whole mix as 'Biblical' -- or even as 'God's will.' I have a problem with that, because it implies that those who do otherwise are in disobedience to God's will. That's a serious assertion to make without strong Scriptural backing.
2. I'm not convinced by the arguments that having a chaste but emotionally close relationship before marriage is immoral. Again, where is this written in Scripture? Obviously we are to set boundaries, but where does the Bible say I ought not kiss a girl or hold her hand? This goes back to #1: it's fine to have an opinion, but there is a big, big difference between stating "I think you shouldn't kiss until you're engaged" and "God thinks you shouldn't kiss until you're engaged."
3. How does this apply to Christians with non-Christian parents? My father, who had left the family before I was born, isn't really part of any religion; my college girlfriend's entire family were Buddhists and took a very dim view of her conversion to Christianity. Should I have left the entire relationship up to non-Christians? If yes, why should we assume that they are well equipped to advise? And if no, then where do we draw the line for 'acceptable' parents to give advice?
4. Returning to the idea of church oversight, how does this apply to a Christian who dates (or courts, etc) a girl who attends a different church? This is more-or-less mandatory for me since I'm between generations at my church; I'm 28 and most all unmarried women were either in their 40s or were still teenagers. Where does that leave me? I don't think it's appropriate to leave one's church simply to find more eligible bachelors or bachelorettes, but if I go elsewhere, I am apparently outside proper 'authority'.
5. I'm also troubled by the implication that dating is inherently 'deceiving' or 'misleading'. Obviously it's possible for humans, fallen creatures that we are, to approach it in bad faith -- but that does not mean the enterprise itself is corrupt. I don't understand why it should be inherently wrong for two people to say 'We are too young to marry, but we'd like to have a special relationship where we are emotionally close.' (Again, before you decry emotional intimacy before marriage: where is the actual Scripture?)
6. In response to the original author's last question ("If you disagree... ask yourself why"), I did ask myself why. The first five points pretty much sum it up: why add these difficult, legalistic rules when the argument from Scripture is far from convincing?
24. Chris Krycho said the following at 8:05 PM on Dec 1:
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I think the point you're missing is that the call is to purity -- and purity is not merely physical. Purity is physical, but it is just as much mental, and it just as much emotional. To borrow your argument, where is the Biblical command not to have sex before marriage? You will not find it explicitly anywhere in the Scripture. We can, however, infer certain things from what Scripture does say on the matter. We infer that Because God intended our sexuality to be contained in the context of marriage, that we then ought to refrain from it before marriage.
Likewise, we see that we have a responsibility to guard emotional intimacy. There can be no intimacy unless there is corresponding commitment -- at least, no level of intimacy that is healthy. We are defrauding one another if we enter into intimacy -- physically, emotionally, etc. -- without a commitment corresponding to the level of intimacy at which we are engaging one another. We are explicitly commanded not to defraud one another, and I see no way in which having a degree of emotional intimacy comparable to that which one would have inside marriage with a person outside marriage is not defrauding someone.
I'll put it this way: any intimacy that would not be permissible between a married person and a person they are not married to also ought not be permissible between any unmarried people. The principle is clear: if something is to be reserved for marriage, then it is to be reserved for marriage regardless of the timing and context. If we would frown at a married man for kissing a woman not his wife -- and we must ask ourselves why we would, answering that it is because she is not his and he not hers, and thus they are defrauding each other and someone else -- then we ought likewise to frown at any man kissing a woman not his wife. If I am seeing a woman, she is still not mine and I am not hers -- until we are married. I thus cannot, in good conscience, take from her what rightfully does not belong to me as of yet. This is not legalism, but rather applying the whole of God's word as faithfully as we are able.
This is radical. I see that, because I have come to a much stronger conclusion regarding these things in the process of writing this than I originally intended to come to -- but I have followed where the dictates of Scripture and reason have led.
In terms of spiritual oversight, I think there is an inherent flaw in any vision that chooses to dismiss spiritual oversight. Croft himself acknowledges that this will look different for different people -- as do Harris and most other authors I've read advocating a "courtship" mentality. I would comment that there is no reason your personal spiritual partners and mentors cannot fulfill that role, even if she goes to another church. (And if you have none, then there is a serious problem.) The same for her. And ultimately, you should be in a position, I think, to choose for one or the other of you to move churches and be attending the same church: if you cannot agree on that before marriage you certainly will have a challenge after marriage. And your third point is very much a straw man: clearly there are situations where parental oversight is not possible, and Croft directly acknowledged this in his article, as have others in these responses.
In terms of the reasoning why we ought to be under spiritual authority - and why we ought to ask permission of her father -- this too is relatively clear from Scripture. First, we know that we are not to be in a position of not being under any spiritual authority; to the contrary we are always to be under authority. Second, the Biblical understanding is that a woman is under the headship of her father until she moves to be under the headship of her husband. It is only right, then, that a man interested in pursuing a woman ought to respectfully pursue the guidance and involvement of her father.
To ask a very practical question: given the opportunity for Godly guidance, prayer support, and the wisdom of those who have walked down this road before, why would anyone not take it up immediately? Whether that guidance be from a father, or from a pastor or elder, guidance is available. The only reason I can think of that would lead anyone to reject that is rebellion against spiritual guidance and authority. Please enlighten me as to other possible reasons to reject that if it's available, because I can't think of any! (Clarification: I mean that; this is not sarcasm but an honest request.)
25. Mary Beth said the following at 9:18 PM on Dec 1:
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I just wanted to say that I'm looking forward to this article series on Boundless. I'm still just a freshman in highschool, actually, so some of what's written on Boundless doesn't really apply to my life yet. But I still enjoy most of what's on here.
In my youth group, most of the girls and guys are throwing themselves into relationships with other members of the opposite sex and that saddens me. Fifteen and sixteen year olds should be having fun, non-romantic friendships with guys and girls; not flirting with each other and trying to snag a boyfriend/girlfriend. Not to sound judgemental of my friends, just to say that I don't want them to get hurt. Last night I called one of my guy friends and we talked for almost an hour about random stuff that had nothing boyfriend-girlfriend-ish about it. I'd like to see other teenagers with that kind of relationship.
Personally, when I am older and the time is right, I am very dedicated to following what would be a "courtship" type of dating relationship, although, I hate to use that term because it has legalistic connotations to many people (even me). I want to have my parents' involvement and support, but mostly I want the Lord to be in control of my love life. Some people might say I am starting my life out going down a legalistic path, but I've seen the mistakes of others and I don't want to throw myself away on silly emotional flings.
Anyways, that ramble was just to emphasize what I started out with: I'm looking forward to this article series. :)
26. Christine said the following at 11:05 PM on Dec 1:
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I guess I would like to know how this oversight would differ from accountability in the grand scheme of things. I don't have any male figure that I would feel comfortable sending a guy to ask for permission to date me. If I was living at home, I'd be glad to have my dad in that role, but I'm not and I'm not close to my pastor or to any of the men in my church, so this just seems a bit weird for my personal situation.
Being single and in my mid-twenties, I do want marriage and I want my path to marriage to be as God-honoring as humanly possible. However, I don't want to get stuck in some ivory tower in the process.
27. Mike Theemling said the following at 11:18 PM on Dec 1:
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After re-reading the essay (several times) and the comments here (I believe this is the current record holder) I am still puzzled at how this "Biblical dating" is supposed to actually work out in practice.
Here is my line of thinking of how I infer the methodology (from a guy's perspective):
1. Be a part of a church body
2. Observe the group you are a part of for potential mates
3. Get to know her in the group setting and let her do the same for you
4. When ready, approach the father/family/etc. indicating your interest
5. Go through the courtship process
6. Get married
I have a problem with step #3. If according to Scott Croft's advice we aren't to go on "1-on-1" dates until we hit step 5, how does one get to know the other person well enough in order to make the decision? Ted said that the request should not come from someone you "casually know". Ok, fine. So how do you get to know someone beyond "casually" unless you spend some 1-on-1 time with them? Ask her friends? Ask her family? Read her diary? Furthermore, you almost run into a contradiction with what Scott Croft said about getting "emotionally involved" with someone before courting them. I'm not supposed to spend 1-on-1 time with a girl, not supposed to have any emotional attachment, yet somehow I'm supposed to be able to make a conscious decision based upon testimony of those around her and other factors such as displays of godly characteristics. Is this how it's supposed to work?
Finally, to address those who may believe that guys like myself aren't "man enough" to take risks I will say that I have in my opinion taken a lot of risks. I've asked multiple girls out both in my singles group and from others that I've known in town...and I've been turned down by all of them. Most make up a lame excuse rather than giving a polite "No, thank you" (perpetual busyness, "not ready" for a relationship right now, ad naseum). I tried online and that didn't work out either (After over 20 customized messages to different ladies, I got ignored completely by 18, 1 who replied simply, "I got your E-mail", and only 1 real response). I don't know WHY I get rejected; they don't tell me and I don't believe it's appropriate to ask.
And so for myself I'm wondering, "If I were to ask these girls for courtship instead, what evidence is there that I'd be any more (un-)successful than I am now?" If I were to follow Ted's advice and not "waste my time" with women who don't want to be intentional with a relationship or heed advice from family/mentors, I wonder how many women would be left to pursue? I could take a poll I suppose asking all women in my singles group if they are intentional in their relationships but I doubt that would win me any brownie points.
Honestly, I'm almost tempted to have our group sponsor either Ted or Scott to come speak on the topic and to hear my peer groups' response. I wonder if indeed my suspicions about them (esp the women) are correct or not. Perhaps readers/posters here could take the article and message back to their prospective groups and find out. I'd be very curious to see the overall reaction.
28. Chris Krycho said the following at 11:35 PM on Dec 1:
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Mike - I have to say that you have some valid points there. I too have run into rejection, though not necessarily on the scale you have (I'll be praying for God to lead you in wisdom and bring that woman along for you, brother!). I think I will take this back to my group and see what we get as a reaction. I think that your most valid point, though, is about the women around you. In the area I'm in, I see a lot of girls willing to be intentional - far more than is typical, I suspect. So the guys who are looking to be intentional are in good shape. But I still see a lot of girls wanting to play at it, even if they'd never put it that way. There are also a lot of unrealistic expectations of guys that I've seen. Right now our church culture has unfortunately bought into some of the culture at large's message of "men=bad, women=good." We forget that we're all equally sinful, and women are just as likely to be messing up the dating/courtship/whatever you want to call it scene as men are. And honestly, I'd like to see a broader acknowledgment of that in the church - I think Boundless has done fairly well at dealing with it in recent months (~6) but before that, it was the same thing.
29. Randy 'Vic' Taylor said the following at 4:40 AM on Dec 2:
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I have to echo the dissenters here. I have nothing against courtship. If the method sounds effective to you and especially if your church is lead by proponents of it (like Ted and his wife going to Josh Harris' church) go for it. But to call it 'Biblical Dating' is semi-laughable and semi-offensive.
By giving it such a name, it DOES suggest that other methods are unbiblical. Other commenters have already covered the use of verses that could easily be applied to non-courtship models so I won't expound.
Chris Krycho said in his comment, "It is clear that God has a right way and a wrong way for us to do things." Buying a house is the largest purchase most people make in their lifetimes. Is there a Biblical House-buying method? A specific way God wants us to buy a house? Some could say buying a house, car, or anything else on credit is unbiblical as the Bible says "the borrower is slave to the lender." Do the advocates of Biblical Dating have mortgages or car payments? I don't believe there were 30 year mortgages around back in the days of Boaz and Ruth, does that make mortgages unbiblical and ungodly? Certainly courtship is counter-cultural as Ted stated, but so is paying cash for your first home. Even 'debt-is-dumb' Christian financial guru Dave Ramsey doesn't say paying cash for your home is a 'Biblical model'.
I'm actually surprised no one has said that a more accurate model of 'Biblical Dating' wouldn't have let Ted choose Ashleigh, but would've excluded Ted from the decision-making and left it up to their parents or tribe elders to make him a match based on compatibilities, family land interests, or social standing.
I read a dating book recently that summed it up best, if you want a true Biblical model of dating, there better be a dowry, land, or oxen exchanged when your parents arrange it for you.
Once again, I know a number of Christian couples that followed some sort of courtship model and are happily married. Likewise, I know even more that dated in a more modern way and are equally as happy. But to call one method Biblical when the 'rules' of courtship aren't found in the verses quoted is at best inaccurate and at worst arrogant.
Honestly, I'm surprised how aggressive the editor of Boundless (Ted) and his wife are in pounding the commenters here after Ted posted a seemingly innocuous request of:
"I'd be interested in hearing what our readers think of the principles the author presents, and the biblical support and logic he employs to drive his argument."
And following this request, dissenters are blasted with, "be a man"..."it's not that difficult a concept to grasp"...if you're not for this model you're full of "fear".
Lastly, the false logic of "I think that those who haven't given biblical dating a chance, don't have the authority to call it legalistic and rigid without experiencing it themselves" is silly. Someone can't say, "Boy, that sounds rigid and I don't think that would work for me"?
IMHO, in the future, don't ask for people's opinions if you don't believe they have the authority to disagree or say that they don't think it would work in their situation. We're glad courtship worked for you and posting the multitude of Mahaney, Harris, Croft articles on Boundless coming from the same perspective obviously shows that is the prevailing perspective of Boundless, its editor, and his past church families. But you might want to consider that you're not talking about demonstratable biblical absolutes here, and you might want to consider that courtship isn't for everyone (or decreed by God.)
Vic
30. Lis said the following at 5:04 AM on Dec 2:
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I appreciate what Scott Croft and others at Boundless have had to say about Biblical principles for relationships. It's a volatile and challenging subject, but of course God's way for any endeavor includes seeking Him, faith in Him, unselfishness, accountability, and risk.
I'd just like to encourage my fellow readers that the God who created millions of different species of flowers, trees, animals and more - when He could have made one of each - is not going to saddle you with a cookie-cutter romance. If you'd like encouragement that following Biblical principles still leaves lots of room for individuality, feel free to check out the courtship story archive at http://www.ylcf.org. Better yet, start asking your friends and family to tell your their stories.
I happen to come from a long history of courtships, and guess what? The old-fashioned way works!
Except when it doesn't. Life is life, after all, and people apply Biblical principles with varying levels of wisdom. When we can, let's learn from others' mistakes.
Yes, our friends at Boundless are telling us loud and clear to "do something" about marriage. But that something will look as different as it does when we heed the call to "go out and do something for God."
I used to think that my courtship would look just like my parent's, who grew up together and got married at 21 and 22. But here I am, 29, still unmarried...and surer than ever of God's faithfulness. At my age, my parents had to trust God to provide for three kids. At my age, I have to trust God to lead me into the next stage of life.
I'm sure we can get a lot of inspiration and admonition from the stories and advice of others, including those here at Boundless. But I'm also sure they'd agree that in the end I have to seek God for what His principles will look like in my story.
And that's where our stories are all the same. We all run to the Holy Spirit with the same question, "What do you want me to do? If we have open hearts, He will be sure to answer...and His answer is sure to require the same sort of trust, obedience, and risk, and outrageous love that He is teaching us in other areas of our lives - right now.
31. Ruth said the following at 8:56 AM on Dec 2:
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I am so thankful to the Boundless team for bringing up this topic.
I just had a comment on the scriptural guidance for being emotionally intimate before marriage. First, there is Proverbs 4:23 which says, "Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life."
There is also a book which touches on this particular subject called Emotional Purity: An Affair of the Heart by Heather Arnel Paulsen. In it, she brings up Thessalonians 4:3-5(NIV) and has this to say: "We see in verse 4 that God calls us to sanctification and honor. Sanctification is the act of purifying oneself, holding one's 'vessel' in honor, respecting oneself. When one crosses lines into deep emotional and spiritual connections, one takes pieces of another's emotional and spiritual purity that need to be saved for that person's marriage partner. When you give your heart away, you are giving what belongs to your future mate. Will you be able to present yourself whole-hearted at the wedding altar or have you left pieces of it with others?"
I think these two verses give plenty of scriptural evidence for not becoming emotionally intimate before marriage. Everyone's experience is going to be different, but I do belive there are "biblical absolutes" that we are instructed to follow. I think we just have to keep remembering that in God's plan, it's not about what you want, it's about what is right for you.
32. Ted Slater said the following at 11:04 AM on Dec 2:
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Let's continue this conversation at the new biblical dating thread! Here's the link: http://www.boundlessline.org/2006/12/biblical_dating.html